0:00

So but two years

0:00

ago, you're on and we talked

0:03

about your book that actually

0:03

just released. But and we're

0:08

going to talk about that for

0:08

sure. But one of the other thing

0:11

we're going to talk about is you

0:11

won an Emmy for a special about

0:15

Alcatraz and the name escapes me

0:15

is that hidden island?

0:19

Hidden

0:19

Alcatraz

0:21

Lonely Island

0:21

hidden Alcatraz, and in 1969

0:25

Native Americans, which of

0:25

course, back then, the papers,

0:28

called them Indians, occupied

0:28

Alcatraz and I find that story

0:32

fascinating. So I'm going to ask

0:32

you a little bit about that,

0:34

too. But I want to go back to

0:34

your book, because two years

0:38

ago, when you were on this

0:38

podcast, you were talking about

0:41

The Accidental Prophet. And when

0:41

you were on you said you were

0:45

going to have a book coming up

0:45

at the end of that year, that

0:48

was two years ago. And you said

0:48

you're calling it Inherit the

0:52

Lightning, but you weren't quite

0:52

sure whether you're going to

0:57

keep that name or not. So it's

0:57

been a little more than two

1:00

years, but the book is book has

1:00

finally arrived. And we're going

1:04

to have a drumroll and you're

1:04

going to say what name you

1:07

finally chose for the novel.

1:14

Inherit the Lightning.

1:15

So you went with

1:15

Inherit the Lightning? I did. Is

1:18

there a particular reason why you did so

1:20

I just thought it

1:20

worked perfectly for the story.

1:22

It's the story is about an

1:22

inheritance. And the Lightning

1:25

has a double meaning because the

1:25

name of a location in the book

1:29

is called the lightning. It was

1:29

called that by the I have the

1:33

Tuscarora Indians name at

1:33

lightning mountain and you find

1:36

out why. In the book, what why

1:36

they chose that name because

1:40

nobody's really sure. But so it

1:40

has a double meaning it's the

1:44

lightning of a spirit, a certain

1:44

spirit, a confidence and then

1:48

the lightning the hill.

1:50

Okay, well, but it's going to tell us a little bit more about that and my

1:52

fascination of this Native

1:56

American occupation of Alcatraz

1:56

coming up right after this.

2:01

It's time to pit on

2:01

your sleuthing cap, feel

2:04

nailbiting dread and face heart

2:04

racing fear. This is Queer

2:08

Writers of Crime, where you'll

2:08

get book recommendations and

2:12

hear interviews with LGBTQ

2:12

authors of mystery, suspense and

2:17

thriller novels. Here's your

2:17

host, Brad Shreve,

2:22

the person I've been speaking with this bud Gundy. He is an executive

2:24

producer and on air host of

2:28

KQED, which is the PBS and NPR

2:28

stations in Northern California.

2:34

He is also a lambda Award

2:34

nominee, and is the recipient of

2:38

two Emmys. Congratulations on

2:38

those.

2:41

Thank you.

2:41

Yeah, and let me

2:41

change that. I hate it when

2:43

people say congratulations,

2:43

because you did not win a prize.

2:47

You earned them. So great job.

2:50

Thank you very much. I appreciate that.

2:52

I always try very

2:52

hard not to say congratulations.

2:54

Okay. So we're definitely going

2:54

to talk about the book. But the

2:59

reason I want to bring up this

2:59

Alcatraz, the thing is I love

3:02

San Francisco, used to live

3:02

about 80 miles from there. And I

3:06

was there every day because my

3:06

partner at the time worked in

3:09

the city. And I picked him up to

3:09

and from BART, and we spent a

3:13

lifetime in the city. I fell in

3:13

love with it. But I didn't fall

3:15

in love with was Fisherman's

3:15

Wharf. It's to put it lightly

3:21

touristy. Yes. Very touristy,

3:24

very artificial.

3:26

Yes, yes. And, you

3:26

know, it's like I tell people,

3:29

the Grand Canyon forgot to

3:29

Arizona, you gotta go to the

3:31

Grand Canyon, just to say you've

3:31

been there. Same thing with San

3:34

Francisco. If you go there, go

3:34

to Fisherman's Wharf, just to

3:37

say you've been there, but I

3:37

wouldn't suggest staying that

3:40

long. But one good thing about

3:40

Fisherman's Wharf is that is

3:45

where you catch the boats to go

3:45

to Alcatraz. And I wasn't that

3:51

interested in going to see

3:51

Alcatraz. I mean, granted, it

3:55

was a famous high security

3:55

prison. But I thought I was

3:59

gonna see trinkets and, you

3:59

know, little, it was gonna be a

4:03

tourist trap. And I was actually

4:03

pleasantly surprised that that

4:08

was not the case. I found it

4:08

fascinating. But I want to go a

4:12

little more into that since you

4:12

did the documentary about it.

4:17

But one thing I was really

4:17

interested in at first, I was

4:20

kind of offended. And that was

4:20

all the graffiti and the

4:24

scorched buildings. And then I

4:24

learned with the story behind

4:28

what those were, and I'm glad

4:28

they were there. It was because

4:33

Native Americans took over and

4:33

occupied Alcatraz starting in

4:38

1969. And I think very few

4:38

people in this country ever knew

4:43

this happened. Tell us about it

4:43

what you know about it. I know

4:47

that's not what your show is

4:47

about. But I'd like to hear what

4:49

you do know about it?

4:50

Well, I mean, of

4:50

course, the Indian occupation

4:54

was a major part of the doc

4:54

because that's a major part of

4:58

Alcatraz history, but it's It's

4:58

it has to do with a protest by

5:03

Richard Oakes. I think that was

5:03

the name of the leader. And they

5:07

were protesting the breaking of

5:07

the treaties with the various

5:11

tribes, not just on Alcatraz but

5:11

around the country. And there

5:14

was, I believe correctly, there

5:14

was no oh, boy, they there.

5:22

There was something in the

5:22

treaty with the Native Americans

5:26

that said that if it wasn't

5:26

being used, that they could have

5:31

it. And Alcatraz was just an

5:31

abandoned prison, but a very

5:34

high profile abandoned prison in

5:34

the center of San Francisco Bay.

5:39

And so they, a group of Native

5:39

Americans went out there and

5:43

they, they held the land, they

5:43

stayed on the island for a

5:46

couple of years. It didn't end

5:46

well. Unfortunately. I know

5:51

Richard Oakes, I believe one of

5:51

his daughters actually died

5:55

because they were living in the

5:55

ruins of the buildings where the

5:59

families of the prison guards

5:59

had lived when it was a federal

6:02

prison. And they were pretty

6:02

rundown if you went to Alcatraz,

6:07

right? You see how those

6:07

buildings are just dissolving

6:10

into the air. And that's kind of

6:10

it was a little better back

6:14

then, of course, but it was

6:14

still a abandoned property,

6:17

basically. And it was pretty

6:17

dangerous. But it really

6:20

galvanized Native Americans, it

6:20

really captured the attention of

6:23

the American public. I believe

6:23

that Richard Nixon even he was

6:29

very sympathetic to the Native

6:29

Americans to he was president at

6:32

the time, but and then it like I

6:32

said, it didn't end well. But it

6:36

did make its point. And that's

6:36

what you saw there with all the

6:39

graffiti, and that graffiti, by

6:39

the way, is very, very well

6:44

protected. They don't want that

6:44

graffiti. They want to maintain

6:48

that because it is such an

6:48

important part of the islands.

6:50

So

6:52

and now that you

6:52

reminded me I do remember

6:54

reading the treaty, as far as I

6:54

can understand treaties can go.

7:00

And to me, it was pretty clear

7:00

as day right that it should have

7:03

been handed over. Exactly. There

7:03

was no questions asked. And for

7:07

those that don't know, it's now

7:07

national parkland, and that's

7:11

what I presume it will remain

7:11

and what interests to do about

7:14

the island that made you want to

7:14

do the documentary?

7:17

Well, I mean, to be

7:17

quite honest, I was working at

7:20

KQED. And we wanted to do a

7:20

documentary about it. And I was

7:24

asked if I wanted to do it. And

7:24

I said, Yeah, of course I do.

7:26

And it was a really amazing

7:26

experience, we got to go into

7:31

all the areas where the public

7:31

can't go, because it's just

7:34

basically too dangerous. But we

7:34

were, it's a ranger guided tour.

7:39

So the Rangers take you around

7:39

the island in the doc are the

7:42

ones who are remaining there.

7:42

And this was some 20 years ago.

7:46

A lot of them have retired. But

7:46

it's it was it was a very

7:51

revealing because that location,

7:51

even if it's beautiful weather

7:55

in San Francisco, you're out in

7:55

the middle of the bay. It's not

7:57

that far. You course you can see

7:57

right to it. But that wind

8:01

coming it's like straight from

8:01

the Golden Gate and the wind is

8:04

flying through. And those

8:04

seagulls and the flies, it's

8:08

really, it's really a pretty,

8:08

pretty brutal environment. And I

8:14

know that the prisoners said

8:14

that they could hear there was a

8:18

I believe it's still there, like

8:18

a sort of a fancy Yacht Club.

8:22

And they could hear on New

8:22

Year's Eve, the people at the

8:25

fancy Yacht Club having a party

8:25

and they were sitting in their

8:28

cells on this freezing cold

8:28

island with the goals of the

8:32

flies. And so yeah, it's a

8:32

really fascinating place. It's

8:35

very spooky in a lot of ways,

8:35

but definitely, as you

8:38

mentioned, it definitely worth going to see.

8:41

I think it was in

8:41

fact, I'm almost certain it was

8:43

Jack London, who said and I'm

8:43

paraphrasing, the coldest day

8:48

I've ever felt was a summer day

8:48

in San Francisco.

8:51

It was the coldest

8:51

winter I ever had was a summer

8:56

in San Francisco.

8:57

Okay. Well, I had I was close.

9:00

And I and I think

9:00

there's some question about

9:02

whether he actually said that.

9:04

Well, yeah, you know, like, all the things are attributed to Mark Twain, right.

9:05

But still a pretty good quote,

9:10

because it's damn true. It is.

9:10

And I'll tell you what

9:13

fascinated me about going to the

9:13

prison. For those of you out

9:18

there who haven't been to prison

9:18

and I hope that most of you

9:22

television makes things look

9:22

bigger because they got to get

9:26

the cameras in there. But when

9:26

you go in that prison, those

9:30

cells are tiny, tiny, tiny,

9:30

tiny, tiny and the whole space

9:34

itself that they live in is was

9:34

very small. It was a it was a

9:38

rather dreary place to live.

9:40

Absolutely it was and

9:40

they will all I don't know what

9:44

the new guards are like there I

9:44

knew all the old guards there

9:47

are the you know the Rangers

9:47

rather and they they hate that

9:51

movie. Birdman of Alcatraz

9:51

because they say it is so false.

9:56

That guy was a sociopath. He was

9:56

a horrible human being And the

10:00

movie made him out to be this

10:00

very charming, lovely person.

10:03

But anyway.

10:07

Nobody wants to see

10:07

a psychopath taking care of

10:09

birds. Exactly right. Actually,

10:09

that might not be a bad movie,

10:14

it just be a totally different

10:14

story, it would be yes. Some

10:19

somebody should rewrite it.

10:21

Yeah. Tell them tell

10:21

the true story anyway.

10:27

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10:27

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10:30

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10:30

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10:35

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10:35

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10:39

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10:43

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10:46

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11:08

Alright, so let's

11:08

get right back to what we're

11:11

talking about, which is inherit

11:11

the lightning, which as I said,

11:15

the book has been out. This show

11:15

airs on May 10, which is the day

11:19

it becomes available on Amazon.

11:19

So it is available, you can go

11:25

to the publisher and buy it, you

11:25

can go to Amazon, publish it and

11:28

buy it. I just think Bud wants

11:28

you to buy this book. I highly

11:34

recommend it as well. Why when

11:34

you said it was going to take

11:39

and I'm not one to question

11:39

because I told my readers a book

11:43

was coming out two years ago,

11:43

and they're still hounding me

11:45

about it. But you said in 2020,

11:45

it was going to be out by the

11:49

end of the year. What took so

11:49

long?

11:52

Well, it was a huge,

11:52

unwieldy story. And I tried, I

11:58

had to figure out a number of

11:58

different elements. And I was

12:02

trying various ways of

12:02

presenting those, like the

12:05

inheritance issue. I was trying

12:05

to follow legal advice that I

12:09

got from lawyers about how you

12:09

would structure it and, and it

12:12

was like, very complex. And so I

12:12

decided eventually that that

12:17

wasn't working. So I took that

12:17

out. And I replaced it with I

12:20

think a more interesting plot

12:20

twist that reveals the the

12:25

character of Cooper, Cooper

12:25

tiller, who's the great

12:27

grandfather, and just in a

12:27

number of other ways I could go

12:31

on and on and on about how big

12:31

this story was, and how it took

12:36

a lot of time to carefully shave

12:36

and edit and shape the story. So

12:41

and I just didn't want to like,

12:41

put it out there before I had

12:44

any confidence in it. You know,

12:47

what I think a lot

12:47

of times when you start doing

12:49

research, you find either it's

12:49

going to take you down a very

12:53

long road to fully understand

12:53

it. Or it could just be boring,

12:58

you know, to to make people

12:58

understand the story, you're

13:01

gonna have to somehow make this

13:01

really boring legal crap.

13:07

Interesting,

13:08

right? Or at least

13:08

not so that you have to spend so

13:10

much time on it to explain it to

13:10

the reader. Right? He's so you

13:15

just have to simplify it. And

13:15

that's, that's what took me a

13:17

while to get to, for some of it.

13:17

So, yeah.

13:21

Do you ever read

13:21

James Michener Oh,

13:24

my God, I haven't read

13:24

Michener in years.

13:26

Now. I love James

13:26

Michener. But for those that

13:29

aren't from our, almost every

13:29

one of his books begins with the

13:34

formation of the Earth, right?

13:34

Because whatever. One books

13:39

takes takes place in Colorado

13:39

and how its held the settling of

13:42

the West. Another one, my

13:42

favorite is take place, settling

13:46

Chesapeake Bay and other Alaska,

13:46

and so on and so on. So we

13:49

started with the formation of

13:49

the earth, and then how that

13:53

particular area formed. And then

13:53

he gets into the native people

13:58

that live there, which all

13:58

that's conjecture. And I used

14:01

to, I used to try and read his

14:01

novels read, and I'm like, How

14:04

can anybody read this? And then

14:04

I learned, skip all that and go

14:09

right to where the story begins.

14:09

And his stories are great. So if

14:13

you ever want if you tried to

14:13

read a Michener or novel and you

14:15

couldn't do it, skip ahead to

14:15

where the story really begins.

14:19

And you may find it's a pretty fascinating story.

14:21

Yeah, I remember one

14:21

of his books. He started with

14:23

the were the dinosaurs who were

14:23

living at that particular

14:27

location. But But yeah, it was

14:27

yeah, you're right. He did that

14:31

a lot.

14:31

And actually think

14:31

the dinosaurs was Centennial,

14:34

which is the one that Colorado

14:34

yes, they actually made a made

14:39

for TV movie of that book, which

14:39

wasn't bad. It was pretty good.

14:45

Unlike Hawaii, which was a very

14:45

good book, but they turned it

14:51

into a musical and I may my god

14:51

I don't really have been fine

14:56

musical but other than the name

14:56

My end the fact that it was

15:01

based on his book, there's no

15:01

connection whatsoever to

15:06

Yeah, I remember when

15:06

Hawaii was on TV. Yeah,

15:10

there was a tiki

15:10

tiki movie. Anyway, there was a

15:13

song that drove me insane. Now

15:13

when

15:16

I think you're

15:16

getting South Pacific mixed up

15:18

with Hawaii, am I Yes, because

15:18

Hawaii had a very I remember the

15:23

ending of that. It was very

15:23

grim. It was all the, the, you

15:27

know, the native people, you

15:27

know, the indigenous

15:31

inhabitants, I guess, would want

15:31

to say, but yeah, it was it was

15:35

pretty sad ending. It wasn't a

15:35

happy musical. I think you're

15:37

confusing. Because that you're

15:37

thinking happy, happy, happy,

15:41

happy talk. That's Yes, that's

15:41

South Pacific. Okay. Don't put

15:47

don't don't put me singing on the air.

15:53

And as you were

15:53

talking, I pulled it up. South,

15:56

or South Pacific was based on a

15:56

Rodgers and Hammerstein Broadway

16:01

play. So yes, yes. Excuse me

16:01

that I will say who I was not

16:05

all that hot either. So yeah,

16:05

yeah, excuse me for confusing

16:10

the two. And thank you for

16:10

setting me straight. Now. I want

16:15

to go back and watch why and see

16:15

if it's as bad as I recall.

16:18

I mean, interested to

16:18

go back and watch Centennial

16:21

now, because I don't I'm not

16:21

sure if I even watched it when

16:24

it came out. But I remember

16:24

trying to read that book. But

16:26

yeah, I tried was the key word

16:26

there.

16:29

Yeah, it's pretty

16:29

good. It's pretty good. Okay. I

16:33

would say the miniseries is

16:33

good. But like I said, Don't

16:37

compare the movie with TV.

16:37

They're different mediums. Yeah,

16:40

just enjoy each on their own.

16:40

Yeah, this whole I've always

16:44

said I don't play the book is

16:44

better than the movie game

16:47

because it can't compare. You

16:47

can't take a 1000 page book and

16:54

make it into a two hour movie

16:54

and have it be the same.

16:56

Exactly. different mediums.

16:56

Yeah. Now when we talked about

17:01

the story before Coop, who was

17:01

the great grandpa was a great

17:06

grandfather, great, great grandfather,

17:08

great grandfather,

17:09

a great

17:09

grandfather, he had the

17:11

inheritance in the story spans

17:11

about 140 years. And when we

17:16

first talked,Coop was going to

17:16

be a very small, almost a

17:21

throwaway character, just to say

17:21

he has an inheritance. And that

17:25

was about it. That changed. And

17:25

he became a much bigger part of

17:31

the story. How did that come

17:31

about?

17:33

Well, so I Coop was

17:33

just actually never going to be

17:37

part of the story at all. He was

17:37

just going to be an old man in

17:41

a, you know, on the photos on

17:41

the the mantel and but the house

17:47

that the house had cube

17:47

commissioned back in 1920. He I

17:53

described it and a friend of

17:53

mine read that description and

17:55

said, I just need to know more

17:55

about this house. And so I tried

17:59

a variety of ways to talk about

17:59

the house and tell the story of

18:03

the house. And all of them were

18:03

horrible and contrived. And my

18:07

friend sent me that story. I

18:07

think it was by gosh, Virginia

18:13

Woolf may be about about the

18:13

ghosts wandering through the

18:16

house. But then she Virginia

18:16

Woolf had already done it right.

18:19

So I couldn't do it. And I tried

18:19

it from a number of different

18:22

ways. And I finally thought I

18:22

just need to know more about

18:26

Cooper who had this house built.

18:26

And I started writing his story.

18:31

I always thought, okay, he was

18:31

he owned a coal mine. And that's

18:33

where the fortune came from it

18:33

this sort of hidden fortune that

18:37

the Modern Family, they they

18:37

kind of wondered where it went

18:40

like was it all spent. Anyway,

18:40

Cooper had the house built. And

18:47

I had I realized I had to know

18:47

his story in order to talk about

18:50

the house. And the more I

18:50

started putting together the

18:54

story of Cooper tiller, the more

18:54

interesting he became. And then

18:58

the more I started studying that

18:58

period, he was born in 1880. I'd

19:02

always expected him to be the

19:02

owner of a coal mine, but I

19:06

decided that he was going to be

19:06

born really poor. And so how

19:10

does a poor farm boy end up

19:10

owning a coal mine? And how does

19:13

he know how to make it coal

19:13

mine? Profitable it which is a

19:18

very complicated story, but

19:18

again, very fascinating to me

19:24

anyway. And so when I started

19:24

doing, putting his character

19:30

sketch together, he just became

19:30

so interesting. And I knew he

19:34

had to be a major part of the

19:34

book. Was he ruthless?

19:37

Initially, I planned him to be

19:37

just sort of Yeah, like this

19:40

gruff, stereotypical, very

19:40

wealthy businessman from the

19:45

turn of the 20th century. But

19:45

that was just boring. You know,

19:50

it was just such a stereotype.

19:50

And I wanted him to be a lot, a

19:55

lot more interesting as a

19:55

character. And then, as I did

19:58

that, I saw ways I could make

19:58

him more interesting and more

20:01

interesting and more

20:01

interesting. And so no, I don't

20:04

think he's ruthless. I think

20:04

he's a very good person. He has

20:07

his flaws for sure. But he's not

20:07

ruthless.

20:11

And I'll tell you

20:11

it the ruthlessness is a

20:14

stereotype. It's actually for

20:14

good reason. I, I really love to

20:17

study US history from basically

20:17

1800 to 1900. Because it's

20:24

amazing. I mean, we think there

20:24

have been amazing changes since

20:26

the 1900s. Today, and, and there

20:26

were, but that was a really

20:31

interesting time period for the

20:31

country just because it was such

20:34

a new new country and was really

20:34

on the precipice of collapsing a

20:39

lot. And when they I found

20:39

interesting are people like farm

20:44

boys who became

20:44

multimillionaires one way or

20:48

another? And they were all

20:48

pretty not nice people. Yeah,

20:54

the Vanderbilts were not the

20:54

sweetest people. And there's the

20:58

railroad barons, I could go on

20:58

and on, right, I'm sure there

21:01

was some some great folks. Even

21:01

Andrew Carnegie, who was nice

21:03

enough to build a library in

21:03

every town across the country.

21:06

wasn't such a nice guy. I guess

21:06

later, he decided to give some

21:10

people some books, but you Yeah.

21:10

So yeah, I agree with you. It

21:16

probably wasn't a good idea,

21:16

because there's a stereotype.

21:18

But as I say, many types, many

21:18

times stereotypes do exist for a

21:23

reason at times.

21:24

Exactly. Yeah, I'm

21:24

aware of that, too. But I coupe

21:27

was just, I was too fond of him

21:27

to make him just that kind of a

21:30

character. So

21:32

well, let's go

21:32

beyond the blurb. And aside from

21:36

what you were going to read, in

21:36

online about the story, give us

21:41

as be as much beyond that as you

21:41

can, obviously without telling

21:47

us the whole damn thing,

21:48

right. So you know,

21:48

it's it's about Darcy Darcy is

21:54

the great grandson in the modern

21:54

day, and Darcy's grandmother has

21:59

just died. And her death, it

21:59

turns out, released the, the

22:06

state the inheritance. And so

22:06

Darcy and his sisters, discover

22:10

that they are about to inherit

22:10

this immense fortune that Cooper

22:14

Tiller left if he structured his

22:14

will, in such a way, as I said,

22:18

and there's a reason for that,

22:18

too. And so, but there's

22:21

somebody else in New York City

22:21

saying no, actually, I own this

22:24

estate. And so who is this

22:24

person? How do they relate to

22:29

the family like what they've

22:29

been waiting for this money

22:32

their whole lives, they just

22:32

kind of assumed it was gone.

22:35

Like maybe it wasn't as much

22:35

money as they expected, and it

22:38

didn't spent, but they coop sets

22:38

out, or Darcy rather sets out to

22:45

find this man. And he it leads

22:45

him to he doesn't follow the

22:51

clues necessarily to find out

22:51

about his great grandfather's

22:54

life. But it leads him to people

22:54

who can tell him about his great

22:58

grandfather, and he doesn't make

22:58

some discoveries of his own. But

23:02

Darcy never knew anything about

23:02

Cooper, you know, he just was

23:05

the old man and pictures. And

23:05

he's amazed by the story that he

23:10

learns about his great

23:10

grandfather and the reality of

23:12

his life. And that because Darcy

23:12

and Cooper are very similar,

23:17

although neither, you know,

23:17

Cooper died, you know, a good

23:21

2030 years before Darcy was

23:21

born. And Darcy is not aware of

23:26

his similarities to his great

23:26

grandfather, but I had a lot of

23:29

fun writing them separately, and

23:29

then tying them together in

23:34

these really interesting ways.

23:34

So for example, one thing Darcy

23:39

has a very instant connection

23:39

with animals. Well, he doesn't

23:43

know that. But he he inherited

23:43

that from coop. So you know,

23:48

it's just like fun things like

23:48

that. But also more important

23:50

there. They're both very

23:50

confident of their ability to

23:54

conquer skills. But they both

23:54

have very little faith in their

24:00

emotional inert life. And they

24:00

have a very hard time with

24:05

relationships and love. So Well,

24:08

part of the story

24:08

with Darcy learning things about

24:12

coop as the story goes along.

24:12

The story is nonlinear. Correct?

24:16

Yeah. Which sometimes is

24:16

difficult for me, but when it's

24:20

done well, that's the way you do

24:20

I really enjoy it. And best I

24:24

can do think of movies as to

24:24

movies. I like Pulp Fiction is

24:28

one of my all time favorite. And

24:28

then there's one I think I'm one

24:31

of the few people that like it,

24:31

it's a book called go or a movie

24:34

called Go which really kind of

24:34

was a rip off of of Pulp

24:38

Fiction, but I still like it.

24:38

And they are nonlinear. I liked

24:43

the way they did it. But was did

24:43

you plan on being there that way

24:50

or did again just as coop

24:50

developed, happen?

24:54

It just happened but

24:54

it you know when you say that in

24:58

linear it's true that we go back

24:58

and forth in Time. For the end,

25:02

there's a little bit of time

25:02

shifting within this the the two

25:05

parallel stories itself

25:05

themselves, but, but I think you

25:11

can follow the progression of

25:11

each of the characters fairly

25:14

easily. So, but I didn't want to

25:14

do this again, Brad, I'm

25:18

constantly doing this with my

25:18

characters, older characters,

25:22

younger characters parallel

25:22

stories. And I don't, I never

25:26

set out to do that, in fact, but

25:26

I'm aware now that this is my

25:31

preferred style of writing. And

25:31

I intentionally set out to not

25:36

write this story this way. But I

25:36

could not just leave coop, I had

25:40

to, I had to write about it. So.

25:42

And that's really

25:42

interesting, because the last

25:44

time that you were on this show,

25:44

we talked about the fact that

25:48

you enjoy writing

25:48

intergenerational stories. Yeah.

25:51

And while this is a case where

25:51

Darcy and Koop didn't know each

25:56

other, it was still very much an

25:56

intergenerational story. And are

26:00

you thinking that it sounds

26:00

almost like you just said,

26:03

you're kind of saying that's the

26:03

path you're going to take? Well,

26:07

maybe not all the time. But

26:08

yeah, I mean, I enjoy

26:08

doing it, because I love weaving

26:12

these generations together. And

26:12

I think we, you know, these,

26:16

these things that happen in the

26:16

past have an influence on us

26:19

that we're not even aware of

26:19

most of the time. And I find it

26:22

really, I, you know, I've

26:22

discovered some things in my own

26:25

life about my own grandmother.

26:25

And the way my dad acted, my dad

26:29

was had a very big terror of his

26:29

children being in water. And

26:34

then I found out my dad died,

26:34

probably by 2008. And I found

26:40

out just a couple of years ago

26:40

that my grandmother, his mother,

26:43

her older brother, had drowned

26:43

in like, 1907 or something. And

26:50

so I think, Oh, my God, like,

26:50

that's where my dad got the

26:53

terror of water. He got it from

26:53

his mom whose brother drowned.

26:57

So you know, it's just like, I

26:57

love exploring those kinds of

27:00

connections. So, but I'm really

27:00

going to try and not do it for

27:05

this next one. In fact, I really

27:05

don't see how I could actually.

27:11

You're gonna have to have your husband hold your hands when you start to go that

27:12

route? Yes. So are you kind of

27:20

big on ancestry?

27:21

Well, I mean, I

27:21

wouldn't say that I'm big on it.

27:24

No, I'm just fascinated by the

27:24

past. And I'm fascinated by the

27:27

way the past influences us.

27:27

Yeah. I don't know what you

27:30

mean, specifically by ancestry.

27:30

So I mean, like, do I study my

27:36

own? Yeah. Oh, I would say no, I

27:36

know, that people my family

27:41

have. And there are some

27:41

interesting question marks

27:45

there. We don't we're not really

27:45

sure who my grandfather was. on

27:48

my mom's side. But, and there's

27:48

some reasons for that. But in

27:52

the story, my mom told me all

27:52

her life until she was like in

27:55

her 90s, and finally revealed

27:55

the truth was not the truth. And

28:00

so but I haven't studied that.

28:00

No,

28:02

well, it is amazing. Some of the things that come up. My husband, Maurice is

28:04

very interested in ancestral

28:10

history. And his is very

28:10

different, difficult, because

28:13

he, his family's Creole. So you

28:13

had that era where the French

28:18

elite in New Orleans may have

28:18

had a black wife per se, but she

28:25

was not allowed to be part of

28:25

society. And then once he

28:28

married, she just kind of tossed

28:28

aside there. That all history is

28:32

kind of hard. And plus, it was a

28:32

very poor area, so that history

28:37

is kind of hard to, to dig up.

28:37

But in the process, he's he's

28:40

dug up a lot of my history and

28:40

like, he'll put one of my

28:43

ancestors in there and then just

28:43

explode Boom. Oh, there's this

28:48

tie in with all these other

28:48

ancestors that he's absolutely

28:51

fascinated by for my family's

28:51

past. I'm like, Oh, okay. But

28:58

there are interesting things

28:58

like I, you know, I found out my

29:00

grandmother was not my

29:00

grandmother, and my aunt and

29:02

uncle. Were not my aunt and

29:02

uncle. Yeah. Life is very.

29:07

Right. And so that has gotten me

29:07

a little more interested than I

29:10

would have been. But

29:13

yeah, yes. That

29:13

discovery about my grandfather

29:15

was pretty amazing. Because my

29:15

mom had always told us that he

29:20

died right before she was born.

29:20

But it turns out, and then

29:25

nobody's quite sure who he was

29:25

and when he died or anything,

29:29

so.

29:30

Yeah. Well, you're

29:30

more you can tell us about

29:33

Darcy.

29:34

Yeah, well, Darcy is

29:34

a an interesting character. He's

29:39

one of these guys who moved to

29:39

San Francisco when he's a young

29:44

and because he's very interested

29:44

in the idea of living in a city

29:47

with a lot of gay man, because

29:47

it's a place for him to go party

29:51

and meet guys and have a lot of

29:51

sex. But guys like that can burn

29:55

out. I mean, I'm not saying that

29:55

they don't have a good life, you

29:59

know, for the Part of years and

29:59

maybe some of them make it into

30:02

something more substantial later

30:02

in life, but they can, they can

30:07

wake up one day. I've seen this

30:07

happen several times here in San

30:10

Francisco where a guy wakes up

30:10

and it's like, oh, shit, you

30:14

know, he's a lot closer to 40

30:14

than he used to 20. He's a lot

30:17

closer to 50. Even then he is.

30:17

And all he's been doing this

30:21

whole time is partying, he's got

30:21

no money. He's, you know, he's

30:25

got a dead end job. And he

30:25

panics and then he gets out of

30:29

town. And I've seen that happen

30:29

several times to some of my

30:32

friends. And so I think he has

30:32

that kind of an interesting

30:38

background. I had a lot in there

30:38

about his family and his

30:42

relationship with his sisters.

30:42

But I took a lot of that out

30:45

because I don't know how Jane

30:45

Austen wrote Pride and Prejudice

30:50

with five sisters and made it

30:50

work. I just, I just don't be

30:55

it's it's so hard to juggle

30:55

those characters. And people

30:58

were very confused by them. So I

30:58

ended up taking a lot of that

31:01

out and shortening that story

31:01

substantially. So but he's a

31:05

he's an interesting guy, too.

31:05

But, but he his his

31:09

accomplishments are good for

31:09

him. You know, he and he does

31:14

manage to support himself for a

31:14

while anyway. But they're

31:17

nothing at all as expansive as

31:17

what coop experience, but coop

31:22

got lucky because of where he

31:22

ended up. So

31:25

I don't know why

31:25

you keep reminding me of old

31:27

movies. But you are. I don't

31:27

know if you remember. Lifeguard

31:33

I think it was 1976 had Sam

31:33

Elliot in it.

31:37

Oh, God, I don't

31:37

think I ever saw that movie. But

31:40

yes, I remember it like, Oh, my

31:40

God is having such a huge crush

31:44

on San Elliot.

31:47

As I recall, it

31:47

wasn't a very good movie. But

31:50

the reason why he made me think

31:50

about it is Sam Elliott wakes up

31:55

one day and realizes he's kind

31:55

of this middle aged guy who's

31:59

still a lifeguard. And you know,

31:59

you can't be a lifeguard when

32:03

you're 70. So what are you gonna

32:03

do with your life? And what

32:07

you're talking about, like some

32:07

of the, I don't want to say

32:10

circuit, guys, but some of the

32:10

guys that are partiers and have

32:14

a great time. Large number of

32:14

them do that for a few years,

32:18

and they go out, you know, get

32:18

their fun out and go on with

32:21

their life. But the ones that

32:21

stay that way. Like you said,

32:23

it's like one day they realize

32:23

like, No, I'm driving an ice

32:27

cream truck. Right? Yeah. Yeah.

32:27

It's sad to see that happen.

32:33

Yeah. Well, yeah. And

32:33

it was sad that Sam Elliott said

32:36

that thing about the power of

32:36

the dog, I really was

32:39

disappointed. I was like, Are

32:39

you? Did you hear about that? He

32:42

was complaining about that

32:42

movie? No, he said it was like

32:45

to gay or something like that.

32:45

And it was like, Sam Elliot,

32:49

come on, like all of these gay

32:49

boys, who were your you know,

32:52

who were madly in love with you

32:52

in the 70s. He did apologize for

32:56

it later, but I was still disappointed in

32:58

him. I think actors

32:58

have gotten much smarter. Ryan

33:04

Reynolds, who? I have no doubt

33:04

he's straight. But I could be

33:08

wrong. He knows how to play that

33:08

up. And he plays it a big time.

33:13

Yeah. And I don't think in the

33:13

70s they were as likely to do

33:16

that. Well,

33:17

no, they weren't. But

33:17

he didn't say this in the 70s.

33:19

He said this, like last, you

33:19

know, in the last few months. So

33:24

it was like, Yeah, I mean, he

33:24

probably wouldn't have really

33:27

been aware of it in the 70s. But

33:27

he should be aware of it by now

33:30

for God's sake. So

33:32

he was maybe older mentality.

33:34

Maybe maybe because

33:34

he was super hot.

33:37

Oh, yes, he was.

33:37

And I'm going to totally throw

33:41

us off the rails here because I

33:41

have to tell my Ryan Reynolds

33:45

story. Okay. My husband Maurice,

33:45

and I were driving through Santa

33:48

Monica, and we stopped at a stop

33:48

sign. And going across the

33:53

crosswalk was Ryan Reynolds. And

33:53

of course, we flipped out and I

33:59

haven't lived in LA this long.

33:59

It's very rare that a celebrity

34:04

I'll even bat an eye. Oh, Ryan

34:04

has a different story. I've been

34:07

wanting to get into his pants

34:07

for years. So to be quite

34:11

honest, but he had this little

34:11

fluffy dog he was walking and we

34:15

looked at each other and we're

34:15

like, oh my God, he's gay.

34:21

Sadly, it was a few months later

34:21

that I saw him in Alanis

34:25

Morrisette back when they were

34:25

together, playing with a dog and

34:28

it was a Alanis Morrisette's dog

34:28

for a few months. I got to

34:32

believe that not that every

34:32

street man that has a fluffy not

34:36

that every man that has a fluffy

34:36

dog is gay or in my mind went to

34:39

exactly where I want it to go.

34:39

So for those few months, my

34:43

fantasy was was thoroughly

34:43

enjoyed.

34:47

I have to look Ryan

34:47

Reynolds up I don't know who he

34:49

is to be quite well, I know the

34:49

name but I just yeah, I'm not

34:54

really up on celebrity culture

34:54

to be quite honest. I mean, I

34:57

don't mean that in any kind of

34:57

snobby way. I just I am busy.

35:01

I will only tell

35:01

tell you this there are a lot of

35:07

incredibly attractive men in

35:07

this world. Ryan is not only

35:12

attractive. He is hysterically

35:12

funny and damn charming.

35:16

Okay, three to three together. I don't

35:16

know how they could not love

35:19

him. Okay Yeah. Yeah, if he was an

35:22

asshole. It'd be a whole

35:25

different. I'd say there's a hot

35:25

looking asshole. But he's the

35:29

total package in my opinion.

35:29

Okay, great. So Darcy has had I

35:36

don't know about love interest

35:36

that he has. He longs for Jake

35:42

tester. Right. Right. Who is

35:42

Jake and tell us tell us about

35:46

that little entanglement there?

35:47

Well, Jake is his

35:47

grandmother's gardener who keeps

35:51

this gigantic lancha grandmother

35:51

grows up and lives her whole

35:55

life. It turns out in the house

35:55

that coop built, but Jake is the

36:01

gardener Darcy has the hots for

36:01

him the first time they saw each

36:04

other. Darcy thought, oh my god,

36:04

we had this connection. But then

36:08

like Jake was suddenly gone. And

36:08

Darcy was just visiting. So he

36:12

went back to San Francisco. But

36:12

so he's kind of been standoffish

36:17

with Jake for a while. He's

36:17

still the gardener. And he's

36:19

still taking care of his

36:19

grandmother's lawn, even though

36:21

she's just died. So that he he

36:21

decides because he's having this

36:27

moment of like, I'm gonna go out

36:27

and find who is trying to take

36:30

away our inheritance. And he's

36:30

just feeling this moment of

36:33

determination. And he makes a

36:33

pass at Jake, and then Jake

36:36

accepts it. So that's that's who

36:36

the J character is. But there's

36:39

some complications there. And it

36:39

is through coop coop story that

36:46

Darcy eventually learns to maybe

36:46

open up with a Jake and and

36:52

maybe try to make something of

36:52

so. So it has a hopeful

36:57

ending. Please tell

36:57

me that Kook doesn't come back

36:59

from the dead and tries to get in the way.

37:01

He does not know.

37:04

We're not talking to parents. And I have no problem a paranormal this right?

37:06

Yep. It just doesn't sound

37:09

paranormal. Yeah, I kind of knew

37:09

the answer to that one before.

37:14

You did one interesting thing.

37:14

And it's not a huge part of the

37:18

story. But there has been major,

37:18

major debate in writers groups,

37:24

and even in readers group. And

37:24

that concerns COVID. Writers are

37:31

telling me I think most writers

37:31

are telling me they're gonna

37:34

ignore it, at least for now.

37:34

Because they don't think people

37:36

want to hear it. Maybe down the

37:36

road, they will. And they're

37:39

either skipping the years over

37:39

COVID, or they're just writing

37:42

like it doesn't exist. Readers

37:42

are kind of conflicted as well.

37:46

They think, well, it's part of

37:46

history should be there. And I

37:49

had actually a one time one now

37:49

I've had two separate readers

37:54

say, we don't want to see COVID

37:54

In your book. In fact, one I

37:58

don't know where she got the

37:58

idea. She said, I'm sorry,

38:00

Brett, I love your books, I will

38:00

not be able to read the next

38:03

one. Because you said COVID is

38:03

going to be in there. And I'm

38:05

like, I don't know when the hell

38:05

I ever said that. But no, I

38:09

don't, I probably won't be. But

38:09

you made the choice to put it in

38:12

there. Why? Well,

38:14

because of the

38:14

timing. So his grandmother was

38:19

Grandma Millie who just died was

38:19

getting pretty old. So I really

38:25

couldn't push it too much into

38:25

the future. And it was also a

38:30

good plot element because it's

38:30

Darcy's parents died of COVID,

38:34

the first summer of COVID. And

38:34

it just kind of worked out. And

38:38

but that's the extent of COVID.

38:38

Will also Darcy loses his job in

38:43

San Francisco because of COVID.

38:43

And he has to move back. But he

38:46

was going to move back anyway to

38:46

help his grandma. But so it's an

38:51

element in there. I can

38:51

understand people being sick of

38:54

it at this point. But there's

38:54

there's gonna be a lot of

38:57

stories about these these paths.

38:57

Coming out, it may take a few

39:02

years before somebody writes the

39:02

right one. But yeah,

39:06

somebody suggested

39:06

to me I can't remember who was

39:09

he wasn't writer. He said, I

39:09

think a good idea for you.

39:13

Actually, it was a different

39:13

podcast that I was on. But it

39:16

had nothing to do with writing.

39:16

It was personal stuff. And he

39:19

said, I think you should write a

39:19

story about COVID Now, while

39:25

it's fresh in your head, but

39:25

don't release it for 10 years.

39:28

Oh, interesting that that. I

39:28

said that's a good idea. Yeah.

39:32

Cuz then, you know, 10 years, we

39:32

might be used ready to read it.

39:35

And now it's fresh in my head.

39:35

But I don't know. I don't know

39:37

if I'm in the mood to write about it.

39:39

Yeah, I think we're

39:39

all just ready to move on.

39:41

Right? Yeah. Like really ready

39:41

to move on?

39:47

Yes. Yeah,

39:47

absolutely. Now, the last time

39:50

you were on, we talked about you

39:50

working in production for PBS.

39:57

And I asked you about writing

39:57

and you use that there wasn't

40:00

really a transition from writing

40:00

to television because you kind

40:06

of always knew you wanted to be

40:06

a writer. Knowing that you

40:10

wanted to be a writer, why did

40:10

you choose to major in political

40:14

science in college? Which seems

40:14

like it would be more of what

40:18

would have drawn you to television?

40:20

Well, so I, when I

40:20

was God, I was 20 years old. I

40:26

was very persistent about

40:28

five years ago.

40:31

Add a few decades to

40:31

that. But I was very persistent.

40:36

I, I interviewed for this job at

40:36

the local NBC affiliate in

40:40

Cleveland, Wk yc. And at the

40:40

time, it was the Oh, no. So it

40:45

was owned directly by NBC. But I

40:45

spent every week I called and

40:51

asked for an update on if they

40:51

were going to have a position

40:55

for me. And after a year, they

40:55

finally hired me, and I was

40:59

already I was a sophomore, at

40:59

least in college. And at that

41:06

point, like the, the college was

41:06

not a career path for me

41:11

anymore, because I was worried I

41:11

was on my career path at work.

41:14

So I thought, I'll just study

41:14

anything I'm interested in. So

41:18

that's why it took me an extra

41:18

year to finish because I changed

41:21

majors a number of times, and I

41:21

ended up I was very, very

41:24

interested in in politics back

41:24

then. And super interested in

41:28

Middle Eastern politics. And so

41:28

that's what I studied. And it

41:33

was just because I had the

41:33

luxury of studying something I

41:37

was interested in.

41:38

So you've ended up

41:38

in public television and Public

41:41

Radio. Do you think that you

41:41

enjoy that more than you would

41:46

in commercial?

41:48

Oh, no question, w

41:49

hy, and why is that?

41:50

No question about it.

41:50

Because the in commercial

41:53

television it was, I was working

41:53

in news, right. So it's not like

41:57

I was right working for

41:57

entertainment. I was working for

42:00

NBC News. And I don't know if I

42:00

should say, the network. But but

42:07

but the the commitment there was

42:07

to the ratings, it was just all

42:11

about ratings. And they serving

42:11

the audience with information

42:16

with interesting shows, with

42:16

things that to engage them

42:20

intellectually treating them

42:20

with respect. Those things

42:24

didn't exist, at least what what

42:24

I saw they weren't there. And

42:29

when I went to PBS, and NPR,

42:29

this was a several years after I

42:33

left NBC, I had sort of a foray

42:33

back into television. When I

42:38

moved to San Francisco, I did

42:38

some I was a print reporter.

42:41

Thank God, I didn't I got out of

42:41

that. I'd be homeless by now.

42:44

But and then I was doing

42:44

marketing and but you know, I

42:49

just as soon as I walked into

42:49

those doors at KQED, it was all

42:54

about like, what, what is

42:54

interesting and informative for

42:59

our audience, it was all about

42:59

serving the audience. I mean,

43:02

that all the time. But most of

43:02

the time, that was what was

43:06

driving us, it still is. And

43:06

that I love that environment. I

43:11

really hated the way in

43:11

commercial TV the audience was,

43:16

people were contemptuous of the

43:16

audience. I saw. Why are you so

43:20

contemptuous of these people?

43:20

Like why do you call them these

43:24

names? They're, you know,

43:24

they're our audience for God's

43:27

sake. And that that atmosphere

43:27

does not exist at PBS and NPR,

43:31

at least doesn't that I've seen?

43:33

Well, I don't know

43:33

what time period it was that you

43:36

got involved in public

43:36

television. But I remember back

43:42

when networks had a news

43:42

division, and an entertainment

43:48

division, right. And I can't

43:48

remember what never, I'm gonna

43:53

say NBC, but I don't know for a

43:53

fact I probably shouldn't even

43:55

mention their name. I remember

43:55

one of the networks was the

43:58

first to announce as a cost

43:58

saving measure, measure. We're

44:03

going to combine the two

44:03

divisions together. And that is

44:07

really when I think we saw

44:07

things spiral downward. There's,

44:13

there's no such thing as

44:13

unbiased news. Because just

44:17

deciding what shows are

44:17

newsworthy or what stories are

44:21

newsworthy, there's a biased in

44:21

there, but you certainly can do

44:24

the best you can. Right. And I

44:24

think back then they used to and

44:27

that's not true anymore. No, it

44:27

isn't. Not in any kind of shape

44:31

or form. So it is sad to have

44:31

seen that happen in especially

44:35

nowadays. I mean, nobody's

44:35

learning anything if you if

44:39

you're liberal, liberal, you

44:39

watch Rachel Maddow, and that's

44:42

who all you watch and if you're

44:42

conservative and even crazy

44:46

conservative watch Tucker

44:46

Carlson then that's your only

44:49

listening to what you want to

44:49

hear. And I don't think that's

44:54

healthy.

44:55

No, there's a lot

44:55

that's not healthy going on

44:57

right now. I mean, I just said

44:57

If you're just a little bit

45:01

there, I think that people if

45:01

you're conservative, you only

45:05

listen to conservative news. I

45:05

don't. I think that people were

45:09

conditioned to listen to what

45:09

they want to hear. I don't think

45:13

that it's gravitated towards

45:13

anything. I think they were

45:16

conditioned for what they

45:16

wanted. And I don't know, I'm

45:20

not explaining this. Well, I

45:20

haven't thought it through very

45:22

carefully. But I think that it

45:22

doesn't mean because you watch

45:26

Tucker Carlson that you're like,

45:26

down the line it Republican and

45:29

you all support Republicans, and

45:29

you support Trump. And it

45:33

doesn't mean that like, there's

45:33

still a lot. It's even like Q

45:37

anon and all these crazy

45:37

conspiracy theories that are

45:40

going on today. I think we make

45:40

a mistake when we write those

45:43

people off, because a lot of

45:43

those people aren't even

45:47

particularly political. It seems

45:47

kind of crazy. But that's the

45:50

truth. They're just not. And not

45:50

I'm not saying that the leaders

45:55

aren't. But I'm saying that the

45:55

people who are involved and then

45:58

wrapped up in these things,

45:58

they're not as political maybe

46:01

as we think they are. I think

46:01

they just, it's just kind of a

46:05

group dynamics, tribal, tribal

46:05

politics, you know, and I think

46:11

that they are still very

46:11

reachable. I'm not that I have

46:14

the insight and knowledge to

46:14

reach them. But they are, and I

46:19

think we should be trying to. So

46:22

in actually Dharma

46:22

Kelleher and I talked about that

46:24

last week that regardless of

46:24

what kind of let's see, the

46:29

leaders have particular parties

46:29

are people, the general public

46:34

or just connecting with people

46:34

that feel the way they do,

46:37

right. And it's, it's not

46:37

particularly news that they just

46:41

like comfort, there's that

46:41

comfort level of, you know,

46:44

your, regardless of what side of

46:44

the aisle you're on, I'm not

46:47

gonna go there. But we're more

46:47

comfortable with people that

46:50

think like us. And I think

46:50

people tend on both sides,

46:52

they'll tend to be thinking a

46:52

lot more radical, for lack of

46:57

better word. I hate to use that

46:57

word, but extremely. Yeah,

47:01

extremist. And I think that's

47:01

what it comes down to. I don't

47:04

think that's huge. There. I'm

47:04

not big on conspiracy theories,

47:07

because people talk and but

47:07

let's say there's some wider

47:12

winds going on overall, it's

47:12

just people taking advantage of

47:15

what they're seeing. And they're

47:15

telling people what they want to

47:18

hear. Yeah, so yeah, that could

47:18

be that's a whole different

47:22

story.

47:22

It is a whole

47:22

different topic, but it's an

47:24

interesting one, but it's a

47:24

whole different topic.

47:29

So you were with

47:29

public television, back in 1994,

47:35

when Tales of the City came out,

47:37

I think it was just

47:37

after Tales of the City. I think

47:40

tales came out in 93.

47:42

Okay, yeah. When

47:42

did you start? 94? Okay, so you

47:46

definitely felt the impact? Yes.

47:46

Because they were in serious

47:51

trouble after that happen? Well,

47:51

yeah. the Senate was ready to

47:54

yank out every penny.

47:56

Yeah. Well, you know,

47:56

the thing is for KQED, that the

48:01

money that people pay for taxes

48:01

that come to KQED is, in fact

48:06

that come to CPP or NPR is tiny,

48:06

it's very small and KQED had

48:12

never gets more than like, 10%

48:12

of our money from those sources.

48:17

So it was like, it wasn't as

48:17

scary for us. But there were a

48:22

lot of little stations that it

48:22

was a big threat to them to have

48:25

federal funding poll, but

48:25

thankfully, it wasn't. But there

48:28

was a lot of controversy that

48:28

with Marlon Riggs, the Tongues

48:32

Untied, that documentary about

48:32

African American gay men. That

48:36

got a lot of criticism. It was a

48:36

beautiful Doc, you know, and

48:40

Tales of the City really wasn't

48:40

that risque. As far as I was

48:43

concerned. It was great, but I

48:43

think it may have been the first

48:47

like romantic same sex like real

48:47

same sex kiss on TV that came

48:53

out of tales but it wasn't like

48:53

you know, graphic sex or

48:57

anything like that, but

48:59

okay, but it was

48:59

more than a kiss. We saw men

49:01

naked in bath houses. We saw

49:01

people openly doing drugs and

49:05

not done in a negative way. They

49:05

just did drugs and right now I'm

49:10

gonna disagree with you. I think

49:10

it was a I think was a big step.

49:14

Well, I don't I don't

49:14

remember naked men and bath

49:16

houses and Tales of the City. I

49:16

mean, not the original one. It

49:21

may have been Brad, I'm not

49:21

saying that you're wrong. I just

49:23

I don't remember that. I

49:23

remember that kiss. And I

49:26

remember because this is people

49:26

were still making appointment

49:30

TV. You were what everyone was

49:30

watching the same episode at the

49:33

same time. I remember getting

49:33

calls from straight friends

49:36

saying oh my god, there was a

49:36

gay kiss I TV so but I don't

49:41

remember all the rest of that

49:41

but but you could be right I

49:45

don't remember. We

49:46

watched it not too

49:46

long ago and I'm almost certain

49:50

there was some nudity because

49:50

the guy that played rocketeer

49:53

that does he both my husband and

49:53

I had crushes on him long ago

49:56

and I kept waiting for him to be

49:56

naked. It never happened very

50:02

But I think we're anticipating

50:02

that because there was other

50:04

nudity shown in the story, but

50:04

anyway, okay, it still was it

50:08

was still was way beyond its

50:08

years. Yes, it was. And what I

50:13

found interesting with that is

50:13

you and I've discussed this

50:16

before, that I remember growing

50:16

up PBS was opera symphonies. And

50:25

the whole reason that I recall,

50:25

saying there was public support

50:31

for public media was to protect

50:31

these classics that were going

50:40

away. And you'd be hard pressed

50:40

to find an opera on PBS these

50:46

days. It's changed dramatically,

50:46

we have Tales of the City and,

50:54

and I actually Saturday Night

50:54

Live did a really funny skit

50:59

years ago. And it was a it was

50:59

probably one of the biggest

51:02

routines I remember them doing.

51:02

I have not been able to find it

51:05

anywhere online. They had

51:05

flashing neon lights, they had

51:08

people singing and dancing. And

51:08

it was supposedly a PBS.

51:13

Commercial about we're not

51:13

stuffy anymore. And what made it

51:20

brilliant was the next week the

51:20

president of PBS came on and

51:24

assured the public, they are

51:24

stuffy and always will be

51:29

stuffy. Which made it even more

51:29

funny. Yeah. Do you ever see

51:36

going back to what I recall is

51:36

perfectly what I hear on as far

51:42

as NPR, public radio is almost

51:42

entirely news.

51:46

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

51:46

I mean, KQED is an all new

51:50

station. And do I see it going

51:50

back to like, are we talking

51:54

about NPR, PBS here?

51:56

Really? Kind of

51:56

both? But let's go with NPR.

51:59

Well, NPR is started

51:59

as a new service that stations

52:04

like KQED with just sort of feed

52:04

out to their public using this,

52:09

you know, the local signals.

52:09

But, you know, we do a lot of

52:13

local news and information

52:13

programming, I KQED. Public

52:17

Radio, I can't see that ever

52:17

changing. It used to be that

52:21

KQED ran on the radio, like a

52:21

lot of bluegrass and a lot of

52:26

you know, like you said up or a

52:26

different classical music. But I

52:30

can't see us going back to that

52:30

we've become too important as a

52:34

new source, just because some

52:34

we've lost so many reliable news

52:39

sources in the last 20 years.

52:39

And people turn rely on KQED in

52:44

Northern California, because

52:44

because there's no other real

52:49

source of that kind of intense

52:49

focus on local news and

52:53

information. So I don't think

52:53

for KQED there's no going back.

52:58

I will tell you

52:58

this in the podcasting world,

53:00

all the different groups and

53:00

that sort of thing when you talk

53:04

about podcasting, and you talk

53:04

about the cream of the crop, NPR

53:11

is always up there. Good. It's

53:11

always the kind of the crop. Now

53:14

I will argue that whether or not

53:14

they're actually podcasts,

53:17

because they are shows that

53:17

ended up being podcasting, like,

53:21

but there's still you can't deny

53:21

that beautifully done.

53:25

Well, I understand

53:25

what you mean about just turning

53:27

shows into his streaming audio

53:27

file, and that makes it a

53:31

podcast. I understand what

53:31

you're saying there. But we also

53:34

KQED produces a number of very

53:34

interesting podcasts that never

53:39

air so so we do have a podcast

53:39

inventory that is not just taken

53:45

from our on air shows, but a lot

53:45

our Yes, yes,

53:48

I agree with you.

53:48

There are I will say wait, wait,

53:51

don't tell me I love it every

53:51

week here. But then they put it

53:55

on his podcast and it is not a

53:55

podcast, but that's a whole

53:57

different. I'm glad they do

53:57

because I rarely can listen to

54:00

it when when it's on anyway. But

54:00

right. That's, that's a whole

54:03

different story. So the name of

54:03

the book is inherit the

54:06

lightning. Yes. And here it is

54:06

out now. By it.

54:11

Yeah, gave him at

54:11

bold strokes books. You can go

54:14

there if you don't want to go to

54:14

the you know, feed the gigantic

54:17

octopus, but it is available

54:17

every other place. So as of

54:22

today,

54:23

we know the big guy

54:23

as him but go to Bold Stroke

54:27

books.

54:28

Yeah, they would they

54:28

would love to have you online.

54:31

And if you know, like there's a

54:31

lot of a lot of writers at bold

54:35

strokes who are very

54:35

interesting, mostly LGBT, and

54:41

you know, you can find a lot of

54:41

interesting stuff there. So,

54:45

and I it is not an

54:45

exaggeration that we would not

54:49

see a lot of these outstanding

54:49

Authors, if it wasn't for some

54:53

of these small town presses.

54:54

3x true. Worth the

54:54

hell out of them. Yeah,

54:58

absolutely. Yeah,

54:59

well Thank you, but

54:59

it was great to have you on

55:01

again. I appreciate it.

55:03

Thank you, Brad. It

55:03

was a lot of fun to see you

55:05

again. And yeah, good luck with

55:05

everything. Oh, and

55:08

congratulations on being named

55:08

by BuzzFeed as one of the top

55:14

you have to you're gonna have to say that.

55:16

Well, it was one of

55:16

the top queer podcast as you go

55:23

about your queer day. I don't

55:23

know if I have that. Correct,

55:27

but it's pretty close.

55:28

But it's like one of

55:28

the top. It's like the top 20

55:31

podcasts. So it's like we're

55:31

really high up there.

55:34

Yes, yes. I do want

55:34

to do a shout out to my friends

55:37

over at the Big Gay fiction

55:37

podcast. They made the list. But

55:40

yes, they did. Good for you

55:40

guys, but I don't really care.

55:45

No, Jeff, and well have been

55:45

great to me from day one when I

55:48

started, but it was quite an

55:48

honor to be included on the list

55:52

with them. Yes, yeah, absolutely. So thank

55:52

you for mentioning that.

55:55

Yeah, you bet. So

55:55

yeah, thanks. Thanks for having

55:58

me again. Brad.