0:10

Welcome to the eighth episode of PortfolioCast. Today we're

0:11

speaking with Edward Goodchild,

0:15

at his heart, Ed is an

0:15

enthusiastic innovator, and a

0:19

perennial entrepreneur. On top

0:19

of building the Zendht venture

0:24

studio, he's an independent

0:24

advisor, board chair, forum

0:27

moderator, and charity trustee.

0:27

Welcome, Edward.

0:31

Thank you very much indeed for having me.

0:33

No problem.

0:33

So let's get started. Your love

0:37

for innovation is a clear driver

0:37

in the work that you do with

0:41

Zendt.. Where was that passion

0:41

first formulated?

0:45

Well, it's interesting, you should ask because I think if you'd asked

0:46

either my parents, or my school

0:50

masters, or indeed, my friends,

0:50

when I was in my 20s, you would

0:54

have never marked me down for

0:54

doing any of this. I have to

0:57

give away an age now, I'm now in

0:57

my mid 50s. It started when

1:00

really, it was probably a bit of

1:00

a midlife crisis in my mid 40s.

1:05

And I've been an advisor for a

1:05

long time. And the bit that I

1:09

found really interesting about

1:09

the advice was, here are the

1:12

life stories of the people that

1:12

I was advising private clients,

1:15

they were all entrepreneurs,

1:15

they'd all typically started

1:18

with zero and have made a

1:18

significant amount of capital.

1:21

And I started thinking, well, if

1:21

they can do it, I've got these

1:25

sort of connections and

1:25

advantages, well, then surely I

1:27

can do it. So that's what I did.

1:30

Fantastic. I mean, it's interesting that you say, going back towards

1:32

school, you definitely wouldn't

1:35

have been seen to do these sorts

1:35

of things. But you've definitely

1:38

got a clear appetite for

1:38

learning. You mentioned that you

1:40

have been advisor, you're a

1:40

chartered wealth manager, you've

1:43

got your CISI fellowship. And

1:43

most recently, you've just this

1:47

year gained your Chartered

1:47

Institute of Marketing

1:49

fellowship. So congratulations

1:49

on that. How has all of these

1:53

different educational avenues

1:53

helped you build your portfolio

1:57

career as it stands today?

1:59

The reason it

1:59

worked, or the reason I pursued

2:01

these different channels, is

2:01

it's only relatively recently -

2:04

in fact having a portfolio

2:04

actually finally gives it some

2:07

sort of overall coherence.

2:07

Because before I've done a whole

2:10

series of different jobs in lots

2:10

of different arenas, and

2:13

therefore I've sought to be

2:13

qualified in whatever I've been

2:16

doing. And it's now that I knit

2:16

it all together, I call it my

2:19

venture studio, because I've got a number of different businesses, but you could

2:21

equally describe it as a

2:24

portfolio of different

2:24

interests. And it's being able

2:27

to be open minded to picking out

2:27

new knowledge about lots of

2:32

different things. And I make a

2:32

comment, lots of times about

2:35

reach and range and scope and

2:35

opportunity. But really, it's

2:38

about looking up and out. And

2:38

education, just part of it, I

2:42

suppose I'm endlessly curious.

2:42

and I just sort of kind of

2:46

follow things or get interested

2:46

in things or just develop

2:50

passions about things.

2:51

I think

2:51

that's one of the biggest traits

2:54

of portfolio professionals is,

2:54

is curiosity. And it's

2:57

interesting that there can be

2:57

lots of fear in the different

3:02

types of work that you're going

3:02

to be taking on, all the

3:05

challenges, etc. But actually,

3:05

there's not that fear of finding

3:08

something out for the first time

3:08

or trying something for the

3:11

first time and seeing what

3:11

happens. That curiosity

3:14

definitely drives us, doesn't it?

3:16

It does. I mean a

3:16

lot to promote yourself, or to

3:19

get somebody to pay you to do

3:19

something, you need to have

3:22

sufficient information, you need

3:22

to have sufficient experience,

3:25

which is why probably coming at

3:25

it a bit later in life rather

3:29

than kind of straight out of uni

3:29

probably makes it easier. But

3:32

people come to ask your advice

3:32

because they don't know the

3:35

answer. So you clearly need to

3:35

know more than they do. Because

3:39

otherwise, why would they listen

3:39

to you or pay you, but it

3:42

doesn't mean you need to know

3:42

absolutely everything about

3:45

everything. And I think it's the

3:45

fear of thinking there are gaps

3:49

in your knowledge that hold

3:49

people back from doing multiple

3:52

things or taking the big brave

3:52

step. I think it was Branson who

3:56

said if your plans or your ideas

3:56

don't frighten you, then they're

4:00

not big enough. I have a little

4:00

bit of nervous anticipation. I

4:04

think one of the

4:04

characteristics, and I know that

4:07

myself, you have to be somebody

4:07

who sort of permanently

4:10

fidgeting you're always after

4:10

new things or kind of wanting to

4:13

look around the corner or look

4:13

over the wall. You have to be a

4:16

slightly kind of nosy about life

4:16

in general.

4:19

Yeah, absolutely. It's having the curiosity about the shiny new

4:21

things and the focus to actually

4:25

complete something with them.

4:27

Yeah, it's interesting because somebody else was on a talk I was

4:28

listening to and said, Well, of

4:31

course I did is this sort of the

4:31

trope that comes out when

4:35

everybody's got ideas? It's all

4:35

about delivery. Yes, it is about

4:38

delivery, because otherwise it's

4:38

not a business. It's just a is a

4:41

book of ideas. But I actually

4:41

don't think that everybody is

4:45

full of ideas, but like lots of

4:45

things, I think you can learn to

4:49

have ideas. I don't think it's

4:49

naturally there's sort of nature

4:53

or nurture. I don't think it's

4:53

that some people just have an

4:56

innate right to have the ideas

4:56

and other people don't. I think

5:00

you can nurture and encourage it

5:00

and learn the behaviours and you

5:03

hang out with the right people.

5:03

You go look for it in the right

5:06

places. And then guess what? If

5:06

you're open minded to it, then

5:10

you begin to run with it.

5:12

Yeah,

5:12

absolutely. And you explain how

5:14

you work with all your multiple

5:14

roles of keeping your eyes and

5:17

ears open and alert to the world

5:17

at large, heads up, not heads

5:21

down. I really love that phrase.

5:21

We often talk about balance in

5:27

these interviews. But what I'd

5:27

really love to know more about

5:29

is how you make the connection

5:29

between all the things that you

5:33

do, and how that benefits you

5:33

and the people that you're

5:36

working with, and others?

5:38

The starting point

5:38

is I push back against this

5:41

whole idea of about work/life

5:41

balance. The way that I look out

5:45

the window, as it were, is

5:45

errr.. I've got a life.

5:48

Yeah.

5:49

And life is more

5:49

interesting is got some

5:52

complexity, or it's got some

5:52

narrative around it, or it's got

5:56

some extra interest rather than

5:56

being kind of monolithic, just

6:00

doing one thing.

6:01

Hmm.

6:01

I'm a bit of a

6:01

sucker for joining things. And

6:04

that's probably because I, I've

6:04

never been a sportsman. So the

6:07

whole kind of go play golf, go

6:07

play rugby, go play cricket, go

6:11

play anything else, has never

6:11

been part of. I've got a

6:14

background of joining membership

6:14

organisations and wanted to be

6:17

kind of an enthusiast about

6:17

things. And then if you if you

6:20

go off and do that, and you're

6:20

open minded, you meet other

6:23

people doing other things, and

6:23

then how they relate, I suppose

6:28

the way that they glue it

6:28

together. And it's always a bit

6:31

imperfect. There's no, this sort

6:31

of mosaic, there are very few

6:35

hard lines. There are lots of

6:35

dotted lines and connections.

6:39

The starting point, and as well

6:39

as its light values route.

6:44

Life's pretty good if you go

6:44

around being helpful and broadly

6:47

speaking kind to people. And if

6:47

you are broadly speaking kind,

6:51

so somebody needs a helping

6:51

hand, you help them, then you

6:54

suddenly find that actually

6:54

other people help you. I

6:58

actually view this as a safety

6:58

net. There's a whole bunch of

7:01

comments about integrity is how

7:01

somebody behaves when nobody

7:04

else is looking. But actually,

7:04

if you go around and try and

7:06

just be a reasonable human

7:06

being, it's amazing how many

7:09

other people will then treat you

7:09

that way. But then he is

7:11

actually really the glue that

7:11

sticks it together. So you read

7:15

I don't know. Let's make it as a

7:15

digital example. Somebody pops

7:18

up something on LinkedIn and

7:18

says, Does anybody know somebody

7:22

somewhere? Either you do know

7:22

somebody, or just have a scroll

7:25

around? I did it earlier on the

7:25

week, scrolling around for that

7:29

company... Do you know somebody

7:29

who's a second or third

7:32

connection. Ting their name in,

7:32

it costs you nothing, you try to

7:35

help somebody else, you create

7:35

goodwill, guess what, he

7:38

suddenly comes back x days later

7:38

and off it... And that's what

7:41

makes the world go round.

7:42

I am a huge

7:42

believer in paying it forward

7:45

and having that open mindedness

7:45

of going into conversations not

7:48

about what can I get from this,

7:48

but what can I give...

7:51

It is also an

7:51

added part, if you're on the

7:55

business founder route, is that

7:55

tends to be fairly self centric,

8:00

because it's your drive, it's

8:00

your determination, you

8:04

ultimately are the decision

8:04

maker, it all ends up at one

8:07

desk, which is do we or don't

8:07

we. That's a quite an insular

8:10

outcome. I spend a bit of time

8:10

as a peacetime soldier, so

8:14

nothing dangerous, but this idea

8:14

of collegiate responsibility and

8:20

obligation/responsibility being

8:20

the two sides of the same coin.

8:23

So if you end up with this sort

8:23

of potential isolation, then I

8:27

like doing the pro bono things

8:27

because it's teamwork. And as I

8:32

just said, I don't do teamsport

8:32

never been able to catch a ball

8:35

in my life. And therefore it's a

8:35

it's a proxy for that. Because

8:39

if you sit on a on a charity

8:39

board, for example, you're one

8:43

amongst many, rather than being

8:43

the leader who has to make the

8:46

final decision and the balance

8:46

of the two. I think it's a

8:50

pleasant way to live your life

8:50

as a whole tonne of stuff out of

8:53

the moment, obviously about

8:53

mental well being and where

8:57

where's my place in society? And

8:57

what do I do and all I ever do

9:00

is work. It just gives a little

9:00

bit of balance to our lives I

9:03

suppose.

9:04

It does always end up coming around that way, doesn't it? There's many

9:05

entrepreneurial professionals

9:09

out there. We're definitely

9:09

seeing them come out of the

9:11

woodwork even more now so that

9:11

people are facing furlough or

9:16

redundancy etc. And who are

9:16

looking to a portfolio career as

9:20

a springboard into starting

9:20

their own businesses. What

9:24

advice would you give to

9:24

somebody who is on this path?

9:27

I do have three

9:27

bits of advice. The first one is

9:29

in one's own headspace. So I

9:29

talked about it a few moments

9:34

ago about this sort of kind of

9:34

isolation factor. I've worked in

9:37

large organisations and one of

9:37

the really thing that is

9:40

difficult then when you step off

9:40

on your own is, you're on your

9:42

own. And you kind of think that

9:42

you were doing - you were the

9:46

leader in it, and suddenly - No,

9:46

you learn all sorts of new

9:49

skills like how does your router

9:49

work? How did all your IT work?

9:53

Telephony? How do you set up

9:53

email accounts? All of this sort

9:56

of kind of hits as a wash? So

9:56

the advice there is you want to

10:00

create, pretty quickly, a little

10:00

black book of technical people

10:03

who can help you get stuff done. The second one is a recognition

10:04

again in headspace, that nobody

10:09

really cares what you've done

10:09

before. So you need to develop

10:12

your own narrative, because

10:12

that's what people will

10:15

remember. You want people to be

10:15

talking about you, so you better

10:18

set your own story. Because

10:18

otherwise, it's just a sort of

10:22

kind of random walk in the park.

10:22

I set up my first business when

10:25

I was made redundant. So I'm

10:25

sitting nicely in a house and

10:29

two kids in school. And yeah,

10:29

now I'm just sitting looking at

10:32

a box of possessions. I didn't

10:32

see it coming, by the way. So

10:35

that changes your risk appetite,

10:35

because you now have the scope

10:40

of starting something out. And I

10:40

was fortunate that was a

10:43

redundancy payment. So that

10:43

gives you a bit of money to

10:45

start with, that takes off the

10:45

immediate pressure, but I was

10:48

always kind of a bit embarrassed

10:48

about that. And then you realise

10:53

after a few years that lots of

10:53

lots and lots of people who've

10:55

set up companies quite often the

10:55

starting point is facing

10:59

redundancy, and people who've

10:59

gone on to set up really

11:02

successful big companies are

11:02

quite open about it, which is

11:05

part of the reason I'm now talking about it. The follow on, the next part is,

11:07

I was always under the

11:11

impression you needed to have a

11:11

really detailed business plan,

11:15

you needed to have everything

11:15

topped and tailed, and

11:17

everything to the state of

11:17

perfection. Back to an old

11:20

military adage of the first

11:20

casualty of war is the plan. I

11:23

think, actually, this sort of

11:23

agile working, you need to have

11:25

a sense of direction and what

11:25

you want to try and achieve and

11:29

then break it down into the

11:29

various steps to try and get

11:31

there. But you need it to be

11:31

kind of fluid. Because pandemics

11:36

certainly prove this, life just

11:36

throws a whole tonne of

11:39

curveballs at you, even when the

11:39

world's being well behaved. And

11:44

actually probably the

11:44

differentiator of, of a

11:47

successful entrepreneur, or

11:47

somebody with a portfolio career

11:51

is the ability to be able to

11:51

cope with that uncertainty. One

11:56

of the things I've said a lot to

11:56

people, and it applies to me is,

11:59

you're never going to have a day

11:59

when your jobs list, your task

12:03

lists, you're going to have

12:03

ticked everything off. So if

12:06

your criteria for being able to

12:06

walk away from your desk, have a

12:10

good night's sleep, go out for

12:10

supper, all of these things is

12:13

that I've got a completely clear

12:13

desk, you'll be chained to your

12:17

desk for perpetuity and never

12:17

get away.

12:19

Yeah,

12:19

And therefore the

12:19

skill, which often isn't the

12:22

case in very large

12:22

organisations, it's been pretty

12:25

brutal about prioritising. This

12:25

absolutely has to be done, right

12:30

better do that. Tax return? Yes.

12:30

I've been nice to talk and you

12:35

have to permanently sift about

12:35

what really needs to be done.

12:39

But you can only know what

12:39

really needs to be done if you

12:42

have a very, very clear

12:42

identity, where you want to be.

12:46

And the struggle, and I think

12:46

The Portfolio Collective has

12:49

been really cool about this is

12:49

helping people work out what

12:52

their goal should be.

12:54

Yeah.

12:54

Because otherwise, it's just a bit of a random walk. And it might work and it

12:56

might not but I'm a bit too much

12:59

of a control freak. Like to

12:59

know. It's a bit like Sat Nav

13:03

you don't you have a stab in the

13:03

postcode, you may get lost on

13:06

the way and you change the route

13:06

and all the other stuff. But if

13:08

you don't have this clear

13:08

vision, then it's hard.

13:11

Yeah, knowing the B, where you're going towards is definitely a

13:12

helpful starting place. As you

13:16

say it's a big part of what we

13:16

do. And it's a big part of how

13:19

we start our Catapult course,

13:19

for example, just getting people

13:21

to really focus and often people

13:21

haven't taken the time to do

13:25

that. And it's might be because

13:25

they haven't been allowed the

13:28

time to do it. How have you

13:28

approached starting new

13:32

businesses? You've started many,

13:32

and you continue to work with

13:36

many, how do you go about

13:36

thinking, right? Okay, is this a

13:39

good idea or a bad idea?

13:41

Well, I have a

13:41

very simple process, because

13:43

that's the sort of way I work.

13:43

So the first one is, you just

13:46

have to have the idea. You don't

13:46

need to have solved sort of kind

13:49

of nuclear fusion with this, it

13:49

is just an idea. Then I normally

13:53

write a what I would refer to as

13:53

a scoping paper. So get some

13:57

thoughts down on paper, normally

13:57

a couple of sides of A4, bash it

14:02

out. Don't worry too much about

14:02

syntax, just bash it out, and

14:06

then move it around, then I

14:06

normally try and literally

14:10

sketch it out as a picture.

14:10

Probably started because my kids

14:14

are a bit older, so they've all

14:14

done a levels and stuff, but a

14:17

sort of kind of Mind Map thing.

14:17

It's a doodle basically. Because

14:19

you're trying to work out how

14:19

will the different bits hold on

14:22

together? Well, if I do this, I

14:22

could do that. Or there's a

14:24

dotted line. Oh, I know some of

14:24

you does that. So you're

14:27

beginning to create a kind of an

14:27

ecosystem around it. Then

14:32

typically I go look for people

14:32

who can help me. They might be

14:36

employees, they might be

14:36

collaborators, they might be

14:40

freelancers, don't really mind,

14:40

actually, I'm quite neutral. And

14:44

that's normally done on a basic

14:44

skills matrix. I know where I

14:47

want to go, these are the skills

14:47

I need. These are things I

14:50

definitely don't know about.

14:50

It's a bit of self awareness

14:53

about, no no no, there's no

14:53

chance I could do those, right.

14:55

I need to find somebody who's

14:55

got some of these skills, or

14:58

then there's what I could do I

14:58

really be much more efficient if

15:01

somebody else did it. So sort of

15:01

comparative economics 101. I

15:04

mean, you do the top level on

15:04

boards about board members and

15:07

the skills needed and put little

15:07

X's in? Well, you do the same in

15:10

your own in your own head. Then

15:10

you've got to try and scoop

15:13

those people up to your to your

15:13

idea. So that's your first

15:17

pitch. Because you've all the

15:17

people you will approach go

15:20

"nah", well, then you need to go

15:20

back at the office, or the back

15:24

bedroom, scratch your head and

15:24

think, Well, okay, maybe it

15:26

wasn't quite so cool, but that

15:26

there's an iterative process.

15:29

But as long as I don't laugh you

15:29

out completely, then there's

15:32

normally the part about trying

15:32

to find some money, I mean,

15:36

basically got two options, your

15:36

own back pocket or somebody

15:38

else's back pocket. There's

15:38

always a bit of tension about

15:43

that. And of course, the amount

15:43

of money that you have then

15:46

determines the path that you can

15:46

take, and 10,000 different

15:50

models of doing that. I have

15:50

generally gone the bootstrapping

15:55

model, because I've been

15:55

enthusiastic about what I want

15:57

to do. And I'd rather just get

15:57

on with it. Because the really

16:00

ugly side of fundraising is you

16:00

go and talk to 100 people, and

16:03

95 of those people will tell

16:03

you, you're wrong. misplaced,

16:07

somebody else is doing it.

16:07

Because you got to find the five

16:09

that will back you, let's say

16:09

and if you don't really, really

16:12

can do it boot strategy. My

16:12

advice is do it because you

16:15

don't get diluted. You don't

16:15

have the problem of tonnes of

16:19

people telling your idea's

16:19

rubbish. Now there's a

16:21

difference between genuine

16:21

feedback from people who want to

16:25

engage with you. When you're out

16:25

being the supplicant wanting

16:28

money, it gets really soul

16:28

destroying people's own

16:30

narrative. So if you can avoid

16:30

just going and seeing them at

16:33

all, then my advice is just

16:33

skirt around it try and work out

16:37

a different way.

16:39

Yeah,

16:39

It's normally talked about that you go and talk to friends and family. I

16:41

actually think that's the

16:43

hardest people to talk to

16:45

You've got

16:45

people who are completely

16:47

unbiased or bias in a completely

16:47

different way.

16:51

But also, they

16:51

tend to be less hesitant about

16:54

giving you full feedback. And

16:54

then of course, you got the

16:58

idea. You've scoped it out,

16:58

you've got the team, and then

17:00

you need to start making it happen.

17:02

Yeah, obviously, you've run businesses, but also you have

17:03

roles within other

17:05

organisations, etc. And

17:05

particularly being a board

17:08

member of several different

17:08

companies. We've talked about

17:11

the fact that that allows you to

17:11

have some give back, some play

17:15

within the roles, a slightly

17:15

different role to everything

17:18

landing on your plate, being

17:18

part of a team, but what advice

17:20

would you give to people who are

17:20

looking to expand their

17:24

experience and getting involved

17:24

with other companies?

17:26

Give it a go. It's

17:26

hard, though, because generally

17:30

is much more straightforward to

17:30

pick up pro bono, what you find

17:34

is you end up being really,

17:34

really busy, and you got no

17:36

income.

17:37

Yeah,

17:37

And depending on your personal circumstances, that's either a good thing or a

17:39

bad thing, which is part of the

17:41

reason that trustee board, for

17:41

example, tend to be people or

17:45

retired because the money is

17:45

kinda sorted. If, on the other

17:48

hand, you're still working, then

17:48

there's a question to my time

17:52

that I like to give back in pro

17:52

bono, philanthropy, all the rest

17:56

of it. By the way, the

17:56

philanthropy part is time and

17:58

effort is not to do with money,

17:58

but it's trying to facilitate

18:01

and help and guide and judge.

18:01

There's a part of which is in

18:04

sort of a family, and pleasure

18:04

and life, then there's new

18:07

business and business

18:07

activities, things that I've

18:10

generated, and then there's

18:10

always a sort of the 10% is

18:13

unallocated because you need to

18:13

have a float if you want to do

18:15

other things. And I generally

18:15

rule of thumb work on the

18:19

premise. If I'm taking a new

18:19

thing in one of those

18:22

categories, then normally,

18:22

you've got to give up one. Now I

18:26

then tend to wrap that in good

18:26

governance and say, Well, if I'm

18:30

going to take an appointment for

18:30

something, yeah, three years,

18:33

maybe with the two year

18:33

extension. I've got into trouble

18:36

on a couple of different ways.

18:36

Because I say, Look, I'll take

18:39

it if there's a clear way that I

18:39

can find my replacement. Or

18:43

actually what I jokingly say is

18:43

after about four years, you need

18:46

to sack me, because otherwise it

18:46

becomes a perpetuity that's not

18:49

good for them is not good for me.

18:51

That's a really interesting and honest way of looking at it. And also

18:52

an honest conversation to have

18:55

at the start, I guess. And not

18:55

many people are used to having

18:58

those kind of honest conversations right at the beginning, like this is what I

18:59

want to achieve out of it. And

19:03

this is my expectations. But

19:03

that's a really important

19:06

conversation to have.

19:07

I just think it's

19:07

a open transparent one. So we're

19:11

talking about clear objectives

19:11

for business, I would contend

19:14

you would have kind of broadly

19:14

the same thing for your life,

19:16

but with business is either a

19:16

small part or a large part or

19:19

whatever portion you want. But

19:19

if that general planning works

19:24

for business, well then I also

19:24

think it applies to life as

19:26

well. One of the things that I

19:26

would encourage anybody who's

19:30

stepping out from an

19:30

organisation into a portfolio

19:33

career is the real value of

19:33

mentors and coaches, my general

19:39

steer is and to pay for it,

19:39

because it's really worth it. So

19:44

I spent quite a lot of time

19:44

really pre the Zendht venture

19:48

studio idea, which is really

19:48

coalescing all the things that

19:51

I've evolved to try and give it

19:51

a coherence and structure

19:55

because they're all

19:55

interrelated. And quite often

19:57

people tell me Oh, you're doing

19:57

too many things. You can't

19:59

possibly And how does it work?

19:59

So, ultimately a bit like I was

20:02

talking about drawing out the

20:02

doodle? Well, I've now turned it

20:05

into a website so somebody can

20:05

see what I do. So hopefully that

20:08

demonstrates the coherence, and

20:08

they go Ah! Okay, I understand

20:11

what he's doing. But part of

20:11

that is having a really clear

20:14

goal. And I have a number of

20:14

sessions with a really great

20:18

coach. And I have it as my

20:18

singular objective, what I refer

20:23

to as long term financial

20:23

equilibrium, that's different

20:26

for everybody. It does come down

20:26

to a number but the number comes

20:29

down to Well, why is that number

20:29

because I need or want to

20:33

achieve these goals in order to

20:33

do that. The machinery needs to

20:37

produce that, it gives you a

20:37

timeline, it's not quite a cash

20:40

flow forecast, but it's got

20:40

elements of that. And therefore,

20:44

if that's the direction I want

20:44

to go in well, then these are

20:47

the things I need to do to have

20:47

a pretty high probability in

20:50

being able to hit it.

20:51

And that's really good advice. And I think that's certainly something that

20:53

a lot of full stage portfolio

20:56

professionals need to remind

20:56

themselves of. It's kind of

20:59

having that end goal. Most

20:59

businesses have an exit

21:02

strategy. What is your exit

21:02

strategy of your career? And

21:05

what do you want to achieve at

21:05

the end of the day, it's a

21:08

blaise way way of putting it or

21:08

a rather clinical way of putting

21:11

it maybe. But yeah, it's an

21:11

interesting thought to have an

21:14

apply to how you...

21:16

One of the pushback, again, I push back on this idea about having an exit

21:18

strategy, I suppose because I

21:21

spend 10-12 years as a portfolio

21:21

manager. So picking stock, and

21:25

building a portfolio. It's not

21:25

predicated on an exit. It's

21:29

predicated on producing

21:29

something that can continue to

21:32

create new businesses, but the

21:32

starting factor isn't selling

21:36

any of them. Now, like all

21:36

entrepreneurs, if somebody comes

21:39

around the corner and offers you

21:39

ridiculous price for something,

21:41

you think it's worth 10, and

21:41

they offer you 1000, yeah yeah

21:44

you bite their arm off! Not

21:44

withstanding that as a as a sort

21:48

of the outlier event. The way

21:48

that I constructed it is to do

21:52

build and hold, not really to

21:52

sell anything, the discipline,

21:57

the financial discipline is to

21:57

build it such that it could be

22:00

sold, because that keeps all the

22:00

ducks lined up and everything

22:02

working properly. But one of the

22:02

bits I really pushed back

22:05

against as a kind of common

22:05

prevailing culture is you have

22:09

an idea, you kind of throw lots

22:09

of money at it, it has a sudden

22:12

rise in value and you flog it

22:12

off to somebody else. No, I

22:16

really like the idea of building

22:16

a portfolio of businesses.

22:20

You know the way that you have created your businesses. It is

22:21

passion-led, it is your

22:25

interest, in a fluffier way

22:25

they're your babies, they're

22:28

part of what you...

22:29

They're not my

22:29

babies, am I angry teenagers...

22:32

don't...trust me.

22:37

I did have

22:37

in one of our previous podcasts

22:39

actually spoke to somebody who

22:39

described their children as

22:43

their startups because they

22:43

literally are behaving like

22:46

startups and that you know, they're toddlers. that you got to put a lot of work in, etc,

22:48

etc. And the analogy went on. So

22:52

it's nice to hear your business

22:52

being angry teenagers.

22:56

We talk a lot about success and

22:56

what it means. And obviously,

22:59

that's tied up in you know, what

22:59

we were just talking about in

23:02

whether we hold on to our businesses, whether we hold on to our roles that we have, or we

23:04

develop a we have cut off

23:07

periods for different things,

23:07

etc. Success is obviously very

23:12

important to what we do, what it

23:12

means how it changes as we go

23:16

through our careers. But I think

23:16

talking about failure is just as

23:21

important. And there, there is

23:21

all these stats in the world

23:25

about how such and such number

23:25

of startups fail and etc, etc.

23:28

You've got to get through the

23:28

first three years or five years

23:31

or blah, what failures have

23:31

helped you along your way? And

23:35

do you see them as failures anymore?

23:38

Oh the way is

23:38

littered with failure. I can't

23:40

tell you the number of things

23:40

I've been massively unsuccessful

23:44

in and all sorts of things you

23:44

thought were getting a bit

23:46

brighter here and and had ended

23:46

up in cul de sacs. Through

23:50

nobody's particular fault, they

23:50

just have. So, I'm just in the

23:53

process of, well it is lauched

23:53

now, deputy finances is a

23:56

property finance platform. So

23:56

the basic problem seeking to

23:59

solve, don't need to worry about

23:59

it here is a long term

24:02

persistent problem. And this is

24:02

the fifth way that I've tried to

24:06

solve it. Now this won't work.

24:06

It will work. But actually it

24:10

will work because his

24:10

predecessors couldn't, didn't,

24:14

shouldn't have worked.

24:16

Yeah.

24:16

So for example, as

24:16

we begin the marketing boards,

24:18

and somebody says, Well, why is

24:18

it like that? You go, Well,

24:21

because we tried the other ways,

24:21

and they didn't work. And

24:23

because of the lessons we

24:23

learned. So for example, this is

24:27

about bringing private capital

24:27

into the gap between what the

24:32

bank will provide to a

24:32

residential developer and what

24:35

the developers got. And there's

24:35

always a gap. So you can try it

24:38

as a fund, but then nobody wants

24:38

to do blind pool investing

24:41

because they want to be able to

24:41

touch it. So that didn't work. I

24:44

thought I could do something

24:44

called a reverse loan note in

24:47

that you raise a bond and then

24:47

you do one with lending but

24:49

anybody who puts money in wants

24:49

to know where it's going to go.

24:52

So that didn't work. I tried to

24:52

do it as simple introducer to a

24:55

finance broker, but that didn't

24:55

work because unless they

24:58

completed the deal, I didn't get

24:58

paid. So I have no control over

25:01

it. But this is this iterative

25:01

process, the risk of doing it in

25:05

startup land, is it all tends to

25:05

be a bit public. But you can't

25:09

do it all in the laboratory. You

25:09

just have to get out and go and

25:12

do it. Yeah, no, I think you

25:12

have to willingly embrace

25:16

failure. And also don't let it

25:16

do your head in, it is just

25:20

part of it. In fact, I would

25:20

contend that the measure of an

25:25

entrepreneur is how you deal

25:25

with failure.

25:29

Yeah,

25:29

Dealing with success is really easy. Happy days, that's great. It's when

25:31

it's going wobbly or it's going

25:35

wrong. Can you stay calm?

25:35

Because there is normally a way

25:40

out. Secondly, can you keep your

25:40

team together? Because

25:44

everybody's under different

25:44

pressures, there's a unifying

25:47

factor of success. But if that

25:47

tips into failure, can you keep

25:51

people with you?

25:52

Yeah,

25:52

My failure... but

25:52

the joy is, if you can, well,

25:55

then you go around the block

25:55

again. And what it does mean, in

25:58

your construct of how you put

25:58

your portfolio together is to

26:02

have some things that are really

26:02

low risk. So if you are a global

26:06

equity portfolio manager, you

26:06

have some high risk ideas have

26:10

got really high returns, but

26:10

they potentially high. But you

26:13

also have some really boring

26:13

things at the bottom, that just

26:16

sort of kind of pay the bills.

26:16

And actually, in business, you

26:19

need a bit of that as well. In

26:19

particular, following the

26:22

portfolio route. So actually a

26:22

couple of things where you do

26:25

your day's work, you get your

26:25

day's pay, that's fine. mortgage

26:28

is covered, can eat and drink,

26:28

you're okay is probably pretty,

26:33

pretty key.

26:34

Yeah. And that's why a lot of people, and certainly my experience of it

26:36

was starting off with paid PAYE

26:39

jobs and then building side

26:39

hustles. And then taking a leap

26:44

with one or many of them,

26:46

It doesn't need to

26:46

be this kind of black or white,

26:48

it can be a process. It's not

26:48

that hard and fast. Again, to go

26:53

back to something I mentioned

26:53

before, this cultural shift, if

26:56

you've had a full time job,

26:56

doesn't matter what level in

26:59

what industry, that's the thing

26:59

you've done. And that breeds a

27:02

certain degree of certainty. And

27:02

it's having the right attitude,

27:06

to be able to cope with this

27:06

fluid movement of lots of

27:10

different things happening at

27:10

the same time. I mean, one of

27:12

the things I do, I wake up

27:12

early, and I tend to go for a

27:15

walk, actually, it's lovely, no

27:15

earphones, no, no digital media,

27:19

no nothing there, just go for a

27:19

walk clear out. And it's lovely,

27:22

you just kind of organise

27:22

yourself for the day. And I do

27:25

that, basically seven days a

27:25

week, all through the year, I

27:29

would thoroughly recommend it as

27:29

kind of a zero cost ability just

27:33

to have clear thinking time. And

27:33

sometimes thinking time can be

27:37

about the square root of

27:37

nothing, it doesn't have to be

27:40

some great kind of life's

27:40

purpose. Sometimes walking along

27:43

completely neutral is also

27:43

lovely.

27:46

There's lots of science around having the best ideas when you're in

27:47

the shower or when you're

27:50

walking, because that's the time

27:50

where your brain can switch into

27:54

neutral and have some space to

27:54

think about things, to play

27:58

around with some ideas.

27:59

It's been said about children, you need to have some periods of enforced

28:01

boredom. I've got another number

28:04

of pet peeves, but one of which

28:04

is whenever he says, Oh, I'm too

28:07

busy. No, that's just a failure

28:07

to prioritise. So that's me

28:10

being pretty blunt, I block out

28:10

big chunks of time in my diary,

28:16

which is just nothing. And it's

28:16

not that I do nothing in the

28:20

nothing period, it's just, I can

28:20

determine what I do in those

28:24

periods. rather than it being

28:24

imposed upon me. I might be

28:29

working really hard, I might just go and have a cup of tea and sit on the sofa, doesn't

28:31

matter. The fact is that you're

28:33

then in control and you don't

28:33

feel like you're on this runaway

28:36

train. There's just sort of just

28:36

zooming along and everything is

28:39

running past you and you can't

28:39

focus. Gary Keller wrote a book

28:43

about blocking out time so that

28:43

you have the air pockets, you

28:47

can come up for air, you can

28:47

think, you can reflect. I was

28:50

taught years and years ago that

28:50

you wanted to write somebody a

28:53

really stinking email or a

28:53

letter, you should write it when

28:55

you're really angry! And then

28:55

print it out and leave it 24

29:00

hours, sleep on it. And then you

29:00

can correct the grammar. No, no,

29:02

but you then change the tone or

29:02

relative and again on that, and

29:06

I suppose is certainly

29:06

appropriate now is my default is

29:10

pick up the phone, I find it a

29:10

bit frustrating because the

29:13

default of the world seems to be

29:13

send an email, but it has no

29:16

nuance to it. It's so easy for

29:16

people to get the wrong end of

29:20

the stick.

29:21

I was an

29:21

oddity in my last corporate job

29:24

because I was known for turning

29:24

up of people's desks. Because if

29:27

I could walk to them, why would I send them an email?

29:29

Correct! Yes. And the other one is a really, really cool one back into the

29:31

kind of mentoring, coaching, one

29:34

is walking meetings. If you want

29:34

to have a good chat with

29:36

somebody, I did a wonderful

29:36

piece of strategy work in the

29:39

middle between the two lockdown.

29:39

We went for a walk for an hour,

29:43

just fabulous.

29:44

Up until

29:44

obviously lockdown and tiers. I

29:47

was still every few weeks,

29:47

popping into London and meeting

29:50

up with our CMO Fiona and just

29:50

having some face to face time.

29:54

In fact, actually our whole team

29:54

hadn't spent any time together

29:56

face to face because we created

29:56

this company in lockdown. Never

29:59

you know. not all of that one team had met met.

30:01

If you had told me

30:01

12 months ago that I would have

30:04

hired a number of people without

30:04

having met them. I'd have told

30:08

you, you were a lunatic! But it

30:08

worked really well!

30:12

Yeah, yeah,

30:12

there are different ways of

30:14

doing it. There are different ways of getting a feel for somebody and creating a team

30:16

that works together and works

30:18

really well. Even if you haven't

30:18

met. Obviously talking about

30:21

lockdown, it's very hard to

30:21

avoid the subject and us

30:24

continuing in the tier system,

30:24

having faced two lockdowns so

30:28

far. And we just mentioned the

30:28

fact you've hired a lot of

30:30

people remotely, but how have

30:30

you stayed connected to your

30:34

network and your colleagues,

30:34

because you have many different

30:37

sets of colleagues, obviously.

30:37

Has there been anything that

30:39

stood out to you as a really

30:39

useful tool or method for

30:42

keeping communication open, when

30:42

we can't be able to get that you

30:45

mentioned about, you know,

30:45

picking up the phone more than

30:47

email? Is it just that that's

30:47

helped you? Or is there more

30:50

that helped you?

30:51

Yeah, picking up

30:51

the phone, bit like your comment

30:53

about walking around and asking

30:53

somebody at the desk, you're

30:56

very hard to read because you're

30:56

suddenly pushing yourself into

30:59

their diary and you kind of

30:59

don't know what to do - and you

31:01

think somebody frightfully rude, they haven't phoned me back now. They've been madly busy on

31:03

something else. Back to my

31:06

comment about prioritisation,

31:06

yeah yeah, actually what they've

31:09

done is just prioritised me out

31:09

of the loop. No, that's fine,

31:12

that's fine. Yeah, there tends

31:12

to be the phone. I mean, I have

31:16

a networking business. So I am,

31:16

I suppose at one level, I'm a

31:20

professional networker. So

31:20

that's my Lamwyk business, we

31:24

were running forums about every

31:24

three weeks face to face, in

31:29

kind of normal times, we now run

31:29

those on video conference call,

31:34

it's a bit different, it's

31:34

really hard to do a roundtable

31:37

discussion. So we tend to

31:37

default to having two or three

31:40

speakers and I chair it and pull

31:40

that together. So that's, that's

31:43

one way of connecting with the

31:43

network, I also pivoted that

31:46

business to turn it into a

31:46

digital publishing business. So

31:48

we put out a Quarterly Journal,

31:48

and I do it as a commonplace

31:52

book. It's idiosyncratic, it's

31:52

just a whole bunch of stuff I

31:55

find to be interesting. And back

31:55

to my comment about reach and

31:59

range and scope and opportunity

31:59

etc, I use LinkedIn a lot. Back

32:04

to being the nosy and curious

32:04

one, I'm interested in what

32:06

other people do, it's actually a

32:06

fabulous way of connecting with

32:10

former colleagues or working

32:10

overseas. Because I've worked

32:13

for a Ossie firm in London, I've

32:13

got a whole bunch of Australian

32:16

contacts. And actually, that's a

32:16

pretty good medium and being

32:19

able to do that. Back to the one

32:19

about paying forward, that gets

32:23

to be more lively and

32:23

interesting, if you comment and

32:26

help and seek to engage with

32:26

other people's networks, rather

32:30

than trying to get people always

32:30

to come to you, kind of be a

32:33

reasonable human being rather

32:33

than trying to screw people up.

32:36

And yeah, that's probably about

32:36

it. And when we're all a bit

32:40

constrained, I mean, I think the

32:40

thing that's really hard is if

32:44

you don't have a developed

32:44

network,

32:46

Yeah,

32:47

So I think those

32:47

who are seeking to establish

32:50

themselves, it's much harder and

32:50

LinkedIn being but one example.

32:55

You can kind of when you look at

32:55

somebody whose profile, it has a

32:59

different - it's often quite

32:59

ignored by those people who've

33:03

been working for somewhere for

33:03

15 years, but they're argument

33:06

is Why do I need it? Well, it

33:06

can actually be a bit of an

33:10

insurance policy.

33:11

Oh, yeah. Absolutely

33:12

I started with

33:12

LinkedIn years and years and

33:14

years ago when it first started

33:14

because I moved jobs a couple of

33:17

times and you couldn't take your

33:17

contact book with you, it was a

33:21

property of the institution. And

33:21

for years I just used on the

33:25

kind of the Rolodex, of boxes of

33:25

physical business card, but they

33:28

date very quickly. Although, it

33:28

takes a certain degree of sort

33:31

of strength of character to throw them away, because they might be useful. So I switched

33:32

to using LinkedIn as effectively

33:36

as an online address book

33:36

because in the cloud and

33:39

therefore you were fine. So my

33:39

advice for anybody who is

33:41

looking or even thinking about

33:41

portfolio like career, have a

33:46

network. Doesn't matter who it

33:46

is or how many it is, have a

33:49

network because otherwise you

33:49

fall into the category of

33:54

Shoulda, Could have, Didn't.

33:54

Doing that today from scratch,

33:58

from your own house in lockdown

33:58

is definitely hard. But then how

34:02

do you it? Well, people you went

34:02

to school with, people who live

34:05

near with you, friends and

34:05

family, people you like about. I

34:07

mean there are kind of standard

34:07

levers, it's not, that bit ain't

34:12

rocket science. Oh, and I'm so

34:12

old that I I'm in the

34:15

demographic that quite enjoying

34:15

looking at rubbish stuff on

34:18

Facebook. But I think that's got

34:18

zero value in terms of my own

34:22

network. I know other people use

34:22

it for business, personally is

34:25

just for silliness. But it's

34:25

keeping connected with other

34:28

people. It's quite neat as well.

34:30

Yeah, you

34:30

do never know where that next

34:32

connections going to come from,

34:32

or that next recommendation,

34:35

etc, because somebody will see

34:35

and connect the dots.

34:39

I mean, I often

34:39

get the comments - how do you

34:41

know all these people? Get this

34:41

sort of little weird sort of

34:45

troll under a bridge collecting

34:45

business cards! Well, it goes

34:48

back to the nosy and the

34:48

curiosity part is if you're

34:50

interested in other people, if

34:50

you are minded to be welcoming,

34:55

then that's how you get to know

34:55

people. If you're frightfully

34:58

closed down and head down and

34:58

never look anybody in the eye

35:01

and you don't ever offer

35:01

anything up, you're likely to

35:03

have quite a small circle of

35:03

people, you know. And that may

35:06

be fine. But if you want to get

35:06

into a portfolio career you want

35:09

to be out and about, some of

35:09

those habits, you're probably

35:11

gonna have to change.

35:12

Yeah,

35:12

absolutely. I going to end on my

35:15

own nosy and curious question,

35:15

given the number of things that

35:18

you're involved with, and you've

35:18

created, and this might be a

35:21

hard question. But what venture

35:21

or role is your favourite?

35:26

Ah, don't have favourites?

35:28

No? No, not

35:28

at all. Not one that you really

35:32

lean towards?

35:35

Yeah, that's

35:35

tricky. The reason it's really

35:37

tricky is I have built this

35:37

venture studio of lots of

35:41

different ideas. And they're all

35:41

connected. So it's a bit like

35:46

the human body. I mean, kind of

35:46

which foot do you prefer? Your

35:49

right foot, your left foot?

35:49

Well, I'm quite fond the both of

35:51

them. So that's sort of the

35:51

that's out of the pushback

35:54

answer. But I also need to

35:54

nurture all of them because they

35:58

are all interdependent. The

35:58

marketing and creative agency

36:01

group that we've created. Well,

36:01

largely, my two business

36:04

partners have, but agencies

36:04

within that one of them's doing

36:07

the digital transformation to

36:07

build my cyber FinTech model,

36:10

one of the agencies is doing a

36:10

PR for one of the other

36:13

businesses. So everything's

36:13

interleaved. So as soon as you

36:15

drop out one part, you end up

36:15

with the law kind of unintended

36:19

consequences, because it's not

36:19

just you've lost that bit, but

36:22

it all the effect that it

36:22

ripples through. And it's the

36:26

greatest strength, I suppose it

36:26

is everything is interrelated,

36:29

you're not going to get me to

36:29

pick a favourite. But having

36:33

said that, there's always a

36:33

special spot for your firstborn.

36:37

And the first thing you do

36:37

because it in my case was

36:41

Chawker. We started life as a

36:41

wealth advisory business back in

36:44

2011. That was when I did step

36:44

off the stage and go, Okay, can

36:50

I do this, on my own, in a

36:50

recession be made redundant,

36:55

decent size mortgage, wife not

36:55

working, couple of kids in

36:58

school? Okay, so what do I do

36:58

now? You're definitely

37:01

vulnerable at that point. That

37:01

is kind of the beating heart of

37:04

the beginning of it. I mean, I

37:04

still had it. And I'm still

37:06

doing lots of other things. But

37:06

that's really kind of the

37:09

nucleus right at the beginning,

37:09

in the middle, or put it around

37:12

another way. If I hadn't done

37:12

that, I probably wouldn't do the

37:17

things that came along behind it.

37:18

Yeah. And beginnings are really important. We talk a lot about endings, but

37:20

beginnings are really important.

37:23

Thank you so much for your time,

37:23

Ed. It's been so interesting

37:26

talking to us today. And I can't

37:26

wait to find out what next.

37:31

Stop. Thank you very much indeed for having me. I love sharing and helping and

37:32

being engaged and... Terrific.

37:36

Thank you very much indeed.

37:37

Brilliant. Thanks, Ed.