0:00

Hi and welcome to the Poultry Keepers podcast

0:02

. I'm Mandolin Royall and I'm here together

0:04

with Rip Stalvey and John Gunterman , and

0:07

we're your co-host for this show , and it's

0:09

our mission to help you have happy , healthy

0:11

and a productive flock . We're

0:24

going to be talking about some pretty tasteful

0:26

options for your flock , because did

0:28

you know that one way to call your birds

0:30

is to invite them to the dinner table Just

0:33

ahead ? We're going to talk about how eating your

0:35

birds is a tasty calling incentive

0:37

.

0:39

How do you identify your call hands and

0:41

what's your criteria ?

0:44

Well , for me it varies based on their age

0:46

and what I'm shopping through . So

0:49

, for example , if I have

0:51

40 pellets coming up

0:53

on point of lay , I'm looking for

0:56

early matures that start laying too

0:58

soon . Those are a call for me

1:00

because they're probably not going to make weight . There's

1:03

a bit of a balancing act there

1:05

between getting

1:08

started when they should average

1:10

for chickens I'd say that's about 22

1:13

, 24 weeks old but some of mine

1:15

want to get started at 18

1:17

weeks and I need them to be five

1:20

pounds . If they're going to do that , chances

1:22

are at 18 weeks they're not going to make the threshold

1:25

for weight . But then as

1:27

they go through their laying , I'm

1:29

looking at the regularity , the

1:31

time of day when their egg size comes

1:34

up , and so , out of the

1:36

original group , that

1:38

list of keepers will systematically get shorter and

1:40

shorter as time goes on , and

1:43

I keep that selection pressure on them all the way

1:45

until two years old , waiting

1:48

on those prime hatching eggs that

1:50

come from the older year and a half two year old birds , because

1:52

they've survived everything they needed to survive

1:54

and

1:56

they were also excellent producers over

1:58

their first year of active laying .

2:00

That's when you get into the good stuff

2:02

They've

2:04

proven themselves . Yeah . And

2:06

by the time you look at it , you're all in that . There's a couple of good

2:08

tour gates in there , but coal doesn't necessarily mean

2:11

, kill Early

2:14

layers you could sell off to a backyard for flock . They'd

2:17

be perfectly serviceable for folks like that

2:19

. So I like those birds .

2:21

If they leave the farm , I want

2:23

them to go to where there is not a male in residence

2:25

. I'd prefer that they

2:28

go to the urban flocks , where they're not going to be hatching or breeding

2:30

from those birds that I call it out .

2:32

Let me throw this out there don't , and

2:35

I may be all wet here , and it won't be the first time in my life , but

2:39

to me , a lot of culling

2:41

depends on what my

2:44

flock goals are , and

2:46

they can vary from year to year . With me , I

2:50

may be wanting to focus

2:52

on improved body length one year , and

2:56

so my culling decisions are based

2:58

on the birds that meet the general requirements and

3:01

we'll get into those a little bit but

3:04

also the specific

3:06

of my birds that I'm working with . Yeah

3:08

, that's true .

3:09

I had to think back through a lot of

3:11

hindsight that I've gained and I did

3:13

have a bad habit of trying

3:16

to select for too much at

3:18

one time and you got to kind of slow

3:20

it down a little bit . Oh , it'll kill

3:22

you .

3:25

You know , if you try to correct more

3:27

than one , maybe two things a year , you're

3:29

setting yourself up for failure right

3:31

off the bat . That's probably how

3:34

I've almost called myself out of a flock

3:36

twice .

3:36

now That'll do it .

3:37

Let's talk about what are some of the outward

3:39

visual cues we can get from our birds that

3:41

say hey

3:44

, this might be a bird that I want to

3:47

pass on for this year . For me , it's anything that

3:50

lacks condition or fleshing

3:52

, but that's because we're a table

3:54

.

3:54

I'm looking for a bird . That's not a bird , we're

3:57

a table .

3:58

I'm looking for the birds that jump down off

4:00

the roost and actually run

4:03

past the feeder in the morning

4:05

and go out and start foraging

4:07

on their own .

4:08

Rangeability is important too .

4:10

That really speaks to bigger to me . Those

4:13

birds who lack bigger are not going to be

4:15

the ones doing that , at

4:17

least not in my experience , no , and

4:19

also just looking , watching

4:22

them , observing my birds .

4:24

If I have four or five birds out in the

4:26

field just fucking around and say

4:28

one of them has kind of a dirty vent

4:30

and I have to wash it more

4:33

than once in her lifetime and

4:36

everybody else doesn't have that same problem

4:38

, for some reason I

4:40

maybe don't want those genes around .

4:42

Yeah , any bird that needs extra

4:45

anything . They

4:47

tend to drop out of selection

4:49

as well here because

4:52

you don't want to have

4:54

a needy flock that

4:56

needs to have . What do some people

4:58

do they do like twice yearly blanket

5:00

warmings to prevent some poopy butts

5:02

, yeah , or they'll blanket

5:05

treat for coxidia the entire flock

5:08

and you got to stay away

5:10

from that blanket treatment .

5:11

I want birds . That and the

5:14

word is sustainable . They

5:16

don't depend on me to

5:18

breed forward true and

5:22

healthy and be vigorous . They

5:24

could potentially go three or four

5:26

years without any human intervention

5:28

if they needed to .

5:31

My grandmother had a 12 year old hen that was still

5:33

laying these teeny tiny little Robin's egg

5:35

size eggs . But 12 years old , she

5:37

was still laying them .

5:40

And I bet you those genetics I mean they're certainly

5:42

not going to change that are in there . Getting it fertilized

5:45

is another thing .

5:47

Yeah , when that hen was two or three

5:49

years old , that would have been prime breeding for her

5:51

. For that individual bird , and looking

5:53

at it on the individual basis and then lumping

5:56

it into the flock averages , getting to where

5:58

you have consistent data to know

6:00

what's happening in the

6:02

big picture , but then the small picture

6:04

of each individual to seems to

6:06

make a pretty good difference .

6:08

Well , I think a lot of it is knowing your flock

6:10

and you're always comparing your birds

6:13

against themselves , not against other

6:15

people's birds and birds in magazines

6:17

. You've got your standard of perfection

6:19

and you've got your goals in mind and

6:22

when I look out at a group of a dozen

6:24

hens , I can go no

6:27

, no , yes , yes , definitely

6:29

. Maybe you

6:31

know , especially if I'm handling them a

6:33

lot . You know you're . The

6:36

way you describe the fleshing elements is great

6:38

, so I'm going to throw you into the bus for that .

6:41

Well , when you get your hands on them , they ought to feel

6:43

like a good meaty .

6:45

I could eat the bird sort of I pick

6:47

them up and I go you're a chunker or

6:49

you're not . I'm

6:51

going to have fun taking you apart to

6:53

cook or serve or no

6:56

. Now on our little For

6:58

me that pelvic structure is huge because

7:00

I have big hands and I have to wear rubber

7:03

gloves when I'm processing and I'm tired of cutting

7:05

gloves and I'm tired of cutting my hands when

7:07

I'm eviscerating . So I'm naturally going to select

7:09

for that body cavity spacing

7:11

between those bones .

7:13

Yeah , that's a very important aspect

7:16

because it ties in with the laying too . When

7:18

they start getting to the larger size

7:20

eggs , you want them to be able to lay them with ease

7:23

. They shouldn't struggle . They should

7:25

just pop in the nest box , sit down , squeeze

7:27

that egg out and then go back

7:29

to chickening .

7:31

Come out , give their little eggsong

7:33

, tell all their friends they found a cool place and

7:35

they should do it over there . And then they're gone

7:38

.

7:39

My boys like to jump in and sit

7:41

in the nest box , and they will start singing

7:43

the eggsong too , and then they'll make

7:45

a giant fuss over their selected spot

7:47

, where they want the girls to lay . Sometimes

7:50

it's where I want them to be , and sometimes it's something

7:52

they thought of on their own .

7:54

It's that 300 gallon kettle waterer

7:57

that we turned into a raised bed planter in

7:59

the front yard usually not in the

8:01

nest box .

8:02

Well , it's got the right elevation , the right soil

8:05

consistency .

8:06

They can nest in on it On

8:08

the other side of two different fences

8:10

.

8:11

Do they never bury their eggs ?

8:13

No , I haven't seen that .

8:15

Some of mine will start to bury them to prevent

8:18

me from finding them , maybe , but we have

8:20

very gravelly soil , so

8:23

that could be part of it .

8:24

They really can't dig .

8:26

But some of the other visual cues that's

8:29

on our little list here . Like rip

8:31

is big into aesthetic details

8:34

so he'll start looking at combs and stuff and I

8:36

was able to put that off for a couple of years while I worked

8:38

on some other things . But

8:40

when you are sitting and evaluating and looking

8:42

at them , those little details

8:45

of the standard traits of what makes a pretty

8:47

and correct bird , you can use that for

8:49

a point to call off of one season

8:52

, Because just one season can really make

8:54

a big difference in combs

8:56

and tails , wingseds , little

8:58

things like that , and it affects a lot in one

9:01

season by making that the focus .

9:04

Mandy , that's really not where I was going

9:06

with that , but you've

9:08

done good anyway . Now , what I

9:10

was thinking about is when I look at a bird

9:12

let's say I've got a pin full of hens I want

9:14

to pick out the less productive birds and

9:17

the more productive bird . I

9:19

look for a bird that has a nice bright

9:21

red comb . If I see

9:23

a female in there whose comb is shrunken down

9:25

and shriveled up and almost

9:28

pale pink like that's

9:30

not a bird that I want in my flock .

9:32

Yeah , she's not going to be productive .

9:34

No , and the same thing for the rest of the hens

9:36

. Is her face bright , red ? Is the skin smooth

9:38

or waddles ? Are they bright , red and smooth

9:40

? If they're not , that's another check

9:42

on the bad size of the line there .

9:45

I look normally you know , clear and bright

9:47

in the eyes . Yes

9:49

, it's a term that I see around and if

9:51

I go around and look , I can you know

9:53

when you see it , you know you go . Oh

9:56

, that's what they're talking about .

9:59

Yeah , if you go out and set and watch with your birds

10:01

and see who's doing what , how

10:03

perky and active they are , your

10:06

leaders in the flock are going

10:08

to be those vibrant , well-colored

10:10

, active , vigorous

10:13

birds . That's who you want .

10:16

What about feather condition ? Do you

10:18

think that enters into a

10:20

bird's productivity or not ?

10:23

Definitely . I see

10:25

that tracing all the way back to nutrition . They

10:27

have access to the basic building blocks

10:30

that they need , so they're

10:32

going to have great plumage , which also means

10:34

they should be producing great quality

10:36

hatching eggs .

10:38

And if they don't , it

10:40

kind of gives light into that individual

10:43

bird , like if I come across one

10:45

whose feathers just look unkempt

10:47

. That means that bird isn't grooming itself

10:49

that well , not compared to its

10:51

peers . So then I kind of want to watch that

10:54

one to see why it might not

10:56

be keeping itself in the same

10:58

sort of condition the others are . And

11:00

that's enough reason too to drop

11:02

that one off the list of contention just

11:05

for not taking care of itself that well .

11:07

Or it could just be something as simple as feeder

11:09

crowding or , on the other hand

11:12

, guarding her off the feed you never

11:14

know . Watching your birds

11:16

know your birds , their

11:19

social structure .

11:20

Do you want the eggs from the weakest link ? The

11:23

one that they don't , because flocks can

11:25

kind of tell you who the calls

11:27

are too just to have a they self select . Yeah

11:30

, they'll self select a bit themselves , which

11:33

can get interesting when you watch

11:35

their little dynamics and who's allowed

11:37

to do what , who's in charge of

11:40

flock decisions they're making for themselves

11:42

. Just watching that can be insightful .

11:45

Another thing that I'll sort birds by

11:48

is the color of their shank . That

11:51

doesn't work on all breeds . Many

11:53

you raise birds with

11:55

blue shanks and some have

11:57

white . But if you have a yellow shank bird

11:59

and all the birds

12:01

are really at a good heavy production and you

12:03

find one that has really bright yellow

12:06

shanks or bright yellow beak

12:08

, chances are she's not laying very well

12:10

.

12:11

Really .

12:11

Yeah , because over a period of time

12:14

those hens are taking that pigment

12:16

that they've accumulated in their bodies

12:18

and in their skin and in their shanks and

12:20

using that in the production of eggs

12:22

and they'll start out bright yellow and

12:24

then over a period of time it'll

12:26

gradually get lighter and lighter

12:28

and lighter and lighter and lighter and lighter . I've seen

12:30

I've had row-dialin

12:32

reds . Should have yellow shanks , right

12:34

. I've had some old hens in

12:37

heavy production that look just as

12:39

white as snow , almost .

12:41

Yeah , all those carotenoid pigments the

12:43

yellows , oranges and red pigments

12:46

that comes from the plants and algae gets

12:49

stored there and then get depleted

12:51

as needed .

12:53

So would you want to look for that

12:55

around ? Like a year and a half old

12:58

after their first year of production .

13:00

They're going to start to fade , yeah , when

13:03

they get . And again , this highlights the importance

13:06

of a properly managed molt , because

13:08

that's part of the stores that need to get rebuilt

13:10

.

13:11

Are you talking about the big , big molt when they're

13:14

about 18 months old ? 18 ?

13:15

to 20 months . Yeah

13:17

, that is the hardest one . That's

13:20

the real proving ground for me A

13:22

bird that makes it through , that drops her

13:24

feathers fast , loses the

13:26

excess weight and then rebuilds

13:28

and gets back into her laying prime .

13:31

Yeah , do you want to go through a managed

13:33

molt , or just watching them as they go

13:36

through it , naturally without you changing anything

13:38

to force them into the molt ?

13:40

I will wait until I see feathers start

13:42

dropping naturally and

13:44

then they go on their crash diet

13:46

or angry with me for a couple of weeks .

13:49

Yeah , but it's worth it . I'm coming

13:52

around to that idea . I used to leave them to their own

13:54

devices , but now I see the value

13:56

in helping them and then using

13:58

it as another parameter for selection .

14:00

Yeah , they may get mad , but they'll get over it they

14:03

will .

14:04

I had a predator event with some ermine

14:06

last week and I got to see

14:08

the inside of the cavity of a few

14:10

birds and they

14:12

have not come up on their first molt yet and their

14:15

abdominal fat was really

14:17

quite heavy and thick because

14:19

I want to study the carcass

14:21

, the structure . Even when I'm

14:23

taking a chicken apart in the kitchen

14:25

or on my kitchen table after it's cooked

14:28

, I'm always looking at different

14:30

pieces of it and

14:32

making sure that it was good

14:35

or not .

14:37

Yeah , sometimes it takes me some extra time to actually

14:39

get dinner on the plates because I'm

14:41

looking at the bird .

14:43

Well , you know , we've been talking about things

14:45

that are visual cues

14:47

for culling birds , and

14:51

John kind of got started on this and then

14:53

we got into that rabbit hole

14:55

situation again . But let's talk

14:57

about using our hands

14:59

to evaluate our birds . Endlin , you

15:02

had a really wonderful post

15:04

today over on the breast group , but

15:07

, man , I don't

15:09

know very many people

15:11

that get into this hands-on

15:13

evaluation of their birds like

15:16

you do and frankly , I think

15:18

the way you do it is the way everybody should be

15:20

doing it .

15:22

It was a long time coming because I definitely didn't

15:24

start off that way , but over time

15:26

, especially after making that decision of

15:28

going dual purpose , I

15:30

started to see what really

15:32

mattered in developing the flock

15:35

towards those goals . And

15:37

every time I've ever been disappointed in

15:39

poultry it's because it wasn't done

15:41

in the breeding , where I would

15:43

have outwardly pretty bird's . But

15:45

then once you got in there and you started dressing them out

15:47

, they were pretty scrawny and

15:50

that hands on evaluation is the only

15:53

way to get past it

15:55

and breed into something better

15:57

.

15:57

Well , you had the unique opportunity

16:00

we'll call it to expand out basically

16:04

a non existing line and

16:06

then select what you know

16:08

you were looking for and then call

16:10

it back down . So

16:12

you really opened up Pandora's box for

16:14

quite a few generations .

16:17

Oh , and it was expensive . It took so

16:19

much space and time and resources

16:23

just to see that through , and

16:25

then I was not prepared for how many

16:27

years it was going to take either . You

16:30

can't fix that much in a single

16:32

season and it has to compound on itself

16:34

over time . So if you go

16:36

out and you see your birds and you put your

16:38

hands on them and you're disappointed

16:40

, don't call the entire group and

16:42

start over . just find that

16:45

one pair , that one tree that does it better

16:47

than any of the others in that flock

16:51

and only hatch from them . Don't

16:54

hatch from anybody else , because a skinny bird is going to breed more

16:56

skinny birds . Just

16:58

find the ones that are incrementally just

17:01

a little bit better than the others and

17:04

put your focus on them .

17:06

And remember , you're not going to make giant leaps

17:08

forward . You're going to take smaller steps

17:10

forward . It's going to

17:12

take some time . It's not an instant

17:14

gratification thing to poetry breeding , it's

17:17

not . You have to be in it for the long haul

17:19

.

17:20

We had to eat our fair share of two pound

17:22

birds before we got to four pound birds

17:24

.

17:25

Let's lift towards that way . No , I'm kidding .

17:28

Oh , you just count how many it takes to put in the crackpot

17:31

, you know you've done good things when you only have to put

17:33

one in the crackpot instead of three .

17:36

John was talking about pelvic spread earlier

17:39

, and he is so

17:41

right . There's nothing worse than trying to eviscerate

17:43

a bird and feel like

17:45

you're sticking your hand in a pen cushion

17:48

, almost . Not only is it unpleasant

17:50

for us to do that , those

17:53

kinds of birds are not very productive birds when

17:56

they're narrow , narrow bodies and all

17:58

pinched together in the rear end . But

18:01

what about , and Mandolin ? You've probably

18:03

processed enough birds that

18:05

you have seen a little bit of a difference in

18:07

the appearance of the bird's skin .

18:10

Yeah , there's variations there too

18:12

, and that can sway by

18:14

the breed , the

18:17

particular bloodline

18:19

and then individuals within both

18:21

categories . There's going to be some variation

18:23

in there , and the differences

18:25

is not only the color of the skin but

18:28

the thickness of the skin and

18:30

how hairy the skin is . I

18:32

didn't know chickens could be hairy . I've

18:36

been out there with a little handheld blowtorch

18:39

singeing off hairs on processing

18:41

day .

18:42

I can still remember . I keep a little click start torch for

18:44

that purpose . I

18:46

can still remember my grandmother processing

18:49

a bunch of old hens and she'd tie them up on the

18:51

clothesline and when

18:53

she had them all plucked and eviscerated and all that

18:55

, and she'd water up some newspaper

18:57

, roll it up , set fire to one another , she'd just

18:59

go down there singing all the hair off those hens .

19:02

Oh , she made her own torch .

19:03

Oh yeah , that was back in the good old days

19:06

, before there was such a thing .

19:08

Well , and correct me if I'm wrong , but I think

19:10

the Cornish Cross were bred away from

19:13

having any hairs , so they don't have to do a singe .

19:15

I don't know , wouldn't surprise me .

19:17

They pretty much don't even have feathers anymore .

19:20

Well , their body's twice the size it should be

19:22

and they have the same allotment of feathers , so the

19:24

coverage is just really poor .

19:26

Yes , so if you're raising

19:28

Cornish Cross out on pasture , it's incredibly

19:31

important they are under shade all the time

19:33

because they will get sunburned and

19:35

can die from it .

19:38

I bet they could . I never even thought of that .

19:39

Oh yeah , you bet you . We've

19:42

talked about the pigment of the skin

19:44

and we've talked about the skin appearance and

19:47

feather condition and all these other things . But

19:49

what about if you're going

19:51

through a bunch of females and you're trying

19:53

to sort out productive birds versus non-productive

19:56

birds ? What should the vent

19:58

look like ?

20:00

Well , how do we cover that without it sounding dirty

20:02

?

20:03

Well , I like to say it should

20:05

look smooth and moist .

20:08

I like round moist .

20:10

If it looks all puckered up like a prune and kind

20:13

of dry she's not .

20:14

Yeah , that's it . It's

20:16

either dry or prune .

20:18

You know it when you see it . If you know your birds

20:20

, I could flip a bird over and go yeah

20:23

, she's good or no

20:25

, she's definitely not laying

20:27

or having a problem with laying .

20:29

Well , and because that rear pelvic

20:31

spread is variable

20:34

based on if they're an active lay or not . So

20:36

if you pick up a female and she's got

20:38

that nice productive looking vent

20:40

that looks like it's active

20:42

and she'll probably also have a

20:44

nice forefinger spread in between the

20:46

pelvic bones versus the

20:48

dried up , shriveled looking peep

20:51

shoot , it's probably going to have maybe

20:53

two fingers , maybe

20:55

three in width .

20:57

Also , when the eggs being laid , you know listening

20:59

for any signs of stress or

21:01

strain or did they just drop it and move on

21:03

? And looking at the condition of your eggs

21:06

? If you start seeing streaking on

21:08

your eggs , you know it's time to

21:10

start looking at the structure of the hand that laid it

21:12

.

21:13

Do you mean streaking like a blood smear

21:15

or streaking like a shell texture

21:18

variation ? Because sometimes

21:20

, like there was one female , I

21:22

end up finding her and calling her

21:24

out because while she was

21:27

laying regularly

21:29

, the egg was poor quality and

21:32

, even though it came every day , there was a weirdness

21:34

to the sheet , almost like

21:36

maybe her organs weren't

21:39

where they were supposed to be on the inside , causing

21:41

an indent and a flat side

21:43

on the egg . Maybe it wasn't spinning

21:46

in the shoot correctly , maybe I don't know what

21:48

wasn't happening correctly , but

21:50

it was a very incorrect egg that

21:52

became consistent . So , like

21:54

distantly poor laying , I'll

21:57

go find that bird and remove her from the flock

21:59

.

22:00

It's the common flaw in my flock

22:03

and it came from my breeder that way

22:05

, and when I got my birds from them

22:07

they very specifically said the

22:10

torpedo shaped eggs .

22:12

Oh yeah , that's a deal breaker too .

22:14

I mean , they're beautiful , they're like 70

22:16

, 72 grams and just

22:19

great .

22:19

They're like really long and they're weird torpedo shaped .

22:21

They're the weird torpedo shape and we're like you

22:23

know , we're just . They're adamant that that

22:26

doesn't move forward . And I agree , they're

22:28

traditionally my heaviest and

22:30

single yokers at the same time . Oh

22:33

heartbreak I know it is , it is

22:35

.

22:36

Now is that when they're in the middle of peak

22:39

production or later on , because sometimes

22:41

I'll see it in my older birds their eggs

22:43

will take up a torpedo shape . But

22:45

they weren't that way the first year .

22:47

It was like a second or third year . And

22:50

that was specific to my first year . That's

22:52

part of my selection criteria . Moving forward

22:54

on my breeding stock , like

22:56

they're , I've already gotten rid of any of the torpedo

22:59

shaped layers . They're

23:01

with a friend of mine a couple of miles away and

23:03

they're just producing fantastically

23:06

for their farm stand and store .

23:09

If they're too long they don't fit a carton that well

23:11

, but usually mine outsize

23:13

the egg carton . It's also a double yolk .

23:15

People like that and I know , and they get so

23:17

spoiled . He's got an eight year old daughter who just

23:19

gives them so much love . That's

23:23

her aspect of the business . She collects

23:26

the eggs and that goes into her .

23:29

John and Manny , I know your thoughts

23:32

and your position on this , but I want to sort

23:34

this out here . What about

23:36

the amount of body fleshing ? Is

23:39

that a good indication of production , or

23:43

is it something we should even worry

23:45

about ?

23:46

So , going into this , I was always told

23:49

that heavy weight birds

23:51

are going to be poor layers . But

23:54

come to find out that poor

23:56

producers are obese

23:58

. They're fat . They have limitations

24:02

on what they can do because of their condition

24:04

being obese , but

24:07

in sharp contrast , you can have a very

24:09

meaty , meaty bird that

24:12

is still fairly lean . Who

24:14

is productive is all get out

24:16

. They're allowed to be meaty . Meatiness

24:19

is not the problem , it's obesity and fat

24:21

that's the problem . That's

24:23

where I've ended up .

24:25

As long as you have the carcass size

24:27

to accommodate all

24:30

the necessary functions , the

24:32

structure that makes it over .

24:33

Yeah , the inner capacity .

24:35

Ultimately , I look at feed conversion ratio . How

24:38

much feed did this bird eat ? How

24:41

much flesh did she or he

24:43

provide ? To me that's important . Age

24:47

is a variable that throws

24:49

everything off , because obviously I've kept this bird

24:51

around for two or three years and fed it a lot more

24:53

food . What

24:55

would have been the feed conversion ratio at

24:57

20 weeks ?

24:58

Yeah , that's important to know .

25:00

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