0:00

Good afternoon everyone it's Dr.

0:03

Niebro again our next episode

0:05

of Psychology Unplugged. Again

0:07

a heartfelt thank you to all of our

0:10

followers both here

0:12

in the United States and internationally. I

0:15

enjoyed doing this on a weekly basis.

0:18

It's really fun especially when I

0:20

get to talk with you guys

0:23

and you email or text

0:25

or call and I try to

0:27

get back to as many people

0:29

as possible so if I haven't

0:31

gotten back to you please keep

0:34

reaching out and

0:36

I always like when people

0:40

give suggestions for for

0:42

topics and it's

0:45

something like I said something I can

0:48

answer real quickly and others I figure

0:50

because I don't know how I like

0:52

to fill up you know 20-30

0:54

minutes a week on a

0:56

specific topic but

0:58

it's not because I'm not not interested

1:01

and and one of

1:03

the one of the common

1:06

questions that I

1:08

I guess

1:11

I've received lately but

1:13

has been somewhat pervasive

1:15

throughout doing the

1:18

podcast is how

1:21

how do you

1:23

get somebody involved

1:26

in the mental health system if

1:29

you are not the one struggling and

1:33

I did an episode in

1:35

the past maybe a year or two ago on help

1:38

rejecters and I would you

1:40

know I guess maybe this is part two

1:43

but I think it warrants a a

1:50

revisitation because a common

1:55

question that I get is how do I get my brother

1:57

into therapy how do I get my sister

2:00

into rehab, how do I get

2:03

my mother who's had this long

2:05

standing condition to even

2:07

go for a neuropsych eval or

2:10

how do I get someone to

2:12

take medications and I don't

2:15

have an easy answer for this and

2:18

I don't think that there is a one size

2:22

fifth all model. I

2:24

think for any individual entering

2:29

or is reticent to

2:32

enter the mental health

2:34

system I think it's

2:36

important to explore the different

2:40

possible reasons. One I think

2:42

of the most common is

2:44

probably denial. Denial

2:47

because of the shame associated

2:49

with mental health and something

2:51

that I have

2:53

deliberately tried to

2:56

convey throughout all the

2:58

episodes of the podcast is

3:02

removing the label of shame, the

3:06

euphemistic scarlet letter. This

3:12

should not be a life where

3:15

someone is defined by a

3:17

condition that they are experiencing

3:19

but I think denial is

3:23

a major factor why people are

3:27

hesitant to see

3:29

a therapist, see a psychologist get

3:31

a neuropsych eval, even talk to

3:33

their primary care because

3:35

of the shame associated with it

3:37

because I think people tend to

3:39

equate mental health

3:41

or mental weakness whether that's

3:44

depression, anxiety,

3:47

voices, psychosis,

3:50

substance use. They equate

3:52

it I think very much with weakness and

3:56

being defective and

3:58

in A Western world. The

4:00

older than is incredibly

4:03

competitive and them. Ah,

4:05

Highly industrialized and there's

4:08

access to things almost

4:10

immediately of is it

4:13

is a centers on

4:15

most. Ironic.

4:17

Though why wouldn't you wanna? Pay.

4:22

Take the opportunity to engage with

4:24

a practitioner his first see You

4:26

know that the tell the hell

4:29

is so prevalent and then leads

4:31

to a lot more privacy. But.

4:34

I you know other things I

4:36

I've heard from people like you

4:38

know when, when when I when

4:40

a clinician bills of for whether

4:42

some therapy service of a medication

4:44

visit. A. Nurse I give well

4:47

something's mail to the house of you

4:49

have health insurance called the Escalation of

4:51

Benefits. So there's a

4:53

hyper sensitivity to say well yeah

4:55

you did see doctor measure on

4:58

this Daves and if you're you're

5:00

god. Share this with your spouse

5:02

or your family and as a

5:05

white and blue cross was it

5:07

will reduce C and him so

5:09

I think there is is. Yes

5:11

we have hit bird we have

5:14

veto privacy factors and as much

5:16

protection as possible but I do

5:18

think that that same really in

5:20

in inhibits people from and. True

5:22

Mental Health Ah as A is oh

5:25

same before and and I I think

5:27

denial And you know I've I've I've

5:29

used this. Analogy:

5:32

Many times. Where the pop

5:34

yes vote bout you know,

5:36

the carnival mirrors air we

5:38

can distort. You. Know what

5:40

we really looked like? And And

5:43

and last and and man made

5:45

fun of ourselves. Bob Gale that

5:47

only and altered version that doesn't

5:50

really exist. Me

5:52

and you know when I

5:54

try talking so much and

5:56

and emphasizing and truly believe

5:59

and him. The illness and

6:01

truly believe that there is hope

6:03

with mental health. I I want

6:05

to. Use. Allude to

6:07

an article that I read. About.

6:12

Countries where they

6:14

have legalized euthanasia.

6:17

And there are things as a is a

6:19

topic in and of itself. And I was.

6:21

It was a brief article. I remember what.

6:24

Source: a runner from but I

6:26

was reading it in and I'm

6:28

a woman in a European country.

6:30

Was told by her medical provider

6:33

that. Guy. You're beyond

6:35

hope and there's nothing more to

6:37

do for you. And what she

6:39

was diagnosed with was. High. Functioning

6:42

Autism and. Borderline.

6:44

Personality now to me as surpasses

6:46

say Jews avenue his podcast with

6:48

three and a half years and

6:51

has nothing to do with me

6:53

but the esa have somebody say

6:55

that and and then plan as

6:57

next month is planning to be

6:59

euthanized and it's it's legal in

7:01

in the country would she resides

7:03

but. Then. I think for

7:05

me is is it is an awful

7:08

awful message to sell some your beyond

7:10

hope. You know? maybe I'm not the

7:12

best provider? Maybe Ice? I can't. Help

7:14

you are or have exhausted or my

7:16

options But the basically tells me that

7:18

I'm beyond. I'm beyond beyond hope and

7:20

that is the that is the precursor

7:23

for someone to say it's I wanted

7:25

I don't want to live anymore at

7:27

again. That is a totally different topic

7:29

in another self of you know euthanasia

7:31

that I think would be a great.

7:34

A great conversation because I really

7:36

think of as it enters in

7:38

the world of of religion and

7:41

spirituality and as essential as I'm

7:43

and and philosophy. but it is

7:45

hearing that was really. Was.

7:48

Really a thing I want to raise

7:50

were moses of of frustration as an

7:52

An Ng said and pain and and

7:54

and feeling sorry for this woman. Because

7:58

I mean. Are

8:00

people beyond hope? I don't believe

8:02

so as a some disorders are

8:04

more difficult to treat than others

8:06

and sometimes the practitioner that your

8:09

with may not be the best

8:11

fit. I didn't know, I mean

8:13

I I I could I have

8:15

as a diagnostic and I'd test

8:17

for everything. That does not mean

8:19

I specialize in the treatment everything

8:22

and I accept that and admit

8:24

that and it's as a dog

8:26

is generally treated the purcell his

8:28

lawyers. I can treat depression. Like

8:30

a treat or see the i can treat the

8:32

a variety of things but there's other things that

8:34

I just as you know there are people who

8:36

are better at it's that nut than me. When.

8:39

You know Julie does meds and

8:41

sometimes you know she. You know

8:43

I'm. Texan

8:46

and concepts her colleagues who says you

8:48

know we are having a success as

8:51

fields and a it's it's and be

8:53

It can be difficult and what I

8:55

what I what I try to tell

8:58

people at least those a message chooses

9:00

his dad I am one person and

9:02

I am. I did this with somebody

9:05

recently as as just consider just we

9:07

just come at me with me. And

9:10

it was incredibly productive

9:13

because the the Association

9:15

of was. Mental

9:18

health is one. A neural

9:20

psyche of Allah is what

9:22

part of the behavioral therapy

9:24

is really. Is I

9:27

think we've only serve as a

9:29

scratch the surface. and

9:31

there's a lot of fear ah you know

9:33

and be less are you know the of

9:35

to lecture oozing these are going to shoot

9:38

me fully and a full of needles aim

9:40

for been a machine so there's all there's

9:42

so much even though i do this for

9:44

a living and i mean it's it's they're

9:47

so as the people don't know and i

9:49

think that fear to be paralyzing anna think

9:51

another you know possible reason for not wanting

9:54

to get into treatment as ignorance is bliss

9:56

and another possible reason is i'd people maybe

9:58

see that may feel it their beyond hope.

10:01

And in working in community mental health

10:05

as part of my practicums, my

10:07

internship, as my postdoctoral fellow, and

10:10

even at individuals that see

10:13

occasionally now who

10:15

have been in the mental health system

10:18

since a very young age. They may have been

10:20

removed from their families at a young age for

10:22

a variety of reasons. They may

10:25

have sustained, I'm generalizing here, but just for

10:27

the sake of giving us an example to

10:29

work on, they have been placed

10:32

in multiple foster homes

10:35

and have been abused sexually, have been

10:37

exploited. They've been taken to therapists, they've

10:39

been taken to this person, they've been

10:41

put on this medication, and

10:43

as they've gotten older say they're sitting across

10:45

me and they're 35 years old and

10:48

I'm asking them all these questions

10:50

and I with the realization that they've been

10:52

asked these questions throughout their

10:54

entire life and they

10:56

are sitting across me in as much

10:59

pain as they were back when they

11:01

were a child. And I completely understand

11:03

someone saying why do I want

11:05

to go through this again? It doesn't work. It's

11:08

really hard to argue with

11:10

that logic, but what I

11:13

have found, I think it's sometimes I've

11:15

mentioned this before, the goodness of fit

11:17

model, I think a lot of times

11:20

it's the skill set of

11:22

the practitioner, whether that's a

11:24

neuropsychologist, a med

11:27

provider, an individual

11:29

therapist, there's got to be

11:31

a connection. There's got to

11:34

be a connection before anybody is

11:36

going to tell their story and

11:39

some stories can have a lot

11:41

of shame and some

11:43

stories can have a lot of

11:45

detail and not every clinician is

11:48

able to handle what

11:52

it is someone may be disclosing to

11:54

them and that's a really important insight

11:57

on that part of a clinician because that's what's

11:59

called counter- transference. That's

12:02

when the individual is

12:04

reacting to whatever the

12:06

person across of them is saying. Now again,

12:08

I always say I'm not that old but

12:10

I've seen enough people and there's nothing somebody

12:12

could tell me that would make me be

12:14

like oh my oh geez. And

12:16

that's a function of experience. It's

12:19

a function of being healthily

12:21

desentatized and it

12:23

also helps that my

12:25

wife and my

12:28

partner in our private practice

12:30

and our colleagues, we are

12:32

all in the same field so we

12:34

hear the same things and we're able

12:37

to bounce things off of each other

12:39

which is incredibly not everybody

12:41

has that but it's very healthy because

12:43

when you are a provider in the

12:46

field of mental health, self-care is incredibly

12:48

important. But back to this

12:50

whole thing of what do you do if someone

12:53

you see is struggling. I mean there are things like

12:56

we have what's called like a section 12. If someone

12:59

is danger to themselves or others and I have

13:01

done this where I've had to contact the

13:04

police and the fire department

13:06

and have somebody you know

13:08

involuntarily hospitalized because they

13:11

basically presented or were unable to

13:13

convince me that they if they

13:16

were danger to themselves once they

13:18

left the office. Sometimes

13:20

this can be a very

13:22

seamless process where the person's like

13:24

okay I'm fine I'll go I

13:26

need it. Other times it can

13:28

be incredibly adversarial

13:30

and dangerous and I remember running an

13:33

inpatient facility during my doctor program back

13:35

in Chicago and running down Lakeshore Drive

13:37

and chasing

13:39

people because there's such a fear

13:41

and our inpatient

13:43

facilities of Rich Carlton's

13:45

absolutely not. They're

13:48

there for stabilization and a lot

13:50

of people get scared and I

13:53

can speak to this not as somebody who's been inpatient

13:57

but who's worked inpatient. seen

14:00

this. So you know

14:03

I respect and understand I

14:05

think both perspectives those

14:08

of the individuals who are

14:10

trying to get their husband,

14:12

spouse, child, mother or

14:15

father whoever into the mental health system

14:17

I can certainly respect

14:19

the frustration and the angst and

14:23

I can also respect you

14:26

know where somebody

14:28

may be hesitant but what

14:30

I have found is when

14:32

you make it a condition when

14:34

it becomes threatening when

14:36

it becomes punitive your

14:39

outcome is you know the the

14:41

the success rate or

14:44

the amelioration of symptoms is

14:47

not is not very high

14:49

because if someone's going just because they're told

14:52

to go that's not a

14:54

that's not a that's

14:57

not good enough and I've said this

14:59

before that the only reason people change

15:01

is because they are uncomfortable and

15:03

a lot of times you know

15:05

especially working with personality disorders I spend

15:07

a lot of time just building the

15:10

relationship and building the trust

15:12

and building the consistency which is

15:14

something that is a crucial in

15:16

working with borderline personality even you

15:19

know dependent personality but personality in the

15:22

mental health you know I just keep

15:24

it to borderline you're building that relationship

15:26

is crucial maybe even before you're finished

15:29

several weeks before you really start getting

15:31

into the work but you

15:33

know dragging people in it doesn't

15:36

work dropping your kid off for

15:39

an hour then going to run some air is it

15:41

coming back and people think that

15:43

works that that does that is not an answer

15:46

what is the kid supposed to do look what control

15:48

does it's six seven eight

15:50

nine ten eleven twelve-year-old kid they're going back

15:52

in the same environment and

15:55

you know you know

15:58

Work with kids really has to be a. The

16:00

systems model so can be card to behavioral

16:02

therapy but it kinda say that he can

16:04

drop them off for an hour week and

16:06

expects the Nypd than would change. Nothing ever

16:08

happens. So.

16:11

I think there are a lot

16:13

of various reasons and and as

16:15

and again I am speaking if

16:17

from the from the summation of

16:19

the message that I've got from

16:21

people and and in the pain

16:23

that that they have and the

16:25

pain that whatever pathologies of the

16:27

individual of the error in relationship

16:29

with their of their spouse, their

16:31

partner their their child's ah. You.

16:33

Know and they're there in pain themselves.

16:36

They're often in the therapy but you

16:38

can't wanna more than someone else and

16:40

sometimes you do have to allow someone

16:43

to hit rock bottom. And

16:45

that is easier said than done because

16:47

if you are a idol a result

16:49

human being who wants to see their

16:51

child. Or who want to

16:53

see their spouse who was a caesar. The.

16:56

Their love want in pain and the

16:58

pain of mental health can look sometimes

17:00

very destructive and you know the police

17:02

departments. they have no idea what to

17:04

do with this. they they they they

17:06

they treat did it just as A

17:08

we need to do a better job

17:10

of educating m and providing resources. But

17:12

to the to speak to the defence

17:15

of the police officer these is somebody

17:17

who may be high on Pc, they

17:19

Macys A was waving their arms and

17:21

or any of their job is to

17:23

just maintain safety so you know nothing

17:25

against please. Songs were. Think we need

17:27

to do a better job of educating

17:29

individuals about mental health as and what

17:31

to do in the As in those

17:34

situations. and I remember back in Chicago

17:36

we will. We would call are impatient

17:38

and will add Some of the officers

17:40

were amazing. They're amazing A be able

17:43

to be a Scully people and you

17:45

know it's it's it's it's it's a

17:47

skill set. That. You

17:50

know, forcing somebody into

17:52

mental health rarely? I'm I

17:54

think education is crucial.

17:58

to a vast majority of other

18:00

disciplines outside of ones in mental health. And like I

18:02

said, the police have come a long way, schools,

18:05

but there's more work that we need to

18:07

do because if you're not in this field,

18:09

you're not gonna understand it. And mental health

18:12

in those crisis situations, when somebody may be

18:14

actively psychotic, when somebody may be delusional, when

18:16

someone's running down the street at 3 a.m.

18:20

and they're naked, somebody

18:22

could have intermittent

18:25

explosive disorder and be in a

18:27

violent rage. The

18:29

whole job is whether there's the police or

18:32

whether it's inpatient is to contain. But

18:34

then where do we go from

18:36

there? And sometimes these experiences could

18:39

be incredibly traumatic for an individual

18:41

because their cognition is altered, their

18:43

emotions are dysregulated, it's the

18:46

aftermath. So

18:48

factoring in, when

18:50

you get denial, you

18:52

get shame, you get

18:56

multiple experiences that

18:58

have led to, it's

19:01

almost like the downs, okay, I love driving

19:03

Fords, but every Ford I

19:05

had broke. So

19:08

it's like, how many Fords have you

19:10

had? Well, I've had 15. Okay,

19:12

do you think maybe, is it Ford or

19:17

is it possible that you should might

19:19

try a different manufacturer? Same

19:22

kind of thing with, in terms

19:24

of just dismissing therapy in and of

19:26

itself is

19:29

very similar. It might not just have been

19:31

the right clinician. It might have been, and

19:34

people sometimes feel if they get assigned

19:36

a clinician that they can

19:38

switch and some people do

19:41

better with males, some people do better with

19:43

females, some people do better with older

19:45

individuals, younger individuals, and if you're a

19:48

person considering getting into mental health, you

19:50

have every right to ask for those

19:52

things. And then ask

19:54

for someone's level of experiences. But

19:57

I do see the frustration and wanted

19:59

to dedicate. this episode to

20:02

the reality that there

20:04

is still a lot of fear, a lot

20:07

of unknown, a lot of uncertainty

20:09

about what this whole process is.

20:11

I see what something is just as testing,

20:13

like what is this? What are you going to

20:15

be doing to me? Therapy takes on a whole

20:18

different nature in and of itself because

20:21

you're really telling somebody your

20:23

most private, innermost thoughts and

20:25

that can be embarrassing, that

20:28

can be shameful.

20:32

But on the flip side, it

20:34

can be incredibly liberating to unburden

20:36

yourself from thoughts

20:38

and emotions and behaviors

20:42

and yes, we can change the way we think and

20:44

if we change the way we think, we're

20:48

eventually going to change the way we feel all

20:50

for the better. But

20:53

threatening is not

20:56

going to work. People threaten. Either you get help or

20:58

I'm divorcing you. We're humans.

21:01

We say these things. Go

21:03

to therapy or I'm not dating you.

21:06

That doesn't work until you

21:08

get to a level of discomfort and

21:10

interventions. I just

21:14

think about the Seinfeld episode

21:16

about the interventions. When

21:24

people point the spotlight on

21:26

us that we are doing

21:29

something wrong, independent of its

21:31

mental health, we are making a

21:33

mistake. Automatically

21:37

we shift into being defensive.

21:40

Call therapy 101. Never

21:43

start a statement with you make me

21:45

feel. One that's not

21:47

a true statement because nobody can make anybody

21:50

feel anything. But as soon

21:52

as we hear the word you,

21:54

myself included, we automatically become defensive.

21:57

Hey, you did a great job. That's a

21:59

little different. when it's you with

22:02

the coming statements of

22:06

you better, you need to. And in our

22:08

culture, in our society, we don't like to

22:10

be told that at all. You're

22:13

going to tell a kid with options to

22:15

define disorder or conduct disorder, you need to

22:17

sit down. Even

22:20

a kid with ADHD, tell them that. We

22:23

have this automatic, I

22:25

don't know if that's probably somewhat involved

22:27

in the more the sociological

22:30

fight or flight, but our self-esteem

22:33

is something that is very precious

22:35

and very fragile and

22:37

when it's questioned that

22:40

our sense of self is

22:42

acting in a way

22:45

that is causing problems,

22:47

that's when the

22:50

defense mechanism will kick up. That's when

22:52

it becomes projection, denial, rationalization,

22:55

simplification, justification.

22:59

And you feel back to the episode I did

23:01

on the 17 irrational beliefs outlined by Robert Leahy.

23:07

We all do these, but I think

23:10

in the struggles of getting people into

23:13

the mental health system, these

23:15

are the things that I

23:18

think people in general are

23:20

facing. And sometimes there

23:22

are even cultural issues.

23:26

Say somebody is delusional and

23:29

they're extremely psychotic

23:31

and they have a

23:33

strong religious belief and

23:35

believe that God's telling me not to

23:38

go. Then you get

23:40

into a whole different kind of mindset of like,

23:42

all right, how do I know

23:44

that God isn't really telling this person? My

23:48

non-believer, but

23:51

they're not causing any distress, but

23:53

they're walking around preaching sermons

23:56

and I think it gets into an interesting.

24:00

It's an interesting conversation like,

24:02

you know, does that person need to

24:04

be put on an antipsychotic or do

24:06

they need to be hospitalized

24:08

and not causing any harm? But

24:11

sometimes those, you know,

24:14

cultural beliefs, if I

24:16

say, if you ever get a chance, if you

24:18

have a copy of the big DSM, and you

24:21

go back in the back of the book and

24:23

look at the cultural disorders, they're really kind of

24:25

cool. You don't see them a lot. I've seen

24:27

one or two. But

24:29

not that common. And sometimes different

24:33

nationalities, they have different perspectives on

24:35

mental health that things are all

24:37

dealt with within the home. And

24:40

I work with people who, you know, who

24:43

broke away from the family system

24:45

because they say, look, I don't agree with

24:47

that. And I need a more Western

24:51

approach. And a Western

24:54

approach is something that we are

24:57

indoctrinated in. I think there's, you

24:59

know, utility to meditation

25:02

and mindfulness and

25:04

Easter philosophy, but I will always

25:06

digress back to being a

25:09

scientist practitioner in a Western

25:11

mindset because I was

25:13

trained in that and I see the efficacy

25:15

of it. And I see the

25:17

utility of it and the benefits of it. But

25:20

simply saying go to therapy,

25:23

not going to work. Go to therapy or

25:25

else definitely not going to work. So

25:28

then what do you do? Some people, you

25:30

know, I tell people, you know, you put it on

25:33

the altar. And

25:36

you know, sometimes people have those

25:38

aha moments and sometimes

25:40

it's almost like can you just dip

25:42

your toe in the water and experience

25:45

it? And it's like, wow, that

25:48

was way different than what I thought it was going

25:50

to be. And

25:52

you know, it's also very helpful, like when

25:54

I'm, you know, getting phone calls for, you

25:57

know, grace of God for referrals, for evals.

26:00

kids is helpful for me

26:02

to be asking about parents like, are they open

26:04

to this? Or maybe even if

26:06

it's a wife calling for their husband

26:09

or partner or whatever. Are they

26:11

open to this? You know, what's

26:13

their experience? Is this their first

26:15

time? What is their experience?

26:17

Have what has it been? Because

26:20

it helps me to be more

26:22

prepared upon my initial conversation with

26:24

the person, generally in person, uh,

26:27

of what to kind of expect. And,

26:30

you know, I don't fit the typical mold of

26:32

what people expect when they come to meet me.

26:35

It's not an act that I put on. I

26:37

just am just true and genuine to my, to

26:39

myself. But, um, it,

26:42

it, this is definitely a

26:44

struggle that, um, I think a

26:46

lot of people deal

26:48

with and it can be incredibly frustrating

26:50

when you see people that you love,

26:52

you see people that you care about,

26:55

you see people that, uh, really need

26:57

help. And,

27:00

you know, not that we're smarter or better

27:02

than the other person, but say, look, you

27:04

need to be seeing somebody and

27:06

don't have the magical thinking like, well, it's

27:08

just going to get better overnight. Stuff like

27:10

depression and anxiety. I think people

27:13

minimize that and those things that could

27:15

overtake you overnight. And

27:17

it's frustrating when you see you have

27:19

resources and you have things

27:21

that are not going to

27:23

help you. And you have therapists and you have prescribers and you have

27:25

diagnosticians that

27:28

are willing to help and someone is not willing to take that

27:30

route. Yes,

27:33

that can be incredibly frustrating. And

27:35

I think that's where it's important for you.

27:37

If I'm talking to you as

27:39

a person who is frustrated, um, to talk, to get

27:42

into therapy, to talk to a professional, because it

27:44

can be currently frustrating. It's

27:48

like saying, you keep complaining that you're thirsty and here's

27:50

a glass and they come up with

27:53

25 reasons, most of which

27:55

are irrational, why they won't drink it, but

27:57

you're saying you're thirsty. So

27:59

it's like. stop complaining but it's

28:01

hard what if

28:04

someone you're close to when it's

28:06

somebody you love and then there's other

28:08

people who you

28:10

know have played the I don't

28:12

say game but have dealt with

28:15

family members who've been excuse me

28:19

who have been

28:21

involved with mental health for

28:25

an extended period of time and

28:27

they've seen whether their children get

28:30

get arrested or be have Narcan or

28:32

be in patient

28:36

or in therapy or you

28:38

know prematurely quit therapy and

28:40

and you know this

28:42

stuff takes its toll on on you

28:44

because a lot of projection especially

28:46

when you get to the personality disorders is blame

28:49

you know it's your fault you did this you

28:51

didn't do this and you know

28:53

that that is an exercise of utility but this

28:55

is where a lot of people come from because

28:57

you know I think

28:59

there's that equation that it has that

29:02

is almost an unfair

29:04

synonymous correlation that there's

29:07

something wrong with you and as

29:09

I've said multiple times throughout

29:12

these podcasts I tell people whatever

29:14

it is it's something that you have

29:16

it is not something that you are but

29:19

you cannot want it more than the

29:21

other individual and this

29:24

is the hard part if someone you

29:26

know I mentioned this probably on the

29:28

help rejectors one sometimes you gotta love

29:30

people from afar and sometimes

29:33

you gotta if your own mental health

29:35

is being compromised by it sometimes

29:37

you need you need to walk away

29:39

and and realize unless you're just going

29:41

to be involved in this codependent

29:45

relationship and and if you

29:47

think you're helping you

29:49

might be but you're also reinforcing it because if

29:51

you're there to take care of all the problems

29:53

why are they gonna change if you're

29:55

there to pick up whatever slack they need

29:57

because they need to pick up a shift or they need

29:59

to do that and you're running over but

30:01

they've called you every name in the

30:03

book, how are you helping? If you

30:06

really step back, how are you helping?

30:08

You're not. You're just reinforcing the pathology.

30:10

So it's a topic

30:12

that I wanted

30:14

to revisit because I've

30:17

talked to enough people and there is no

30:20

clear answer being

30:22

supportive, trying to understand

30:25

what their rationale

30:27

for not doing it. Eredod

30:29

wanted to try to get into the mental

30:31

health system. Medication

30:34

is a whole different topic in

30:36

and of itself because people have

30:38

their own beliefs about medication. That's

30:42

a whole conversation of itself. I'm

30:44

just simply talking about just entry into

30:47

the mental health system as

30:49

opposed to say, you know what, I do need to

30:51

kind of address that. But

30:53

I can tell you that with the

30:55

right treatment, to the right diagnoses, obviously

30:57

get a neuropsych eval, the right medication,

30:59

it can be life-changing for the better,

31:01

not only for the person who may

31:04

be struggling with some form

31:06

of psychopathology, but also for all the

31:08

people that are involved and being impacted

31:10

by it because generally,

31:12

in my experience, it's not just

31:15

one person that's being impacted, especially

31:17

when you're dealing with children

31:20

and teenagers and adolescents. But there

31:22

is hope. There is

31:25

definitely hope. Never

31:27

lose sight of that. It's work. It

31:29

does not happen overnight. But

31:32

with the work, generally comes

31:34

the outcomes that you're looking for. Julie? No,

31:38

I was just going to add something.

31:40

Sorry, I wasn't really sitting here for

31:43

the entire podcast. I was doing so

31:46

much needed projects. Anyway,

31:49

first, I want to

31:51

thank the people who started following

31:53

us on Instagram. I

31:55

think it was like, my god, maybe

31:57

around a thousand of you. And

32:00

I asked you to follow my

32:03

stories and give us a follow.

32:06

And I had tears in my eyes. I actually

32:08

was like, I jumped off the couch and I

32:10

was like, what? So

32:13

if you can keep doing that,

32:15

I'm so grateful because we're getting the word out

32:17

about a lot of things. I

32:20

want to also kind of rein

32:23

myself in a little bit. I think that

32:25

my message is really the humane treatment of

32:27

animals in general. But

32:30

I think some of my posts have been

32:32

probably a little more than

32:35

most people want to look at at

32:37

this time. But

32:39

thank you so much for your

32:41

patience and your interest in spreading

32:43

the word. That

32:46

aside, I do want to

32:48

follow up with working with

32:50

people who are ready

32:54

for treatment, are not

32:56

ready for treatment, who

32:59

think they're ready for treatment. And

33:02

then once they're in treatment, they're like, oh.

33:06

Especially those of, like Cora talked about

33:09

clients of ours who've been in the

33:12

field of in

33:14

mental health care for almost their whole

33:16

lives. They kind

33:18

of roll their eyes at therapy

33:21

and starting new with someone. And

33:24

a lot of it has to do with a

33:26

very high turnover rate in these agencies.

33:29

A lot of the agencies are really

33:31

the grind. And

33:33

a lot of people start out

33:36

there and they continue working there. They

33:38

pay more money. But

33:42

the demand is very high to see as

33:44

many patients as possible. Therefore

33:47

the burnout rate is very high. Therefore the

33:49

turnover rate is very high. I've

33:51

seen this probably in, I don't know,

33:53

60% of the patients

33:55

I've seen overall. Clinicians

33:59

leave. For other

34:01

reasons, some go on maternity leave, some get

34:03

a job somewhere else. I've seen that all

34:06

play out in so many

34:08

of my clients' lives over the years. It's

34:11

really hard for people to go

34:13

from one therapist to another. It's

34:16

a very vulnerable relationship especially

34:20

if you have a really

34:22

good connection and you've made a lot of

34:25

progress that can be utterly nerve-wracking to start

34:27

at the beginning of therapy with somebody else.

34:31

Sometimes people will drop out of treatment and give up.

34:36

When people think they need treatment or

34:38

know they need treatment and they start

34:40

treatment too as well and maybe are

34:42

not as familiar with working in therapy,

34:45

sometimes the first few

34:47

visits is really just about gathering history

34:50

and getting into business. Once

34:54

you start delving into your

34:56

history, what I

34:58

notice and what I notice when

35:00

I'm working with collaborative therapists with

35:02

my clients is that people's anxiety

35:05

will go up when they're doing

35:07

work and when they're doing work

35:09

on themselves, when they go back into

35:11

their family of origin issues or traumatic

35:15

issues, the anxiety

35:17

goes up and sometimes they're not really sure

35:19

why they're anxious. Then

35:22

when we start to talk about what's going on

35:24

in therapy, how's that going? They'll say, oh, well,

35:26

we're really talking a lot about my relationship with

35:29

my mom or my

35:31

relationship with my abuser or

35:34

the bullying that I've endured

35:36

growing up or all kinds

35:40

of things that to

35:42

that specific person or

35:44

individual are very difficult

35:46

to discuss. We

35:50

can't lead a horse to water if

35:52

they don't want to drink. You can't

35:54

get water from a rock. I know these are

35:57

cliches, but it's definitely true. I

36:00

can want something and I know

36:02

this more than anybody for a

36:04

lot of my clients. I want

36:06

things more than sometimes they do

36:08

and that is definitely an internal

36:10

antenna for me because it makes

36:12

me kind of pull

36:15

myself back because I'm not really helping

36:17

if I'm kind of coercing.

36:22

Sometimes people just aren't ready and

36:24

sometimes they have to fall down a few times before

36:27

they're ready. And sometimes people

36:30

and their families are the identified patient

36:32

and they have dysfunctional families but this

36:34

one individual in

36:36

the family is the one that there's

36:38

scapegoat with all the issues and problems

36:41

for various reasons and

36:43

it's really more individuals in the family

36:45

that need help just as

36:47

much as this identified patient. So I've seen a lot

36:49

of that as well. In

36:53

terms of that euthanasia, I

36:56

can't even comprehend that. I find

36:58

it quite unconscionable but I

37:01

feel like I don't

37:05

want to talk about hospice really but I

37:07

don't want to speak this much but I

37:09

do know that when someone is dying

37:12

in hospice and

37:15

they're in a lot of pain, I think

37:17

it's pretty well known that sometimes

37:21

they increase the pain medicine. Again, I'm

37:23

not saying that happens all the time. I'm just

37:25

saying that that's sort of been my experience.

37:29

That is with a person who's dying and

37:31

who is consented to that. I

37:35

have never heard of any, look, there are

37:38

a lot of people that in our

37:40

business, it's a fit

37:42

thing. Sometimes

37:44

people meet with people and it's just like right off the

37:47

bat it's not a good fit.

37:49

But sometimes people used to that

37:52

vibe with therapists and then they fire therapists

37:54

a lot which that also isn't good because

37:56

there's something to be said for it. You

37:59

can't repeatedly. fire everybody and

38:02

move on to the next one until you

38:04

find that comfort level. And that

38:06

usually comes down to hearing what you want to

38:08

hear or validation for,

38:10

validation is

38:12

crucial, but someone

38:15

who's not really helping you

38:17

grow. There

38:21

are some therapists who have very different ways

38:23

about it and again,

38:25

it's not a critique. But

38:27

back to the euthanasia in mental

38:29

health, I can't

38:31

even imagine, you know,

38:36

we can have frustrating relationships with our clients at

38:38

times and I think that that can be very

38:40

normal depending on the client. The goal

38:42

would be is to work through it. The

38:45

goal would be is to say, hey, you know,

38:47

if these meds aren't working for you or if this

38:49

isn't working, I have another, I have

38:52

a colleague that if you want another pair

38:54

of eyes. All of

38:56

us are like that, our colleagues, you know, you're

38:58

never alone in this business. If you're alone and

39:00

you think you can do everything all by yourselves

39:02

without the, you know, advice of

39:05

your colleagues, then you're arrogant. And

39:07

arrogance is very dangerous in this field. So

39:11

coming back to the euthanasia, I can't

39:13

even possibly imagine what that person must

39:15

have felt when a doctor,

39:18

and again, this is an article

39:20

that was written, I don't want to

39:22

get into who and what

39:24

and where. But to

39:27

have a mental health professional

39:33

say that to somebody

39:37

with really

39:40

truly meaning that is saying, you

39:42

don't matter. And

39:45

I couldn't help but remember when, you

39:47

know, when we were those

39:49

of us who have had pets who get sick

39:52

and they're not fixable. How

39:55

many of us, and I've had several,

39:57

how many of us have needed that

39:59

vet to say? say it's time because

40:02

it's so hard to make

40:04

that call because you don't feel comfortable making

40:06

that call because of course it's a loved

40:08

one but at the same time is like do I have

40:10

a right to make this call so we

40:12

rely on medical professionals but when

40:15

it comes to medical health and whether

40:17

or not someone is going something is

40:19

going to survive or not and

40:22

I think that that was the one thing that

40:24

really stuck for me and I

40:27

felt terribly hurt

40:29

for this woman who experienced

40:32

this and again I wasn't there I

40:35

don't know what was said but

40:37

to actually have a healthcare

40:39

professional say yeah you know

40:41

there's no hope for you

40:44

because of your personality and

40:46

there's nothing we can do and even

40:48

if that that provider was

40:50

fed up which some providers can

40:53

be some clients are extremely difficult and

40:55

hard to please and

40:59

you know help rejecters they

41:01

I still

41:06

can't imagine saying that to somebody if

41:08

this is a case in any professional

41:10

relationship with a client you

41:12

very often will talk to

41:14

that client about listen I

41:18

get it you're frustrated I get

41:20

it how can I help you moving

41:22

forward I know someone else who

41:24

also does this maybe you might want to

41:27

you know check in with that person and

41:29

have an intake with that person and see

41:31

how you see how you feel very

41:33

often people will come back or

41:36

they won't maybe they'll like that

41:38

new person you know it's a better fit you

41:40

know it's personality it's chemistry

41:44

but sometimes people come back because if they

41:46

hear that same person telling them the same

41:49

thing then it's like oh

41:51

okay you know but that's just getting

41:53

a second opinion and there is nothing

41:56

wrong With doing that, in fact, I encourage it

41:58

if anyone's on the fence about it. I'm.

42:01

I. Think it's important to always get.

42:03

A second opinion if it's available. So

42:05

I just wanted to say thank you. I'm I'm

42:08

gonna wrap up. I don't want to

42:10

go on and on, but I hopefully

42:12

my points are made clear and. We.

42:14

Love the phone calls. we love the emails,

42:16

we love the tax. We love talking about

42:18

the stuff and. And helping people

42:20

to in a educate them like

42:23

we're. Not. Treating anybody out there

42:25

but on Nino to help with

42:27

the educational peace and to help

42:29

people feel less alone on. You

42:32

know and I believe there is hope

42:34

for. Any. On as

42:37

long as they were one hope

42:39

want help On and thank you

42:41

again for your falling or Instagram

42:43

It means the world to me

42:45

because I'm trying to do something

42:47

for helpless. Animals. And I'm I.

42:49

Really, really. I'm grateful for that. I'm like

42:51

I'm getting choked up right now. Serves. God

42:54

bless you guys! thank you for following and

42:56

listening to us! And we'll talk to

42:58

you next week. Say

43:04

to do is. Thought.

43:09

Was. I'm.

43:12

Alright, so hopefully this

43:14

was. Helpful

43:17

them tactful and resonates with a

43:19

lot of people. Be his Eyes

43:21

is definitely a viable topic and

43:23

something that I know a lot

43:25

of you are experiencing. From

43:28

us both sides of this

43:30

paradigms thugs home until next

43:32

week of feel free to

43:34

reach out to me through

43:36

psychology. Bomb

43:39

plot of us to Psychology today.

43:41

I mean email me directly as

43:43

a calcium plug zola.com Ah, you

43:46

could follow us on Instagram Psychology

43:48

underscore, Unplugged Underscore, and even contact

43:50

me directly. Six One Seven Seven

43:52

Five Zero. Mine for one one.

43:55

East Coast standard time in the

43:57

United States. Until next time to.

44:00

The are we sell to care for each other. Be well

44:02

and I will talk to yes.