0:00

Today in our premier episode, Justin

0:02

tries to explain a cricket stump up someone's

0:04

ass from Garrick Jones' new novel and

0:07

Michael Craft joins us to talk about ChoirMaster, and

0:10

a talking cat, or does

0:11

he talk?

0:17

Welcome to Gay Mystery Authors

0:19

with Brad Shreve featuring

0:22

interviews with some of the most

0:24

renowned authors on up and coming

0:26

talent in LGBTQ

0:29

mysteries, suspense and

0:31

thrillers. Plus Justin

0:34

Adamec is here with her weekly recommendation.

0:43

Okay, Justine, I know I'm supposed to keep

0:45

my cool. Everything's supposed to just

0:47

kind of smooth and easy, but I'm really

0:49

excited. This is our first one.

0:51

Yeah, kind of the first time on

0:53

the real live tracks. Let's

0:56

give it a go and see how we do

0:58

well then, let's just get started.

1:00

I want to hear what you're going to talk about today.

1:03

Well, I'm going to talk about The. Cricketer's

1:06

Arms by Garrick Jones. I'm going

1:08

to give you an overview of review of that book

1:10

and before I get to that,

1:12

I'm going to let you know about ReQueered Tales,

1:15

which I am one of the partners in.

1:17

We're bringing back gay fiction

1:20

one book at a time. So what

1:22

we do is we get old

1:24

books that are out of print from anywhere between

1:26

Stonewall and the turn of the century. And

1:29

we reproduce them on eBooks books and occasionally

1:31

in print. On September

1:35

27th, we release Banged Up by Jack

1:38

Dickson . And I don't know if you've read the first

1:40

book Free Form. Uh,

1:42

it's a, it's a pretty powerful

1:44

, uh , categorize it very gritty really

1:47

in your face with the sex and the violence.

1:50

But it's not gratuitous

1:52

at all. And the Scottish,

1:54

the dialect, the dialogue

1:57

is written in Scottish dialect phonetically.

2:00

I haven't read it yet. I been trying

2:03

to get caught up on, on current

2:05

writers, which is quite the

2:07

challenge because there's so many. But

2:10

uh, but I've got a long list

2:13

of these are the ones that got to get around to. It's yeah,

2:16

on my list.

2:18

I think you'll like it quite a bit. It's, it's

2:20

very different from anything I h ave seen

2:22

on the market.

2:24

I love gritty.

2:25

It is certainly gritty. So

2:28

how about we get to Garrick

2:30

Jones and The Cricketer's Arms?

2:32

I'm excited about this. I haven't

2:34

read Cricketer's Arms. I read his book,

2:36

the Boys of Ballaroo. Um,

2:39

it's not a mystery novel.

2:41

It was beautifully written. I'm

2:44

going to even admit it made me cry a couple

2:46

of times, which was kind of what it was supposed

2:48

to do. Right. It was so

2:50

excellent. I'm really excited to hear how

2:53

he did with a mystery.

2:55

I think this is his first mystery. Is

2:57

that correct?

2:58

As I understand, I think so.

3:00

it is good. I gotta say

3:02

especially for his first

3:04

time out, it has got the same beautiful writing

3:06

of his other books, but he's really

3:09

mastered the whole mystery

3:11

pacing. Uh, it's got a good

3:13

central mystery and it's got

3:16

various clues peppered throughout

3:18

. So I enjoyed it quite

3:20

a bit. Now it's a long book

3:22

and paperback. It's 404 pages.

3:24

So if you're like me and once

3:26

you open a book, you can't stop

3:28

until it's finished. Well , you might not want

3:30

to start too late evening.

3:33

Oh, you're one of those,.

3:34

Yeah, I'm one of those. I

3:36

bet a lot of people who are listening to this or one of

3:38

those two .

3:40

Yeah, I'm always impressed with that

3:42

because I'm a slow reader and I

3:44

talk to folks like you who say, I

3:46

listened to all these podcasts, I watch all these TV

3:49

shows, I read all these books.

3:51

And I'm like, how the hell

3:54

do you do that?

3:56

Well, you know, sometimes the laundry has to just

3:58

build up. Well, it's

4:01

good to hear the kep you engrossed

4:03

enough to read it all the way through. Um,

4:06

what more can you tell us about it? Well,

4:08

let's see. You know, the, the

4:11

murder mystery is, is rather

4:13

gruesome. They find a

4:15

, uh , top cricketer pegged

4:19

to , uh , on the cricket pitch

4:21

pegged to four posts with a

4:24

cricket stump, which I believe is

4:26

a bat or it may be

4:28

the stump that the pitcher and

4:31

the pitcher's mound, but a cricket stumped

4:33

wedged up is arse. You know,

4:36

there are a lot of it

4:38

set in Australia in 1956

4:41

and there are a lot of Australian phrases

4:44

that I had to look up, for example,

4:48

sly grogger. Have you ever heard of a sly

4:50

grogger?

4:52

Uh, no I haven't.

4:54

Apparently. If someone who sells illegal

4:56

booze after hours,

4:59

This could be kind of fun to learn a lot of this

5:01

new stuff.

5:02

Yeah, it is kind of fun. It's kind of fun.

5:04

But as I'm sitting here talking to you, I realize maybe

5:06

a cricket stump isn't the

5:09

bat , maybe it's the posts . So

5:12

either way, either way,

5:14

it doesn't sound like something you want stuck up

5:16

your ass.

5:17

That's correct. And then so you've

5:20

gotta , you've got that gruesome death and then

5:22

you find out that Clyde Smith, the main

5:24

character was a POW

5:27

in Italy during the war and it's peppered with

5:29

his remembrances. And you would

5:31

think that this is a gritty

5:33

book, but it's not. It's

5:36

a , you know, the main characters

5:38

is rather genteel,

5:40

you know , learned to cook in Italy during

5:42

that time. And he, every morning

5:45

he goes up to the fresh markets and

5:47

gets, you know, what fruit is available

5:49

in the 1950s and

5:52

comes back and cooks meals for his on and off

5:54

again, lover. And he's overall

5:56

a good,

5:58

Does he go much into the past

6:00

as part of being a POW and that sort of

6:02

thing?

6:03

Yeah, he does go into the past.

6:05

It's generally okay.

6:09

Existence where he just kind of got through the

6:12

days. There are times when

6:14

he sees people being killed

6:16

and ends up killing one.

6:18

Let's see, this is kind of exciting for me because anybody

6:20

that knows Garrick Jones, he

6:23

is a master at

6:25

a research. He knows

6:28

the stuff when he's talking about history.

6:30

Uh, so I would guess all the events that take

6:33

place in the fifties are right on

6:35

target.

6:36

Yeah, the read the fifties is exactly

6:38

right. And I was surprised

6:40

at the amount of detail that went into

6:43

an Italian PO war camp, which

6:45

basically, you know, his background

6:47

and provides a good plank to

6:50

build this character on, but

6:52

really doesn't have anything to do with the plot at

6:54

hand. And I thought that was an attention

6:56

to detail and a layering

6:58

that one not only justified the

7:00

400 pages, but showed

7:03

what a great writer he is and how

7:05

this is, well, the blurb

7:07

described it as pulp fiction. It's

7:09

not really a pulp fiction. It's

7:11

a, it's more of a literary

7:14

work which reads

7:16

like a pulp fiction.

7:17

Yeah. It doesn't sound like pop fiction.

7:20

It's got a pulp fiction kind of

7:22

plot. I think that's a good,

7:24

a good way to put it. Paul Fisher kind

7:26

of plot pulp fiction kind of characters.

7:30

But the writing is a step

7:32

above.

7:33

So he goes deep into the main character.

7:36

It goes very deep into the main character.

7:39

What's interesting is that

7:41

he's also, you know, every

7:44

now and then he k ind o f scatters through the

7:46

thoughts on relationships and as

7:48

he gets deeper into the book,

7:51

he really fleshes that out

7:53

in a way that it doesn't take away

7:55

too from the story. And, and

7:57

you know, at the beginning he wants

8:00

the main character. Clyde wants to settle down

8:02

w ith his on and off boyfriend, but

8:04

the on and off boyfriends in the closet and

8:06

has a u h, fiance

8:10

for, you know, for show

8:12

mostly, although he tries

8:14

to pretend even to her that he's straight.

8:16

It was the 1950s,

8:18

it was the 1950s but you

8:20

know, Clyde is out, and I think he

8:22

suffered the consequences on the police

8:25

force and now he's an ex police officer.

8:28

Interesting. It is. It is. And

8:31

so what happens is, you know,

8:33

he's, he's got this on and off again boyfriend

8:35

and you can certainly tell , uh,

8:39

from their interactions that they love each

8:41

other. But you know, they have

8:43

relationships on the side. So he runs

8:45

along having a variety of liaisons.

8:49

Uh, I think it is at once he actually had three

8:51

in one day and he said of his age

8:53

that was getting to be a little difficult.

8:55

Well I think good for him. You know,

8:58

my Kindle is bursting at the seams and

9:00

this is one of them that's in there. So

9:03

I'm going to have to move it up the list a little bit

9:05

it sounds like.

9:06

Yeah, no , I think you really are gonna have

9:08

to do that. You better do it before

9:10

the next Clyde Smith book comes out.

9:13

I'm , I'm really hoping he brings another

9:15

book out with this guy and I think he will

9:17

because the title is a Clyde

9:20

Smith mystery. And why would you say that

9:23

if you weren't in a planning another one?

9:25

sounds to me like there's going to be more and if it's that

9:27

good, I look forward to it.

9:29

Yeah, I think it's great. I think it's one of my

9:31

favorite new books at this point.

9:33

Good. So I'm going to take this as a

9:35

glowing recommendation on your part. That's

9:37

right.?

9:38

I think we should start ranking recommendations

9:40

and this one is glowing,

9:43

Is that, is that, are we going to have

9:45

a, you're going to come up with a list of ranks

9:48

one, two, three kind of overdone.

9:50

Yeah, I know, but I see . Yeah cause generally

9:53

if I do a review a book , uh

9:55

, you know, it's one of my fives.

9:57

I, you know, I read a lot of books

10:00

and while it looks like I have a five, there's

10:02

a lot of below fives . So

10:04

I'm thinking glowing is a ranking

10:07

and that's one kind of five flaming will be

10:09

another ranking. That's one kind of

10:12

five and touching will be another

10:14

kind of five. I'll, I'll come up

10:16

with a list for you.

10:17

That sounds like a good start.

10:20

Okay. So you ready to go with the first show?

10:22

I'm absolutely ready to go for the first show.

10:25

Good luck. Thank you so much

10:27

and we'll see you next week.

10:33

Interact with other crime fiction

10:35

fans and authors in our game.

10:37

Mystery thriller, suspense fiction

10:40

group on Facebook. Links

10:42

are on our website, gay

10:44

mystery, authors.com

10:51

Michael Craft. I've got to say, it is

10:53

a pleasure to have you on here today. Welcome.

10:56

Thank you Brad. It's pleasure to

10:58

be here, especially on your, your inaugural

11:01

podcast. This is great.

11:02

Well I was going to say it's a red letter day for

11:04

both of us, right? The

11:07

first podcast and for you what

11:10

is going on today?

11:11

It is publication day for ChoirMaster.

11:15

M r Puss mystery number

11:17

two. T he second Mr Pus,

11:22

Michael Craft

11:26

is an author of 16 novels including

11:28

the acclaimed Mark Manning, mystery series from

11:31

which three were honored as finalists

11:33

for L ambda a nd literary awards Name

11:36

Games, which came out in 2000 Boy

11:38

Toy in 2 001 in Hot Spot

11:41

in 2002. In addition,

11:43

he is the author of two produce plays

11:46

and his prize winning short fiction has

11:48

appeared in British as well as American

11:50

literary journals. Michael grew up

11:53

in Illinois and spent his

11:55

middle years in Wisconsin, which inspired the

11:57

fictitious setting of his current books,

12:00

which we're g oing t o talk a little bit about. He

12:02

holds an MFA in creative

12:04

writing from Antioch university Los

12:07

Angeles and he currently lives up in the beautiful

12:09

desert in Rancho Mirage, California.

12:13

And it's a beautiful day. Summer

12:17

has ended. That's the main thing,

12:20

so we're ready for fall here.

12:22

You guys wait all

12:25

summer long. Can we probably cool off a little bit.

12:27

Count the days.

12:28

I'll tell you here, here in LA we can see a blue

12:31

sky, so that's very nice.

12:34

I'm going to start out. I normally don't

12:36

like asking where do ideas

12:38

come from? Because it's really hard

12:40

question for an author to answer

12:43

because sometimes we have no idea.

12:45

Well , but you're going to stick me with that question

12:47

anyway

12:49

I have to. This is a

12:51

gay mystery with an

12:54

elderly widow with a talking

12:56

cat Where

13:01

did this come from?

13:03

Well, it was sort of a twisted path.

13:06

I can, I can give you a specific

13:08

moment though. When the germ of

13:10

the idea was planted, this

13:12

was four or five years ago,

13:15

and I was reading a New York times

13:17

column by Maureen Dowd and

13:20

she made passing reference to Tober

13:23

Moray , a talking cat that appeared

13:25

in a 1911

13:28

short story by the author

13:30

known as Saki, S a

13:32

, K. I. Well, this

13:34

kind of peaked my curiosity because

13:37

I was not familiar either with

13:40

the author or with the talking cat. So

13:42

I found the story and read it and

13:44

was thoroughly intrigued by it. And

13:47

then this brought to mind a

13:49

conversation I had had some

13:51

years prior to that with my agent. And

13:54

he knew I liked cats and

13:56

suggested that I might look into cat mysteries.

13:59

Now at the time, I didn't even know

14:02

that existed. I didn't know cat mysteries

14:04

for one thing. But

14:07

one thing led to another and the result

14:09

was Mr. Puss. It started as

14:11

a short story that I entered

14:14

in a contest here

14:16

in Palm Springs with the Palm

14:18

Springs Writers Guild , uh , for their annual

14:21

fiction contest in it took first prize

14:23

and everyone seemed sort of enchanted

14:25

by the idea. That's when I, that's when

14:27

I introduced the cat as belonging

14:30

to the wealthy widow Mary Questman.

14:32

And I just, you know, there , there was enough

14:34

excitement about that story that I thought,

14:37

you know what, I think I can work

14:39

with this. I, I think I can, you

14:42

know, not only stretch it into a novel,

14:44

but this sounds like possibly the basis

14:46

of a series. And I

14:48

knew just instinctively that it was time

14:50

to, back to my roots is a gay mystery

14:53

writer. So I connected,

14:56

you know, the widow and her cat, which

14:58

we don't know if he actually talks, but he, he

15:01

, uh, he certainly seems to make himself

15:03

able to communicate with people

15:05

who he chooses to communicate with. And

15:08

, uh , I , I sort of dovetail

15:11

this into the concept

15:13

of using a character I had developed in an

15:15

earlier collection of

15:18

short stories. Brody Norris, he's

15:22

a gay architect and he becomes sort

15:24

of , uh , a sidekick to the

15:26

local sheriff , uh, helping

15:28

him, you know, solve mysterious

15:30

deaths there on the idyllic little town

15:33

of Dumont, which I had written

15:35

a lot about before.

15:37

I was gonna

15:39

ask you about Dumont because it's the same setting

15:41

as your Mark. Manning series correct.

15:43

Uh , right. Uh, Dumont appears

15:46

in the third Mark Manning book Body

15:48

Language. There are

15:52

seven all together and the first two were set

15:55

in Chicago where Mark

15:57

Manning was a highly regarded reporter for

15:59

the Chicago journal. It took me so

16:02

long to get that first book

16:04

published. By the time the first

16:06

book was in print, I had long left

16:08

Chicago and had moved to

16:10

Wisconsin, Kenosha, Wisconsin,

16:12

to be exact. And I

16:15

really didn't have , um , the

16:18

same day to day contact with the city or

16:20

with the , the big city newsroom

16:23

, uh, that I had known before because I had

16:25

spent 10 years working at the

16:28

Chicago Tribune , uh, not as a writer, but as a

16:30

graphic designer. But I , I had , uh , a

16:32

very good sense of that. By

16:36

the time I had finished drafting the second

16:39

Mark Manning novel, I thought, I , I really can't continue

16:42

this. I need to, you know, I, I need

16:44

to come up with a setting that

16:46

I can write more authoritatively about. Because

16:48

the whole day to day Chicago thing was

16:51

gone. It just, it wasn't there anymore. Also,

16:53

journalism was changing fast

16:55

and I couldn't really set it in

16:58

the newsroom of a big city newspaper

17:00

because, you know, the , the digital tide

17:02

had already, you know, began to

17:04

wash ashore and things

17:07

were changing. So , uh,

17:09

I decided that I would come up

17:11

with a fictitious setting and , uh,

17:13

you know, just after tussling around

17:15

with names and locations and so on,

17:17

I decided it would be a small

17:19

town located in central Wisconsin.

17:22

I named it Dumont. And

17:24

because I was inventing it out of

17:26

whole cloth, I, I could of course

17:28

, uh, you know, structure the town,

17:32

but the mental map of the town that , that

17:34

only, I, that only

17:36

I know, but I could structure it in such

17:38

a way , uh, to, to meet the

17:40

evolving needs of the plots that

17:42

were, were to follow. Whereas if I kept it

17:44

in Chicago, I really couldn't invent

17:46

too much because it's a real city and

17:48

people know it well. So that's how Dumont

17:51

came about

17:52

Dumont is smaller than Kenosha as well,

17:54

correct?

17:54

Yes. Yeah. Kenosha is sort

17:56

of a sort of a small city

17:59

of about 100,000 . But , um,

18:01

I think of Dumont as being, well,

18:04

much smaller than that, you know, 20,

18:06

30,000, something like that. I

18:08

bet it's kind of inspired by

18:11

Appleton is , as I remember

18:13

it. I've only been there once or twice, and I'm sure

18:15

it's bigger than 20 or 30,000, but

18:17

I mean that , that's, that's roughly the

18:19

part of the state , um, with

18:21

Green Bay not too far

18:24

away, that being the biggest city in

18:26

the area. Um, so I

18:28

, I could, I could point to Dumont

18:30

on a map, but only I could see it.

18:34

Let's talk about some of your characters. A

18:37

mr puss. I don't like saying that the person who is

18:39

an owner of an animal, but let's say his

18:42

caretaker, , Mary , tell

18:46

me about her.

18:48

Mary Questman. I

18:50

invented Mary. Uh , when

18:52

I, when I wrote the original Mr

18:54

Puss short story. I mean it,

18:56

I, you know, I kind of invented her

18:59

to meet the need , the needs of the plot.

19:02

Um, I knew about Mr Puss already

19:05

and I, you know, and I just thought, you know, there's

19:07

going to be a kindly old lady. Um,

19:09

I've sort of saw her as

19:12

the, you know, the, the

19:15

kindly old lady and the Tweedy pie cartoons,

19:18

if you remember those, you know ?

19:20

Yeah. Granny it was.

19:21

Was that her name?

19:22

Yes. I don't think she's anything other than

19:24

granny.

19:26

And , uh, and then, you know, once I, once

19:28

I had a, you know, a visual

19:30

image of her, she needed a name

19:32

and she needed circumstances and I

19:34

don't recall the exact chain

19:36

of events that made her a wealthy

19:39

widow. But that's, that's

19:41

who she became.

19:43

And then we have Brody who you talked about helping

19:45

the local sheriff. He

19:47

has the husband Marson .

19:49

Yes. Actually

19:53

, uh , Brody and Marson

19:56

were the principal characters in

19:59

a collection of linked short

20:01

stories that I wrote several years ago called

20:03

inside Dumont. I

21:19

ended up with this collection of, of a

21:21

dozen stories that introduced a lot

21:23

of characters in, in a , in

21:26

a sense, each of the stories sort

21:28

of acted as elaborate c haracter sketches

21:31

for me and then you know, later

21:33

on I realized, wow, there's a lot of

21:35

fertile material there and

21:38

you know, I can pick and choose from this

21:40

freely now in terms of whatever

21:42

the next book is going to be. And that was at

21:44

the same time Mr Puss was happening

21:46

in my head. Mr Puss does not, does

21:49

not appear in the collection of short stories,

21:51

but Brody Norris does, and

21:54

his husband, the architect, Marson

21:56

Miles, he's actually the linking

21:58

character in all of the stories

22:01

and inside Dumont. Uh , and in

22:03

some of those stories, he is

22:05

front and center and you're in his head.

22:08

Uh , and , and other stories he's just passing

22:10

through, but he's always there.

22:13

Well, you were talking about overlapping stories.

22:16

So that actually brings me to the next

22:18

character reporter, Glee Savage.

22:21

Oh, I love Gleave . Thank you for bringing

22:23

her up. The first time we've

22:25

seen Glee

22:28

was in all of the Mark

22:30

Manning mysteries once the series moved

22:32

to Dumont. So she was in there

22:34

. There, there are seven Mark Manning

22:37

mysteries. So she, she played an important

22:39

role in the last five.

22:42

Uh , she served as a

22:44

features editor of the local paper,

22:47

the Dumont Daily Register. She

22:49

worked for Mark Manning in the

22:51

years when he ran that paper. And

22:54

I had no doubt, you know, as I began

22:56

to consider the possibilities for

22:59

the Mr Puss series, I knew it would be

23:01

in Dumont. I knew that Brody

23:03

Norris was going to be the central character and of course

23:06

the cat was going to be there. And there's

23:08

I was also certain that

23:10

many , uh , previous readers would

23:12

recognize Dumont as having

23:15

already been established in the Mark

23:17

Manning series. So I, you know, I

23:19

wrestled with some questions that

23:21

the outset is to , uh , how

23:23

specific do I make the link of

23:25

the new series to the old series and

23:27

what I, you know, what I finally decided on

23:29

was that Glee Savage would indeed

23:32

appear, you know, prominently

23:34

in the new series and she's the only character

23:37

from the old series , uh , who is

23:39

in the Mr Puss series as you

23:41

may have discovered in reading , uh,

23:44

the second installment of Mr Puss,

23:46

titled ChoirMaster out today.

23:48

There are finally some references,

23:51

specific references to Mark

23:53

Manning. It's left as an open

23:55

question as to what became

23:58

of him. Many readers have

24:00

been asking me about that. And

24:02

then at the very end of this book,

24:04

choir master, in fact, on the last

24:07

page , uh, there is an

24:09

important clue regarding

24:12

what the next novel in the series is going to

24:14

be about.

24:16

Go any further than that.

24:18

We won't go further than that, but people who want

24:20

to know more , uh, you know, we'll,

24:22

you know, we'll definitely find it in

24:24

the third installment.

24:26

I think it's great that you used her too to

24:28

tie these together while still

24:31

having separate stories,

24:33

Right. And it gives, you know, it gives prior

24:35

readers a sense of being anchored

24:37

, uh , to , to the new series

24:39

already. They know Glee and , and she's,

24:41

she's such a memorable character.

24:44

Um, you know, also I should mention that, you

24:46

know, one of the reasons I decided to hold

24:48

on to her and to hold onto this

24:51

connection to the local paper, the

24:53

Dumont daily register, is that I,

24:55

I enjoy adding those epistolary

24:58

elements to the novel where you're reading

25:00

clippings of news stories. I

25:02

know this seems a little antiquated, almost

25:05

quaint. Now. You know how many people actually

25:07

read a physical newspaper but in Dumont,

25:09

they still do. And I

25:11

find that those news clippings are

25:14

an excellent way and excellent,

25:16

efficient way , um , to handle

25:19

certain elements of exposition

25:21

to a story. As you're moving along. You

25:23

know, you reach a point where you just want to get the

25:25

facts down and it would look, it

25:28

would be a terrible disservice

25:30

to the reader to just, you know, do an exposition

25:32

dump into the end of the real

25:34

narrative of the book. But then when you say,

25:37

you know, he picked up the paper and he read this story

25:39

and it reads like a news story and it's just

25:41

the facts. It's really, I

25:43

found a great way to

25:46

impart information in a believable

25:48

way

25:49

How is

26:00

this different than the Mark Manning series?

26:03

Obviously it's, it's a whole different

26:05

set of characters except for Glee.

26:08

Uh, and while , uh, while

26:10

the main character is a gay man

26:12

, uh , who is involved in a relationship

26:15

with another gay man, in fact, they're married

26:17

, uh , that's not a

26:19

central focus of

26:21

these stories the way it was in

26:23

the Mark Manning stories. Uh,

26:25

you know, the , the first Mark Manning novel

26:28

was sort of his coming out story

26:30

and then he committed to his lover

26:33

and then they sort of adopted

26:35

a foster son and

26:38

you know, and the aspects of their gay life

26:40

were very, very central.

26:43

The whole telling of those books

26:45

, uh , in the current series. Uh

26:47

, Mr Puss that's all there,

26:50

but it's treated much more matter of factly.

26:53

And I think in a sense , uh , that

26:56

that's a reflection of the times.

26:59

I think society as a whole and

27:02

literary tastes more specifically

27:05

have become , uh , not only

27:07

accepting of gay characters

27:10

and gay main characters in books, but

27:12

there's, there's almost an expectation that

27:15

this will be treated more matter of factly

27:18

than it once had to be.

27:20

It's refreshing. It used to be every story

27:22

seemed like it was a coming out story. And

27:25

the fact that you have a married couple

27:27

that just happened to be two gay

27:29

men that are married is very refreshing

27:31

to me and I , I appreciate that. Ace reporter

27:34

Glee Savage. What

27:38

would she tell me about Michael

27:40

Craft?

27:41

Ooh, she

27:44

would tell me. She would tell you

27:47

that I remind her

27:49

somewhat of Mark Manning and

27:52

I remind her somewhat of Brody

27:54

Norris, both of whom she has

27:56

been very close to is the author

27:58

in question. Uh , I can tell you that

28:00

there's a little bit of me in

28:02

every character I write, but

28:05

no one character is me.

28:08

I would say that's probably pretty common with most

28:10

writers. There's always a little piece of

28:12

us in every character. Sometimes

28:15

we don't like to admit that depending on the character.

28:19

You have a diverse background. You've , written 16

28:22

novels, three of which, as I said,

28:24

were finalists in the Lambda Literary awards

28:26

. Uh , you're a playwright, a screenwriter.

28:28

You've written some short stories. In

28:31

what way has this diversity helped you in

28:33

your writing?

28:35

I've, I've found later life

28:38

to be , uh, such a, such

28:40

a fertile time for allowing

28:42

yourself to, allowing myself

28:45

to explore all of these aspects

28:48

of, of creating and

28:50

writing as I was coming

28:52

of age and say turning

28:54

30, that when I, you

28:56

know , that's when I made up my mind that

28:59

I really wanted to take seriously this

29:01

dream I had held for a long

29:03

time to write a novel, not

29:06

only write a novel, but , but have it published.

29:09

Um, that became sort of an obsessive

29:11

thing for me. It took 12 years

29:14

to get the first novel published. So it was,

29:16

it was published when I was 42 then

29:19

I was kind of on a roll. I had

29:21

, I was under contract for a number of years

29:23

to produce murder mysteries on a yearly

29:26

basis. And I did, and I enjoyed it.

29:28

But both of those , uh

29:30

, mystery series began to

29:33

get stale. Both of those

29:35

mystery series, I felt had reached

29:37

their logical conclusion. Um

29:39

, and I wanted, you know , I wanted

29:42

to put a period on them, which I did,

29:44

which left me some time to rethink.

29:47

And that was about the time that I was thinking of moving

29:49

to California, thinking of going back to school,

29:52

finishing an MFA, because I

29:54

, you know , I did not yet have a master's

29:56

degree and very much wanted

29:59

on it to do that. I'd always been

30:01

into theater. That's reflected in

30:03

a lot of the novels. And

30:05

uh , so I was trying my hand at playwriting.

30:08

I was trying my hand at short stories.

30:11

I was searching for

30:13

what it was that I really wanted

30:15

to do with the rest of my life, especially

30:18

now that now that we're getting older, and

30:20

lo and behold, I came back to that original

30:23

calling, which is long form

30:25

fiction. It doesn't always have to be

30:27

a murder mystery. It doesn't always have to be

30:29

a gay murder mystery. But I

30:32

really do find that my first love is

30:34

in long form fiction. It's

30:36

a wonderful kind of project

30:39

to , to wed for a while.

30:41

You can't knock out a novel, or at least

30:44

you shouldn't. It takes me,

30:47

I don't know, a year, a

30:49

year to produce a novel and it's a very

30:51

obsessive sort

30:53

of procedure and a very obsessive

30:55

period, especially the drafting

30:57

period after, you know, after

31:00

it's outlined and researched and ready to go,

31:02

and it's time to put 100,000 words

31:04

on paper or 70,000 words

31:06

or whatever it's going to be. Um,

31:08

that is, that is one of the most

31:11

intensive kind of activities

31:14

that I think anyone can, can it engage

31:16

in. And for me, once I'm, you know , once

31:18

I'm into a draft, it is seven days

31:21

a week. Um, it's not eight hours

31:23

a day. I

31:26

don't know about you Brad, but I, I find that

31:29

drafting, which is what most people

31:31

think of as writing, you know, and they

31:33

think of an author at the keyboard,

31:35

you know, to me that's drafting. Um,

31:38

I find that to be emotionally

31:41

and physically exhausting. I

31:43

mean, if I put in a good three

31:45

hours for it, the max, you know, I

31:47

am, I'm ready to quit and I won't force

31:49

myself to work longer

31:52

than that each day. Uh , you know, just

31:54

because I , I don't think I can do

31:56

my best work when I'm tired.

31:58

And that's actually one of the interesting things about being a

32:01

writer. We, we have a love for writing.

32:03

It's actually a passion, but it is

32:05

exhausting and a lot of work and

32:07

you really, you really have to love it

32:10

to do it.

32:10

People who have not done it, who

32:12

have not tussled with

32:15

a difficult sentence or a seemingly

32:17

impossible transition, you

32:19

know, to get you from point A to point B

32:21

in the, in the narrative you're trying to construct.

32:24

I mean, really, unless

32:26

you've done it, you can't appreciate how

32:29

difficult that is and what

32:32

an exhausting mental process it is

32:34

to make it work. And then of course there's

32:36

revision. You

32:39

know, it's funny. And when I,

32:41

when I wrote my first novel

32:44

that was before personal computers, and

32:47

in fact it was while I was in

32:49

, uh , I was still working at

32:51

the Chicago Tribune, but I was living in Kenosha.

32:54

So I was riding a train

32:56

every day commuting. And that added

32:58

about four hours a day , uh,

33:01

to my, you know , Workday when I just

33:03

was sitting there on a train with a briefcase

33:05

in my lap. And I thought this would be a

33:07

good time and a good, you know, in a

33:09

good way to put that time to use would be

33:11

to finally write

33:13

, literally handwrite , uh

33:15

, that first novel that I wanted to tell.

33:17

So it was a matter of of

33:20

drafting on the train every

33:23

day in long hand , getting home at night

33:25

, uh, transcribing what I had written

33:27

that day by typewriter and watching

33:29

the pages pile up. And then, you know, after

33:31

finally once there was a first draft,

33:33

you know, a second draft meant retyping

33:35

the whole novel. I mean, there was, you

33:38

know , there was no word processing. Um,

33:40

so, you know, revision was an ominous

33:43

and scary process at the time because,

33:45

you know , you know, you could do it once,

33:47

you could do it twice, but you didn't really want to get

33:49

into it much beyond that because that meant retyping

33:52

the novel each time. Well, of course, now

33:54

with word processing everywhere,

33:56

I mean that that changes everything. It is

33:58

amazing how that has removed

34:01

the barrier to revision. So

34:04

the point that I'm getting at in a very circular

34:06

way is that now even drafting

34:09

contains a lot of revision as

34:11

you go. If you don't like it, you type the sentence over

34:14

and you know, and, and you can, you continually

34:16

revise. But my , uh,

34:18

as you , right as you draft, but

34:20

my routine is I will

34:22

start today, start the, the writing

34:25

day by doing a very

34:27

close, tight edit of whatever I

34:29

wrote the previous day. And that kind of gets

34:31

me back into the story and gets my fingers

34:34

moving on the keyboard. Um, and

34:36

then I will do my quota.

34:38

I hate, hate to use that term,

34:40

but you know, the, I will reach

34:42

the goal that I've set for myself for

34:45

the next days drafting. Um, and of course I'm

34:47

revising it as I go along and

34:50

then the next day it starts over. You know, I , I

34:52

just back it up a little, try to look

34:54

at it with fresh eyes, fresh eyes after a

34:56

night's sleep and then move

34:58

on to the, you know, move on to the

35:00

next day's production.

35:02

The mechanics certainly has changed of

35:04

how we write from typewriters

35:06

to word processors. Now that

35:09

you brought up earlier, you started

35:11

your first draft in 1980 and

35:13

it did take you 12 years, which is not

35:15

uncommon for a first novel . Emotionally, how

35:19

was that period for you?

35:22

It was very

35:24

difficult. Um, it

35:27

not only did it take 12 years

35:30

to get a first novel published, but

35:32

along the way, there were 27 rejections.

35:34

I kept them, I counted them and

35:39

I, you know, I took heart in that, you

35:41

know, not all of those rejections were just

35:43

form letters or form postcards

35:45

in some cases, but there were enough

35:48

instances when an editor would

35:50

take the time to write a short letter and say, you

35:52

know, this is, there's a lot of good

35:54

things happening here, but you might consider

35:57

this or that. And , uh , I took

35:59

advice like that to be gold

36:01

and , uh , I just kept revising.

36:04

And so I think the , uh, you

36:06

know, the old Maxim that persistence

36:09

pays, you know, really does have a

36:11

certain kernel of truth to it that

36:13

said, persistence doesn't always

36:16

pay, you know, but

36:18

, uh, you know, if , if you give up, you

36:20

know that you'd failed. Um, and

36:22

it , it, but on the other hand, if

36:24

you keep on trying , uh, there,

36:26

there is always that , uh, that

36:29

chance that you're gonna make it. And I

36:31

think I had a happy ending or

36:33

a happy beginning.

36:36

It sounds like you had both. And

36:38

you know, I think for a new writer it's important

36:41

for them to know, you get 27

36:43

rejection letters and part of it may mean

36:45

that you have to grow as a writer, but

36:47

sometimes it's just a matter of timing. It just isn't

36:49

the right book for that particular publisher at that.

36:51

Right. That's absolutely right.

36:54

So not every rejection letters is a rejection

36:56

against you. If you take it personally,

36:58

you're going to have a really tough time. Even

37:00

though it's really hard not to take it personally.

37:03

Right. And I mean, I actually, when the

37:05

first Mark Manning book sold, that

37:07

was a matter of being in the right place at the right

37:09

time with a new agent who

37:12

was, you know, had inner connections

37:14

in that genre. And, you know, it was

37:16

like, we're ready to go. And, and

37:19

when I first connected with him , um,

37:22

he said, do you think you could

37:25

maybe workup very rough

37:27

, uh, like pitches for

37:30

subsequent titles and we could make this a

37:32

series and I think we can go out and get a three

37:34

book deal. And I thought he's

37:36

crazy. You know, I've been struggling

37:39

for years to get anyone just to look at,

37:41

you know, at what I've been writing. And

37:43

he thinks he's going to go out and sell

37:45

three at once. And by golly,

37:47

it took him 10 days to do it. And

37:50

I was off and running with the first three

37:52

Mark Manning books with Kensington books.

37:55

Um, flight dreams was the first Mark.

37:57

Manning and Flight Dreams was the

37:59

first gay novel published by

38:01

Kensington because they wanted onto that

38:04

bandwagon, which was, you know,

38:06

which was pretty hot in the

38:08

late eighties.

38:09

How have

38:14

y ou grown as a w riter since back then?

38:17

Over the years I feel I've grown as

38:19

a writer in the same sense that

38:21

I've grown as a person. For

38:24

instance, when I began the Mark

38:27

Manning series, he was not a particularly

38:29

likable character. He was rather

38:31

arrogant. He was rather

38:34

self-assured. Uh , at

38:36

the time I thought that made him heroic

38:39

and I don't anymore.

38:42

So you know, the characters I write

38:44

have changed significantly in

38:46

that time because my own thinking

38:48

has changed in so many ways.

38:51

That's all you're going to get on that one.

38:53

That's fine . It's a perfectly good answer.

38:57

You, you kinda talked about the, the first draft and

38:59

that being so tough. What do you find is the hardest

39:01

thing about writing?

39:04

Hands down, what I find the

39:06

toughest thing about writing a

39:08

book is

39:10

getting the idea for it in the first

39:13

place. That element

39:15

of inspiration,

39:17

that's a commodity that you can't

39:20

plan on. Um, it's,

39:22

it's not like doing research. It's not

39:24

like doing outlining. It's not like committing

39:27

to sitting at the word processor for

39:29

hours a day. You've got to

39:31

have the idea, something that inspires

39:34

you to , uh , to , to

39:37

take that idea and spin it into

39:39

a story that's gonna, you know, captivate

39:41

or reader for 80 or a hundred thousand

39:44

words. They are far

39:46

and few between. And I

39:48

know that when I'm between projects,

39:50

that is the source

39:52

of most of my angst.

39:55

What is the next one? Where's

39:57

that going to come from? And all I

39:59

can do at a time like that is, you

40:01

know, I like to talk about raising

40:03

my creative antenna and

40:05

you know, just, just being ready

40:07

to snag

40:09

any idea that comes along. It may be snippet

40:12

of something I read or hear

40:14

or it may just appear out

40:16

of nowhere, but when

40:18

it comes, I know. And

40:21

uh, and that's when

40:23

, uh, sort of obsessive note-taking

40:25

begins. I do go through a phase at the start

40:28

of each book where I'm just taking random notes.

40:30

I'm not trying to structure a plot.

40:33

Um, I'm just trying to, to

40:35

expand on the germ

40:37

of an idea. And that is

40:39

the hardest part because it's so uncertain

40:42

and unpredictable and you can't

40:44

just flip a switch and make

40:46

it happen.

40:47

Yeah. You can just sit down at the keyboard

40:49

and say, I am creative right now

40:52

and I'm beginning my day. It

40:56

wish it was that easy. You know , I write

40:58

, I find if you're like me sometimes

41:01

coming up with a new idea, I'm just staring at the wall.

41:03

And then other times I'm walking

41:05

down the street and it hits me like a

41:08

brick in the side of the head just

41:11

to just say, okay, here's my idea. Out of

41:13

nowhere, it's very difficult.

41:15

And plus the fact you're , you're , you're

41:18

sort of, you know, it's , it's not just, you know, what

41:20

jazzes me, but it's, you know,

41:22

what would jazz a reader. And

41:24

so, I mean, I have to be,

41:26

I have to think that, you know, readers are going to find

41:29

this as exciting as I do. And

41:31

conversely, you know, I won't

41:33

just write what I think readers are going to like.

41:36

I have to be really enthralled with it.

41:39

Now you had hinted earlier

41:42

that about this not being the end of Mr

41:46

Puss, so it sounds like

41:48

that we can expect more of Mr Puss in the

41:50

future.

41:51

Oh yes. What does the

41:53

future hold for him that you will , well,

41:56

I know there's going to be a third

41:58

installment because I've begun

42:01

drafting it. It's outlined, it's

42:03

ready to go. Um, and

42:06

then beyond that , uh, I'm

42:08

not sure. One thing that

42:11

I am sure of , and this has me rather excited.

42:14

Some months ago I got an

42:16

email out of the blue from

42:18

an editor who was putting , uh,

42:21

putting together a new

42:23

anthology that will be titled

42:25

Palm Springs Noir. Um,

42:28

and one

42:32

of the things they're known for, one of their specialties

42:35

is this series that's city

42:38

Noir books,

42:40

anthologies. And uh,

42:43

it started I think with Brooklyn war

42:45

and there is Chicago and Los

42:48

Angeles and Las Vegas for they

42:50

have a very broad readership

42:53

and uh , it, it's, it's a great concept.

42:56

Uh, they will settle on

42:58

a city or an area and

43:00

recruit , um, a group

43:02

of writers, usually 14,

43:05

and each writer contributes noir

43:08

short stories set in a different

43:10

, uh, location in that city

43:13

or area. Noir

43:19

is not my style. I mean not

43:21

my style in terms of what I have done

43:23

in the past. And I think for that reason

43:25

I just jumped at the chance. I

43:27

thought this, this will be an exciting, you

43:30

know, an exciting opportunity to try out

43:32

something new. And I had an absolute

43:34

ball with it.

43:36

The book can be exciting to me being, being

43:38

in Los Angeles and having spent

43:40

a little time in Palm

43:42

Springs.

43:44

But you know, I also love the irony

43:46

of, you know, doing noir in Palm

43:48

Springs, which is 350

43:51

days of sunshine a year. And the

43:53

whole whole concept of, of finding

43:56

its darker seedier side, you know,

43:58

just has a really wonderful

44:00

ironic twist built into it

44:03

that it does, that's part of what's going to make it so interesting.

44:06

Yeah, no . Oh and also, I

44:08

mean it's not, it's not a a

44:10

gay anthology, but you know, if we're

44:12

talking Palm Springs, you know, how,

44:14

how can you avoid that? Why would you

44:16

avoid it? Anyway, my story

44:18

for instance is , you know, my

44:21

regular gay readership will

44:23

not be disappointed in this one,

44:25

but the, the entire anthology will

44:27

not consist of gays , I know of

44:29

at least a couple other authors

44:31

who are contributing to it.

44:33

Yeah. And for those that aren't familiar with , with

44:36

Palm Springs today, it has grown

44:38

into a very large gay community. Part

44:40

of the reason is because San Francisco is just gotten

44:42

outrageously expensive and

44:45

Palm Springs is dramatically cheaper and

44:47

it's just a beautiful place to retire to or

44:50

move to .

44:55

And also it's such a unique

44:57

setting. Uh , you know, it's,

44:59

it's, you know, it's this paradise

45:02

built in an Oasis. Uh

45:04

, you know, it , it is, it is a desert.

45:06

It's surrounded by mountains. I

45:08

mean it just, you know, totally

45:11

beautiful landscape that lends

45:13

itself to, you know, lush description

45:16

and , uh , and I don't hesitate

45:18

to go that route.

45:20

Yeah . Well I'm a big fan of mid century modern furniture

45:22

and homes, so I'm, I'm in heaven. I'm

45:25

in heaven when I'm in Palm Springs. So I

45:28

have a question that I have that I

45:30

will ask questions that writers hate.

45:36

So give me a second here and we'll spin

45:38

the wheel.

45:38

Wheel Spins

45:44

Okay. Here's the question

45:46

I have for you. I

45:49

hear there's big money in erotica. Why

45:51

don't you write that?

45:54

Actually the first series,

45:56

the Mark Manning's series has a

45:58

lot of erotic material to

46:00

it. Um, I sort

46:03

of facetiously named my sub

46:06

genre as being the , uh,

46:08

the erotic, cozy,

46:12

you know, I mean, it was just, you know , but, but

46:15

I mean, I, I really have a lot of explicit

46:17

erotic material throughout the Mark

46:19

Manning series. Um, it

46:21

was, it sold well I think,

46:24

but I hope not solely

46:26

because of that. Um, I

46:29

don't think so.

46:31

So the short answer is there really isn't

46:34

big money in erotica, at least not

46:36

for most of us because , but , uh,

46:38

but on the other hand, I have written

46:41

it, but I'm not doing it now.

46:43

Well, there's, I think there's a big difference between having

46:45

erotic scenes or erotica

46:47

within a novel and having a novel that is

46:50

designated as an erotic novel.

46:53

There's a very big difference , uh , in

46:56

my opinion. Uh,

46:58

so if for our listeners, if

47:00

they want to reach you or purchase

47:02

your books, what is the best way for them to do that?

47:05

The best way to do that is to go to my

47:07

website. It's very easy to find.

47:10

It's michaelcraft .com. Craft

47:14

with a C michaelcraft.com. Uh

47:16

, right on the homepage, you'll find everything

47:20

you need to know about the new book, how to order

47:22

it. It's , it's available now in

47:25

hardcover paperback and ebook.

47:27

So you know, whatever you're, whatever

47:30

your reading preferences there, there

47:32

is an addition to suit your needs. Um,

47:35

also from the , uh, from

47:37

my website, you can email

47:39

me if anyone would like to, you

47:41

know, like to discuss any of this

47:43

further or anyone who wants

47:46

to connect with me on Facebook can

47:48

find me there.

47:50

So it's actually one easy place to find you in

47:52

your books, michaelcraft .com that

47:54

makes it, that makes it nice and convenient. I

47:56

do want to thank you for your time. I'm very excited

47:58

that you were the person that was here for my premiere

48:01

episode.

48:01

Oh, and I'm just delighted and

48:04

honored Brad to do this with you. I

48:07

think it , it bodes well for both

48:09

of us. We both have excellent taste.

48:15

I will agree with you. So thank

48:18

you very much for your time, Michael.

48:21

My pleasure.

48:28

If you have an idea to help improve the show or

48:30

would just like to make a comment, go

48:33

to our website, gaymysteryauthors.com. Click

48:36

the link for contact. You'll find a number

48:38

that you can call and leave a message, or you

48:40

can just fill out the contact form. We

48:42

look forward to hearing from you.

48:46

Go to our website, gaymysteryauthors.com

48:50

for links to subscribe on your

48:52

favorite podcast applications

48:55

so you don't miss a single episode.

48:57

You'll also find transcripts

49:00

of this and other shows. We're

49:02

here every week. Thank you for

49:04

listening.