0:00

Jean Taylor: We're on the land of the Wurundjeri Woi Wurrung

0:02

people of the Kulin nation.

0:05

And this place is called Bulleke-bek in Naarm, which I've only found out fairly

0:10

recently, but I'm pleased to be able to use Bulleke-bek Naarm as the name of

0:15

the place I live in and pay my respects to the Wurundjeri Woi Wurrung people.

0:23

Nat Grant: Welcome to season five of the Prima Donna podcast, Sonic

0:26

portraits of Australian artists. These episodes, comprise interview recordings and original music, celebrating

0:33

creative elders across all disciplines.

0:36

The third episode in this series features Jean Taylor, a writer, publisher, and

0:40

activist, living on Wurundjeri Woi Wurrung country in Bulleke-bek, Naarm.

0:45

She has been a member of feminist activist collectives in the women's liberation

0:49

movement since the early 1970s and was a founding member of the performing older

0:53

women's circus (POW) for women over 40.

1:00

Jean Taylor: My name's Jean Taylor. I'm a writer, radical lesbian, feminist publisher archivist.

1:08

I'm also a grandmother. I've been living here in Bulleke-bek, Naarm for.

1:16

Since 1970, um, I really liked the area, the urban area,

1:21

and I think I was very lucky. I, I just sort of lucked into getting into, um, Bulluke-bek or

1:27

Brunswick as it's called and, and haven't moved since I've I find it

1:32

a very vibrant suburb back in 1970.

1:35

Of course it was much more working class migrant area, and there

1:40

are still lots of that around.

1:44

But it has gentrified a lot since that time.

1:48

Of course. , I've been at a radical lesbian feminist activist since the, I

1:56

came out in 1979 as a lesbian.

2:00

But before then I was radical feminist in the women's liberation movement as well.

2:05

So, and I've worked in refuges.

2:10

Written books about the women's liberation movement and the activism, because

2:15

having a joined the archive group back in the day, uh, I've a great believer

2:22

in documenting all of our actions and what we're doing, because I'm a

2:27

writer I've documented as as a writer.

2:30

I started writing as a child. I really liked the idea of writing I'm an avid reader.

2:35

Most writers are avid readers. And so I was reading very much from very early age in books and loved them.

2:42

And so I decided that when I was. It's still primary school, actually that I would write a book, which I did.

2:50

It was only a small little book and I used to read it to my

2:53

younger brother who liked it. But then through my teen years about the only thing I was doing or in the way of

2:59

writing was compositions for schools. I think in our teen years, especially for young women, uh, teenage girls,

3:05

it's very hard to do anything outside schoolwork because you're expected to, you

3:11

know, excel, do you know, these show an interest and in amongst everything else

3:18

that you go it's happening as a teenager.

3:20

So it wasn't, I didn't actually start writing seriously as an adult until

3:26

I tried cause I was pregnant 17.

3:30

I got married at 18 and had a couple of kids by the time I was 19.

3:33

So I was fairly busy, sort of through my late teens.

3:36

I had started training as a nurse and left that when I became pregnant.

3:40

And um, then I really, it was then that I thought I want to start

3:44

writing again, but I just could not do it with the kids in the house.

3:47

There was no way I could do writing when there's babies around and toddlers,

3:53

because you need to oversee them and watch them every minute of the day.

3:57

Plus I was working in between pregnancies. We didn't have enough money.

3:59

Of course, back in back then I was doing some nursing.

4:04

And so it wasn't until my children went to kindergarten, you know, there was

4:11

big push in those days for kids to go to kindergarten before they went to school.

4:15

And there were three and four and I had three hours.

4:18

A day. And that's when I started writing and wrote my first novel in those couple

4:23

of years, I only wrote fiction for many years and I had a pseudonym, Emily

4:29

George and I published my work too.

4:32

From 1976 onwards.

4:35

I had this idea that I'd start writing, I'd send the book off

4:38

and it would get published and.

4:41

When that didn't happen. And I, I had other books that I wanted to write.

4:44

I thought, well, I'm going to have to just keep writing and hopefully,

4:48

you know, and then mid seventies.

4:51

And I realized that getting published was a lot harder than just writing and

4:56

I still wanted to continue writing. And when I was at Latrobe uni, because I went back as a mature aged student

5:03

and got a degree, which I haven't used it, but it was extra curricular.

5:07

activities. I really liked. And I was on Rabelais, a student newspaper for awhile and learnt about publishing

5:15

in as much as then I was doing kind of cutting and pasting, you know, corrections

5:19

those days, you did everything by hand.

5:23

And I thought, well, this is fairly straightforward.

5:25

I could do that. And I, by the time I was in the women's liberation movement, we

5:31

just all encouraged each other. You want to do this?

5:33

Just do it. You know, we're gonna put out a book just do it so I published my first

5:39

book in 76 went overseas in 77.

5:44

And when I came back on 78 and 79 and 80, I put out three more books

5:50

and I started with the poetry. Then I did short stories and then I did two novels.

5:55

And then I took a break for a while. By the time I came out as a lesbian and I started seriously writing my books even

6:01

more so, and didn't get back to publishing til 84 when I set up Dyke books.

6:10

So it's putting out two novels a year working and saving all my money,

6:14

went into publishing in those days.

6:17

And, uh, because that's what I wanted to do.

6:19

Just write and publish. When I first started publishing, I was very hesitant.

6:28

It was an embarrassing thing to do to put your work out into the world.

6:31

But I realized that once your books in your hand, it's a completely

6:36

different thing from scribbling on a bit of paper over here.

6:39

Suddenly you've got a recognizable product and I stopped being embarrassed.

6:45

And I realized that I had fallen into a good way of, um, not only doing my writing

6:54

cause I was, I still had to discipline myself and I started being really, quite

6:58

disciplined about it, but I could also publish my work, which is an absolutely,

7:02

you know, free, freeing up and.

7:06

As many women have done over the years, you know, for Virginia Woolf set up her

7:10

own publishing house with her husband. And she actually writes that she was one of the luckiest person, you

7:17

know, writers in the world that, cause she knew that whatever she

7:20

wrote, she could get published. And that is such a freeing thing.

7:24

If you've got control of your writing and your publishing, you can, you know, as a

7:29

writer, the world's your oyster, really.

7:32

So even though I have had one book published by spinifex press the C

7:36

word, um, I've continued to self publish and these books were a

7:41

bit later into the late nineties, I wasn't, um, publishing so much.

7:47

Didn't have enough money and I'd sort of left it a bit, but still writing.

7:52

And, um, then I realized that I really needed to as an activist for 30 years as

8:00

an archivist for about 20 years, by that stage and an activist since the early

8:07

seventies that if anybody who was going to document our women's liberation movement

8:13

and our radical lesbian feminist activism.

8:17

I was in this prime position to do that.

8:19

Cause I had the three, I was , I knew I could write it

8:23

uh, because it was non-fiction. I was writing under my own name then.

8:27

So I think as I've got older, I've become much more interested in non-fiction

8:37

and it's reflected in somebody like Helen Garner, for example, who's

8:41

written lots of, uh, fiction, and now she's almost exclusively writing

8:45

non-fiction and I've just finished reading her third diary that she put out.

8:51

And I think making up stories is, is excellent.

8:54

And, um, and I enjoyed that when I was doing it, but now I wonder.

8:59

Yeah, the reality of life rather than, you know, make up storiesso much.

9:05

When I first started writing, uh, I thought it would be simple,

9:09

just pen and paper and write away.

9:12

And it's not, of course, you know, and especially when you're starting out.

9:16

And so I was determined to do it because.

9:20

At the end of the day, if I hadn't written, uh, I'd feel badly.

9:24

You know, I wrote mainly because I did not want to feel that feeling at the

9:30

end of a day that I hadn't written. So I'd start in the morning.

9:35

The kids would go off , I'd take the kids to kindergarten and I

9:39

eventually had to go and go to the.

9:42

South Melbourne library we're living in south Melbourne at that stage is the sixties.

9:46

And because if I just started at home, I think I'll just do the dishes.

9:50

I'd procrastinate, like mad. And that was no good either.

9:54

So I'd be at the library and I sit myself two pages a day, two foolscap

9:59

pages a day, cause that was achievable. And that was just for those couple of hours at the library.

10:05

It was so painful and excruciating.

10:09

But, but once I'd finished and I'd try and finish in the middle of a sentence

10:13

so that it would I'd think, oh, yes, I've just finished that sentence.

10:16

And the next day on the next page, I wouldn't be starting

10:19

with a blank page so much. I'd be starting at the middle of a sentence and I could finish it off.

10:24

So I had these little tricks to get myself into the way of writing.

10:28

Time went on and I was doing that and it was, you know, it got a lot, a lot easier.

10:40

And only because I made sure that I was doing it every day and in the morning,

10:46

primarily because of the kids would be at school, et cetera, et cetera.

10:50

And then I had to learn to type, had to teach myself to type

10:53

cause I had to type them up. So that was another way of editing as I went along so I could send

10:59

them off to publishers and things. And then of course, when I started publishing my books, I'd be

11:04

sending, sending them to the type setter so that the type setter

11:07

would type them up for publishing. So the time I'd finished typing up my first novel I

11:15

could type, I knew what to do. I'm still a two finger typist, but it's better people would say

11:26

to me, Jane, you've got to get what you don't have a computer.

11:29

What is this? You're a writer and you haven't got a computer.

11:32

I go, no, no, no, no. I'd sit up in bed every morning and write.

11:37

Uh, longhand. That's how I write.

11:40

And it's that connection with the writing. And I liked that and yes, but when you start, you know, people say

11:45

better computer so much easier. No, no, no.

11:48

So eventually of course I did. So I started seeing benefits, but I thought I'll still,

11:54

probably still do it in longhand. And then I'll type it all up, which I started doing typing up my books.

12:01

And then after a while, much to my astonishment, I found that I was

12:05

writing directly into the computer. And that, that was so easy because you could just switch around,

12:11

you know, as we know, cutting and pasting is so much simpler.

12:14

So I thought, oh, well, I'll just continue doing that because it was convenient.

12:19

It was. obviously something that I was getting good at as well.

12:24

I could just write directly onto the computer. And then the ease of that in terms of not having to double up , write

12:30

and then type was monumental. I have no trouble about disciplining myself.

12:37

The discipline has been there for decades now.

12:41

And also my favorite thing to do is write, you know, I have the joy of

12:47

writing now is partly because I have disciplined myself that anything

12:51

it's, it's an easy practice now. It's not something I have to angst over.

12:56

I don't care if the right, the reading public likes it or not.

13:01

I don't have to worry about that. I'm not a famous writer.

13:04

In fact, I've, you know, stepped back from that a long time ago, because I

13:10

do not want that angst that writers have Helen Garner, for example,

13:14

terrified every time a book comes out and Virginia Wolf would nearly have a

13:17

nervous breakdown every time, a book was coming out, I don't have any of that.

13:22

It doesn't worry me if nobody buys my books or whatever I

13:27

haven't promoted them you know. I haven't ever gone out of my way to try and make a living out of it.

13:35

Ever. I've never made a living out of it, all my money goes into

13:38

publishing and publishing my books. And because of my age now I'm 77.

13:46

I'm no longer writing big books. They've thought of writing a huge book.

13:50

It's just too much for me now. I'm very lucky. I did that in my sixties when I was relatively young, but I knew if I

13:55

didn't do it in my sixties, when I still had a lot of energy, actually

13:59

in my sixties, I would get to 70ish, and I might not get them done.

14:04

So I was on a trot through the sixties to get those three huge books done.

14:09

Plus another book that I put out a couple of years ago.

14:17

The thing is that because I've been in the women's liberation,

14:21

Victorian women's liberation, lesbian feminist archives since 1984.

14:25

And I've been a dedicated archivist all that time.

14:29

All that stuff is now at the university of Melbourne archives.

14:32

And, um, a lot of my materials already there.

14:34

And they've been happy to take my, all my old manuscripts.

14:37

So there's a whole archive of my writing and these books will go in there.

14:43

In 91, Donna Jackson, a good friend decided that she was

14:57

going to do a women's circus. Now.

14:59

By that time, I, I was. Getting off of my late forties.

15:04

And I thought, I perhaps that can be a clown, you know, anyway,

15:07

got to the surface I'm joined and Donna didn't like clowns at all.

15:11

So I was immediately thrust into this environment, where I was learning physical

15:16

circus skills at 47, I was learning to walk on stilts and do tumbled, everything.

15:22

I loved it. One of the best community theaters.

15:27

Uh, there are about a hundred of us at, at the end of the year show.

15:30

Some were techies and the rest of us were performers, you know, it was brilliant.

15:35

And so that was my life.

15:37

Every year I was in the circus for about six years.

15:42

I was starting to run circus workshops. If I went to a lesbian festival or a lesbian camp, or, you know, I

15:48

started doing circus workshops and teaching other lesbians circus skills.

15:53

And I was going to a camp called the national 10 40 conferences,

15:59

which were for every Easter, for lesbians and feminists over 40 and

16:04

ran the usual circus skills workshop.

16:07

And somebody said, look, I think Jean you should organize.

16:11

Uh, circus for lesbians over 40 or women over 40.

16:16

And I said I'm far too flat chat cause I was training in the contingent

16:20

to go to Beijing for the women's forum there, with the circus.

16:24

And I was doing it you know my use usual writing and etc.

16:26

And anyway, but once the idea got into my head, that was it.

16:29

So the beginning of 95, I set up circus skills workshops for women over 40.

16:40

I was a bit worried that I might've been setting women up

16:43

for failure, but it was not true. These women could very easily do trapeze or climbing ropes or all of the things,

16:51

stilt walkers, within a couple of months, we had stilt walkers and, and, uh,

16:57

everything, people on a bike, everything.

17:03

So I was the director and I was sort of part of the show, but I'd fill in

17:06

if we needed somebody else to do it. So I was sort of a director on set really that suited me.

17:17

That again was another vibrant thing, but because I was in charge of it,

17:22

you know, in charge in terms of I'd set it up, it was not as relaxing as

17:26

in the women's circus in the women's circus, I was one of 50 women on stage.

17:30

Donna Jackson was in charge. I didn't have to do anything except do this, do that and learn that.

17:34

And you know, and it was much freer.

17:37

So I was doing both there at one stage. I was doing women's circus and I was doing POW.

17:44

So I was running workshops in POW and doing a whole range of things.

17:49

So it was very, very demanding.

17:52

And then part way through that, my lover at the time was diagnosed

17:56

with cancer and I realized I could not keep that pace up anymore.

18:01

I was in my fifties by that stage, which is still relatively young, but

18:05

that was a physically and emotionally demanding life I was living.

18:12

And I don't regret stopping both circuses, continued on the women's circuses even

18:17

mega more than, than it was back then.

18:20

And, and the same with POW. POW a little bit less so, but it's still going strong and we're still

18:27

coming up to the pride March, uh, myself helping to carry the POW banner in

18:33

the pride March for the last well, we were in the first pride March in 96.

18:39

So all of that time from then In little ways, I'm still connected with POW.

18:46

And I still see it as a really very, very useful and, um,

18:52

uh, physically challenging, but really quite it's showing.

18:57

Older women can do things that they were not expected to do.

19:03

And I, I, I rather suspect is probably when it started.

19:07

It was probably the only one in the world of, you know, training women

19:11

over 40 to be circus performers.

19:23

The thing that we underestimated in the in the seventies, Is that the patriarchy

19:29

is this multi-billion dollar monolith of, out to kill with wars there's at any

19:37

one time, it was about 40 wars happening on the planet that the munitions

19:42

industries, another multi-billion dollar industry, the internet has huge

19:47

advantages, but has huge disadvantages.

19:51

We're stuck with it now. There's no way we can get out of the internet anymore that's it.

19:56

So they try to make people accountable, but they don't care.

19:59

Nobody cares. But the, the fact that we had a megalomaniac in the white house, in

20:07

the richest, most dominant country on the planet for four years, that's

20:16

the sort of world we live in. I mean, this idea that civilization .Has got better and it had.

20:24

Life has got better for most of us really compared to where we've come from.

20:30

But for a lot of people, it hasn't at all.

20:35

You know, it might've got better, but it's still not anywhere near.

20:39

You know, places like India, China, even the states, you know, there's

20:43

still got capital punishment Here.

20:45

The refugee thing. How we treat Aboriginal people is absolutely appalling.

20:51

It's got better, but so no where near as good as it could be.

20:55

So we have. To the best of our ability and our own small way.

21:01

That's how I see that. I only in my own small way, if I am not living as closely as

21:06

possible to how I want the world to be, I'm bullshitting myself.

21:17

Nat Grant: You've been listening to the Prima Donna podcast, Sonic

21:20

portraits of Australian artists .For more information about the project

21:24

and to hear more episodes like the. Visit prima Donna podcast.com.

21:29

This podcast was produced on the lands of the Wurundjeri people

21:32

of the Kulin nation, and I pay respects to elders past and present.