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0:32

I have struggled with loneliness at many

0:35

points during my life. I first

0:37

struggled with loneliness as a child, and I

0:40

still very clearly remember that pit

0:42

in my stomach that would grow the closer my

0:44

mom's car got to school when she

0:46

dropped me off in the morning. And I

0:48

was scared to go to school. I

0:50

was scared of being alone. And as

0:53

a shy, introverted kid, even though

0:56

I wanted to interact with other kids, it was

0:58

hard to do so, and it took a long time to build

1:00

friendships.

1:04

This is Dr. Vivek Murthy, the Surgeon

1:07

General of the United States, and he's

1:09

talking to us about loneliness

1:12

because he believes it's a serious

1:14

public health threat, one that we don't

1:16

talk about enough. When he was that shy

1:18

little kid, Dr. Murthy

1:20

says that he didn't talk about how he was feeling.

1:23

I never told my parents about it in all those

1:25

years, even though I knew that they loved me unconditionally

1:28

because I felt ashamed, as so many

1:30

people do about their struggles with loneliness.

1:33

Loneliness can have profound

1:35

effects on our mental health, but also

1:37

on our physical health. In a new advisory,

1:40

Dr. Murthy warned that it's as dangerous

1:43

as smoking and even more dangerous

1:45

than obesity. Loneliness can lead

1:47

to depression and anxiety, or

1:50

even heart disease, stroke, dementia.

1:53

And this is because loneliness creates a stress

1:55

response in our bodies. It

1:57

has to do with the fact that...

1:59

Thousands of years ago, when we were hunters

2:02

and gatherers, our safety and

2:04

well-being relied on our

2:06

ability to exist in trusted

2:09

relationships with each other, because

2:11

we could take turns watching

2:14

around the fire at night and making sure that no one got

2:16

attacked by a predator.

2:22

Our society has changed a lot since

2:24

then, but our brains haven't.

2:26

When we experienced loneliness

2:29

today, we experienced

2:31

the same stress that

2:33

we experienced thousands of years ago in the tundra

2:35

when we were separated from our group.

2:38

And over time, that chronic stress

2:41

can be devastating.

2:46

From the

2:46

newsroom of The Washington Post, this

2:49

is Post Reports. I'm Anahad O'Connor,

2:51

and I'm your guest host. It's Friday, June

2:54

2nd. Today, a

2:56

conversation with the Surgeon General about

2:59

the surprising public health threat facing

3:01

our nation, loneliness, and

3:04

what you can do if you're feeling lonely in

3:06

your own life.

3:16

I wanted to start by having Dr. Murthy define

3:19

what loneliness actually is.

3:22

Well, loneliness is a feeling. It's a subjective

3:24

feeling. And it's a feeling that the connections that

3:26

we need in our life

3:28

are greater than the connections we actually have.

3:31

That's in contrast with isolation,

3:33

which is a more objective measure of

3:35

the number of people we have around us. Loneliness

3:39

is something that manifests differently

3:41

in different people's lives. It's very hard to tell

3:44

from the outside if someone is

3:46

lonely. It's not just because people don't

3:48

talk about it,

3:49

because they feel a sense of shame around it. But

3:52

it's also because in some people, loneliness can manifest

3:54

as

3:55

sadness and withdrawal. In other

3:57

people,

3:58

it can look like

3:59

anger. being short-tempered or

4:01

irritable.

4:03

So the manifestations are different, but

4:05

I try to actually in my day-to-day life remember

4:07

when I encounter somebody who seems

4:09

to be, you know, irritable

4:12

and angry or unpleasant in

4:14

some way, or who seems to be somewhat

4:17

disgruntled, I

4:18

try to remember that this is a person who

4:20

might be struggling with loneliness.

4:23

And how much do we know

4:25

about loneliness in America?

4:28

I mean, you are the country's chief

4:31

doctor and you issued, you know, this really

4:33

landmark report on loneliness. Is there

4:35

data on how prevalent loneliness

4:38

is? How big of a problem is it in

4:41

the United States?

4:42

There is, and the data tells us that

4:45

it's almost one in two adults in

4:47

America who are

4:48

experiencing measurable levels of loneliness,

4:51

but it also tells us that it's not distributed

4:53

evenly across the age spectrum.

4:55

Some people think, oh, it's older adults

4:58

who are probably the loneliest, but no. It

5:00

turns out that it is young people who are experiencing

5:02

the highest levels of loneliness. Now

5:05

this surprises people because they figure, well, young

5:07

people are

5:08

connected through technology all the time.

5:10

How could they possibly be lonely?

5:13

But whether or not we feel lonely is not about the number

5:15

of connections we have. It's not about

5:17

the number of people around us. It's

5:20

about the quality of those connections. It's

5:23

about whether we feel there are people in our life with

5:25

whom we can show up and truly be ourselves, where

5:28

we can be supported during times of

5:30

distress, where we can be vulnerable

5:32

and open, where we know that they'll be

5:34

there for us and they accept us for who we

5:36

are. That's what we all

5:38

want. You know, I fundamentally believe that as

5:41

human beings, we all have three critical

5:43

needs that are universal

5:45

cross-cultures. We all

5:48

want to be seen and understood for who

5:50

we are.

5:51

We all want to know

5:53

that we matter and we all

5:55

want to be loved.

5:57

And when we feel that from people...

5:59

even if it's just from a few people in our life, we

6:02

may not feel lonely at all.

6:03

But when I think about the people

6:06

I've met all across America,

6:14

who have told me that they struggled with loneliness, that

6:16

included college students who were on campuses

6:19

surrounded by thousands

6:20

of other people, included parents who

6:22

led busy days, in busy workplaces,

6:25

yet they felt very alone.

6:27

So again, this is about quality of connection,

6:29

not quantity of connection.

6:32

Yeah, that really hits home for me. I mean, I can think

6:34

of people in my own life, friends and family

6:37

who I've just grown distant from because

6:40

the world is such a big place, people spread out so

6:42

easily. I have siblings who live all

6:44

over the place. I have friends who've gone

6:47

to distant places, and it's just really

6:49

hard to keep in touch with people and to maintain

6:52

really close quality

6:54

friendships and to get

6:56

in touch with people on a daily basis, even though we're

6:58

so interconnected, we're also, in

7:01

a way, so distant from each other nowadays.

7:04

There are some important drivers of this

7:06

that have cropped up relatively recently in

7:08

human existence.

7:13

We, for example, do move around a lot

7:16

more than we ever did. We change

7:18

jobs more frequently. The

7:20

organizations and institutions that historically

7:23

brought us together in our communities,

7:26

from our churches and other faith

7:28

organizations to recreational leagues

7:30

to other civic organizations, participation

7:33

in all of these has declined over the

7:35

last half century. But

7:37

we also know that technology has had

7:39

a role here as well.

7:42

I'm a believer in technology. I use

7:45

technology. I spent seven years

7:47

building a technology company. I'm a believer,

7:49

but I also know that whether technology

7:52

helps us

7:53

or harms us depends on how it's designed

7:55

and how it's used. And while tech has

7:58

added incredible efficiencies to our lives,

7:59

lives. I do worry

8:02

that

8:03

our phones and our use

8:05

of social media in particular, I think, have

8:07

often hurt our connection

8:10

with one another and have replaced in-person,

8:12

higher quality connections

8:15

with lower quality

8:16

online connections, where even though you may

8:18

have more of those contacts, they

8:20

somehow are less satisfying than

8:23

the higher quality in-person contacts we used

8:25

to have. Right. Now,

8:27

Dr. Murthy, we're just coming out of this pandemic

8:31

that affected people, obviously, globally and had a huge

8:33

impact on our social connections. Can

8:35

you talk about what role it played in this epidemic

8:37

of loneliness?

8:39

I think the pandemic increased isolation

8:41

for many people.

8:42

Many of our kids in particular tell me that

8:45

that first year of the pandemic in particular,

8:47

when they were not in school, when

8:50

they were not seeing family and friends and

8:52

loved ones,

8:53

that was incredibly scary.

8:55

And that isolation really sunk in

8:57

for many of them.

8:58

We're still trying to pull out of that

9:01

and figure out how to better

9:03

care for our kids in the setting of that trauma and

9:05

how to

9:06

care for ourselves as well.

9:08

But we have to recognize that loneliness was a fundamental

9:11

problem in society long before the pandemic.

9:13

We just didn't recognize how profoundly

9:16

it was impacting our health and well-being and function.

9:18

So yes, the pandemic made things worse. But

9:21

if we really want to address it, we have to get

9:24

serious about addressing the root causes that existed

9:27

long before COVID-19.

9:33

After the break, we dig deeper into

9:35

how technology is affecting children

9:38

and teens and how parents can help their

9:40

kids navigate their social lives on

9:42

and offline.

9:44

We'll be right back.

10:02

The U.S. is home to BP's

10:04

largest workforce in the world, and

10:07

we've invested more than $140 billion in America

10:09

since 2005. We

10:13

support more than 240,000 jobs

10:16

here,

10:16

a workforce

10:17

aiming to deliver the energy America

10:19

needs today while developing lower-carbon

10:22

alternatives. See how we're

10:24

investing in America at bp.com

10:27

slash investinginamerica.

10:36

Now, Dr. Murthy, you talked about loneliness

10:39

in children and teens. You're

10:41

a father of two children, you mentioned. I'm

10:44

a dad of two children. Many

10:47

or a lot of kids really relied on social media

10:50

during the pandemic, but what

10:52

advice do you have for parents of

10:54

kids out there who are worried about the

10:56

role of social media in all of this?

10:59

Well, as a parent, I'm worried too. I

11:02

talk to young people all the time around

11:04

the country, and

11:05

they tell me three consistent things about

11:07

social media. They tell me that

11:10

it makes them feel worse about themselves,

11:12

worse about their friendships,

11:14

but they can't get off it. And

11:17

I hear worries from parents as well who ask

11:20

me most consistently whether social media is

11:22

safe for their kids. That's a single most

11:25

common question I get from parents.

11:27

It's a reason why I issued a

11:29

Surgeon General's advisory

11:31

on social media and youth mental health, because I looked

11:33

at the data, I talked to experts,

11:36

I made sure that we went through thoroughly with our

11:38

scientific team

11:40

all that's publicly known about

11:42

the impact of social media on our kids.

11:47

There

11:47

is growing evidence that social media use

11:49

is associated with harms.

11:52

Consider the fact that teens

11:54

who use more than three hours of social media

11:56

a day face double the risk of depression

11:59

and anxiety. symptoms. Consider

12:02

also that nearly half of

12:04

adolescents say social media makes them

12:06

feel worse about their

12:08

body image. This is deeply troubling

12:10

to me as a parent who, like all parents,

12:13

wants my kids

12:15

to grow up and feel confident, to feel

12:17

good about themselves, to feel empowered,

12:20

to pursue their dreams and to ultimately

12:22

be successful. But

12:24

if so many of our kids are feeling

12:26

that their experience of social media makes

12:29

them feel worse

12:29

about themselves and worse about

12:32

their friendships, that is a major, major

12:34

red flag for us. So I am worried.

12:38

To be clear, though, there are some kids

12:41

who do benefit

12:42

from social media use. We know for some kids,

12:45

social media can be a way to connect with family

12:47

and friends more easily, to express themselves

12:50

authentically and creatively. To find

12:52

community,

12:53

especially this is true for kids who

12:56

are groups that have historically been

12:58

marginalized, like LGBTQ youth and

13:01

communities of color. But

13:02

we also know that even for those groups that seem

13:05

to

13:05

have some added benefits, some of

13:07

them are also at greater risk of harm. We

13:10

know that LGBTQ youth are more likely

13:12

to be cyber bullied on social

13:14

media than other youth. So the bottom line

13:16

is I worry about social media because

13:18

while

13:19

it's a mix of

13:21

benefits and risks, the risks are actually

13:23

quite concerning to me and the lack of data

13:26

that we have because researchers have

13:28

not been able to get the data fully from

13:30

technology companies to fully

13:32

understand the impact of social media

13:34

on kids. That worries me as well because

13:37

that makes me worry about what we don't know. And

13:39

that's why in the advisory that I issued, I'm

13:42

calling not only for greater awareness about

13:44

this,

13:45

but greater action so that policymakers can

13:47

step up and actually provide

13:50

the kind of safety standards that

13:52

we need for social media that we have for other products

13:55

that kids use. But I'm also calling

13:57

for action from technology companies which need

13:59

to do that.

13:59

to design their platforms to optimize

14:02

mental health. Right now, many of these platforms are designed to

14:04

maximize how much time our kids

14:06

spend on them. One thing I want to be absolutely

14:09

clear on is we cannot, cannot,

14:11

cannot do what we've been doing for

14:13

the last 20 years, which is to place

14:15

the entire burden of managing social

14:17

media on the shoulders of parents.

14:20

Because this is a new technology, relatively

14:23

speaking, that's rapidly evolving, that

14:27

fundamentally affects how our kids see themselves,

14:29

how they

14:29

relate to other people, how they see the

14:32

world. And it's something that prior generations

14:34

never had to contend with. And

14:36

yet, parents have had to manage this entirely

14:38

on their own. It is time for us to have their backs.

14:41

It's time for tech companies and policymakers

14:43

to step up and take the actions

14:46

they need to take to make sure that these platforms

14:49

are safe for our kids. That's not asking

14:51

too much. It's the very least that we should

14:53

be able to do for parents and their children.

14:58

So, I mean, what I'm hearing as a parent

15:01

is that social media really has a double-edged

15:03

sword for children. Does it make

15:05

sense for parents to maybe

15:08

severely limit how much access their children

15:10

have to social media for their

15:12

own safety? Number

15:14

one, I would say if your child has not yet

15:16

started using social media,

15:18

I would consider delaying the

15:21

age at which they do start, past middle

15:23

school if possible. That

15:25

is easier said than done. It is what

15:28

my wife and I are planning to do for our kids.

15:31

But I also know that it's hard to do this alone. And

15:33

so wherever parents can partner with other

15:35

parents

15:36

to

15:37

put these sort of limitations in place,

15:39

it can not only help parents, but it can help kids too

15:42

feel that they're not the only ones who

15:44

may not be allowed to join social media yet. The

15:47

second thing I would suggest is for parents whose kids are

15:49

already on social media, I recognize

15:51

that that's a really hard thing to

15:53

manage. And it's also hard to know entirely what your kid

15:55

is doing on social media. But

15:58

here, starting a conversation with... with your child

16:00

about social media, about what platforms

16:02

they're using, about how they're using it, what they

16:05

tend to share, what they're getting out of it, how they're

16:07

experiencing social media. That's actually very important

16:09

because as a parent, we wanna know

16:11

if social media is making our

16:13

child feel bad as it is for many kids,

16:15

unfortunately, or whether it's extending

16:18

certain benefits to them. We also the one our kids

16:20

to know what to look out for in

16:22

terms of red flags. We want them to know that if they're

16:24

being harassed or bullied on social

16:27

media, that's a time to reach out

16:29

to an adult, to a parent or to a teacher

16:31

and to ask for help. The last thing

16:33

I'll mention is that for

16:35

parents, as kids are already on social media, they can also

16:38

draw boundaries around the use

16:41

of technology in their children's lives, specifically

16:44

to protect activities that are essential

16:47

for their wellbeing, specifically sleep,

16:50

physical activity,

16:51

and in-person time with others.

16:54

I think of these as creating tech-free zones

16:56

around these critical activities. So for example,

16:59

telling your child that they can't use social media

17:01

an hour before bedtime and

17:03

throughout the night is a way to protect sleep, making,

17:06

for example, a dinnertime, a time where

17:08

the family is together, but where people

17:10

are not using social media, both kids

17:12

and adults. These are all ways

17:14

that we can create tech-free zones for our kids.

17:17

Again, none of this is easy. And it's one

17:19

of the reasons why I'm calling for action from

17:22

lawmakers as well as from technology companies,

17:25

because we've got to make it a lot easier for

17:27

parents to manage these platforms. And we can do that

17:29

in part by ensuring that they're safe,

17:31

that the kind of safety standards that I'm calling for would

17:34

protect kids from exposure to harmful

17:36

content, from being subject

17:38

to the kind of features that manipulate

17:41

their minds to spend more and more time on

17:43

social media in ways that compromise

17:46

health-generating activities like sleep.

17:49

So these are some of the things that parents can do, but keep

17:51

in mind, this is tough to do alone. And

17:54

wherever possible, when you can partner with other

17:56

parents, we can build strength in numbers.

17:59

Right. Absolutely. Now, Dr.

18:01

Murthy, you've been very generous

18:04

and open about the fact that many of these

18:06

issues you're talking about are things that you

18:08

have dealt with in your own personal life. For

18:11

example, when it comes to loneliness, you've

18:14

sort of put out there that you've had your own personal struggles with

18:17

loneliness. Can you

18:19

tell us a little bit about what that experience

18:22

was like so that our listeners can learn from it?

18:24

When I served as Surgeon

18:27

General the first time around, I

18:30

took it seriously. I worked hard at it, but I made

18:32

a really critical mistake. And

18:34

that mistake was to assume that in order

18:36

to do the job to the best of

18:38

my ability, that I had to put everything else aside,

18:40

including my relationships

18:42

and the time that I was investing in family and friends.

18:45

And that turned out to be a big mistake,

18:48

because not only did

18:50

I not have the sustenance that I needed to

18:53

keep me going to help prevent burnout, which

18:56

I ultimately came to experience during the job, but

18:59

when that job ended,

19:01

and when I was

19:03

without the team that I had at work and

19:05

without the work that brought me meaning,

19:07

I suddenly realized that I had

19:09

no community.

19:13

And I felt ashamed about that. I felt

19:15

embarrassed to reach out to friends at

19:17

that time, even though I was feeling lonely, because I

19:19

felt like I hadn't exactly been there for them during

19:22

the last few years. And I'm grateful

19:24

that it was my wife, Alice, who recognized

19:27

what was going on and said to me, you know,

19:30

you're lonely, you don't have a community, this is

19:32

something we need to do something about. And

19:35

so it took time. It took a

19:37

good year or more. I gradually

19:39

was able to climb out of that hole. You know,

19:41

I did it because

19:43

people like my wife, Alice, continued

19:45

to believe in me, even though at times I

19:48

had lost faith in myself. And

19:50

that's what loneliness does, is it erodes your sense

19:52

of self-esteem and self-worth.

19:55

But my parents and my sister, they also,

19:57

they called me every day to check on me and

19:59

to write. remind me how much they

20:01

loved me. And there were some friends

20:04

also who recognized what was happening to me. And

20:07

they decided that they were going to step in.

20:14

Two friends of mine, in particular, Sunny and Dave, they

20:16

got together with me and we decided to form something

20:19

called a mowai, which is an

20:22

old Okinawan tradition. But it's

20:24

a tradition where young people come together and they

20:26

make a commitment to be there for one

20:28

another. But we realized that despite being

20:30

good friends for years, we rarely saw each other. We

20:32

rarely talked to each other because we lived in different cities

20:34

and we didn't make it a priority. So that

20:36

day, the way that we had this conversation

20:39

about our friendship, I still remember

20:41

we were in Colorado and Colorado Springs walking

20:44

around a pond.

20:45

And we just looked at each other and we said, this

20:47

time has to be different. And we made a commitment

20:50

in that moment, standing by the water

20:52

of that lake. And we said, going

20:54

forward, we're going to video conference

20:56

once a month. We're going to be fully present, not

20:58

distracted by our devices. And we're going

21:01

to talk about the stuff that really matters to us. So we

21:03

don't talk about with friends often enough, our

21:05

health, our relationships, our finances,

21:08

and anything else that's scaring us or worrying us.

21:10

We're going to be there for one another.

21:13

That mowai,

21:14

my friendship with Sunny and Dave, that

21:16

saved me over the years it followed.

21:19

So I know what it feels like

21:21

to struggle with loneliness.

21:23

I also know what it feels like to be lifted up.

21:26

Now, I'm curious, if

21:28

someone is listening to this, you know, and they're really

21:30

taking this message to heart, and

21:32

perhaps they're out there feeling lonely, or,

21:35

you know, they have a friend or

21:37

a loved one who they suspect is struggling

21:39

with loneliness, what advice do you

21:41

have for them? Well,

21:43

first, what I would say is that if you are struggling with

21:45

loneliness,

21:46

know that you are not broken and you are not

21:48

the only one. Many of us,

21:51

if not all of us at some point in our lives, will

21:53

struggle with loneliness. And it's important

21:55

that you know that this is a very

21:57

common and normal feeling that people go

21:59

through.

22:00

The second thing I would say

22:03

is to recognize that sometimes small

22:05

steps can make a big difference in how connected

22:08

we feel.

22:09

Simply, for example, spending 15 minutes a

22:11

day reaching out to

22:13

people we care about.

22:14

It could be a phone call or

22:17

a video conference with a family member or a friend.

22:20

This might seem like a little amount of time, but

22:22

it can make a big difference in how connected we feel.

22:25

And often we'll find that the person we're reaching

22:27

out to is also feeling disconnected and

22:30

lonely, given that so many people are.

22:32

Third thing I would remind you of though is there

22:35

is something that we all have in our possession

22:38

that gives us the ability to stretch time.

22:40

And that is our attention.

22:43

When we are talking to a friend, a family

22:45

member, a work colleague,

22:47

and when we put aside our devices and give

22:49

them the

22:50

benefit of our full attention,

22:52

it can make five minutes of conversation

22:54

feel like 30 minutes.

22:56

It can really enrich

22:58

our experience and deepen our connection. Yet

23:00

so many times we do what

23:02

I am not proud to say I

23:05

have done, which is when I'm catching up with a friend,

23:07

somehow I find my hand reaching into my pocket.

23:09

And before I know it, I'm refreshing my

23:11

inbox. I'm looking at the scores on ESPN.

23:14

I'm looking at the news.

23:16

So giving people our full attention, putting

23:18

our devices away when we're talking to

23:21

family members or friends or coworkers, that will

23:23

change how you feel

23:24

about the interaction. So the

23:26

key is that

23:28

small steps can make a big difference when

23:30

it comes to how connected we feel. And

23:33

we all will go through these up and down cycles

23:35

of feeling connected and feeling lonely. But

23:38

if we recognize that we're not the only

23:40

ones going through that, if we can summon

23:42

the courage to reach out to others

23:45

for that 15 minutes a day and to be present

23:47

and to find small moments to

23:49

serve one another, that can make a

23:51

big difference in helping us rebuild connection

23:54

in our lives. Thank you.

24:00

Well, Dr.

24:01

Murthy, on that note, thank you so much for joining us

24:03

today. I'm so glad that

24:05

we had this conversation. I really enjoyed

24:07

it. Dr.

24:11

Vivek Murthy is the Surgeon General of

24:13

the United States. That's

24:18

it for Post Reports. Thanks for listening.

24:21

Today's show was produced by Ariel

24:23

Plotnick. It was edited by Maggie

24:25

Penman and mixed by Sean Carter.

24:29

Our team includes Maggie Penman, Reena

24:31

Flores, Ted Muldoon, Martine

24:34

Powers, Alahe Azadi, Monica

24:37

Campbell, Eliza Dennis, Alana

24:39

Gordon, Ariel Plotnick, Arjun

24:42

Singh, Jordan Marie Smith, Renny

24:45

Svirnovski, Sabby Robinson,

24:47

Emma

24:48

Talkoff, Sean Carter, and

24:50

Renita Jablonski. I'm Anahat

24:52

O'Connor, and we'll be back on Monday with

24:54

more stories from The Washington Post.

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