0:03

Welcome to Profound

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thought leaders into a

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conversation to address the

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vexing challenges of our times.

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In an ever evolving world. New

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ideas and transformative ways of

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being are the lights at the end

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of the tunnel. Please join us as

0:36

we participate in critical and

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Profound Conversations impacting

0:40

humanity. I would like to take this

0:41

opportunity to introduce our

0:45

moderator for session two.

0:45

Again, Joia Jefferson Nuri with

0:50

in the public eye

0:50

communications. Joy has coached

0:54

more than 50 C suite executives

0:54

and scheduled written and

0:58

coached 12 TED Talks, including

0:58

her own with to march present in

1:03

fall of 2020. She has written

1:03

and coach congressional and city

1:07

council testimony for DC

1:07

government agencies and human

1:10

rights group. It was our honor

1:10

to deliver the keynote address

1:15

before 53 nations at the

1:15

Organization for Security and

1:19

Cooperation in Europe in Vienna,

1:19

Austria. Joia has also been on

1:24

the leadership teams at NBC,

1:24

CBS, c span and BT working as a

1:29

senior producer, anchor reporter

1:29

and host Welcome back, Joia.

1:35

Thanks, Alex. I appreciate being

1:35

able to do panel too. I'm

1:40

looking forward to this. organ

1:40

transplantation is a process of

1:44

surgically transferring a

1:44

donated organ to someone

1:48

diagnosed with organ failure.

1:48

Many diseases can lead to organ

1:53

failure, including heart

1:53

disease, diabetes, hepatitis and

1:57

cystic fibrosis and injury and

1:57

congenital disabilities may also

2:03

cause organ failure. Many call

2:03

organ donation the elixir of

2:09

life in mid 2007 15, the

2:09

Washington regional transplant

2:14

community, a Northern Virginia

2:14

based organ procurement

2:18

organization, reached out to

2:18

local Islamic leaders on a quest

2:23

to understand on why Muslim

2:23

families were declined to become

2:27

registered organ donors and why

2:27

so many Islamic families would

2:31

refuse to authorize the donation

2:31

of their deceased loved ones.

2:36

Oregon's when they were

2:36

approached by op opio family

2:41

team members throughout the

2:41

following year, the insurance in

2:47

soilwork commonly culminated I

2:47

can talk I can actually talk

2:50

these slowly were accommodated

2:50

in the first of its kind thick

2:54

forum hosted by the

2:54

International Institute of

2:58

Islamic thought and the fig

2:58

Council of North America. The

3:03

goal was to bring thought

3:03

leaders from both the American

3:06

Medical and Islamic community to

3:06

reach a consensus on organ

3:10

donation is their opposition to

3:10

organ transplant procedures

3:16

based on religion, culture, or

3:16

race. If so, why? joining us on

3:23

this panel our thought leaders

3:23

on the topic Amanda hurry Abdul

3:28

Malik is a founding member of

3:28

the soulful Muslims organization

3:35

in DC and the Muslim alliance in

3:35

North America. The Imam is the

3:42

first Muslim chaplain at Howard

3:42

University. Imam. Abdul Malik,

3:48

thank you for joining us. I

3:48

think the Imam hasn't joined us

3:53

yet so we're gonna Joia, Imam Johari will be

3:55

joining late.

3:58

Okay. Very good. Very good. I

3:58

see that we have caller Ross

4:02

here. column has been with ever

4:02

site, one of our co hosts today.

4:09

Since 1997. He's leading its

4:09

international efforts and

4:13

building collaborative

4:13

relationships with overseas

4:18

partners. Thank you, Colin. Is

4:18

it Colin or Colin?

4:22

It's Collin. It has 2 L's. Collin.

4:25

My mom wanted to make sure it

4:25

had two L's.

4:30

Okay, thank you. We also have

4:30

with us Monir, Moniruzzaman. I

4:37

hope I pronounced your last name

4:37

properly, is a medical

4:41

anthropologist in the Department

4:41

of Anthropology. anthropology at

4:45

Michigan State University. Yes, I'm here Joia. So you tried

4:49

very well for pronouncing my

4:53

last name, which is a long one.

4:56

Can you help me say it for me?

4:58

It's many resumes. meneer monir

4:58

is my first name and last name

5:05

is miniroos a man. Okay. Alrighty then I will call

5:07

you Monir. Yeah before you,

5:12

doctor. Because you have a PhD.

5:12

Kelly Ranum, are you with us?

5:18

I am with you. Yes. Hi. How are you today?

5:19

Kelly is the executive officer,

5:25

Louisiana Oregon procurement

5:25

agency, Kelly has been with LPA

5:31

for 23 years holding a multiple

5:31

clinical and managerial

5:35

positions. Over the last 18

5:35

years, she has led the

5:39

organization through numerous

5:39

hurricanes, mass floodings, and

5:43

winter events that are not

5:43

typical for the region. Thanks

5:47

for joining us. Thank you. Okay.

5:47

And she Abraham Kazu Ronnie.

5:55

He is currently also not in

5:55

attendance at the moment.

5:58

And I will read his bio when we

5:58

come up with this. And we also

6:02

have Leslie cup it on me. Do I

6:02

have that right Leslie?

6:09

Compagnone. Compagnone. I love it. Leslie is

6:12

the Director of Community

6:21

Affairs for the Washington

6:21

regional transplant community

6:25

has 20 years of experience and

6:25

as nonprofit in nonprofits

6:30

communications, public

6:30

relations, and community

6:32

education. Miss copan yamane has

6:32

dedicated her career to issues

6:38

of advocacy, working for a wide

6:38

range of nonprofit organization

6:43

and government entities. I want

6:43

to thank you all very much for

6:47

being here with us today. Okay,

6:47

I want to start with this

6:52

question that all of you I want

6:52

to answer is their opposition to

6:58

organ transplant procedures

6:58

based on religion, culture, and

7:02

race. Anybody can get us

7:02

started.

7:06

Oh, I'll go ahead and jump in.

7:06

And this is just to explain my

7:11

background a little bit and how

7:11

I how I come to this ever site

7:16

is an ibank organization. So we

7:16

are, we make the human

7:20

connection between the donors

7:20

and donor families of corneas

7:25

and other eye tissues. And the

7:25

patients who have their sight

7:30

restored through through those

7:30

donations. So it's a it has a

7:33

clinical component to it, but it

7:33

also has a very human component

7:38

to it. One of the important

7:38

parts of our mission at ever

7:42

sight is our international

7:42

outreach. Because corneal

7:46

blindness is not just a United

7:46

States phenomenon. It's it's a

7:51

worldwide need. In fact, there

7:51

are as many as 10 million people

7:55

in the world who suffer from

7:55

untreated corneal blindness and

7:59

can be helped through corneal

7:59

transplantation. So at our site,

8:03

we work in a variety of

8:03

countries and communities around

8:07

the world to help alleviate the

8:07

problem of corneal blindness.

8:11

And one of the ways we do this

8:11

is by helping our local partners

8:15

to build sustainable and

8:15

culturally appropriate systems

8:20

for ibanking and cornea

8:20

donation. Some of the places

8:24

where we work, many of the

8:24

places we work are majority

8:28

Muslim countries, the largest

8:28

program that we've been involved

8:32

in, is our recent program for

8:32

the last few years to build a

8:36

national system for ibanking,

8:36

and cornea donation in Pakistan,

8:41

which is 97%. Muslim country.

8:41

And so we've learned a great,

8:47

great deal, because we found

8:47

that you don't come into a

8:51

setting like that as the outside

8:51

expert and start prescribing

8:55

what needs to happen, the first

8:55

thing you have to do is you have

8:58

to learn and you have to listen.

8:58

And we've learned a great deal,

9:03

just from that process of

9:03

listening and speaking with

9:06

many, many stakeholders in the

9:06

community. And one of the

9:10

lessons that we've learned is

9:10

that while every community is

9:15

unique, there are also some real

9:15

commonalities in what we find as

9:21

far as the the challenges, the

9:21

misperceptions, the the myths,

9:25

the fears, the things that make

9:25

this a difficult topic for

9:30

people in communities are very,

9:30

very common across all

9:33

communities, although expressed

9:33

in in different ways in

9:38

different sort of frames, if you

9:38

will. So, for example, when you

9:44

ask someone in Pakistan, if you

9:44

start a conversation about

9:50

anatomical donation, whether

9:50

cornea donation, organ donation,

9:53

very often the response will be

9:53

something along the lines of I'm

9:57

not sure if my religion supports

9:57

that or my My religion doesn't

10:01

support donation, what that

10:01

usually means is they have not

10:07

been addressed culturally, this

10:07

topic has not really been

10:10

addressed culturally in that

10:10

setting, in a way that resonates

10:14

with that community. So there

10:14

may or may not be a truly a

10:19

religious component to it, but

10:19

there is very definitely a

10:23

cultural component to it. And

10:23

it's it's very, very, that part

10:27

of it, while expressed

10:27

differently and needs to be

10:30

addressed differently in

10:30

different communities also has a

10:32

strong element of universality

10:32

across many communities.

10:36

Monir are you comfortable with

10:36

addressing that in the religion?

10:43

I'm so sorry, that the sheikh

10:43

and Imam are not with us yet?

10:49

Yeah, just, you know, it would

10:49

be good idea to start with my

10:55

own work to have a context of

10:55

it. So I have been working on

10:59

human organ trafficking. So

10:59

that's my major area of research

11:03

and last 15 years or so, and

11:03

particularly looking in

11:08

Bangladesh and India and South

11:08

Asia mostly, that's the where I

11:11

am working, you know, for the

11:11

last 15 years or so, so, I have

11:16

been looking at the organ

11:16

transplantation which

11:19

established you know, 1971 and

11:19

onwards and how it has also

11:24

created a black market of human

11:24

organs as you know that there is

11:28

a serious shortage of organs the

11:28

demand and supply there is a you

11:34

know, huge gap and that propels

11:34

you know, those black market

11:38

where people can buy and sell

11:38

human body parts so that's the

11:42

research I've been doing it and

11:42

so particularly these you know,

11:47

forearm is really interest me

11:47

sparked my interest a lot

11:51

because people are what calling

11:51

he was describing that you know,

11:56

most of the people they don't

11:56

know what the implications of

12:00

donating a human organs and

12:00

saving somebody's life. Often,

12:05

you know, the all of the world

12:05

forums, the religious forums,

12:09

they came up with a you know,

12:09

statement, all the major

12:13

religion in the world, they

12:13

accept organ donation for saving

12:17

lives of somebody, I know, we

12:17

all gonna die, and even surely

12:21

know, somebody said we're born

12:21

to die in that sense. And these

12:25

organs going to be wasted in

12:25

that sense, you know, because we

12:28

either we're going to be buried

12:28

or cremated and those are going

12:32

to be wasted, why not saving

12:32

somebody is live and recycling

12:37

our body parts so that somebody

12:37

can you know, live longer and

12:40

see the lights of this world. So

12:40

there is a serious

12:45

misconceptions is going on all

12:45

the religious community, they

12:50

accepted organ donation not

12:50

buying and selling, which is

12:54

like, you know, no major

12:54

religion, they accepted it.

12:57

Because it's a God's body and

12:57

you know, people should not cash

13:01

on by selling it, you know, to

13:01

to anybody, you know, for

13:06

profiting. So the problem is in

13:06

here is the misconceptions. And

13:12

that is the biggest thing. And

13:12

many of these communities they

13:16

don't know, you know, they are

13:16

not our fate, that those

13:21

religious doctrines, they

13:21

accepted organ donation, there

13:24

are also different fatwas is

13:24

happened in Islam in other

13:28

religion, one group of Pharaoh,

13:28

Islamic, you know, fatwa, like,

13:34

you know, they follow that

13:34

doctrine that this is, okay.

13:38

Other group, you know, they

13:38

don't accept it, there is this

13:42

kind of, you know, dialectical

13:42

relationships between those two

13:46

groups, between few groups, you

13:46

know, I see. So these are some

13:51

of the problems and and that's

13:51

what there is the

13:54

misconceptions, you know, if we

13:54

work on it, and there is a big

13:59

number of people who are going

13:59

to stay forward and and even

14:03

community needs them, you know,

14:03

there is within the community,

14:07

you know, there is a need for

14:07

our guests, and there is not

14:10

enough supply. So that's what

14:10

where these problems are

14:13

happening. And, and rightfully

14:13

so what Colin described from

14:17

Pakistan, about his work. Yeah, and if I could piggyback

14:19

on that, Joe. Yeah, we're

14:24

calling a doctor morning we're

14:24

talking about is exactly

14:28

applicable to the work that I'm

14:28

doing in community education in

14:32

the DC metro area. I think we

14:32

all know now the world is

14:35

completely connected. We are no

14:35

longer singular countries. I

14:39

mean, we are all completely

14:39

connected and doing health

14:44

community education in the DC

14:44

metropolitan area. As you can

14:47

probably imagine, we have an

14:47

extraordinarily diverse

14:50

community, very transient

14:50

community. The latest US Census

14:55

data said that the DC

14:55

metropolitan area has the Lord

15:00

concentration of newly entered

15:00

Muslims in the country. So, and

15:06

they come with some of those,

15:06

those misconceptions and

15:12

preconceptions, but also their

15:12

reality they come from countries

15:16

where organ trafficking happens,

15:16

you know, so they are coming

15:20

from, from that context of an

15:20

inequity and of health risks and

15:25

of sort of that, that black

15:25

market scary feeling. So I

15:30

always tell my staff, like we

15:30

have to understand and meet

15:32

people where they're coming

15:32

from, and then have the

15:36

conversation with them about the

15:36

differences in the transplant

15:39

system here in the United

15:39

States. In that, you know, we do

15:43

not buy sell barter trade

15:43

organs. And also to the the very

15:48

first question of the religious

15:48

component, I agree with with the

15:53

panelists is a lot of people

15:53

don't understand that their

15:56

religion does support it. Also,

15:56

when you're in that moment, and

16:02

someone asks to authorize

16:02

donation on behalf of someone

16:06

you've just lost, the easy

16:06

answer to just shut that

16:09

conversation down is to say it's

16:09

against my religion. You know,

16:13

that's the easy, easy answer I

16:13

want out of this conversation. I

16:17

don't want to entertain it.

16:17

That's the easy answer. So

16:20

there's, as you can see, there's

16:20

a lot of challenges that we

16:25

face, and hence why, you know,

16:25

why cisi started asking the

16:30

question five years ago, is it a

16:30

good religion? If you're Muslim,

16:35

we just didn't know. So we

16:35

started on that on that journey.

16:38

Kelly, would you like to chime in here? Before we? Yes, I also think that, you

16:41

know, the congregation or the

16:48

people that go to the different

16:48

religions are? No, they're not

16:52

aware. But then when you get to

16:52

their faith based leaders, they

16:56

don't know the answer, either.

16:56

And so there's that kind of lack

16:59

of guidance, or I'm not sure I

16:59

haven't had to address this yet.

17:03

And so I think, you know, it

17:03

behooves us to be out there and

17:06

educating everyone in the

17:06

community. And I also think that

17:10

there's just a general mis top

17:10

mistrust of the healthcare

17:14

system, regardless of where

17:14

you're at, it's very prominent

17:18

in the southern half of this

17:18

country, that there's just a

17:21

distrust about medicine and how

17:21

we're gonna be taken care of,

17:24

and, you know, do you just want

17:24

my organs and you're not going

17:27

to save me. And so I think that

17:27

gets compounded when you start

17:32

talking about different

17:32

religions, different cultures,

17:36

and people coming here from

17:36

other countries. And, you know,

17:39

there's a lot of myths to be

17:39

dispelled.

17:43

As the African American

17:43

community, separate from the

17:48

Islamic community is very leery

17:48

of organ donation because of the

17:54

Tuskegee experiment. And for

17:54

those of you who don't know,

18:00

about four years, I think 14

18:00

years, syphilis was allowed to

18:08

run rampant in African American

18:08

men, as an experiment to see

18:14

what would happen if you don't

18:14

treat syphilis for the number of

18:18

years. That stay thing. And I'm

18:18

an organ donor. So when I talk

18:24

to others about doing it, I

18:24

don't care how old they are, or

18:27

how young they are. They say

18:27

tests or they are afraid that

18:33

your organs will be more

18:33

valuable to save a white person.

18:37

So don't take your organs before

18:37

you're dead. And so that is a

18:43

real fear. And I think we have a

18:43

mom Johanna with us now. The

18:48

mom. I see is not responding. So

18:48

we'll wait. So that is a real

18:54

fear. Greetings, I I am here.

18:58

Oh, welcome, mom. How are you?

19:01

Good, good. And in the age of

19:01

Corona, you can wind up being

19:06

anywhere on a webinar.

19:09

Yes. And I'm actually out of flight

19:10

that's delayed.

19:15

Okay, so we will be at the airport, but I'm, I'm

19:18

ready to join you. Okay, well,

19:22

let me bring you up to speed

19:22

sir. You can see the other

19:26

panelists who are here with us

19:26

and we've been awaiting you. The

19:30

question I asked at the

19:30

beginning of the program is we

19:33

set up organ donation and let

19:33

people know what it means. And

19:37

we let them know about the fic

19:37

forum that happened in 2016. But

19:42

the first question was, are

19:42

there religious blocks to

19:50

whether or not an organ donation

19:50

is right or not?

19:56

Well, you know, I'm gonna go

19:56

back to your your Comments

20:01

around the syphilis experiment

20:01

with African Americans, because

20:08

I think what's at the heart of

20:08

many of these issues is

20:13

folklore. Not not so much issues

20:13

of religious rulings. But of

20:20

course, culture, almost in many

20:20

cases has the weight of law. And

20:27

so, as you talk to Muslims, it

20:27

particularly at the difficult

20:33

times when someone is, is

20:33

experiencing a loss, it is a

20:38

time when those cultural

20:38

feelings bubble up. And because

20:44

of a lack of of knowledge about

20:44

what what the Quran says itself,

20:50

people will then lean toward

20:50

those cultural norms. And they

20:55

have their fears about the

20:55

misuse, the fundamental issue

21:01

that people raised is they say,

21:01

Okay, well, if my person is, in

21:04

fact dead, is their body being

21:04

mutilated, because there is a

21:12

narrative about the Prophet

21:12

Muhammad peace be upon him

21:15

saying that the bodies of the

21:15

dead should not be mutilated.

21:19

And this comes out of a context

21:19

of war, where people will abuse

21:24

the bodies of Muslims, who have

21:24

succumbed in battle. And so he

21:30

said, We don't do that. And so

21:30

that's where that that, that

21:34

that sense comes from, among

21:34

most Muslims knowing that that

21:39

tradition, and so they then say,

21:39

well, then you can't cut the

21:44

body of my deceased loved ones.

21:44

But when we look at the

21:50

overarching rules, the Quran

21:50

says, and the Quran is the

21:55

definitive Word of God. If you

21:55

can save the life of one person,

22:00

it would be as if you saved all

22:00

of humanity. And so we'd like to

22:04

think of this is as life giving,

22:04

not as someone damaging the

22:11

remains of someone who was

22:11

alive. And you will be surprised

22:16

once once people learn, and

22:16

place in context, these

22:21

competing folk narratives, and

22:21

that they are in a relationship

22:25

with people whom they trust, so

22:25

that they don't think they're

22:28

part of the syphilis experiment.

22:28

They actually think that these

22:33

are people who mean well, for

22:33

their loved one, they in turn,

22:36

will become individuals will

22:36

say, let me think about it. And

22:40

if you can say, I spoke to any

22:40

mom, and the mom taught us, and

22:48

if you like, I can give you that

22:48

mom's phone number. I'll put you

22:51

in contact with them. So now you

22:51

become a credible messenger. You

22:56

become someone? Can you tell us where in the

22:57

Quran we can find that if you

23:00

save the lives of one person you

23:00

save the lives of all of

23:04

humanity? Isn't a fifth chapter. Karima

23:06

have to help me out with the

23:09

verse. Okay, already? And maybe I'll

23:10

have that in the chat. And we

23:13

can tell people what that is. D then D.

23:18

How is it we there was indeed a

23:18

fic that came to an agreement

23:25

about organ donations for the

23:25

Muslim community, is that being

23:33

taught in the mosque is that

23:33

being spread throughout the

23:35

community in the United States

23:35

at least?

23:38

Well, you know, the wonderful

23:38

thing, and I apologize, I'm

23:43

literally at National Airport.

23:43

Good, good. I'm gonna I'm gonna

23:53

put my mask on. You know, over

23:53

the, over the past few years,

23:58

with the help of my dear friend,

23:58

Leslie Compagnone we were able

24:04

to present at national Islamic

24:04

conferences, which then becomes

24:10

part of the the record of Muslim

24:10

activity in America, discussing

24:17

this at the Islamic Society of

24:17

North America's conference,

24:21

which is attended by over 30,000

24:21

Muslims. So, so we've had many

24:27

opportunities outside of the

24:27

academic environment to begin to

24:32

present this information. And that is, and Kelly can

24:34

probably, yeah, yeah, I was

24:42

gonna say, you know, part of the

24:42

ongoing challenge that we're

24:46

facing is to then get that

24:46

information into the hands of

24:52

moms across the country, just as

24:52

email jamario was saying, for

24:57

them to be those credible

24:57

messengers. You know, it's it's

25:02

great to have the fatwa. But if

25:02

nobody knows about it, what good

25:07

is it? You know, so so I know

25:07

Kelly's got a staff of community

25:13

educators at her opio, just like

25:13

we do, who do that hard work of

25:17

going out in the community. And

25:17

that's not only educating the

25:21

Muslim population in that

25:21

community, but also teaching the

25:24

teachers teaching the Imams,

25:24

then how to then guide people

25:29

through that that discussion.

25:29

And so that's the ongoing work

25:31

right now. And that's really the hard work. Yeah, indeed, I mean, but it is,

25:33

it started out as a bottom up

25:41

going to conferences and, and

25:41

coming to local mosques to get a

25:45

buy in. And then moving all the

25:45

way to the top, getting a

25:53

National Board of well respected

25:53

scholars in America to join with

25:57

the opinions of scholars from

25:57

other countries. In saying that

26:01

this is something that that we

26:01

can do, and in some scholars

26:06

have even said, something that

26:06

we should do. Now, the challenge

26:11

is, as Leslie was saying, is to

26:11

get into the weeds to go out

26:14

into the local Mawson

26:14

communities. And I think really,

26:19

a lot of that work is going to

26:19

be partnering with Opie O's.

26:23

Partnering with opioids, working

26:23

with their local mosque, having

26:28

the community discussions, and

26:28

Muslim life planning is, is

26:32

really looking to be a partner

26:32

with opioids around the country

26:36

to get that work done. I have a question if you elicit

26:37

the aid of Muslim doctors.

26:46

And, in fact, the panels. Yes,

26:46

the panels that were hosted at

26:54

the national conferences were in

26:54

the in the section of the

27:00

conference organized by the

27:00

American Muslim Medical

27:03

Association of North America. So

27:03

now, the next step is now that

27:08

their national association has

27:08

endorsed us, is then for those

27:12

in local communities to be

27:12

shoulder to shoulder as Imams,

27:16

physicians, and community

27:16

leaders and op OHS all meet

27:20

together and local communities

27:20

to have this discussion. The key

27:24

is, there are there are places

27:24

where American Muslims gather to

27:30

look at end of life issues. The

27:30

fifth pillar of Islam is to

27:36

perform the pilgrimage to Mecca

27:36

once in your life if you're

27:39

able. Everyone who makes that

27:39

journey knows that they have to

27:44

fill out and make a will. And so

27:44

it's at the time of having that

27:50

discussion about the pilgrimage

27:50

to Mecca, which happens

27:54

annually. It's the largest

27:54

annual religious migration on

27:57

Earth. That, that we enter that

27:57

conversation at that time to say

28:04

while you're thinking about your

28:04

will and the pilgrimage to

28:07

Mecca, think about making an

28:07

eternal gift. A gift that the

28:13

Prophet Muhammad said that three

28:13

things remain after a person

28:17

dies. One a perpetual charity to

28:17

knowledge that benefits and

28:22

three a righteous child. And so

28:22

this is one of those things that

28:27

a person could give and would be

28:27

a perpetual donation to life

28:32

even after they have passed. Now, when when Collin was

28:34

speaking before you can one man

28:39

let him speak? real challenge

28:39

about getting donations of the

28:47

cornea for I don't lecture for

28:47

that organ donation.

28:52

Yes. The column when you talk to the

28:54

Mom, can you share with him?

28:59

I'm familiar with this discourse. Okay, okay, so we're shoulder to

29:04

shoulder. And do you know, we're

29:10

near who is also with us? Who

29:10

has the same problem with people

29:14

being fearful of harvesting?

29:14

Oregon?

29:18

Oh, weird. Oh, yeah. Well, I can

29:18

tell you now, we can't use the

29:22

word harvest or some other word.

29:32

what you were saying about your

29:32

work Yeah, come

29:36

on in. Hi. Yeah, my microphone was off. So,

29:39

you know just I was explaining

29:43

before we came in that my work

29:43

is looking at the people buying

29:48

and selling human organs. So

29:48

this is another D. humanize form

29:52

of in treating other humans are

29:52

part of we dislike in a donation

29:58

Can you know stop Those kind of

29:58

practices, so if you donated

30:03

like in our own body person

30:03

after death and, and saving

30:07

somebody's life, that's gonna

30:07

have a, you know, different kind

30:11

of impact, for example, the

30:11

black market cannot shrink, then

30:14

because it's going to be reduced

30:14

because be more and more people

30:17

are coming forward to donate

30:17

their organs. So, donation is

30:21

the key and, and is very

30:21

important, like, you know, to

30:25

save somebody's life, that's

30:25

what blood transfusion is one of

30:29

the thing you know, which first

30:29

came out, it's not written in

30:32

Quran, but you know, change over

30:32

time. And so, blood transfusion

30:38

is becoming a common thing

30:38

nowadays, cornea donation is,

30:41

you know, another aspect of it.

30:41

And so, so does the same way

30:46

that you know, our body parts,

30:46

you know, we can recycle it, we

30:49

can save other people's lives.

30:49

And that's the message, you

30:53

know, to, to conveyed to the

30:53

community. And that's what were

30:58

the discussion is very

30:58

important, you know how to do

31:00

so. Kelly, I'd like to hear your

31:01

thoughts on this, this

31:03

conversation. Well, while Kelly's trying to, I

31:06

did, I didn't want to share

31:11

something that when we when we

31:11

encounter Muslims in America,

31:16

who come from countries like the

31:16

Indian subcontinent, India,

31:21

Pakistan, Bangladesh, Gulf Gulf

31:21

countries, there is a black

31:27

market. And we have to explain

31:27

to them that in America, people

31:33

can't it's illegal to sell

31:33

organs. That it's illegal. It's

31:38

not a practice that we engage

31:38

in, in the United States. And

31:41

sometimes people are skeptical

31:41

because they know what happens

31:44

back home. So we're Kelly, I'm

31:44

gonna leave that to you.

31:48

Thank you, I. So the word

31:48

instead of harvest is to

31:52

recover. So if you're looking

31:52

for what to use, I guess they

31:57

often say harvest is for fields

31:57

and not for people. So we

32:00

recover and transplant organs. I

32:00

think that the unfortunate side

32:06

of the black market is that it

32:06

does exist outside of this

32:08

country. And it is often hard to

32:08

have the faith that the same

32:13

things don't exist over here.

32:13

And you know, yet another I

32:18

think as we start becoming more

32:18

of a one nation, right, instead

32:23

of different countries, we have

32:23

to consider those, you know,

32:29

that background and what people

32:29

are coming into the United

32:32

States with as an experience.

32:32

And we have to although we know

32:37

it's against the law here, and

32:37

it wouldn't happen. That doesn't

32:41

mean it doesn't happen in other

32:41

countries. And so I think we

32:43

have that responsibility to

32:43

educate, on things that just

32:47

fall outside of what we normally

32:47

experience. And I think that's

32:51

all part of trying to build a

32:51

trust in the system as a whole.

32:58

And you know, we are part of the

32:58

healthcare system, we aren't

33:00

always seen as part of the

33:00

healthcare system. And you know,

33:04

you often get people to say yes

33:04

to receiving an Oregon but then

33:07

they'll say, No, I don't want to

33:07

donate. And so I think we have

33:10

to bridge that gap and education

33:10

and trust through the community

33:14

through faith based leaders is,

33:14

is, for me, the only way to

33:18

really get that message out,

33:18

because it's starting with a

33:21

community that that has a belief

33:21

system and wants to help them

33:26

wants to do good things. And

33:26

then we spread from there.

33:31

This is this is absolutely

33:31

agree, this is something we've

33:36

confronted in our work in

33:36

Pakistan for an example, which

33:40

as Muneer pointed out, is one of

33:40

the one of the countries that

33:42

unfortunately, has had a problem

33:42

with illicit activity. And the

33:48

only way that you overcome that

33:48

is by building trust, which is a

33:54

painstaking process, because

33:54

it's very easy to lose trust,

33:57

and it's a very long term, you

33:57

know, process of engagement to

34:02

gain and build trust. One of the

34:02

keys that we found is the

34:07

institutions that are doing that

34:07

engagement, having the right

34:12

institutions being being engaged

34:12

with that institutions that are

34:15

already trusted on some level by

34:15

the community. Oh, we we have

34:22

found overcomes that particular

34:22

fear, actually quite well, it's

34:27

there, and you have to address

34:27

it. But we've actually found

34:31

that part of it not to be the

34:31

most intractable problem,

34:34

because when you have an

34:34

institution that's got a

34:37

relative degree of trust with

34:37

the community, and they see the

34:40

program being carried out in a

34:40

way that is well controlled,

34:46

that is respectful of the

34:46

community and its values. That

34:52

puts people much, much more at

34:52

ease. And there are many other

34:56

issues that we found that are

34:56

actually more persistent. Then

35:00

that fear of illicit activity,

35:00

although that is absolutely

35:04

something that, you know, needs

35:04

needs to be addressed this. I

35:07

think also, this topic points

35:07

out that interconnectedness that

35:10

we talked about earlier between

35:10

US and international communities

35:15

that as we start to address, you

35:15

know, put systems in place that

35:19

address the the illicit activity

35:19

problems in other countries.

35:23

Over time, the hope would be it

35:23

will be less and less the case

35:27

that people coming from those

35:27

countries to the US will have

35:31

that baseline assumption that

35:31

there's something shady about

35:34

this because they're, they'll

35:34

come from a country where there

35:38

is a functioning system in place

35:38

that's ethically sound and well

35:41

controlled. It's a long term

35:41

process might take a decade

35:45

might take two decades. But

35:45

that's you have to start

35:47

somewhere. Right? Okay, so I'm gonna wave

35:48

my magic wand. Going to allow

35:56

each of us each one of you to

35:56

set policy in this set a

36:02

message? How do we get this done

36:02

on a national level, at a global

36:09

level to one, let the community

36:09

know that they are supported by

36:14

words from the Quran. And that

36:14

organ donation is the elixir of

36:20

life. It helps save your family

36:20

member and it gives you this

36:26

save somebody else. So I'm going

36:26

to waive this one to let you all

36:31

marinate on it for just a

36:31

second. And I hope other people

36:35

who have already joined our chat

36:35

will marinate on this also

36:38

marinate. It's one of my

36:38

favorite words, to contemplate

36:42

this question. And

36:51

I'm going to let him get through

36:51

security. And then

36:56

I'm good to go right now. Okay, so I'm waiting

36:59

on my magic wand. And there's no budget. There's

37:01

no limit.

37:07

Exactly what to do. Okay. If we

37:07

could get Muhammad Ali, to go on

37:15

national television,

37:15

international television as a as

37:18

an American Muslim, to say I'm a

37:18

organ donor right here. And I

37:26

encourage everyone to join us.

37:26

And we came in at that level. We

37:30

have no problems. So we're not going to

37:35

we had a magic wand had a magic

37:35

wand. Yes.

37:39

That's right. It was a magic

37:39

wand. I can't limit magic wand.

37:43

Right. So I guess we'd have to

37:43

get to Hakeem Olajuwon or you

37:48

know, Kareem Abdul Jabbar or

37:48

somebody like that. Yeah. The

37:55

Mt. Hajj, Mohammed, the fencer.

37:55

She was in the Olympics to let

38:00

her go into the Olympics again,

38:00

and win a gold medal and come

38:05

out and say, I want everyone to

38:05

know that me to hatch with with

38:09

our sword up like that. Yes. I

38:09

encourage you to save a life by

38:15

by signing up and donate. Okay, I would go delicious

38:17

campaign. Okay,

38:21

there you go. We just we just

38:21

probably need like a million

38:23

dollars. So that's all but mad

38:23

magic wand, no budget. she would

38:34

probably do it for me for free.

38:34

As long as we had the ads paid

38:37

for. Right. We had the ads paid for

38:37

all right. There's that strategy

38:40

number one. Okay, I'm gonna go.

38:40

Okay, I'm gonna go to Kelly,

38:44

what would you? Oh, so many things. There's a

38:46

lot of carryover from the first

38:51

session. I think if I could wave

38:51

a magic wand and change the

38:57

health that exists, particularly

38:57

in the minority population would

39:01

be the first place I start

39:01

because if we could prevent them

39:04

from needing an organ

39:04

transplant, or prevent them from

39:09

dying of a brain death, because

39:09

they didn't take their

39:12

medication or because they

39:12

couldn't afford to take their

39:14

medication, then we don't have

39:14

donors so or if they could stay

39:19

healthy and something that

39:19

tragically happened, they became

39:21

a donor, they could donate their

39:21

organs and so their organs

39:24

wouldn't be unhealthy. And so I

39:24

think, for me, improving the

39:29

health of the population would

39:29

go a long ways in in showing

39:35

that faith and and giving an

39:35

opportunity to trust the

39:39

community that this is just a

39:39

regular everyday occasion. This

39:42

is kind of a rarity, but you

39:42

have an opportunity to do it.

39:45

And we've done everything as a

39:45

community around you to keep you

39:48

healthy, and keep you safe.

39:48

Things happen, unfortunately,

39:53

but that would be my magic one,

39:53

make the world a better place.

39:57

Thank you Kelly. We'll take that

39:57

Collin

40:01

Kelly's answer is better than

40:01

mine because she focused on

40:04

prevention, which as we know, is

40:04

and the health of the community

40:06

which our entire first session?

40:06

Oh, yeah, no, it's much, much

40:10

better answer. But my own

40:10

inadequate answer is that I

40:14

would actually, I would put in

40:14

place a comprehensive program of

40:19

cultural competency for all of

40:19

the eye banks and Opie O's in

40:24

the United States, because I

40:24

think these issues are common,

40:27

not just to our Muslim

40:27

communities, in all of the areas

40:31

that we serve across the US, but

40:31

in many, many minority

40:34

communities, many historically

40:34

underserved communities, as I

40:37

said, there's a universality to

40:37

these issues that's expressed in

40:41

different particular ways, but

40:41

it's that it's on that universal

40:44

basis that I think we should be

40:44

addressing it. And so I would

40:47

put in place comprehensive

40:47

programs for training and

40:49

education in cultural competency

40:49

for ibex and opms. Okay,

40:53

thank you very much. Monir?.

40:57

Yeah, so there is these are good

40:57

conversation. And I think, you

41:01

know, it's one thing not going

41:01

to feed for all in that sense,

41:05

because every community is

41:05

different and unique, you know,

41:09

so, the key thing is like, is

41:09

our harness. So that's what were

41:14

the key key word is like

41:14

informing community, that saving

41:19

life is not going against your

41:19

religion. So that's the basic

41:23

message in here. And I trust

41:23

very much that community members

41:29

will step forward, if the

41:29

message is right. And it say,

41:34

you know, we see that community

41:34

have this spirit, you know, and

41:38

that's the way even vote, this

41:38

vote happens, you know, I

41:41

encourage my students, and they

41:41

went and vote like, we can see

41:45

the eyes turn around. So these

41:45

are the situation, you know, the

41:48

weekend, if you motivate people

41:48

with clear message, and that

41:53

would be the key thing in here,

41:53

I just wanted to mention that I

41:58

was invited by Pope Francis at

41:58

the Vatican to get you know, a

42:01

group of people around the war.

42:01

So we went, we crafted a

42:05

document, and Pope Francis sign

42:05

it, and we signed it, and we

42:11

distributed all over the world,

42:11

in the religious institution. So

42:14

all over the world. So from the

42:14

Islamic community, you know, the

42:19

Imam was talking about, maybe

42:19

from Makkah, or, you know, this

42:24

kind of, you know, a force like,

42:24

where it's going to be

42:28

distributed all over the mosque.

42:28

And that could be the first

42:32

thing that, you know, those

42:32

confusions and what it is there

42:35

that can be reduced in many

42:35

ways. And then the, you know,

42:39

Emacs can spread out to the

42:39

community, with the clear

42:43

message that, you know, saving

42:43

life is not against Islam or any

42:47

other religious groups, you

42:47

know, so there is a lot of work,

42:51

but our harness is the key in

42:51

here. And if it is properly, you

42:56

know, in, people are properly

42:56

informed, I don't see any ways

43:00

that you know, people are not

43:00

going to stay forward, that's

43:03

happening, blood donation, that

43:03

that's happening in cornea

43:06

donation to some, you know,

43:06

extend and so, so this is the

43:10

key in here. And that's what

43:10

what I can think of, like, you

43:13

know, but again, there'll be

43:13

different layers of like, you

43:17

know, this our needs and

43:17

community level, like, you know,

43:20

in a bigger institutional level,

43:20

so those kind of things are very

43:23

important. And last, but certainly not

43:25

least, Leslie,

43:28

my magic wand. If I had a magic

43:28

wand, I would wave it in the

43:33

hopes that everybody in this

43:33

country can learn to see organ

43:39

donation as a societal

43:39

responsibility. You know, it is

43:45

it is, it is part of the good of

43:45

society. I don't want to make it

43:51

mandatory. We I don't opt for

43:51

it. I opt out. system, I think

43:56

you should be asked to the

43:56

question and you should opt in.

44:00

But I think it should be easy

44:00

for people to say yes, because

44:03

the wand has been waived that

44:03

they see donation and organ

44:06

donation. As part of what makes

44:06

this country great. What makes

44:12

the society great, what makes

44:12

your responsibility to your

44:15

fellow man. Great. So I would

44:15

love to see it as part of the

44:19

social contract of the country.

44:23

We have unfortunately run out of

44:23

time for this panel. I think we

44:27

could go on for another hour

44:27

because I have four questions I

44:30

did not get to. But I've enjoyed

44:30

this conversation. I hope our

44:35

audience has enjoyed our

44:35

conversation. And I love what

44:38

Leslie just said is our social

44:38

content contract with one

44:42

another around the world to keep

44:42

the next one alive. That is a

44:50

social contract we're doing with

44:50

COVID what we're doing with

44:53

social justice, and what we

44:53

should be doing what Oregon

44:56

trends plans to keep The next

44:56

one alive, healthy well and

45:03

whole. I want to thank everyone

45:03

for being here. I want to thank

45:07

the audience. And it has been a

45:07

pleasure for the things that I

45:12

have learned. And hopefully the

45:12

audience has learned as much, if

45:17

not more, and is motivated. I'm

45:17

gonna hand the program back to

45:21

Alex. And it's been a pleasure.

45:21

Thank you all.

45:26

Thank you so much, Joia. And

45:26

thank you, panelists. That was a

45:29

wonderful session. So I think

45:29

Linda will be joining us from

45:33

MLP AI, as well as Colin Ross

45:33

from Eversight.

45:38

Hi, Alex. Everyone's completed

45:38

the polls.

45:41

Yes, we'vekind of leveled out. Okay, we since we have leveled

45:43

out, I'm on. I'm Linda Howard

45:50

and I am the Chief Compliance

45:50

and impact officer for Muslim

45:54

life planning Institute. And

45:54

both sessions were wonderful

45:59

sessions. Enjoy it. for your

45:59

excellent moderation of both of

46:07

those sessions. And I would like

46:07

to ask a favor of you. I'd like

46:13

to borrow your magic wand. So

46:13

thank you very much for both

46:23

sessions. They were absolutely

46:23

magnificent. We want to MLP I

46:30

would like to just acknowledge

46:30

are a few people in in

46:35

organizations aracite Global

46:35

ibank and that work, Michigan

46:40

State University, the

46:40

Association of Oregon

46:44

procurement organizations, Henry

46:44

Ford hospital system, john

46:49

hopkins, Bloomberg School of

46:49

Public Health, access community

46:54

health and Research Center,

46:54

numerous children children's

47:00

hospital system, the Islamic

47:00

center of America, Washington

47:05

regional transplant community,

47:05

the Louisiana Oregon procurement

47:11

agency, and all of the Friends

47:11

of Muslim life planning

47:16

institute that have supported us

47:16

in our Profound Conversations,

47:22

our ideation lab, in these two

47:22

arenas, so thank thank all of

47:28

you for your participation. We

47:28

also like to acknowledge and

47:33

thank our Profound Conversations

47:33

lists, and of course, our hosts,

47:38

Julia Jefferson, Nori. And if

47:38

you missed the first session of

47:46

our arena, we had Dr. Pan Agus,

47:46

Molly Mac Mackey, Dr. bossy Dr.

47:55

Jesse, Dr. Walker and Steve

47:55

Miller, and I'm not sure if any

48:00

of them are still with us, but

48:00

we'd like to acknowledge and

48:04

thank them and for our session

48:04

to doctor and let me see if I

48:10

can get this right. Is it Monir?

48:33

Dr. Mr. tahari, as well. And

48:33

we'd also like to thank Detroit

48:41

Medical Center, the DMC

48:41

Foundation, gift of life

48:46

Michigan and gift of life

48:46

foundation. And I want to

48:50

acknowledge just a couple more

48:50

people that's that has been a

48:55

part of this and have not have

48:55

not spoken and s Jessica boo,

49:01

Maya Mart Mart, Taya Taita Alex

49:01

Tesco and Amanda, Frederick's

49:11

system. So thank you all for

49:11

your participation and for

49:16

making this possible on behalf

49:16

of Muslim life planning

49:19

Institute. And on that note, I

49:19

will turn it over to column with

49:23

two L's thank you i.

49:26

The lesson here for me is I'm

49:26

going to change my name to

49:28

something more complicated. I

49:28

would like to, I have a number

49:36

of things as well. I'd like to

49:36

start by thanking our our

49:40

sponsors, again are providers of

49:40

grant funding for this event,

49:44

the DMC foundation part of the

49:44

community foundation of

49:47

Southeast Michigan and the gift

49:47

of life, Michigan Foundation,

49:50

their support not only enabled

49:50

this program today, but all of

49:55

you know as Linda mentioned, the

49:55

ideation labs, all the

49:57

development work all the

49:57

learnings and connections that

50:00

went into this, all of which

50:00

were extremely valuable. And all

50:03

of that was made possible by DMC

50:03

foundation and gift of life

50:06

Michigan foundation. So we thank

50:06

them very, very much. I would

50:10

also like to thank Joya so much

50:10

did such a great job moderating

50:16

for us. It was great to meet you

50:16

virtually, inshallah, maybe

50:19

someday in person, but wonderful

50:19

to share this time and

50:23

experience with you. Also, both

50:23

of our sets of panelists as well

50:27

thank you so much for sharing

50:27

your wisdom with us. And being a

50:32

part of our event today. Thank

50:32

you to all of our attendees as

50:37

well, thank you for allowing us

50:37

to share this time with you. And

50:40

I hope that it was as valuable

50:40

for you as it was for us. And

50:46

like to thank my colleagues at

50:46

ever sight, Alex Teske, Amanda,

50:49

Frederick, Ramona, bonjour, and

50:49

many others that ever sight made

50:53

made this possible today. And

50:53

last, but absolutely not least,

50:56

I want to thank our partners

50:56

that Muslim life planning

50:59

Institute, Karim Ali, Linda

50:59

Howard Samuel Shareef. It's been

51:03

an absolute honor and a

51:03

privilege to share this journey

51:08

with you. And it's been quite a

51:08

journey, especially because of

51:10

COVID put us back, we should

51:10

have been doing this six months

51:13

ago and in person. And it would

51:13

have been really great. This was

51:15

really great also. So thank you

51:15

all for all of the the work and

51:20

heart and soul that you've put

51:20

into this. It's been great to

51:23

share this mission and I look

51:23

forward to our future adventures

51:26

together. So thank you,

51:26

everyone. And I believe this

51:30

concludes our program for today. Thank you for joining our

51:36

Profound Conversations. If you

51:39

found this episode helpful,

51:39

please subscribe to our podcast

51:42

and then gift this information

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51:45

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51:49

media platforms as well as on

51:49

our website at Profound

51:53

conversations.com Profound

51:53

Conversations executive

51:57

producers are the Muslim life

51:57

planning Institute and national

52:00

community building organization

52:00

whose mission is to establish

52:04

pathways to lifelong learning

52:04

and healthy communities at the

52:07

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52:07

level. The Profound

52:11

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52:11

produced by Erika Christie. The

52:15

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52:15

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52:20

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52:20

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52:25

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52:25

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