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1:58

Queen Charlotte. The Official podcast is a

2:00

production of Shondaland Audio in partnership

2:03

with iHeartRadio.

2:16

Ladies and gentlemen, Welcome to the Final episode

2:19

of our Reflections on Queen Charlotte

2:21

of Bridgeton Story. I

2:23

am your humble and honored host, and

2:25

we're gathered here today for a truly

2:28

noteworthy conversation with two distinguished

2:31

guests. That's why you're here right

2:33

today. We have the immense privilege

2:36

of sharing time with creator Shonda

2:38

Rhymes and executive producer Betsy

2:41

Bears as we reflect

2:43

on this remarkable series. I'm

2:45

filled with gratitude for the opportunity to

2:47

pick the brains of these two brilliant

2:51

minds and to delve deep into their process.

2:54

And I gotta say it was really

2:56

fun to watch them rediscover in real

2:58

time the juice that got them hooked on telling

3:00

this story in the first place. Shonda

3:03

and Betsy, acclaimed producers storytellers

3:06

in their own right, have captivated

3:08

global audiences with their unparalleled

3:11

ability to breathe life into characters

3:13

that are bizarre, royal,

3:16

untouchable in that way, and yet

3:18

firmly planted on earth.

3:22

All right, So here we are. We are

3:24

finally taking your questions to creator

3:27

Shonda Rhymes and executive producer

3:29

Betsy Beers. So without further Ado,

3:32

let's just get right into it

3:34

for me and I think for a lot of fans,

3:36

I am most fascinated by your

3:39

working relationship and how

3:41

that has flourished over the years, changed, Morphed

3:44

became what it is. So I'm really

3:46

curious about how the two of you work together,

3:49

and I know that this project was special

3:52

for a few reasons. Could you tell us

3:54

about that and then if you could really

3:56

paint a picture of what it looks like to

3:58

be working together.

4:00

It's a funny question because at this point we're so used

4:02

to working together by also

4:04

not working together, if that.

4:06

Makes any sense, that totally makes sense.

4:08

You know, we get together and we discuss projects.

4:11

In the writing process, I'm always talking to Betsy about

4:13

what I'm thinking or what I'm considering,

4:15

or how it's going to work. And at the same time,

4:17

Betsy's sort of working

4:20

to make sure production is prepped the way it needs

4:22

to be prepped and understands the vision

4:24

that I'm trying to put out there. A job that

4:26

gets easier I think for all of us because of Tom,

4:28

since Tom's also part of our permanent little

4:30

group now, which is really nice. But

4:33

you know, usually I'm writing and either telling

4:35

Betsy it's terrible or sending her pages and telling or

4:37

I think it's great, and her telling me what she thinks, and

4:39

then when there's a script, we sort of hit

4:41

the road, tyking about production and stuff. And

4:44

at this point I don't have to say

4:46

to Betsy, here's the vision that I

4:48

have for a Queen Charlotte, because Betsy

4:50

already has that vision too. We've worked

4:52

together for so long that we

4:54

just see things the same way, now, don't you think,

4:56

Betsy.

4:57

I know I totally agree with that. And eight

5:00

thing is we're sounding boards

5:02

for each other, and especially what I like to feel like

5:04

is we have conversations about stuff

5:06

or what's interesting about stuff, or we'll

5:09

start with like, I think this point is interesting,

5:11

and her big brain will like spew

5:13

out some amazing sort

5:15

of what ifs, and then

5:18

we can start with the what ifs and

5:21

push them in lots of different directions. And one

5:23

of the things I love to do, and I've

5:25

done my whole life in this job, is I'll

5:28

drive in four billion directions

5:30

just for the hell of it. And then it's

5:32

a little bit like a buffet. You can you

5:35

can kind of pitch with every directly. But I don't

5:37

really have to do that with Seanda anymore because we've

5:40

been doing it for so long. She

5:42

always hits the ground running, and with

5:44

this project especially, I

5:46

knew what it was. She knew exactly

5:48

what it was, and the first conversation

5:51

we had she said, this is what I feel

5:54

this is, and that's what it was. Yeah,

5:56

I mean I think it went through less quote unquote

5:58

development. I'm making those little annoying quote

6:00

sounds with my fingers so anybody knows what

6:02

I'm doing. But there was no

6:05

real development of this.

6:07

This was, I would say,

6:09

like the unfurling of your brain.

6:12

And it had been like it had been sitting in there for a while

6:14

or something.

6:14

Yes, it happened, But I have to say you also,

6:17

you very often percolate without

6:19

percolating.

6:20

Yes, that's very true.

6:21

Wait what do you mean. Well, it's like I

6:24

say, it's like coffee. It's like in the back of her

6:26

head something. The grounds are in

6:28

there, you put the water in, and it's just sort of percolating

6:30

back there.

6:31

Like ideas just are sort of building, right.

6:33

They're just sort of building. And sometimes we'll talk

6:35

about a bunch of different things just randomly, because

6:39

she's my favorite person to call and go like, did you just

6:41

read this thing, it really annoyed me? Or do

6:43

you know what's amazing about life?

6:47

And then somehow or another, she's

6:49

already formed some sort of story

6:52

in her head that speaks to all the questions

6:54

I had. True,

6:57

it's kind of like magic, except really

6:59

hard work.

7:01

The hard thing about is working together for so long is

7:03

that we can no longer explain how we work together.

7:06

It's true, that was the biggest load

7:08

of garbage that just come out of my mouth.

7:10

But it's so hard to talk about because

7:12

it's so it's literally the way

7:14

we've been living life for twenty years now, so it's

7:16

very hard to describe to somebody

7:18

what breathing feels like.

7:20

It's true. And my favorite moment sometimes

7:23

is there have been points. Do you remember if there

7:25

was one point long time ago where we were in a meeting

7:27

and it was a it was an incredibly

7:29

tortured, not particularly

7:31

productive meeting in which there was an executive

7:34

spewing things. Yes, that, and

7:37

there was a moment she looked at me and she said, can you

7:39

translate?

7:40

Right?

7:40

I looked at it. I was like, what are they saying? They're not talking

7:42

creatively?

7:43

It said alot of blat of blue quietly,

7:45

and she was like, Okay, this makes absolutely

7:48

no sense. But so there's a certain amount

7:50

of translation, but even more so at this

7:52

point, we'll just like each other and go She'll go, do you know the

7:54

thing that happened at the time when we did that

7:56

thing? And I'll go, yeah, I don't, Yeah, I totally do.

7:58

Yeah.

7:59

Any long term relationship that you're really

8:01

close, where you've been through

8:03

a lot of experiences, I think probably

8:06

you'd talk to anybody who'd say, yeah,

8:08

I'm one of the things I value most is the closest

8:11

not to have to talk.

8:13

Yes, yeah, Yeah,

8:16

it's funny. I was just saying to my

8:18

dad. Sometimes you just can be in a room with

8:20

someone and not say anything exactly

8:23

and not necessarily like the Violet and Danbury

8:25

moment. But you know, so

8:29

you mentioned what ifs. I'm wondering

8:32

if there were any particular what

8:34

ifs that blew your mind, Betsy

8:37

for this particular project. Was there a what

8:39

if early on that that

8:42

sent you in forty eight billion directions?

8:44

I think with this project specifically,

8:47

there are fewer what ifs that I

8:49

was coming up with, because with

8:52

this project so much was already in her head,

8:54

you know, I think sometimes

8:56

we'll be dealing just sort of with a world and

8:59

well place more of a what iflick, what

9:01

if you actually dug into this particular character.

9:03

We talked about this thing which is bothering. I always start,

9:05

and I think Shawna does too, with what am I feeling or how

9:08

am I thinking? Or what's in

9:10

my brain? But I don't think there was as much

9:12

of that with this because it was

9:14

something that emerged, I think fully grown from

9:16

her brain.

9:17

There was something about watching Golda play

9:20

Queen Charlotte that made me begin

9:22

to imagine a world in which that

9:24

character started out and began her journey.

9:27

One of the questions that we received

9:30

was if Shanda you actually

9:33

when you are percolating, are you journaling

9:35

and writing or do you have post it notes everywhere?

9:38

Or do you just talk out loud? What

9:41

does that look like for you?

9:42

Yeah, none of the above. I'm not journaling or

9:44

writing, or putting post it notes or talking out loud

9:47

generally. When Betsy means like something's

9:49

percolating in the back of my brain, for real, I'll

9:52

be going about my whole daily life doing something completely

9:54

different. Sometimes I'm even writing another project

9:56

or working in another project. But the story idea

9:59

for something is in the back of my brain and

10:01

then one day I wake up and I'm like, oh, okay, I'm ready

10:03

to write it down now. And when I write it down,

10:06

it's pretty much fully formed. Like I'm not a

10:08

person who turned through

10:10

drafts and like is

10:12

pained in that way.

10:13

It's pained.

10:15

Yeah, no, but you know, like writing is. It can be a painful

10:18

process, but I'm not. I don't have that process.

10:20

I either know what I'm writing or I don't, and if

10:22

I don't, then I'm not writing it yet. It's

10:24

still purklating.

10:25

That's exactly right. It's it's nothing

10:28

you see. It's just back

10:30

there. And you know, when the

10:32

bread's baked, it comes out of the oven, so it's

10:35

but it's I think I'm going to use a lot of

10:37

cooking metaphors, but I

10:40

do. I think it's it's funny

10:42

because we always sort of say, like when something

10:44

going to be ready. It's like, well, it's not ready till it's

10:47

ready, and when it's ready, it'll come out

10:49

and it will be what you see on

10:51

film. And to be honest, that was true with The

10:53

Gray's Anatomy, and that's true with this.

10:55

A lot of writers, I think, write and then

10:57

they put a draft out and then you have to get notes, and

10:59

there's a lot of feedback and a lot of changes and a

11:01

lot of molding, And I

11:03

think I do all that in my head, and

11:06

then whatever we end up turning

11:08

out as a page is usually what we end up

11:10

shooting.

11:11

Yeah, I mean ninety nine point nine percent of the time.

11:13

Yeah, that makes me think about some

11:16

of the things that are that become

11:18

what ifsen what happened for

11:21

the audience, Like my first

11:24

time through watching, I

11:27

kept hinging myself onto this idea

11:29

of the great experiment, and I felt like

11:32

there was enough room for the

11:34

audience for myself to just wonder exactly

11:36

what you all were getting at

11:38

with some of the ideas and concepts that emerged

11:41

in Queen Charlotte. And I'm wondering if you

11:44

actually birth it that way

11:46

where it may not seem

11:49

like a complete or like there

11:51

is more to be unpacked, but you

11:53

don't even know yet

11:56

what that is is. No, doesn't work,

11:58

No, So you know, like every like

12:00

the she knows you

12:03

you know, I don't know.

12:04

How to explain it, but you just know, and then you write

12:06

it down I wish, I wish that there was a

12:08

way to bottle it, because then I could do it much easier.

12:10

But you do, you know, and then you write it down,

12:12

So some of these things, you know. The Great Experiment was something

12:14

that I started talking about from the beginning in terms

12:16

of how we were going to build this world and

12:18

tell the story.

12:19

And I think also it was connected to something that

12:22

was you know in the Bridgerton universe,

12:25

was something that you felt incredibly strongly

12:27

about, Shonda, and really wanted wanted

12:31

to create your own articulation of

12:33

that.

12:33

Right because it's given one line. It's given like

12:35

one line or two lines in the Bridgerton

12:37

story. You know, their love united nation,

12:40

and that's great, But I was like, I need

12:42

there to be a world that works

12:44

with this inside the Bridge reverse for this to

12:46

work.

12:47

One of the really nice things I

12:49

heard from the cast was being

12:51

dropped into this world

12:53

where everybody works differently, and

12:55

so there's so much to glean and there's

12:58

so much to share. It

13:00

sounds like a really great thing. But

13:03

there's something that you just said too that

13:05

makes me think of one of these questions. If you know

13:07

everything going into

13:10

putting out this work, you then know

13:12

the answer to what happened to Reynolds.

13:15

Of course I didn't.

13:17

Everybody wants to know I

13:19

know what happened to Reynolds.

13:21

And I'm not ready to tell anybody what that answer

13:24

is.

13:24

Perhaps this is good, perhaps

13:29

perhaps.

13:29

It is bad.

13:33

I told a complete story. I

13:35

left you with some questions. I think those

13:38

questions are vital and important. But I'm not telling the

13:40

answers yet.

13:40

We won't know what happened to Reynolds.

13:42

We no, no, And you know. For me,

13:45

I feel like, if you watched it correctly,

13:48

you do know what happened. It's

13:50

very interesting. Like to me, it's

13:53

very obvious what happened. There's such a powerful

13:55

moment where you understand Brimsley explains

13:57

it all. I'm fascinated by

14:00

people thinking that he died, which

14:02

is not true, or that there's

14:04

something like Brimsley explains what happened.

14:06

And if you watched it correctly,

14:09

that's okay.

14:11

That's not that's not a fair sentence. Okay, you

14:13

watched it correctly. It is not a fair sentence.

14:15

Was that was a tiny bit judgy?

14:18

Yeah, it's judge. So it's true. There's no incorrect

14:20

way to watch You're so right, there's no incorrect way to watch,

14:22

you know, what it is in my mind, Like I

14:25

was, I'm on a very straight path. So to

14:27

me, A plus B makes C plusy

14:30

and so I'm always amazed when people truly

14:33

like and I kind of love it. It's part of the creative process.

14:35

Take like they say, A plus B equals

14:38

Q and they see a completely different world

14:40

around, which sometimes is fascinating

14:42

to me. And I'm able to take it in creatively

14:44

and build on it. And sometimes I'm like, that doesn't make

14:46

any sense to what I was thinking at all. So that's

14:49

the beauty of it. I also have this thing where I truly

14:51

believe that what I write and

14:53

what I intend and the way it's received can

14:56

be two different things. And that's okay.

14:57

I was just going to ask you both if

14:59

that is okay.

15:01

Oh yeah, Patsy.

15:02

The last time I've spoke with you, you said, you know, you

15:04

put the thing out. You put it out, It's out, And

15:07

that is a skill in itself to be as

15:09

a producer, to just let

15:11

it go, let it breathe on its own.

15:13

Oh, it doesn't belong to you anymore. That's

15:16

the thing is, it's it's

15:17

you cleave it to your bosom,

15:20

you know, for four billion years,

15:22

and then you you craft

15:24

it and love it to the best that you can, and

15:27

then you put it out into the world, and then

15:29

you're onto something else

15:32

too that you want to That's

15:34

another story you want to tell.

15:35

My oldest sister called me up and yelled at me for about

15:37

twenty minutes about the fact that I didn't explain

15:40

what happened to Reynolds, so

15:42

seriously. Yeah, and she was so angry. She

15:45

wants to know and I wasn't telling her,

15:47

and she's not pleased with

15:49

me right now. But that's okay.

15:51

Hey, that's the breaks.

15:53

Yeah, we'll be right back

15:55

with more insights about Queen Charlotte.

15:57

A bridgeton story from executive producer

15:59

but Sup Beers and creator Shonda Rhymes.

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19:12

Hi, it's Betsy Beers. You're listening to

19:15

Queen Charlotte, A Bridgerton Story,

19:18

the official podcast Let's go into the

19:20

steep dive.

19:21

So I love to

19:23

know when I'm wrong about things.

19:27

Cyrus is my all time favorite character, but one

19:29

of my absolute favorites is Eli

19:31

Pope from Scandal and Too.

19:34

I tried to connect the dots to him

19:37

across the body of work of Shondaland

19:39

all the time I felt like

19:41

there was a little of Eli talking

19:43

to live when I heard Lord

19:45

Danburry talking to Agatha and maybe

19:48

it was a stretch, but I was

19:50

wondering, Shonda, where

19:53

that voice comes from.

19:55

So here's what's fascinating to me. Eli

19:57

speaks from the pain of the existence

20:00

of being a powerful man who is invisible

20:02

to me. The person

20:04

who actually holds his voice

20:07

the most is Lady Danberry is Agatha.

20:09

Agatha speaks of the pain

20:11

of being a powerful, invisible person

20:14

who is not seen. And

20:16

herman, her husband, who is a very

20:18

sweet, complex, difficult

20:21

man who she has great affection

20:24

and sympathy for no matter what, is in

20:26

a lot of ways, her damsel in distress that she

20:28

is rescuing. I mean, you have to really see it

20:30

that way. Papa Pope and Agatha Danberry,

20:33

they stand in the same place in power. Poor

20:35

Hermann has had a chance.

20:37

I see that now.

20:39

I see that, and I hear that now I

20:41

think I was taking it at face

20:44

value.

20:45

Maybe there's almost nothing that Hermann

20:47

says. You have to remember that she's the puppet master

20:49

of everything good that happens to him, Oh my goodness,

20:52

and she very quietly allows him

20:54

to pretend that he

20:57

has more power than he does because she

20:59

understands how painful his life has been.

21:01

Cyril spoke about that too.

21:03

He said that he poured

21:06

the parts of himself that understood

21:09

being marginalized

21:12

and still needing

21:14

to be tender to those around him

21:16

and not having the time or space to

21:19

do that. And I guess maybe That's

21:21

what I was connecting, Like,

21:24

that's interesting. When Eli

21:27

was calling Olivia concubine,

21:29

I was like, yes, that is the thing.

21:32

He was calling it as he saw her behavior,

21:34

which is different than treating

21:37

her a certain way. Do you see the difference, Like

21:39

he's expecting her to be an empowered, three

21:41

dimensional woman. Okay,

21:45

herman's not expecting that. Herman believes

21:47

that Agatha is nothing more than a quiet

21:50

little wife. I mean, there

21:52

was a lot of talk about like the sex scenes,

21:54

for instance, and I was

21:57

like, she's People were like, it's assault,

21:59

and I was like, it's not assault. It's a

22:01

man who'se a never considered the idea that a woman

22:04

could ever enjoy herself sexually, because

22:06

that's not a definition of sex for a man.

22:08

But b it's never incurred to Agatha

22:10

either, because this is the only man she's ever known.

22:13

She's bored out of her mind, So you know those scenes

22:15

where she seems to be like making lists and thinking while

22:17

they're in bed together, She's bored out of her

22:19

mind. She finds it boring. And I kind of felt

22:21

like if every woman who really was bored

22:24

and sort of over having sex with her husband

22:26

called it assault, we'd be in a whole different world right

22:28

now, Like that's what that is. She's

22:30

in a long term, sort

22:32

of very boring, dead

22:35

marriage where she's never been awakened to anything.

22:37

Her garden has never bloomed as we've.

22:39

Said, like hello, hello, garden.

22:41

But she feels a great deal of affection for

22:43

him because she sees

22:46

how badly he is treated

22:48

by the world and how invisible he is. So

22:50

he thinks he has power, but.

22:51

He does not, and she sees how hard

22:53

he takes it because it feels to me

22:56

like he's a man constantly who's being disappointed.

22:59

Yes, spends so much time

23:01

trying to mitigate that

23:03

disappointment. And that's a huge part of

23:05

what she does. And that's

23:08

the thing that I think is so amazing

23:10

about that relationship is.

23:13

She takes care of him as best she can.

23:15

And she also understands, as she gets

23:17

more into the politics

23:20

of this show, the deprivation that

23:24

has existed for him.

23:26

There will be no ball trust and

23:29

angle Joy in front of me. Never let

23:32

me grasp it.

23:43

You are every bit as

23:45

good as they are.

23:56

You have to understand that all the women

23:59

are women who use society's

24:02

belief about who they should be and the positions

24:04

they should occupy. They use those

24:06

positions and those beliefs against

24:08

the people to their own advantage. They're

24:10

demanding of

24:13

the dowager princess, like who is George's

24:15

new doctor? And she says, I do not remember names. I'm female,

24:17

and they I'll go of course, which is she

24:19

says it because that's what they believe, and if

24:21

they're stupid enough to believe it, she's going to work it to her advantage.

24:24

To me, these are the women using the tools

24:27

they have around them to their best advantages.

24:29

Princess Augusta is one of my favorite

24:32

characters for that reason, and

24:34

me too, Oh my goodness, Betsy. And I

24:37

think I would say top three

24:40

scenes for me is the pair brandy scene.

24:42

I think anyone who I've spoken

24:44

with knows that is one of my favorite

24:46

scenes. And I

24:49

don't remember if I asked you, Betsy,

24:52

but I'm gonna ask you now. Did

24:55

you ever have a pair brandy moment with

24:57

anyone early in your career?

24:59

Over so later?

25:01

Yeah?

25:01

Did someone for you the fair brand?

25:03

Betsy? I'm not sure that there

25:05

was that much bytuperation, but

25:07

in terms of being in a situation where

25:09

I needed to be a more worthy adversary.

25:12

Yeah. I mean I would say that there have been moments

25:14

definitely with the

25:17

people that I would call probably the politicians

25:19

of our job, but usually it

25:21

was you take the gloves off and you

25:23

sit there for a second, then you put the gloves back one

25:27

as opposed to I don't

25:29

tend to have total meltdowns under those

25:32

situations. Yeah.

25:36

Very different from Lady Danberry.

25:38

Because and she had no one else

25:40

to go to. I don't think I've ever had that sense of total

25:42

full isolation that that character has,

25:44

which is one of the things I love about that scene.

25:47

The other thing I love about that scene is how quickly

25:49

Agatha is able to pull herself back together

25:51

again. But the combination

25:54

of I don't want to lose

25:56

my adversary from Augusta,

25:58

but also that

26:00

is the way that she can show her

26:03

feelings towards her, and she can't show her feelings

26:05

towards her by saying, you know what, I'm so glad

26:07

you're in this world because you go get them girlfriend.

26:10

She has to say that's

26:13

not the same veneration. But she has gigantic commence

26:15

of admiration for her, and I

26:17

would say Unfortunately, in a lot of these situations

26:20

I've been in, I have not had it as much

26:22

admiration as I've had

26:25

and it doesn't happen a lot. But to your point, I think

26:27

occasionally a situation pops

26:29

up where it's politics

26:31

and you handle it. This is more long

26:33

waited way of saying not exactly like this,

26:36

No, but I know what it's like to sit across the table and

26:38

bargain with a smile

26:41

and a drink.

26:41

Ha ha.

26:44

Yeah.

26:44

I of course have glamorized

26:47

that in my mind, and I wonder

26:49

the same for you, Shonda, who poured prayer

26:51

brandy for you early

26:53

in your career, if you had a moment got that.

26:57

I don't know that I've ever had a moment like that, but I

26:59

think I not in And I want to say this

27:01

correctly because you know I love

27:03

her. I was raised by a Princess

27:05

Augusta in the best possible way, meaning

27:07

that I feel like I was raised at the feet of

27:09

somebody who would pour

27:12

somebody the prayer brandy and say get it together.

27:15

So having been raised by a woman like that

27:17

who had those expectations, you

27:19

know I have great admiration for Princess Augusta

27:21

and what she's trying to accomplish here for herself,

27:24

and what she's accomplished given

27:26

the world that she's you know, stuck in. And

27:28

that's one of my favorite scenes that I've written. And what made

27:30

it so great was to get to write something like that

27:33

and then to get the footage back and

27:35

see the astonishingly amazing

27:37

performances those actors gave. It's really

27:39

exciting when that happens when you write something. I

27:41

mean, because I'm not on set, I write something,

27:44

I send it off Tom's there, and

27:46

to have it come back and be more than what

27:48

you dreamed is so fantastic.

27:51

I think. Actually, that's why that's such a hard question to

27:53

answer, is because there's so many layers

27:55

to that scene. Yeah, because I can say,

27:57

have I ever sat across the table from theoretically

27:59

Ansari? Have I ever set

28:02

across the table from somebody where

28:04

I showed my vulnerability and they said keep it?

28:06

Every single thing is in that scene. I

28:08

mean, that scene has every single stage

28:11

of a relationship, a friendship, an adversarial

28:14

relationship. It's like so it's almost

28:16

like, have I ever Yeah, I've had all of those

28:18

moments. What's incredible to me, is

28:21

not one scene.

28:22

No, right, it's never in one scene.

28:24

What someone like that.

28:25

I mean, it's really cool to have

28:27

this this scene between the two of them,

28:29

because you're right. I love that, Betsy said. It

28:31

shows her affection for Agatha

28:34

and her respect, and honestly, for me, what

28:36

was important was the concept that they were

28:39

in that moment. She was making absolutely clear

28:41

that this is the only equals she's got right now.

28:44

You know, She's like, don't you fall down on the job,

28:46

because if you do, then I'm alone.

28:47

Exactly.

28:48

If you're still standing, then I'm still standing.

28:50

If you're down, then I have nothing. And

28:52

I thought that was really powerful and important.

28:57

So I'm going to jump to a quick question

28:59

from fans audience

29:02

about parenting. Charif

29:05

at Sharif Underscores Scott Underscore

29:07

on Instagram asks and

29:10

that's my baby. Does Lady Danberry

29:12

love her children?

29:14

Yes, Lady Danberry absolutely loves

29:16

her children. I think Lady Danberry loves her children

29:18

the way women of that era often

29:20

love their children, which is somebody else raises

29:22

your children. Their children are absolutely being

29:25

raised by somebody else until they're useful or interesting.

29:27

I mean that is flat out, literally

29:30

just how it was done. So

29:32

if we're living in that world. I mean, it's funny

29:35

because the actress, you know, Arsma,

29:37

came to me a lot and said like she

29:40

a good mother, and I was like, she's a fantastic mother.

29:42

She's hired the best nanny governess she can find,

29:45

and she's they're fed and clean and no one beats

29:47

them, and she treats them, you

29:49

know, make sure they have fresh air and sunshine.

29:51

But the reality of it is is even when you

29:53

read all those books about regency period and Georgian

29:55

period, the concept of motherhood as

29:57

we know it is a very modern concept.

30:00

It's a very modern concept, this idea.

30:03

If you're walking around carrying a baby on your hip,

30:05

you are a servant in that period in time

30:08

period. I'm a servant right now,

30:11

we are. I know, we're all sor.

30:13

I was just about to say that you took the words adam

30:16

children. I think part of the issue here is

30:18

because people are so immersed in the world

30:20

of Violet Bridgerton. Yes, there's this weird

30:23

sort of expectation that socially that was

30:25

the norm and the whole point of Violet Bridgerton.

30:27

The whole point of Bridgerton's is their family is

30:29

slowly abnormal. The kids sit at dinner, they

30:32

talk to the children. She likes her family,

30:34

they hang out.

30:35

She wants them to get married for love, right.

30:36

I mean that that is the opposite of how

30:39

any child was raised back then. Violet is

30:43

a very different kind of mother because

30:45

she was happy, but also because she had her

30:47

husband let her do what she wanted. There's no way you could

30:49

be but like a lady in waiting to the queen,

30:51

and what are you running around playing

30:53

paddycake with your children? It just wasn't done,

30:57

you know. It's why one of the reasons I

30:59

made very clear that when Queen Charlotte

31:01

had her child, we see the baby,

31:04

we know that she spent time with the baby, but that's

31:06

it. Like there's no babies running around, and

31:08

when you see these surly adults, you're like, how did

31:10

they get that way? That to me was

31:12

very interesting.

31:14

Yeah, oh and I guess that.

31:17

Yeah, that scene we

31:19

see a quick, quick, maybe fifteen

31:21

seconds of Violet with her

31:23

grand babies and that

31:26

yeah.

31:26

See Violet, Yeah, Violet is a very different kind

31:28

of mother. Yeah, Violet is on the floor playing

31:30

with her grandbabies. That brings her joy.

31:33

I don't think you'd ever see Agatha Danburg on

31:35

the floor playing with her grandbabies, and not because she doesn't

31:37

love her children, but because culturally, for

31:39

all of them in that period of time, that is not what

31:42

you do. No, Lady

31:44

Featherington wasn't around playing with her grand babies

31:46

like It's just Violet's mother wasn't

31:48

playing with her babies, Like, that's not how that works.

31:50

That's so interesting.

31:54

I asked Ker if he felt who

31:56

played Lord Ledger,

31:59

if he felt like his

32:01

character helped our audiences

32:04

understand the way Violet loves

32:06

and the way Violet led

32:08

her family later on, and he

32:11

he felt very much. So would you say

32:14

that was intentional?

32:16

No?

32:16

I purposely wrote him to be this

32:18

man. I mean he calls her brains and beauty like

32:20

I wrote this man because how

32:23

do you turn out to be a woman like Violet? How

32:25

do you turn out to be a woman like Violet who can recognize

32:27

love and a man like Edmund and have

32:29

that life. Violet had to have a spectacular

32:32

father, especially considering that I needed her to have

32:35

a not so spectacular mother. I very

32:37

much wanted you to understand that

32:39

she knew what that kind of love

32:41

was, and that's why she treats her children the way she does.

32:44

And I think she also picks up on the fact

32:46

that her mother and father

32:48

are very, very, very different. So focusing

32:51

on, yes, this little

32:53

bit of longing in her father, I

32:56

think also contributes

32:59

to her desire to find real love.

33:01

That's a beautiful way to put it.

33:03

She sees his loneliness, then I think

33:05

she both gets what is it like to be loved

33:07

by a wonderful man, but why

33:11

it's so important to have a real partner

33:14

as opposed to somebody who you're making

33:16

excuses for, which is what I always

33:18

sort of feel like with the two of them, is he's

33:21

always sort of going like, yeah, that's your mom,

33:23

and yet that's your mom.

33:25

Yet I have so much compassion for Lady

33:27

Ledger because when I write, I have to have passion

33:29

everybody, But I have the compassion for

33:31

Lady Ledger because if you look at it,

33:33

she's in a house with a team of two. They

33:36

are a team, and she is on

33:38

the outside, and everything that she believes

33:41

they treat as if she is wrong and bad,

33:44

and really all she's doing is standing in tradition.

33:46

She's behaving in all the traditional ways, and

33:49

they treat her as if she is a

33:51

joke, and that has got

33:54

to be difficult for her.

33:55

I feel like that is so ripe

33:59

for right now

34:01

in so many facets of life and

34:04

politics, and that is

34:07

fascinating.

34:09

Yeah.

34:09

And Katie Braben, who plays Lady Leger,

34:12

was she just man?

34:13

Did she deliver?

34:15

Oh?

34:15

She's wonder Yeah.

34:18

Violent. The Lady does not stretch

34:20

her neck like a draw. I want to see the Queen.

34:22

The Queen has not yet made appearance.

34:25

She behaves like a street urchin.

34:28

She will humiliate us.

34:29

She is perfect.

34:30

She will bring us nothing but accolades.

34:33

I told you she's not yet ready to

34:35

be out in society.

34:36

She is more than ready.

34:38

Betsy.

34:39

Can you talk a little about casting

34:42

Katie for that role and your affinity

34:45

for that character and what that character represents too.

34:47

You know, I don't remember that being one of those characters

34:50

where we saw tapes and tapes and tapes and taps and taps.

34:52

I just remember that we all saw her and she

34:55

had this absolutely perfect combination of

34:59

there's a warmth there. Yeah, she's got real

35:01

depth. She doesn't feel

35:03

she never felt when she read like

35:05

she was playing at archly or

35:08

over emphasizing. She

35:11

gave her humanity, right, she gave a humanity

35:13

and I could see her also. I mean

35:16

one of the things obviously that was important is

35:18

as we're casting these people who are younger and

35:20

younger versions, you want to believe the bloodline.

35:23

So it's Violet came

35:26

out of that person and

35:28

that face and that so there was always a

35:30

physicality to it, which was key. So she

35:32

had this incredible combination of being looking

35:34

like she could be Violet Bridgerton's mom

35:38

and also just being

35:40

a lovely mannered, excellent

35:43

actress.

35:44

She had a three dimensionality to her. She was able to

35:46

make that that's it not hateful.

35:50

I mean, you know what I mean. You don't have to like her, but

35:52

I could see who she was when she was eighteen

35:54

and she got married, Like you can see who she was and

35:56

how she became who she is. Well, she's certainly

35:59

never been allowed to do that much thinking like

36:01

it's very stressful for her to be out thought like that

36:03

doesn't make up what's this girl doing? Yeah? Yeah,

36:06

I love the moment in the end when they're at the

36:08

ball and Violet's like, there's

36:10

lady, tell me hello, Lady Danberry. And

36:13

her mother's like she she'll ruin us,

36:15

and the father's like she won't. But you

36:18

understand this woman's fear because all she

36:20

has, like all the other mamas on the marriage mark,

36:23

is the ability to get her daughter married to have social

36:25

success. And if this child turns out that's what she

36:27

did, right, If it's childhood in all

36:29

these untraditional ways that her father's supporting, she

36:31

cannot imagine they're being social success.

36:33

Oh my god, that's true. Right,

36:36

you'll have Eloise on your hand, yea.

36:38

Right, She's like, this is a terrible idea. I'm gonna have a spinster

36:40

for a daughter. This is a nightmare, oh Elise.

36:43

Yeah.

36:45

So why do you think both Charlotte

36:48

and Lady Danburry were

36:51

cold towards their children

36:53

in later life? Would you even say

36:55

they were cold? Now?

36:57

I don't. I don't say they were cold. For me,

37:00

if we're going to talk about motherhood, let's talk for a minute

37:02

about Queen Charlotte, because for

37:04

me, those moments when her children are like,

37:07

you know, you are terrible, and she just can't

37:10

even make herself explain

37:12

why she was a good mother because

37:14

her job, her whole job

37:17

is to make sure that this line continues.

37:19

Like that is her job. And

37:22

she's had all these children, and she's raised them

37:24

all, and she's put them all in the perfect positions,

37:26

and she's even indulged them for years obviously

37:28

because they're all dating whoors and actresses.

37:31

She's even indulged them all and all

37:33

she needs from there's one thing. And she's

37:35

tried to let them be their own people, but they failed

37:38

miserably. And so to have them tell her that she's

37:40

a horrible mother, I felt was such a

37:42

hurtful moment for her, But it's also not

37:45

untrue because you have that moment when

37:47

Brimsley says to her, we've all only ever

37:49

served one person, like she's

37:52

solely served the king and the kingdom and what's

37:54

necessary for that, which means you can't necessarily

37:56

be a mommy when you're

37:58

doing all those things. So to her, she's

38:00

been an excellent mother. She's had fifteen babies, she's

38:02

lost two, she's allowed them to live their lives, she's

38:04

given them everything they've ever desired. All she's asking is

38:07

one stupid thing. And to them,

38:09

you know, they're busy yelling at her for

38:12

holding.

38:12

Up a nation I felt the children

38:15

and you can tell me if I'm wrong, Betsy too, if

38:18

that, they were like, but but mama

38:20

queen, you're centering yourselves.

38:22

In our life.

38:23

And I felt like that was such a

38:26

theme for talking about

38:29

adult child parent relationships

38:31

as well, whether that's a

38:33

blood parent child relationship

38:36

or if it's someone that you work

38:38

with who is like who you revere

38:40

or something like that.

38:41

But wait, does she have an option other than

38:44

to center herself. I mean, she's

38:47

not just herself, she's England, she's

38:49

the future of the royal crown. Like,

38:53

what are they whining about?

38:54

I know exactly what you mean. But when you look at

38:56

what you do so brilliantly,

38:58

is you always see both sides the coin. What

39:01

I loved about it is it's not

39:03

just the crown. You gave everything up to that man,

39:06

so it's not just to our

39:08

father, who they have no relationship

39:11

with to to a large degree, who they haven't seen.

39:13

So really, it's a little bit like talking about

39:16

Lady Ledger and Lord Ledger and whose

39:18

side are you on? Because this

39:21

whole show is about the

39:23

choices that you have to make that are heartbreaking

39:25

in your life and what you give up and what you

39:27

choose, and part of becoming

39:29

an adult is by making those choices standing

39:31

by them. But what her kids are saying

39:34

to me and Brimsey's saying is Brimsley's

39:36

different.

39:36

Brimsley's also sacrificed.

39:38

He's sacrificed, but in Brimsey's

39:41

eyes, because Brimsley remembers what came first.

39:43

You did it

39:46

for the world. But it's

39:48

that last scene under the bed. The whole world

39:50

revolves around him.

39:51

That's amazing what you've just said, because basically you're

39:54

saying a thing that I thought about passing,

39:56

but I don't think I ever really articulated in

39:58

my head at all, which is this idea

40:01

that she has

40:03

a spectacularly magical

40:05

relationship with a man they'll

40:08

never know.

40:08

That's it.

40:09

They've never known, and they probably will never

40:11

know. Somebody was a memory of their childhood,

40:13

who probably was insane for much of it, who

40:17

for a long time has lived apart from them. So

40:19

to them, she's revered, spent her life

40:21

revering this figure

40:23

that is the King that they don't have a relationship

40:26

with, you know, So they're orphans. That ahead of them,

40:28

So they're orphans. You're right, that's been her

40:30

most important relationship and to her, he needs

40:32

her more. Ooh, that I'm very clear on

40:35

in her mind, he needs her more. Yeah,

40:37

And that was the deal. That was the

40:39

deal. She said, I will stand with you between

40:41

the heavens and the earth. I will tell you who you are.

40:43

Yeah, half a George, half of like half.

40:46

It will behold together, will behold together.

40:48

I mean that doesn't have le room for a

40:50

lot.

40:51

No.

40:52

And that's the thing, And that's why it's so relatable,

40:55

just in terms of life and choices, which

40:57

is something always gets lost in

40:59

this sh something always gets sacrificed,

41:01

somebody is always disappointed.

41:04

Yes, there are no bad mothers.

41:06

There's just incredibly difficult choices.

41:08

Yes, well put And it's like the older

41:10

you get and the way I look at my

41:12

mother and Seanda knows every story in the world

41:16

about her, and she was a

41:18

situation, but she was an incredibly

41:20

strong and interesting woman. And the

41:22

older I got, the more I started

41:24

to appreciate a horrible series of choices

41:27

she had to make you know exactly what you're saying.

41:29

So my takeaway from this always

41:31

is and why I cry at the end of that

41:34

episode every single time I see that darn

41:36

bedscene. Is it's

41:38

worth it for that one moment and

41:41

then you go back to what you're doing. But

41:44

I guess it's worth it for that one moment. But what

41:47

are you missing?

41:48

But I love that moment when she looks up at her daughter

41:50

and she says, you've lost babies And it's never occurred

41:52

to her, Oh, exactly, nobody's ever

41:54

shared it with her. It's never occurred to her

41:57

like that has

41:59

not been something she's been in any way, shape or

42:01

form.

42:02

Well, and as you said, nobody's ever shared

42:04

it with her. So the whole thing

42:06

is you created. It's so interesting

42:08

you said that, because you created a situation.

42:11

She's in a situation where where

42:13

no one will tell her anything anyway, So

42:15

it's almost like this self fulfilling prophecy.

42:18

And she doesn't really want to know because she's

42:20

busy, but maybe she did

42:23

want to know, you know.

42:24

Would she have been a different mother?

42:25

But she had been a different mother. So it's always

42:27

that sliding doors of I created a situation

42:30

which nobody could tell me what was really going

42:32

on because they knew that my single

42:34

mindedness was directing me. Here. What did

42:36

I miss?

42:37

Do?

42:37

I think she thinks about that much. No, because

42:40

she's a practical,

42:44

forward thinking human. But I

42:47

but that is. Yeah, it's

42:49

so incredibly

42:52

relatable and moving.

42:53

It's what's lost in the pursuit of greatness.

42:55

Yeah, that's it. That's exactly it.

42:57

So this talk of sacrifice

43:00

and it all being worth it, and

43:03

that last scene also makes

43:05

me think about all the people who asked about Brimsley

43:07

and Reynolds. What's the moment

43:09

for Brimsley that makes it all worth it?

43:12

Is this something we have yet to see or are

43:15

did we not see it in we

43:17

Well.

43:17

Let's be clear, I don't know if that moment.

43:19

I mean that seems very clear. She said that moment makes it

43:22

all feel worth it, and then she's back in her life again.

43:24

So is there a moment that truly makes it all

43:26

feel worth that?

43:27

She?

43:27

To me the heartbreaking thing. The reason I cry

43:30

at the end of this the episode

43:32

when we see them under the bed together, is because that's

43:35

what she gets. She's had a

43:37

lifetime and all she gets are these little,

43:39

tidy moments under the bed together where she can hope

43:41

to see glimpses of the George that she

43:44

loved. You know, that's opening a door and getting a

43:46

peek and having the door closed in your face. I

43:48

don't know that that makes anything all worth them. And

43:52

I think that this is a story about

43:55

what happens in the pursuit of greatness. They are all serving

43:57

the king. The idea that Brimsley's in

43:59

a world in which that is what the

44:01

main focus is explains

44:04

to you a lot of his loneliness.

44:06

And it's your whole identity, I mean his that's

44:08

his whole identity. It's

44:10

what you're saying, Sean. It all boils down to

44:13

what do you give up? What do you get for

44:15

the pursuit of greatness?

44:16

So, Betsy, I feel like that's a question. Do

44:19

you ask yourself that as the ep what

44:21

is lost in the pursuit of greatness? Like, I

44:24

feel like that's

44:27

a big question.

44:28

I was

44:30

like, my god, that's that's the years

44:32

of therapy question, but also a real one.

44:35

It is everybody who's incredibly

44:37

devoted to a job that they

44:39

love about which they're incredibly passionate.

44:41

It's one of your main relationships

44:44

in your life, and it has that

44:46

import and it has that value, and

44:48

it means it's sometimes you

44:50

know, people are always saying, like I missed this anniversary,

44:53

or I missed some of the birth. There there are things

44:55

that you I think you balance

44:58

every day to try to figure out how

45:00

important that is. But we

45:02

all think about all the time. But I think if you're a perfectionist

45:05

and you you really care

45:07

about what it is you're doing, it doesn't matter if

45:10

it's this or something else. You

45:12

don't have a choice, Like, yeah,

45:14

I can't stop thinking about those things.

45:17

And I want to solve the problem, or I want

45:19

to crack the net, or I want to figure out what this

45:22

piece of story is that's in the back

45:24

of my head, right, And Shanda knows this. It's like

45:27

we call them barking dogs. It's the

45:29

stuff that you know, keeps me awake sometimes.

45:32

But I get more joy also

45:35

out of that. And I think, not to the point

45:37

God knows of being king or Queen of England.

45:40

Let's not get ahead of ourselves

45:42

here.

45:42

But and that's the thing though, I mean, I think

45:45

that's the thing about the characters is we

45:47

are talking about people. And what fascinated

45:49

me about the royals is that they are

45:51

trapped like, this is not a

45:53

job you expensively,

45:56

This's not a job you can quit, This is not a job

45:58

you choose. This is a thing that you

46:01

know, they are going to be queen and king forever.

46:04

So for them, the pursuit of greatness isn't

46:07

it isn't a choice like it's

46:10

you know, it wasn't that long before that people

46:12

were beheaded, you know. But for them it's not a choice.

46:15

They have to do these jobs. Whereas

46:17

for us, you know, we're people who can redefine

46:19

what we think greatness is every day.

46:21

That's really well put.

46:22

Yeah, they can't do that. They don't have the option

46:24

because all they have is what's public.

46:26

But also because it's bloodline too. It's

46:29

right, you never can get out of it.

46:31

That's what I found so fascinating about

46:33

just the world and even Queen Charlotte, Like she's

46:36

that woman is trapped and a job

46:39

that she can't quit, do you know what I

46:41

mean? Like she's got to be the loneliest

46:43

woman in England.

46:44

And she tries to quit it a couple of times in this show.

46:47

I mean, she's like, I'm going to get I'm going to get on a

46:50

horse in a boat, I'm getting the hell out of here. And

46:52

it was like, actually, no, you can't, because then

46:55

they will arrest you. Because you

46:57

will be treason. It's because you've got a baby

46:59

in your stuate's there's no free

47:01

will passed a point. And that's the thing is I think, I

47:04

think we can identify with the things

47:06

that we all give up on a day to day basis. But it's

47:08

still, as Shanna says, it's a choice for us. So

47:12

but it definitely puts our choices in

47:14

perspective, that's for sure.

47:16

Yes, imagine.

47:19

Looking at Shondaland's history of depicting

47:21

my person in Queen Charlotte,

47:23

intimacy is key in your writing and

47:26

how Shawndaland's teams have historically anchored

47:29

shows that are about like

47:31

the wild and extravagant or far fetched

47:34

and the routine kind of scenarios.

47:37

They're all anchored by intimacy. So

47:40

there's a scene between Corey and Freddy. Corey

47:43

is young King George at a long table.

47:45

He's beginning to compensate

47:47

or tremble, and Freddy mentioned

47:50

are Reynolds mentioned, the

47:52

wine, you go where I'm going.

47:54

I know where you're going. The incredible intimacy

47:57

of him putting his hand on his shoulder to study him. Now,

48:00

there's one thing that we did actually

48:02

cut out of the show. That's one scene that got cut out of

48:04

the show. There's an amazing scene at

48:06

the beginning of at the end of m said five

48:09

where you or Freddie

48:11

tells what were Reynolds

48:14

tells Brimsley

48:17

his history with the King, that they've known each other since

48:19

they were children, and that they kept each

48:21

other's secrets. And I

48:25

didn't need that scene because when you watch

48:27

them together, you

48:29

can see that that history and that

48:31

intimacy and that comfort level with one another. I mean,

48:34

to me, what was most key was

48:37

Reynolds puts his hand on George's

48:39

shoulder when George needs it the most, and

48:42

Brimsley can only stand in a hallway

48:45

and hold his hand out in the direction of the

48:47

Queen when she needs it the most. He cannot

48:49

put his hand on her. The intimacy

48:51

that Reynolds and George have is

48:54

a much more intense one built from

48:56

years and years and years together versus the fresh

48:58

new intimacy between Brimsley and the

49:00

Queen. We're gonna

49:02

take a really quick break in when we return. We're just gonna

49:05

jump in and we're going to unpack your questions.

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52:19

Hi, it's me Shonda Rhimes. You're listening to Queen

52:22

Charlotte A bridgeton Story, the official

52:24

podcast. Let's get into these fan questions.

52:27

But first, let's take a moment to talk about

52:29

the Garden situation.

52:31

I think about the term you're

52:33

my person. I think about the garden

52:36

conversation when talking about

52:38

seeing like friendship and

52:41

intimacy. Betsy, can

52:43

you talk about how

52:45

that fits across Shondaland's

52:47

history of showing friendship.

52:50

I think there's something about that that's both the same

52:52

and kind of different than

52:54

what I would call this sort of you're my person

52:57

box. Because you're my person

52:59

box, I would put it the young

53:01

Lady Danbury, young Queen Charlotte.

53:03

I think what I love about the garden scene

53:06

is it's Violet Danbury,

53:08

who has no one to talk to about

53:11

this, and who with whom she has. I

53:13

would say a relationship with evolve so

53:15

with the course of the show, and

53:17

at that particular point, it is not fully evolved

53:19

yet, So I don't think anybody's anybody's

53:22

person at that point. I think at

53:24

that point what it is is Violet Bridgerton's

53:27

going through heat and she has

53:30

nobody. She looks around

53:32

her world and she has kids,

53:35

and she has no other female

53:38

friends. So it's much more about

53:40

Violet Bridgerton trying

53:42

to share something, being relieved

53:45

and embarrassed she shared it, and

53:47

then clutching her pan brag and

53:49

grabbing her purse and running out.

53:51

You know, yes, my secondhand

53:53

embarrassment was yeah.

53:56

But what I do think it is is it's a building

53:59

block in the hole, which it's

54:01

a piece in the hole, which is this

54:05

how a relationship evolves

54:08

over the course, and it's one of my favorite

54:10

things about the show is watching two

54:12

people who have always been cordial

54:14

and who have served each other's purposes

54:17

over time. And I think our friendly,

54:20

you know, in terms of these this

54:23

period of time, but what happens over the course

54:26

of the show is they actually

54:29

reach an understanding which is way deeper

54:32

and way more profound and sets

54:35

a different relationship in motion. And

54:38

it's where it was one of those things I watched and I went,

54:40

I want to see them after this

54:42

has transpired as friends,

54:44

because they're different kinds of friends now.

54:47

And going back to your question about Shondaland,

54:49

I think that's a lot of or just

54:52

about how we to pick female friendships, which is clearly

54:54

something which I think is

54:56

core and key certainly to what

54:59

I love to to watch and to work on. Is

55:02

it's that relationships

55:05

are filled with changes and surprises

55:07

and if you don't grow, it

55:09

dies kind of like her Garden.

55:11

I love that they're imperfect, but they have to

55:14

be.

55:14

But to me, I feel like we're watching Violet, who's a lady

55:16

who, like you're saying, how does it relate to my person

55:19

or having a person. Violet's a person without a person. Violet

55:21

doesn't have a person, yea, Lady dember It doesn't

55:24

have kids. The point is that these

55:26

ladies are living these weird,

55:28

isolated lives because they're not considered to have

55:30

full lives that they share with one another. And

55:33

the moment in which she shares sort of out of desperation,

55:36

is this wonderful door that opens to create some intimacy

55:38

between the two of them. That's still not fully

55:40

intimate relationship because Lady

55:43

Danberry still got her own secrets that she's keeping. Also,

55:45

you know, I know that we love to talk about female friendships

55:47

and I know how important it is, but nobody ever talks

55:49

about male friendships as if it's a remarkable,

55:52

magical thing that men can be friends. We're not just talking

55:54

about the intimacy of female friendships and portraying

55:56

them very differently in this show versus other

55:59

shows. They are much closer to

56:01

me. All of these relationships that we're watching,

56:03

and Queen Charlotte are imperfect. Her

56:05

marriage to George, it's an imperfect relationship,

56:08

and we're watching somebody figure out how to make an imperfect

56:10

relationship work. We're watching

56:13

Lady Danbury do the same thing, and we're watching lad

56:15

Danbury do the same thing in her friendship with Queen Charlotte, where

56:17

there's huge power imbalance. All of these

56:19

relationships that we're looking at are imperfect

56:22

relationships, and yet people have found ways

56:24

to step past all those things that you

56:27

know generally like everything needs to be perfect to have a

56:29

happy ending. None of these stories have a happy ending,

56:31

but they figure out how to make them work, because that's

56:34

what real life and real love and real friendships

56:36

really are about.

56:37

And you don't take the ending into consideration

56:40

in life. You just take the process,

56:43

you know. So it's all we all talk about happy endings,

56:45

and I jecob movies because the our happy endings because then

56:47

you leave and you go home and you deal with the crap

56:50

you have at home. But it's the

56:52

process and how the relationships

56:55

evolve.

56:56

Yeah, I mean, watching Charlotte

56:58

and George navigate what it is. Obviously

57:02

we already know the end when we begin, by the way, and

57:04

obviously a very damaged relationship

57:07

fraught with a lot of disappointments. And then you're

57:09

watching Brimsley and Reynolds, which their relationships

57:11

are fraught with all of these barriers

57:14

and walls and rules about you know, how

57:16

they can be together, and Lady Danberry

57:18

who's trapped in a marriage that is not

57:20

at all anything that she wants, and how it brings

57:22

her to a place where she understands that she doesn't want a relationship

57:24

at all. Like for me, all of that is

57:27

that was refreshing to see well, and it's

57:29

fun to work on. It's fun to write because you

57:31

get to show you know, there's a lot of fairy

57:34

tale in Bridgerton, and I didn't want Queen

57:36

Charlotte to be a fairy tale.

57:38

So Miss Claudia on

57:40

Instagram asks Shanda,

57:43

what are your thoughts on the perceived issues

57:45

of fantasizing history, specifically

57:47

when it comes to the portrayal of people of color

57:50

during the eras the Bridge reverse spans, and

57:52

she also asks if

57:54

there's an issue of erasure on

57:56

some level.

57:58

So I find that to be a fast question,

58:00

mainly because we've made

58:03

clear that the Bridge of Verse is

58:05

its own world. We've been very clear

58:07

that we're not standing in actual history. We're

58:10

talking about, you know, Queen Charlotte is Bridgerton's

58:13

Queen Charlotte story, which

58:15

works for me on the same level as saying,

58:19

you know, I watched some shows in the Marveling Universe,

58:21

and I feel really uncomfortable that we're erasing the

58:23

history of robots or whatever. Do you know

58:25

what I mean? Like, it's

58:27

if we're talking about telling

58:30

story in fiction. There is science fiction

58:32

obviously that you know, puts zombies

58:34

in the middle of the Nazi Germany or whatever,

58:37

and nobody asks them about that in the service

58:39

of their storytelling. We have a universe

58:42

that we have created, and we have not

58:44

actually added science fiction to it. We

58:46

haven't thrown random things into it. We

58:48

took a piece of history and we extrapolated what would

58:51

the story have been like if we had gone in this direction,

58:53

if the world had gone in this direction, if Queen Charlotte

58:55

had been a woman of color. I don't think that we're

58:57

a racing history because I'm not trying to tell a history. I

59:01

think when you're watching a biopic

59:03

or a docu series or whatever, that's there's

59:05

a real responsibility there. But we

59:07

were telling the story of Queen Charlotte from Bridgerton,

59:11

which is not the same as telling the story of Queen Charlotte

59:14

as she stood in history. And I

59:16

should hope we're not a racing history. My goal, by

59:18

the way, is that you then go back and spend a lot of time

59:20

reading and trying to figure out where everything

59:23

lays down and what was portrayed

59:26

you know, from the actual history, and what wasn't and

59:28

what you can learn. Like I spent a lot of time tracing

59:31

the slavery timeline in terms

59:33

of these people and what it meant, because I became fascinated

59:36

by like what was actually there

59:38

and what was going on. Also, you know, I'm just

59:40

not going to tell stories where I'm not standing at the center,

59:42

where people who look like me aren't a part of that story.

59:45

I wonder for the both of you, how

59:48

long you have felt like you

59:51

have the space to

59:55

dream up whatever you want and to just

59:57

put it out there for your own joy

1:00:00

and not necessarily for the

1:00:03

response, And that if that's

1:00:05

even a thing.

1:00:07

We only make shows we'd like to watch, right, bet

1:00:09

say, that's our thing.

1:00:10

Yeah, I can't work on anything

1:00:12

that I don't want to see

1:00:15

or I don't want to say, or or

1:00:17

it's something that I don't see somewhere

1:00:20

that needs to be seen.

1:00:22

We talk about this a lot, like our responsibility

1:00:24

is entertainment and storytelling. Our

1:00:26

responsibility is to tell you a story and entertaining.

1:00:29

Our responsibility is not to tell you a story that you necessarily

1:00:31

are going to agree with or

1:00:35

reflects the story, because I always say, if I told you the story that you

1:00:37

wanted to hear, then I wouldn't be telling

1:00:39

you a story. I would just be sort of regurgitating

1:00:41

back to you you. I think it's so important

1:00:44

to tell people stories that challenge them and challenge

1:00:46

the way they like to perceive the world or the

1:00:48

way they're looking at things, or how they feel

1:00:50

things should be portrayed. And that's

1:00:52

not an active activism or anything.

1:00:55

We're literally just telling good story that makes us happy.

1:00:57

It's just, seriously, stuff I want to watch.

1:01:00

If we were not making shows we want to watch, then there's

1:01:02

no point in making shows.

1:01:03

And that's been true since the very beginning.

1:01:06

Exactly all we know how to do is to make shows we want

1:01:08

to watch. That's literally always been our only

1:01:10

role. We will only make.

1:01:11

Shows that to watch and something we haven't

1:01:13

done before.

1:01:15

Right, we can't be something we've done before because we get poored. But

1:01:17

I get it, like I understand in

1:01:19

terms of representation, where if you have not been represented

1:01:22

enough, every representation becomes

1:01:24

the representation, which

1:01:27

to me is always not a sign of that

1:01:29

show didn't represent you correctly. Like if you watch a show

1:01:31

and you're like, I didn't like how they portrayed this character, that

1:01:33

show didn't represent you correctly, it's a sign that there

1:01:35

are not enough stories being told that

1:01:37

represent you. They're just not enough stories

1:01:39

being told where you can see yourself. It's

1:01:42

not any one storyteller's job to

1:01:45

represent you. It's that there

1:01:47

should be such a diversity of storytelling that

1:01:49

you get to see yourself in a million different places. Because

1:01:51

I've never heard of a white man go I don't feel correctly

1:01:53

represented on television, Like no,

1:01:55

because they see themselves everywhere.

1:01:59

You'll find your yourself somewhere, right, if

1:02:01

you don't like your stelf and one, you'll find yourself

1:02:04

in something else. And to your point, and

1:02:06

that's yeah, yeah,

1:02:09

oh.

1:02:09

We think about that when in terms characters a caller, we think about

1:02:11

it. When I'm to women, we think about it when terms of

1:02:13

core presentation, like we're really

1:02:15

trying to tell stories about humanity

1:02:18

here like.

1:02:19

Life, very often there's way

1:02:21

more going on than you think. And

1:02:25

that's the other great thing is

1:02:27

is people surprise you.

1:02:29

Sometimes they don't, but sometimes

1:02:32

they do, and sometimes discovering their reasons

1:02:34

as to why they are

1:02:36

the way they are without it getting all trinky. But

1:02:39

is why the joy of this is

1:02:41

being able to on some level I can always

1:02:44

relate to Like people go who's your favorite character,

1:02:46

and I'm like, well, right today it's this, But tomorrow

1:02:48

I'm going to relate to Queen Charlotte

1:02:51

in a different way. And tomorrow the next day I'm

1:02:53

Reynolds man. I'm having a Reynolds day.

1:02:56

That's the fun part is depending on where

1:02:58

your head is, it's use your own adventure

1:03:00

sort of situation. I agree this

1:03:02

is from Chaotic Guitar Again, they asked

1:03:05

about a particular scene. They said, I found the scene where

1:03:07

Charlotte asks Brimsley why he never married

1:03:09

very sad. Do you think that was

1:03:12

in aha moment for Charlotte that

1:03:14

she actually never asked

1:03:17

Brimsley personal questions before?

1:03:19

And then on another occasion I

1:03:22

have heard the question why was

1:03:24

that conversation happening through

1:03:26

the mirror?

1:03:27

Well, let's talk about the fact that how often

1:03:29

are she and Brimsley staring one another in the face. That's

1:03:31

not very often he's always five paces behind her,

1:03:33

which is one of the reasons why the mirror

1:03:36

works so well. One but

1:03:38

two. Look, it

1:03:40

was definitely an AHA moment for Queen Charlotte. I love

1:03:42

Queen Charlotte. I love that character. I loved

1:03:44

writing her. But one of my favorite things about her

1:03:47

is she's the Queen. She's inherently

1:03:49

selfish. Everything about her

1:03:51

world has been built for her, so it

1:03:54

has certainly never once occurred to her to

1:03:56

ask Brimsley personal questions about

1:03:58

himself, you know what I mean. And that

1:04:01

doesn't make her a bad person. That makes her the Queen.

1:04:03

And I really enjoyed getting to

1:04:06

to layer that in. I love that moment when Agatha

1:04:09

says, I've been you know, I've been tending to issues

1:04:11

from my husband's you know, passing an estate.

1:04:14

It is good to be home. I

1:04:17

have missed your company. Tell me what

1:04:19

if I missed while I was away.

1:04:21

As for the ton, I have no gossip of consequence

1:04:23

to share.

1:04:25

I have been occupied.

1:04:27

Attending to the estate and the wake of the death

1:04:29

of my husband.

1:04:30

Of course, you are mourning

1:04:32

a great loss and the children.

1:04:38

Is there anything I can do, Queen

1:04:40

Charlotte, It's like oh, yes, and then she's like, oh, wait, is there

1:04:42

anything I can do? Like it's never even occurred to her

1:04:44

that there's anything she could do, because

1:04:47

her whole world is geared to be about

1:04:49

her. So yeah, I don't think it's ever

1:04:51

hurts her. And I love the look on the actress

1:04:53

Golda's face when Brimsley gives his answer

1:04:55

and then he walks away, because she has

1:04:58

a very real sense that he

1:05:00

has sacrificed as much as

1:05:02

she has in that moment and

1:05:05

knows that they can never discuss it. I don't think

1:05:07

you can maintain a distance between the two of them

1:05:09

with if they spent all their time speaking

1:05:11

intimately. There are two pieces

1:05:13

to this I think are really interesting. Is that he says

1:05:16

to her about her daughters, they could not

1:05:18

leave you there trapped in time, but neither

1:05:20

could hear I mean. And that's the point.

1:05:23

Oh,

1:05:27

I'm really happy an oh moment.

1:05:29

It's why he understand. If you watch the whole show

1:05:31

just from the perspective of just Brimsley, I think

1:05:34

you see a lot of things that maybe

1:05:36

you wouldn't have seen before.

1:05:38

I never thought Brimsley thinking of himself

1:05:40

as one of Oh okay, but

1:05:43

I guess I did, but I just didn't package

1:05:45

it like that.

1:05:47

He's been with her longer than her children.

1:05:49

He's been with her longer than her dogs. He's been with her

1:05:51

longer than anybody in her life. They have the most.

1:05:54

He's been with her longer than her husband, more intimately

1:05:56

than her husband. They have the most intimate relationship

1:05:59

that she has in her work. Is that is

1:06:01

our relationship with.

1:06:01

Him and by far the most man hours.

1:06:04

Yeah, and they spend all their time together,

1:06:07

Like she says, we'll spend the rest of our lives together

1:06:09

at the beginning of the first end of the first episode, so angrily.

1:06:12

The reality of it is It's true. They spend their lives

1:06:14

together. They have the marriage. Thank

1:06:16

you everybody so much for paying attention

1:06:18

and watching Queen Charlotte A Bridgeton Story,

1:06:20

listening to the podcast a Queen Charlotte a Bridgeton

1:06:22

Story, reading the book Queen Charlotte A

1:06:24

Bridget and story. Betsy and I enjoy

1:06:27

talking to you, don't we, Betsy.

1:06:28

We definitely enjoy talking to you, and

1:06:31

for me to thank you so much for

1:06:34

watching, reading, listening,

1:06:37

and especially for joining

1:06:40

us for this podcast.

1:06:41

Giving us an opportunity to talk to each other about

1:06:44

a project that we both.

1:06:45

Love, which I will always take

1:06:47

an opportunity to do.

1:06:48

Yep.

1:06:50

As we draw a curtain on this season,

1:06:53

I cannot help but feel overwhelmed

1:06:56

with the need to

1:06:58

show my gratitude to Shonda

1:07:00

Rhymes, Betsy Bears, and the

1:07:03

entire team at shondaland we

1:07:05

extend a heartfelt thank you for

1:07:07

opening the doors of the court and

1:07:09

granting us access to the

1:07:12

profound parts of each artist

1:07:14

involved in bringing Queen Charlotte to life.

1:07:16

Before we wrap, I must acknowledge

1:07:19

Tom Verica one last time, an

1:07:21

inter real piece of the puzzle You has

1:07:23

lent his vision as a director in shaping

1:07:25

the visual world of Queen Charlotte and

1:07:28

the culture on set, and

1:07:30

together, Shonda, Betsy and Tom

1:07:33

have formed a synergy that's brought this

1:07:35

series to life right And I know you're

1:07:37

with me in applauding their talent for assembling

1:07:40

a bewitching blend of cast

1:07:42

and crew that all gave us Queen Charlotte.

1:07:45

It's really been fun, y'all. This has been

1:07:47

such a great rop through the season

1:07:49

with the cast and to hang out and chat with remarkable

1:07:52

artists who continue to inspire

1:07:54

and ignite our imaginations. Queen

1:07:57

Charlotte, a bridgeton story is just one

1:07:59

testament to the growing legacy of Shondaland

1:08:02

and the enchantment of storytelling.

1:08:05

The collective brilliance is a Queen

1:08:10

Charlotte. The Official podcast is executive

1:08:12

produced by Sandy Bailey, Alex

1:08:14

Alcea, Lauren Homan, Akeia

1:08:17

mcnight, and me Gabby Collins.

1:08:19

Our producer and editor is Tarry Harrison.

1:08:22

Subscribe to the podcast anywhere

1:08:24

you get your favorite shows. Get the book

1:08:27

I'm a Crispy Turn the page, smell the

1:08:29

binding kind of Queen, but you

1:08:32

can download it until we meet again.

1:08:34

Maybe all find inspiration in the grace,

1:08:36

elegance and audacity of Queen

1:08:39

Charlotte. Thanks again for joining

1:08:41

us, Queen

1:08:48

Charlotte. The Official Podcast is a production

1:08:50

of Shondaland Audio in partnership with iHeartRadio.

1:08:53

For more podcasts, visit the iHeartRadio

1:08:55

app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

1:08:57

you listen to your favorite shows.

1:09:00

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