0:02

All right , everyone , welcome back to the Psych

0:04

and Theo podcast . Sam and Tim here , ready

0:07

to start another episode

0:09

, and we are excited

0:11

. Well , first of all , just to talk about you guys

0:14

for a little bit Hearing feedback

0:16

, new topics , some comments

0:18

, and we just thank you for adding

0:20

to the conversation , because this is where Tim and I get

0:22

some ideas about what to talk about next

0:24

, and

0:29

the topic that we're discussing today didn't stem necessarily from the comments , but

0:31

more so kind of what we've seen in the last couple of years this aspect

0:34

of how important church is to

0:36

one's personal growth . Tim

0:38

, what's our topic today and how

0:40

are we tackling this ?

0:41

Yeah . So the topic today is is

0:44

it a sin to skip church ? Or

0:47

maybe a better way to say it is like should

0:49

we continue to go to church ?

0:51

Yeah .

0:52

Now I'm going to kind of

0:54

ask an obvious question here . Why

0:57

are we even asking this kind of question ? Because

0:59

if you're a Christian and you've been a Christian

1:01

for any length of time , you'll

1:04

know that Christians go to church

1:06

. That's what we do .

1:08

Yeah , that's what we do , Especially in the South .

1:10

Yeah , yeah , you got to be a churchgoer

1:12

. Yeah , like church , that

1:14

Christian church is part

1:16

of Christianity . So why are we asking

1:19

a question like this , that

1:21

it would come up ? Well , the reason is that in

1:24

recent years there's been a serious

1:26

decline in church attendance

1:28

, not just after COVID

1:31

, even though COVID showed a precipitous

1:33

decline and we'll get into some of those stats , but in

1:36

over many , many decades there's been a rapid

1:38

decline in church attendance

1:41

and we'll get into some reasons

1:43

why that is . But I think there's this general

1:46

feeling

1:48

maybe , or just some misnomers

1:50

that float around in the Christian world

1:52

, evangelical world , that

1:55

deprioritizes

1:58

, I think , church attendance in some way . They

2:01

might think of things like I

2:03

don't need to go to church because of X , Y

2:05

, Z . I have something else . I

2:07

have another way to get what I get , usually

2:10

from church .

2:12

I wonder if it's a Western thing more than anything

2:15

else , because we were talking earlier about just different churches

2:17

and around the world , how important it

2:19

is to them , do you see ?

2:23

it that way . Yeah , we can get into that . I think when

2:25

we get into biblically what church is , I think

2:27

we can kind of start comparing some cultures back

2:29

and forth and what that means . But

2:32

yeah , so why are we asking that

2:34

question ? I'm going to throw it back to you because this

2:36

episode was your idea . So

2:38

I want you to kind of give us some

2:40

reasons why we should be talking about this

2:43

.

2:43

Yeah , I think it's a good topic

2:45

in general , because when we talk about mental health

2:47

, one of the primary reasons

2:50

why people struggle with mental health is the

2:52

lack of connection . They don't feel connected

2:54

, they don't feel like they're accepted

2:56

, they don't feel part of a group . And

2:58

with church you would think that , hey , we should

3:00

feel part of a group , especially

3:03

when it comes to our relationship with God

3:05

. But one of the things that also

3:07

started this question was well , what happens

3:09

then if you've been hurt

3:12

by the church and that

3:14

was , you know , five , seven

3:16

years ago ? You start to hear more and more of these

3:18

stories of people who said I left

3:20

the church because I was hurt by the church , some

3:23

very valid reasons why there was , you know

3:25

, sexual abuse , verbal abuse

3:27

, controlling types of things

3:29

that were happening in churches . So people left their

3:31

church , but they never went back , and

3:34

so then the justification was

3:36

because I was hurt by the church . Then

3:38

why would I go back to a place that

3:41

is going to hurt me ? And when you think about

3:43

counseling , the big word is boundaries

3:45

. I need to set my boundaries so I don't put

3:48

myself in a position where I could be hurt again . But

3:50

I think what happens is that we

3:53

misconstrued or misunderstood

3:55

that the church is how God also speaks to

3:58

us , is how he ministers to us and how we can also minister

4:00

to others . I mean we have all the one another's in the New Testament right

4:02

that us and how we can also minister to

4:04

others . I mean we have all the one another's in the

4:06

New Testament right that talks about how

4:08

we can minister to each other . So

4:11

that's kind of where it stemmed from both of those parts the ones

4:13

of being hurt from the church and

4:16

the other part of just people now

4:18

seeing it as we walk after COVID

4:20

and so on Like , is there really a need to

4:23

go to church ?

4:24

Okay , so there's at least two reasons there . Then it's

4:26

one . One is a some sort of dare

4:29

I say the word trauma . I know that word's kind of

4:31

thrown around a lot . But

4:34

, for the sake of the conversation , you'll

4:36

put it in that category . Everyone's

4:39

got trauma these days , you know . You

4:41

know , in fact , you know I was driving on the way over here

4:43

and somebody , somebody

4:47

cut me off and it's very traumatic for me . Yeah

4:49

, yeah , yeah , and I I having

4:52

a truck , I you know I I could

4:54

traumatize them now too not that I

4:56

do not that I do , but uh

4:58

, someone out there is calling the cops on me right now

5:00

. Basically , I didn't know , I'm

5:02

just kidding . So yeah

5:05

, so there's this hurt factor , injury

5:07

, let's say emotional injury

5:10

, that could also be spiritual

5:12

injury . I don't want to minimize , we

5:14

don't want to minimize that yeah

5:16

, I don't want to minimize people getting hurt from the church because there

5:18

are people who maybe are victims of abuse or

5:21

not . Just sexual abuse could be verbal

5:23

abuse or emotional , spiritual manipulation , gaslighting

5:27

, anything like that . That goes on . We talked about in our episode

5:29

of false teachers and how that's a . That's a a

5:32

characteristic of false teachers that take

5:34

that , come in and take over a church so

5:37

that can happen . But then there's just the

5:39

general . There is a more general sense

5:41

of people getting their feelings hurt

5:43

in some way and I've seen a lot of that growing

5:45

up in the Midwest , in

5:47

Ohio , western Ohio

5:49

. There's a lot

5:51

of churches over there , small country churches

5:53

and the independent Baptist

5:56

circles . There's a lot of church splits

5:58

that go on and the church splits usually

6:00

happen because someone

6:02

gets upset about something , and it's

6:04

usually not not rising to the level of doctrine

6:07

. It's usually something like um

6:09

, they don't like a decision that

6:11

was made , like purchasing a church bus

6:13

or something as petty as the color of the

6:15

carpet , you know , or or

6:18

like someone . Someone really

6:20

was passionate about a certain , a certain

6:22

, and the church leaders or

6:25

the pastor made a decision to delegate

6:28

that ministry to someone else and the first

6:30

person got really hurt by that they got

6:32

their feelings hurt and then they left

6:35

. They got mad and left , and so there's

6:37

things like that that go on all the time . So

6:40

the spectrum of injury

6:42

can be very wide . It can be

6:44

serious forms of abuse all the way

6:46

down to I'm offended

6:48

about something , and

6:50

so maybe I don't know , it's

6:53

not in our notes , but maybe we can talk about a threshold

6:55

of when it's time to maybe leave a church

6:58

and find something else . But yeah

7:00

, so there's that one . We'll call it the injury . And

7:02

then the other one is more social

7:05

or maybe technological . In some way

7:07

there's opportunities to

7:10

quote unquote

7:12

attend church elsewhere

7:14

or by another means online

7:16

church social media or

7:19

something like that or they might

7:21

find their social connections

7:24

somewhere else . I don't know . Have you seen

7:26

anything like that ?

7:28

Yeah , I think it's more the convenience

7:30

factor . I think for me , when people talk about

7:32

going to church , there's other things that they'd

7:34

rather do . I think that's

7:37

probably more of what I've seen . So , whether

7:39

it be family and I've had

7:41

to think about this a lot with the boys too , it's like any sports

7:43

that they'll get involved in that it can't be

7:45

a Sunday morning sport

7:48

, maybe Sunday afternoon , but I'm not sure yet

7:50

. So thinking about that , it's like

7:52

okay , no , why ? Because the kids see

7:54

kind of how you model your life

7:56

, and I think it's one of the things I'm really grateful to my

7:59

dad about is that he was consistent

8:01

in that , in being able to attend

8:03

church and kind of creating

8:06

us the importance of going to church . But

8:08

obviously as you get older you realize it's not just

8:10

the going to church , it's how are you serving

8:12

, how are you investing , how are you spending time with other people

8:14

both in and outside of the church . So

8:17

that stuck with me and maybe there's a little

8:20

bit of bias there , maybe in my arguments

8:22

or in our arguments of

8:24

why it's important . But from what I've

8:26

seen , you know you're talking a little bit about hurt

8:28

is that sometimes it is those . The

8:31

majority is those minor issues like

8:33

, well , I didn't like the music that they said , or

8:35

I got hurt , someone said something about me , or they're so

8:38

cliquish and this is something you find in any

8:40

group . Right Job anywhere , you'll find

8:42

this anywhere .

8:43

So , um , so yeah , I

8:45

think that's why this question has come up and hopefully

8:47

we can address it in a biblical

8:50

and ethical manner yeah , I'm glad you mentioned

8:52

the sports issue , because I think that that actually

8:54

is one that doesn't get mentioned a lot , but it's , it's

8:56

a , it's a big factor , at least for american

8:58

evangelicals , because , um

9:01

, so there's injury we talked about that

9:03

and then there's that , that sort of convenience factor

9:05

of I can , I can find spiritual

9:08

nourishment online , you

9:10

know elsewhere but then also

9:12

the opportunities for

9:14

other things to take place on

9:17

sunday and and for a lot of parents

9:19

with kids who are growing up and

9:22

they have them in sports programs , summer camps

9:24

and things like that , it can

9:26

, the temptation can be to

9:28

keep your kids in these summer

9:30

leagues and then , before

9:33

you know it , you're traveling on the weekends to go

9:35

play in these tournaments all over the you know the

9:37

country , um , and

9:39

there's a . There's a . There's a well-intentioned

9:41

nature behind that . As a parent , yeah uh

9:43

, because you want your kid to kind of be , if you want

9:45

to be competitive in sports and succeed . I mean , it's

9:48

an opportunity to get a scholarship maybe one day

9:50

at a college . So I I get the reasoning

9:52

behind it , but what it leads

9:54

to , it could lead to , is this habit

9:56

of deprioritizing

9:59

church , especially in the summers

10:01

, uh , to to do other things

10:03

. And I think that's really the nature of the question

10:05

that we're getting at in this episode is not

10:07

, you know , should

10:10

we never or should we ever go to church

10:12

? But why is it important

10:14

to be consistent in

10:16

church ? Our

10:18

question isn't even like , is

10:20

it wrong to not

10:23

go to , like miss a week ? You

10:25

know things come up all the time . You

10:27

know life happens . You got to travel . You

10:30

know maybe you work a

10:33

job where you have to work on Sunday mornings

10:35

or something like that , you know . So things come up

10:37

. So

10:39

we're not trying to be legalists here and say

10:42

you have to be on every Sunday , sunday morning

10:44

in the congregation , yada , yada

10:46

. I actually grew up in a

10:48

church . I won't name the church

10:50

I think I've referenced this before , but I

10:53

grew up in a church where they

10:55

had a policy of church discipline . Now , this

10:57

is not the church I consider home now . It's

10:59

when I was really little . This

11:01

church considered they had a policy

11:04

of church discipline and of

11:06

course you could do all the immoral things to earn

11:08

church discipline . Earn

11:11

. But

11:19

if you didn't attend church for 90 days , then they would bring you up for church discipline

11:21

and purge you from the roles of the church .

11:22

Yeah , oh yeah .

11:23

So they were serious about it . Yeah , you had to keep

11:25

up those member church . Yeah , yeah , yeah .

11:26

Yeah , so they were , they were serious about it .

11:28

You had to keep up those member dues , yeah , so so yeah , there there's

11:30

several reasons how you know how

11:32

we've kind of gotten here , or at least

11:34

, like you know why we're asking the question . Can

11:45

I give you some stats ? Yeah , Okay , so , um , if you've been alive for more

11:47

than five years , then you'll know what COVID is and you'll be

11:49

familiar with that . So

11:52

COVID had an enormous impact , an outsized

11:54

impact , on church attendance

11:56

. For decades and decades

11:58

church attendance has been

12:00

declining , but in the last

12:03

, especially in the last 10 to 20

12:05

years , it's been really , really declining

12:07

and then when COVID hit

12:09

, it really like was a gut

12:11

punch to a lot of churches . Now it's come

12:13

back some , but

12:16

churches still haven't recovered fully

12:18

. So let me give

12:20

you some stats here . So there's a

12:22

lot of surveys here , a lot of data I've pulled

12:24

from different surveys . So not

12:27

to bore our audience with like this survey

12:29

and this survey , I'll just kind of throw out some stats here for

12:31

you , okay . So before

12:34

COVID-19 , before the pandemic

12:36

started , you know , in

12:39

the four-year period leading up to the pandemic it's

12:41

2016 to 2019 , there

12:44

was an average of 34% of

12:46

US adults said that they attended

12:48

church , because that's about one in three . So that's

12:50

not great , okay , but

12:52

one in three said they attended . Excuse

12:55

me , let me walk that back . That was church , synagogue

12:58

, mosque or temple of some sort . So one in three

13:00

were just religious and they would attend

13:02

that once a week . Okay , so you got

13:04

to factor out synagogue , mosque

13:06

, temple being like hindu temple

13:08

or something . Those those factors . Uh

13:11

, so that's probably closer to like 15

13:14

to 20 percent would be attending

13:16

church . You know , once a week you know

13:18

, that's prior to covid , but from 2020

13:21

to present . Uh , that dropped

13:23

, um , that

13:25

dropped about five , six percent overall

13:27

, like that's includes muslims

13:30

, jews and is a total

13:32

religious about five percent . You know , over

13:34

now it doesn't sound like a lot , but if you think about

13:36

this in terms of um , all

13:39

the , all the religion oh yeah , yeah , yeah

13:42

, um , but on average church

13:44

attendance , because christian churches are

13:46

about uh , now this , different

13:48

surveys have different data on this . they're about they're about 10

13:50

to 15 percent percentage points lower

13:52

than before

13:55

covid . Yeah , so if you

13:57

think about each church , the average church is

14:00

15 percent lower in attendance

14:02

today , in 2024 , than

14:04

they were before COVID . So in a five-year

14:07

, four-year period , covid hit

14:09

in 2020 . We're recording

14:11

this in April of 2024

14:13

. So in a four-year period , imagine

14:16

if your church stagnated or

14:18

declined by 15%

14:20

in church attendance over four years . Yeah

14:23

, so

14:25

that's what it's kind of put that in perspective , that's what COVID did to churches

14:28

in spite of , you know , their efforts of outreach

14:30

and things like that . Yeah

14:33

, so lockdowns , you know the lockdowns

14:35

were a major part of that . You know , because people were locked

14:37

down and we have we

14:40

have a lot of opinions . I have a lot of opinions about the lockdown

14:42

culture and all that , but we won't get

14:44

into that . That's another thing . Yeah

14:46

, yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah . But yeah , churches

14:48

are about . This is a survey

14:50

from , I think , gallup . Churches are only

14:53

about 85% of their pre-pandemic

14:55

levels right now 85%

14:57

church attendance attendance

15:00

. It's difficult . It's also difficult

15:02

to determine some of this

15:04

because some people when

15:09

they leave church , like during the pandemic they would leave church and then they have not come back

15:11

yet , so they haven't even switched churches , they just stopped attending church altogether

15:14

. Now , that might have been what

15:16

we call the Christers , the Christmas Easter

15:19

Christians . Yeah

15:22

, that's the ones who don't attend that much , but yeah

15:25

. So , overall , to summarize that , 10 to 15

15:28

attrition rate over the

15:30

last four or five years because of covid

15:32

uh , so the churches are still trying

15:34

to recover . Uh

15:36

, about 16 of christians

15:38

who attended church pre-pandemic

15:41

, 16% have stopped

15:43

attending entirely . That's a Barna

15:45

poll from this year

15:47

or last year .

15:49

This is US yeah .

15:50

Oh , yeah , yeah , US Christians . So 16%

15:52

. So if you look at all the Christians

15:55

, you've got 100 Christians and you line them up , 16

15:57

of them have stopped coming to church since

16:00

the pandemic of

16:02

them have stopped coming to church since

16:05

the pandemic . Demographically , boomers the boomers have been the

16:07

most consistent in staying in church or returning

16:10

to church . There's about

16:12

65% are still

16:14

attending the church . They did before

16:16

COVID . Okay , now some of them have

16:18

switched and all that . However

16:21

, there has been attrition , even among the boomers

16:23

, and so , whereas they have

16:25

a greater percentage of people still in church , there

16:28

has been a percentage of boomers who've stopped

16:30

going , and they actually make up

16:33

the majority of people who

16:35

have discontinued going to church

16:37

. So boomers are a huge generation

16:40

in terms of the population .

16:42

It's interesting too , because they would be most committed , but

16:44

I think they were also affected by COVID differently

16:46

than the younger generation .

16:48

So about 22% of boomers have stopped attending

16:50

church altogether and that

16:53

is the largest

16:55

portion of people

16:57

who have stopped attending church . Compare

17:00

that to only 13% of millennials

17:02

have stopped coming to church . So

17:04

there's actually a higher percentage of millennials who

17:07

have continued coming

17:09

to church or , you know

17:11

, have not left church altogether . But

17:13

there's such a smaller demographic

17:16

than boomers , so it's having a boomer

17:18

attrition is having an

17:20

outsized effect .

17:22

It's an interesting ones .

17:23

Yeah , there are some bright spots , you

17:26

know , even though overall , church attendance has declined

17:28

, millennials are increasingly

17:31

open to church attendance , not

17:33

just pre pandemic but post pandemic , and

17:35

the researchers like attribute that

17:37

to millennials hitting

17:40

these stages of life , like marriage

17:42

and children , children or like deep

17:44

in their career , and so they're asking

17:46

questions of meaning and

17:49

they're looking for guidance , moral

17:51

counsel , either for themselves or for their children

17:53

, and so more

17:56

millennials , whereas a lower percentage of them were

17:58

not in church in their early 20s , they're

18:01

now coming back to church and

18:03

you know there was this is anecdotal , but I

18:05

I've seen a lot of this on social media . I'm

18:08

in the twitter sphere a lot and

18:10

even before covid this

18:12

2016 ish , until now

18:14

, so the last eight years when it

18:16

feels like the the world went crazy

18:18

with wokeness and transgenderism

18:21

and all these other things that that

18:25

exploded . Anecdotally , I've seen people kind

18:27

of notice how crazy the world is

18:29

getting and sort

18:32

of looking at this , at

18:34

their options , weighing their options

18:36

of is is a non-religious

18:39

world really the world that

18:41

we want , or

18:44

maybe I should give Christianity a try again . In

18:46

fact , I've seen comments to that effect all

18:48

over Twitter of people who grew up

18:50

in church and they left church because it

18:52

was posh or it was cool to

18:54

be an atheist or agnostic and

18:57

organized religion was passe

18:59

. Organized

19:03

religion was the source of all the problems in

19:05

the world . This is like the new atheism talking

19:07

um , but since

19:09

then these that same demographic

19:11

is starting to , I think , have

19:13

a have a . No pun intended

19:15

. But to come to jesus moment , yeah

19:17

, um yeah , and and realize like , oh

19:20

, like , maybe , maybe there was something to this

19:22

Christianity thing . So

19:25

there's a high percentage of millennials coming back and

19:27

, interestingly , even inside the millennial , demographic

19:30

minority groups make up

19:32

the largest percentage of that increase .

19:34

Yeah , that's

19:36

good . I mean a lot of interesting numbers there

19:38

. I am interested in that . The

19:41

younger generation I wonder what the gens did

19:43

. You find anything with the gen z years ?

19:45

uh , nothing , nothing . Uh well , nothing

19:47

with church attendance . I don't have it in front of me .

19:49

I have some stats on like scripture reading and things

19:51

like that but uh , I'd have to go dig that

19:53

up yeah , because there was a something

19:55

about um gen z years

19:58

or those who are just graduating from high school

20:00

how there was this new move

20:02

towards traditionalism

20:04

or going back to kind of conservative , more conservative

20:07

, conservative roots . So

20:09

it's going to be interesting to see how the next 10 years play out , because

20:11

they've seen 10 years of

20:13

liberalism and they're looking at that

20:15

to your point , looking at all that happening . Like

20:17

, do I want that ? Like should I try

20:19

something different ?

20:20

Yeah , it's sort of that's sort of true . It Do I want

20:23

that , like should I try something different ? Yeah , it's sort of that's sort of true

20:25

. It's true for Gen .

20:25

Z guys yeah .

20:26

Gen Z men are becoming more conservative

20:28

, but Gen Z females women

20:30

are becoming more liberal .

20:33

That's right . You mentioned that in one of our episodes . Yeah

20:36

, on that . Yeah . So again

20:38

, very interesting numbers . It's going to be interesting to

20:40

see how that plays out into the future

20:42

in regards to this aspect of church attendance . People

20:44

want community , I think essentially and that's

20:46

why we did our episode

20:49

on prosperity

20:51

well , not prosperity pastors , but

20:53

false

20:56

teachers , false teachers , yeah . So people want community

20:58

so much that they're willing to sacrifice one

21:00

big part of it , whether it be the preaching or

21:02

the music , whatever the case is , as long as they're

21:04

getting community . I think that's what's appealing to

21:06

the Gen Zers , even some millennials

21:08

, that it's appealing to

21:11

be part of a community If there's

21:13

music , if there's entertainment . All of those

21:15

things are done to bring

21:17

people together . And you'll see the pastors kind of mention

21:19

this . They'll say we just want people

21:21

together , we want you to come to church .

21:23

That's the emphasis Come to church .

21:25

Here's why .

21:25

And be a part of a movement that's exactly

21:28

what it is , something like that . Yeah , so there's this emphasis

21:30

on community which is not wrong

21:32

. It's not totally wrong .

21:34

Yeah .

21:34

But sometimes they emphasize community over

21:36

gospel a lot of times

21:38

. Okay , a lot of times , okay . So let's get into

21:40

some . These are some basic

21:43

Bible lessons here . Why do we

21:46

go to church ? Because , as

21:48

we were talking about this before the episode

21:50

, a lot of times people

21:53

equate being a Christian with

21:55

going to church . Like that verb

21:57

, I go to church . And

22:00

we would flip that around and say Christians

22:03

belong they ought to belong

22:05

to a church , a church being not

22:07

a building but a community . But

22:09

so many times people think

22:12

Christianity , the act or

22:14

the state of being a Christian , is the

22:16

act of going to

22:18

a church . So you want to unpack that a little

22:20

bit the misnomer of equating being a Christian with going to church

22:22

, church . So you want to unpack that a little bit the misnomer of equating being a Christian

22:25

with going to church .

22:27

Yeah , yeah , I think it's funny

22:29

because we're talking about the age group that is coming

22:32

to church , wanting community , and

22:34

it's in that stage of you have teenage

22:37

years , moving into young adulthood

22:39

years , and in the psychology

22:41

realm we'll call that the moving into young adulthood years

22:43

and in the psychology realm we'll call that the identity versus isolation stage

22:45

or the intimacy , I'm sorry , versus isolation stage . That's

22:48

young adulthood , but prior to that

22:50

is identity versus confusion . I mean

22:52

you're really developing your identity or looking

22:54

for it during your teenage years . That's why you see

22:56

so many changes . Right , They'll like punk rock

22:59

one year and then they'll transition

23:02

over to , I don't know , classical

23:04

the next year . They're just trying to find where

23:06

they fit in and many people

23:08

have taken that into their adulthood . So they're doing

23:10

the same thing with churches . Where

23:13

do I fit in ? Where can I find my place ? Who's desiring

23:16

to have a connection with me ? So they're

23:18

going through all of that process and I think

23:20

it does come down to just wanting to identify

23:22

and be identified as something . So that's

23:24

why everyone today is a Christian . They'll say I'm a Christian because

23:26

I go to church .

23:27

Yeah , okay . So early adolescence

23:30

, young people , are you

23:32

mentioned identity versus confusion

23:34

. Is it fair to say they're moving from confusion

23:37

to their sense of identity , or

23:39

is it like they're making a choice between am I going

23:41

to remain confused or am I going to

23:43

solidify my identity ?

23:44

yeah , there's some who their identity

23:47

is , for example , sports , so they're an athlete

23:50

. So for them , that's all their life

23:52

, that's what they've never known . It's

23:54

clear for them . You have others who are

23:56

searching , so you'll see them jump around

23:58

from group to group , or they're the

24:00

isolated ones who are just trying to say okay . I

24:02

just don't really have any friends . I'm always bullied

24:05

. They don't have anywhere to go , so

24:07

they don't connect with anyone . So in a lot of

24:09

ways , they feel confused about that . Why am

24:11

I not liked ? Why don't I belong to this

24:13

particular group ? I like them , but they don't like me

24:15

. So either you know your identity

24:18

like you're an athlete , you're the smart one

24:20

, you're the smart one , you're the skilled one , whatever

24:22

the case is , that's

24:26

your identity . And then for others , though it's they're just confused . They don't know where

24:29

they , where they belong . And again , that's why they fall into these

24:31

fads and and movements , because

24:33

they want to be part of something , even if it means

24:35

not really

24:38

believing what that group believes . You

24:40

know .

24:40

That's why , when we look at media

24:42

, is that they're focusing and targeting

24:44

young teenagers yeah

24:47

, yeah , okay , so that that would be early adolescence

24:49

and by the time we get to sort

24:52

of the college age like later adolescence

24:54

, they're going . They're that in the battle

24:56

between you said uh intimacy versus isolation

24:59

okay , and intimacy being like that

25:01

connect relational connections with

25:03

, be that a romantic partner

25:06

or deep friends , or deep friends

25:08

, yeah .

25:08

Community oriented . And the tricky part

25:10

is that some young adults take

25:13

their identity confusion into

25:15

that stage . So they're still confused . If

25:17

they can't even identify themselves what they

25:19

are , what their identity is , then

25:22

they're still going through these different stages

25:24

of trying to find connection in church

25:26

or with other people they don't know . You know , I

25:28

mean your brain is fully developed , the prefrontal

25:30

cortex , so you're 25 . So

25:32

again , even just from a logical

25:34

standpoint , it's

25:37

hard to know really who you are . I mean I think I

25:39

feel pretty secure in identity 26

25:42

, 27 . But again , some

25:44

people don't even have that . Some people are doing that in their 30s

25:47

, mid-30s they still don't know what to believe yeah

25:49

, you know so they don't have a good grasp on , so

25:52

, on their identity , so all that kind of meshes

25:54

together with yeah , it's interesting

25:56

.

25:56

You know , I'd say I had to grow up pretty quick

25:58

in my 20s , my teens

26:00

and my 20s um , but I still

26:02

I was during that time right

26:05

, I joined . Well , I joined , uh , the guard

26:07

when I was 25 okay

26:09

, yeah yeah , um , uh

26:12

, and then I got out when I was 30 , so , um

26:14

, so I well , I signed when I was 24 , so six-year

26:16

contract yeah um , but uh

26:19

, yeah , I remember , like the light

26:22

bulbs , like the big light bulbs of life

26:24

didn't start coming on until

26:26

26 , 27 .

26:28

Even though I had grown up a lot yeah .

26:32

And I had . You know , when I was in college you

26:34

know I was I

26:36

worked my way into the honors program . I became

26:38

, at Liberty , a resident assistant , you

26:41

know , as a sophomore , which is not , it's

26:43

not super rare , but it's not common either , and

26:46

that was my way to pay for a college I had . there

26:48

was no safety net you know

26:50

, for me we're getting a little bit off topic here , but you know but

26:53

. But you know I had to grow up pretty quick in

26:55

that time period and so I had to . I had to basically

26:58

be responsible . I think

27:00

that was probably my where I rooted

27:02

my identity was the competency

27:05

of being responsible .

27:06

Yeah , but then when I ?

27:08

get into my mid twenties and you get outside

27:11

of the dorm and you get into the working world and you

27:13

have to learn all kinds of new kind of competencies

27:15

and responsibilities , and so I think my identity kind

27:17

of got swirled up again you

27:19

know , but it was like 26

27:22

, 27 , when like a lot of light

27:24

bulbs started coming out of like long-term adulthood

27:26

, like maybe I should save

27:29

for a house , maybe like

27:31

yeah , all these , all the big things , yeah , yeah

27:33

, like you know , saving for retirement

27:36

, all those things . It was just like an avalanche of like

27:38

thoughts like I'm gonna get old one

27:40

day , yeah yeah , yeah , okay , so we're

27:42

a little bit off topic here , but

27:44

no , but that's that's good , though I think .

27:46

I think that is important , because if

27:48

you don't know your identity , or if you're

27:50

not establishing that by that age

27:52

24 , 24 , whatever the case is , again

27:55

, where are you gonna go ? Like , what

27:57

church will you connect to ? Like you won't see a need

27:59

for it .

27:59

I even saw guys , you know , when I was an

28:01

RA , on the halls . Even

28:04

that back then this was still millennial

28:06

time period guys would say I

28:09

don't feel the need to go to church , I'll just watch it from

28:11

my computer , because the internet church was kind of taking

28:13

off back then , the streaming services and whatnot

28:15

. That was when

28:17

everything buffered . You know , when everything buffered

28:20

you know , had the buffering wheels and all that . It wasn't happening

28:22

you know the seamless streaming that we have now . but

28:24

but yeah , you know , there were guys in the

28:26

dorms . This is at Liberty , you know the Christian

28:28

campus . They could walk too . Yeah , they could literally

28:31

roll out of their bed , roll down the hill and

28:33

like land in a church you know , but

28:36

they're like no , I'll , I'll , I'll

28:38

watch it from my dorm room or whatever and that's

28:40

my church for me . And so

28:42

there's , I think , and that

28:45

has not gone away , that mentality has

28:47

not gone away for a lot of people . I attend

28:50

church . We joke around

28:52

the bedside Baptist , I

28:57

go to bedside Baptist . Now , this

28:59

is not to put down people who

29:01

are shut-ins , not

29:04

to um , there are . This is not to put down people who are shut-ins , like there

29:06

are elderly communities that are not able to come to church because

29:09

of physical , uh , ailments , right

29:11

, some sort . So this is not we're this is not referring

29:13

to them . This this is . This is the ability

29:16

versus non-ability , you know , think about

29:18

someone who is able , able-bodbodied

29:20

and responsible enough to come

29:22

to church and is choosing not to for some reason

29:24

. Yeah , so , okay

29:26

. So we're going around , like kind

29:29

of going around the circle in the wagon here a little bit . You're

29:32

circling the pond . What analogy

29:34

am I looking for here ? Yeah , oh , we're not

29:36

. We need to land the plane .

29:38

Land the plane .

29:38

That's a good one , yeah yeah , the plane , yeah so , but biblically

29:40

so

29:42

, not to unpack a whole doctrine of ecclesiology

29:45

here , but I think people have lost what

29:49

the meaning of church actually is . So

29:51

really , really quick , high level , biblical

29:54

ecclesiology . Why

29:57

am I using that word ecclesiology ? Because the Greek word

30:00

for church is ecclesia

30:02

, which means assembly . The

30:04

church in the New Testament that is

30:06

the word that's used is ecclesia , or

30:08

it's called the body that's sometimes

30:11

the body of Christ . So

30:13

the church is this

30:15

relational community . It's not a

30:17

country club where I pay my membership

30:19

dues and then I come and I get entertained or

30:21

I have nice fun social functions

30:23

and I have my click and all these things , although

30:25

there are a lot of people who treat church that way and

30:28

I think especially the bigger the church gets , the

30:30

more it attracts that kind of mentality

30:33

. So big churches

30:35

need to be careful about that , not

30:37

to just over-program their

30:39

church . But so

30:42

the church is a relational

30:44

body and it's full of people who

30:46

are gifted , like the Holy Spirit

30:48

. When someone becomes a Christian , the Holy Spirit

30:50

gives them gifts that

30:52

are meant to be used for

30:54

the body of Christ . That is the

30:56

church the

31:11

elders , the teachers of the church . They are responsible to equip the saints for the work

31:13

of the ministry . Okay , so the ministers themselves are not

31:15

supposed to do all the ministry ? That's

31:17

. Another misnomer in our culture

31:19

is that oh , it's the pastors . They go into ministry

31:22

. I work , you

31:24

know , in the secular world . I'm not in ministry

31:26

. But the biblical picture is that the

31:29

elders of a church , they equip the

31:31

saints with true , sound teaching

31:33

for the work of

31:35

the ministry and the church as the

31:37

body , all together

31:39

, using their gifts and their

31:41

natural talents . But their gifts that the Holy Spirit

31:43

has given them , they grow up together

31:45

, they mature . This is the language Paul is

31:48

using in Ephesians 4 and 5 . They mature

31:50

and they grow up together as one

31:53

body in Christ , all having

31:55

their own functions of

31:58

equal importance to one another . So no

32:00

one can say , like my gifts

32:02

are more important and we don't necessarily

32:04

, like you know , if I have the gift of teaching , I don't

32:06

need someone who has the gift of mercy or

32:08

the gift of giving or something like that . Paul

32:11

says that is the wrong mentality to have

32:13

. If you read through his letters

32:15

to the Corinthian church , he talks about this

32:18

the gifts to the church . So

32:21

, every believer , if you are in

32:24

Christ , you've put your faith in Christ

32:26

. Then the Holy Spirit indwells

32:29

you and has given you gifts that you need to be

32:31

using in the church . So church

32:33

is not just for you and what

32:35

you get from church . So

32:38

we talked about the eulogy of

32:40

church . People who come to church and they

32:42

want to read the scriptures , they want to read themselves into

32:44

the scriptures . And sometimes people come to church

32:46

and they treat it like a spectator sport , like

32:49

I'm here to be entertained , I'm

32:51

here to be fed , like a rabbit going up to a

32:53

feeder and

32:56

I'm just going to like you know , just nibble at the water

32:59

feeder . You know , and that's my feeding for the

33:01

week you know from church . That is the

33:03

false picture of what church is supposed to be . As

33:06

a believer , you are giving gifts

33:08

to the Holy Spirit and you need to be using those . So

33:10

you not only need to be ministered to

33:13

in church , you need

33:15

to be ministering to people . You

33:17

, as a believer , you have the responsibility

33:19

to identify your gifts

33:22

and then to use those in

33:24

the body of Christ . And you can't do that

33:26

in isolation . You can't do that at

33:28

Bedside Baptist yeah , right

33:30

, okay . And you can't do that if

33:33

you

33:35

turn inward because you've been injured

33:37

by church , whether that's a minor

33:39

injury or a very serious abuse sort

33:41

of situation . If you turn inward

33:43

and you say I'm only going

33:45

to focus on this hurt , I'm not going to reconnect

33:48

and re-engage with any body of

33:50

believers , you can't

33:52

live to the fullest as

33:54

a christian . It is impossible

33:56

. The bible , the biblical picture , the

33:59

implication here is that it's impossible

34:01

to live as a true

34:04

believer in Christ

34:06

, like fully alive

34:08

, fully functioning , vibrant

34:11

, walking in the fruit of the Spirit , we might

34:13

say walking in that abundant

34:15

life that Jesus talks about . It's

34:21

impossible to do that if you are isolated from a body of believers . So that's the

34:23

biblical picture of quote unquote going to church

34:25

it's like I belong to a church

34:28

and I'm both

34:30

using my gifts to minister

34:32

and then other people are ministering to me

34:34

with their gifts . So

34:36

being a Christian isn't just going

34:38

to church , as though attending a

34:40

building makes me a Christian .

34:43

Yeah , yeah , yeah . Sounds pretty radical to me

34:45

.

34:45

Radical Radical

34:48

idea Commitment . Yeah , commitment

34:50

is radical . Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah . Well

34:52

, responsibility too , that's . That's the

34:54

thing . I think this is what young people

34:56

need to see is that there there's

34:59

this fear , anxiety

35:06

that comes up when you commit to something and when you you realize I have , I am now responsible for

35:08

something parents talk about . I'm not a parent , so I'll I'll . You're a parent , so you may . You might relate

35:10

to this when , when you have your first child , it's

35:12

like this weight of response , it's like this joy

35:14

, but also this weight of responsibility hits you

35:16

like there is now a human life that

35:19

you are now responsible to sustain

35:21

and that human can't do

35:23

anything without you , yeah

35:26

. So that weight of responsibility hits you at

35:28

that moment along with the joy , and

35:31

the same thing goes for any commitment

35:33

that you make marriage or a

35:35

commitment to a body of believers too you

35:38

have this responsibility

35:40

that comes with it and that can produce some anxiety

35:42

in people . It's if I commit to this and I'm responsible

35:45

, and that responsibility means inconveniences

35:48

. At times , it means I'm gonna have to

35:50

devote my time and my energy to

35:53

this , uh , to these other

35:55

sheep that smell and stink

35:58

and make noises and all that yeah um

36:01

, but that's what the biblical picture is and

36:03

there's freedom in that . Sometimes people

36:05

think , if I commit , if I

36:07

, if I myself the language

36:09

of like , I'm going to tie myself down to

36:12

this . In marriage they call it the ball

36:14

and chain you know or something

36:16

like that , With any commitment

36:18

, this image of like , oh , I'm going to

36:20

tie myself down and I'm limiting my options

36:22

, because sometimes young people

36:24

will think of it that way . I don't want to limit my options

36:26

. I want to keep looking around , but

36:28

there's freedom in committing .

36:31

There's freedom in choosing .

36:33

There's freedom in assuming responsibility

36:35

for something , because it actually takes options

36:38

off the board for you and you don't

36:40

have analysis paralysis and you can

36:42

actually move forward with whatever

36:44

your commitment is , and there's actually

36:46

freedom in that . I think people

36:48

need to see that especially

36:50

young people .

36:53

I love that , something that came up in my

36:55

mind right now as you were mentioning

36:57

that idea of commitment and giving

37:01

and feeling responsible for serving

37:04

others in the church , everything

37:08

else outside of church we

37:10

give everything we have and

37:13

then when we come to church , it's all about just receiving . Yeah

37:15

, right . We do the best at our job . We're

37:18

the best at , you know , maybe even at home

37:20

, or the best at what

37:23

else Activities that you have going on

37:25

, being involved in community projects . We

37:27

give everything of us to all of those other

37:29

things . And then for church it's like all

37:32

right , I come to receive and that's it . It's

37:34

the one place that we want

37:36

to give the same or more

37:38

to the church , because

37:40

it feeds back into itself

37:42

. Everyone comes to give and there's that

37:44

expectation that you should have of yourself

37:47

to give to serve to the church

37:49

. And then , if everyone has that mentality , we're

37:51

all benefiting from that Because , again , that's the body

37:53

believers serving each other and that's how it

37:55

functions . Well , you know , if

37:57

there's something wrong with my body , it's going to affect

37:59

, you know , my sleep , it's going to affect

38:02

the way that I exercise , so on

38:04

, right . So you try to develop

38:06

this mentality of giving of

38:09

what the Lord has gifted you with

38:11

to the church , but we only

38:13

use those things in other places , outside

38:15

of that . So I don't know , it just hit me , as it's

38:18

so interesting , like I give of myself so much

38:20

to this , this , this and that , but when we come to church

38:22

it's like all right , what do you have to give me ? And ? we just

38:24

wait , kind of pathetically , for things to come to us

38:26

.

38:26

Yeah . So some advice

38:28

I would give . If you're in a church , some people might

38:30

say , well , there's no opportunity for me , I

38:33

don't know where to start . If you're

38:35

in a church maybe you're in a big church and it's like

38:37

programmed out and like every service

38:39

feels like a choreographed Broadway show

38:41

or something like that Go

38:47

find someone on staff and ask them where you can help . I'm sure there's always something that

38:49

needs to be done . If you're in a smaller church

38:52

, I can guarantee you there's something that needs

38:54

to be done . So

38:56

pastors are always looking for volunteers to

38:58

help and to serve in some way . So

39:01

find a place where you can minister

39:04

and use your gifts , and it may not be that you can immediately use the gift that you really want

39:06

to exercise . So find a place where you can minister and use your gifts , and it may not be that you can immediately use

39:08

the gift that you really want to exercise . So some people

39:10

they feel like they , I have the gift

39:12

of administration or I have the gift of

39:14

leadership or I have the gift of teaching , and

39:16

these are sort of platform gifts where

39:19

people see you . And

39:21

I think , for those guys and gals

39:23

who have those kinds of gifts , maybe

39:27

you have other gifts too and maybe try

39:29

to exercise some of those quote unquote lesser

39:31

or smaller gifts , the unseen ones that don't

39:34

get a lot of praise . It's

39:36

okay to exercise those too .

39:37

Yeah , yeah , and you do have , and you mentioned

39:39

that earlier too is that you do have gifts

39:42

, right , I think ?

39:42

Yeah , everyone has , every Christian has gifts .

39:44

Yeah , there's this part of us that

39:46

maybe becomes either overly

39:49

critical or self-conscious , or

39:51

maybe doesn't want to use

39:53

or wants that platform

39:56

position or whatever the case

39:58

is . But the way that you develop

40:00

your gifts and develop even others is

40:02

by exposing yourself to these different

40:04

situations . Develop even others is by exposing

40:06

yourself to these different situations . You

40:10

know , even talking about church hurts . Sometimes it feels like

40:13

the service that you're giving feels like you're

40:15

not being thanked for it . Right , and it can't

40:17

be like that . But again , that's

40:20

another part of this is that why are

40:22

we doing ? What we're doing is to serve

40:24

others . That doesn't mean that they shouldn't thank you right , or

40:26

that you should , that whoever's over you shouldn't

40:29

say thank you for your work . But to expect

40:31

that , I think , is going to set you up for that disappointment

40:33

and you know , I guess , what we would call

40:35

the church herd . So a big

40:37

part of psychological health , mental health , is if

40:40

you have false or too high of expectations

40:42

, you're always going to feel like

40:45

you're not being treated well , there's always going to be something

40:47

wrong and you won't be able to enjoy your

40:49

Christian walk .

40:50

Yeah , I have a question for you . We're both millennials

40:53

, but I don't have any children

40:55

, but you have children . So the millennial

40:57

parents who are listening , what advice

40:59

would you give them about going

41:02

to church in relation to their children , like what

41:04

their children observe in them or the reasons

41:06

, maybe , why their children need to understand

41:08

why it's important ?

41:09

Yeah , your kids are watching

41:11

, and I experienced this both working at a Christian

41:13

school and also being part of the

41:15

church that I grew up in for most of my life . Your

41:19

kids are watching you everything that you're

41:21

doing . They're watching you at church and then they're watching you

41:23

at home and they have to line up . The

41:26

mistake , I think , that I've seen parents make

41:28

is that they go to church every Sunday , they

41:30

take their kids to Sunday school and then

41:32

when they go home , it's just not the same

41:34

thing . Everything and you're expecting

41:37

as a parent . Well , we used to go to church all of the

41:39

time and we used to take them to Sunday school and all these church

41:41

events Awana and all these things . But the

41:44

power is not so much in them doing

41:46

those things , but it's in what they're seeing at home , how

41:48

you relate to them , what kind of time you spend

41:50

with them . What are you talking to them about , like

41:52

, are you talking to them about Jesus , or are

41:54

you just watching TV all day , Like

41:58

, what are you doing with them at home ? That reinforces what they're learning at

42:00

church , and

42:10

I saw parents who , both at church and at the Christian school , they thought that that would be enough , but I would hear stories from their kids

42:12

like Mr Sam . You know , this is not what they show at church , is not the same thing that we see at home . And that was disheartening

42:15

, because I love the parents and I love the students , so

42:18

it was hard to kind of feel that disconnect . So I

42:20

learned a lot from that is that your kids are

42:22

always watching and they're

42:24

not going to want to go to church , sometimes , say no

42:26

, I don't like church . Okay , well , we're going to go to church , that's

42:28

it . And you just kind of put them in the car and they

42:30

see that discipline . And

42:35

they will one day understand , as you continue to talk to them at home and you see them

42:37

at church , why you did what you did . And again , it's not just the

42:39

discipline , it's the body of Christ

42:41

, it's

42:47

getting God's word from the message , it's worshiping together , it's all of those things . And

42:49

again , psychologically healthy , emotionally

42:51

healthy , spiritually healthy , it's

42:53

a practice , it's a discipline , it's something

42:55

that they can make as part of their lives

42:57

.

42:57

Yeah , and I would say I would just add one

43:00

thing to that that you know that

43:02

might require sacrifice . We talked about the summer sports leagues and things like

43:04

that , Parents you know that might require sacrifice . We talked about the summer sports leagues and things

43:06

like that . Parents , you know your

43:09

children observe patterns and

43:11

they see , oh , like , if

43:14

I can deprioritize church because of

43:16

something that's more important for

43:18

my career or

43:21

for my potential for college

43:23

or whatever that is , they

43:26

will subconsciously put

43:29

it in them to say , okay , church

43:31

is on a hierarchy of my values

43:33

. It's going to be a little lower than some

43:35

other things , depending on the situation . That's

43:39

something that , as a parent , you

43:41

may not consciously or intentionally do

43:44

, but

43:46

it's an interpretation of all the circumstances

43:48

that a child may conclude .

43:52

They'll observe your behavior and

43:54

your words , right ? So the behavior

43:56

is what's going to make the impact , like , what are you doing

43:58

? They're looking at that because that's what's real to them

44:00

and they're just saying , okay , are they speaking

44:03

about this ? And they're just trying to see if it lines up . You

44:05

know , as they get older , even as young children , right

44:07

, they see things and they're taking it in

44:09

. Maybe they can't put it into words , but they're

44:11

seeing it . Once they're able to put it into words

44:13

, then you start looking back and saying , oh , what

44:16

can I do to do those ?

44:17

things .

44:18

So just a small word of encouragement

44:21

advice .

44:23

All right , so that concludes our episode on going

44:25

to church .

44:27

It's super important . Keep doing it

44:29

, and yeah , I think

44:31

we're good man . All right , I'll see you next one guys

44:33

.