0:00

late january 1996, a

0:03

young fbi agent in the dc field office

0:05

named molly flynn gets an assignment from

0:07

her higher-ups there's a lawyer

0:09

in town named tony boselli who

0:12

claims to have a client who might know something

0:14

about the unabomber? go

0:15

talk to him when

0:16

i first

0:17

met tony, he

0:19

provided some

0:20

material and told me that he

0:22

did not even know the identity of the client, but he

0:24

considered himself to have a

0:27

and a retainer of sorts although

0:29

he was them free of charge

0:32

molly isn't on the universe task force

0:34

but she's in dc zoc investigation

0:37

when she can when she gets from

0:39

tony the lawyer is a bunch of letters

0:42

between tony's client and a person who's

0:44

writing sounds like it might be the you know

0:46

bomber my recall reading a

0:48

letters and

0:49

my first impression of

0:52

, person but you know they kind

0:55

of referenced mom and dad

0:57

helen a contacts on making understand

1:00

that the author in the recipient

1:02

are brothers

1:04

the letters were just the start their

1:06

other things as potential suspected written

1:09

including , that was written

1:11

in the early seventies that may

1:13

have been something of a precursor

1:16

to the you know bomb

1:18

manifesto

1:19

this was the essay that would eventually make it's

1:21

way to cathy pocket the ,

1:24

she got at the end of our last episode the

1:26

made the hairs on the back of her neck stand up

1:28

up a twenty three page typewritten essay

1:31

from nineteen seventy two six

1:33

years before the first you know bomb know molly

1:36

only has time to has it her job

1:38

is just to deliver the essay to the f essay i

1:40

lab but the f b i lab

1:42

is only interested i lab thing whether

1:45

the guy who wrote this essay used the same

1:47

typewriter as the you know bomber a think

1:49

they eliminate who within probably five minutes

1:52

the other similar looking for specific characters in

1:54

the attic they told me right there like now

1:56

this as mattress and i

1:58

recall st

1:59

okay well

1:59

scholar who gonna look

2:02

at the content because

2:03

that's when it was smiling for

2:06

and down

2:07

this route over some that to the task

2:09

force

2:10

the protocol analyze the typewriter

2:13

sample at the lab send the i say to

2:15

the task force and let them handle the rest

2:17

i'm always curious

2:19

there she gets her own copy of the essay and starts reading

2:21

more carefully

2:22

that i was looking at the essay

2:25

was like wow enough

2:28

i'm

2:28

the haven't heard from the task force

2:31

about this the material

2:34

because of the task force in san francisco

2:36

and asked to speak to one of the senior agents

2:39

joe moss and i asked him

2:41

i said hey joel do you have a copy

2:43

of this i say that we got

2:46

from , the here in d

2:48

c and i member him senate

2:51

well i'm not here said that the typewriter

2:53

doesn't match and

2:55

i saw why i realize that but i did

2:57

you get a copy of it and

3:00

he said well i don't know i haven't seen

3:02

it and as well i'm so sorry

3:04

i i , so the lab told

3:06

me they would send it to you and he said

3:08

well sometimes or fax machine doesn't work

3:11

so as well you

3:13

know your case better than i do but i think

3:15

you're really gonna wanna read this

3:19

this is project you know bomb

3:22

an apple original podcast produced by

3:24

pineapple street studios, i'm

3:26

eric benson episode

3:27

6, the devil's

3:29

dilemma

3:34

if you do just a few things about the unabomber,

3:37

you probably know his brother turned him in

3:40

and that's true sword us but

3:42

it makes the process sounds straightforward like

3:44

david kaczynski made kaczynski phone call phone morning

3:47

and f b i agent nodded solemnly on

3:49

the other end of the line and at night

3:51

the you know bomber was behind bars the

3:54

truth is much messier

3:56

whole of doubt and confusion and

3:58

disagreement stretched

3:59

it over a period of eight months

4:02

in that process didn't even start with

4:04

david kaczynski the first

4:06

person to actually make the connection the

4:08

think ted kaczynski might be the you know bomber

4:11

is linda patrick david's wife

4:14

you might remember fund the first episode

4:16

linda was on vacation in paris in august

4:18

nineteen ninety five and she happened to

4:20

read a few stories about the uni bomber and

4:22

his manifesto any international

4:24

herald tribune when david

4:27

joined her a few weeks later linda

4:29

let him in on a fear she couldn't shake

4:31

the manifesto sounded like it could

4:34

have been written by ted

4:36

if it hadn't paid much attention to the case but

4:39

his immediate reaction was what

4:41

my brother the unit bomber

4:44

they could be angry and cruel the

4:46

he never been violent so far as david new

4:49

the whole thing seemed impossibly far fetched

4:52

the when they return to the us at the end of the summer

4:55

david wasn't even thinking about it

4:57

my mother visited for a while my

4:59

cousin visits ah

5:02

the world series was playing on tv my

5:04

favorite team was playing and and

5:06

so is

5:09

my mother's visit was winding down

5:11

and we took her to the or lenders

5:15

dave and i'm really think we should try

5:17

to find that manifesto

5:19

it been more than a month since the manifesto

5:21

is published that you couldn't run out to

5:23

a newsstand to pick up a copy they

5:25

didn't have the internet at home not

5:28

even a dial up a well you're internet then

5:31

we went to the library at union college

5:33

where linda top david

5:35

logged on to a computer and found the manifesto

5:38

that they're reading with linda by aside

5:41

and if he read those opening paragraphs on the

5:43

evils of the industrial technological

5:45

system it seems possible

5:49

really unlikely a possible

5:52

that his brother was the in a bomber there's

5:55

one chance in a thousand david told linda to

5:58

which linda replied

5:59

david

6:01

that's significant

6:03

though he linda started doing their own analysis

6:05

comparing the manifesto with the hundreds of

6:07

letters david had kept from tad never

6:10

found the smoking gun or anything

6:12

that would say at my brother definitely

6:15

wrote this but this remember at some point

6:17

he had said something like cats these

6:19

modern philosophers they are not

6:21

cool headed logician it's which

6:23

is what he thought and objective truth

6:25

seekers should be and

6:29

there was had same phrase cool

6:31

headed logician philosophers

6:34

are now cool headed logician snacks

6:36

thought i'd seen that now i frantically

6:39

searched are all the letters i have i couldn't find

6:41

that phrase now

6:43

there were few of his letters had lost over the

6:45

years so i presume it was from one of the one since

6:47

last i'm pretty sure i

6:50

mean there was the the hardest evidence

6:52

i could find

6:54

that how hard was that evidence really it

6:56

was just one phrase and he couldn't

6:58

even find it in the piles of letters he'd come

7:02

the have to say for me it was like a roller coaster

7:04

and some sense i'd i'd be reading

7:07

some passage in the manifesto

7:10

and thanks i was reading my brother's

7:13

letter , then of wait a second know this

7:15

isn't my brother's letter this is the manifesto

7:19

cash i can't even tell the difference between

7:21

the two soaps in on for can

7:23

and must be him and then the next day

7:25

i'm thinking courtesy

7:27

projection i've been worried about my brother for

7:29

years the end

7:33

ultimately the realization that could

7:35

be ted was increasing steadily

7:37

incrementally

7:39

but i remember it's

7:41

sorry

7:43

in hundred and i thought there might be assisting

7:45

percent chance that he he had written that

7:48

he was responsible for these bombings

7:51

they've had gone from one chance in a thousand the

7:54

one into

8:00

the bill for every phrased

8:02

seemed like it must have been written by ted there

8:04

are other things that seem to prove it couldn't be him

8:06

like to catch the

8:08

one that had been made after a woman saw the you know

8:10

bomber place a bomb outside the computer store

8:13

in salt lake city

8:14

she described him is

8:17

being a much younger than

8:19

ten at least ten years younger than

8:21

ted three

8:23

, taller than i knew ted to

8:25

be with a different

8:27

hair color

8:29

the

8:32

gosh

8:36

any choice we made

8:39

could lead to send that his desk if

8:42

we don't do anything and

8:44

somebody else gets killed and my brothers responsible

8:47

for a while we have go through the rest

8:49

of our lives with blood on her hands

8:51

but the other foreign of the dilemma was the

8:53

realization that if we turns out and

8:57

the ends up being executed what

8:59

would it be like for me to go through the rest of

9:01

my life with my brothers plan

9:04

my hands

9:05

the

9:07

you think of all was considerations

9:10

have terrorists and were times

9:12

i actually thought casual what kind

9:14

of them devil when design

9:17

a dilemma of like this

9:24

in late november david decides

9:26

instead of contacting the f b i he's

9:28

gonna write to ted he's ,

9:30

exactly what he's hoping for but

9:32

he asks if he can come visit and helped

9:34

had resupply before the heavy winter snows

9:37

snows ted says serve great

9:40

come on come david can wipe

9:42

the sweat off the brow that's

9:44

not his ted says i

9:46

get just choked with frustration at my

9:48

inability to get our stinking family

9:50

off my back once and for all ted

9:52

rights and stinking family and

9:54

fat ugly includes you includes

9:57

don't ever want to see or hear from you or

9:59

any other men the of our family again the

10:02

david moves on to plan b linda

10:05

, a friend named susan swanson to

10:07

the private investigator and susan

10:09

connects david and linda with linda retired f b

10:11

i profiler someone who can do who

10:13

forensic comparison between ted's letters

10:15

and the unit bombers manifesto

10:18

he came back and said the

10:22

he got a couple of bucks other experts involved

10:24

they believed that there was a sixty percent

10:26

chance at the

10:28

author of my brothers ladders was also

10:30

the author of the manifesto well

10:33

that's a lot more than one

10:35

hundred thousand it's even more than sixty such

10:37

a hint at that point where

10:39

realized where realized to make a decision we

10:41

needed to do something to stop the

10:44

violence

10:48

we got there was a one eight hundred a

10:50

hotline or that that a lot of people called

10:53

and including a lot of people as i understand

10:55

and who were saying , family

10:57

members my pd in a bomber but you and

10:59

linda went about it a different way

11:01

why different way you just call the in a bomb

11:03

hotline

11:05

yeah i felt very very

11:07

strong ways that we

11:10

, to be involved the extent that

11:12

we could be involved in other

11:14

words in wanted them to know more

11:17

about my brother about his

11:19

vulnerabilities i

11:22

wanted to make sure that if there were to

11:24

be arrests and arrests it would be

11:26

a safer rest

11:28

david was right to be concerned they

11:31

didn't want had to end up like the branch davidians

11:33

at waco the young mother killed

11:36

it ruby ridge he didn't know

11:38

what ted my do if he was cornered what

11:40

the f b i might do in return

11:50

the youtube i'm task force

11:52

headquarters in san francisco there

11:54

is a document that agents were constantly updating

11:57

labeled

11:58

known you know bomb fact fictions

12:00

and theories

12:02

the head of the task force terry turkey had commissioned

12:05

facts were mostly the physical evidence

12:08

in the case the typewriter samples

12:10

from the letters the hand carved parts

12:12

inside the devices stuff like that sections

12:16

where the key suspects it had already been washed

12:18

out and once promising leads that

12:20

had fizzled the series

12:22

where the most tantalizing item they

12:24

were the connections deductions even

12:27

pure gut feelings that no one had ever been

12:29

able to disprove harry

12:31

told the agents on the task force not to lose

12:33

sight of the theories

12:35

some point in time

12:37

the couple of these theories are gonna rahm

12:39

right into these facts and we're going to

12:41

know we're on the right track and then all

12:44

of the other things we can bring into this will start

12:46

bring it into

12:48

in january of nice ninety six that moment

12:50

happens the task force has a

12:52

new suspect this guy just

12:54

a bunch of the right boxes the

12:56

a strong ties to the bay area he

12:58

has a history of building small bombs and

13:01

he happens to live really close to the tiny

13:03

post office near the airport where

13:05

do you know bomber mailed the device that killed thomas

13:07

moser

13:08

we decide we need to know what he's thrown

13:10

out this trash

13:12

though

13:14

the first trash cover the first time they

13:16

bring a bag and crap out of disguised

13:18

round

13:19

they find hickory

13:21

would

13:22

in the trash hickory would fragments of

13:25

keep in mind that one of the things we

13:27

had on our our facts was

13:29

that the uni bomber hand carved

13:32

his bomb switches from

13:34

hickory

13:35

lloyd apparently has it's own biological fingerprints

13:38

so they could see if these particular fragments

13:40

were made from the same kind of hickory they found

13:42

in some of the bombs

13:44

though the the hickories the fragments

13:47

are taken and sent to the lab

13:49

the lab causes and says

13:51

this hickory is almost identical

13:54

totally to the hickory switches and

13:57

the would that the uni bomber is using carbon

13:59

his

13:59

greece which is for his mom's

14:02

well now that that raises all the

14:04

lawn belts you need to get a search

14:06

warrant you need to do this need to do that we

14:08

we we need to stop this person before they bomb again

14:11

but during all of this what's

14:13

your next up with this guy what what is he doing

14:15

today what is he doing this men at the are you watching

14:18

them

14:19

after all these years they think we've

14:21

got we just have to put the final

14:23

pieces together

14:25

then it all unravels

14:27

when they dig into this guy's past the timeline

14:30

just doesn't match the wasn't

14:32

where the bombs were sent from the right time

14:34

that's where things stood

14:37

another dead lead in early february

14:39

when that young f b i agent in d c

14:41

molly flynn calls up joe

14:43

moss on the in a bomb task force

14:46

to tell him about the twenty three page essay says

14:48

just read the guy

14:50

universe scar tissue at this point another

14:53

, the most promising they've had in

14:55

years as just washed out is

14:57

not going to get excited about get excited from a junior

14:59

agent in d c the

15:01

years or out at the end of the day he picks

15:04

up the essay molly faxed over and starts reading

15:07

and , dawns on him right then then

15:09

is this because the task

15:11

forces behavioral analyst cathy but it

15:14

and asked her if she wants to get a bite to eat when

15:16

they sit down he casually hands or the essay

15:19

careful not to influencer and anyway that

15:22

he reads it says

15:24

where did you get this the ,

15:26

day they share with terry turkey their boss to

15:28

react the same way way

15:30

is not your traditional fingerprints

15:32

in that is not a strand of dna

15:35

in that is not an eyewitness

15:38

but i think it's just

15:40

as good ah when when we saw

15:42

the twenty three page essay and

15:45

, read it and that didn't take that long read

15:47

you can read a lot of times times then

15:49

compared it with the are you know bombers

15:51

manifesto there was

15:53

simply no doubt it could not

15:55

you could not put that down if you

15:57

believe that no two people right alike

15:59

like the manifesto the twenty

16:02

three page essay asserts that science and technology

16:04

are destroying human society depriving

16:07

individuals of their freedom and liberty both

16:10

, are fixated on the same range of topics

16:13

genetic engineering artificial intelligence

16:16

the electrical stimulation of the brain

16:18

the sexual repression of the victorian

16:20

era propaganda mass

16:22

media surveillance and

16:24

their and similar distinctive phrases scattered

16:26

throughout both of them the

16:29

task force wants to know more said three

16:31

agents joe cathy and

16:33

her colleague mad max know get

16:35

on a conference call with molly flynn

16:38

max was grilling me

16:40

the one girl and me about the suspected

16:42

use it was almost like he was a cross examine man

16:45

interrogated me about while he doesn't match the as

16:47

he doesn't match that i didn't believe

16:49

it's why i said you know just

16:52

because somebody expresses

16:54

his ideas and just because there's some spellings

16:57

or that doesn't mean it's a person my

16:59

and i said listen i i understand

17:01

that we don't have don't have for

17:04

him that put some and all of the places

17:06

that the crimes occurred what we

17:08

have is a biography that suggests

17:10

he had a significant connection to all

17:13

of the places where the crimes occurred

17:15

the laboratory said it wasn't tight

17:18

on the antique smith corona

17:21

like a style guide to boy play for spacing

17:24

machine it was saved on a different nt typewriter

17:26

so he was being very kind of skeptical

17:28

adnan cathy was saying how the

17:31

hair was sent an up and the best sunset

17:34

max remained skeptical the

17:36

even when tony boselli the lawyer revealed

17:38

his clients brother theodore

17:40

john kaczynski the former

17:43

math professor at living off the grid and the montana

17:45

woods the effect number two

17:47

thousand four hundred sixteen in

17:49

the you know bomb case

17:51

and once you know is says or twenty four sixteen

17:53

theater kaczynski we still so so

17:56

oh yeah pay the and listen

17:58

it'll we have wall the saw

18:00

the experts don't this that he's

18:02

got a the was an eight

18:05

five hundred mile radius of was

18:07

san francisco and we thoroughly

18:09

believe that and here's a guy that

18:13

there's seven earn fifty miles from san francisco

18:16

who lives in a cabin where

18:18

no electricity no running

18:20

water

18:21

no means of transportation other year

18:23

old beat up bicycle how

18:26

can he get from that location

18:29

to the bay area or would be

18:31

exceedingly difficult

18:34

plenty of other agents agreed with max they

18:36

couldn't believe terry was putting any stock in this

18:38

theory oh yeah people were very man

18:40

in fact our one age and said i'm gonna call

18:42

at the i headquarters i got some friends there and

18:45

i'm going to tell them you're incompetent i

18:48

said

18:48

now have been another by now

18:56

carried on certain they'd found the you know bomber

18:58

but he understood how flimsy the lead could look

19:01

to seasoned criminal guys like

19:03

one big fiction up on the board

19:05

though for two years you're preaching to us

19:07

that we gotta we i work with socks

19:10

and the lab says that's right

19:12

she needed a sound read sound read this heavy

19:14

duty work

19:15

there is no boundary up there he doesn't have a bathroom

19:18

using a hardly i have sufficient

19:21

heating system is gonna have belly stove

19:23

in a cabin how

19:25

we now turn around and say

19:26

to to the courts to judge

19:28

is to the d o j to america

19:31

we're going to going charge and charge at

19:34

this guy cause he's thinking about how can you do that

19:37

this was the key the you know

19:39

bomb taskforce needed to convince a judge

19:41

to issue a warrant before they swept in

19:43

on ted kaczynski cabin they

19:46

needed more facts and , get

19:48

them they needed to talk to his

19:50

brother

19:58

the biggest news story in the united states the early

20:00

ninety ninety six with the weather

20:03

for to solid months the eastern seaboard was

20:05

barraged by storm after storm the

20:08

blizzard of ninety six ninety early january

20:10

and smaller follow up storms six

20:12

inches on january fifteenth another eight

20:15

another first weekend in february the

20:17

new york times ran two hundred seventy one stories

20:19

in the first two months of nineteen ninety six that

20:22

included the word snowstorm iran's

20:24

three that included the word you know

20:27

bomber when caddy pocket

20:29

lands in washington in mid february the

20:31

twelfth major snowstorm at that winter

20:33

is hitting the region the there

20:35

to meet with david and linda tony

20:38

to say we had communicated to the f b i

20:40

the david was prepared to cooperate with the investigation

20:44

but he didn't want to be used as a pawn and some

20:46

sting operation the is

20:48

other request to david

20:50

wants his identity to be kept secret until

20:53

he says otherwise because it had

20:55

is ultimately arrested david

20:57

wants to be the one to tell him

20:59

i turned un

21:00

wanda kaczynski david and ted's

21:03

mother is off limits to interview

21:05

until david says so and

21:07

under no circumstances can the f b i

21:09

contacted due to his quote

21:11

fragile psychological state

21:14

maybe most importantly david

21:16

wanted some assurance that the government wouldn't pursue

21:19

the death penalty against his brother all

21:22

of that is i'm cathy buckets mind as she prepares

21:24

to me david for the first time in her dc

21:26

hotel you have to make

21:28

him comfortable she thinks the can

21:30

feel like this is an interrogation

21:33

so i called the desk

21:36

the recipes

21:37

the get the hotel and said i

21:39

need to move to a sweet are you know terry wasn't

21:41

surprised that i was willing to a sweet

21:44

i usually try to squeeze as much money out of that budget

21:46

as possible so we , all

21:48

things to be of the site

21:50

to a sweet and had

21:52

some i'm pastries and

21:55

coffee and tea and everything and

21:57

just made it as warm as i could

22:05

once

22:06

talking about his brother first

22:09

, all he told me that he hadn't personally seen

22:12

his brother for ten years years

22:14

i said bulls and it was remarkable that

22:17

you were able

22:20

to recognize his writing

22:23

to style and some of the words he used

22:25

and , said well it's not really that remarkable

22:28

because my

22:28

there has been very very important

22:30

in my life i've always admired

22:31

he always looked up to him

22:34

the meeting goes long ten hours

22:36

cathy says david roth more

22:39

letters with him with cathy in cathy few

22:41

other agents handle with white surgical gloves

22:43

laying them out on the hotel room bad

22:46

one of the other agents in the room is molly flynn

22:49

he called attention to ted's essay which

22:52

is what led them here not

22:54

convinced his their guy you don't

22:56

have any hard evidence kathy

22:58

talks to david molly hangs back

23:01

looking over the letters spread out on the bed

23:04

one of the letters from ted to david i

23:07

see the

23:09

reference to l sprague the camps

23:11

the ancient engineers which

23:14

was one of the i think maybe

23:16

for works cited by name

23:19

in the youtube manifesto and

23:22

my eyes just cut really big and i

23:24

looked at that age and next to me was

23:26

one of the investigators and i i

23:28

just pointed it said him and and i

23:32

, remember what he wrote some kind

23:34

of sarcastic comment to me but

23:37

but when i started thinking oh

23:40

wow this might really be the guy ah

23:46

after that meeting the fb i once more

23:48

more letters more essays more evidence

23:51

anything that will help them build a case

23:54

kathy meet up with david the following week in

23:56

el paso and together they drive

23:58

out to his cabin in the texas bad

23:59

that

24:01

the is an underground bunker there were dozens

24:03

of old letters from tatar stored the

24:06

week after that they're in chicago

24:08

for david is helping his mother wander clean

24:10

out their old family house wonders

24:12

about to moved upstate new york to be

24:14

near david and linda while

24:17

copies in chicago the task force higher

24:19

ups ask her to brief the local office about

24:21

this new suspect kaczynski

24:24

she me to the big boss their the essay

24:26

see special agent in charge

24:29

and one of his assistants the a sack

24:32

and when i told them that

24:34

we , that the you know bomber was living

24:37

in a cabin with no running water and no power

24:39

power montana and had been for twenty five years

24:43

they went unglued i was in the as was

24:45

sees office and they ashley shouted i'm

24:47

ever the a sec was standing over me wagging his

24:49

finger my face

24:50

so you're outta your fucking my you

24:53

know this know this this is a ridiculous i'm

24:55

going to talk to your boss

24:57

they think the in a bomber was

24:59

they heard they they thought it was a guy

25:01

who had been one of the dungeons and dragons

25:03

participants

25:05

the dmd guys jeff ward

25:08

this is almost two decades after he first

25:10

became a suspect

25:11

when quick question just as i'm kind of visualizing

25:13

this period the f b i around

25:16

how many agents were there screaming at you

25:18

and how many of them were women

25:20

maybe one or two and about twenty

25:23

yeah i was just amazing room is screaming men

25:26

yeah but that's not the first time i mean i was

25:28

four years in the in the airforce first

25:32

you know screaming guys

25:34

you know i mean it's it's not that i would back

25:36

down but it's not you can't really compete with that

25:38

you just went down

25:41

on your back at them that would be

25:44

a waste

25:44

ruff

25:51

agents while i was reporting the story

25:53

they all attributed it to david kaczynski his lawyer

25:56

tony boselli

25:57

women solve the and of on case without

26:01

david's wife linda the f b i might

26:03

still be searching for the in a bomber without

26:05

, private eye friend susan david

26:08

might never have had the confidence to approach the government

26:10

with his fears fears

26:12

molly in the f b i dc field

26:14

office who knows when the task

26:16

force would have read that twenty three page three

26:19

and without the task forces behavioral task

26:21

cathy they might never have gotten

26:24

they're reluctant key informants david kaczynski

26:27

to work so closely with them when

26:29

i asked cathy about this she said it

26:31

wasn't said coincidence

26:33

being a woman in the f b i gave you a different

26:35

way of looking at things

26:37

gotta keep in mind that that i

26:39

came in very early i came and seventy eight

26:41

they really didn't think they needed women in the bureau ah

26:44

lot of people still didn't this

26:47

, the experience of a woman in a man's

26:49

world we see because you know i

26:52

always told always soul who was

26:54

my partner for partner lot of years and i said you know

26:57

the problem

26:58

with us that you don't know what it's like to be a minority

27:01

you really don't you've always been

27:03

you know at the top of the heap because

27:06

ah if you don't grow up

27:08

thinking or are treated when you're growing

27:11

up thinking that you

27:13

are

27:15

the olden

27:16

i'm you have a lot more empathy

27:18

for everybody else what you know around

27:21

you and a everybody

27:23

else in in in

27:25

not the top position

27:27

if you're at the pinnacle it's very hard

27:29

to relate to people who are not

27:32

that his ability to empathize with david

27:34

was vital to the unit been case the

27:36

meat and start wondering if she's overemphasizing

27:39

following david around the country that in

27:42

dribs and drabs of information from this

27:44

guy who might be the you know bombers brother

27:46

when the bomb could go off at any moment

27:49

the doubts get back to someone cathy does not

27:52

want to hear from

27:53

i don't know if i told you about the

27:56

gym freeman almost had my scalp

27:59

you did

27:59

but it's on my list a question so let's

28:02

go there again

28:07

jim freeman randy f b i san francisco

28:09

office he was one of the first agents

28:11

i met reporting this story jim

28:13

comes across as in control it's

28:16

not hard to imagine him being tough on his agents

28:19

kerry turkey may have run the task force

28:21

metairie worked for gym

28:23

the when cathy heard from gym it

28:25

wasn't like getting scolded by your teacher it

28:28

was like getting called over the intercom to the principal's

28:31

office

28:32

though

28:33

freeman get on the phone thing says listen i'm

28:37

how's it going over there and i said you

28:39

know yeah we're we're getting some good stuff and then

28:41

it's this damon stat and he's continuing

28:43

to help us and this is

28:46

here's what i want you to do

28:47

we'll get david to write his brother

28:49

letter

28:50

and say , in there

28:52

that that gets a response

28:54

you know maybe something about their

28:57

mother their don't know if he know if

28:59

whatever it is whatever the letter is you know

29:01

had him write a letter and i said boss we can't

29:03

do that

29:04

remember when of tony disabling conditions

29:07

was that his client david wouldn't be used

29:09

in a sting operation

29:10

boss david is not gonna do anything

29:13

operationally for the f b i

29:18

the were you talking about they said i'm

29:20

promise we wouldn't use them operationally this

29:25

i told you to do that and that's what

29:27

you're gonna do you're going to get him to write this

29:29

letter we've gotta get some momentum

29:31

unless you know you're talking

29:34

to talking me not getting anywhere getting said no we

29:36

are getting some a global i want a letter written

29:39

we need to get some sort of outreach

29:42

the suspect there and

29:44

i said

29:47

we promise we wouldn't we agreed that we wouldn't

29:49

and he just screamed at screamed

29:53

the him freeman says he doesn't remember pressing for

29:55

a letter that he acknowledges pushing

29:57

cathy to get things moving with david the

30:00

clock is ticking loudly and gym said agents

30:03

are already on the ground in montana stocking

30:05

ted kaczynski from kaczynski distance the

30:07

know the suspect is still a threat although

30:10

they didn't noted the time they did

30:12

in fact just built another bomb the

30:15

gym definitely does know is the whole

30:17

unit bomb operation is a massively expensive

30:20

bureaucratic nightmare it needs to

30:22

be wrapped up soon the

30:24

gym senses number to carry turkey

30:26

the head of the task force to babysit

30:29

cathy at her next stop on the david kaczynski

30:31

tour

30:32

when we ended up in schenectady

30:34

a a week or two later

30:37

freeman hadn't hard to talk to me sense and he

30:39

said i'm not sending her up there by yourself

30:41

you are going to go along with that team you're gonna

30:44

be there in charge i don't want her

30:46

in charge on issues should have

30:47

and order

30:50

schenectady with the most important stop

30:52

yeah that's where cathy was finally

30:55

going to be able to talk to wander kaczynski them

30:57

she'd been wanting to speak with for weeks the

31:00

cathy and terry in a couple other agents

31:02

land in albany and had to wanders

31:04

new home when he arrives

31:07

david's inside with his mother

31:09

preparing her for what's about to happen

31:12

i was much too anxious

31:15

much to overwrought to sit down

31:17

and i was kind of peace in the floor back and

31:19

forth

31:21

david asks wanda

31:23

have you heard about the you know bomber in his manifesto

31:26

yes she says

31:29

you know how ten feels about technology right

31:32

i finally get to the point where

31:34

i said mom hum and so

31:37

concerned about the possibility that ted

31:39

may be involved in these crimes at

31:42

that point she just said

31:44

very quickly oh don't tell anyone the

31:48

last thing i wanted here really and

31:52

i said my my i already have told someone

31:55

have gone to the f b i as shared

31:57

with them my suspicions and mayor at

32:00

my investigating the possibility

32:03

that ted might be involved be involved

32:05

series of bombings he

32:08

looked at me for a few moments and then

32:12

you know got up out of her chair she walked

32:14

up to me and

32:17

reached , arms around my neck neck

32:20

a kiss and my cheeks and

32:22

then she said david said can't imagine

32:24

what you've been struggling with

32:30

it was at that point then she

32:32

said okay was what he wanted me

32:34

to do and i said well the sp i

32:36

would like to talk with you so

32:40

she said well when the the one speak with me and

32:43

i shouldn't mom they're actually waiting outside

32:52

kathy in a couple other agents or with terry

32:54

waiting for david to given the go ahead to come

32:56

in and when the moment arrives

32:59

carry decides he doesn't need to lean i'm cathy

33:02

like jim freeman thought he might the

33:04

just like you take the lead

33:06

harry said i tell you what

33:08

i'm going to do i'm you

33:10

guys know the drill you know that what we're going

33:12

to try to do is get as much information

33:14

from her if she will speak to us as possible

33:17

and if she will let us search

33:20

that chest and whatever other position she

33:22

has of ted's said the i understand that

33:24

so he said so i'm not uncommon the

33:26

be too many people so i'll stay out

33:28

here so he stayed out in that freezing

33:30

car i remember at one point looking out

33:33

the window and seeing the car rocking and he was

33:35

he had really loud rock music on and he

33:37

was rock and out

33:38

try to keep his of who are turning

33:41

on

33:41

engine and letting it run lemming the heater run

33:43

because it was

33:44

the bitter cold

33:50

though when we walked in

33:52

ah she was very

33:56

hospitable

33:57

made us t

33:59

ah

34:01

said you know my

34:03

son's head is very

34:06

sensitive and many

34:09

, bother him but

34:11

he would never i would never believe

34:14

that he could do anything like this but if this

34:16

know that you're the job to do

34:17

and

34:18

i'm not going to stand in your way

34:22

anything that you want to talk to me about

34:25

okay i will

34:26

kathy asks wanda about ted's childhood

34:29

about the anger he's long directed at her the

34:32

temper tantrums over care packages

34:35

the cruel name's he's called her

34:37

he had written her savage letters

34:40

and she have debbie one of them he kept

34:42

every single one of them the same

34:44

envelopes the same way her son and

34:47

i i city the think we

34:49

can look at these things and she said yes

34:52

than does she gave us free reign

34:56

wander in david were still holding

34:58

out hope

34:59

that's something in the chest were wanda kept

35:01

those letters with absolve ted

35:04

the dates wouldn't match up there be some

35:06

explanation for the similarities in the writing

35:09

but for cathy it was a bonanza

35:13

the you know bomb task force was busy putting together

35:15

an affidavit that hinged on comparisons

35:17

of the you know bombers writings to ted kaczynski

35:21

kathy believe she sounded off to make the case

35:24

we come back with the treasure trove the walked out

35:26

with with boxes full of things

35:28

and terry was

35:31

hugely proud frozen as

35:33

was he was hugely proud that

35:36

it worked and worked and cooperated

35:38

and we got lot of documents since

35:40

the david was just glad to see the

35:42

the back of a smile on the left

35:46

a major operation like this one you

35:48

need to get signed off from the highest levels of government

35:51

despite cathy certainty word

35:53

comes down that the documents they've found are not

35:55

enough the bureau can't risk

35:57

another screw up

35:59

anyway

35:59

for something else the new witness

36:02

some new piece of physical evidence another

36:05

bomb to go off and

36:07

while they wait where it comes back

36:09

that someone familiar with the investigation

36:12

has leaked it to a reporter the

36:14

reporter know the f b i is surrounding a suspect

36:16

in montana

36:18

you know the suspect's name it's

36:20

, a common name sounds sounds

36:23

node that node it nailed

36:26

enough that i could go on the air that's

36:28

next time on project you know been

36:42

project unit bomb is an apple original podcast

36:44

produced by pineapple street studios

36:47

this , was produced by melissa slaughter

36:50

and me america benson benson

36:52

senior producer is jonathan men have men our

36:55

producer is our adler editing

36:58

by joel level and matty sprung kaiser

37:00

or fact checker is sarah every the

37:03

episode was makes by davey sumner jason

37:06

richards elliot adler and jonathan

37:08

when he var studio recording

37:10

by brian stand for that the texas monthly

37:12

studio or ,

37:14

is by gm francis's francis's

37:17

by mark orton and john hancock additional

37:20

music by eric philips and jeff baxter

37:22

legal services for pineapple street

37:25

by bianca grimshaw at granderson day russia

37:28

jenna weiss berman and max lewinsky or

37:30

the executive producers had pineapple street

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they