0:01

run a website and

0:01

Facebook group for LGBT seniors

0:06

and manage three podcasts at

0:06

once? Well, you know, the answer

0:09

is yes, I wouldn't ask. Mark

0:09

McNeese is coming right up. But

0:14

first I'm going to take a few

0:14

seconds to emphasize what Aisha

0:17

said at the beginning. I've had

0:17

a few people scheduled calls

0:19

with me, but I want more. Help

0:19

Queer Writers of Crime keep

0:23

getting better and better and

0:23

better. And shoot me an email

0:27

and let's talk. It's time

0:29

It's time to put on

0:29

your sleuthing cap seal

0:31

nailbiting dread and face heart

0:31

racing fear. This is Queer

0:36

Writers of Crime, where you'll

0:36

get book recommendations and

0:40

hear interviews with LGBTQ

0:40

authors of mystery, suspense and

0:45

thriller novels. Here's your

0:45

host, Brad Shreve.

0:51

Hi, this is Brad

0:51

Shreve, welcome. I've said this

0:53

many times about my guest today.

0:53

His book Death at Pride Lodge

0:58

was the very first queer mystery

0:58

novel that I'd ever read. Mark

1:04

is most known for both its Kyle

1:04

Callahan mysteries, and his

1:08

Marshall James thrillers which

1:08

we're going to talk about today.

1:11

And Mark Hello, welcome.

1:14

Welcome back to

1:14

you out there in Riverside,

1:18

California.

1:19

Well, I'm actually

1:19

up high above Riverside. I'm

1:22

okay. i You have to drive up

1:22

through the past and I'm up in

1:26

the desert.

1:27

And I am in the

1:27

woods in New Jersey. For anybody

1:31

who knows me knows that. But

1:31

yeah, I live in New York City,

1:34

longtime LA for a while and now

1:34

I live in the woods.

1:39

I think I'd rather be in the woods than the desert though. The desert is growing on

1:41

me. It's a different desert that

1:44

I'm used to love to scrub brush

1:44

and is it a dry heat. It's not

1:50

like Phoenix is what I'm used to

1:50

which is a dry heat and is

1:55

actually quite pretty. The red

1:55

rocks and that sort of thing.

1:58

This is a grayish scrub brush

1:58

Tumbleweed. Roy Rogers Peck

2:03

wrote this were Roy Rogers lived

2:03

and died type of deserts. So I

2:08

didn't like it at all first, but

2:08

it's grown on me. I like it much

2:11

better. And the mountains are

2:11

pretty good to see the beautiful

2:14

snowcapped mountains in the

2:14

distance. The great distance.

2:18

Yeah. But you can see him better

2:18

than you could in LA, which I

2:21

worked in an office for two

2:21

years. And that's about 18

2:25

months, two years. And I don't

2:25

smoke but I always went outside

2:29

with people when they smoked.

2:29

When they took their breaks. I

2:31

could chitchat. And one day I

2:31

turned around and I said, when

2:35

did that mountain get there? And

2:35

they're like, well, it's always

2:40

been there you just couldn't see

2:40

it to the smog. I said, I swear,

2:44

I never knew that much. And it

2:44

wasn't like a long distance

2:47

mountain. It was clear as day

2:47

that day because we had had a

2:51

rain. So Los Angeles is a much

2:51

better place than for smog than

2:57

it was like back in the 50s and

2:57

60s, but it has a way to go. It

3:02

has a way to go.

3:04

Well, I lived there. I lived in Hollywood for 12 years. I think you know,

3:07

yes, I do knew

3:07

that. I do know that very well.

3:10

Because when I read Murder at

3:10

the Paisley Parrot, you had

3:14

Hollywood down to a tee.

3:17

Yeah, I was

3:17

denizen of the Hollywood

3:20

streets. And then I learned just

3:20

today that I don't know if you

3:24

ever went to a different light

3:24

when it was in Silver Lake but

3:27

the the guy who really was sent

3:27

there to make it work was

3:31

Richard Labonte and he passed

3:31

away. Yeah. Michael Nava had

3:35

Michael Nava had put that on his

3:35

page. And I had known Richard

3:38

and I was I was sad that he

3:38

died. He was an early champion

3:43

of mine when I was writing for

3:43

short stories for a gay paper

3:47

throw away. Richard always was

3:47

just really encouraging. And I'm

3:51

sorry that he's gone.

3:54

Yeah, I saw Michael

3:54

Navas post about him. And I know

3:59

A Different Light bookstore. I

3:59

believe it was there when I was

4:02

here in Los Angeles. Do you know

4:02

what you're closed?

4:06

Well, it moved to West

4:06

Hollywood. It was in Silver Lake

4:09

when I was there in the 80s. And

4:09

then I moved to New York in the

4:13

early 90s. And it moved to West

4:13

Hollywood. I think it's survived

4:17

probably another 10 years or

4:17

more. And then they had one in

4:21

San Francisco. Of course, we're,

4:21

I believe that was the original

4:24

in San Francisco. And the one in

4:24

New York closed it was. I

4:28

remember that one too. And of

4:28

course, now they're all gone.

4:30

But it was still going when I

4:30

left LA.

4:33

Okay, now I'm I was

4:33

confused. Now. I totally get it.

4:38

Because when I read Michaels

4:38

Well, when I read the article

4:42

that Michael posted, I saw and I

4:42

thought I remember A Different

4:46

Light in West Hollywood, he must

4:46

have this wrong. Now it moved. I

4:52

had been there many many times.

4:52

Yeah. So yeah, that was a great

4:58

store. That's a great store.

4:58

It's done. that all three of

5:00

them are gone. Yeah, I remember

5:00

when la it closed and then I by

5:06

remember when New York was

5:06

actually in the national news

5:09

when it closed because it was

5:09

the last of the biggies. Mm hmm.

5:12

Very sad to see those go

5:14

along with a lot

5:14

of other things that represent

5:17

our, our historical experiences.

5:21

You know, that has

5:21

been a big theme on this show

5:23

lately.

5:24

Yeah, I listened to

5:24

your interview with Marshall.

5:27

And it was just really made me

5:27

think about things because even

5:32

here in New Hope I know this is

5:32

tangential but New Hope.

5:36

Pennsylvania is a really cool

5:36

town. Emeryville is really cool.

5:39

I set all my books here now, for

5:39

the most part, but it was a

5:43

thriving gay getaway for years

5:43

for people from the from New

5:47

York and Philadelphia. And they

5:47

had three gay bars, and they're

5:50

all gone now. It's like,

5:50

everything is gone. And that's

5:54

just life. You gotta you have to

5:54

learn to roll with it. But

5:58

there's a sadness to it.

6:00

We're really here

6:00

to talk about you, Mark.

6:03

It offers a segue into

6:03

the Marshall James thrillers, by

6:08

the way, because those are those

6:08

take place in the present in the

6:12

past. Do you want me to? Yeah,

6:12

go ahead. Yeah, Marshall, James.

6:16

First of all, it's a take on my

6:16

birth name. I'm adopted, Mark

6:19

McNeese. My birth name was James

6:19

Marshall, green. And I always

6:24

wanted to use the name somehow

6:24

without legally changing mine.

6:28

And I decided not to use a pen

6:28

name because I wanted, I work

6:33

hard for what I do. And I always

6:33

have been writing for for most

6:37

of my life, and I'm 63 now. So I

6:37

always wanted my name on what I

6:41

wrote, it's just me, I had no

6:41

reason to use a pen name. I

6:44

wasn't writing porn. And if even

6:44

if I did, I probably would still

6:47

use my name. So I wanted to do

6:47

something with my birth name,

6:51

and ended up coming up with this

6:51

series. And this character named

6:54

Marshall, James. And in the

6:54

books, he is my age, most of my

6:59

characters are my age or

6:59

certainly over, not too far

7:02

behind me. And I can talk about

7:02

that too. But he's lives in New

7:07

York City, it's the present, he

7:07

survived a cancer diagnosis and

7:11

surgery. And he decides not

7:11

knowing how long he's got,

7:15

because it can always come back,

7:15

that he wants to talk about

7:19

these murders that he was part

7:19

of, not that he committed, but

7:23

that he was involved in, back in

7:23

the 1980s. Hollywood. And so it

7:28

starts out in the present in New

7:28

York City. And then he goes back

7:32

into the, the, the events in the

7:32

mid 1980s. And interestingly, it

7:39

allowed me to write because you

7:39

had said when you wrote it, or

7:42

when you read it that I was I

7:42

had Hollywood down, and it

7:45

allowed me to go back because I

7:45

lived there then and I went to

7:48

the Hollywood Spa, I went to the

7:48

baths, I went to the bar called

7:53

The Lemon Twist that I that I

7:53

repurposed for as the Paisley

7:58

Parrot. And there are you know,

7:58

all these things are gone. Now.

8:02

I mean, the twit the lemon twist

8:02

is still there under a new name,

8:05

I don't think I don't think it's

8:05

a gay bar anymore has been for a

8:07

long time. But so much of what I

8:07

write about doesn't exist

8:11

anymore, like a different light.

8:11

Like the things we were talking

8:14

about. But it's it's still I've

8:14

enjoyed going back and, and

8:19

researching and like, what are

8:19

the top what were the number one

8:22

songs on the radio in 1984. You

8:22

know, and going back into that

8:27

part of my life, and writing a

8:27

story about it, but then also

8:30

getting to come back into the

8:30

moment that I'm in, in the age

8:34

that I'm in. So I really liked

8:34

writing them.

8:39

And you could tell

8:39

that and the reason I said you

8:41

you captured it really well is a

8:41

lot of those things are gone. By

8:45

the time I moved here. I got

8:45

here right at the early 2000s

8:49

Hollywood SPA was still there.

8:49

There were a few more of the

8:52

places there this bookstore, the

8:52

Hollywood spa, but it's as I was

8:56

living here that we saw more and

8:56

more of those things going away.

9:00

The other thing I really thought

9:00

you captured well is the

9:03

seediness of Hollywood, and it

9:03

was much more seedy even when

9:07

you were here. Where was the

9:07

lemon twist?

9:10

That lemon twist

9:10

was boy if you know Hollywood

9:14

Boulevard, I'm having to

9:14

envision it Hollywood Boulevard

9:18

up around where the Pacific

9:18

Theater it's not there anymore.

9:21

The Pacific Theater. Oh, it's

9:21

not West Hollywood at all. It's

9:24

the main dragon Hollywood,

9:26

Hollywood Boulevard.

9:27

Boy I'm trying to think

9:27

of landmarks but it was back it

9:30

was back behind those places. It

9:30

was like on you know where the

9:34

Hollywood SPA was. So if you

9:34

went on to buy like Las Palmas

9:38

back in that area. It was in

9:38

there. It wasn't that

9:42

noticeable. You had to kind of

9:42

know where it was. And it was a

9:46

drinkers bar which which I write

9:46

about because that was me. I was

9:50

even when I was young. If I

9:50

wanted to hook up as they call

9:54

it. I would go to the bass. I

9:54

wouldn't go to the bars because

9:56

I was a heavy drinker myself and

9:56

the lemon twist was the kind had

10:00

a place where you went to drink.

10:00

And that's what I liked about

10:03

it. That's what the character

10:03

Marshall likes about it. I

10:06

wasn't there to pick anybody up.

10:06

I don't know how often I ever

10:09

picked anybody up at a at a bar

10:09

and you didn't need to back

10:12

then, folks have Grindr Now I

10:12

wouldn't even I've never had an

10:17

app because I've been in a

10:17

relationship for a long time.

10:19

But he just went to the baths

10:19

and and it was a social place. I

10:23

write about that quite a bit in

10:23

these stories, because it wasn't

10:27

just there to get to have sex.

10:27

It was also a social gathering

10:30

spot for young gay men. And a

10:30

lot of them were street people.

10:36

By the time I came

10:36

out baths through strictly for

10:39

sex, there was a little bit

10:39

hanging out, but that not a

10:42

whole lot. And it's funny to

10:42

talk about Grindr and such. My

10:46

first book, which is a body in a

10:46

bath house, it talks about the

10:49

bath house and the story is

10:49

really struggling. And I looked

10:53

up a lot of the history of

10:53

bathhouse and their, their slow

10:57

decline. I don't think they're

10:57

ever gonna go away. I think that

11:01

it's like glory holes. There's a

11:01

certain thrill people have with

11:05

those. So there will always be

11:05

somebody that likes that

11:09

atmosphere. I used to love the

11:09

thrill of going to one and but

11:13

I'm happily married and haven't

11:13

been to one in ages. But I think

11:16

that will always be there. But

11:16

they're just this city used to

11:19

be filled with them, and they're

11:19

very few left. In fact, you

11:22

know,

11:23

there were quite a few back then.

11:24

The only one I can

11:24

think of in the Hollywood area

11:27

is not a bathhouse. It's called

11:27

Slammers in success club that

11:31

they don't even pretend to be

11:31

anything else. I've never been

11:34

there but from what I understand

11:34

that there's no pretense of

11:37

having a gym that nobody uses or

11:37

a pool that nobody uses. It's

11:42

it's just open and that's what

11:42

you do.

12:06

So with the with

12:06

the thrillers, too, I had just

12:09

done a short story based on

12:09

them. And you and it was in an

12:12

anthology that you also had a

12:12

story in? Yeah, it was a

12:16

Marshall James thriller short

12:16

story. That was fun, because I

12:20

had to kind of had to write on

12:20

deadline. And I it's taking me a

12:24

while it takes can take me a

12:24

long time to write a book. And

12:27

so I'm trying to write the third

12:27

the Marshall James thrillers I

12:29

intend there to be three, there

12:29

have been two, murder at the

12:32

Paisley parrot beautiful corpse.

12:32

The third one is called final

12:35

audition. And I'm working on

12:35

that now. But it was it was nice

12:39

to have to have to go off and

12:39

write this 10 11,000 word short

12:45

story based on that character. I

12:45

really enjoyed doing that. And I

12:50

was happy with what came out.

12:52

It was my very

12:52

first short story that I

12:54

published. And I was very

12:54

nervous about that. And like you

12:58

said, there was a deadline,

12:58

which when you self publish,

13:00

there's not much that much of a

13:00

deadline, you can just write on

13:04

forever and never actually

13:04

finished one if you let

13:06

yourself. Yeah. But you are

13:06

bringing up both Marshall chin

13:11

Marshall, James and CO Callahan.

13:11

And you mentioned that Marshall

13:15

James is a thriller. And Kyle

13:15

Callahan is a mystery. What made

13:21

you switch? Tell us what's the

13:21

difference in in? Let's start

13:25

there?

13:26

Well, I mean, some

13:26

of this is subjective, but

13:28

mysteries and thrillers and

13:28

suspense, they each have

13:32

parameters, I don't know. I

13:32

don't want to call them. It's

13:34

not rigid, like like romance is

13:34

it's really rigid. I've never

13:38

written or read a romance and

13:38

I'm not ever going to write one.

13:42

But they're very rigid, they

13:42

must have a happy ending they

13:44

must have this semester of that

13:44

mystery you have a lot of room

13:48

to work with on a mystery, it

13:48

can be told through omniscient

13:51

point of view, which I have

13:51

used. So that I can shift point

13:56

of view from different

13:56

characters, or, or it can be a

14:00

single point of view, which I'm

14:00

also using right now with

14:02

another book I'm writing where

14:02

the lead characters in every

14:06

scene. But anyways, a mystery.

14:06

The protagonist is generally not

14:10

in danger in a mystery, you

14:10

know, like, a wire or anybody,

14:14

you know, usually is not in

14:14

danger in a thriller. The

14:18

dynamic is different because the

14:18

protagonist, is put in peril

14:22

early on and remains in peril.

14:22

And that's what makes it a

14:25

thriller. That's what makes it a

14:25

suspense book. As opposed to a

14:29

mystery where you could have a

14:29

character who is solving a

14:32

murder mystery and is never in

14:32

any it under any threat at all.

14:36

The mystery is, is the center of

14:36

it. And with a thriller, like in

14:41

the Marshall James books, he

14:41

pursues a killer, and the killer

14:44

pursues him. You have this

14:44

friction going on all the time.

14:48

And that's what in my mind makes

14:48

it a thriller, as opposed to a

14:51

mystery. And when I wrote the

14:51

first Marshall James Book, I

14:54

called it a novel because I

14:54

couldn't decide. I didn't want

14:58

to call it a mystery because

14:58

it's really not about Mystery.

15:01

And it's not strictly a

15:01

thriller. It's kind of a hybrid.

15:04

So I call it a novel. But then

15:04

you have people who say like,

15:08

they think the authors are being

15:08

pretentious when they use the

15:10

word novel, but I explained to a

15:10

friend recently, that's because

15:15

it differentiates it makes it a

15:15

differential. It's not a it's

15:18

not a mystery. It's not a

15:18

thriller. A lot. A lot of times

15:21

an author will put a novel The

15:21

word novel on a book, they're

15:23

not being pretentious. They're

15:23

doing it because it is not a

15:26

genre book. You know what I'm

15:26

saying?

15:29

Yes, I do. And I

15:29

think since most people tend to

15:33

read genre fiction, and

15:33

especially somebody like

15:35

yourself, if you don't consider

15:35

it a mystery, and you're known

15:38

for writing mysteries, it would

15:38

make perfect sense for you to

15:42

write a novel on there. So

15:42

people know that they're getting

15:45

into something different. And I

15:45

actually got into it thinking it

15:48

was going to be a mystery. And

15:48

it was a lot of fun. It was a

15:50

lot of fun. The whole the whole

15:50

tension. Do you give us time to

15:54

read for pleasure?

15:57

Well, it's it has

15:57

to do with my, the state of my

16:02

life. When I lived alone, I

16:02

always went to bed, I read when

16:05

I went to bed, I had no

16:05

television in the bedroom, I

16:08

would watch the news or whatever

16:08

and eat in the living room. And

16:11

then I would go into my bedroom.

16:11

And I would read before I went

16:14

to bed every night. So I got

16:14

through books, a fair number of

16:17

books. Since I've been with

16:17

Frank, I don't read at night, we

16:21

watch TV in the bedroom. So I my

16:21

reading pretty much nowadays is

16:25

on my days off, I will read and

16:25

take a nap. So it can take me of

16:30

a really long time to finish a

16:30

book. Because I'm only reading

16:33

it maybe three or four days a

16:33

week for about a half an hour at

16:37

a time. It's very different from

16:37

what it used to be. I still love

16:41

to read. I buy books all the

16:41

time. I just don't finish for a

16:45

while at that pace, it would take quite a while to finish one.

16:49

Oh yeah, it can take me weeks. And I have friends who go like, like a

16:51

friend of ours, turns me on to

16:54

books and buy in, he'd buy but I

16:54

met him because he emailed me

16:57

and said I love your books. And

16:57

I think you live near me. So it

17:00

turned out that we did and we

17:00

made friends with him and his

17:03

husband. But he recommended a

17:03

book to me and he's like, reads

17:08

right through him and then wants

17:08

to know what I thought and I'm

17:10

like, you know, Ron, it's gonna

17:10

take me about six weeks to read

17:14

this. So be patient.

17:16

I'm surprised when

17:16

averred mystery readers and

17:19

especially avid romance readers

17:19

read a book in one and a half

17:25

days or even one day. And I'm

17:25

always amazed about that. And

17:30

then I think back to when I

17:30

first moved out of my parents

17:33

home. I I've always enjoyed

17:33

reading. I've always been a big

17:37

reader. But when I first moved

17:37

out, I didn't have a TV. So I

17:42

was voracious. I just read

17:42

everything I get get my hands

17:46

on. I read everything from Oh,

17:46

those cheesy Star Trek stories,

17:50

which some of them were pretty

17:50

good to literary fiction,

17:54

anything I could get my hands

17:54

on. And I reached the point that

17:57

I didn't even give it to him.

17:57

They didn't have a television.

18:00

I'm still quite happy that my

18:00

husband and I, we both don't

18:04

like having a TV in the bedroom.

18:04

So we we both go to sleep

18:08

reading our separate books.

18:10

Yeah, by Well,

18:10

yeah, my late partner and I used

18:13

to do that we would read

18:13

together in bed. Frank Frank,

18:17

we're TV watchers, and it's

18:17

okay. Life is life. Is a process

18:22

ever changing. You

18:22

mentioned point of view earlier.

18:26

And your earliest mysteries, the

18:26

Marshall James mysteries, or no,

18:33

I'm sorry, the cow Callahan

18:33

mysteries. Those were all

18:36

written in third person. Yeah.

18:36

And the short story that we

18:40

discussed earlier Cupid shot me

18:40

that was the first time I ever

18:43

wrote in third person. First

18:43

Person is much easier for me. So

18:47

the kind of Callaghan's here

18:47

series was in third person, and

18:51

you switch with Marshall James

18:51

to first person. So first of

18:54

all, just give folks an idea of

18:54

what the difference is between

18:58

the two. And then I'd like to

18:58

hear your take on how it felt to

19:02

switch from one to the other.

19:05

I said earlier,

19:05

I've been writing since I was a

19:07

child, probably about 10 years

19:07

old, I started writing those

19:10

stories. And for the most part,

19:10

I've always written in the third

19:15

person. I was heavily influenced

19:15

by Poe. And it turns out he

19:19

wrote almost exclusively in the

19:19

first person, but I wrote I've

19:23

always written in the third

19:23

person. And I just I like doing

19:28

it there's there's a remove when

19:28

you do that. There are different

19:32

points of view that you can use,

19:32

you can use omnisend point of

19:35

view, or you can you can write

19:35

as any character in the book, or

19:40

you can do a single point of

19:40

view. But it's it's just really

19:43

different. It's I'm removed from

19:43

it. I'm painting the scene as I

19:47

see it, or hear it in my head.

19:47

And I'm not the character. I

19:52

become those characters. When I

19:52

write the dialogue. I'm

19:54

listening to them and like the

19:54

Maggie doll book that I'm

19:56

writing now, she talks and the

19:56

other character talks with It

20:00

takes us some sort of a

20:00

different skill set to write in

20:03

the third person. I've written

20:03

in the first person, I had a

20:06

short story that became a Kindle

20:06

single. And I was really proud

20:10

of that one. And that was the

20:10

first person. And when I started

20:13

the Marshall James books, I

20:13

wanted to write in the first

20:16

person. And most of I will say,

20:16

most of the mystery writers I

20:21

know, right in the first person,

20:21

and I gave it a try, and I do

20:25

like it, it's very different.

20:25

It's very different for me,

20:28

because I'm writing as like

20:28

Marshall, J. Marshall. Thornton

20:32

said in his interview, I'm

20:32

writing as the character, you

20:34

know, the character has a voice,

20:34

and the characters telling the

20:37

story, so not only are you

20:37

talking like the character, but

20:41

you're thinking like the

20:41

character, and you're painting

20:44

the scenes for the reader as the

20:44

character. To me, they're very

20:47

different. I do think it can be

20:47

more challenging to write in the

20:51

third person. And I don't want

20:51

to I don't want to, you know,

20:55

diminish first person writing at

20:55

all, because, but I do think you

20:59

have to be good at it. I mean, I

20:59

remember reading a long, long

21:02

time ago, as I was developing as

21:02

a writer, that first person is

21:06

that a lot of people write in

21:06

the first person when they're

21:09

beginning because it's easy.

21:09

It's easy to start saying I did

21:12

this, I did that. I opened the

21:12

door and took out the knife and

21:15

stab the person. But you do need

21:15

to be good at it. There are a

21:20

lot of people who are bad at

21:20

first person writing. I mean,

21:23

the world is full of bad writers

21:23

who are writing in the first

21:26

person. Yeah. When you're good

21:26

at it, you're good at it. And

21:29

that's to me is the only caveat

21:29

because you could you could also

21:32

write in the third person being

21:32

horrible writer, lots of those

21:34

two, like I said, I think they

21:34

just take they take different

21:37

skill sets. And aside from the

21:37

Marshall James books, I don't

21:42

know that I would, you know, I

21:42

think my other books are all

21:44

third person and I'll probably

21:44

keep doing that.

21:47

Well, I was curious, you mentioned Maggie doll. And you wrote a nother

21:49

female protagonist, Linda, is it

21:54

Sikorsky,

21:55

Linda Sikorsky lesbian?

21:57

Yeah, being that

21:57

they're both females? Could you

22:00

ever imagine writing those as

22:00

first person? Would you ever

22:04

feel comfortable doing that?

22:08

I don't think so.

22:08

Because I am binary. I will say

22:12

that, and it doesn't bother me.

22:12

I'm pretty binary guy. And so

22:16

writing it writing in a woman's

22:16

voice is not the same. I don't

22:20

think even though you still have

22:20

to take a different perspective

22:24

writing in third person when

22:24

you're writing with a female

22:26

protagonist, because the world

22:26

has seen it in a particular way,

22:30

or in her case, her husband

22:30

died. So I'm having it was

22:34

really important to me to

22:34

address her grieving process,

22:36

which is still ongoing. But I

22:36

don't think I would write in the

22:40

first person as if, as a female.

22:43

I think the other

22:43

thing with first person is,

22:48

since that is the who you're

22:48

hearing, listening to through

22:51

the entire book. The key is to

22:51

make sure they're somebody that

22:54

the reader wants to listen to.

22:54

And I think that when you have

22:59

somebody that's new, that isn't

22:59

necessarily very good at first

23:02

person writing, I think that's

23:02

probably their problem.

23:05

Yeah. They don't

23:05

they don't always not everybody,

23:09

not every I had a little bit of

23:09

more into this. I was also I

23:16

wrote plays for 10 years, and

23:16

had six of them produced. I've

23:20

won two Emmys. I'm going to put

23:20

that up there. Because I was

23:22

writing children's television.

23:22

And I and you should put that

23:25

out there. Yeah, I got the two

23:25

Emmys for that. But where was I

23:29

going with this? Dialogue, I

23:29

think believe was Tennessee

23:31

Williams, it may have been

23:31

turned to Tennessee Williams, I

23:34

think who said that dialogue is

23:34

the illusion of conversation.

23:37

And I have never forgotten that.

23:37

Because another thing that you

23:40

can either be really good at or

23:40

really bad at is writing

23:43

dialogue. And understanding that

23:43

it's not how people really talk.

23:47

You know, if I wrote If we wrote

23:47

the way people really talk, like

23:51

nobody would get past the first

23:51

page. Dialogue is an illusion.

23:55

So you can you can work on that

23:55

you can hone your skills. I have

23:59

told people read poetry read a

23:59

lot of poetry, if you want to

24:02

develop an ear for dialogue and

24:02

an ear for even even for prose,

24:07

read poetry, you know? Because

24:07

you learned to be succinct and

24:11

you learn to paint pictures with

24:11

words. The fewer the better, in

24:15

my opinion. Dialogue is not how

24:15

people really talk. No, well,

24:20

actually

24:20

probably 50% of

24:20

what we talk about. Nobody wants

24:23

to read it's just chat. Yeah,

24:23

nonsense. I'm not gonna say it's

24:28

nonsensical, but I don't chat

24:28

nothing. Where is it really

24:32

focus on a narrator in the

24:32

story, and I think it's probably

24:36

easier in a movie because you

24:36

can you're usually only hearing

24:39

dialogue. If you just really

24:39

listen, it's very clear that

24:43

they aren't talking the way

24:43

people talk because they are

24:45

straight and to the point in

24:45

everything they say, and it

24:50

really comes across if it was if

24:50

he spoke that way. The real

24:53

world I'll say you just be blunt

24:53

as hell. Yeah. Whether you're

24:58

talking about things are

24:58

positive or things that are

25:01

negative, you're going to come

25:01

across as rude. But that is

25:05

important the way do you have to

25:05

write in fiction? Yes. So you're

25:09

100%, right?

25:10

So I want to just throw out there that writing is rewriting, that's yet another

25:12

big thing that I learned a long

25:15

time ago. I rewrite Can I write

25:15

Polish constantly? Like, by the

25:20

time I'm done with something,

25:20

it's not that I've written it 10

25:23

times, it's that I have polished

25:23

it 10 times like words, putting

25:27

out word 10 habits. So writing

25:27

is rewriting. And another mentor

25:32

told me that and it's always

25:32

served me well.

25:35

And, you know, I

25:35

think that's where people get a

25:37

bad reputation. Those of us that

25:37

self publish on, on Amazon, or

25:41

wherever we self published,

25:41

there are so many so many bad

25:46

novels. And it's usually because

25:46

somebody that wasn't trained,

25:49

and they don't polish their

25:49

novel, they write it, maybe they

25:53

edited it once if they're lucky.

25:53

And then that's it, they put it

25:56

on, you know, up for sale, and

25:56

people read it. And they're

25:59

like, these people that don't go

25:59

through a publishing house, they

26:02

don't even know what they're

26:02

doing, because it's assumed that

26:04

we don't go through that

26:04

process. There are many of us a

26:10

lot, and a lot of us that our

26:10

craft is very important. And you

26:14

know, some of the people that do

26:14

publish on Amazon is probably

26:17

very important to them as well,

26:17

they just probably haven't had

26:20

the right direction. Yeah, I

26:20

think the reputation is going

26:24

away, mostly. But even some of

26:24

the Edgar awards that the

26:27

Mystery Writers of America

26:27

offers, some of them are not

26:30

open to Self Publishers.

26:33

Well, with this, since you brought it up with Mystery Writers of America, they

26:34

have approved publishers, and if

26:39

you're self published, you have

26:39

to make at least $5,000 in

26:44

royalties in a year. If you're

26:44

not, if you're published through

26:48

a quote, if you if a bolt stroke

26:48

spokes is publishing you, you

26:51

only have to make $200. So I

26:51

thought that was kind of, you

26:56

know, I don't real doesn't

26:56

really matter what it says i i

26:59

What I did get in, finally, but

26:59

um, and I, I wanted that I

27:04

wanted to be a member of that

27:04

organization. But it's like,

27:07

that's a really big difference

27:07

between the fact that you know,

27:11

a, quote, publishing house puts

27:11

you out. And so you don't have

27:15

to make almost nothing to be a

27:15

member of this organization.

27:19

It's a very good

27:19

point. And I wasn't trying to

27:21

put them down at all, because

27:21

they, they've done a lot of

27:23

great things. In fact, some of

27:23

their past presidents i are some

27:26

of my idols. In fact, I will

27:26

tell you, I'm not going to name

27:29

the name, there is an author who

27:29

I've adored for years and has

27:35

been my inspiration for years.

27:35

And if anybody listens to past

27:38

episodes, know who I'm talking

27:38

about, and I sent him an email,

27:41

and I said, I have a show called

27:41

Queer Writers of Crime. And I

27:45

know you're married with

27:45

children, though, that doesn't

27:47

assume that you aren't queer.

27:47

But based on interviews, and

27:51

that sort of thing, I'm going to

27:51

presume that you don't identify.

27:54

However, it's my show, and I

27:54

want you on there. So I'd be

27:58

thrilled to have you on and I

27:58

think you should be introduced

28:01

to the role. And he was very

28:01

kind. And he it was the first

28:04

person ever turned me down.

28:04

Actually, one person canceled

28:08

the interview, and I changed the

28:08

name from gay to queer of the

28:10

podcast. Okay, because he said

28:10

he was not going to be involved

28:14

in anything that used the word

28:14

queer. That was the first person

28:17

that ever would not be on the

28:17

show. This gentleman sent me an

28:21

email back, he was very kind and

28:21

said, I would have no qualms

28:25

being on a show that is related

28:25

to the LGBTQ community, that

28:28

wouldn't bother me the least.

28:28

However, over the years, I have

28:32

found i absolute hate being

28:32

interviewed for podcasts. That's

28:37

fine. So and it broke my heart.

28:37

He said, otherwise, I'd be glad

28:42

to buy just hated I've done

28:42

enough of my I swore I would

28:44

never do them again. And I said,

28:44

if you change your mind, I am

28:48

screaming to get you on my show.

28:48

So where was I going with that?

28:52

Oh, anyway, this individual was

28:52

one of the past presidents of

28:56

Mystery Writers of America.

28:57

I want to find out if they have things that I can get involved with in this area.

28:59

I don't know yet.

29:04

You mentioned earlier about writing about older characters. And I want to

29:06

bring that up. Because for those

29:10

listeners that don't know, I now

29:10

have every guest write a blog

29:14

post. And there's a link in the

29:14

show notes, guest blocks and you

29:17

can go there. And Mark wrote a

29:17

really interesting one called in

29:22

praise of older characters. And

29:22

Mark has a challenge with all

29:28

are the vast majority of sleuths

29:28

and protagonist been in the 3040

29:34

tops range. And I had Barbara

29:34

Wilson on last month mark and

29:39

writing older characters is a

29:39

very big deal to her as well.

29:42

You are absolutely passionate

29:42

about it. You are so passionate

29:46

about it. You have started a I

29:46

don't know if I call it an

29:50

organization but you used to

29:50

have a newsletter blog and you

29:54

still have the Facebook page

29:54

LGBT lsr.com I want to talk

30:00

about that

30:01

I share Well, it's

30:01

it's LGBT Sr. But I did the LGBT

30:07

s are, you know, as a little

30:07

play on that because the lob

30:10

originally the art was

30:10

lowercase. Anyways, I started it

30:14

10 years ago and I started it at

30:14

the same time that I that I

30:17

decided to write a mystery, a

30:17

gay mystery. And it all goes

30:21

back to a place called Rainbow

30:21

Mountain. They're still there.

30:24

They're in the Poconos. It's a

30:24

LGBTQ resort that's been there

30:28

for 30 years. And most of the

30:28

customers look like they've been

30:32

going there for pretty much all

30:32

that time. It's an older

30:35

clientele. And one time Frank

30:35

and I were there 10 years ago,

30:39

because we used to love to leave

30:39

the city. It's only about an

30:42

hour an hour or so from New York

30:42

City. And we were there and they

30:45

had a sweat. They have a

30:45

swimming pool that that is

30:48

mobbed during the summer still.

30:48

And it had been drained for the

30:51

winter. And it was just the blue

30:51

pool with leaves in the bottom.

30:55

And I looked down into it and I

30:55

I had an image of of somebody

31:00

being dead at the bottom of the

31:00

pool. And I said to Frank, this

31:03

would be a great place to set a

31:03

murder mystery. And I did that's

31:06

how I wrote my first murder

31:06

mystery murder at Pride lunch

31:10

with Kyle Callahan and his then

31:10

partner Dan. Well, they they're

31:14

still together because I just

31:14

wrote a book. My last book was

31:17

theirs. But they weren't they

31:17

weren't married yet. And they

31:20

were a Rainbow Mountain. And

31:20

Kyle's friend was the like the

31:24

groundskeeper there, and he's

31:24

the one who was dead at the

31:27

bottom of the pool. I wanted to

31:27

write a book that had characters

31:31

who were like me, and I've

31:31

pretty much stuck to that I can,

31:37

I can write younger characters.

31:37

I have a supernatural chiller

31:40

called house in the woods and

31:40

the character lead characters

31:43

are in their 30s. But they're

31:43

also straight and and I don't

31:48

know what that has to do with

31:48

anything. But maybe it's easier

31:50

for me to write young straight

31:50

people. But anyways, the car

31:53

Kalyan mysteries. They're the

31:53

he's they're the same age as we

31:57

are. And it's actually modeled

31:57

on me and Frank, Danny, his

32:01

husband, Danny is Frank, he does

32:01

something different for a

32:04

living. And Frank did but I it

32:04

was important to me to see my

32:07

own age group and in what I was

32:07

reading in, especially writing,

32:12

and it still is Maggie doll is

32:12

in her 40s I don't really see me

32:16

going. I don't want to write a

32:16

25 year old. I mean, unless

32:21

there's an in, you know, an

32:21

incidental character in

32:23

something. And I have nothing

32:23

against 25 year olds at all. But

32:27

I want to write from my own

32:27

experience. And I don't write

32:31

romance. I don't write sex

32:31

scenes. So there's really no

32:35

reason why I have to have a 25

32:35

year old with a six pack, you

32:40

know, abs in my books or on my

32:40

covers, not to offend anybody

32:44

there. But I'm just not I'm

32:44

never going to put a torso on my

32:47

cover. That's not what I write.

32:47

But anyways, so my characters

32:51

are older and I value the older

32:51

characters I value their

32:54

experience. I love writing. Even

32:54

with Maggie, the the woman

32:58

sleuth, she's hurt, she's

32:58

grieving. And she's going

33:01

through things that I'm very

33:01

familiar with. And I don't think

33:05

you know those things. When

33:05

you're in your 20s. The only

33:08

difference the exception, of

33:08

course, is that we lived through

33:10

the AIDS crisis. And I was I was

33:10

losing friends in my in my late

33:14

20s. And my partner died when I

33:14

was 33. But having said that, I

33:20

just prefer writing older

33:20

characters. And I also like

33:23

reading them. I'm very

33:23

comfortable with series that I

33:25

have been reading for 20 years

33:25

or more. And the characters aged

33:29

as I did a really good example

33:29

is Michael Connelly, very well

33:32

known, the Harry Bosch books and

33:32

the show on amazon prime with

33:38

Titus Welliver. But Harry got

33:38

old with me. You know, I was

33:42

reading Harry 20 years ago, when

33:42

he was in his 40s. Now he's in

33:45

his 60s, and he's retired. And I

33:45

just love that. I mean, I just

33:49

love that. So that's why it

33:49

matters to me. You know, and I

33:52

think we do tend to disappear

33:52

and you know, the State of the

33:55

State of LGBT mystery, if that

33:55

even is a thing anymore. I don't

34:00

want to get into my opinions

34:00

about all that, but I want to

34:03

see me I want to read mysteries

34:03

with people that I can identify

34:06

with.

34:09

Well, I'm gonna get

34:09

on my high horse about torsos on

34:12

the cover. I love mysteries that

34:12

have torsos on the cover the big

34:17

bare chested men. Oh, because I

34:17

know to skip them, because in my

34:21

personal opinion, is very

34:21

unlikely when I open that book,

34:25

I'll be reading the mystery.

34:26

Oh, that's true. You're going to be reading mmm, romance with a dead body in it.

34:30

Exactly. And I've

34:30

said this so many times, I have

34:34

no issue with romance, but don't

34:34

write a romance and stick it

34:38

into the mystery category. So

34:38

you can sell more books. And

34:41

that's my opinion what they're

34:41

doing now. So anyway, if

34:44

somebody wants to argue with

34:44

that with me, give me a call

34:46

actually bring you on the show and talk to you about it. But that's my opinion. And of course

34:48

my opinion is the one that

34:50

counts. I agree

34:50

with you and I know a lot of a

34:53

lot of male gay mystery writers,

34:53

you know have used I don't even

34:58

sit seductive the right word for

34:58

the However, I understand that

35:01

I'm not going to knock that. But

35:01

when I think of the the writers

35:05

that I that like really blow me

35:05

away as writers, they don't,

35:09

they don't need to do that.

35:09

Their, their, their, their

35:12

writing is what sells. It's not

35:12

the what's on the cover that

35:15

sells the book. So that matters

35:15

to me too. I like I want to be a

35:19

mysterious writer. And it

35:19

doesn't make you unserious to

35:22

have a hot 25 year old white,

35:22

they're always white, by the

35:26

way, on, you know, on the cover

35:26

of your book, but you know,

35:31

you're gonna have to prove to me

35:31

that you're that you're a

35:33

serious writer.

35:35

I was at the Los

35:35

Angeles Times festival books,

35:39

and I met somebody that should

35:39

know better. I don't want to

35:44

give a hint. Because it would be

35:44

very easy for people to know who

35:47

they were. And this was a

35:47

private conversation. But they

35:50

said to me, Oh, I've just

35:50

started getting into mysteries.

35:53

And I really enjoyed them. And I

35:53

said, Oh, who do you read? And

35:57

they said that I have to die.

35:57

And my, my mouth dropped open.

36:01

Because this is an individual

36:01

that? Well, if you read the

36:05

reviews, he gets huge, wonderful

36:05

reviews. But they're all about

36:10

the the relationship. And when

36:10

you read the negative reviews,

36:14

they say, I bought this book

36:14

expecting a mystery in all I got

36:18

was a lot of sex. Yeah. And some

36:18

romance. And that is why I have

36:24

I think it has blurred the lines

36:24

for many people that, as I've

36:28

said here many times, if we

36:28

don't have that in our book,

36:32

they're angry, because that has

36:32

now been their expectation

36:35

that's been created. Yeah, sure.

36:35

So that's my, because I have no

36:38

interest in writing a romance

36:38

novel. But anyway, I've gotten

36:42

this route many times. Again,

36:42

okay. So you did something a

36:49

little different with Marshall,

36:49

James. During his the time

36:54

period when the action is going

36:54

on. He's younger, right? He's,

36:57

but he's telling the story. He's

36:57

telling the story from the

37:00

future from Yes, as an older

37:00

man, is a reason why he went

37:04

that route with him.

37:06

Like I said, he,

37:06

he had cancer, he's in

37:08

remission. It's been five years,

37:08

he figures I could die and he's

37:12

got a husband, he's got a

37:12

boyfriend, they get married in

37:14

the second book, or while the

37:14

second book, they're definitely

37:17

married now and living together.

37:17

And he wanted to it's like, he

37:20

wanted to get his get it off his

37:20

conscience, you wanted to tell

37:24

these stories. And it was a

37:24

really good way for me to, to do

37:28

that myself to go back into the

37:28

past. And because it's the first

37:32

person, he is telling it from

37:32

the present, but you don't, it

37:36

isn't very often. It's not a

37:36

fourth wall. I don't know what

37:39

you would call it. But I don't

37:39

very often break that. I mean,

37:43

he could be he could be, you

37:43

know, 20 years younger and

37:46

telling the same story. It's

37:46

only very rarely does he

37:50

reference, for instance,

37:50

something that doesn't exist

37:53

anymore, he would just say, you

37:53

know, he used a payphone. You

37:56

know, he's, I don't really, it's

37:56

very rare that I would mention

37:59

the fact that there are no

37:59

papers anymore. Um, so he's

38:03

pretty much in the 1980s when

38:03

he's telling the story.

38:08

And I'm sure there

38:08

are many, many books that could

38:10

come to my head, but the one and

38:10

only one that is coming to me

38:14

now is that's the way fried

38:14

green tomatoes was written. Oh,

38:17

okay. I don't know if you've

38:17

ever read the book or seen the

38:20

movie, I highly recommend. It's

38:20

not really mystery. But it's an

38:25

old woman in a nursing home

38:25

telling a story from a small

38:28

town that she grew up in it was

38:28

written by Fannie Flagg, who I

38:30

think, was an outstanding

38:30

writer. Well,

38:32

and I liked doing

38:32

it too, because it gives the it

38:37

gives Marshall a future. Because

38:37

now in the third book, it is all

38:43

wrapped up. But then the third

38:43

book that I'm writing, and he's

38:46

able to, well, you, if you read

38:46

the short story, you you're

38:49

gonna get sort of where it's

38:49

going. he reconnects with the

38:52

love of his life, who he left in

38:52

LA all those years ago. And it's

38:56

really, that's all just stuff

38:56

that I really love to work with.

39:01

You know,

39:02

it leaves you a lot

39:02

of interesting things that you

39:05

can do because the person's

39:05

already gotten to know the

39:08

character, and you've created

39:08

this. You've got bookends and

39:11

there's so many interesting things you can do in the middle and I

39:14

like the emotions

39:14

of it even like with with

39:17

Maggie, I have dealt with

39:17

intense grief myself. And those

39:22

are things that I like to work

39:22

with. You know, I like to

39:25

examine what what is grief? Is

39:25

it linear? Is it not linear? All

39:29

those things the same thing with

39:29

Marshall Marshall. He's got us

39:32

but he doesn't want to leave his

39:32

husband. But he wants so much to

39:35

say goodbye to somebody he never

39:35

was able to say goodbye to. If

39:39

that person is even still alive.

39:39

You got to read it to find

39:42

out. Very good. One

39:42

thing Barbara Wilson brought up

39:47

last month is one of the

39:47

challenges she has she she

39:50

writes older character. But one

39:50

of the challenges she finds is

39:54

you reach a certain age and your

39:54

your sleuth cannot climb over

39:57

fences or go through windows.

39:57

anymore? Yeah. Do you see that

40:02

as a challenge at all?

40:03

I do, because with

40:03

the with the Kyle Callahan

40:06

series, it's, it's gonna be it's

40:06

been over a year and a half

40:10

since I put out a book. And

40:10

that's a really long time for

40:12

me. But it has to do with the

40:12

pandemic and everything else

40:15

that's been going on in our

40:15

lives. But with Kyle and Danny,

40:18

he's in his 60s Now, as I am,

40:18

and I have already thought, I

40:23

don't really want to write one

40:23

of these books when he's in his

40:25

70s. So I don't know how much

40:25

further I will go with it. I'm

40:30

not ageist, I just, I'm not sure

40:30

that that Kyle is going to be

40:35

solving murders when he's in his

40:35

70s? Probably not, he's probably

40:39

going to be tending the garden

40:39

and loving his cats. You know

40:43

what I mean? If that makes any

40:43

sense. I mean, there's kind of

40:45

an age limit to me with it.

40:48

My character in my

40:48

first two novels, and someday

40:51

I'll get the third one out. He's

40:51

in his 30s. And there's a reason

40:54

why I did that. I like it when

40:54

characters age just like you do.

40:58

And you know, I think of Donald

40:58

Strachey, some others that

41:01

didn't age over the years. And I

41:01

don't want that. But also

41:04

thought Strachey has been around

41:04

for 40 years. And even though I

41:10

it's very unlikely I will be

41:10

around in 40 years, I hope to be

41:14

around for a good long time. So

41:14

if I started a character at my

41:18

age now, he would be a very old

41:18

sleuth in a couple of decades

41:23

and very unlikely that he would

41:23

be continued with that job,

41:26

which is my reason why I put him

41:26

earlier so I can have him grow

41:30

and age. Yeah. Do you want to

41:30

talk about your podcasts.

41:35

I've got an

41:35

interview podcast that is very

41:37

sporadic. I've got an interview

41:37

coming up next week with a guy

41:41

who wrote a book about women and

41:41

children in the civil war

41:44

fighting in the Civil War. And

41:44

especially a woman a man named

41:47

Albert, Camus cashier, who was

41:47

actually a woman. And then but

41:52

that the one that I do every

41:52

week is called the twist

41:54

podcast. That's with Rick. And

41:54

I've been working with Rick for

41:57

over 30 years. And one thing or

41:57

another, we're very good

42:00

friends. And we've collaborated

42:00

on all kinds of stuff, including

42:02

the two at the show that got the

42:02

two Emmys. He i He and I co

42:06

created that show. So I really

42:06

have a lot of fun doing that

42:09

show. We do get a lot of

42:09

listeners with that one, which

42:13

makes me happy. Because it's

42:13

just fun. We have a lot of fun.

42:15

And I think we're funny together

42:15

and we're extremely relaxed with

42:20

each other. And that's what makes it work.

42:22

And that's why I

42:22

enjoy it. It's so obvious that

42:25

you have been friends for a very

42:25

long time. And well I guess some

42:28

people could fake it. But it's

42:28

just like listening in on to

42:30

pals, talking about what's going

42:30

on in the world. Yes. And we can

42:35

get very

42:35

opinionated. It's very gay. I've

42:37

said, Hey, Rick, this is where

42:37

I'm, I'm totally mark on this

42:41

podcast. Facebook, I censored

42:41

myself a lot. I stopped being

42:44

very political on Facebook.

42:44

Mostly it's just pictures of me

42:48

and Franco and after dinner, but

42:48

on the podcast. That's and

42:51

that's it's pure, unfiltered

42:51

Mark McNeese. So if you want to

42:54

know what my opinions are, what

42:54

makes me laugh and what really

42:58

pisses me off? That's the place

42:58

to find it.

43:02

And Bina, listen to

43:02

the twist, I can assure you, he

43:05

is 100% Correct. You know, the

43:05

reason I stopped doing politics

43:10

on Facebook is it's people I

43:10

know, either from friends and

43:14

family, and most of them think

43:14

just like I do, yeah, so I'm

43:19

preaching the choir. And it's, I

43:19

just kind of got tired of it. I

43:22

didn't see the need for it. On

43:22

the other hand, I used to do

43:25

politics on Twitter, and I

43:25

stopped doing that because

43:28

people can't have what's the

43:28

word discourse? What's the word

43:33

that Oh, usually come civil

43:33

discourse. civil discourse.

43:36

Thank you. It's impossible to

43:36

have on on Twitter. I started

43:41

discussions with people that

43:41

didn't agree with me on Twitter.

43:44

And eventually, it gets down to

43:44

them calling me names and that

43:48

sort of thing. I blocked them.

43:48

Yeah, but what's funny on

43:51

Twitter is, Bernie followers

43:51

have called me a fascist and

43:56

corporate tool. And on the other

43:56

hand, conservatives, mostly

44:00

Trump folk have called me a lib

44:00

tard and a communist. Yeah. Now

44:06

how I can be both at the same

44:06

time. I can't figure it out. But

44:10

in the Twitter world, I I

44:10

actually used to have that on

44:16

my, my little byline on there.

44:16

So I pulled myself away from

44:20

Twitter completely. I'm now on there. I stay away

44:22

from politics. There's a lot of

44:26

stuff that's really fun and

44:26

interesting on Twitter, just

44:29

unless you really want to get

44:29

into a bitchfest just out of the

44:32

politics. And I didn't think

44:32

that was possible for a while. I

44:36

did kind of get tired of not

44:36

being able to speak my mind

44:39

occasionally. So I'm not gonna

44:39

say the name I did create a fake

44:42

account. So fine. So if I do

44:42

want to take a jab, like one of

44:46

my proudest moments is when Eric

44:46

Trump blocked me. Oh, nice,

44:50

because I made a comment on one

44:50

of his posts, and he blocked me.

44:54

And I was so excited. Just so

44:54

excited. It's the way before

44:59

Trump was called told him that

44:59

he couldn't block people

45:01

anymore. People that get blocked

45:01

by a more like a badge of honor.

45:05

That's what I felt about Eric. The the interview show? What is

45:08

that called? It's, it's so

45:13

called dumb.

45:15

Oh, yeah, it's

45:15

called one thing or

45:15

another? And is there is there

45:18

other picture type of people

45:18

that you interview? They look

45:21

like it's a variety. I used to

45:24

interview a lot of

45:24

authors because I know them, it

45:27

was easy to find. It was easy to

45:27

get guests. And actually, the

45:31

title comes from I started

45:31

writing a column like an

45:34

editor's column called one thing

45:34

or another. Look at life in the

45:38

absurdities, aging and the

45:38

absurdities of it all a long

45:42

time ago for the website, LGBT

45:42

senior. And that was sort of a

45:45

monthly column short, maybe four

45:45

or 500 words, take on on

45:50

whatever was whatever I observed

45:50

about life. That's where the

45:54

name for the podcast came from.

45:54

And originally, it was a lot of

45:58

authors. But I wanted to

45:58

interview different kinds of

46:04

people who different different

46:04

things I didn't want to, I

46:06

didn't want it to be about one

46:06

thing. And so for instance, the

46:09

last interview I did, which I

46:09

was really liked, was a man

46:14

named Professor David Yamani,

46:14

who is a professor in North

46:19

Carolina, and he's a he's a

46:19

liberal gun owner. There's a

46:23

thing called the liberal Gun

46:23

Club. I joined it even though I

46:25

don't have a gun. Because

46:25

everybody thinks, Second

46:29

Amendment NRA nutjobs. And there

46:29

are actually a lot of people in

46:33

this country who own firearms

46:33

who are not crazy white right

46:37

wing nut jobs. And Professor

46:37

Yamani studies, gun culture, and

46:41

he is a gun gun owner. So I

46:41

interviewed him and it was I

46:44

really liked that. And then next

46:44

week, like I said, I'm

46:47

interviewing and he's an author,

46:47

but he's also a historian about

46:50

the Civil War. So it's really a

46:50

matter of like, what interests

46:54

me what do I want to learn about

46:54

there's a cat behaviorist, I'm

46:57

going to be interviewing her.

46:57

I've done that before, because

46:59

she helped us with our cats. So

46:59

it's very eclectic. You know,

47:04

it's, it's easy for me to fall

47:04

back on authors because they can

47:07

always find an author who wants

47:07

to be on or who is willing to be

47:11

on a podcast, but it all it all

47:11

depends. That's part of the

47:14

reason it's sporadic. Because I

47:14

keep waiting for like, Who do I

47:17

really want to talk to living in

47:17

the woods, it's, you know, I

47:21

don't have that many

47:21

interactions with people who are

47:23

doing fascinating things. But

47:23

they're out there theater, it

47:27

might be an actor could be

47:27

Jenny, who runs the music,

47:31

mountain theater, so that it all

47:31

just depends. The tagline was

47:35

interesting people doing

47:35

interesting things. But I think

47:37

it's a really lame tagline. So I

47:37

don't use it

47:40

look kind of implies that they've done something extremely noteworthy

47:41

that has made the headlines or

47:45

something of that nature and

47:47

gorgeous that it's

47:47

fascinating. Like it could be a

47:49

cheese shop. How do you make?

47:49

How do you make cheese? I want

47:53

to know,

47:55

your show proves

47:55

the adage that every person has

47:59

a story. Yes, they do. You've

47:59

proved it. You've proved that.

48:03

Not every story is

48:03

captivating. But everybody's got

48:07

a story.

48:07

That is true. I

48:07

find most stories or at least

48:10

interesting. I'm curious when I

48:10

did not hear you and Rick, and

48:16

I'm sure you did. Talk about the

48:16

don't say gay in Florida. And

48:21

I'm only bringing up because I

48:21

know your show. well enough to

48:24

know, you guys probably had a

48:26

heyday with that.

48:26

Yes, I was. I gone off on it a

48:29

couple of times. Because it's a

48:29

trend. I just Frank's late

48:35

father lived in Florida. I've

48:35

been to Florida plenty of times.

48:38

I love Keywest. But I just can't

48:38

go there right now under this

48:41

with this regime in power.

48:41

Because I believe DeSantis and

48:45

his first of all, he wants to

48:45

out Trump Trump, he wants to be

48:49

the nominee. And so I guess when

48:49

you're like that the only way

48:53

you think you can do it is to

48:53

appeal to the basis of the base.

48:57

And in my opinion, he's turning

48:57

Florida into a maga shithole.

49:01

You know, I just have what

49:01

they're doing to the status is

49:05

just tragic. And the don't say

49:05

gay bill. I see. I've seen the

49:08

pushback where Oh, it's really

49:08

about a K through third grade.

49:13

Well not if you read the language if you read the language of the bill, which has

49:15

been pointed out in detail by

49:18

people who pay attention. It

49:18

chose speech all the way through

49:22

12th grade and it doesn't define

49:22

what is appropriate age

49:26

appropriate so if you're married

49:26

if you're a gay married teacher

49:30

now are you not allowed to have

49:30

a picture of your spouse on your

49:34

desk? Can you not do rainbow

49:34

flags? It's terrible and it's

49:37

not the worst of the worst. I

49:37

mean, to me the worst stuff

49:40

going on right now is like in

49:40

Texas when in Alabama with the

49:44

anti with with redefining gender

49:44

affirming care for minors as

49:48

child abuse and going after the

49:48

parents and in I believe it's I

49:54

want to say Tennessee oh my god,

49:54

maybe it's Idaho, where now the

49:57

If the bill passes the parents

49:57

To provide gender affirming care

50:01

for their child can be put in

50:01

prison for life. And so I have

50:06

really strong opinions about it.

50:06

And we talked about it

50:09

yesterday, the 240 bills. And

50:09

this year, January, February,

50:13

March, three months if 2020 to

50:13

240 bills have been put forward

50:19

in Republican red states that

50:19

criminalize us that diminishes

50:24

that try to erase us, that

50:24

silence us. In 2018. It was 41

50:29

bills. So the onslaught is

50:29

continuing, and it's escalating.

50:33

And so yeah, I have a lot of

50:33

opinions about it.

50:36

Well, unfortunately, the pendulum swings both ways. But

50:37

eventually, let's hope it it

50:41

stops swinging in the wrong

50:41

direction. What?

50:45

Well, if it ever stops paying political dividends, they won't be so

50:47

quite severe that

50:49

that is true. And

50:49

here's what really I mean,

50:52

there's so many things wrong

50:52

with with the bill in Florida.

50:55

But what upsets me the most is

50:55

it always comes down to sex,

51:02

they can't get sex, other heads.

51:02

So they're saying that we

51:06

shouldn't be talking about sex

51:06

to 123 year olds? Well, no, of

51:10

course, you don't talk to sex.

51:10

You know, you do it a certain

51:13

level, but only you know, how

51:13

you talk about sex is age

51:18

appropriate. And so it doesn't

51:18

matter whether it's sex between

51:23

queer people or sex between

51:23

straight people, you can only

51:27

talk about so much. So to say

51:27

that I have two dads or I'm

51:35

married to my husband and I do

51:35

not even be allowed to say that

51:41

is because their heads go to the

51:41

sex thing.

51:46

Right, and it

51:46

shouldn't be. It should, if

51:49

they're going to do that it has

51:49

to apply. It can't be just same

51:53

sex. It can't just be

51:53

homosexuality, it has to be

51:55

heterosexuality. So are they are

51:55

straight teachers going to still

52:00

be allowed to talk about the

52:00

weekend with their with their

52:04

wives and husbands? Or is that

52:04

out of bounds? We know who

52:08

they're after with this shit?

52:10

Yeah. Well,

52:10

remember, this is the state of

52:13

Anita Bryant. Things haven't

52:13

changed as much as I thought

52:16

they had over the years.

52:19

Now, and they're

52:19

actually I think there could

52:22

they could be much worse. I

52:22

mean, why they why they hate

52:24

transgender people so much. I

52:24

just can't understand. I don't

52:29

think like that. So it is hard

52:29

for me to under

52:32

I think it's

52:32

because well, there's, there

52:35

could be a million reasons why

52:35

transgender bothers them so

52:40

much. Being gay has become much

52:40

more mainstream. We're not there

52:46

yet. Yeah. So they have to have

52:46

something new to go after they

52:51

have somebody. And the fact that

52:51

Trump was able to ban trans

52:57

people from the military showed

52:57

right away that they don't have

53:03

as strong rights as others in

53:03

the LGBT community and she cute

53:09

community. And so they're easy

53:09

to attack. And,

53:14

yeah, they're

53:14

very, they're very wrong. And I,

53:17

I'll say the one

53:17

thing is, it's, it's really hard

53:20

for some people to understand,

53:20

and it's easy to attack what we

53:26

don't understand. And, you know,

53:26

right. This whole thing of,

53:33

we're gonna boycott target,

53:33

because they have gender neutral

53:37

bathrooms now, and that means

53:37

rapists are gonna be hanging out

53:43

in the bathroom. And that's,

53:43

that's so ludicrous. If they

53:48

grasp that anything to get their

53:48

masters well done, it's

53:52

always it is

53:52

always about trans girls and

53:58

trans women. You never hear them

53:58

railing about trans men. Like

54:03

they don't seem to understand

54:03

that trans men exist, and that a

54:08

trans man is going to go into

54:08

the men's room. It's never about

54:11

the men's room. You know? But

54:11

they don't they don't you

54:15

couldn't even begin to have a

54:15

conversation with with most of

54:18

these people, because they can't

54:18

even grasp that. You know,

54:22

and you're right

54:22

about the trans men. You never

54:25

hear them mentioned that all

54:28

now it's always

54:28

about protecting women and girls

54:30

in the girlie bathrooms and all

54:30

this other shit. Yeah, it's part

54:34

of my

54:35

No, that's okay.

54:35

You didn't fuck up by saying

54:37

shit. Don't worry about that.

54:37

Well, Mark is always a pleasure

54:43

to have you on. Oh, you know,

54:43

but I almost forgot. So we

54:47

forgot awkward questions authors

54:47

get. So as you know, I'm going

54:51

to spin the wheel and you're

54:51

going to get a question that

54:53

people sometimes ask us that we

54:53

don't like, for whatever reason.

54:57

Okay, so hang on, and I'm going

54:57

to spit We'll all right.

55:07

Okay, Mark, I've got your

55:07

question. Are you ready?

55:10

Yes, I'm ready. I

55:10

am prepared and I'm buckled in.

55:13

This is not one of

55:13

those that's rude. It's one that

55:17

you understand the reader's

55:17

curiosity, but is so damn hard

55:21

for a writer to answer. And that

55:21

is, where do you get your ideas

55:28

from the world

55:28

around me, and my internal

55:34

filtering of it. I love murder.

55:34

I love thrillers and murder

55:39

mysteries, I've always loved

55:39

them. And so I'll get an idea

55:44

from maybe something I read. I

55:44

remember, one of the cow

55:47

Callahan books is called Kill

55:47

Switch. And it's because I was

55:50

reading about phones, having a

55:50

kill switch on them where you

55:54

could, boy, I can't even

55:54

remember the definition of it.

55:57

But I thought, Wow, that's

55:57

fascinating, basically, so you

56:01

can kill the phone and nobody

56:01

can use it. And I'm dog get that

56:05

idea from there, or a bed and

56:05

breakfast, I get my ideas from

56:07

the world around me and what I'm

56:07

observing, and then I will

56:11

filter it through my evil mind.

56:11

And see what I can come up with.

56:16

I love writing villains, I love

56:16

writing villains, then the mean,

56:20

or the cruel or the more

56:20

perverted.

56:23

agree with you? I

56:23

love a character I can hate and

56:28

just love

56:28

day. And can be so

56:28

mean, because I'm not mean. You

56:33

know, I'm not going to cut

56:33

anybody up and put them in a

56:35

box. But my my character can do

56:35

that.

56:38

Yes, they can. They

56:38

can air those frustrations out

56:45

for you. ideas can come from so

56:45

many places. I was on the bus

56:50

one day and the bus driver, this

56:50

is no lie. She stopped at every

56:56

single bus stop every single

56:56

one. She would open the door,

57:01

look around because there was

57:01

nobody there, close the door and

57:04

drive to the next one and do the

57:04

same. And this went on for a

57:08

while and I didn't know what was

57:08

going on. She said she finally

57:11

she stopped. She opened the door

57:11

and Sheila crunch who is where

57:15

all the people. Needless to say,

57:15

If I ever have her pull up, I

57:20

will not get on her bus. But I

57:20

don't live in Los Angeles

57:24

anymore. So that won't be an

57:24

issue. And the reason I bring

57:28

that up is somehow I don't know

57:28

how it is going to get in, in

57:32

one of my stories one day

57:32

because it was such a bizarre

57:34

event. But that's where we get

57:34

our ideas from anywhere. You

57:38

never know where they're going

57:38

to come from. Well, it's been a

57:41

pleasure having you on again. I

57:41

always enjoyed my conversations

57:44

with you both online through

57:44

chat in here through the magic

57:48

of video calls.

57:51

I liked I had a

57:51

great time. Thank you. Well,

57:53

thank you Mark. It was it was

57:53

invigorating. And again, like

57:57

got me all worked up about

57:59

I'll remember that for the next time you're on. I'll make a list of things to

58:01

really get you round Up