0:02

School of Humans.

0:05

This show follows the investigation of serial

0:07

murders and contains material that may be disturbing.

0:11

Listener discretion advised.

0:18

Welcome everybody. Kurt Kubachek

0:20

here, Thank you so much for tuning

0:22

in to our bonus episode. I

0:24

wanted to bring you all back because there was

0:26

a lot of things we wanted to share with you all,

0:29

including more in depth interviews with

0:31

Cecilia Stein. We'll also

0:33

hear great insight from Nicky Falkoff

0:36

and more from Merinduz Stein. So

0:39

I've got Jennifer Tacchini, my co producer,

0:41

here with me.

0:42

Hi.

0:42

It's great to be back, and.

0:44

Also I'm really excited to introduce another

0:46

important team member, our lead producer, Julia

0:49

chriscau.

0:50

Hey, good to be here.

0:51

We're going to tie up some loose ends of the case,

0:54

including what we currently know about the open

0:56

investigation into Colonel Diyager, Captain

0:58

Johann van Vick, and Cecilia's

1:01

husband, Officer Jari Stein. We'll

1:03

also take you through everything, including

1:06

some of our wild adventures on the ground

1:08

in South Africa. If

1:10

you've gotten this far, we appreciate

1:12

you coming to the bonus episode of

1:14

Queen havoc Here's

1:20

doctor Niki Falcoff.

1:22

These countries with these kind of really big,

1:24

opaque governments and these really really

1:26

complex, angry, difficult

1:29

histories of violence, and these societies

1:31

that are very diverse, where lots of people feel

1:33

left out, you know, in a way that you wouldn't necessarily

1:36

get in Western Europe.

1:39

Is there something about those

1:41

kinds of societies that makes people more susceptible

1:43

to the sort of charisma that you know, a

1:46

Manson or a Cecilia Stein has quite

1:48

possibly?

1:50

Well I met Cecilia Stein this week. Oh my

1:52

god? Yeah, how is that?

1:58

Most people could

2:01

fall prey to her? Okay,

2:03

instantly when we met

2:06

it began her control.

2:09

Yeah, she was on it the moment

2:11

it started.

2:12

So she there's some kind of manipulative

2:17

skill that this person has that

2:19

is beyond the understanding of most of us.

2:21

And if you're not, i

2:23

mean really hyper

2:26

self aware, you wouldn't see it.

2:28

Wow, imagine if she used her powers

2:30

for good?

2:34

So what was that like being in her presence then? So

2:37

I know we talked a little bit about it in the episodes,

2:39

but like, did you feel that she was like working

2:41

that charm on you all when you were meeting her

2:43

in the prison.

2:44

I think so. I mean immediately

2:46

when we walked in the room, we

2:48

were introduced to a lot of the staff and

2:51

a lot of the people that were there. And

2:55

it really felt like we had

2:57

to remind ourselves

2:59

where we were because it felt like just a

3:01

casual conversation with friends and you

3:04

know, just catching up, you

3:06

know, over coffee.

3:07

As a reminder, Sun City is one

3:09

of the most dangerous prisons in South

3:11

Africa. She instantly

3:14

welcomed us. She just went in for

3:16

hugs. It wasn't like we had a choice. But

3:20

she was lovely and friendly

3:22

and I mean she made everybody in the

3:24

whole area know that

3:26

we were there to see her. And I mean

3:29

she's laughing and giggling. She doesn't take

3:31

anything really that seriously with us.

3:33

She tried to keep everything really really

3:36

light. I mean, she brought

3:38

us into you know, where

3:40

you forgot. It's strange when you

3:42

obviously are like, how could you do this to people?

3:45

And how could you, you know, do this manipulate

3:47

people, abuse religion, you know, cause

3:49

people to take lives, and

3:52

then you're actually with these people and

3:55

they're kind to you and they're

3:57

respectful to you, and you obviously

3:59

have your especially with Cecilia going

4:01

Okay, she's she's playing chess too,

4:04

so and I think that was the biggest thing me and Jennifer,

4:06

you know, was like, always remember she's she

4:09

can't shut that off. She she's always going

4:11

to be Cecilia. She's always going to be playing chess.

4:13

So don't get too comfortable. Yep, don't

4:15

get too comfortable. So but I

4:17

mean, Mirinda, as you heard in the series,

4:20

you know, I was pretty rocked after meeting her. But

4:23

what was I think so overwhelming

4:25

for me is that she was really really nice

4:27

to me, and to know

4:30

that just in a quickness

4:32

that she could go and turn

4:35

into whether it's because of her manipulated,

4:38

brainwashed you know, kind of

4:40

psyche about Cecilia, or

4:43

she's just capable of that and has that deep

4:45

thing right. But the scariest

4:48

part is I saw the high school teacher. Yeah,

4:50

I literally experienced the high school

4:53

teacher when I sat with her, which

4:55

was the daytime. Yeah,

4:57

the daytime, Mirinda.

4:59

Yeah, you know, and it seems

5:01

like everyone had kind of a split personality. I mean

5:03

Luke talks about that as well. Oh yeah,

5:06

you know, having feeling like he's one person during

5:08

the day and then at night he's himself.

5:10

And it's so horrible

5:12

to have to put on this mask all

5:14

the time. But I feel like for Cecilia

5:17

and eventually Marinda, probably it

5:19

didn't feel like a mask anymore, right, It

5:21

just became who they were.

5:23

I see myself as I

5:25

see myself as a vigilante.

5:27

And then I thought, okay, Marenda, so

5:30

I fetched my old broken dictionary

5:32

and it says that a person who takes care.

5:34

Of a criminal act.

5:37

So you might not agree with the vigilante.

5:39

See, the people.

5:40

That we killed were bad,

5:42

but they were.

5:46

Potatoes. Okay.

5:49

I think one of the most

5:51

interesting quotes from Cecilia that you

5:53

all got was that Cecilia

5:55

means blindness.

5:57

Even in court, you listen to people testify

5:59

and it's the opinion of something that happened.

6:03

Just example, in court, the

6:05

prosecutor was explaining to me what

6:08

might tattoos mean, and

6:11

I have an eye tattooed on my shoulder and

6:15

he was saying that it's the eye of run. I'm going

6:17

no, my name is Cecilia. It means

6:19

blindness.

6:22

She is using

6:24

her charm to real people

6:26

in but she's completely blind

6:28

to their experience. To like anyone else's

6:30

experience besides her own, which is like

6:33

the narcissist psychopath thing

6:35

that's happening.

6:38

At one point I asked Cecilia how

6:40

it felt to be labeled the female

6:42

Charles Manson, and this was

6:45

a response.

6:46

Well, this is the first time I'm hearing

6:49

someone saying that I'm the female

6:51

version of Charles Manson. I

6:54

don't know a lot about him, but will

6:56

definitely go check up on that. I

6:59

was always over to present myself.

7:02

It's something that inchiegued me. I

7:04

do believe he was female. Just

7:06

for the record, it's not a sexisting Females

7:10

are so much better at everything

7:12

else. What's this saying? Give

7:15

what the devil isn't able to do? You'll send a woman.

7:21

I believe that she saw

7:24

this avenue into these people

7:27

of Let me give you purpose

7:30

correct, Let me give you I need to

7:32

be taken care of, I need your money,

7:35

I need a ride, I

7:37

need your help. Let me

7:40

give you something to

7:42

be purposeful about. And that's what

7:44

I think is slightly unique about this. You

7:47

know, this serial mastermind,

7:50

whatever all the different names they give her, it's

7:52

just a unique brand into

7:55

finding people that specifically

7:58

have this need to nurture.

8:01

Yeah.

8:01

No, that's actually a very very very good point

8:03

that I hadn't thought of. I'm thinking about

8:05

cut leaders that I know a little

8:07

bit about, people like the

8:09

Jonestown crime and other kind of massive

8:11

cut leaders. What they tend to do is they do

8:13

provide people with the sense of purpose, but

8:16

in the sense that they go, you must follow me, and

8:18

then you two will be strong like me. Their charisma

8:20

is about strength and power, whereas

8:22

what she did was almost about weakness.

8:25

She was constantly showing how vulnerable

8:27

she is. I wonder if that's something to do with being

8:30

a female cult leader rather than a male

8:32

cult leader. That you cannot take

8:35

this huge, vast patriarchal position where

8:37

you go I am God, I am Jesus, everyone must follow

8:39

me. Instead you go, I am I

8:41

am the thing that needs to be saved from the greatest evil

8:43

around, and you must all collectively save me, and in

8:46

doing so you save yourselves.

8:48

Yes, and you're doing something good and you're

8:50

doing something righteous. Cecilia

8:54

used pity as a manipulation tactic

8:56

wherever she could. She never

8:58

failed to mention her sicknes even

9:00

with us.

9:02

I think, at the end of the day, it was just a group

9:04

of people really taking care of each other.

9:07

I was the one that was sick the whole time. Yeah,

9:09

my lungs and messed up, Yes, all

9:13

of those things. But it wasn't just

9:15

taking care of me because I was sick. We were friends.

9:18

We cooked together, we ate together every

9:20

day, we visited together every

9:22

day. I think it was

9:24

more just being there. I know in the court

9:26

case they pulled that out of proportion,

9:29

but it was really just a group of people taking

9:31

care of each other. So,

9:35

yeah, what they're saying, Korn,

9:37

what happens in real life is too completely

9:39

completely different things.

9:41

Cecilia is chock full of contradiction

9:43

herself, constantly creating

9:46

a facade to hide behind. Detective

9:48

Ben Boysen told us that he believes

9:51

Cecilia and EPD to be connected

9:53

to at least four more murders, ones

9:55

that he couldn't prove.

9:57

I linked them actually with were

10:00

fifteen murders, but I could

10:02

only prove leven, so I only took

10:04

that eleven cases to court

10:07

at the end of the day.

10:09

Ben also did some digging into

10:11

Cecilia's background before the days

10:13

of Ria grunivald An.

10:14

EPD even began going

10:17

back Cecilia's husband

10:19

had a girlfriend in two thousand and

10:22

five, and eventually

10:24

she was also killed in a brutal way. But in

10:27

two thousand and five, Zach Valentine

10:29

and Marenda and those people was not part

10:31

of her So I don't

10:33

know if Cecilia

10:36

did that killing by herself or

10:39

was there at that stage other people

10:41

in her life that she was convincing

10:44

to kill people.

10:47

Ye, it's like Suside said she could open a university

10:50

to teach people manipulation.

10:52

Yeah. I mean she had them believe that. You

10:54

know, she gave everybody a teddy bear, and

10:57

they believed that she embodied the teddy bear

10:59

and that she could watch them through the teddy bear and

11:02

all their actions. And so Marcelle and the room believe

11:05

that they're being watched at all times.

11:06

Let go of that.

11:09

She never admitted anything to us

11:11

with regard to the crimes and told us

11:13

her versions of everything. We knew

11:15

that there was a dark side or a shadow version

11:17

of herself that she didn't show us, which

11:20

was capable of saying and doing whatever

11:22

it took to get what she wanted.

11:24

I was believed there's no biggo small sense citizen,

11:27

whether you lie or kill or steal. Some

11:29

people steal chocolates,

11:33

some people steal people's lives. Yeah,

11:37

waither it's it's shoplifting

11:40

or murder or there's no bigg or small

11:42

citizen. So

11:45

yeah, I don't have the right to judge

11:48

anybody. I

11:50

think we just.

11:51

As you know, we'll

11:54

be right back.

12:02

A lot of those common and grifters end up being religious

12:04

leaders and then they just become common and grifters at a

12:06

larger scale, right. I'm

12:09

just I'm thinking about the kind of really

12:11

extractive evangelical churches

12:13

that are popping up all over South Africa, where people

12:16

who have very very very little are giving

12:18

most of what they have to a preacher.

12:20

I would love to dive into that, because we've also

12:22

found our way to attend one

12:24

of the church that

12:27

one of the police officers who's under investigation right

12:29

now is pastoring.

12:30

Oh wow.

12:34

Basically we found out while we were there that

12:37

Diyogart had opened

12:39

up some kind of a small congregation

12:41

of his own. I know, this is absolutely

12:44

insane, right after hearing everything we just

12:46

did. So on the day

12:48

that I was set to go into the prison

12:50

to see Merinda Stein, Jennifer

12:53

was very interested in obviously joining

12:55

me, but the only time of

12:58

this church service was the day

13:00

I was set to go in to the prison.

13:02

So I kind of, you know, looked

13:05

at Jennifer and said, hey, I know

13:07

you're going to be on your own here pretty much,

13:09

but I think this is really important, don't you

13:11

think? And she totally agreed. So, Jennifer,

13:13

you want to tell me about that day?

13:15

Yeah. So I really was curious

13:18

about Diagar and wanted

13:20

to ask him some questions. We

13:23

really wanted to get the perspective of

13:26

the detectives that we hadn't spoken to. We

13:28

hopped in a car with one of our colleagues

13:30

from South Africa and drove

13:33

two hours outside of Johannesburg and

13:35

pulled up and unfortunately

13:38

I was left my own devices to go and by myself,

13:41

and we were running a little

13:43

bit late. So unfortunately the

13:45

church had started and approached

13:48

the you know, it was like a small

13:51

house, similar to like a

13:53

house in the valley in Los Angeles.

13:55

It was a little paranoid about going in. What

13:57

I was I going to say, hadn't

13:59

really prepared the questions

14:02

or you know, what the approach was. Because

14:04

I knew that he was a pastor of this church, and so

14:07

it was a delicate process to try to be able

14:09

to speak to him. And walked

14:11

up to the ornately carved

14:14

wooden doors and pushed

14:16

lightly on them, and it was locked, and so I thought

14:19

I had an out, and then I turned around

14:21

to leave, and then a person unlocked

14:24

the door and opened the door and welcomed

14:26

me in. And as soon

14:28

as I stepped into the church, the room

14:30

went silent, and I

14:32

was staring directly at Diager,

14:35

who was at the pulpit. He was

14:38

maybe around five eight

14:41

five ' nine, late fifties,

14:45

short hair like piercing blue eyes, with

14:48

a big presence.

14:51

He kind of teeters between

14:54

like lovable grandpa and

14:57

tony soprano. And

14:59

he's slowly walked down

15:01

through about thirty chairs of people

15:04

and embraced me in a hug

15:08

and had me sit down on the

15:10

back row near a fireplace.

15:13

The guy that was standing guard at the door locked

15:16

the door, and I immediately

15:18

scanned the room looking for windows, doors,

15:21

some type of exit, and there

15:23

were bars on the windows. There was

15:25

one back door, but that was it, and then there was a

15:27

fireplace and that

15:30

was it. So I was kind of stuck in this room and

15:34

I tried to blend in to the best of my

15:36

ability, but the whole church service

15:38

was an Afrikaan. So as soon as the

15:40

singing started, they there were

15:42

several individuals in the congregation that stood

15:45

up and they started waving red

15:47

flags. Wow,

15:49

like you don't need anything more clear than

15:52

a huge red flag waving in your face

15:54

to get the hell out.

15:55

Of the universe was like, go nack

15:57

it out. The

16:00

fact that you were locked in where you're like, I feel like I

16:02

would have been like shaking, Like my hands would have

16:04

been shaking.

16:05

Oh yeah.

16:05

I mean the thing is once

16:08

the door locked, knowing doom

16:11

right now, Yeah, knowing the door locked,

16:14

knowing knowing what I knew about

16:16

Deoger, I think was the scariest thing because

16:19

here you have this guy who's at the pulpit,

16:22

you know, giving a sermon for families,

16:25

for there were children in there, you know, like it was a

16:27

family church, and

16:29

he presented himself as this

16:33

family man you know, that was helping

16:36

the congregation. And that's one

16:39

side of him, and you know, we knew another side

16:41

of him.

16:42

But so it was all different

16:44

kinds of people.

16:44

Family, yeah, family.

16:46

Young people yes. And then at one point, so they were

16:48

singing hymns, and he asked

16:50

a couple of people to come to the front and

16:53

and then a person started speaking in tongues,

16:56

started convulsing and then collapsed onto

16:58

the floor, and

17:00

Dioger and some congregation members came

17:02

and helped her up. As this was all going

17:04

on, our colleague, who was

17:06

out in the car outside

17:08

texted me saying, look,

17:11

you need to tread carefully because

17:14

this is a private

17:16

church, this is a private home. He

17:18

is still a detective, still

17:21

in the force, and if he feels

17:23

like you're being aggressive

17:25

with him or you know, too confrontational,

17:29

he could arrest you. You

17:31

know, you're trespassing on his property. So

17:33

the service wrapped up and Diager

17:36

again walked down the aisle towards me

17:39

and in English, you know,

17:41

asked me if I wanted to come join the congregation

17:43

in the back room for coffee and tea

17:46

afterwards. And so followed

17:48

them all in there and let

17:50

into a really small back room. It was tiled

17:53

floor, there were windows, and

17:56

the congregation all surrounded

17:58

me and they handed me

18:01

coffee.

18:02

Were you said at ease a little bit now that you

18:04

had witnesses?

18:05

So you yeah, there were I

18:07

think I was a little bit more at ease, but at the

18:09

same time, my anxiety was, you know,

18:12

peeking, because I didn't

18:14

know what I was going to do, because I thought, oh,

18:16

I was going to approach him ask him some questions about

18:18

the case, and then realizing

18:21

that that's probably

18:23

not the best idea, and the

18:26

congregation surrounding me and then his wife.

18:28

His wife comes up to me and was really

18:30

close, you know. They the

18:33

congregation was very curious about who

18:35

I was and how I came to be there, because

18:37

this was two hours outside of a main

18:40

city, and I

18:42

told them that I told him that I

18:45

had found the church through Facebook, which

18:47

is true. And then

18:49

I also had our South African

18:51

colleague texting me, going, do not do anything

18:54

stupid, like I can only

18:56

bail you out so far. You know, you don't

18:58

end up the same prison as Celia and Mirinda

19:01

and the rest of electisprudeus, which I

19:03

don't know if that's actually possible. But so

19:07

it got awkward because as

19:10

everyone was surrounding me asking questions and I

19:12

didn't, I was kind of backing up against the

19:14

corner, you know, not really sure what

19:17

to say to get out of there, because I wasn't

19:19

going to take this opportunity to confront

19:21

him with his wife and his

19:23

congregation. There's kids, you know, It's like

19:25

this was not the time and the place, and so I

19:29

just sort of cut out and said

19:32

it was so nice to be here, and shook

19:34

everyone's hand, and then

19:36

quickly ran out to the street in

19:38

search of our colleagues car, and they

19:41

were not anywhere to be seen, and so I

19:44

ran down the block as fast

19:46

as I could try to find their car

19:49

and found it, hopped

19:51

in and we sped away as fast as we could.

19:53

But the scary thing was

19:55

on the drive back, another one

19:57

of the colleagues that we had met

19:59

with in South Africa while we are there, texted

20:02

me and said, oh,

20:04

Diagar mentioned that you visited him at church

20:07

today and I

20:09

hadn't, you know, I hadn't told them anything or

20:12

you know, any name, or you know, maybe

20:15

because I was from the States, like that was their connection.

20:17

But and that was really

20:19

scary that he knew who I was

20:22

the whole time.

20:32

So in seguence of events, so Cecilia

20:34

gets convicted in August of twenty nineteen.

20:37

Then, I mean, obviously

20:40

Dreams was implicated in

20:42

some of the testimony, right, because he was living there, so he

20:44

had to be aware of some of it.

20:47

Is it safe to say that Ben Boyson

20:49

was like, Okay, this is not over

20:52

and in order to like actually

20:54

end this, like there's a larger problem here, which

20:56

is there's corruption and

20:59

organized crime happen in the police force, which

21:01

Dion Venvick talks about a lot.

21:03

As a young prosecutor in nineteen

21:05

ninety three, you would

21:07

have blind me out of the wood if you told me then

21:10

this is what South Africa would become. So

21:15

there is an element of how

21:18

shall I explain cancer

21:23

in our model fiber on

21:26

On ground level.

21:28

It's safe to say that Ben wanted

21:30

to get these guys behind

21:32

bars.

21:33

Ultimately, what we know of is the Yager

21:36

was removed from

21:38

the police service without a pension.

21:40

This was November twenty twenty two, right,

21:42

and you all were there in August of twenty twenty

21:44

two. So November twenty twenty two, Diyager

21:47

was removed from the force I

21:50

think, a month before his pension

21:52

was supposed to kick in. Yes, and

21:55

there's currently an open investigation

21:58

that could put him by bars.

22:02

I'm curious what you think Diager's

22:04

motivations might have been because you

22:07

know, we obviously know from what we

22:09

just heard from you Jonnifer, that he is like a

22:11

god fearing individual. And

22:14

I wonder, you know, do we know anything

22:17

about how Cecilia may have manipulated

22:20

him, Like was he just terrified of her because

22:22

he also believed the satanic stuff?

22:24

Do you think she was like paying him off

22:27

maybe to keep them safe, Like maybe that's where

22:29

Zach Valentine and John Barnard's money was all

22:31

going, do you know, ensure

22:34

their all of their safety.

22:36

I don't know, but my gut tells me that this

22:39

is money from learning everything

22:41

we did when we were there and the investigation

22:43

and how underpaid and

22:46

overworked the police force is. I

22:49

think this is just something where

22:51

you know, he was able to make a little

22:53

bit extra money. He had known and

22:56

had a prior relationship with

22:58

Cecilia, so there was

23:00

kind of a give and take of you

23:02

know, financial things and also

23:05

gifts. I think Ben mentioned that in the

23:07

series, and that

23:09

kind of thing was going on because

23:12

at the end of the day, I think there was just too

23:14

much to risk, possibly for Diager

23:17

if there wasn't money involved.

23:19

The problem is the global system of capitalism

23:22

that if a woman was in charge, she would also be

23:24

stuck with And I think that's also why this particular

23:27

case caught people's attention so dramatically, because

23:29

we are all so horrified by the idea that women

23:31

could do this, particularly by the idea

23:33

that a mother, a mother

23:36

would sully her daughter in

23:38

this way. It's absolutely horrifying

23:41

and you know, fascinatingly sensational

23:44

at the same time. So I think that's drawn

23:46

a lot of attention to this case.

23:53

Colonel Henny Diyager has been released

23:55

from his duties as an officer of the law

23:58

and his pension revoked. Cecilia

24:01

Stein's husband, Drees, is

24:03

still working as a cop for the South

24:05

African Police Service. Captain

24:09

Johann van Vick came back to the

24:11

force after resigning for a bit after Michaela's

24:13

murder. He too, still

24:16

works for the SAPs.

24:24

I want to add one more thing before we wrap

24:26

things up. Something I thought

24:28

was interesting while we were

24:30

in South Africa. I was asked by Luke,

24:33

our main witness, to talk to detective

24:35

Sussette Canotse and Ben Boysen

24:38

to try to arrange a visit. Luke

24:41

wanted to go to the prison where LaRue is incarcerated

24:44

to get some information and closure

24:47

on a few things and potentially helped

24:49

Ben in the case against the corrupt cops.

24:52

So I reached out to Suzette and told

24:54

her about the situation. She'd

24:56

helped Luke in the past and agreed

24:58

to make the trip to be by a side.

25:04

Susette flew up from Cape down to Johannesburg

25:07

and met up with Luke to visit LaRue at

25:09

Sun City Prison. During

25:11

their visit, Susette told LaRue quote,

25:14

I wish you had come forward to me then and

25:16

told me your story. You were

25:18

never implicated or involved in the first four

25:21

murders, so if you told me

25:23

the truth back in twenty twelve instead

25:25

of when you were caught in twenty sixteen,

25:28

you would have never gone to prison at all. Susette

25:32

told us that there was an unforgettable look on his

25:34

face she washed as the weight

25:37

of her words sunk into his soul, and

25:39

he felt the raw truth of them,

25:42

grieving the lost promise of yet another

25:44

life he'd callously extinguished his

25:47

own. But

25:49

Luke there in prison with LaRue, he

25:52

felt it what he'd come to find

25:55

a sense of closure. LaRue

25:58

Stein is set to be least from prison

26:01

in twenty thirty nine. There's

26:04

also a small chance, according to

26:06

the state advocates we spoke with, that

26:08

Cecilia Stein could be up for parole

26:11

in twenty forty four.

26:13

At the end of the day, telling

26:16

you aside of what happened

26:19

it is it is very

26:21

much liberating in a way.

26:29

As we conclude this series, we

26:32

extend our heartfelt gratitude to all who

26:34

have supported this podcast and

26:36

everyone in South Africa who welcomed

26:38

us into your beautiful country. Thank

26:41

you again for joining us on this journey through

26:44

the darker chambers of the human heart. Together

26:48

we peered into the nearly unknowable minds

26:50

of murderers and also ventured

26:52

to grapple with the losses and the victims

26:54

they left in their wake, and

26:57

in doing so, we hope that we also

26:59

illuminated those aspects of the human psyche

27:02

that defy easy understanding. Cecilia

27:06

Stein confessed she believes

27:09

we are all sinners and that only

27:11

God can judge us. I

27:13

have to agree with her, but make

27:15

no mistake, we can still

27:17

recognize evil when we see it. Trust

27:20

yourself and always listen

27:23

to those whispers of truth inside

27:25

you. Queen

27:32

Havoc in Her Murder Cult is a production

27:35

of Schooly Humans and iHeart Podcasts.

27:38

Queen Havoc is hosted and created

27:40

by me Kurt Kupacheck, produced

27:43

and written by Jennifer Takini, Julia

27:45

Chriscau and Kurt Kupachick. Lead

27:48

producer is Julia Christgau.

27:50

Story editor is Saren Burnett.

27:53

Senior producer is Amelia

27:55

Brock. Production manager is

27:57

Daisy Church. Original music

27:59

composed by Claire Campbell,

28:02

editing, sound design and scoring

28:05

by Jesse Niswanger. Associate

28:07

producers are DaShan Moodley

28:10

and Jamaine Kriher. Additional producing

28:12

by Ben Melman, fact

28:14

checking by Dennis Webster. Recording

28:17

engineers are Graham Gibson,

28:20

Clay Hillenberg and Josh Hook.

28:23

Brind Stein was read by Angelique

28:25

Pretorius. Executive producers

28:27

are Virginia Prescott, L.

28:29

C. Crowley, Brandon Barr, Jennifer

28:32

Keny and Kurt Kupachak. We want

28:35

to thank all of those who so generously

28:37

welcomed us in South Africa and

28:39

shared their stories. We're incredibly

28:42

grateful to you all. We

28:44

also want to acknowledge how traumatic

28:47

these events are for the victims and their

28:49

families. Please respect

28:51

their privacy. If you or

28:53

someone you know has been affected by cult

28:55

behaviors, there are resources

28:58

available, including Voices

29:00

for Dignity, at Christine Murray

29:02

dot com