0:01

Hello, I'm Jean-Philippe Courtois. Welcome to

0:03

another edition of B which

0:28

has been translated into 40 languages

0:30

and sold over 5 million

0:32

copies. Since then,

0:35

emotional intelligence has evolved into

0:37

a master of skill. I've

0:40

been wanting to have Daniel on the podcast

0:43

for so long. It

0:45

was a fascinating conversation. In

0:47

this episode, we talk in detail about

0:49

his latest book, Optimo,

0:52

or to Sustained Excellence Every Day, which

0:55

builds on his earlier findings to

0:57

understand how to master the skills

0:59

of emotional intelligence to

1:01

achieve high performance and satisfaction

1:04

while avoiding burnout. The

1:07

way the brain is designed, there's

1:10

a very direct connection between your

1:12

emotional state and your ability to

1:14

take in information, understand

1:16

it deeply, and respond nimbly.

1:18

When you're upset, you

1:21

can't think about other things because

1:24

emotion drives attention. And

1:27

attention is the key. So I

1:29

feel that one of the things we

1:31

can do, no matter what our position,

1:33

is manage attention, train it.

1:36

It's a skill. It's a skill set, like your

1:39

muscle. Every time you go to the gym, lift

1:42

a weight, that muscle gets out

1:44

much stronger. It's the same with

1:46

attention training. And by the way,

1:48

mindfulness in every meditation is a

1:50

form of training attention. This

1:52

episode is packed with practical tools

1:55

and techniques for strengthening

1:57

your attention to enable you to

1:59

stay focused Concentrated. And.

2:01

Then he also shows some incredible

2:03

insights into the importance of giving

2:05

a sexy sit back in why

2:08

the best way to motivate someone?

2:10

Is to speech. From. The heart. To.

2:13

The highest hope you enjoyed he

2:15

is Daniel. So

2:17

I like to start with a bit of background

2:20

information. We. Are born and raised

2:22

in California. Icing just after the

2:24

soon well worth Your parents were

2:26

both college professors. Your. Mother

2:28

was also social worker and your father

2:30

taught in humanities. So good you can

2:32

u penn is a picture of your

2:35

formative years. Where. The rest of the

2:37

key moments for you? Growing? Yep. It

2:39

was anything in your early development that

2:41

inspire you to work in a field

2:43

of psychology and pretty good so much

2:45

of your working life. Studying.

2:48

In writing a but emotions.

2:52

Well I think God looking at my

2:54

childhood I grew up in a very

2:56

ah. I

2:58

don't know how to say it

3:01

is there and gray area in

3:03

the city it's a farm city

3:05

yep in the central valley of

3:07

California are very boring place. Ah

3:09

however my parents had a active

3:12

life of the mind. My mother

3:14

is you've mentioned was a social

3:16

worker Ah my father was a

3:18

of beauty beloved ah teacher and

3:21

into college taught and I sell

3:23

system. Teaching. Was

3:25

a very generous profession because it

3:27

helped other people get what they

3:29

want to go. And then I

3:32

left California. I went to college

3:34

in the East. Coast

3:37

of Us. Very competitive place.

3:39

I ended up at Harvard's

3:41

Jetting Musical Psychology and I

3:43

sought some. This. Would

3:45

be a good way to express the what

3:47

my parents a model for me which was

3:49

helping of the people who are And then

3:52

when I had an opportunity to become a

3:54

science journalist I realized I could reach millions

3:56

not just one at a time I have

3:58

been is why become a writer. That's

4:00

more or less the trajectory. Okay. Can

4:03

you tell us more, Daniel, about some

4:05

of the core values, maybe, of your

4:07

parents as a family as well? You

4:10

know, maybe you can connect the dots later

4:12

on in your life with some of the

4:14

skills that you've been talking about eloquently and

4:16

tells you emotional intelligence, maybe. Any

4:20

insights on those foundational values,

4:22

maybe? My

4:26

mother had a motto, which is

4:29

heard often, actually, which was, make the world

4:31

a better place. That's a

4:33

nice one. And there's certainly a lot

4:35

of values expressed in that. And

4:39

my father had a

4:43

philosophy that we should learn as much as

4:45

we can about human nature, the good and

4:47

the bad, so

4:49

that we can help other people. So I think

4:51

putting those two together said

4:54

to me, oh, well, psychology seems to do

4:56

that. So that was the past. So

4:59

as you said, you graduated from Harvard,

5:01

and then you took a job with a

5:03

magazine, Psychology Today, which then paved

5:05

the way for 12 years, reporting for the

5:07

New York Times, current psychology

5:10

and other related topics as

5:12

well. I think it was at this time

5:14

when the overwhelming amount of research and data

5:16

and emotions and the brain that

5:18

you had gathered and written about gave you

5:21

the inspiration for the groundbreaking

5:23

book, of course, Emotional Intelligence. So

5:25

what made you want

5:28

to branch out on your own at this

5:30

point after 12 years? Again, as

5:32

a very, I would say,

5:34

famous journalist. You

5:37

know what happened? Because I think you're already

5:39

published, but it was a

5:41

big risk for you to leave

5:43

a secure job, right, on your own. Actually,

5:46

here was my dilemma, frankly.

5:50

At the New York Times, I could write about

5:52

what my editor thought I should write about. And

5:55

I wrote a book, and could write about whatever I

5:57

wanted to write about. was

6:00

not a choice, no brainer,

6:02

as we say in English. So

6:05

I was happy to write a book. I

6:07

put together, I would say about a third

6:09

of the book, emotional intelligence, was

6:11

rewriting things I had already done in

6:13

the New York Times. I've been covering

6:16

emotions, particularly emotions in the brain.

6:19

And I felt that in 1990, I saw this article

6:23

by my friend Peter Salovey, who's

6:25

now the president of Yale University. He

6:28

and John Mayer wrote an article called

6:30

Emotional Intelligence. I'd never seen the phrase before. That's

6:34

so great, it sounds like an oxymoron.

6:36

They don't go together, intelligent in emotion,

6:38

but it means being intelligent about emotion.

6:41

And I use that as the title and

6:43

frame for the book. Wonderful,

6:45

wonderful story in terms of the inception

6:49

point of your book. We

6:52

obviously know that the book gave a

6:54

huge following and collective imagination of, I

6:57

mean, millions of people around the world, literally

7:00

changing people's perceptions about the

7:02

role that IQ and IQ

7:04

play in our lives, in our

7:06

workplace. So did you ever imagine at

7:08

a time that you would be that successful

7:10

and still popular so

7:13

many decades after you published in

7:16

1985? You know, publishing

7:18

a book is like playing a roulette. You

7:20

never know how it's gonna do for it. I

7:23

was pleasantly surprised by the success of the

7:25

book. It's now in over 40 languages. It's

7:28

been a bestseller in many countries around the world. The

7:32

concept, because of articles in Harvey

7:34

Business Review, has

7:36

become promoted as a key

7:38

to leadership. I

7:41

originally was interested in getting what

7:44

I thought of as emotional literacy into

7:46

schools. Yes. Children. And

7:49

the book, Emotional Intelligence, is in large part

7:51

about that. But there was one small chapter

7:54

called Managing with Heart. That

7:56

got huge interest in the business community

8:00

as an opening for what I conceive

8:02

of as really adult education. If

8:05

you go for children, you get them to age 12

8:07

maybe. If you get them

8:09

in companies, you get them for the rest of their

8:11

lives pretty much. And you

8:14

know, which is wonderful, reflecting on what

8:16

you just said before, right, with your

8:18

dad as a teacher, did

8:20

he in some ways inspire you

8:23

about that need

8:25

to connect emotional skills

8:28

in teaching as well? And in learning, by

8:30

the way, with kids. Well, you know, I

8:32

think he modeled it implicitly and never said

8:34

anything about it explicitly. Yeah.

8:37

I kind of put that together

8:39

because I studied clinical psychology. And

8:41

when you're working with patients, emotions

8:43

are really what you're dealing with. People

8:47

come because they're anxious or they're panicked

8:49

or they're depressed or they're too angry.

8:53

And so you're always doing it. So it was obvious

8:55

to me from the get-go that

8:57

we need to deal with emotions. And I

8:59

was told when I wrote the book, Emotional

9:01

Intelligence, well, you can't see the word emotion

9:03

in a business. I

9:06

was cautioned. And I realized that

9:08

there was a kind of cultural

9:10

norm in corporations, particularly that

9:13

emotions were not allowed. But you know,

9:15

the brain doesn't pay attention to

9:17

that. We always have emotions. We don't leave them

9:19

at home. They come with us

9:21

to the office and they matter enormously.

9:24

And if we don't deal with them intelligently, we're

9:26

in trouble. Yeah. I mean,

9:28

in a way, there's been for so many

9:30

years, you could argue today, I guess, some

9:32

form of censorship when it comes to EQ

9:34

in a workplace. And you

9:36

know, when I think about the way

9:38

society as a whole, education

9:41

with the famous SAT today,

9:43

okay, for college, but also

9:45

the workplace rely on IQ,

9:48

it means that we're

9:50

still not completely chanced up hard.

9:52

Right. And so what do you think

9:54

is it so hard for society

9:56

to move away from a

9:58

single minded business? IQ approach

10:02

to a more balanced IQ and EQ approach.

10:06

And can you talk about different

10:08

roles, of course, at a high level IQ and

10:10

EQ should play together? Let me

10:12

tell you how they actually interact. Yes.

10:15

It's very important to understand this. I think

10:17

we're socialized during our school years and

10:20

in our graduate training to value IQ.

10:24

And there's no question that if

10:26

you take a large population, like

10:28

my public high school had 2,000

10:30

plus students and gave

10:32

an IQ test, that IQ would

10:34

predict the

10:36

lifelong salary level of that

10:38

person because it's an excellent

10:41

way to gauge what profession

10:43

that person can go into.

10:45

Can they be a high level executive? Well, you

10:47

need to have an IQ about a standard deviation

10:50

above the norm. Same

10:52

for an advanced degree. However,

10:54

this is where it gets tricky. So

10:57

IQ is an excellent predictor of

11:00

how far your cognitive abilities will get you.

11:02

But once you're an employee at say Google

11:05

or a major corporation, everyone

11:08

else is as smart as you are. That's

11:11

where emotional intelligence starts to matter.

11:13

Who will emerge as an outstanding

11:15

leader, outstanding team member, an outstanding

11:18

performer? It has nothing

11:20

to do with IQ differences because

11:22

there's a very high round

11:25

effect for that. It has

11:27

everything to do with how you manage yourself

11:30

and how you relate to others. And

11:32

that's emotional intelligence. I'd like to go

11:34

back to some of the roots maybe,

11:36

if there's any, with some of the

11:39

most real philosophers, okay, in

11:41

the past. Aristotle as an example, discussed

11:43

the concept of pro-nesis,

11:46

practical wisdom, which involved the

11:48

ethical emotional aspects of decision

11:50

making. Plato in the

11:52

Republic as well, distinguished

11:54

three parts, the rational, the

11:57

spirited and the appetitive.

12:00

Probably emotional intelligence, I would

12:02

argue, should be connected to

12:04

the concept of the spirited part, I guess.

12:07

Nietzsche as well is known for his critique

12:09

of traditional moral values, but he

12:11

emphasized the power and value of emotions

12:14

and instincts. So clearly emotional

12:16

intelligence has been around in many ways without

12:18

saying it, in some

12:22

of the foundational philosophical models.

12:25

So can you describe us

12:27

today in 2024, Daniel, or

12:29

important is it, from your point of view,

12:34

to basically develop

12:36

that new muscle for all of

12:38

us? So you

12:41

know, philosophers have sensed this

12:43

for centuries. Yeah. Because

12:45

human nature has not changed. The design of

12:47

the brain has not changed in 100,000 years.

12:51

And I base my understanding of

12:54

emotional intelligence on how the brain

12:56

works, a contemporary look. We

12:59

don't need philosophy. We have science now. We

13:01

have neuroscience. The neuroscience tells us that

13:04

there are four domains that are

13:06

very interconnected and very important. These

13:09

are the domains of emotional intelligence. First

13:11

one is self-awareness. Do you know what

13:13

you're feeling? Do you know how it's

13:15

shaping your perceptions and your thoughts and

13:18

your impulse to act? By the way,

13:20

one definition of maturity is extending the

13:22

gap between impulse and action. So

13:25

that's self-awareness. Then the managing emotions, which

13:28

I would say allows you to extend

13:30

that gap. And it's

13:32

not just handling the upsets, but also staying

13:34

positive, achieving your goals. Maybe we can talk

13:36

about that in a bit. And

13:40

then there is not just leading yourself,

13:42

which I've been describing, but leading others,

13:44

tuning into the person in front of

13:47

you, empathy. There are three kinds

13:49

of empathy, very different, and the leader

13:51

needs all of them, cognitive empathy. I

13:53

understand how you think and the language you

13:56

use to explain reality to yourself. I can

13:58

use those same terms. Yes. That's

14:00

a Jew effectively. The second is emotional empathy

14:02

very different part of the brain And

14:05

that means I know how you feel I sense it

14:07

too And that allows a leader

14:09

to be on target In

14:12

what they say and when they say it and

14:14

how they say it and then the third I

14:16

think is really important very often ignored It's

14:19

called empathic concern technically. It means I

14:21

not only know how you think and

14:23

feel I care about you This is

14:25

what develops trust. This is what lets

14:27

you a leader Influence and

14:29

guide coach. This is

14:31

what makes a leader someone we like Uh,

14:35

and then putting that all together

14:37

to have effective leadership relationships So

14:39

in a model of ei and

14:41

leadership excellence that daniel has developed

14:45

There are four key domains self-awareness

14:49

self-management social

14:51

awareness and relationship management

14:54

But nested within each of those

14:56

domains are 12 competencies learned

14:59

and learnable skills that allow its

15:02

standing performance as a leader These

15:05

include empathy passive outlook

15:08

and self-control All

15:10

these skills are important. So if

15:13

you want to improve your emotional intelligence skills,

15:15

where do you start? What improvement might

15:18

help you get there? Daniel

15:20

recommends doing an emotional social

15:22

competence inventory first To

15:24

understand how people you interact with

15:27

on a daily basis perceive you

15:30

Both in how you manage yourself and

15:32

how you manage your relationships It's

15:34

a 360 that lets you choose people

15:37

to to analyze you. You don't know

15:39

who says what it's confidential But you

15:41

use that profile across

15:44

behaviors that reflect the 12 Competencies

15:48

of outstanding performers

15:51

And once you see where you are on

15:53

that you might be wonderful at managing

15:56

your emotions and terrible at

15:59

adaptability Yeah, you might freeze,

16:01

you know when things change You

16:04

might be too rigid or you might not

16:06

keep your eye on the goal might be

16:08

too distracted. Those are very different competencies Yeah,

16:11

and so I'd say it's quite individual when

16:13

you get to the relationship management

16:15

the fourth part You

16:18

know a lot of executives

16:20

don't bother coaching people, but that's

16:22

important. You have to realize your

16:24

grooming Leadership of this organization for

16:26

the future. It's part of your

16:28

responsibility. You're not just writing and

16:30

influencing That's important too. Of course.

16:32

It's a separate competency. So anyway,

16:34

you need to see what is

16:37

your profile? Are you a great team member

16:39

or not? Mm-hmm and the people who work

16:41

with you day in and day out? No

16:44

Yeah, you won't tell you face to face So

16:47

tell you one when they're anonymous and rating. Yes

16:51

No, it's great great great advice again to to

16:53

all of us Daniel. No, I like to go

16:55

back to You

16:57

know what he mentioned before because you've been

17:00

a practitioner all of your life yourself, right?

17:03

And I know that you've been

17:05

using meditation mindfulness as well And

17:08

so I was very interested actually to read the to read

17:11

of the world that you and their own

17:13

scientists Richard David son deal on the benefits

17:15

of mindfulness. I think you listed

17:17

four real benefits So

17:19

can you elaborate on those four benefits and

17:21

the way you do that as well? well,

17:25

I Don't recall what

17:27

the four are but I will talk

17:29

about some benefits because medication as I

17:31

said, yes Belief

17:35

system aside irrelevant there many belief

17:37

systems, but you're really training

17:39

attention and attention is

17:42

the key to Being

17:45

in that optimal state the state where

17:47

you feel very where you are productive

17:49

you feel satisfied with what you're doing

17:51

You're engaged You

17:53

feel good. You're positive. You're right

17:56

your best. Yes, so you

17:58

can get there by focusing focusing on

18:00

what you're doing right now and focusing,

18:02

paying full attention is a mental skill

18:05

that you can improve just as you

18:07

would strengthen a muscle. And

18:10

can I share a way to do that? Yeah,

18:12

please, I love you to work as a tutorial.

18:14

Well, this

18:17

is a kind of basic attention

18:19

training. And

18:21

you find a place where you won't

18:23

be interrupted for a while, I've talked

18:25

to some people say, you know,

18:28

I've got four kids, there's never a place where

18:30

I'm not in trouble. Find one and find

18:32

a time in your schedule. And

18:35

then if you want, you can close

18:37

your eyes and bring your full awareness,

18:39

your full attention to your breathing,

18:41

that's simple. Breathe

18:43

in, breathe out,

18:47

and notice the space in between breaths and

18:49

then bring your attention to the next breath.

18:51

Don't try to control your breath, just let

18:53

it be easy and natural. And

18:57

breathe in, breathe out, as

19:01

your mind wanders and you've noticed it

19:04

wandered, then bring it

19:06

back to your breath. That

19:08

is the moment of mindfulness. That's

19:10

the moment that strengthens the circuitry

19:12

for paying full attention. So

19:15

it's something you can do. It's that simple, you

19:17

might do it for five minutes if you've never

19:19

done it, or try to extend it.

19:21

We find a dose response relationship,

19:23

the more you do it, the greater the

19:26

benefits. And the benefits include being

19:28

fully able to focus at

19:30

will on what's important right

19:32

now and ignore distractions. Lord

19:35

knows, today there are more distractions than

19:37

ever. Everyone carries a cell phone and

19:39

on your cell phone are the things

19:42

that interest you most. And

19:44

you can put it aside during your

19:46

meditation and train your strengths and your

19:49

attention. Another

19:51

thing that you get as

19:53

a benefit is that the same circuitry

19:55

that pays attention calms you. So

19:58

you end up calm and clear. and

20:01

able to engage fully in whatever you

20:03

have to do next. Wonderful,

20:05

is this something that you keep doing

20:08

like every day or couple times a

20:10

week or what is the routine you

20:12

have? If you go to the

20:15

gym once or twice a year, it's not gonna do you

20:17

any good. No, for sure. Same with the mental gym. Yes.

20:19

I encourage doing it daily if you can fit

20:22

it into your schedule for as much as you

20:24

can for as long as you can. I do

20:26

like an hour now every day. I've been doing

20:28

it for years and years. Yes. You

20:30

need to build up to that. But

20:33

I think that it's important to do it as

20:36

often as you can, preferably every

20:38

day, because that

20:40

means you're actually strengthening that circuitry.

20:43

Yeah. That's a great advice

20:45

for sure, Daniel. No, I like to shift

20:47

gears. I'd love to ask you about your

20:49

latest book, which I found extremely

20:52

food-provoking. The book's overarching message

20:54

is about the optimal state.

20:57

The state you characterize as having

20:59

a very satisfying day, one

21:02

where we feel we did well in ways that

21:04

matter to us, where

21:07

in a mood that facilitates what we

21:09

did and felt ready to take on

21:11

whatever challenges came along. In

21:13

contrast, you discussed the flow state, which

21:16

is infinitely harder to achieve

21:18

and is harder to sustain for long

21:20

periods. So can you talk

21:22

about the optimal state and the flow state,

21:25

the difference between the two of them?

21:28

And why is it better to seek

21:30

optimal living and working over striving for

21:32

flow? I

21:35

think the reasons become

21:37

obvious once

21:40

you look more deeply into each. The

21:42

flow state was discovered by researchers at

21:44

the University of Chicago, who

21:46

asked people, you know, ballerinas,

21:48

chess champions, neurosurgeons, tell us

21:50

about a time you outdid

21:52

yourself. You were just fantastic. Even

21:54

you were surprised at how well you did. And

21:57

they all didn't matter. if

22:00

it was surgery or a chest gank, didn't matter. The

22:03

internal state was the same and that's what

22:05

they called flow. It's a state where

22:07

you're fully focused. Remember I was

22:09

talking about that. It's a

22:11

state where whatever it is, you

22:14

do it your best at your

22:16

very best, your self-consciousness disappears, you

22:19

time speeds up or

22:21

goes slowly. It means you're in an altered

22:23

state. The problem with flow, which sounds great,

22:25

is you can't make it happen. It

22:27

happens to you. It's like grace all from the

22:29

front. That

22:32

one time you outdid yourself and if

22:34

you hold yourself to that as your

22:36

standard, you're only gonna be self-critical

22:39

and that doesn't help you at all. So

22:41

that's why we say, look, you

22:44

can get into a state of

22:46

high performance by paying full attention. And

22:49

that high performance state, this comes from research at

22:51

Harvard Business School where 12,000 journal

22:53

entries were analyzed, people's

22:57

work days and they found that

22:59

the best state, as I said,

23:01

is one where you perform well,

23:04

you're highly productive, you

23:06

are very engaged and committed. This means

23:08

of course, lower turnover. People who feel

23:10

committed to what they're doing don't quit.

23:13

You feel good, you feel

23:15

connected. It's a state where you can say,

23:18

boy, that was a good day. And

23:22

everybody knows what I mean by that and

23:24

it's achievable. So you don't have to be

23:26

self-critical. I think it's very

23:29

interesting, Daniel, because in a way, I

23:31

mean, this book has been written like

23:33

almost 30 years after emotional intelligence, right?

23:36

And so it reminds me of a

23:38

critique being done these days by

23:41

some neuroscientists on kind

23:44

of the moral injunction, I think, to all of

23:46

us to become the best version of ourselves every

23:48

single day of our lives. I mean, we hear

23:50

that in many, I just

23:52

social media, podcasts, gurus, and

23:54

so on. Hey, JP, you have to

23:57

be the very best and excel every

23:59

single day. moment of your life and

24:02

it's not human at the end of the day. So

24:04

my question to you is with time and

24:07

reflection, are you no more cautious about pushing

24:10

people to strive for perfection with

24:12

the flow and instead advise us to

24:14

reach what you call the good enough

24:16

practice in our lives with the

24:19

optimal? You know, you're

24:22

really talking about people putting themselves on

24:24

the track for burnout by

24:27

expecting every moment of every day I'm going

24:29

to be my absolute best. No one's like

24:31

that. We want to do a good enough.

24:33

We want to have a good day at work, for example, or

24:35

a good day with our spouse or

24:37

a good day with our kids.

24:40

But you can't do it all

24:42

the time and the recipe for

24:44

burnout starts with constant

24:47

stress and people often stress themselves

24:49

by holding themselves to too high a

24:51

standard and being self-critical. Your self-talk, as

24:54

we call it, what goes on

24:56

in your head is very important here because

24:59

if you're putting yourself down,

25:01

if you're criticizing yourself, it actually

25:04

evokes a negative internal state, not

25:06

a positive one. No, I love

25:08

you. Sorry, keep going, Daniel. Well, no,

25:11

and if you do that all the

25:13

time, you get to

25:15

a state of emotional exhaustion, which is

25:17

the prelude to burnout and that, of course, needs many

25:19

people to quit. Yeah, and I

25:21

see so many times such

25:25

unfortunate, I would say, outcomes at

25:27

any of us with people at

25:30

work, entrepreneurs who are giving it

25:32

all but so much that they

25:35

forget they are humans, right? And they

25:38

are burnout and then they go for

25:40

clearly to fight with their lives. So

25:43

I think it's a great advice

25:45

to become more nuanced and even

25:47

actually the world optimal, I

25:50

think, has to be well defined because

25:52

I would argue that some people might

25:54

understand optimal as like, wow, still a

25:57

super high bar, right? Optimal

26:00

is not necessarily perfect. Right. I

26:02

agree. It's good enough. It's pretty

26:04

good. It's good enough. And perfection,

26:06

holding yourself to perfection, being a

26:09

perfectionist, means that you're self-critical quite

26:11

a lot. You don't see in

26:13

your good side you only

26:15

think about what you didn't do. But that's

26:17

not helpful. So

26:20

let's continue this discussion. Your research

26:22

has shown that successful leaders show

26:26

strength in self-awareness, self-regulation, motivation,

26:28

empathy, and social skills. And

26:31

again, the book you published after

26:33

your very popular book on emotional intelligence

26:35

on what makes a leader really struck

26:37

a chord with so many people around the world.

26:40

And I'm a strong believer, by the way, that

26:42

many people have hidden leadership

26:44

capabilities that are waiting

26:46

to be unleashed by

26:49

others or by some meaningful

26:51

discovery of your life. So

26:54

what is your own definition

26:56

of leadership? And

26:58

how would you describe what makes a

27:00

positive leader? Kind of two questions in

27:02

one. Well, consider this. Leadership

27:05

is the art of getting work done

27:07

well by other people. Every

27:10

leader depends on how their people

27:12

do. Yes. And

27:15

some leaders drive them,

27:18

and they don't realize that constant

27:21

upset or stress is bad for people. They

27:24

don't realize the body is designed to rest

27:26

and recover. You know, we

27:28

need a period every day where we

27:30

can restore ourselves. We can't

27:33

take constant stress. But some

27:35

leaders, unfortunately, try to get

27:37

results by stressing people continually.

27:39

Other leaders get the same

27:42

results by inspiring people, motivating

27:44

them, guiding them, which

27:46

is a much better motivational system.

27:49

And we find, for example, that if

27:52

you used a human resources lens to

27:54

look at that optimal day, you

27:57

see that engagement is high, turnover is

27:59

low. Satisfaction is high.

28:01

All of the indicators are in the

28:03

right direction. But people

28:05

don't experience it that way. Companies

28:09

look through a lens that sees it

28:11

that way. That's right. So

28:13

let's build on that and come back again to

28:15

my question about what makes

28:17

a positive leader. You know, I did on

28:19

my podcast, Danielle, people I'm sure you know

28:22

super well like Martin Seligman, Barbara

28:24

Fradison, Kim Cameron as well.

28:27

And you know, obviously all

28:30

of them contributed to positive

28:32

psychology but also defining some

28:34

of the foundation of what is called

28:36

positive leadership these days. So what

28:38

is your definition of a positive leader?

28:42

I would say a positive leader is one who

28:45

is emotionally intelligent, who knows what they're

28:47

feeling, manages their feelings, well stays focused

28:50

on the goal despite the distractions of the

28:52

day, turns into

28:55

other people accordingly.

28:59

And I think

29:01

that staying positive and

29:03

being positive positive attitude is

29:05

key to being a

29:08

leader who gets the best out of people in

29:10

the best way. Yeah, that's a great

29:12

definition. I love it. And I

29:14

more than agree with you. No, just

29:17

adding a bit more to the discussion.

29:19

There's been some confusion over what is

29:21

to be positive versus

29:23

being nice or kind. So

29:25

can you clarify what

29:27

is at the core positivity over just

29:29

being nice and kind? So

29:33

being emotionally intelligent doesn't mean being nice.

29:35

This is a common misconception. Yes. It

29:37

means telling the truth in a way

29:39

people can hear it. It might be

29:41

a hard truth. And

29:43

one of the common errors in the

29:45

business place is giving performance

29:48

feedback rarely and doing it in

29:50

a way which demoralizes someone. They

29:52

feel they're just being criticized and

29:55

their best parts aren't

29:57

even recognized. So I would say I

29:59

think. the advice I would give a leader is

30:03

give feedback in

30:06

the moment when you can. Real time. Not

30:08

in front of other people, you know, because

30:10

it might be embarrassing, but still, and also

30:13

separate the person from the behavior.

30:16

Very important. You want to help a

30:18

person see that when they do X,

30:20

it has this consequence. Why? It

30:23

would be better if they do Z.

30:25

And by the way, you're excellent at A, B, and

30:27

Z. So I'm sure you can

30:29

do this. And also what we

30:32

found is that organizations that

30:34

have an emotionally intelligent culture offer

30:37

effective ways to improve these

30:39

abilities. That's one thing that

30:41

sets them apart. And also in performance reviews,

30:43

it's not just, did you get results? How

30:45

did you get those results? You

30:48

can do it in the worst way or the best way. And

30:52

also we find it's important to have someone

30:54

on the business side say this

30:56

skill set matters. Because

30:59

that will have an impact throughout the

31:02

whole culture. I

31:04

just want to think about what Daniel

31:07

said there, because it is so, so

31:09

true. If I reflect on

31:11

the course of my years as a leader,

31:13

the ability to tell the truth in a

31:15

way people can hear and it

31:18

builds a relationship and does not

31:20

diminish it is

31:22

key. In

31:24

the episode with Kim Cameron, he

31:26

shares some great supportive communication techniques

31:29

around how to deliver feedback in particular

31:32

that you might find very useful. And

31:35

something else I've recognized is

31:37

that it's critical for leader to

31:40

connect to the core values of the culture of the

31:42

company you work for and to

31:44

make it fun. So that when

31:46

you coach people, you do it in the context of

31:49

those values. You talk about

31:51

how and why you see it

31:53

happening. You help people

31:55

realize the alignment and understanding

31:57

of what that value means in real life.

32:00

life as you work together.

32:03

The best way to motivate someone is to

32:05

speak from the heart to the heart. Yeah.

32:07

To understand the core value, what's the principle,

32:09

what's the good we're doing in the world?

32:12

What do I care about in terms of our

32:15

mission? What do you care about?

32:17

Can I inspire you that way?

32:19

That gets the best effort out

32:21

of people, absolutely. Love,

32:24

love, love your passion for getting the

32:26

best of people and growing them. I

32:29

was also interested, Danielle, to read in

32:31

your book that over the years, you've

32:33

sought to expand on the definition of

32:35

some of the fundamental EI

32:38

competencies. You talk about

32:40

how you've come to relabel some key

32:42

components, and have opened up the meaning

32:44

to incorporate more nuance. One

32:47

key competency positivity that we keep discussing together

32:49

went up and up. Links

32:51

nicely with Carol Dweck's cross-mindset theory

32:53

that you know, of course, very

32:56

well. She argues that how we

32:58

think about our abilities can

33:00

become a self-fulfilling prophecy. So

33:02

if you have a rigid fixed

33:04

mindset, we take our failures

33:06

and setbacks to be due to

33:09

an innate lack of ability and just

33:11

give up, right? So can you discuss

33:14

your process of relabeling and

33:16

broadening out your definitions of

33:18

the EI competencies? The

33:22

EI competencies were derived

33:24

from independent studies

33:27

of outstanding performers, and

33:30

what made them so good. And

33:33

then when I wrote

33:36

about emotional intelligence in the

33:38

four domains that we discussed, I

33:41

saw that a set of

33:43

these competencies embedded very

33:45

neatly in each of those

33:47

four domains. And

33:50

over the years, I've thought

33:53

differently about some of these

33:55

competencies. So for example, self-control,

33:57

emotional self-control. What

34:00

I originally called the ability to manage

34:02

upset, but I don't like self-control because

34:05

every emotion is a message Yes, but important

34:07

to us. So self-control

34:09

might be misinterpreted as Denying.

34:13

Yes, that's not what I mean. I've changed

34:15

that now to emotional balance because

34:17

I think that's more points

34:20

to what I'm talking about And

34:23

then in terms of the

34:25

self-management domain I

34:27

saw great correspondence between achieving

34:30

your goals. Yep and grit

34:32

for example, which is now Oh,

34:34

yeah hot new idea, which maybe

34:36

we can discuss a little yeah,

34:38

and I saw that positivity was

34:40

key to A

34:42

ductress idea of a growth mindset seeing that

34:45

I can change and you can change. Yes

34:47

with a better And helping

34:49

people change. So over

34:51

the years i've seen uh correspondence

34:54

to other Concepts that

34:56

different people have put forth and

34:59

I embrace them Yeah, no,

35:01

so let's build on what you just

35:03

talked about daniel. Uh, you

35:05

know, I just had actually uh, Angela

35:08

Durkraus on my podcast Just

35:11

just had so the the episode was

35:13

just out just recently and

35:15

and obviously I love you to talk

35:17

about the Connectedness you

35:19

see between the grid for achievement

35:22

on one end Uh that

35:24

she of course she's she's been uh, you

35:26

know defining And the

35:28

positivity for the growth mindset all

35:30

the interchangeable skills in a ways

35:32

all the different kind of skills

35:34

I think it's different labeling of

35:36

very similar skills and by

35:38

the way I I have

35:40

to say there's a very

35:43

important limitation to self-management

35:45

competencies Uh

35:47

like growth mindset For

35:50

yourself. Yeah or grit which will help you

35:52

get where you want to go and

35:55

that is for leadership If

35:57

you have grit say but you don't

35:59

have then you're in

36:01

trouble as a leader. And

36:03

the grit concept has nothing to do with

36:05

empathy. It's all about persistence. That's right. Working

36:08

towards your goal. So I see the

36:10

emotional intelligence model as a more holistic

36:12

way of talking about what's positive in

36:14

leadership, because it includes not

36:16

just what's gonna get me, that I

36:18

have a friend who's an executive coach,

36:20

who coaches C-suite people. She says, everyone

36:23

in the C-suite has very good striving

36:25

for achievement. That's how they got in a C-suite,

36:29

but if they don't have empathy, they're in trouble. I

36:31

do a lot of coaching around that. No,

36:34

I think it's a great qualification, actually,

36:36

what we are talking about. You

36:39

know, in a positive leadership, and you

36:41

know that for many years, Daniel, there's

36:44

this framework, which is kind

36:46

of called the Three Circles of Positive Leadership.

36:49

It's about me, me and others,

36:52

and me and the world. And

36:54

within a circle, I've been trying

36:57

to practice myself, what I've been

36:59

calling, for the second better name,

37:02

the nine powers of positive leadership,

37:04

positive behaviors, right? Such as building

37:06

confidence, generating positive energy, and

37:09

having a positive impact in the world for the third

37:11

circle. And I've seen, oh,

37:13

using those powers creates a lot of positive

37:16

repos through teams in my

37:19

organization company, also in my foundation,

37:22

with young social entrepreneurs. So

37:26

I know that in the work you've

37:28

done, there's this concept of the circle

37:30

of caring as well. So

37:32

I'd like you to kind of connect the

37:34

dots, maybe a bit, and describing

37:36

this idea of the circle of

37:38

caring, and the way it

37:41

helps, in a way, on the second circle

37:43

of me and others, right? And the way

37:45

I can enable that power. Maybe

37:47

I can make the point by

37:49

demonstrating another practice. Yes, please, please.

37:53

When I, with Richard Davidson,

37:55

the neuroscientist at Wisconsin, I wrote a book

37:57

looking at all of the good research on...

38:00

attention training or meditation if you want to

38:02

call it that. And what

38:04

we found is that the circle

38:06

of caring, which is a common

38:09

practice in many traditions, has

38:12

a brain effect rather

38:15

remarkably soon. The

38:17

brain wants to care, it turns out,

38:20

and it wants to expand the circle. So here's

38:22

a very simple practice. You can add it in

38:24

the breath meditation if you want. Do it right

38:26

out. You just, so

38:29

you're very calm and very clear, and

38:32

your eyes are closed, and you say to yourself,

38:35

you think of people in your life that have

38:38

been kind to you, that you're grateful to, and

38:41

you wish them well. You say, may

38:43

you be safe, happy, healthy, may

38:46

you be free from suffering, may you thrive

38:48

in life. And

38:50

you just repeat that silently with that person

38:52

or people in mind. Yeah. And

38:55

then you think about yourself, and you say,

38:57

may I be safe, happy, healthy,

39:00

free from suffering, may I thrive in

39:02

life. And

39:04

you say that a few times. And then you think

39:06

of people you love who are

39:09

dear to you, and you say, may

39:11

you be safe, happy, healthy, free

39:14

from suffering, may you thrive. And

39:17

then you extend it to acquaintances,

39:19

people you don't know that well,

39:21

people in your region, in your

39:23

neighborhood, may you all

39:25

be safe, happy, healthy, free from suffering,

39:27

may you thrive. And then you extend it

39:30

to everyone everywhere. Yeah. That's the big

39:32

one. That's the world. Yes. May you all

39:34

be safe, happy, free from suffering. And

39:37

it turns out that that exercise,

39:39

if you repeat it daily, like I said

39:42

you should do with the attention training, expands

39:45

your ability for compassion, for

39:47

generosity, for helping other people.

39:50

I think it's been measured by

39:53

research by neuroscientists. I heard

39:55

about research done studying

39:57

the neural past, actually. that

40:00

are changing over the years if you

40:02

do them. Exactly. So

40:04

that's an exercise for the caring part of

40:06

the brain, if you will. Yes. That's

40:09

wonderful. Thank you so much for

40:11

sharing actually day-to-day practices, which are

40:14

so, so, I would say

40:16

necessary for all of us. But I'd like

40:18

to talk about, you know, I

40:20

know it's hard to make that connection from that

40:22

practice you just talked about to

40:24

measurement of EI, because, you

40:26

know, when you work with companies, companies, businesses,

40:29

and so on, you know, always,

40:31

you know, people, C-suite wants

40:34

to measure everything, right? The KPI of success. Of

40:36

course. Sure. I know that you've

40:39

been working with your colleague, Richard Boyatsis, what

40:41

you call, I think, the ESCI,

40:43

emotional social competence inventory, 360 degree

40:45

of a person, personal interpersonal

40:48

skills. Can you describe what

40:50

it works? I know you advise people

40:53

to measure or not actually

40:56

EI. So

40:59

the emotional social competence inventory, it's

41:01

a 360 ESCI. You

41:05

can get it from Corn Ferry. It's a global

41:07

firm. It's in many

41:09

languages. Yeah. Richard

41:11

Boyatsis, who teaches at Case Western's

41:13

business school, and I have been

41:16

friends since graduate school actually, and we

41:18

co-design this as

41:20

a way to help develop leadership.

41:22

It's not, by the way, a

41:25

way to evaluate emotional intelligence

41:27

in a company. I would look for

41:29

harder measures if I wanted to do

41:31

that. I'd look at turnover. I'd

41:33

look at engagement. I'd

41:36

look at satisfaction, things that you

41:38

already have measures for, standard measures

41:41

for. And, you know,

41:43

engagement predicts profit and growth in a

41:45

company. It's very important. And

41:48

as I said, a good day, that optimal

41:50

day, includes engagement. People

41:53

are focused on what they're doing. They

41:55

feel satisfied. So I'd look

41:57

for hard indicators of emotional

41:59

intelligence. rather indirect. I

42:02

don't actually endorse any direct measure

42:04

of emotional intelligence. I'll tell you

42:06

why. Yeah. Emotional

42:08

intelligence is not a photograph. It's

42:11

a video. Anybody can

42:13

improve. Yes. And so if

42:15

you take a snapshot of how someone is right

42:17

now, that doesn't mean they're like that

42:19

forever. It means you have a

42:21

job, which is to help that person get better.

42:23

It's emotion. Yeah,

42:27

exactly. So

42:31

I wouldn't endorse any

42:33

particular so-called

42:36

emotional intelligence measure for

42:39

many reasons. One being many of them are

42:41

self, you know, I report

42:44

myself. And we have cognitive biases.

42:46

Either we're trying to look good or we don't

42:48

know what our blind spots are. How can you

42:50

believe in data? Yes. Yeah,

42:52

I love it. So let's discuss a

42:54

little bit more actually again what it

42:57

would call enterprise-wide culture. I mean, I

42:59

do believe, you know, working with a,

43:02

I would say, with a need for the

43:04

same company for almost 40 years, Microsoft, right?

43:06

Right. I learned,

43:08

right, really firsthand that

43:11

culture matters. It matters a

43:13

lot in the way you shape it,

43:15

in the way you make it feel, in the way you

43:17

embody it, in the way you let it go or not.

43:20

And so, love to hear you, Daniel,

43:22

during the work you've done with large

43:25

organization as well. Sure.

43:27

Some of the best ways you've seen

43:29

organizations of any size really

43:33

nurturing their culture and

43:36

favoring that emotional intelligence

43:38

across the anti-enterprise. So

43:41

let's start with the individual and work up.

43:44

Ask yourself, of

43:46

all the bosses I've had or heard about, which one

43:48

do I like the most and which do I hate?

43:51

And why? And then that

43:54

gives you a picture of emotional intelligence on one

43:56

hand or a lack of it on the other.

43:58

And there are studies that show people... People get

44:00

hired for business expertise or intelligence.

44:03

They get fired for lacking

44:05

something in emotional intelligence. And

44:08

this is globally true. So given

44:10

that you want to have good

44:12

bosses and not bad bosses in

44:15

your company, how do you do

44:17

that? What do you offer your people? Well,

44:19

first of all, you let it know

44:21

when you're recruiting that this matters here.

44:23

People self-select, for one thing. You

44:27

also want to let people know that we

44:29

value this. And as I said, it helps

44:32

if someone on the business side who was

44:34

respected and influential says so. Empathy

44:37

is important here. Emotional

44:39

intelligence. And then help them have a

44:42

program that helps them get better.

44:44

And by the way, Biosis is

44:46

just coming out with a major book, an

44:48

academic book, which describes

44:51

the approach that

44:53

works for this. And

44:55

then finally, it's important that

44:57

a company also not just say

44:59

it matters, but show that they

45:01

care and will help people develop.

45:03

So you might give people the

45:06

esky or a 360 that

45:08

identifies strength and limits.

45:11

And then help them have a program

45:13

that helps them get better. And

45:15

by the way, Biosis is

45:17

just coming out with a major

45:19

book, an academic book, which describes

45:22

the approach that works for this.

45:25

And I'll give you the steps. Yeah, it'd be wonderful.

45:29

First of all, as I mentioned in

45:31

passing, you want to know what the person cares

45:33

about. Sometimes in my trade in

45:36

psychology, it's called motivational interviewing, but you want

45:38

to know where does this

45:40

person want to go in life? That

45:43

means what motivates them. Secondly,

45:46

they need an accurate assessment.

45:48

So you maybe give them the esky

45:50

360 or some way of evaluating where

45:53

they're good and where they're not so good

45:55

by people who know them well, not

45:58

by themselves. and

46:01

you want them to choose the people who

46:03

evaluate them, but those people know it's anonymous.

46:06

They won't be identified. So they can be totally honest

46:08

and frank. And then you

46:10

look at that diagnosis and the person looks

46:12

at it and then connects the dots. What

46:16

will, what improvement could I make that would

46:18

help me get where I wanna go? That's

46:21

highly motivating. Then you

46:23

wanna help that person think

46:27

of a particular sequence, behavioral

46:29

sequence they can reinforce

46:33

in themselves. One of

46:35

the bad habits of executives and

46:37

managers and leaders is poor listening.

46:40

Someone comes in, starts talking and

46:42

the leader takes over the conversation.

46:44

Doctors do it, parents do it,

46:46

teachers do it. And it

46:49

means you don't really understand the other person.

46:51

No, listen. So if you

46:53

wanna get better, you say, okay, when someone comes

46:55

in, I'm gonna listen to them, say what I

46:57

think they mean, and then say what I think.

47:00

So that's a big behavior

47:02

change. Please do this. Cross

47:04

your arms. Just cross your arms. Okay.

47:07

Everybody cross your arms and now cross them

47:09

the other way with the other arm on

47:11

top. I know, it's unnatural. It's all. This

47:14

feels uncomfortable. And that's what it's like to

47:16

change a habit. And

47:19

we're talking about habit change. And so at

47:21

first it might be awkward, but

47:23

the more you practice, the easier it gets. So

47:26

sustained practice is a very

47:28

important part of this. And you want the organization to

47:30

help you. I know some organizations, for

47:32

example, have monthly meetings where people talk about

47:34

their goal, problem they've had.

47:37

Sometimes it helps to have a coach or

47:39

some learning partner who will help you through

47:41

hard times. But that

47:43

changes your brain. That's

47:46

very important. It's deep learning at

47:48

the neural level. And that will stay with

47:50

you through life. Boy, I'll

47:53

just ask people seven years later who

47:56

go through an evaluation where they work

47:58

now. People don't even

48:00

know what they tried to change. And

48:02

he finds that what they changed years

48:05

ago has still stayed. Yeah.

48:09

Wonderful sharing of wisdom,

48:12

Daniel, which I can relate to as

48:14

well, because I think all

48:16

of us, Solvazesh, will be a

48:18

much better hub just applying some

48:20

of those principles across their management

48:22

teams and at scale.

48:25

Now I'd like to point

48:27

to a topic which is

48:29

always at the core of the passive issue discussion

48:31

purpose. Many of the discussions, conversations

48:34

I had, focus on this

48:36

idea of finding and connecting wealth

48:38

to a higher and individualized

48:41

purpose and meaning. As

48:43

you've discussed in your book, meaningful work helps

48:45

us get into and stay

48:48

in our optimal zone. So

48:50

you talk actually about the small p and the

48:52

big p of purpose as well. So I love

48:54

you to ask about all

48:56

important purpose and meaning is

48:59

to us, finding and

49:01

consistently being in an optimal zone and

49:03

all would you call your listeners to

49:06

shape their own purpose, how to do

49:08

that? So as

49:11

you say, purpose is absolutely

49:13

important because it's inspiring. It's

49:16

a higher purpose. It's a higher sense of

49:18

what we're doing. How are we helping the

49:20

world become a better place in some sense?

49:23

And can you as a leader communicate

49:25

that in a way where the

49:27

listener knows you mean it because you

49:30

feel it too. And

49:32

can you communicate in a way where

49:34

it lifts that other person? Yes.

49:37

And that's what's so important I think. So I

49:39

think being an inspiring leader

49:43

means that you get the best motivation

49:45

out of a person because

49:47

they feel what they're doing has

49:49

meaning, has purpose, very

49:52

important. So would you help people

49:54

defining their own purpose? Would it

49:57

be the practical advice? Oh, that's

49:59

interesting. Yes. So, you

50:01

know, I started the book emotional intelligence talking

50:03

about a bus driver in New York City

50:05

Uh-huh. Yes a guy who when

50:07

you got on his bus, he looked at you.

50:09

He spoke to you He talked to everyone on

50:12

the bus while they're on it. Yes, and you

50:14

got off feeling better Yeah, only when he died

50:16

and his obituary was New York Times. I find

50:18

out he had fans His

50:21

name was golden brown. Yes, I

50:23

got 3,000 letters accommodation. Not one complaint.

50:25

Yes, and he

50:28

saw What he

50:30

did on the bus as part of his

50:32

purpose his purpose. He was a pastor of

50:34

a church Yeah, and he saw himself as

50:36

tending to his flock Had

50:38

nothing to do with the mission statement of the

50:40

New York Transit Authority getting many people that where

50:43

they want on time Had everything

50:45

to do with what had meaning for him.

50:47

Yeah, and it was contagious. No,

50:49

I love this story I read the book as well.

50:51

It's a wonderful story and And

50:54

from time to time you meet such people

50:56

in very different places I love connect with

50:58

such people you you feel it in the

51:00

first second actually So, you

51:03

know or coming almost to the end Daniel

51:06

we are the very exciting time when it

51:08

comes to technology innovation, of course Being

51:11

someone working in tech for 40 years. You you

51:13

see where I'm coming where I'm going to write

51:16

I want to talk about AI a little bit

51:18

artificial intelligence And

51:20

love to you know, I'm interested in your

51:22

suits on AI in this capability

51:24

in a way I could help People

51:27

that skill in the area of

51:29

emotional intelligence, you know I recently

51:31

had Martin sitting man on my

51:33

podcast and he's using AI

51:36

with some Chinese students who developed a

51:38

what he called Ask Martin with AI

51:40

chatbot Responding, you

51:43

know responding like Martin actually to his

51:45

to his patients or people were doing it

51:48

What is your own? View

51:50

and opinion on what AI can do

51:53

or cannot do when it comes to

51:55

emotional intelligence It's a very

51:57

important question. I actually just asked readers

51:59

of my LinkedIn newsletter that question.

52:01

Yes, I want to know their experience.

52:04

My friend Marshall Goldsmith, who's

52:06

a famous executive coach just

52:08

made an AI avatar of

52:10

himself. And I

52:13

think it's on one hand exciting. And on the

52:15

other hand, I have extreme doubts. The

52:18

doubts are these. An

52:20

AI is a language learning

52:22

program, it actually has no

52:24

emotion. It can't be

52:26

self aware, emotionally, it doesn't have emotion.

52:29

It can't manage emotions, doesn't have them.

52:32

It can mimic empathy very well, probably.

52:36

But does it have the same resonance as

52:38

a real human leader? I suspect

52:41

not. And I think

52:43

that there are intangibles in leadership

52:46

that AI may never replace.

52:49

Maybe it will help you learn emotional

52:53

intelligence to some extent. I

52:55

don't think it will inspire you. I don't

52:58

think that it will motivate you

53:00

in the best way. It might

53:03

try to mimic someone who does that. Yeah.

53:06

I don't know that it will feel the

53:08

same. It's an open question. Right

53:10

now I'm a little doubtful. I hear

53:12

you. And obviously we are still early on, but

53:15

it'd be wonderful to see the feedback

53:17

of your readers, but also the people

53:19

who practice or use AI as

53:21

a coach or as a

53:23

therapist even actually in some

53:25

places in the world. My

53:27

very last question, Daniel, someone

53:30

which I love reading the books of and also I've

53:33

been meeting once actually in my

53:35

life, Clayton Christensen, in

53:37

his famous book, Oh, Will

53:39

You Measure Your Life? discusses the

53:42

importance of investing relationships with the

53:44

people who matter the most. And

53:46

he said, don't worry about the

53:48

level of individual prominence you have

53:50

achieved. Worry about the individuals

53:52

you have helped become better people. This

53:55

is where the real meaning comes. So Daniel, to

53:57

close this episode together, I'm going to start with

53:59

you. I'd like to ask you the way you

54:01

define success with your own life, what

54:04

does success look like for you? That's

54:07

interesting. So I

54:09

think that he's quite right, that

54:11

it's the people you've helped along. As

54:15

a writer, and I come in, I lecture

54:17

to companies and so on, then I leave.

54:20

So occasionally someone comes up to me and says,

54:22

you know, you changed my life. That

54:25

is a reward. And

54:28

I think that our personal

54:31

relationships matter enormously in what

54:33

is satisfying in life ultimately. But

54:36

helping people in one way or another,

54:38

I think is the very best way

54:40

to satisfaction. That's

54:43

a wonderful way to close the session. So

54:46

much wisdom and so many

54:48

wonderful practices speaking from

54:50

the heart to the heart. If

54:53

you look around, you will see

54:55

that the most effective leaders are all

54:57

alike in one crucial way. They

55:00

all have a high degree

55:02

of emotional intelligence. It's

55:05

what helps them successfully catch teams, manage

55:08

stress, deliver feedback, and

55:10

collaborate effectively with others. In

55:13

fact, emotional intelligence is

55:15

the largest single predictor of

55:17

success in the workplace.

55:21

It is critical that we take the time to

55:23

focus on building up our AI skills so

55:25

we can help connect with and lead

55:27

others more effectively, learn

55:30

how to manage your own emotional state.

55:34

I'm Jean-Philippe Gorteau. You've been listening to

55:36

the Positive Leadership podcast. You've

55:39

enjoyed the episode, then please do leave

55:41

us a comment or a five-star rating

55:43

or share it with many friends. Next

55:47

episode, I'll be talking to Dr.

55:49

Caroline Liff, creator of

55:51

the Neurocycle Method, about how

55:53

to use your mind to change the

55:55

brain and find

55:57

mental peace. And make sure

55:59

you subscribe. cry so you can listen as

56:02

soon as it comes out. Thanks

56:04

so much for listening and goodbye.