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All right , everyone . Welcome back to

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the Psych and Theo podcast , the podcast

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that covers cultural topics from a psychological

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and theological perspective . I'm

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Sam and this is my co-host . Tim and

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Tim , how are you doing today , man ?

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I'm good man , I'm doing good . What are we going to talk about today

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?

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Today we are talking about challenging

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the red pill movement . Oh , okay , so that's a hot topic

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, a hot trending topic . Today we are talking about challenging the red pill movement

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. So that's a hot topic , a hot trending topic

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. It's

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been going on actually for a couple of years now , and so probably it's

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been around for a long time , because it sounds like

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the person who you will be describing

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is someone who's kind of dealt

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with this for quite a long time .

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Yeah , apparently , apparently . So we can . Yeah , we can into that Like red pill . What does red pill

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mean ? Absolutely .

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Yeah , and before we get into that , I guess you know one of the things

0:54

that you know where this would be

0:56

. You know this would be part of our top 10

0:58

or not top 10 , our first 10 episodes and

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guys . So we just want to hear from you guys

1:03

If you

1:05

guys can leave a review on the podcast , if he has been tuning in

1:08

this long . And , yeah , leave a review for us , share

1:11

the episode with other people . We really want to hear

1:13

from you guys . We love the word of mouth , you

1:15

know , just kind of you guys telling us how you guys , what you guys think

1:17

about it . But if you can leave a review , that

1:19

way other people can also read what you guys think

1:22

.

1:22

they can also be , um , wanting

1:24

to tune in as well , but we're

1:26

trying to touch on very different topics yeah

1:29

, if you , and leave us a comment on instagram , because

1:31

we're mostly there right now , we're going to expand

1:33

, but leave us a comment there . If you have episode

1:35

ideas , topics that you want us to cover , we'd

1:38

love to do that . Um , so we're going to hit

1:40

some things that are cultural , some things

1:42

that are hit , some things that are cultural , some things that are theological

1:45

, some things that are psychological for Sam's world of

1:47

counseling . So we're going to

1:49

. We can range all over the place , but

1:51

we want to hear from you what is

1:53

important for you to hear . What do you want to hear ?

1:56

Absolutely , absolutely . And this

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is one , this idea of the

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red pill movement . It's one that we thought

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would be important to address because

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it affects the way that men think

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and behave in culture , and

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we'll see after today kind of

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why it is that way and

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is there any reasons for it and what's

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the leading cause for having this red

2:19

pill mentality . So we'll talk

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a little bit about that , but first we'll get to

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defining what the red pill

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movement is , because initially , you

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know , red pill used to be associated

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with kind of this more conservative

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, far right extremism

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. But as we continue to dig

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into it a little bit more , we realize

2:40

now that actually the red pill

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has to do more with this sociological

2:45

masculine

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perspective that is distorted

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in a lot of different ways . So we'll

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jump into that . But , tim , from what

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we've been researching , what

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is the red pill movement

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or who are the ?

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red pill guys . So let's

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dissect this just a little bit so

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the audience can understand the terms

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that we're using . So red pill I was actually

3:09

sitting with some friends um

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last week and I told them about

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this episode , the red

3:15

pill episode , and to my surprise

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a lot of them didn't know what I meant

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. Some of them did , or they they knew what

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, they knew what red pill meant in general , but

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a lot of them had no idea what the red pill community

3:27

was . So then I explained it to them

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and they were kind of shocked by that . So I think the

3:31

audience that's listening maybe

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some of them will know , but I think a lot of them may

3:36

not know exactly what this movement

3:38

is now or what it has become

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. So this might be an episode , if you're listening

3:43

, listening that you might find

3:45

surprising in some ways . Okay

3:47

, so what is a red pill ? What's the red pill community

3:49

? So those

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of us who have lived a long time

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would remember the movie the matrix

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matrix , which came out in 1999

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. Um , and the

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the concept of the red pill comes

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from that movie . There's a famous scene where

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one character named Morpheus

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, played by Lawrence Fishburne , he

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hands the other character

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, neo , played by Keanu Reeves this

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is pre-John Wick days , of course and

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Lawrence Fishburne hands him

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two pills . He says he holds

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out his hand and then one pill , or one

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hand is a red pill , one hand is

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a blue pill , and he says your choice

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is if you take the blue pill , you'll

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go back to sleep . You'll wake up

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and you'll remember nothing of this conversation

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, nothing of what we showed you . Life

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will continue as normal and

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you won't know anything about this . Basically , go back to being

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a normal person , normal and you won't know anything about this

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. Basically , go back to being a normal person . But if you take the red pill , I'm going

4:47

to show you what the world is really like

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. I'm going to show you the truth . I'm

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basically going to wake you up . Okay

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. So what does neo do

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? Spoiler alert look , the movie's been out

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for like 25 years , so if you haven't seen it

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by now , yeah , so he takes

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the red pill and that means he

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and he and he escapes the matrix at

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that point . Okay , so

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the term red pill in

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political discourse and cultural discourse

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came to mean that you had

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been awakened

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by from the typical

5:23

, normal narratives of the culture

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and that started out with , like

5:27

, political libertarianism at

5:30

first , or taking the red pill meant

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that you don't , you're not a normie , you

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don't follow the normal talking

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points in politics or

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culture . I like what

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a famous . You know a really

5:44

well-known libertarian podcaster named Tom Woods

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. He's one of my favorite podcasters . He

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says you know , there's a three

5:52

by five index card of allowable opinion

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that most people stick to , and

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when you become a libertarian , that means you like

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that thing on fire and

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you have different opinions at that point . So

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being a red pill at first just meant

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sort of that Like I'm

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awake to this cultural

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narrative , these cultural narratives that I've been fed since

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my childhood , and I'm going to , I'm going to choose something

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different , I'm going to step out of line , basically

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, but it's it

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started to take on more

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specific meetings . In

6:23

recent years . First it kind of

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went with the alt-right group , which

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that itself started out as like

6:30

a general term and then became associated

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with neo-Nazis and racists and

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things like that . So the term alt-right really

6:37

isn't that helpful anymore

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. But then red pill

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kind of became associated with MAGA

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, the MAGA movement . So

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red pill became synonymous with orange

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pill . So I take the orange pill . That means

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I'm like on the Donald Trump MAGA

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train . But

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then it shifted from that to being

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what , what we're going to talk about today

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, which is red pilled to the

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matriarchal feminist

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society or or , as the red pill guys

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call it , the gynocentric society

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. And so red pill now

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the guys who take

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the moniker red pill and they accept

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it and they wear it with pride have

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come to be , they've come to identify themselves as

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anti-feminists . So

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that's what the movement kind of represents

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. Now when someone says I'm a red pill person , unfortunately

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it tends to just have that connotation

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to it . It no longer has any of the other prior

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connotations . So

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when you see people online talking about

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red pill men or red pill guys

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, they tend to have this meaning

7:42

in mind . It's these guys who are aggressive

7:45

anti-feminists . I shouldn't say aggressive

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in the sense of violent , but aggressive in the sense of

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they're pushing back against the

7:52

feminist narratives of our culture

7:54

, the feminist movement in our culture

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. So they see themselves

7:59

as anti-feminist , as anti-establishment

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, in that feminism is now the established

8:03

dominant cultural paradigm

8:06

of the day . So people look at

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things through a feminist paradigm and

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so they push back against that , because all

8:13

the forces of our culture , media

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, politics , religion and so

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on have adopted and propagate feminist

8:20

ideology and beliefs and

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so they want to push back against that because these things

8:25

have had incredible damage on the culture

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, is their argument . So that's what the

8:29

red pill community means . There are some terms

8:31

that you should know as an audience member

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if you're encountered this

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ecosystem or this group . So

8:38

I'll lay out a few of those . One is called

8:40

the manosphere . This typically

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just means this , this virtual ecosystem

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of men who are disaffected , disillusioned

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with feminist society . So these are kind of

8:50

the red pill guys , um

8:53

, so manosphere kind of refers

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to that thing , like you know , atmosphere , but for men

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. Um so the manosphere can encompass

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a lot of different groups . Some one

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of those groups is called incels . That

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stands for involuntarily celibate . These

9:07

guys are frustrated

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because they want a

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mate , they want to be

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that of a spouse or just a girlfriend

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or whatever , and

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they are blaming feminist society because feminism has ruined or is ruining the society and causing

9:29

all kinds of problems in the mating world , dating , mating and dating world okay , and so these would

9:32

be guys who don't have a mating partner but will really

9:34

really want one , okay

9:36

, uh , another term is MGTOW

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, which is an acronym M-G-T-O-W . It

9:41

stands for men going their own way and

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these could be men who are either married or not

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married , which is an interesting , you know , aspect

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to this . But it basically means

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men who have sworn off

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trying to have a quote unquote

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typical or normal relationship as the

9:57

society would define it , the current

9:59

feminist society would define it . Sometimes

10:01

that means men just saying I'm going to be a . I'm going

10:03

to be like sort of a warrior monk

10:05

stoic warrior monk in society

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. I'm not going to get married , I'm

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not going to tie my assets at

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all to a wife or anything

10:14

like that , like culture would demand

10:16

that I do , because the culture is so weighted

10:18

against me , especially in

10:20

divorce court and family courts and child custody

10:23

and things like that . So

10:25

red pill in this sense means I'm awake

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to what the culture has become now

10:30

and I'm going to choose a different path . There's

10:33

a couple of other terms not as important

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to know , but black pill , which

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means despair or being

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extremely cynical . So when someone says I've

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been black pilled about something , they say I

10:44

have no hope in that thing . Like I've been

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blackpilled about marriage , I have no

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hope in the institution of marriage because it's been so

10:50

corrupted . That's kind of what they mean . Or

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white pill means hopeful , like oh

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, I've been white pilled about the chances of

10:57

turning things around . You know that that's

10:59

not a common thing . You see in the red pill community

11:02

being white pilled , but still there

11:04

other other terms to know .

11:06

Yeah , all right , so that's a that's

11:12

a introduction to what red pill means . Yeah , yeah , and you know , as you were

11:14

, as you were describing those , tim is there

11:16

. Is there reasons

11:18

that why they are feeling

11:21

the way that they are meaning they're that

11:23

way for a specific reason ? Right ? So

11:25

you talked about the incels . The incels

11:27

are intentionally celibate . Did

11:29

I get that right ? no involuntarily I'm

11:32

sorry , involuntarily , involuntarily celibate

11:34

, okay . So when , when you say that

11:36

and I think about okay , they're involuntary celibate

11:39

, so they're either being rejected by women , uh

11:41

, not wanting a relationship , but they they can have

11:43

one , right Kind of this aspect . So I'm thinking

11:45

to myself what did these guys

11:48

go through to

11:50

get to that point

11:52

to

11:54

desire a relationship and not be able

11:56

to have one ? What kind of impact

11:59

does it have on their psyche , on the way that they relate

12:01

? What do you think is happening to

12:03

those men , emotionally , mentally

12:06

, psychologically ?

12:08

Well , you know , it's kind of hard to psychoanalyze

12:12

. You know a whole group , but

12:15

I would say there is

12:17

an aspect . So if someone is like

12:19

, so incel has kind of become an insult

12:21

to that group in a way

12:24

. I think at some point it turned for

12:26

derogatory .

12:26

Yeah , it insult to that group in a way .

12:30

I think at some point it turned to a

12:32

derogatory term . But

12:35

yeah , there's probably a sense of loss of control that they

12:37

feel . And this is where the leaders of the red pill

12:39

community , like the guys who are kind of

12:42

being the standard bearers to guide men to

12:44

a new path , a new way forward these

12:47

guys are holding out

12:49

the , the promise of taking back

12:51

control of your life in

12:53

some way . So I think that's probably prominent okay

12:56

, because ?

12:56

because I think it seems like what

12:59

the red pill is trying to do is to get the incels

13:02

to become MGTOWs

13:04

. Right , because it's trying

13:06

to get them to go your

13:09

own way and create

13:11

a new , different life for yourself

13:13

. Am I getting that right ? I ?

13:15

mean , I don't think you're totally off

13:17

. I think that's probably a major part of the

13:19

, at least the consulting work that

13:21

goes on . And by that I mean like there's

13:23

guys who pitch themselves as consultants

13:25

in this sphere , and I think that's

13:27

probably a lot of . What they do is sort of like

13:29

life coaching sort

13:32

of speak for guys who feel like they are

13:35

trapped in this society , that

13:38

they want something

13:40

but they can't have it , and

13:42

so these consultants or life coaches are kind

13:44

of pushing them in another direction . Hey , like , go

13:47

a different way , yeah , yeah

13:50

, shape your , construct your life in a different

13:52

way . Um , yeah

13:54

, so I think that's maybe

13:57

the a large part of what's going on no

14:00

, that's good .

14:01

And again , the reason for for

14:03

discussing that is because I'm

14:07

asking myself what did they go through to

14:09

think the way that they do ? And when I looked at some

14:11

red pill guys these are the more modern

14:13

ones . They have their podcast . They

14:15

talk very negatively about women

14:17

, about using them , like about

14:19

marriage , about family . All of these different things

14:22

about marriage , about family . All of these different things . And I remember

14:24

there was one guy that I listened to and trying to understand why

14:26

he thought the way that . He thought I'm like , well , it has to

14:28

be . You know , his dad treated

14:30

women a certain way . His dad taught him a certain

14:33

principle or some sort of theme in his

14:35

life . And the way that what

14:37

this guy said , he says

14:39

you know the reason why I know so much

14:41

about these types of women .