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0:35

Welcome to Pretty Lies and Alibis.

0:37

Let's seek the truth and travel the

0:39

long road to justice together. What

0:45

you know, Alibis, welcome to another episode

0:47

of Pretty Lies and Alibis. I'm Gigi.

0:49

Happy Wednesday. I'm all thrown off with

0:51

no court yesterday. I keep feeling like

0:53

it's Monday, but it's not. It's

0:55

Wednesday. We are on day 14 of

0:57

testimony in the Chad Daybell trial. We're going to

0:59

jump in. But first, you

1:01

know the drill. If you're watching on YouTube,

1:03

don't forget to hit subscribe, like the video,

1:05

share it with your friends, and you can

1:07

ring my bell if you want notifications of

1:09

when I post new content. Just

1:11

click that little bell icon. It'll let you

1:13

know when I post anything new. Music

1:16

fact of the day, the song Ho Hey by

1:18

the Lumineers. A lot of people think it's a

1:20

love song, but it was actually written about the

1:22

myth of New York. People

1:24

go there to make it big and

1:27

that dream is lost. We are going

1:29

to jump in. We had the medical

1:31

examiner on the stand today. This is

1:33

the same medical examiner that testified last

1:36

year at Lori's trial. Just a couple

1:38

of things to note. Big happy belated

1:40

birthday to Cheryl from South Australia. Hope

1:43

you had a great day. Nate Eaton

1:45

tweeted out a couple of things that

1:47

Chad's brother, Matt Daybell, is in court

1:49

today. Chad pointed his brother

1:52

out to John Pryor when he came in. And

1:54

also Chad's brother is sitting with

1:56

Kay and Larry Woodcock. Nate

1:58

Eaton said Chad looked at his brother.

2:00

repeatedly, must be weird. I

2:02

don't think they've seen each other since Tammy

2:04

Daybell's funeral. Dr. Eric

2:06

Christensen was on the stand. He was

2:09

the medical examiner for the autopsy for

2:11

Tammy Daybell. This is after

2:14

her body was exhumed. He actually worked

2:16

right here in Greenville, South Carolina for

2:18

a while. We have a coroner system,

2:20

which is an elected position. In

2:23

the state of Utah, there is no coroner system.

2:25

Their staff is forensic pathologists. He

2:27

first got involved in this case

2:29

in November of 2019. He

2:33

attended a hearing where the request was

2:35

made to exhumed Tammy and then that

2:37

order was issued. He was there from

2:39

the moment they exhumed Tammy and followed

2:41

her body all the way to the

2:43

medical examiner's office. He gives reasons why

2:45

people might be exhumed, such as DNA

2:47

wasn't available at the time of someone's

2:50

death, evaluation of

2:52

criminal circumstances, and in

2:54

his jurisdiction, they spend time before

2:56

and after gathering information like medical

2:59

records, any kind of police records,

3:01

interviews, anything that helps them

3:03

understand the circumstances of the death. He

3:06

gives the analogy of you see your doctor. You

3:08

don't just get treated. You talk about your symptoms

3:10

and things like that. Some of

3:12

these notes, by the way, are from Lori's trial. They

3:14

were a little bit more detailed since I was sitting

3:16

in there and was able to see

3:19

the picture. So this is your trigger warning.

3:21

I will be discussing what we saw last

3:23

year on the pictures. Nothing too graphic, but

3:25

still wanted to put that out there. He

3:27

said, exhuming a body is not a common

3:30

occurrence. If the body is being exhumed, it

3:32

changes how he performs the autopsy. That

3:35

Tammy was embalmed, which changes the

3:37

nature of tissue. It fixes the

3:39

tissue, but it also preserves it.

3:42

It's difficult to do an autopsy due

3:44

to stiffness, but it's not impossible. The

3:46

vault that Tammy was in was dry

3:48

and well maintained with no water damage.

3:51

If that happens, he gives an example. They were

3:53

going to exhume somebody, but the vault had been

3:55

breached and it was pointless. He said her embalming

3:57

was done well and it was a very difficult

4:00

time. was recent which helps. There

4:02

was mold growth on her body. They

4:05

removed that during the course of

4:07

the autopsy. He explains the autopsy

4:09

process, collecting samples, taking

4:11

photos, the external exam,

4:13

and the internal exam. As

4:16

far as photos, they take photos as

4:19

the coffin is open. We saw those last

4:21

year. They take photos

4:23

without clothing before the body

4:25

is cleaned, after the body is cleaned,

4:27

and they look at the entire body

4:30

to look for natural disease as well

4:32

as collect samples. If the situation warrants

4:34

it, they'll dissect certain areas of the

4:36

body to look for injuries and

4:38

they also do x-rays to look for

4:41

skeletal trauma. It's just a better way

4:43

to look for any trauma to the

4:45

bones. They look at

4:47

samples under the microscope since some

4:49

organs may look normal at eye

4:51

level but could have disease present.

4:53

On Tammy, they concluded the cause

4:56

of death was asphyxiation and the

4:58

manner of death was homicide. He

5:00

explains asphyxia is anything blocking the

5:02

mouth, the nose, choking on

5:04

something, somebody can have something forced into

5:07

their mouth. It really is just the

5:09

person being deprived of oxygen and

5:11

it's a very broad category. It

5:14

could be due to drowning, due to

5:16

hanging, carbon monoxide,

5:18

cyanide, smothering, neck or

5:21

chest compression, essentially

5:23

blocking your ability to breathe by blocking

5:25

the nose or mouth which

5:27

can cause unconsciousness within 10 to

5:29

15 seconds. He didn't see any

5:32

obvious external injuries which would cause

5:34

her death or any natural disease

5:36

of the heart and the lungs.

5:38

Everything looked normal including her liver

5:40

and kidneys. He said asphyxia is

5:43

a diagnosis of exclusion. Tammy had

5:45

a negative autopsy. There was no

5:47

disease or injury evident that would

5:49

explain why she died. He talks

5:51

about seizures. It can cause asphyxia.

5:54

Seizures are abnormal electrical changes

5:56

in the brain. Tammy

5:58

had no history but we know it

6:00

was relayed to the coroner, she may have had

6:02

some in the days leading up to her death.

6:05

He said it's very unlikely she

6:07

would suddenly develop a seizure disorder

6:10

at her age. You can have

6:12

convulsions or staring spells, abnormal

6:14

movements of certain parts of the body.

6:17

And another indication of seizure is looking

6:19

at any kind of tongue injuries or

6:21

incontinence. He calls those soft signs of

6:24

seizures, but not a slam dunk. There

6:26

was no physical evidence of seizure outside

6:28

the information provided by Chad to the

6:31

coroner. He reviewed medical records for Tammy

6:33

and saw nothing indicating she would be

6:35

at risk for seizures. Talks about stroke,

6:37

which is caused by a change in

6:40

the brain or a growth of a

6:42

tumor that can present early

6:44

on with seizure activity. Tammy's

6:46

brain was normal and it's unlikely a

6:49

stroke was the cause of her death.

6:51

Arrhythmia disorders in the heart can cause

6:53

sudden death or inherited disorders related to

6:55

the heart can cause you to have arrhythmias.

6:58

People usually have a family history. And

7:00

again, it's unusual the onset

7:02

would be at the age she was, which is

7:04

49 years old. Typically

7:07

that presents in childhood or

7:09

young adulthood. The depression medication

7:11

she was on can cause

7:13

seizures, but she had been

7:15

on that for a length of time

7:17

with no issues. Another explanation for a

7:19

sudden death would be toxicology. They

7:21

look for pesticides, any kind of

7:24

chemical agents. Her toxicology showed

7:26

therapeutic levels of that generic version

7:28

of Prozac she had taken for

7:30

years. In addition to no abnormal

7:33

organs or pathological processes, they did

7:35

notice she had bruising on her

7:37

right and left arm and chest.

7:39

He estimates they happened within the

7:41

hours around her death and he

7:44

found it was consistent with someone

7:46

being restrained and consistent with asphyxia.

7:48

Pulmonary edema is a buildup of

7:50

fluid in the lungs and can

7:52

come out of the body through

7:54

the nose and the mouth. He says

7:57

you can't test for every possible substance. The

7:59

lab. they used as a broad

8:01

screening for hundreds of common illicit

8:04

over-the-counter or prescription medications.

8:07

They also looked for heavy metals, pesticides,

8:09

nerve agents and plant-based toxins. She

8:11

did have a bit of the

8:14

heavy metal in her system but

8:16

it was not anything that would

8:18

have been lethal. Two different labs

8:20

did the testing of her samples.

8:22

He said it's one of the

8:24

most extensive toxicologies he's ever done

8:26

just due to the circumstances of

8:28

her death. The optimal way to

8:30

test toxicology is through blood but

8:32

embalming removes the blood. They will

8:34

use liver samples because it's really

8:36

good for post-mortem testing. Her embalming

8:38

did not inhibit toxicology testing but it

8:41

did slow it down. I don't know

8:43

if you guys who have followed this

8:45

remembered but it was a

8:47

long time before we heard they had

8:49

finished the toxicology in her autopsy

8:51

months and months later. When they

8:53

started the internal exam, organs

8:56

appeared normal except for changes

8:58

related to embalming. They

9:00

did find this frothy foam in

9:02

the airway and fluid in her

9:04

lungs. Last year they published photos

9:06

of Tammy at the home at

9:08

this point. You see that

9:10

red pink foam going from her mouth

9:13

down the left side of her cheek.

9:15

The pulmonary edema froth. He said the

9:17

fluid mixes with protein that makes that

9:20

froth. Pulmonary edema is not a cause

9:22

of death. It's a manifestation of an

9:24

underlying cause. You see it

9:26

in overdoses, drownings, asphyxia, heart

9:29

failure. He said Tammy's lungs were

9:31

on the heavy side with fluid

9:33

and there was also changes due

9:35

to the embalming. This played

9:37

a part in his finding of

9:40

asphyxiation. He also noted that bruising

9:42

could be an indication of restraint

9:44

and they put up the diagram

9:46

where he drew the locations that

9:48

the bruises were found on Tammy.

9:51

There were six bruises on the front of her

9:53

body and on the back there were four.

9:55

Around this time Chad starts pointing to the

9:57

screen and talking to John Pryor which I thought

9:59

was interesting. And he talks about

10:01

bruises and hemorrhage is the initial

10:03

stage. All of

10:05

the bruising on Tammy showed only hemorrhage,

10:08

which means they were put there in

10:10

close proximity to her death. Once

10:13

circulation stops, we don't hemorrhage.

10:16

And there was no inflammatory response with any

10:18

of these bruises, so that

10:20

told them these were fresh. They could

10:22

have occurred minutes to hours before her

10:24

death. They showed bruises on her left

10:27

chest, the left front bicep and collarbone

10:29

area. On the right side, there were

10:31

three on the biceps and two on

10:33

the forearm. On the back, two

10:35

bruises on the back of the arm, behind

10:38

the tricep area, and then two

10:40

on the back of the forearm. There was

10:42

no bruising on the lower body. They made

10:44

an incision in the arm showing the hemorrhage,

10:47

which means that was a newer bruise, and

10:49

they also took a tissue sample of

10:51

these bruises. Last year, he pointed

10:53

out the hemorrhage on the screen.

10:55

You have the subcutaneous fat, which

10:58

is normally yellow. It was

11:00

dark, which indicated that bleeding from

11:02

the bruise into that subcutaneous fat.

11:04

There are three post-mortem changes. Number

11:06

one is lividity. He

11:09

noticed lividity all over Tammy's back,

11:11

and that's a normal post-mortem change.

11:13

When circulation stops, the blood settles to the

11:16

lowest part of the body, and that's due

11:18

to gravity. That starts

11:20

about 60 to 90 minutes after death. He

11:22

says if someone lays on their back a

11:24

couple of hours and they're dead and they

11:27

were rolled over, it could redistribute

11:29

the lividity to the front side, but

11:32

over time, say 10 to 12 hours

11:34

after death, there's no redistribution

11:37

of the blood because it's fixed.

11:39

Shortly after death, lividity can go

11:41

away entirely if the person is

11:43

moved, but not as much as

11:45

time passes, and you really can't

11:47

determine a time of death due

11:49

to lividity. The second is rigor

11:51

mortis, which is stiffening. Over

11:54

time, it fully develops typically about

11:56

12 hours after death, and

11:58

then you will stay in that rigor

12:01

mortis until decomposition begins. Rigor mortis

12:03

can help narrow down a time

12:05

of death. Is it

12:07

present? Is it not? But it can

12:09

be variable. With lividity, rigor mortis, and

12:12

also body temperature, those three things can

12:14

narrow down a window for a time

12:16

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12:18

is dead, it is harder to get that time

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the journey packed today. He relies

14:47

on other observations to determine a

14:49

timeline of death. Tammy was cold

14:51

and stiff when found which

14:53

indicated rigor mortis had set in. He said

14:55

she had to have been dead at least

14:58

an hour or two before 911

15:00

was called. Of course, it could have been

15:02

more but not really less. The prosecutor asked

15:04

if anemia or a past history of anemia

15:07

could cause sudden death. We know Pryor's been

15:09

on this anemia kick. He said

15:11

it depended on the severity of the anemia

15:13

but not in this case. Also,

15:16

essential oils would not have contributed

15:18

to her cause of death. The bruises did

15:20

play into the cause of death because

15:22

it's consistent with being restrained. He

15:25

looked at other reasons for a negative

15:27

autopsy but with his experience and training,

15:30

seizure, cardiac arrhythmia, and intoxicants

15:33

are not contributors to Tammy's cause

15:35

of death. That's why asphyxia is.

15:37

On cross, Pryor mentions pulmonary edema

15:40

which we know was confirmed. The

15:43

medical examiner says yes it was present but

15:45

it was not the cause of death. Pryor

15:47

asked how long would it take to produce

15:49

that amount of pulmonary edema found at autopsy

15:52

and the medical examiner does not know. He

15:54

asked what was the reason for exhuming the

15:56

body and the witnesses to determine a cause

15:58

of death. He goes on and

16:00

on about this y'all trying to get

16:03

this witness who said he did not

16:05

know what reason was given

16:07

at this hearing that he attended.

16:09

But granted, this is years ago.

16:11

There's objections sustained. They're flying around.

16:13

Prior keeps saying, digging Tammy up out

16:15

of the ground ejection. The witnesses like

16:17

I didn't request her to be exhumed.

16:20

He doesn't know if there was a discussion

16:22

of Charles or Brandon at the hearing. And

16:25

I'm just surprised prior didn't ask about Melanie

16:27

Gibb as far as Tammy Daybell being exhumed.

16:29

As big of a kick as

16:31

he's been on with her. Prior points

16:33

out the family was never notified Tammy

16:35

was being exhumed and the witness agrees.

16:37

He did not think they were. Again,

16:39

he talks about the order to exhumed,

16:42

nonstop objections. He asked the same question

16:44

10 ways over and over. He moves

16:46

on to the bruises and said that

16:48

the medical examiner said they were non-specific

16:50

bruises and the witness says that bruises

16:52

by nature are non-specific. He

16:55

asked the witness if he testified at

16:57

Lori's trial. He described those bruises as

16:59

non-specific. Prior points out what that means

17:01

is you can't identify the cause of

17:03

the bruises and the witness says no.

17:05

The witness says he cannot say how

17:07

the bruises were put on Tammy's body.

17:09

The defense asked could those bruises go

17:11

back as far as 24 hours

17:13

before death and the witness says yes.

17:15

Prior points out that the witness did

17:17

not talk to the family about Tammy

17:19

having cream for treating bruises. The witness

17:21

says those were documented and they looked

17:24

them up and went through those treatments

17:26

she had at home. The defense asked if

17:28

they were able to get information. She was

17:30

prone to bruising and the witness didn't speak

17:32

to the family. The defense says did you

17:34

see the statement by Chad where she threw

17:36

up and fell over and the

17:39

witness saw it in the report. The witness

17:41

agrees with Prior when he says it's not

17:43

ideal to autopsy after embalming and burial. Then

17:45

Prior puts up the bruising exhibit and asks

17:47

how many bruises are on the right arm.

17:50

There are eight total, four on the front,

17:52

four on the back and one bruise on

17:54

the left arm and one bruise on the

17:56

chest. Then Prior says what I'm confused about

17:58

is how is someone. asphyxiating Tammy Daybell

18:00

if someone is holding her arms. And

18:03

the witness says, I wasn't there. Let

18:05

me give you a little hint prior. I think Alex

18:07

Cox was there and they tag teamed this. That's

18:10

how you do it. But back to testimony.

18:12

The defense says if someone is holding her

18:14

arms there, how did bruises get on the

18:16

front and the back of the right arm?

18:18

And the witness says, if the person is

18:20

grabbed. The defense says, would someone be grabbing

18:23

the lower part of the arm at the

18:25

same time they're asphyxiating her? Then prior asked

18:27

if her death could be something other than

18:29

asphyxiation and the witness says no. The

18:31

bruising alone doesn't lead you to

18:34

asphyxiation. The witness says no. Then

18:36

he says Charles Valo and Brandon Boudreau

18:38

don't lead you to asphyxiation. I

18:41

think there's an objection. He brings up

18:43

testimony from Lori's trial from this witness

18:45

the five options for cause of death

18:47

on a death certificate. You have natural,

18:49

you have self-harm, you have accident,

18:52

homicide and undetermined. So of course, prior

18:54

wants to talk about undetermined. He says

18:56

you don't have any reason that leads

18:58

you to say this is absolutely how

19:00

this person passes away. And

19:03

the witness says undetermined is when you

19:05

do not have enough investigative evidence to

19:07

determine a cause of death. Like

19:10

an overdose, it could have been accidental or

19:12

it could have been intended. The witness says

19:14

if he could not form an opinion about

19:16

whether this was accidental or homicidal, he would

19:19

have put undetermined that he said in the

19:21

case of Tami Daybell, he was able to

19:23

make a determination. Prior says it doesn't have

19:25

to indicate foul play to be undetermined and

19:28

the witness says no. Prior talks

19:30

about Tami's past medical reports and the

19:32

witness got some from Utah and Idaho.

19:34

It was very few pages. There wasn't

19:36

a lot of medical history there. So

19:40

prior talks about Tami being diagnosed

19:42

with anemia five years prior to

19:44

her death. And you

19:46

didn't talk to family to see how

19:48

it was progressing. And he said no.

19:50

Prior mentions Tami taking that generic version

19:52

of Prozac. He asked if

19:54

it's mixed with herbs or supplements. It

19:56

can be of significant consequence. The

19:59

witness says. it's possible, but he's not

20:01

aware of any interactions with that generic

20:03

version of Prozac. Pryor says you can't

20:05

test for herbs and if it reacts

20:08

with Prozac, and the witness

20:10

says no, you cannot test for interactions.

20:12

Pryor asked if those natural remedies could

20:14

have contributed, and the witness has

20:17

to say he doesn't know. Pryor asked if

20:19

heavy lungs could have had an impact on

20:21

her cause of death, and the witness says

20:23

yes. Then Pryor says you didn't take that

20:25

into consideration before determining asphyxia, and the witness

20:27

says I did. Then Pryor

20:29

says oh you did, and then he moves

20:32

on. Pryor talks about seizures, and

20:34

when someone has a seizure, he said

20:36

any one of us can have one

20:38

at any time. The witness says you

20:40

could, but is it likely? He said

20:42

I can't exclude it, but it's very

20:44

unlikely. Then Pryor says in spite of

20:46

Chad talking about fainting, it's unlikely that

20:48

she had a seizure, and the witness

20:50

says yes. Pryor asks if seizures can

20:52

happen anytime, unannounced, or with a medical

20:54

proof, and the witness says

20:56

yes, they can. Typically it's from tumor

20:58

or infection or some underlying cause. Pryor

21:01

talks about the family history where

21:03

Tammy's dad had heart disease, and

21:06

the witness said her heart looked healthy. Pryor

21:08

asks if arrhythmia can happen with a healthy

21:10

heart. The witness says it's not apparent maybe

21:12

with the naked eye, but looking

21:14

deeper, there would be something microscopic that would

21:17

indicate an arrhythmia. Then Pryor does get the

21:19

witness to say if you have an arrhythmia

21:21

and your heart stops beating, you could get

21:23

that pink foam in the lungs, or if

21:25

you have a seizure, then Pryor says if

21:28

her anemia is untreated and you have these

21:30

heavy lungs, you can get the same result.

21:32

The witness says not with the

21:34

activities Tammy was reported to be doing.

21:37

She was not at any stage of

21:39

anemia to cause major problems. He

21:41

points out she was active exercising, doing

21:44

normal stuff. On redirect, Lindsey

21:46

Blake, again, brings it home for the jury.

21:49

She asks you didn't talk to Chad's kids?

21:52

Did any of them reach out to the

21:54

medical examiner's office? The witness says not that

21:56

I'm aware of. She also points out there

21:58

was no information along to the

22:01

medical examiner's office by any of Tammy's

22:03

kids or Chad. She also points out

22:05

the coroner is not a medical doctor

22:07

but he is a forensic pathologist. He

22:09

is a medical doctor. Anemia means you

22:12

don't have enough healthy red blood cells

22:14

and it can happen for a lot

22:16

of reasons such as an iron deficiency,

22:18

heavy menstrual periods, cancer, traumatic

22:21

blood loss. It could be progressive and

22:23

he said with anemia your body can't

22:25

compensate for it to some extent. You

22:27

might be a little fatigued. You might

22:30

see it more if you go from

22:32

sea level to the mountains. You might

22:34

feel the difference but most times anemia

22:36

is treatable. Tammy had it five

22:38

years before her death and it wasn't

22:40

mentioned again in her medical records as

22:42

a problem. There was no indication of

22:45

a blood pressure or seizure disorder.

22:47

Tammy was on the low-ish

22:49

side of normal or blood pressure

22:51

but no diagnosis of hypotension. No

22:54

indication of any negative interactions with

22:56

her meds and her herbal

22:58

remedies. Prior kind of gets a little mad

23:00

here and asks what medical records he's referring

23:02

to but judge Boyce overrules it.

23:05

His face got red like a mader y'all.

23:07

He can hypothetically say the bruises were consistent

23:09

with someone being restrained. The

23:11

prosecution asked is it possible someone was

23:14

restraining her while someone else was suffocating

23:16

her and the witness says yes. But

23:18

based on his expertise his opinion is

23:20

it's not likely she died of a

23:23

seizure, cardiac arrhythmia, a

23:25

drug overdose, or a drug

23:27

reaction. His medical opinion

23:29

is she likely died of asphyxiation

23:32

and the manner of that

23:34

was homicide. Prior was

23:36

allowed to do a very limited re-cross.

23:39

There were two kinds of medical records according to Prior

23:41

2017 and 2019. The witness

23:46

says there was one from 2015

23:48

and 16 as well. The anemia

23:50

diagnosis was in 2017.

23:53

Prior asked how do you know that was treated and

23:56

the witnesses there's no mention of treatment.

23:58

That was his last question. This

24:00

witness may be subject to recall. The

24:02

next witness before launch, Alice Gilbert, a

24:05

neighbor of the Daybells. She

24:07

and her husband moved in March of 2017 to the neighborhood.

24:09

The Daybells were

24:11

already there. They were all in

24:14

the same ward and she got to know

24:16

Tammy through the same church calling. Tammy was

24:18

the witness's first counselor and they met one

24:20

time a week and also on Sundays. She

24:23

said they got the calling in October of

24:25

2018 and they worked together up till Tammy's

24:28

death. She said Tammy was great to work with.

24:30

She was organized, did the computer

24:33

work really quickly, organized activities.

24:35

They really valued her opinion

24:37

and Tammy would say to

24:39

keep things simple. She

24:41

was empathetic to women struggling in the

24:43

ward and also had a good wit

24:45

about her. She saw

24:48

Chad and Tammy interact at church and they

24:50

seem normal. Chad would come help

24:52

set up chairs for activities but

24:54

she saw their interactions change in 2019. She just

24:56

saw there was

24:58

a distance between the two of them.

25:00

Tammy didn't really talk about her marriage

25:02

to the witness but she did say

25:04

that finances were a little strained at

25:07

times. She never saw Tammy slow down

25:09

or any change in her activity level

25:11

prior to her death and Tammy

25:13

never complained about her health. The witness

25:15

never saw any shaking or fainting or anything

25:17

like that when she was with Tammy. She

25:19

found out Tammy died the morning of the

25:21

19th. Emma, Tammy and Chad's daughter,

25:24

called her. She was sobbing. Then

25:26

Chad took the phone and asked the

25:28

witness not to tell anyone for about

25:30

an hour that Tammy had passed. The

25:32

witness said she really needed to tell

25:34

the bishop and Chad said not to

25:36

but she did it anyway. She was really

25:39

surprised she had just talked to Tammy on Wednesday.

25:42

Tammy was excited about a new grand baby

25:44

they just had. They talked about Mark's mission

25:46

and she was just excited for things in

25:48

general. The witness went to the house around

25:50

8 30 in the morning that Tammy

25:53

died and Chad answered the door. Gave him

25:55

a hug, went in and all the

25:57

kids were there except for Mark who was on

25:59

his mission. and the kids had their

26:01

spouses, they were in the living room. She

26:03

said they could hardly speak. They were just

26:06

stunned and crying. She asked Chad what happened.

26:08

He gave her the vomited at midnight story

26:11

and they think she died at 2 a.m. He

26:14

said her legs were hanging over the bed. She

26:16

fell off the bed and they think it was

26:18

an embolism. She didn't think his demeanor was really

26:20

what it should have been. He was not as

26:22

upset as the kids and he

26:24

just did not act devastated. She knew

26:26

Tammy had clogging and they had activities

26:28

at church actually and Tammy would leave

26:30

early to go to those clogging classes. She

26:33

also says Tammy did not have a cough the

26:35

last day she saw her. That morning the kids

26:37

had not had breakfast so her and her husband

26:39

decided to go get them some and

26:42

as they went to leave, Chad told her

26:44

the funeral was on Tuesday. Now this

26:46

was a Saturday that Tammy died, weekend. Can't

26:48

get a lot done, right? She

26:50

asked if he had planned that and he said no but

26:54

she said she knows what it takes to plan a

26:56

funeral with a ward, you have to organize

26:58

the church, you have to get the ladies in

27:00

the church to agree to provide a meal, you

27:02

have to ask people to volunteer to do that, it

27:05

all takes time. And also it's

27:07

a drive to Springville, Utah from where they

27:09

live. She was also surprised they were gonna

27:11

bury her in Springville because they were in

27:13

Idaho. She did go to the funeral and

27:15

she gets really upset and cries and says

27:17

she needed to see Tammy in the casket

27:20

so they decided to make the trip and she

27:22

said Tammy looked nice. At the viewing she noticed

27:24

Chad was standing by the casket and he didn't

27:26

seem, in her words, mournful.

27:29

The witness told Chad, Tammy looked good

27:31

and Chad agreed but there were no

27:34

tears. When they went into the

27:36

chapel to sit for the funeral she sat with

27:38

their bishop who also drove down for

27:40

the funeral. Chad and all of the kids

27:42

spoke at Tammy's funeral, Chad spoke last. She

27:45

said she was very impressed with the

27:47

kids' talks, it was heartfelt, loving tributes

27:50

but Chad was more like church talk

27:52

and it wasn't heartfelt. There was a

27:54

memorial in Idaho the day after her

27:56

funeral in Utah but the witness did not

27:58

attend. She did take a meal. to the

28:00

day bells after the memorial in Idaho. The kids

28:02

started to eat and Chad told her he was

28:05

moving out. He couldn't be there and that he

28:07

was moving to a condo in Rexburg. They asked

28:09

if he needed help and he said no. His

28:12

friend had a condo for him. The friend

28:14

wasn't there much and told Chad he

28:16

could use it. The prosecution points out

28:18

Tammy dies on Saturday and by that

28:21

same Wednesday, he had plans to move

28:23

out that same morning of the memorial

28:25

there in Rexburg. Chad told his kids

28:27

to go through Tammy's things and that

28:29

surprised the witness. But the kids took

28:31

it in stride and went through her

28:33

things. The witness went to see Emma

28:35

on Friday at Emma's house, this catty

28:38

corner to the day bells and then Garth

28:40

was living in the daybell house. Emma was

28:42

sobbing and struggling. She was getting sick. She

28:44

was losing weight. People were taking

28:46

meals to her and Garth. Emma talked about

28:48

how much she missed her mom. She said

28:50

Garth was struggling as well. Chad was not

28:52

there. He moved out after the memorial. She

28:54

reached out to him to see how he

28:56

was doing on October 26. This

28:59

is one week to the day after Tammy's

29:01

passing, by the way. They

29:03

asked to come visit him and he said no, he

29:05

would come to their place. So he

29:07

came that evening. Chad sat at

29:09

their kitchen table. The witness had made cookies

29:12

and Chad said he found the woman he was gonna

29:14

marry. And the witness said her

29:16

and her husband were absolutely stunned. They asked where

29:18

he met her and he said a conference in

29:20

St. George in 2018. They

29:23

asked who and at first Chad didn't

29:25

wanna say and then he says

29:27

the name Lori Valo. Chad

29:29

told the witness that Lori did podcasts

29:32

with Melanie Gibb and then the

29:34

witness realized who this was. That next Tuesday

29:36

she meets Lori. The witness and her husband

29:38

were waiting for a meeting at a church.

29:40

They were at the temple. Chad tapped him

29:42

on the shoulder and they went out in

29:44

the hall. Lori was there.

29:46

Melanie was there and someone she doesn't

29:48

know who they were. Chad and Lori

29:50

came to the witness's house that same

29:52

week. It was on a Friday. She

29:54

said it was unseasonably cold in Rexburg

29:56

that year. She asked Lori if she

29:58

was getting used to it. the cold

30:00

there, Lori said she had bought some

30:02

clothes. The witness said there was

30:04

a hard frost and it actually affected the farmers.

30:07

They were having to help each other get their

30:09

crops in. The witness says that Chad and Lori

30:11

sat on the couch and it was very awkward.

30:13

They were affectionate more than she ever saw with

30:16

him and Tammy. They were giggling

30:18

and laughing and she and her husband were

30:20

just really embarrassed. The witness asked Lori if

30:22

she had been married before and Lori said

30:24

her husband died in December of a heart

30:26

attack. When asked if she had

30:28

kids, get this, Chad said she

30:30

had a daughter that had recently passed

30:32

away. Lori stammers and kind of mentions

30:35

stepkids but there was no real answer

30:37

about her children. Lori did not

30:39

dispute Chad when he said she lost a daughter. Chad

30:41

told the witness and her husband that the two of

30:43

them had talked about getting married. They didn't know

30:46

where or when but they knew they

30:48

were taking his kids to Disneyland for Thanksgiving.

30:51

No mention of course of Lori's kids. The

30:53

witness assumed she just didn't have any

30:55

other children aside from this daughter that

30:58

Chad said she lost. There was no

31:00

details on how the daughter died

31:02

and the witness did not ask. Right before

31:04

lunch, the last thing she talked about, Chad

31:06

saying he was going to go to Hawaii

31:08

to write a book. She did not know

31:10

that they were actually going to live

31:12

there. So that was all that happened

31:14

before lunch. Some big testimony. I'll be

31:17

bringing part two later on this evening.

31:19

Hope you guys have a good rest of your day. We'll see. When

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