0:00

Okay, workers that are adapting are adapters, right?

0:04

And people that are eating are eaters, right? So what do you call people that are being resilient?

0:12

Music.

0:19

Hey everybody, Pre-Extern Investigation and Safety Moment, how are you today?

0:23

It's Todd Conklin, it's time... Oh, it's not Safety Moment, what's wrong with

0:26

me? I mean, this is a full-blown podcast. I think I've lost my mind.

0:30

Yes, it's true. My mind is gone. It happened, but that's what happens. It's so good to be back. I was gone so long.

0:38

Holy cow, you don't know this because, you know, the podcast just kept humming

0:41

along. That's what it does. But, man, I was completely out of the world traveling like crazy, which is dumb.

0:51

But we can talk about it later. It was fun. And I got to see so many great people.

0:54

I got to meet a bunch of new people.

0:57

I had an amazing time in Wollongong.

1:00

That Global Safety Initiative Summit was great. The concert was amazing.

1:06

Safety stock, it was great fun. Then I got to go to the Boeing Aviation Safety

1:10

Summit, which was super fun as well.

1:13

I got to meet a whole new people, a whole new group of people,

1:15

and introduce myself to a whole new world.

1:19

It was fun. It kind of sounded like I'm going to sing. I'm just going to break

1:23

into song here in a moment. Which, you know, could happen. That wouldn't be that unusual.

1:27

That wouldn't be that weird. No, things are good. And it's, you know, it's towards the end of winter here in North America.

1:36

I say end of winter. There's still...

1:39

Plenty of winter happening, which is driving me crazy. But spring is nearby,

1:44

which means good times will start happening and things will take place and amazing

1:49

activities will transpire.

1:52

So anyway, for everybody I got to meet new, it was sure great meeting you.

1:57

I had the best time. And for those of you that I didn't get to meet next time, I will hang out more.

2:03

I mean, that's That's a promise. I can guarantee that's going to happen.

2:08

Just kind of hang out for it and wait for it. What else do I have to tell you?

2:11

It looks like there's a conference shaping up in the wind.

2:16

I'll know more about it, but kind of set your sights, if you want to,

2:22

for a classic fundamental approach to human performance with a whole gang of characters.

2:29

And it'll be in September of this year.

2:34

It looks like that's set up more on that great detail.

2:37

I think it's going to be in Santa Fe, which makes me even more excited because,

2:41

you know, that means I don't have to travel anywhere.

2:44

You can come see me and we'll ride bikes and have a great time and all will

2:48

be well. That is a promise for sure.

2:52

What else? I have a little list of stuff I have to talk about.

2:55

I talked about getting to meet all the new people.

2:57

I talked about how much fun I had at the conferences. Got that.

3:00

Talked about the new meeting that we're putting together. Jay and I have just

3:04

been in meetings galore on this.

3:07

I probably should talk about today's podcast because today's podcast is a special treat.

3:12

So you're going to get to meet Lisa Land.

3:16

And Lisa is remarkable. So first of all, you should know that she is currently

3:23

working for the IAEA, the International Atomic Energy Agency.

3:30

And she's in Vienna. Yeah. And she works a lot with their human capacity and human capacity building.

3:40

She is one of us. A great background in human and organizational factors,

3:46

really strong background in human performance.

3:50

And she gets to kind of look at it across multiple cultures.

3:55

And that is what the conversation we have today is about. It's actually a remarkable

4:01

opportunity to get together and just chat.

4:04

And it's always so much fun to talk to Lisa just because she's got it going on.

4:10

Good energy, fun to hang out with, lots going on.

4:16

I mean, it's fun. And you'll hear that in the conversation.

4:20

That conversation is going to be an interesting part of what we talk about.

4:24

You're going to really, really enjoy this podcast. So I'm not going to mess

4:27

around much longer in the introduction because there's lots of pod for you to listen to.

4:33

So just think about what's going on. You might take a note or two that could

4:37

be interesting, but listen carefully to the conversation we have.

4:41

So without any further ado, it's my honor to introduce you guys to Lisa Land and see what you think.

4:48

I think you'll find this to be a super interesting conversation.

4:52

And you can edit, obviously, before it goes online. Easy. Okay, cool.

4:56

Plus, it's such a good way to – I mean, it's just – oh, thanks.

5:00

It's just such a good way to – I'm glad you said that. That would have been

5:03

best. Can I put my feet up? Yeah, of course. Here in the wedding suite. Yeah. It's such a good way.

5:08

It's a good – as Marshall McLuhan said, the medium is the message.

5:16

You – I'm –. I'm constantly shocked at how many people listen to the podcast.

5:25

Incredible. And they're good. I mean, thousands a day. Todd,

5:30

that's amazing. It's crazy.

5:33

But part of it is I think it addresses a need in how they get their information.

5:40

Meaning it fits in our current lifestyle.

5:44

Exactly. And the way, yeah. So they're getting it in the truck on the way to

5:47

the site or on the bus or walking the dog or whatever.

5:52

Because I listen to, so I also have my, so I heard you say, what's the name of the podcast you love?

5:58

Which one? Forgeworks? No, the podcast you talked about. Oh,

6:01

Hard Fork. Hard Fork. So good.

6:04

So I listen, my favorite one, which you will love. Okay. It's called 99% Invisible.

6:10

I haven't seen that one. Oh, wait, somebody has told me about this.

6:13

Oh, you. Listen to it. You'll love it.

6:16

Okay. I mean, it's like— It's all about the nuance. Well, it's about—so the

6:21

premise is that good system design is 99% invisible.

6:25

And it's about how systems influence humans around the world.

6:32

But it's always—I mean, it's just super interesting. Come in!

6:37

I think I have to unlock the door. Okay. And now we're stalling because Lisa is unlocking the door.

6:45

Yeah come in yeah yeah because

6:48

i got i want to get lisa because i'm dying to get this podcast i

6:52

think i'm not holding you guys up from dinner or something oh

6:54

no god no okay you are i loved

6:58

your psychological safety today that was fun yeah it wasn't long enough that's

7:04

it was you know but they never are well you probably went as long as you could

7:09

i mean well that's all they gave you an hour but that that podcast is amazing

7:15

okay i definitely will listen to it 99 invisible.

7:19

Can i ask you a quick question sure of course so

7:22

today it was shown a human system and then i think it was job or organization

7:27

do you remember it was one of the presentations do you see human as part of

7:32

the system i wouldn't make that a triad i don't understand it was kind of an

7:37

uh that's yeah Yeah. Yeah.

7:40

Yeah, I don't. Okay. Good. We're aligned. Yeah. Yeah.

7:45

I mean, yeah. Yeah. You think system holistically. Me too. Yeah.

7:50

I wouldn't think a system would have. I mean, there are components, but all of that would be the system. Yeah. Yeah.

7:56

That's kind of weird. It was a little. Maybe I didn't understand how he intended it, but.

8:01

Oh, I spend most of my day not understanding stuff. So that's normal.

8:06

So. So talk to me about your job.

8:08

This is the most interesting job in the world. It's pretty cool, Todd.

8:12

You know, the same of moving to Los Alamos, taking a Los Alamos job –.

8:17

The idea that you could influence a system from inside the system as opposed

8:23

from the outside looking in.

8:25

It's the same with the challenge at the International Atomic Energy Agency.

8:31

How do you influence all of these member states to get on the same page and

8:41

be respective of their unique cultures and where they are in the process? It's fantastic.

8:50

And probably incredibly complex

8:52

just because nothing's probably the same twice. Is it fertile ground?

8:57

Are they interested in what you have to say? I think I've gotten a lot of ground support.

9:03

So I don't know if you were there yesterday, but this is the first time that

9:07

we've ever had publications on either leadership in the nuclear industry or resilience. Right.

9:15

And that's where I reached out to David Proven to pull him in,

9:21

in the hopes that we could integrate some of Safety Differently principles into

9:27

the way that the agency is doing work with member states. And how's that going?

9:33

I mean. I think really well. They're interested in it? Yeah.

9:36

Well, you know, we're just starting, Todd, but I think, again,

9:40

at the presentation on Monday. The way the agency works is publications are everything.

9:47

Right. The agency sets the whole direction through their publications.

9:51

Their credibility is found in them.

9:54

And the utility of those publications is limited.

9:58

So the real power comes, as you well know, in the application.

10:02

Absolutely. So, yeah, that's where I'm trying to go. But I would tell you the

10:06

single best publication on organizational culture is one of yours. It's TechDoc 1329.

10:15

That is the best cultural maturity document.

10:20

I have companies read it all over the world. On organizational culture.

10:25

Yet, interestingly, that's not the most popular TechDoc on culture.

10:31

It's all safety culture. See, I don't think the safety culture document is as… Neither do I.

10:37

You and I are alike. Yeah, but that organizational culture document, no one can touch it.

10:43

I mean, it changed Los Alamos.

10:46

How interesting. In fact, the whole idea of vectoring left, which is a term

10:50

they used at the executive level, was about the tech doc.

10:54

So TechDoc 1329 builds this little maturity model. Yeah. And you go from compliance to… I remember.

11:02

I can't believe I can't remember. And it finally goes into learning.

11:05

Yeah, learning, right. Yeah. Compliance.

11:08

I can't imagine. Magic chocolate factory. And then what it says is, or what I would do with it is say,

11:15

put yourself on this maturity model. Yeah.

11:18

And there's no wrong answer. Wherever you are is where you are. Where you are.

11:21

The right question is, is which way are you vectoring?

11:25

And man, at least with our community, with scientists, that resonates.

11:30

Oh, my God. It resonates like crazy. I have to look at who's scientific. Because they're like, so if we move towards

11:36

compliance, we're vectoring away from integration.

11:40

And then these lie bulbs go off and they're just like, why hasn't anyone told us this?

11:46

And I'm like, well, no, this document, this is not a secret.

11:49

And it was written 20, gosh, probably 25 years ago.

11:54

Yeah, maybe we're evolving past that as well. You know, this idea that it's

11:59

a continuum removes a dimension of context.

12:05

But let me quote something back to you that you said yesterday.

12:07

Okay. You meet the group where they are.

12:10

Exactly. And this is part of my point. Yeah. And so the continuum,

12:13

I think, is a really good starting place. But once they get to the integration side of that, then the continuum stops.

12:20

So you've got to go to somewhere else. and I think that opens up the ability

12:24

to look much more holistically and to really make some changes. But I think the act of,

12:32

Whoever put that document together, which clearly has to be either Edgar Schein

12:37

or somebody who knew Edgar Schein. It's very Edgar Schein-y.

12:41

It's brilliant in that it sets the stage for the dialogue and it allows any

12:47

member to enter at any place.

12:50

And they're all going to enter in different places. And so what you see when

12:54

you go to companies is you do the senior team and they'll put most of their

12:59

entry points, we're solidly in compliance.

13:02

Well, then the next conversation is, well, we need to move towards,

13:05

vector towards this idea of integrated learning.

13:09

So this is what I was attempting to say a moment ago.

13:14

And I'm glad I listened to make sure that, again, it's this kind of continuum

13:18

process. And yes, fundamentally, we want to move to integration.

13:23

Yet contextually, when we're compliant and there are times when an organization must be compliant.

13:31

So it's more like, have you evolved enough through that continuum to then wrap back around in a very.

13:38

That's beautiful. In fact, one of the things in our world you could say,

13:41

and other people in the podcast may not resonate as much with it as we do,

13:45

is that you can talk about becoming a learning organization,

13:51

for the organization's sake, for the spirit of science, the spirit of research.

13:56

But when you talk about things like security requirements, you can talk about

14:00

things like security requirements A mature organization is probably in compliance with security requirements,

14:05

and there's not a lot of need. I mean, we can make a case that there's huge need, but for sake of this argument

14:12

or sake of this discussion, once you get to compliance and document control,

14:16

it's probably as far as you need to go. Once you get the system so you're not accidentally releasing classified documents

14:22

all the time, you're probably fine. And so some things can live in compliance, and they're fine.

14:28

Exactly. Exactly. And that sort of offered the opportunity then to have this

14:32

idea, oh, well, not all activities are the same and the organization will not

14:38

move at the same rate and will move in different areas.

14:41

It's again, without gushing, I don't know of a better document.

14:46

I'll admit I haven't looked at that one, so I will.

14:49

You know, Todd, this kind of loops us back around to this ecological approach

14:57

to the system where we've been so linear and in an engineering paradigm.

15:03

And that is an evolution I believe we're making great progress on,

15:08

not only in the nuclear industry, but in industry generally.

15:13

I agree. And that is, it's so timely.

15:16

I think it's so critical. And how do we recognize, to your point,

15:21

what must be and works well to be a compliance-based linear process?

15:28

And where do we need to be more adaptive and dynamic in the way that we're operating?

15:35

And don't you feel the answer at some level, at least in this stage of the discussion, is in complexity?

15:42

Complexity absolutely so complexity has become

15:45

really super interesting well

15:48

it's always been interesting it was used incorrectly today though

15:51

with the brilliant brilliant presentation but the rubik's cube i'm sad i didn't

15:56

see that this is complex so it's not complex very that's complicated yeah and

16:02

we we still this again speaks to the importance of nomenclature and let's be

16:07

clear on how we're defining things. Right. Well, that's one of the reasons I use jingo blocks for complexity because

16:14

it's... Because that is always shifting. Yeah, and it's a really super attainable.

16:19

Non-algorithmic... I mean, the biggest problem... You're exactly right.

16:22

The biggest problem with the RubyCube is it's just an algorithm.

16:25

Once you figure the rules of the game... Yeah, once you're good at math,

16:28

you're whipping... That's it. I mean, I'll never be that person because A, I don't really understand the rules

16:34

of the game, and B, I don't care. Yeah, that's kind of put me in that position as well. But I think that notion

16:42

of organizations realizing the difference between complicated and complex, which, you know...

16:49

At the surface level sounds like, well, how many angels can dance on the head

16:53

of a pin? Well, that's actually a huge difference. Huge.

16:56

And if that insight came and we were able to discriminate, again,

17:01

hat off to Snowden, if we're able to discriminate when am I in a complicated

17:06

situation, I can apply those linear protocols.

17:10

And when am I moving into complex space and I need to relax and be more adaptive,

17:15

if we If we can train that, that's like application of hop.

17:19

If we can help develop that in programs like we used to run with the on-ramp

17:23

and the safe, think of how much more agile and aware our workforce would be.

17:30

I've had the most success talking about complexity and complicated by helping

17:36

them understand the resolutions. So a complicated system you simplify. Okay. Right?

17:41

I mean, it's complicated, so make it simple. For example, the solution for complexity

17:45

is not simplification because you can't simplify a complex system.

17:49

The solution for complexity is transparency.

17:52

So you make the complex couplings known. And when we know those complex couplings

17:58

exist, then we can monitor those complex couplings if we need to.

18:02

But it helps us really understand the system. It's a very, very good tool to

18:07

help provide that delineation. Okay, so we'll have to get clear on how you're defining coupling,

18:14

because when I think of a complex system, those couplings are tight and loose

18:20

indiscriminately and dynamically.

18:23

So first of all, yes, sister.

18:26

Secondly, this is the very argument that Martha and I have pretty much with

18:31

great regularity, is that I want the couplings to be tight.

18:36

And Martha says a complex system has loose couplings. The crazy thing is everybody's right.

18:41

I think both exist. That's what a dynamic system is.

18:45

Yeah, everybody's right. Yeah. But my goal for talking about complexity is more instructional.

18:54

So I'm not going to teach complex theories. I'm not going to teach complexity

18:59

physics because, A, I wouldn't know how.

19:04

And B, I don't have the time, but I want them to identify that in a complex

19:09

system, those couplings are what matter, tight or loose.

19:13

And then maybe the trick is, because I can hang with that, and this comes back

19:18

to what is the way we can better prepare a very dynamic workforce.

19:24

In a non-predictive way. In a non-predictive way. Non-linear, non-Newtonian. Right.

19:28

Complex. How to recognize what state those couplings are in.

19:33

So I've gotten overly fixated currently with chaos physics.

19:38

Okay. Have you followed any of this? I know a little bit about it.

19:40

So chaos physics identifies patterns early and then trends patterns out.

19:46

So they look for the couplings, but they look for the pattern of the couplings.

19:50

And where it's mostly effective right now, I think this is actually going to go really far.

19:56

It's mostly effective in biophysics. Okay. So disease modeling,

20:01

that kind of stuff, they can look at like an RNA chain or a DNA chain,

20:07

and they can look for using complex physics.

20:10

They can look for patterns that are repeated, he says, making air quotes,

20:16

because in complex physics, it could be like twice in 60 million times. I mean, it's complex.

20:25

And that's really powerful. I can imagine. Gotcha. What's been interesting is

20:29

that—so that won the Nobel Prize this year.

20:32

Rightly so. Yeah, I mean, that's a big deal. What's interesting is that the

20:36

complex physics community—. Because of a scientist named Carissa Sanbonmatsu, who listens a lot to this podcast,

20:47

because she better, I've known her for 30 years, is starting to see real crossovers

20:55

in what we're talking about in our world and the chaos physics.

21:00

And actually wants to do a paper on it, which could be pretty interesting.

21:05

That would evolve us tremendously.

21:09

You know, Todd, I wonder, I mean, that is all probably, I'm assuming,

21:14

mathematically grounded.

21:17

And when I think about leadership,

21:20

the way that I conceive of leadership, again,

21:24

is this relational aspect that leaders see those patterns in the very nuanced

21:32

data points that exist within society.

21:36

And it goes across art and literature and the politics and the environment they're

21:43

currently working in. It all comes together.

21:45

And leaders see those patterns in this dynamic way. And there's tight couplings

21:51

and there's loose couplings. And that's what forms the flow of the pattern. See, and that's going to be really interesting.

21:59

Do you think that's – is that resonating? Absolutely. And what I think is even

22:02

more interesting is Decker came in to talk about his blame book because he wants

22:07

to sell it, which is fine. He ended up really talking about forgiveness because it was that loose relationship

22:17

between sort of you can't – if you're not going to blame, then you have to forgive.

22:25

Two sides of the same coin. It was a super interesting discussion.

22:29

So what's the future? What do you got planned ahead? What's exciting about you

22:33

guys? Lots of world travel? Yeah, that's pretty cool.

22:36

Except for the airport part and the plane part. And the jet lag part.

22:41

And the jet lag part. You can't even find words to say jet lag. Yeah, that.

22:46

But here's the cool thing. And I don't know, Todd, after you and I worked at

22:51

Los Alamos, I think you pick up on people very quickly. I think you know that

22:55

I'm like a change driver.

22:58

And I want to ensure that we set up the nuclear industry, and I mean industry

23:06

from the regulator to the owner-operator

23:08

to the governmental organizations that stand behind nuclear,

23:12

that we are recognizing that we can be both.

23:19

Grounded and stable, and dynamic and changeable.

23:24

And so not only to put a publication, which we'll have one, right?

23:28

David Proven's a part of that team. Sydney is a part of the peer review.

23:33

But more importantly, and this is where maybe you'll come in eventually,

23:37

how do we then go to the member states and give them the tools where they can

23:42

practice in a safe-to-fail way how to be more discriminating,

23:49

more aware of their context. Do I need to be controlling?

23:52

Do I need to be flexible here? How do I adapt?

23:56

What decisions am I making? Is it naturalistic and momentary? Or can I be thoughtful?

24:02

But then acting. So awareness, adaptability, and acting.

24:07

In highly specific cultural environments.

24:11

Absolutely. So either in highly collectivistic cultures or non-collectivistic

24:15

cultures, which are incredibly different. And then to the point that was brought up today on the panel, they have to own it.

24:22

It's not the IAEA who's going to come in and fix it for them.

24:25

It's a train-the-trainer kind of thing where we go and help member states set

24:30

up within their context, and they continue the practice of educating and strengthening

24:36

these capabilities, resilient capabilities.

24:38

Have you thought about rewriting the IMPO book?

24:42

No. Book one and book two? I don't know. So IMPO wrote the kind of the seminal

24:47

human performance book. There's the book one, which is the theory.

24:51

Okay. And book two, which is the tools. Then DOE modernized that book greatly.

24:57

Well, WANO actually took over all of the IMPO stuff.

25:02

Yeah. And they have the attributes. So you should have all that stuff.

25:05

I have all of it. I love WANO.

25:08

Let me just. But it needs to be. Yeah. And the good thing is that the Wano document, you probably go to the DOE document,

25:15

which is a little bit more vibrant. It's a little bit more recently alive.

25:19

But I would I would really kick around just in your mind the power that that

25:25

fundamentals documents had. In sort of crossing cultures because it's a written document.

25:32

And so it's much less attuned to actual delivery and discussion because you

25:38

live in a world – well, you live in a world now that expects confrontation,

25:43

but you deliver in worlds that expect collective agreement.

25:46

And so it's interesting. Great observation. Thanks for your time. This has been great.

25:50

Todd, thank you. You're the best. I'm happy we finally met. Absolutely.

25:53

Perfect. All right. Thank you. Thank you.

25:57

Told you you'd like that conversation. Isn't that a great conversation?

26:00

I told you it would be fun. And I really appreciated the opportunity. It was like getting together with an old friend.

26:06

It was really nice and fun and interesting. And there's so much more.

26:12

We'll have to have this conversation again. Actually, I want to have this conversation

26:15

again. So I bet we do it. That's that easy.

26:18

And to answer my opening question, and this is a word I got from Lisa,

26:23

people who are being resilient are resilience. yours.

26:26

How about that? I like that. I like that a lot.

26:30

That's the pod. That's everything that we needed to listen to.

26:33

We've got lots of cool stuff coming up. Just hold on. You're going to love it. I promise you.

26:38

Until then, learn something new every single day. Bet you did today.

26:41

Have as much fun as you possibly can. Be good to each other. Be kind to each other. And for goodness sakes, you guys, be safe.

26:49

Music.