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PODCAST. The new year

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is all about new. Joseph I

0:33

feel like this past week and the past few

0:35

weeks in hip-hop have been pretty wild. How

0:38

would you describe it? Chaos. Just

0:40

utter, utter chaos. That's

0:42

Joseph Ferguson. He's a TikTok host

0:44

and producer at The Post. And

0:46

like me, he's been glued to

0:48

his phone watching one of the

0:50

biggest beefs in rap history unfold

0:52

in real time. For

0:55

the uninitiated, a hip-hop beef is

0:57

like a competition. Rappers

1:00

release songs called diss tracks that

1:02

show off their lyrical prowess by

1:04

essentially insulting the other rapper. These

1:08

feuds are an essential part of hip-hop culture.

1:10

Rap battles have been around since the dawn

1:12

of the genre 50 years ago. But

1:15

this beef in particular has

1:17

captivated hip-hop obsessives and even

1:19

casual fans. Unlike any

1:21

other beef we've seen in a very, very

1:24

long time. And that's

1:26

because it's between the two biggest rappers

1:28

of this moment, Kendrick Lamar

1:31

and Drake. Being

1:37

a fan of both of

1:39

these guys for so long, it

1:41

finally feels like this thing

1:44

that's been brewing in the background is coming

1:46

to a head. Even people who aren't even

1:48

invested in rap music, who really only know

1:50

Kendrick for his Pulitzer Prize, are commenting on

1:52

it. So it's just been a real mixing

1:54

of my worlds. Matter

2:00

of Time that is set sands in a

2:02

frenzy. In. The songs in

2:04

their lyrics, they are taking shots at

2:06

each other. They're also leveling some pretty

2:08

wild accusations and these are being picked

2:10

apart by people all over the world.

2:13

And this comes while there are questions

2:15

about the continued dominance of rap as

2:18

the biggest commercial sondra last year, just

2:20

a couple of rap songs taught the

2:22

Billboard one hundred charts. But

2:24

now you see a Zama reinvigorated

2:26

receive listeners hungry for more and

2:28

in be listening from was I

2:30

think dislikes have returned. Some of

2:32

like the core tenets of what

2:35

rap music is has reignited the

2:37

genre in a way that I

2:39

could never predict. When

2:44

the newsroom as the Washington Post

2:46

this is post reports. I'm Ally.

2:48

Hey is Sadie! It's Saturday, May

2:51

eleventh today. Joseph explains how the

2:53

site between Kendrick and Drake went

2:55

nuclear and what this could mean

2:57

for the future of hip hop.

3:05

He. Just of. Before we get into

3:07

the intricacies of this particular few

3:09

disrupt be. Can. You

3:11

just remind us foods Rake is and who

3:13

Kendrick Lamar as like this place. For me,

3:16

they're standing within hip hop and broader culture

3:18

and why it matters that these are the

3:20

two people who are beating right now. So

3:22

let's start with. Drake? Really? quite. Yeah,

3:24

I think do Drake to such

3:26

an interesting phenomenon with in rap

3:28

music. His real name is Aubrey

3:30

Drake Graham for agreeing his middle

3:32

name and I think he's just

3:34

a very unlikely person to come

3:36

out of rap music like he

3:38

is a biracial Canadian child star

3:40

who was on the grassy. He's

3:42

truly transcends almost everything you think

3:44

rap music could be and is

3:46

elevated the genre to some we're

3:48

I think the forefathers of the

3:51

people who had been it. It's

3:53

could. Not possibly. imagine. Drake

4:01

kind of came out in have a

4:03

Say in Two Thousand and Nine and

4:06

he got signed to I'm Low Wayne

4:08

and from there with the backing of

4:10

Low Wage he was like a very

4:12

poppies sad boy era where it would

4:14

kind of like. A it was

4:16

kind of counterculture to rap music at the time

4:19

with and hard and know exactly where my he

4:21

was must be tough and he's like no not

4:23

i'm sad sometimes yes I have as as I

4:25

don't exactly. Know what about contract and you just

4:27

remind us when when he became very well known

4:29

nationally like were hit he's from. How would you

4:31

describe his career. Yeah Kendrick is someone who's

4:34

fum of his incompetence and I would say

4:36

the he's had a much more traditional rise

4:38

with in hip hop good kid Med City

4:40

Eats is put up with one of the

4:42

best albums of all time. not Just Wrap

4:45

and not Just In in his class. Music

4:47

wise one of the best albums of all

4:49

time. Dismiss

4:52

as soon as he.

4:56

Pans out. I remember a bunch of

4:58

west coast legends doctored Fray Games New

5:00

Dogs. They anointed him the next. One.

5:03

And as you said, he won a Pulitzer

5:05

prize. He won a Pulitzer prize Exactly exactly

5:07

some. He's like also accepted not just

5:09

by sir that pacemakers and that

5:11

is a grandfather's and godfathers of

5:13

hip hop but also just. Broader

5:16

culture as and I think that Pulitzer

5:18

as civilians. These is that Pulitzer I

5:20

think crossed him over to a different

5:22

audience. You insist the not just wrap

5:24

fans but literary fans as yeah yeah,

5:26

the broader culture. Yeah. So now

5:28

let's. Get. Into how

5:30

this be between Kendrick and

5:32

Drake. Start ads. Where's.

5:35

The Origin of add And just take a

5:37

sceptic today. right

5:39

to do is in twenty thirteen there's a

5:42

song by books on call control and kendrick

5:44

was featured on his and kendrick kind of

5:46

called out all of his contemporaries by names

5:48

and said i've also spent in the world

5:51

for you guys but i'm the best artists

5:53

here on the best rapper i make the

5:55

best music does wonder that wouldn't have put

5:58

that out and year and While

6:00

Drake never directly responded to it,

6:02

that kind of like started the

6:05

tension between these two. That finally

6:07

came to a head here. Did

6:09

Drake ever take shots at Kendrick?

6:11

So the way Drake takes shots is

6:13

very almost Jay-Z-like. Well he will say

6:15

things that only you know apply to

6:18

you. Oh is that

6:20

what Jay-Z does? Yes. So wait, this is for you. This

6:23

is for you. But no one else knows. No

6:25

one else knows it's for you. And it's gonna

6:27

be a huge pop song. We're gonna be, people

6:29

are gonna hear it on the radio, they're gonna

6:31

sing in the clubs, but only you know I'm

6:33

talking about you. It's like a troll. Yes, yes.

6:35

And it makes you look crazy because you're like,

6:37

he's talking about me. No you're not. Yeah, this

6:39

is like a super popular song in the club. Yeah.

6:45

Okay, so these two rappers started criticizing each

6:47

other in their music more or less about

6:49

a decade ago. So let's now come to

6:51

today, because this feels like it just came

6:53

out of nowhere. Yeah. How and

6:55

when did this rap beef come back

6:57

into you know our consciousness? So there's

6:59

been kind of like a cold war between the

7:01

two of them, but Drake and J. Cole released

7:04

a song called First Person Shooter in October of

7:06

last year, and that really reignited this beef. And

7:14

on the song, J. Cole essentially

7:16

calls he, Kendrick, and Drake the big three

7:19

of rap music, the Mount Rushmore if you

7:21

will. Minus one. Minus one. And

7:24

Kendrick on a later song

7:26

called Like That, it was with

7:29

Future said there is no big three,

7:31

it's just big me. And we

7:33

should say he said some other words in this song which

7:35

we are going to believe. And

7:40

that response was so pointed that

7:42

Drake couldn't feign that he wasn't

7:45

talking about him. Okay, so it sort of

7:47

sounds like at this point now we have almost

7:49

like a championship fight brewing if I'm thinking like

7:51

in boxing terms. So then what was the response

7:53

from Drake to that? I

8:00

think if we're going to stick with

8:02

the finality is not like the knockout

8:04

everyone was expecting spruce more of like

8:06

I'm here, grab my attention, let's do

8:08

this and then in through Drake Passage

8:10

he releases another song before Kendrick even

8:12

response and as on was called tailor

8:14

Made. Now that song is interesting because

8:16

there's like a I element to it's

8:18

like he had he reenacted to Pot

8:20

and Snoop Dogs voice on the song

8:23

using a I. So. He

8:25

basically uses technology to minute

8:27

two. Packs a class on his saw

8:29

the as we've got into lox acquire is

8:31

not a lie rice. On that.

8:34

Sunny. South and seem very

8:36

controversial right? One because that

8:38

is one of Kendrick idols the heels

8:40

of a point at very pointed and

8:42

in the song he's he's using the

8:44

boys have to park to encourage him

8:46

to district. I. See So

8:48

it's like this mess with the see less of others.

8:51

The response I mean is that even legal? So

8:53

the to about the states came to him

8:55

and made him take down that song. He

8:57

took down the songs. Snoop Dogg really hasn't

8:59

commented on the use of it, but it's

9:02

It is no longer on streaming and it

9:04

has no longer on any official p Today's.

9:08

That's an enema. Things got really crazy

9:10

and it eventually lads a contract coming

9:12

out with a bunch of songs. So

9:14

just walk me through what happened after

9:16

that solitaire. May turn out so what

9:18

happens next? I think one of the

9:21

most like pivotal parts of his entire

9:23

be that the last ten years drink

9:25

drops his first a song pushups and

9:27

then we get two weeks of total

9:29

silence and kendra it's a bit entire

9:31

time. Drake is trolling him on Instagram

9:33

posting pictures of Pinpricks manager hosting means

9:35

like a hit, pictures of himself into

9:37

paths chain I'm is kinda like high

9:40

school trolling. they've Yeah, absolutely absolutely. And.

9:44

Then finally Kendrick releases euphoria. a six

9:47

and a half minutes says scathing take

9:49

down Drake ladies a double the wage

9:51

or whether to death in that it's

9:53

an idiot and make fact. Everyone

9:56

has a Wow! This is what we were waiting for.

9:59

That. I think three. That be that Drake was

10:01

I was on call Family matters and as

10:03

a ladder activists is make lilies don't even.

10:05

Go as a oh good a plan on any

10:07

trees. He sought a

10:10

video for it. He did of the song

10:12

That Thing seven minutes long and not even

10:14

twenty minutes after that. Kendrick. Comes

10:16

again. With. A song called

10:18

meet the Goals and Meet the Graham's. Is.

10:21

A letter to every single one of drinks Nuclear

10:23

family. oh my gosh can be the talking to

10:25

his son about how it how his dad is

10:27

is a bad guys is is my all about

10:29

how are you Must be sad that you raised

10:31

him. To

10:34

say. That

10:40

it would adding insult everything. Devastating. Just

10:42

have to get some more. Just

10:44

broadly speaking about some of the

10:46

criticisms: insults the content attorney songs

10:48

and what is it that they're

10:50

saying about each other that has

10:52

gotten so many people's attention? Well

10:54

I think so too. There's there's. All

10:57

kinds of wild accusations being thrown

10:59

around I think. Firstly, A.

11:01

For Drakes part, he's accusing

11:03

Kendrick of domestic violence. He

11:09

is accusing Kendrick sound of not being

11:12

biologically his in that he and his

11:14

fiance are separated so these are all

11:16

Wild Wild that uses and the post

11:19

is reached out to both Kendrick and

11:21

Drakes team for a response. And.

11:23

They haven't responded. So for Kendrick parts,

11:25

Kendrick is calling Drake a rap colonizer

11:27

saying he doesn't have a sound of

11:29

his own, but he goes to Different Black

11:32

a touchstone some of Cancer uses. their

11:34

sound, uses their accents and his moves

11:36

onto the next one to and then

11:38

when you need a few. Sees

11:42

insinuating the Drake has had multiple

11:44

relationships with minors. Sally

11:47

a minor. But.

11:50

Also as his sons of come out after

11:52

the ones we just talked about haven't there

11:55

been even more songs It's and also like

11:57

these are just being released on the internet

11:59

right? Even after the ones we

12:01

talked about the work to more songs that

12:04

came out after that. and these these don't

12:06

have like official rollouts. only one really had

12:08

a music video. these are just being tweeted

12:10

by the artist and problem and put on

12:12

streaming services like these are. It's like single

12:15

song or album or records. Is it just

12:17

they've gone into a studio with a producer

12:19

they like and after they're done they tweeted

12:21

out. It seems like one of

12:23

the reasons this beast has captivated so

12:26

many people as because yes the content

12:28

of what they're saying is silly says

12:30

but it's also touching on broader cultural

12:32

theory Thought the sides any or deceiving

12:34

this question as cultural appropriation that you

12:36

know has little level that Nick Drake

12:38

is being criticized of that by by

12:40

Kendrick. it's a raises the question of

12:43

like who is even allowed to make

12:45

rap music and who's considered a rail

12:47

rapper. I'm wondering if that's also what

12:49

you're. Seeing in your in your observation

12:51

of what's going on. yeah I think

12:53

that like you know, messenger matters a

12:55

lot to. so even to your point

12:58

about who's allowed so to make rap

13:00

music. I think the Kendrick is the

13:02

person who people are more willing to

13:04

hear this from because he's got so

13:06

much somebody passes from Forefathers Israel. His

13:08

career has made such authentic hip hop

13:11

music. His critique of Break as a

13:13

call from colonizer is not that he's

13:15

been performed of the black, it's debts

13:17

using enveloping himself in his own culture.

13:20

He says you are from Toronto, be

13:22

from Toronto. Embrace that use. Would they

13:24

have to to be a rap superstars?

13:26

Don't go to. Memphis.

13:28

Atlanta, Jamaica, but. Don't

13:30

you think? there's also that a critique of

13:32

drinks? blackness? Yes in that such an

13:35

interesting point because so we've looked at

13:37

Drake being bi racial. It's not it's

13:39

it's it's is blackness in the sense

13:41

of how comfortable is he in that

13:43

From interviews and from his music you

13:45

see the he's. Kendrick. Read

13:48

that he's not very comfortable being a

13:50

black man. And. That

13:52

comes out in the music when you. Go.

13:54

From Black culture. The Black culture in search

13:56

of something more. on the

13:59

other hand is there another view and I wonder

14:01

what how you're reading between the lines of what

14:03

Drake is saying is that by

14:05

defining and putting in a box and almost

14:07

being the arbiter of what's considered authentic and

14:09

who is you know black enough or not

14:12

that that in of itself is problematic.

14:15

Yes I mean and even even Drake will

14:17

tell you when he goes to these different

14:19

places he meets with the people who pioneered

14:21

those sounds who are

14:24

steeped in that culture and gets the go-ahead

14:26

from them. He

14:29

talks to them he pays his respects he pays

14:31

his homage even when he does these hit records

14:33

he has those people on them too. So

14:36

it's not like he's going in there sweeping

14:38

up the culture and leaving he's actually helping

14:40

and putting these things on a higher pedestal

14:43

because he is you know the international rap

14:45

star that he is. After

14:55

the break the history of rap beef

14:58

and whether this new one is good for

15:00

hip-hop. We'll be right back. Find

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with code PODCAST. Joseph

15:27

can you put into perspective the role

15:29

that rap beefs have had in hip-hop

15:31

and how long have they been around?

15:34

Yeah I think rap beefs have been around as

15:36

long as rapping has. You

15:39

know when People talk about the

15:41

origins of hip-hop in New York which

15:43

started as people battling on a street

15:45

corner and then DJs came in and

15:47

said my set is better than your

15:49

set I can spin records better than

15:51

you can spin records and I think

15:53

that sort of competitiveness has pushed the

15:56

genre forward in making more interesting music

15:58

and saying more interesting things. The

16:00

rat beef it whether or not this

16:02

explicitly but the sense of competitions is

16:04

something that is as in baked in

16:07

hip hop as a snare or hi

16:09

hat is. And. What are some of

16:11

them more prominent be set people might. Now that

16:13

are said Now that I mean the when it

16:15

comes to mind is to park and big. Yeah

16:17

maybe people just know about that because later on.

16:20

Both. Of those rappers and end up getting

16:22

killed. But you know we can't attribute that

16:24

to the beach. but I think their desks

16:27

just put attention on on this like east

16:29

coast west coast rivalries. Are there any others

16:31

that you would say are. Notable yeah I

16:33

think one of the biggest ones the

16:35

com is my mind is Jersey and

16:37

Laws. Like I was saying before, How

16:39

crazy? Will. Kind

16:42

of middle you in an era beef

16:44

we're we're like he'll to say little

16:46

blinds here in their over course of

16:48

i'm a however many albums in just

16:50

like the when the we were just

16:52

discussing crazy and na said some pretty.

16:54

Terrible. Things about one another to the point

16:56

where like V couldn't be sat next to each

16:59

other out award shows there was a lot of

17:01

tensions the even now there's a theory that whenever

17:03

not to something Jay has to come out with

17:05

like a freestyle just a like kind of take

17:07

some the attention of them. It. Seems

17:10

like in some these it's not so

17:12

much that these two people actually hate

17:15

each other, but it's this sort of

17:17

he'll get going back to the boxing

17:19

metaphor at kind like that to right.

17:21

And I think that's what makes the

17:24

Kendrick when stand out so much. because

17:26

see him with wrote that Bp really

17:28

articulate. I don't like you the he

17:30

literally know that as I hate in

17:32

seats for like sixteen bars like this

17:34

is a person will assist whereas a

17:36

lot of other beefs they might not

17:38

be as personal. they might just be

17:40

that competitive spirit like I'm a birds

17:42

fifty cent and cognac when at it

17:44

for a while and that wasn't as

17:46

person will. Not nearly as personal as

17:48

this one is. So how has this

17:50

rat beef differed from ones that we've seen

17:52

before? You know, beyond just a personal nature.

17:54

And the lights cleared the same these two

17:57

people have for each other in a way

17:59

that feels. I'm like the or otherwise.

18:01

Yeah I think the biggest that they may immediate

18:03

comes to mind a scale. Jc.

18:05

Not kind of like my reference for like in

18:07

is a big older beef and they put out

18:09

to songs and a year. And.

18:12

For this, when they put out nine songs in like

18:14

less than a month I think? And

18:16

it's it's it's in comparable and the

18:18

songs a longer does more depth to

18:20

them to coming out faster to better

18:22

produced the better mixed. So just like

18:24

the ease of technology to make music

18:26

and then distribute it has made this

18:28

beef unlike any other. It's a

18:30

one of the big debates obviously as

18:32

who is the most. It's a letter

18:35

artist. what is your take on that

18:37

And. You know, the other obvious question is

18:39

who is winning A. See, I think. Overall, really

18:41

hard to say who the most influential artist

18:43

is. I think if we're talking about the

18:45

pop space in the pop rap space, Drake

18:47

is definitely like he's been around since two

18:50

thousand and Nine. And if you look at

18:52

the Billboard top one hundred charts, Drake has

18:54

the most hit songs at have any artist

18:56

in the charts sixty year history. Wow, that's

18:58

undeniable play as an that, But if you're

19:00

speaking to purists, Kendrick Lamar has been. You

19:03

know, foreign away the more influential rapper.

19:05

so I think it really depends on

19:07

which are looking at which makes the

19:09

such a good matchup. stylistically. Rights like

19:11

used to have the top top rapper

19:14

and you have the top rappers rapper.

19:16

Clashing to see which one would come out

19:18

on top. Of I think the

19:20

big question me as a fan of hip

19:22

hop is whether the city's is good or

19:24

bad for hip hop when he said. I

19:27

think as good. As exit for him up,

19:29

I think that competitiveness is good and rap

19:31

music are. obviously. I don't think the extent

19:33

to which they took it is good, but

19:35

I think Direction Elite the concept of a

19:37

beef I think is good for her part

19:39

because it pushes you to be better. It

19:41

pushes you to want to do more. and

19:43

I think that. Kendrick.

19:45

Being such a student of rap music and

19:48

coming to this conclusion as like I'm the

19:50

best and I'm willing to prove it whenever

19:52

wherever. i think can only make

19:54

his music better only sharpen his pen

19:56

only get better concepts on pick better

19:58

beats and as me look at Kendrick Lamar

20:00

differently. I think that before this, we never saw him in

20:02

a rap battle. We never knew what he would do. Or

20:05

this the darker side of it. Or this the dark right.

20:09

Yeah, and I wonder if also it

20:11

could be argued that it's good for

20:13

hip hop, not so much because of

20:15

the impact it's having on the artist,

20:17

but the impact it's having on the

20:20

fans. Because people are paying attention to

20:22

lyrics and rhymes in a way that,

20:24

you know, maybe they haven't in a

20:26

long time. So there's

20:28

that. But then the flip side of it is,

20:30

you know, there's another argument of this isn't good

20:33

because a lot of people are just paying attention

20:35

because the details are quite salacious. Your

20:37

point about lyrics is such a fantastic point.

20:39

I like the fact that people are listening

20:41

to lyrics and really understanding what

20:44

these rhymes mean. And as long

20:46

as it stays like that, as long as the

20:48

music just stays music, it doesn't devolve into

20:51

violence. I think that's a really positive thing.

20:53

So Joseph, just zooming out, what do you think

20:55

this beef means and how

20:57

it will influence the music industry and

20:59

hip hop as a whole? You know,

21:02

I think that so in 2023, rap listenership

21:05

was at its lowest in a very

21:08

long time. So I think this kind

21:10

of really reinvigorated the genre really, two

21:12

of the biggest kind of

21:14

going at it, I think lit a

21:16

fire under everybody. So there are people

21:18

who are just ready to work and

21:20

ready to create and an audience who's

21:22

very hungry to listen and very hungry

21:24

to like go see shows and we

21:26

support their favorite acts. Yeah. And

21:29

it seems like part of it too

21:31

is that so many people now are

21:33

also just keyed in on this and

21:35

paying such close attention to the lyrics

21:37

and the words and all of

21:39

these choices and that that also is like

21:41

the audience is influencing the

21:44

audience. It's

21:46

made a much more savvy audience too, where

21:48

like not only the words and the lyrics,

21:51

but who's featured on what song, who's featured

21:53

on whose album, who they aligned with, it's

21:55

really put breathe the new life

21:57

into rap music, I think. Well,

22:05

Joseph, thank you so much for joining and explaining all

22:07

this. Of course. Thank

22:09

you for having me.

22:13

Joseph Ferguson is a TikTok producer and

22:15

host for The Post. On

22:17

Tuesday, a security guard was shot

22:20

outside of Drake's mansion in Toronto

22:22

and was hospitalized with serious injuries.

22:24

The motive is not known, and there is no

22:27

evidence right now to determine whether this is connected

22:29

to the feud. That's

22:32

it for Post Reports. Thanks for

22:34

listening. Today's show was produced

22:36

by Sabby Robinson and Sean Carter,

22:38

who also mixed this episode. It

22:40

was edited by Ariel Platnik. Thanks

22:43

to Janay Kingsbury and Keith McMillan. I'm

22:46

Elahe Izadi. We'll be back Monday

22:48

with more stories from The Washington Post. finding

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