0:00

This podcast is supported by Instagram.

0:02

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0:04

keep their teen safe online. Help teens

0:06

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0:08

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0:28

Over the weekend, protests erupted

0:30

across China on

0:31

a scale that the country hadn't

0:34

seen in decades. I was

0:36

completely surprised. I I mean,

0:38

I've been covering China for for

0:40

years. And when I saw the

0:43

videos, of the protests in

0:45

Shanghai. I I

0:47

for a second didn't believe that those were real.

0:50

Lilly Kuo is the China bureau chief

0:52

for the host. she's been covering protests

0:54

in major cities like Beijing and

0:57

Shanghai. And as these

0:59

protests have spread to more rural areas,

1:06

At first, people were angry about

1:09

China's zero COVID policy.

1:11

The Chinese government enforces very

1:14

strict lockdown and testing rules,

1:16

which they say is to prevent the spread

1:18

of COVID, but then the protests

1:21

became about much more.

1:23

This

1:23

is really remarkable because in

1:26

China, you know, dissent is

1:28

pretty controlled and put down quickly.

1:31

There are still protests against specific policies

1:34

but they're very rarely is protests against

1:36

the leaders directly or the system.

1:40

From

1:40

the newsroom of the Washington Post, this

1:43

is post reports. I'm Elahi

1:45

Izadi. It's Monday, November

1:47

twenty eighth. Today, what

1:50

life has been like under zero

1:52

COVID, the backlash against

1:55

this policy, and what these

1:57

protests could mean for the future

1:59

of

1:59

minus leadership.

2:04

Lily,

2:06

can you tell us about what

2:08

led up to this moment? What set these

2:10

protests off?

2:13

The immediate spark for these protests

2:15

was a fire in Arimchi,

2:17

the capital of Xinjiang on Thursday night.

2:20

There was a fire in this apartment

2:22

building that engulfed the building

2:25

and killed ten people including three

2:27

children. When the fire

2:29

happened, there were videos that

2:32

were circulating on social media that showed

2:34

the fire trucks at a kind of at

2:36

a at a distance to the building, and the

2:39

water that they were spraying didn't quite reach

2:41

the building. And so that started

2:43

a lot of speculation and questions about why

2:45

weren't the trucks able to get closer enough,

2:47

why weren't they able to get there faster. People

2:50

were questioning whether the but

2:52

residents weren't able to escape the fire

2:54

because of these lockdown measures. In

2:56

a press conference, the local

2:58

officials said that that was not the case, that

3:00

the fire trucks were not unable

3:03

to get there in time or closer because of the COVID

3:05

restrictions, but because there were too many

3:07

cars

3:07

parked along this road

3:09

so they couldn't get closer And

3:11

then they also said that in the apartment,

3:13

the fire escape doors were open and the residents could

3:15

come and go, but it was just that some residents

3:18

their ability to save themselves

3:20

was too weak and they didn't escape.

3:23

So of course, these comments created

3:25

sort of even more anger over

3:28

the response, and people also came

3:30

back and said, well, the reason why there were all those cars

3:32

parked in the road is because so many

3:34

people have been sent to quarantine, so their their cars

3:37

are left there and they haven't been able to move them.

3:39

Lily,

3:39

first, can you just remind us

3:42

what China's zero COVID

3:45

policy has been. China's

3:47

zero COVID policy since the beginning

3:49

of the pandemic has been to cut off transmission

3:52

as quickly as possible, isolate

3:55

infections and isolate close contacts.

3:58

they've

3:58

been doing this through tight

3:59

border controls,

4:02

mass PCR

4:03

testing

4:04

and lockdowns.

4:06

And

4:07

so how does that play out for the lives

4:09

of the average citizen? What

4:11

does this look like that this sort of policy?

4:14

it's

4:14

usually disruptive and very exhausting

4:16

for residents in a way that think is really difficult

4:19

to understand from the outside.

4:21

So

4:23

with the lockdowns, kind of at any point,

4:25

your compound your residential compound,

4:28

your apartment complex, can be locked down

4:30

or you could be in shopping mall where there suddenly an

4:32

infection in the shopping mall gets locked down in

4:34

your inside. The lockdown measures can

4:36

affect you very suddenly and very

4:38

dramatically. And that's sort of what one extreme

4:41

people also get sent to these quarantine

4:43

centers when they're not sick. or

4:46

they are not really

4:48

even at risk of being infected, and they

4:50

don't know when they can leave the conditions

4:52

at some of these places are really bad. And then

4:54

there's just sort of day to day disruptions where

4:57

you need to get tested several times a week. You

4:59

can't find a testing center. And so

5:01

people just sent in these circles round and round

5:05

all for the

5:05

sake of this policy.

5:11

And if this policy's intention

5:14

is to prevent major

5:16

COVID outbreaks, has it in that

5:18

regard?

5:19

been successful, has

5:21

it stopped COVID outbreaks? It

5:23

has kept infections relatively

5:25

low in China compared to other

5:28

countries. and the number of deaths

5:30

has been lower. And China does

5:32

point to that as a success and as

5:35

one of the supporting reasons for continuing

5:37

this policy. But the

5:39

issue is that the umicron variant

5:42

is much more contagious and

5:44

the vaccines that most Chinese people have been

5:46

inoculated with are not as effective

5:49

against Omecon. So we're

5:51

seeing a new surge in cases now on

5:53

Sunday. There were more than thirty nine thousand cases

5:55

reported and that was the fourth

5:58

consecutive day of a record

5:59

number of new infections in a day.

6:02

If these vaccines aren't so effective against

6:04

Omicron, why is it that people

6:06

in China don't have the other

6:08

vaccines that many of us around the world do have

6:11

or at least in the United States? Yeah,

6:13

it's a question that a lot of people

6:15

are asking. And China also just approved

6:18

the Pfizer vaccine for use

6:20

in China, but only for foreigners. So

6:23

I think it comes back to

6:26

this issue of the zero COVID policy

6:28

in China being politicized

6:30

and it being a point

6:33

of national pride. And I think it

6:35

has to yeah. think it comes back to this idea

6:37

that that China wants to kind of do this

6:39

on its own, and they wanted to promote their own

6:41

vaccines. So

6:42

Lily, China's zero COVID

6:44

policy, at the very least, has

6:46

represented either a minor or major

6:48

inconvenience. It sounds like for many people's

6:50

lives. What are some

6:52

of the more severe ways

6:55

it has played out both, like, on a macro

6:57

level and have there been any

6:59

other incidents like this

7:01

fire that have occurred?

7:03

So

7:03

on a macro level, it's been a big drag

7:06

on the economy. China's economy

7:08

is already

7:09

struggling under a property

7:12

slowdown and like, use unemployment,

7:15

rising unemployment, and a slowdown in consumer

7:18

spending and things like that.

7:22

you

7:22

know, it's been three years of this

7:24

policy in China. And the

7:26

first year, people felt relatively

7:28

positive about it.

7:30

And then as time went on, especially as the rest

7:33

of the world opened up and China continued

7:35

to keep to this policy, and these incidents

7:37

have piled up. The restrictions have also

7:40

exacted at all on China's increasingly

7:42

frustrated residents like this Beijing

7:44

local. But not only by easing

7:46

the COVID nineteen restriction can people

7:48

live a normal life. Otherwise,

7:51

everything's halted.

7:53

How many people have the savings

7:55

to support them if things continually stay

7:57

halted?

7:58

And even if you have

7:59

money to stay at home every day, that's

8:02

not true living. That's lingering

8:04

on the last breath of air.

8:07

One major turning point was

8:09

a very sudden and dramatic lockdown

8:11

on the city of Shanghai. and

8:14

the lockdown happened. It's such a sudden way that

8:16

residents didn't have time to prepare for

8:18

it. The city also didn't

8:20

really have time to prepare for it. And

8:22

so people were without enough

8:25

food, and it was very chaotic,

8:26

and it caused just

8:28

a huge outpouring

8:30

of anger and frustration

8:33

one of the recent ones was a bus

8:35

that was carrying residents to a quarantine

8:37

center, people who were

8:40

not infected, but they were told they had to go

8:42

to a quarantine center and a bus was

8:44

driving them in middle of the night and flipped

8:45

over and killed twenty seven people.

8:47

different suicides by

8:50

people who have been locked down

8:53

on school university campuses

8:56

or other buildings. Most

8:58

recently, there were mass riots

9:01

at Foxconn factory in

9:03

in Jiangzhou which makes, you know, half

9:05

of the world's iPhones, and these workers

9:08

are basically, basically, protesting the

9:10

conditions of the factory that were

9:12

caused by the zero COVID policy.

9:18

So

9:19

these most recent protests, can

9:22

you describe what they're like? What

9:24

are some of the things that protesters

9:26

are saying? Do they have signs?

9:29

What are those scenes like? So

9:31

over the weekend, the protests were

9:34

mostly focused on

9:36

the the fire in a room she. So

9:38

the protests in Shanghai

9:40

started off as a candlelight vigil

9:43

for the victims in Rimchi. They gathered

9:46

on this road in Shanghai that is named

9:48

after

9:48

Rimchi's a Rimchi middle road.

9:50

and they laid candles

9:52

there and little notes to commemorate

9:55

the people that died

9:57

and people started holding up blank

9:59

pieces

9:59

of paper. And the blank

10:02

pieces of paper, they're

10:04

a simple protest against the censorship in

10:06

China, guess it's kind of a taunt

10:09

because the pieces of paper don't say anything, and

10:11

there's also a way to show that, oh, even

10:13

this even this act where

10:15

I'm not saying anything, even that is

10:18

that is forbidden? Yeah.

10:19

Like a blank piece of paper, it's not even

10:22

saying anything and yet that

10:24

that could be viewed as a threat. Right,

10:26

exactly. And and so some people are calling

10:28

these protests, the a four revolution because

10:30

they're all kind

10:31

of a four pieces of

10:33

a four paper.

10:34

Oh, wow. And what are

10:36

some of the things that people are saying at these

10:38

protests? a lot

10:39

of the things that people are shouting are, you

10:42

know, kind of unlock

10:44

or, you know, lift the lockdown on

10:46

Xinjiang, on China you know,

10:48

we want freedom.

10:50

what

10:55

was

10:55

really interesting in in the Shanghai

10:56

protests is that people started shouting,

10:59

excuse

10:59

me, ping, step down,

11:01

CCP stepped down.

11:04

Well, go go go. CJPCJP

11:10

We just spoke with a protester that

11:12

was

11:13

in Chengdu and posted was

11:15

part of a group of protesters in Chengdu,

11:18

the city in southwestern China.

11:20

And these protests were yesterday. And

11:23

it was interesting because he was saying how

11:26

people were just saying with so many different things and they

11:28

were just yelling so many different things like people

11:30

were yelling about how their jobs had been lost,

11:32

so that they wanted the economy to do better. So

11:34

they wanted, you know, the COVID policies to transport

11:36

that they don't want dictator where they don't

11:38

want, you know, China doesn't need emperors or

11:41

rule for life in reference to Xi Jinping.

11:45

After the break, we talk with

11:47

Lily about the Chinese government's response

11:50

to these protests and what

11:52

they aren't saying.

11:53

we'll be right back.

12:09

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12:29

Lilly,

12:29

what has the government in

12:31

China done in response to these

12:33

protests? So

12:34

far in the protests, In

12:37

Shanghai, the police started arresting people.

12:39

We don't know how many people were arrested.

12:41

One witness that we talked to said

12:43

that he saw that told people getting arrested

12:46

very early Sunday morning. He saw them

12:48

being sort of dragged along the road and and

12:50

shoved into police cars. As

12:53

for official statements. There haven't

12:55

been any statements from the government, and there's

12:57

been no mention in state media.

12:59

There have been editorials in

13:01

the last few days saying how important

13:03

it is to stick to zero COVID? I

13:06

can say that there was a briefing

13:08

today at the foreign ministry in Beijing where

13:11

reporter asked The spokesperson,

13:14

given all the protests, is China considering

13:17

changing the policy. And

13:19

it was really interesting because the spokesman in

13:22

the video, you can see him pause for a

13:25

awkwardly long time. And

13:27

then I think it's almost two minutes. And then he

13:29

says, you know, China's always

13:32

adjusting this COVID

13:33

policy according to the situation.

13:35

And then later on, a

13:37

reporter and the same, press conference asked

13:40

what is the government's response to

13:42

the fact that there were some protesters calling

13:44

for president Xi to step down,

13:47

and the response

13:48

was I don't know what you're talking about.

13:50

I guess just stepping back, do

13:53

you think that

13:55

this could push them to

13:57

reconsider zero COVID

13:59

as a policy. It's

14:01

really hard to say because On

14:04

the one hand, they are kind of backed into

14:06

a corner because they have kept this

14:08

policy in place for so long. The level of natural

14:10

immunity among the population is

14:12

pretty low. So if they

14:15

tried this policy of living with

14:17

the virus, it would cause a huge surge

14:19

in cases, infections, and

14:22

probably deaths because China does

14:24

have a pretty large elderly population, and

14:27

their rates of vaccination are not very high.

14:29

and the healthcare system

14:30

would be very quickly overwhelmed. So,

14:32

in

14:34

a practical sense, they can't really

14:36

let go of it. Now, And

14:38

then also in a

14:41

symbolic sense to

14:43

relax the policy after they've been

14:45

purchased is kind of like saying,

14:47

if you protest, then that works.

14:50

Mhmm. But I guess I also wonder

14:52

if these policies

14:54

are unpopular or

14:56

that they could be the inciting spark

14:59

to then unleash

15:01

criticism about the whole entire system

15:03

of how everything is run. Why

15:06

not give a little? I guess I'm just wondering,

15:08

like, why insist on this on

15:10

this sort of very severe approach

15:13

to COVID, I mean, three years

15:16

into the pandemic when much of the rest

15:18

of the world

15:19

is not approaching it this way

15:21

anymore. Yes.

15:23

It's very puzzling.

15:26

And I think that one

15:29

issue is that

15:33

the leadership doesn't want to admit that

15:35

they were wrong. And

15:38

because zero COVID has

15:41

been seen as an as a policy

15:44

that comes straight from the top, then

15:46

to backtrack on it or to

15:48

do anything that says that this was wrong is

15:50

like saying, you know, the top leader

15:53

the top leadership that that they were wrong.

15:55

And they they don't they can't admit

15:57

that mistake. And I think China's stance

15:59

is to say

15:59

that we'll do we'll do this in our own time.

16:02

And so the the thing that they keep saying

16:04

now is we're always adjusting the policy

16:06

according to the situation. And

16:09

I think one of the reasons why there is a lot

16:11

of anger right now is that in

16:13

the last two weeks, China did release, you know,

16:15

a twenty point plan to to sort

16:17

of loosen the policy, but then there was

16:19

a big surge in cases, and so places

16:22

that had just loosen the policy a little bit started

16:24

tightening again. And so people

16:26

have been through sort of that whiplash.

16:30

How big of a threat is this to

16:32

the the current ruling system

16:35

in in China. I guess

16:36

one of hallmarks of what

16:38

is happening right now in China is that

16:40

the current leader Cizimping has

16:44

really concentrated a lot of decision

16:46

making in himself. And so major

16:48

policies like zero COVID are

16:51

seen to be coming straight from the

16:53

top and from him. One thing

16:55

that is interesting for the

16:57

the timing of this of of these protests in

16:59

this moment is that tennis leader, president

17:01

Xi, he has just

17:04

he has just come out of this very

17:07

important party Congress where

17:09

he

17:09

was given a third term

17:11

as the leader of the party

17:14

and the military. And then next

17:16

year, he'll he'll also get a

17:18

new term as president. And so

17:20

he's he's had this moment where he's basically,

17:23

like,

17:23

the most powerful that he's ever been. So he stacked

17:25

all the top leadership positions with his guys

17:28

he got this

17:28

new term, which

17:30

is breaking with the succession

17:33

norms in China. So and

17:35

it also kinda sets him up to stay in

17:37

power for as long as he wants

17:38

to. So it's really interesting

17:40

that these protests would happen now at a time when

17:42

he is supposed to be at

17:44

his strongest. and I think it's

17:46

pretty given how much

17:49

control the the government

17:51

keeps on society, it's

17:54

it's pretty embarrassing, I guess. and

17:56

it's definitely not something that they want

17:58

to allow. And so, you know,

18:00

any kind of crack in the image

18:02

of their their control or, you

18:04

know, image of their

18:07

great governance, you know, of the country. Any

18:09

sort of crack in that is, you know,

18:11

very unacceptable. Mhmm. But as for

18:15

a

18:15

real challenge to the continued

18:17

sort of rule of

18:18

the continued system. I

18:21

don't think that it's a huge threat at

18:23

this point.

18:25

I'm just wondering how

18:28

this discontent being voiced

18:30

in a place where it's very rare

18:33

to to hear that. How

18:35

that could have ripple effects and

18:37

impacts the system or there

18:39

might only be a very small group of people who

18:41

are willing to say that publicly, but I wonder if there

18:43

are many more people who aren't willing

18:45

to say it, but now that they hear other people

18:48

saying it

18:49

might realize, oh, there's other people who feel

18:51

like me. Yeah, I

18:53

think I think that's exactly right. And I think

18:55

that's what has been so remarkable

18:58

about the protests in the last few days

19:01

as to how quickly they spread

19:03

to other places in this kind of

19:05

environment. And so people that

19:07

we've been interviewed, I keep asking them, like, well, how

19:09

did you hear about what happened in that city or

19:11

that city? Because, you

19:13

know, I mentioned that There's no

19:15

coverage in state media, obviously, but there's also

19:18

no coverage in non state media in China

19:20

and all news and images that

19:22

the purchase are pretty quickly censored online.

19:24

But even with that censorship, people

19:26

still find ways around it. They

19:29

send news of the protests in their

19:31

chat groups on these platforms and even though they

19:33

get deleted, you still see them for a second and it's

19:35

enough time for you to save the screenshot or save

19:37

a copy of it and you know, chain

19:39

something about it and send it on. And

19:42

I think you're right that when you have

19:45

a group that every time somebody

19:47

does something, and goes a little

19:49

bit further and what they say, it

19:51

emboldens another group, and

19:54

they also go further. And so maybe it starts

19:56

off as you know, we want more reasonable

19:58

implementation of zero COVID

19:59

or we don't want zero COVID to, like,

20:02

something's wrong with the system.

20:03

Slowly more and more people are saying things

20:05

like that.

20:08

Thank

20:08

you, Lily, so much for your time. Thank

20:10

you. Lily

20:13

Kuo is the China Bureau Chief

20:15

for the Post.

20:16

The story was produced by Savi

20:18

Robinson with help from Eliza

20:20

Dennis.

20:24

That's it for post reports. Thanks

20:26

for listening. Today's show was

20:28

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20:30

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