0:00

A quick word before we begin today's

0:02

episode. This is part two

0:04

of a multi part series, so it may

0:06

make more sense to start with part one.

0:08

Also, this episode contains adult

0:10

language and subjects that are not

0:13

suitable for children or listening out loud

0:15

at work. You might get

0:17

some strange looks. Okay.

0:19

Let's start the show. Previously

0:27

on pretend, Claudia and David started

0:30

getting harassing Instagram and text messages

0:32

from a person claiming to be their daughter's

0:34

doctor's husband. Yes,

0:37

the doctor's husband. A

0:39

man, these people claim they'd never

0:40

met. The messages started off benign

0:42

and quickly turned sadistic. This

0:45

guy put a threat out

0:47

to our home and he said I'm in your neighborhood

0:50

and I'm gonna kill your family. I'm

0:52

gonna kill you. The cyberstocking

0:55

started in January of two thousand nineteen

0:58

and is still going on today. Every

1:00

time that the soccer sends a threatening

1:02

message, the Rodriguez family calls

1:05

the police. Eventually, the

1:07

police decided to do a stakeout to see if

1:09

they can figure out who was sending these messages.

1:11

Almost three months went by and not

1:14

a single message was received. But

1:16

then. So January ninth

1:19

of of last year, I get

1:21

bang bang bang on our front door.

1:23

So I'm already apparently as it is.

1:26

I don't I was scared, you

1:28

know, especially after what we've been through, so

1:30

I didn't answer it. I just waited

1:32

for the gentleman to walk away and I pulled

1:34

the business card out of our screen door and it was

1:36

the detective. So I called at

1:38

work and I said the detective showed up

1:40

and maybe he has

1:42

an answer for us. So

1:45

I called him from from my route,

1:48

my mail route, and III

1:50

told him I said, yeah, my wife said

1:52

to do about the house. And he said,

1:55

yes. I did the subpoenas

1:57

of Instagram and it turned out

2:00

everything came from your house.

2:02

And I said, that's impossible. And

2:05

he said, nope. Everything everything

2:07

came from your house. Police

2:09

subpoenaed Instagram to identify who

2:11

created these threatening messages. There

2:14

were eleven accounts with juvenile usernames

2:16

such as Grace Grassman's vagina

2:18

love. Instagram provided the police

2:21

with the IP addresses used to create

2:23

the accounts. All the accounts except

2:25

for two were pointing to the same.

2:27

Person. The police also

2:29

subpoenaed Cox Communication, the

2:31

Internet service provider, and that came

2:33

back with the same result. All the messages

2:35

were sent from the same IP address.

2:38

Instagram and Cox Communications both

2:40

confirmed it. It was Claudia Rodriguez'

2:42

account. And I say,

2:44

well, that he must have hacked into

2:46

our system. You know, he must have

2:49

hacked into our Internet to make that

2:51

happen. Is it even possible

2:53

for a hacker to make it look like messages

2:55

are coming from inside someone's house? We're gonna

2:57

get into the whole heck of it in a future

2:59

episode, but for now, just note that the police

3:01

got a search warrant for Cox Communication

3:04

and Instagram to obtain information

3:06

from the IP addresses associated

3:08

with the messages the IP addresses

3:11

came back under Claudia's name.

3:13

Now, what's an IP address? Well,

3:15

an IP address is a series of numbers

3:18

that identifies a phone or a computer

3:20

on a network. Think of it this way.

3:22

One of your friends wants to meet you at your house, but

3:24

they don't know where you live. You give them your home

3:26

address, let's say, 123 Main

3:28

Street, in town USA, now

3:30

your friend has the information they need to

3:32

find you. It's the same concept

3:34

with IP addresses on the Internet. Every

3:36

network is assigned an address, and

3:39

in the case of the cyber stalker, The

3:41

police say that the address was pointing back

3:43

to Claudia and David's house. Insane.

3:46

Right? This

3:48

is not your typical cyberstocking scenario.

3:50

Typically, it's a disgruntled employee.

3:53

An ex boyfriend, an obsessed friend,

3:55

some cyberstalkers even cross the line

3:57

into the physical realm. And can

3:59

inflict real harm. Oftentimes,

4:02

victims have an idea who the soccer is,

4:04

but not in this case. This

4:06

case remains a mystery to me. Some

4:08

days, I'm confident I know who the perpetrator

4:11

then something new happens and everything

4:13

unwrapped goals. In

4:16

today's episode, Claudia and David

4:18

take matters into their own hands. There's

4:20

a confrontation with the alleged stalker

4:22

and things don't go as planned.

4:24

I'm happier labor and this

4:27

is pretend. Stories about real

4:29

people pretending to be someone else.

5:03

No. I I bought the Peloton not

5:05

knowing I was gonna like it or

5:07

not and I love it. I mean, I use

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it every single day. Every other day, I use

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the bike and then the other day is I

5:13

work out and do some strength training, yoga,

5:16

boxing. I love it. But I am

5:18

a huge Peloton fan. Hashtag

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pelletinos. Yeah. I mean, seriously,

5:22

and and it's more than just a bike you know

5:24

that, actually, what I used more so

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every other day, I I used the bike.

5:28

Right? But the other days, I I do

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strength training yoga,

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boxing. I mean, the the Peloton

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app is just as cool as the

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bike. And they they also have Peloton

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dot com, slash home

6:01

dash trial.

6:07

I give the subpoenas

6:09

of Instagram and it turned out,

6:11

everything came from your house.

6:14

And I said, that's impossible. And

6:17

he said, nope. Everything everything came

6:19

from your house. And he was he

6:21

was just adamant and it was a very short

6:23

conversation. And he

6:26

he said, well, If you want,

6:28

I could look at your phones and and this

6:30

and that. And I knew that wasn't

6:32

gonna fly with me. Because we don't wanna give the

6:34

police custody of our phones. And

6:36

then we don't know when we're gonna get

6:37

back, if we're gonna get them back. I'll tell you why

6:40

it doesn't make sense to give them our

6:42

devices. Because number one,

6:44

everything that they needed to see

6:46

was on Instagram. Everything

6:48

that you see is on Instagram. And secondly,

6:50

we had got new devices in

6:52

December So there's nothing on a brand

6:54

new device that you're gonna get.

6:57

This is not a good luck. First,

6:59

the police out that all these messages

7:01

are originating from inside their own house,

7:03

and now the cops are asking for their

7:05

phones, computers, and tablets, and Claudia

7:07

and David are refusing, Did

7:10

you give the cops your login credentials

7:12

and all that said, I could see your

7:14

Instagram? They subpoenaed it. So they they

7:16

they looked they they apparently,

7:18

they looked. I don't know. But it sounds like the

7:20

detectives from what you're telling

7:22

me were taking you seriously for

7:24

the most No. Not really.

7:27

Uh-huh. No. They would just come out to the house

7:29

and take a report. But

7:34

in my opinion, the police went above

7:36

and beyond when considering most

7:38

stocking cases. It's not that police

7:40

don't take stocking victims seriously. It's

7:43

just that most police departments don't

7:45

have the manpower or the resources to

7:47

chase down a stalker. Stocking,

7:49

especially cyber stock is

7:51

a difficult crime to investigate and

7:53

prosecute. Cyberstalking is outlawed

7:55

in the state where the Rodriguez family

7:57

lives. However, the penalties for cyberpunk

7:59

can range anywhere from a year to

8:01

three years in prison. And trying to get

8:03

a conviction can be tricky because there's

8:05

usually very little evidence. In

8:07

order to find evidence, police have to get a

8:09

court ordered warrant to search the suspect's

8:12

devices, and then how do you get around the

8:14

alibi? Maybe a roommate or someone in the

8:16

house had access to the computer without your

8:18

knowledge. You can see how

8:20

this could be troublesome. So the fact that

8:22

the cops even bothered to do a six hour

8:24

takeout and requested search warrants

8:26

from Instagram and Cox Communication

8:28

is above and beyond what most law enforcement

8:31

agencies would do. But

8:33

Claudia and David are not satisfied. And

8:35

and then they would say things like, well, why

8:37

don't you change your number? You're part

8:39

of the problem. But but why

8:41

didn't you change your name? Because I've okay.

8:43

I'll tell you because my my kids

8:45

see a lot of different providers. And

8:48

so I thought it would be such a hassle

8:50

to have to change my number that I've had for

8:52

over twenty years. And then I thought

8:54

also, it's my right to keep my

8:56

number. It's my right. So,

8:58

eventually, we did change

9:00

our numbers, but I just felt

9:02

forced into doing it because he

9:04

wouldn't stop. The police

9:06

involvement in this case wrapped after court

9:08

ordered subpoenas showed that the harassing

9:10

messages were originating from inside Claudia

9:12

and David's own home. Now that

9:14

the police were out of the way, the stalker

9:16

returned and decided to amp

9:18

things up. A few weeks after the police

9:20

concluded their investigation. Claudia

9:22

and David got a text message from a man

9:24

that said, hey, this is Zach from

9:26

OkCupid. He told me to

9:28

text you. Claudia responded and told him that

9:30

she's not an okay cupid. Then

9:32

another text came through in response to an

9:34

okay cupid ad, then another

9:36

one, and another one. And these

9:38

are real people. I was able to plug

9:40

in their phone numbers and do a reverse

9:42

search. One night, we

9:44

even got someone show up at

9:46

our home at ten thirty at night

9:48

expecting a hookup. And when he found

9:50

out that he wasn't gonna get a

9:52

hookup, he got extremely mad. And

9:54

that's dangerous. And around the

9:56

same time period, doctor Grassman contacted

9:59

the police and alerted them that some

10:01

new fake accounts were created under

10:03

her and her husband's name. The Instagram

10:05

account is one of the accounts associated

10:07

with Claudia and David's IP

10:09

address. Meanwhile, Claudia and

10:11

David called the police because they continued

10:13

to receive threatening text messages from a

10:15

handful of phone

10:16

numbers. The message is read. If I could call

10:18

the hospital, then yeah, I would.

10:20

Another one said. Great. How

10:22

she gets ripped, how she burns, and the

10:24

garden floor, her brings out. When I take a pencil

10:27

to her throat, my hand was shedding to

10:29

her head. Duck tape her on her mouth and

10:31

run a scraper spine with my

10:33

machete overhead off with my pistol,

10:35

duct tape her mouth, take off

10:37

her clothes, and some bad bad time would have

10:39

been to her body in the league.

10:41

The stalker

10:42

even started messaging Chelsea, doctor

10:45

Grassman's former patient. He did some

10:47

things to my daughter that were unforgivable.

10:49

He reached out to my

10:51

daughter who's disabled and he

10:54

told her that she's retarded

10:57

and that she's not worth the

10:59

sperm that it took to create her

11:01

and that she needed to kill herself. And

11:04

I can't forgive him for that.

11:06

Right. The police accused me of

11:08

doing that. That I that I'm

11:10

the one that wrote my kid back. And

11:13

he did it on a couple of different

11:15

occasions where he would mess message her and

11:17

talk to her about her disabilities

11:19

and

11:20

and too bad doctor, you know what, won't

11:22

be your doctor anymore. And

11:24

And she actually responded in more of

11:26

an adult way

11:27

than than he did. She

11:29

responded, like, I love my parents and I

11:31

don't want you to talk about them

11:33

like that or me. She

11:36

responded, like, in a very adult way, and I'm,

11:38

like, so proud of her. Police were

11:40

able to trace the numbers to a company

11:42

called Bandwidth. Bandwidth is a company that

11:44

sells voice over IP numbers. The

11:46

way it works is that bandwidth sells phone

11:48

numbers to companies and those companies then

11:50

sell those phone numbers to other companies

11:52

like Google Voice, Ping, RingCentral,

11:55

etcetera. Trying to trace those

11:57

numbers back to the user can be tricky, but

11:59

would involve the Quap operation from

12:01

multiple companies. The harassment

12:03

continued. Three separate

12:05

pizza orders totaling more than two hundred

12:07

dollars were delivered to the Rodriguez's

12:09

home.

12:09

Yeah, he used our numbers to

12:11

order food and have it delivered

12:13

to our home and it wasn't food for.

12:15

And then it would have the name of the

12:17

doctor on the receipt and,

12:19

like, mocking the the police

12:21

that I'm the one that did that. Why

12:24

would I do that? The

12:26

names on the pizzas were quote

12:28

Grace Fremstead. I know the one

12:30

was Grace Grassman Friendsstead.

12:32

The last one was Grace Fremstead.

12:34

All variations of the doctor and the security

12:37

captain's name. Let's get our

12:39

bearings straight. The stocking started

12:41

in the summer of two thousand nineteen. The

12:43

police takeout took place in the fall

12:45

of two thousand nineteen. In just a

12:47

few months, the Rodriguez family went from

12:49

being the victims to the suspect in their own

12:51

harassment case. So in the spring of

12:53

two thousand twenty, they decided to

12:55

take matters into their own hands.

12:57

We'll continue the story after

12:59

the break. The

13:03

legend of doctor Ronald Dante spends

13:06

decades, movie stars, fugitive

13:09

yachts, Continents, if

13:11

you believe his version of events. He is

13:13

Ronald Pella, a legendary

13:15

gunman. No one but Ron

13:18

pull that off. From campsite

13:20

media and Sony Music Entertainment,

13:22

chameleon season five, doctor

13:24

Dante, is available now. Subscribe

13:26

on Apple podcasts to binge all

13:29

episodes or listen weekly

13:31

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14:03

life. What

14:06

would you do? If you're getting threatening

14:08

messages in please think that you're

14:10

doing it to yourself. Claudia and

14:12

David felt that they had to do

14:13

something. Not only to stop the harassment,

14:16

but to clear their name, so they hired a

14:18

private investigator. Our private

14:20

investigator that we work

14:22

with, she initially pind

14:24

it. We told her that it was a security

14:26

guard. She said it it's not the security guard.

14:28

I think it's the husband. And I

14:30

was like, what? She

14:32

she guessed it right off the bat because I I know

14:34

I know it's him. I know it's a husband.

14:36

Somehow, the Stalker seemed to know

14:38

about Claudia and David's private investigator

14:40

named Mary. In fact, he would reference

14:42

her height in some of the messages. And

14:44

then he said, send your

14:46

midget over. The midget

14:48

is our private investigator. She's

14:51

like four ten. So I thought, okay, fine. I'll

14:53

call your bluff. So I call

14:55

her. And I said, would you

14:57

do this job tonight? And she

14:59

said, yes. So I could

15:01

tell that she was nervous. She she's

15:03

a tough fraud. She's a tough lady,

15:06

and she she seemed kinda

15:08

nervous. And we met up

15:10

about reboxed away from

15:12

this doctor's

15:13

home. She said I'm psyching myself

15:15

up. It

15:15

was already dark. It was dark. She says

15:18

if I'm not back within an hour, please

15:20

call it, please. So

15:22

about twenty minutes later, she came

15:24

back visibly shaken. She

15:26

said his behavior is off. Odd. He

15:28

was looking all around. Instead of

15:30

looking right at me when when we were talking,

15:33

she she didn't talk about us or the

15:35

situation. She she made up a story as

15:37

to why she was there. She said his

15:39

behavior is very on. So I called

15:41

up Claudia and David's private investigator,

15:43

Mary, to get her take on all this.

15:45

Hi,

15:46

Mary. My name's Javier Leyba. I

15:48

was told to call you back. Yes.

15:50

You're I'm more than happy to

15:53

talk with you about it. A very

15:55

strange situation.

15:57

It really is. I

15:59

have combed through a

16:01

lot of the text messages the

16:03

police reports, and

16:05

a lot of the timeline that they built

16:08

to chronologically tell their

16:10

story, and there were some

16:12

interesting things happening

16:14

especially when you got involved because

16:16

I know that you've tried to approach

16:18

the the family. Right? Yes.

16:20

Yes. I have. I

16:22

I set surveillance outside

16:25

of the house one day.

16:27

I wanted to get a photograph of

16:29

him because we had been due I

16:31

was doing some surveillance at the

16:33

this residence the night before

16:35

and a gentleman rode past us on

16:37

a bicycle. And

16:40

the the other gem I went there,

16:42

he had

16:43

asked for to have her

16:46

send me when he he

16:48

came to the door and her

16:49

rage. Just very

16:53

angry. And he had a a golf

16:55

club in his in his hand, and

16:57

he poked me in the chest with it.

16:59

And chased me the way I

17:01

ran out to my car and

17:03

got in it and locked it. When

17:05

you approached him, I go and you walk walked

17:07

up to his door. Did you tell him who you

17:09

were and why you were there, or did he

17:11

already know? He

17:14

already knew. He

17:16

he came to the door this

17:18

way. I do not think

17:20

that anyone in the right

17:22

mind would answer a door like

17:25

that. But it it

17:27

it was very strange with the city it

17:29

asked for me to come and ask. What kind of

17:31

things were was he saying

17:33

exactly? You want it get

17:35

get out of here, stop harassing

17:38

us. We just want this to

17:40

be over you guys are

17:41

crazy, just leave us alone.

17:44

And

17:44

we don't want anything to do with any of

17:47

this anymore. Is

17:49

if they had been harassing

17:51

him or something, as

17:53

if they were doing to him what he

17:55

was doing to them. He looked

17:57

like a madman. As

18:01

as I recall, he just it was

18:03

something like what a matter with you

18:04

people. Why can't you leave us alone? What

18:07

else did you say? It was something

18:09

about we're not going to put up

18:11

with

18:11

this. Any

18:11

longer. If if it doesn't stop, we're going

18:13

to do something about it, and you're gonna be

18:16

sorry. And when he

18:17

punched

18:17

me with the golf club, you

18:20

know, you wanted me to press charges. And

18:22

I felt that was for

18:24

one thing

18:24

inserting myself too

18:27

much in of the investigation is

18:29

not advisable. And if

18:32

it had been anyone

18:33

else, I wouldn't I would never charge

18:35

someone. Because they had poked me with with a

18:38

golf club. Because it it didn't

18:40

really hurt you, but it was definitely

18:42

a threatening move. Right?

18:45

Yeah. It was an an

18:47

aggressive move and threatening,

18:49

but it didn't hurt me. Claudia

18:51

and David claimed that forty five minutes after

18:53

Mary visited the Grassman's house, they received

18:56

a text message from the Stalker. The

18:58

Stalker asked, why did you send the

19:00

midget to this house? Unquote, he mentioned

19:02

hitting the private investigator with the golf

19:04

club. And what's your take on this

19:06

situation? Like, what do you think? I know that they were

19:08

your clients, but do

19:10

you feel Well Like, you believe

19:12

their side of the story? I do.

19:14

They're very normal, non

19:16

tourist people, very

19:19

nice people. I can't

19:21

even fathom

19:24

why they

19:25

would do such a thing. I can't

19:28

picture them.

19:28

Even with such language

19:30

coming out of their mouth. I can't

19:33

even imagine them

19:35

knowing some of those

19:38

things. You know,

19:40

but when I spoke to the detective,

19:44

he told me that he felt that

19:46

it was coming from their And I said,

19:48

okay. Why would they do such a

19:49

thing? And he simply said, I

19:52

stopped asking why years ago.

19:55

So

19:56

he he definitely did not

19:59

buy their side of the

20:01

store? No. Not

20:03

at all. I think that that

20:05

doctor had charmed

20:07

him. That was the the feeling

20:09

I got. He he wanted it

20:11

to be solved

20:13

and easy cut and dried matter.

20:15

Yeah. That that and I think

20:17

that's what bothers me about this case.

20:19

Just reading the police report it it

20:21

doesn't look good for Claudia and David.

20:24

It almost makes it sound like they're making

20:26

this whole thing up. Yeah.

20:28

It does. But I don't know. I've

20:31

talked with on the phone

20:33

any time for for

20:35

hours and she has

20:39

a very busy life

20:41

and I can't see

20:43

her having a disorder

20:45

like that where she needs attention.

20:48

It it just it doesn't compute

20:51

when I look at her and

20:53

I think about that what they're

20:55

saying. It doesn't add up to

20:57

me. From your investigation though,

20:59

like, what kind of new evidence were

21:01

you able to find that convinced you one

21:03

way or the other? I

21:05

could not come up with any evidence that

21:08

we could use that

21:11

would be suitable

21:13

in court or anywhere to

21:16

say that unequivocally

21:18

it was

21:19

we went to a

21:22

forensic company that did work

21:24

with computers and phones if they

21:26

couldn't get anywhere because of these

21:28

numbers she had used. I

21:30

just couldn't help

21:33

but see and feel that

21:35

these people are not doing this.

21:38

Even though I couldn't even come up with any

21:40

evidence that we could

21:42

use. I mean, you you've got

21:44

to have hard and

21:46

fast stuff there to to take into court

21:48

and what they're just working anything.

21:51

What do you think his motivation is?

21:54

That's a

21:57

hard one except that

22:00

I think that he's jealous

22:02

of his wife I think that he he feels like

22:05

just a clown in the

22:07

background. She she may

22:09

he's mentioned she's having an affair

22:12

and she may well be. I

22:14

don't know, but I think that

22:16

he's very insecure in his

22:18

relationship with his wife. She

22:20

obviously wears the pants

22:22

financially, and

22:24

I don't know if she as far as I'm concerned,

22:26

the person who controls the

22:29

finances, controls the

22:31

relationship. And so I think a lot of it has to

22:33

do with that. I

22:35

think that I I don't

22:37

know. I don't know. It's all it everything

22:39

I could tell you is conjecture. Exactly.

22:41

Not based on that. Yeah. It

22:43

not. But he's very insecure

22:46

with that, I think. And I think he's a

22:48

little bit off balance to begin

22:50

with. He just I remember when I the first

22:52

time I saw his photograph. I

22:54

I just got a weird feeling

22:56

that there was something about

22:58

go look and advise. I don't know. He just

23:01

it was a strange feeling that this

23:03

guy's not quite right, but

23:05

that's just me. I don't know if he

23:07

was hoping that he would be caught, and

23:10

it would adversely affect his

23:12

wife or if he

23:14

was trying to be her knight and

23:16

shining armor or

23:18

something like that. It's a very

23:20

juvenile sort of mind frame

23:23

think that he's operating with,

23:25

but from the text that he

23:27

sent, he certainly doesn't seem

23:29

to be a man who has a

23:31

grip on reality. And

23:33

and you say this again as

23:35

conjecture because you weren't able to

23:38

conclusively link the

23:40

Grasman's this. But but you feel

23:42

like the roger gazrs are telling you the

23:44

truth. Yes. I mean, I feel that way too

23:46

when I talk to them. They seem like

23:48

very nice. Very normal

23:50

people. They are

23:52

to see their your

23:54

everyday middle class.

23:57

Working people. I think

23:59

extraordinary about the middle,

24:01

and they've maybe been dealt to

24:03

their share of troubles having

24:06

kids that learning disabled

24:09

child and another room

24:11

suffers some depression and all

24:13

that. But I think Most

24:15

families have something.

24:22

Next time, I'm pretend. I

24:25

said, you know what? You're all talk. I

24:27

said, why don't you meet us in person?

24:30

Things escalate quickly. And he

24:32

said, okay. Even a

24:33

federal law enforcement agency gets

24:36

involved. So I

24:38

I drove my daughter down

24:41

down to the postal inspector office,

24:43

and and they basically

24:46

interrogated her.

24:47

She came

24:47

out in tears they at

24:50

her phone, see if they were looking at

24:52

apps that she had downloaded and --

24:54

Yes. -- off her phone years ago. And

24:57

she told them, I have

24:59

nothing to do with this. All fingers

25:02

are pointing back at the Rodriguez'

25:04

oldest daughter. Thus

25:07

next time unpretend. You

25:16

can binge all the episodes of this series

25:18

right now. Become a pretend

25:20

plus subscriber on Apple Podcasts

25:23

or join Patreon and become a

25:25

supporter there. My paid transporters get

25:27

really cool swag like stickers and

25:29

t shirts. I'll have a link to that

25:31

in the show notes. And remember, if

25:33

you're a victim of a cyber stalker,

25:35

There are resources that can help. Go to stocking

25:37

awareness dot org. Remember if a

25:39

stocker calls you, don't answer the phone or

25:41

respond to the messages. Alert

25:43

your neighbors, your coworkers, and let them know that to look out

25:45

for anything suspicious. And if you

25:47

have kids, make sure you talk to them about what

25:49

to do in case of an emergency. Again,

25:52

go to stocking awareness dot org to learn what kind

25:54

of resources are available to

25:57

you. Alright. I'll talk to you next

25:59

week.

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