0:00

In this episode, my guest is PJ

0:02

Vernon author, a Bath Haus, where

0:04

we discuss, how do you research

0:07

bath houses when you're writing a book

0:09

about bath houses? Plus

0:11

Justene recommends a book that

0:13

overwhelmed her by just how bad

0:15

a day. a protagonist can

0:18

have. I'm Brad Shreve

0:20

and you're listening to Queer Writers of Crime,

0:22

where we feature LGBTQ

0:24

authors. of mystery, suspense

0:27

and thriller fiction.

0:38

What's going on, Brad?

0:40

Justene I have a interesting

0:42

situation here. I am with

0:45

my in-laws up in the California desert,

0:48

which is very awkward, cause I'm

0:50

used to my nice, comfortable little studio.

0:53

section of my apartment. And

0:56

right now I'm sitting on a day bed

0:58

with my computer and microphone on a card

1:01

table.

1:02

that's always fun.

1:03

it's, it's. It works.

1:06

Let's put it that way. So if there's a little bit of

1:08

difference in the sound, people know why they,

1:10

it could be echoing, cause I don't have all the soundproofing

1:12

and that sort of thing. So, but I don't

1:14

think there'll be able to tell a difference. And it's,

1:17

it's been beautiful up in the desert. I'm not looking forward to this

1:19

next week. It's going to be in the mid nineties for the

1:21

rest of the week. But

1:22

Oh, my, I really would like mid nineties

1:24

anytime soon.

1:26

Yeah, I know, I know you would. but

1:28

it's very comfortable and they're nice folks. So that's

1:30

a good thing. I have a few things

1:33

to talk about very quickly. Last

1:36

week, I talked about Have a Blessed Gay

1:38

with Tyler Martin. Remember

1:40

I talked about that podcast. I

1:43

listened to it and I need to clarify

1:45

something because I made it sound like it was

1:47

a show for athiests. And that

1:49

not is not what it is. I

1:51

was talking about that particular episode

1:53

where he discussed the. history

1:55

of Jesus and the beginning of Christianity,

1:58

but nowhere does he deny that there's

2:00

divine inspiration there as well.

2:03

that's just, not included in what he talked

2:05

about. And he talks about all religions

2:08

and all spiritual beliefs. it's generally

2:10

for everything and he's

2:12

open to it and treats them all respectfully.

2:14

So I just wanted to clarify that,

2:16

okay. Good.

2:17

not a, it is not an atheist show.

2:20

It was just your atheism slipping through

2:22

in your, to the discussion, not his.

2:25

That is correct. That is correct.

2:28

Then I'm going to bring up something with, Buy Me

2:30

a Cup of Coffee.

2:31

Ah,

2:32

We had one of our listeners

2:34

AC. And I

2:36

got to tell you, I was confused. Do you remember the Howard

2:38

Cosell show that I'm going to date us

2:40

here? and

2:43

Howard Cosell back in 1975,

2:45

Yes.

2:46

It was supposed to replace the Ed Sullivan

2:48

show and it lasted about a year.

2:51

Oh, did it last that long? Well, I, I

2:53

would have guessed it only lasted two episodes.

2:56

It lasted a little, little longer than

2:58

that, but it wasn't around for very long.

3:01

Anyway. I remember. I

3:03

was much younger, but teenage girl across the

3:05

street, came to my house and said, you've

3:08

got to watch the Howard Cosell

3:10

show tonight. He has a band

3:12

on that they say are going to be the next

3:15

Beatles.

3:16

Ah,

3:17

Do you know what band that was?

3:19

Rolling Stones.

3:21

Well, no, they'd been waiting. They were there way before the

3:23

Beatles. They start in the early sixties.

3:25

Yeah, but they didn't get big until after the Beatles. Didn't

3:27

they?

3:28

Uh, no, they were pretty big. They were pretty

3:30

big but it was K.C. and

3:32

the Sunshine Band.

3:33

Oh my, Oh my,

3:36

that, that does date. You

3:39

It does for those that don't know

3:41

K.C. And the Sunshine Band, I think they ended

3:43

around the disco era.

3:44

started and ended.

3:47

Yeah. Yeah. that's the

3:49

way, uh-huh-uh-huh I like it. That's

3:52

the song. most people probably know them from. So

3:54

anyway, I'm going off on this tangent because

3:56

when I saw AC I

3:59

all of a sudden got my head K.C.

4:01

And I thought maybe he's K.C.

4:03

With K.C. And the Sunshine Band. Maybe

4:06

he retired. I

4:14

know it's anyway,

4:17

so he has nothing to do with K.C. and the Sunshine

4:19

Band, I just thought I'd bring them up. So

4:22

his name is AC and he lives

4:24

in Provincetown and I've heard there's

4:26

a lot of gay people that live in Provincetown.

4:29

And he loves listen to the show

4:31

when he's out working in his garden. And

4:34

he had nice things to say about you

4:36

and I and the both of us together. So

4:39

he said, he's thrilled. he found

4:41

it. He also said, he's very

4:43

happy that we brought back the wheel.

4:46

Oh, good.

4:47

Yes. Yep, yep. Uh,

4:49

he is a writer though. I don't think he's writing currently.

4:52

And he said he was, it makes him very

4:54

happy to hear other writers

4:56

get those bizarre questions that

4:58

he always got.

5:00

That's good. Yes. Well,

5:02

I suspect all writers get something similar

5:04

to that.

5:05

Yeah. Yes. So again, it's AC

5:07

and Provincetown and AC, thank

5:10

you very much. I'm sure your garden

5:12

is beautiful. And again, he donated

5:14

to us from Buy Me a Cup of Coffee. And

5:17

if you folks would like to do the same, you

5:19

can go to our website and there's a button

5:21

there that has it, or even better

5:24

right there in the show notes. There's a link you can click.

5:26

And as I keep repeating

5:29

myself, I will do this show

5:31

no matter what I love doing the show.

5:33

And I think it's important, but

5:36

any help to keep it up and running

5:38

is greatly appreciated.

5:40

and they're not actually buying us a cup of coffee

5:42

because all that money just gets folded back

5:44

into production.

5:46

And I worked out and only one cup of coffee anyway.

5:48

So yes, it goes into the production. It

5:50

goes into pay for my editing software and a blah

5:52

blah blah blah. I could go on the list, but it'd

5:55

be kind of boring. It's all of the technical side

5:57

they're paying for and the small

5:59

and the small stipend I give Justene

6:01

each week.

6:03

Yeah, no, he's not giving me a stipend.

6:05

Don't let him, he is selling

6:07

you a bill of goods.

6:10

Yeah, I force you need to read a book

6:12

every week or more, to

6:15

keep you on your toes

6:16

Well, you know, we may have to just give me

6:18

a break when the fall TV series,

6:20

you know, Starts up in earnest

6:22

because beginning of the

6:25

Fall, I just watching TV and not reading.

6:28

Well, I have it settled in the Fall for

6:30

us to have two weeks in a row off. There

6:32

will be some things for our listeners to listen to,

6:35

but it's going to mostly done in

6:37

advance. And I think

6:39

they'll enjoy it for two weeks in a row. We certainly

6:41

will enjoy having two weeks off in a row.

6:43

We certainly will. We certainly will.

6:46

And I think that was

6:49

it. Um, yeah.

6:51

My guest today is, PJ Vernon. We talk

6:54

about his book Bath Haus

6:56

and, it's a really good book and

6:59

it was, a fun conversation. So

7:01

with that, I'm turning everything over

7:04

to you. Okay.

7:05

Okay. What book am I doing? Okay, now

7:07

I've got my notes. I've I've been waiting. Uh,

7:10

this is called Vera Kelly

7:13

is not a Mystery and the

7:15

author is Rosalie Knecht and

7:18

this book's got a great pedigree. It

7:20

just won the GP

7:23

Putnam's Son's, Sue

7:25

Grafton Memorial Award.

7:28

that's a big deal.

7:29

Well, and what is that Memorial

7:31

award part of?

7:32

That is part of the Edgar awards

7:35

from the Mystery Writers of America.

7:37

Yeah, it is a very, very,

7:39

uh, high award. And

7:41

not only has it been, uh,

7:43

well, It's been

7:45

nominated for the Lambda, Best

7:47

LGBTQ mystery. And,

7:50

I think the Edgars is,

7:52

is a far higher award, but, the

7:55

Edgar doesn't necessarily focus on

7:57

gay content.

7:58

No, they have, they used to be kind of snubbed

8:01

their nose a little bit at it, looking

8:03

yeah. But I looked at.

8:05

has really changed, changed.

8:06

Yes, it has really changed. It has indeed

8:09

really changed.

8:10

In fact, our good friend, Greg Heron

8:12

is, uh, I believe he's the vice President

8:14

of Mr. Writers of America this year, or what's

8:16

the past year.

8:18

Yes. Yes.

8:20

So what do you have to tell us about Vera Kelly

8:22

and

8:23

Vierra Kelly is not a mystery.

8:26

Okay.

8:26

This is the second book in the series

8:29

and, but it works as a standalone.

8:32

In the first book, Vierra Kelly is

8:34

a spy, a CIA

8:37

operative. That

8:39

to me seems like an equivalent agent, but,

8:41

she ends up, at the end of the book,

8:43

quitting the agency. So now

8:45

at the beginning of this book, She

8:48

works in a newsroom. It

8:50

is 1967 where

8:54

homosexuals got fired for

8:56

being homosexuals. So

8:58

she gets up one morning and

9:01

her girlfriend breaks up with her

9:04

because like many main

9:06

characters, which I enjoy, Vera

9:09

Kelly, mostly. communicates

9:12

in grunts. and doesn't talk about

9:14

feelings and all, all the usual

9:16

failings of, of many main

9:18

characters. Yes,

9:19

So, is she a hard-boiled female?

9:22

She is a hard-boiled female. And,

9:24

but she's a hard for a female who is a,

9:26

news editor at the beginning of

9:28

the. Of the book. So

9:31

her girlfriend breaks up with her. And

9:34

then, later in the day, when she gets

9:36

a break, she calls the girlfriend asks

9:38

her to reconsider. And

9:41

someone at the switchboard is

9:43

listening in realizes

9:45

that she's a lesbian and

9:48

within about a half hour, she gets fired.

9:52

Yeah. So this is pretty much the worst

9:54

day of her life. I mean, she'd used

9:56

her savings to buy this house and it requires

9:58

a lot of repairs. So here she is,

10:01

with, uh, responsibilities of a house,

10:03

no girlfriend, no job.

10:07

I got to say, I just, I get overwhelmed

10:09

by just how bad this is. So

10:12

You mean by bad? Her life is

10:14

yes,

10:15

Okay. I'm going to clarify you. Weren't talking about

10:17

the book.

10:18

No, no, I would not recommend it

10:20

if it was a bad book, Brad. Okay.

10:24

It's how bad the life is. I mean, it just kind

10:26

of, uh, yeah, of

10:29

course then, you know, she trades up for

10:31

a life of danger, so she, she, was

10:33

in a life of danger and now

10:36

she's going to trade up for a life. Again, she decides

10:38

that she's going to become a private investigator

10:42

and she opens up a.

10:44

Agency puts an ad in the paper.

10:47

people call and thinks she's a secretary,

10:50

which you know, happened

10:52

in 1967. But you know, when I started

10:55

work as a lawyer in late eighties,

10:58

there were people when I would make a phone

11:00

call, they would assume I was the secretary

11:02

and not the lawyer calling. so

11:05

that prejudice, was, continued

11:08

for many years. But I digress.

11:11

Okay. So she starts this agency.

11:14

She gets a couple of cheating

11:16

spouses and then

11:19

two people come in. They

11:21

are Dominican Republic refugees.

11:24

This is about the time of the Dominican

11:26

Republic revolution. Which,

11:29

you know, in my, my, uh,

11:32

lack of historical knowledge I had not

11:34

realized happened. It sounded like it was

11:36

a lot like the Cuban revolution,

11:39

one strong arm, dictator left, and another

11:41

strong arm dictator came in. they

11:44

are very

11:46

wealthy traveling, but they have

11:48

a niece and nephew who

11:51

got stuck in the country. and

11:53

are in jail and they can't find

11:56

the news of the grand

11:58

nephew, the son of these two people

12:00

in jail. He was sent here to

12:02

New York to live. And,

12:05

he was a retired

12:07

servant of the family and

12:09

that when that retired servant died,

12:11

he disappeared. So

12:14

they've hired her to look for her, for,

12:16

to look for him. The nephew. So

12:19

this search takes her to

12:22

a boys reform school where

12:24

she goes undercover as a staff

12:26

member. And then eventually

12:29

it takes her down to the Dominican Republic

12:32

where she runs into a,

12:34

a gay male reporter who

12:36

was also doing his own investigation

12:39

into, um, The secret

12:41

police, which were supposedly disbanded

12:43

after the reservoir revolution, but we're

12:46

still operating in secret.

12:48

So they weren't, they were a

12:50

poorly kept secret before and now they're more

12:52

of a well kept secret. So

12:54

as she's, you know, ducking weaving

12:57

secret police, she finds

12:59

that she can't trust anybody along the

13:01

way. Some people you think

13:03

that are suspicious, turn out to be friends

13:05

and some people you turn out to be friends or suspicious.

13:09

And the whole thing is remarkable.

13:12

it gets a thrilling recommendation for me, Brad.

13:15

Really does sound remarkable.

13:17

Yes. Yeah. It's very tightly

13:19

written. and her

13:21

descriptions of both the New

13:24

York and the Dominican Republic are poetic.

13:27

New York seems like a, the city

13:29

of lights rather than, you know, the gritty,

13:32

the gritty background, too many

13:34

detective novels and,

13:37

Vera is compelling

13:40

and intelligent.

13:43

and has her wits about her. the

13:46

supporting characters are just

13:48

that supporting characters. We really get

13:51

sucked into Vera's life is

13:53

as if, you're seeing the world through her eyes.

13:56

So they're not cardboard characters. They're just not much

13:58

focused on them.

13:59

That's right. That's right. These

14:01

are people that she doesn't know. well.

14:04

And so you don't know well.

14:06

Fair enough. Yep. And

14:08

who, who wrote the book?

14:10

The book was written by Rosalie

14:12

Knecht It's K N

14:14

E C H T.

14:18

and there'll be in the show notes.

14:20

It will be in the show notes. And

14:22

it's terrific.

14:24

And do you have anything from ReQueered Tales this week?

14:26

Well, we do, uh, next week,

14:29

we're coming out with a, another

14:31

female novelists, Nikki Baker.

14:34

This is the third book in her series.

14:37

Now the Virginia Kelly mysteries, lives

14:39

in Chicago and she's gone back to her hometown

14:42

for her 10th year anniversary

14:45

her high school reunion.

14:46

So another Nikki Baker book.

14:49

You know, the Nicki Baker book. This is the one coming

14:51

out. It's it's, it's almost that I know I've been

14:53

promising the forward by Cheryl Head, but

14:55

really it's almost here next week.

14:58

Oh, so it's the one we've been talking about.

15:00

So one we've been talking about, I

15:02

know you've just been waiting.

15:04

Yes, I have been. I haven't been,

15:07

so my guest today is PJ Vernon. And

15:09

I don't know if you've seen, there's been a lot of attention

15:12

about his latest book Bath Haus. So

15:15

we discussed that quite a bit

15:18

Yeah. Uh, I'll be interesting

15:20

to see what, you know, what

15:22

he has to say about Bath Haus to see, if

15:25

it's a different take than your take on a bath

15:27

house or not.

15:28

I will tell you I've read the book and

15:30

it's a much different take. On

15:33

mine, it's much different. It's

15:35

actually a thriller, first of all, not a mystery.

15:38

And, but we get into

15:40

how do you research a bath house.

15:46

okay.

15:47

So that gets a little interesting.

15:48

Yeah, it sounds good.

15:51

All right, well, see you next week.

15:53

We'll see you then Brad.

16:56

Welcome to Queer Writers of Crime, PJ.

16:59

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

17:02

I want to tell you, as I was reading your novel,

17:05

I kept thinking something. I kept thinking, he's

17:07

getting this wrong. He's getting this

17:09

wrong. And I'm going to

17:11

tell you that I'm going to make you wait. To

17:14

find out what that is after I do your

17:16

introduction.

17:17

Suspense. I love it.

17:18

Exactly. PJ

17:20

Vernon was born in South Carolina called

17:23

a rising star thriller writer by

17:26

Library Journal. Vernon's debut,

17:28

When You Find Me was both an

17:30

Audible Plus Number One listen.And

17:33

an Associated Press, Top 10

17:35

Us Audio Book, his

17:38

next novel Bath Haus praised

17:40

as a nightmarish white knuckler by

17:43

O the Oprah magazine and

17:45

pitched as Gone Girl with

17:47

gays and Grindr publishes

17:50

June 15th from Doubleday.

17:52

And it's currently available to pre-order. He

17:54

lives in Calgary with his husband and

17:56

two wily dogs. So

17:59

are you ready to hear? What I thought you were doing wrong?

18:01

I am so ready.

18:03

Okay. I don't know what possessed

18:05

me, whatever reason I thought

18:07

I was reading a mystery.

18:10

Now, all your blurbs say it's

18:12

a thriller. Even the title

18:15

on your book says Bath

18:17

Haus: A Thriller, but

18:20

for whatever reason I had in my head,

18:22

I was reading the mystery and

18:25

there's a. I hate rules,

18:27

but there's a rule in mysteries

18:29

that the person has to die by the fifth

18:31

chapter. And yes, it can be broken,

18:34

but I kept reading and kept reading

18:36

them. And I was engrossed, totally engrossed.

18:39

I kept saying, when

18:41

is, when is the murder going to happen? Ooh,

18:45

he's going awfully deep in the, into

18:47

the story and there's no murder I'm

18:49

not giving anybody any spoilers, because I'm not

18:51

going to say whether a murder happens or not

18:53

in the story, but

18:56

it sure didn't happen when I thought

18:58

it was going to happen or nothing happened when I thought

19:00

it was going to happen regarding the murder. Despite

19:03

that it's a wonderful

19:05

thriller.

19:06

I appreciate that so much.

19:09

Now When You Find Me was also

19:11

a thriller or a suspense novel as

19:14

this one is why thrillers?

19:18

I think thrillers. So it's, it's interesting.

19:20

I sort of, I actually didn't know that's what

19:22

I would, what I would wind up writing when I

19:24

started taking myself seriously as a writer.

19:27

I actually thought I was going to be writing

19:29

a, a high fantasy game

19:31

of Thrones style. and I've got that manuscript

19:34

in a closet somewhere. It's it's 200,000

19:36

words in eight points of view.

19:38

It is, I think writing is so

19:40

subjective. I'm going to go out on

19:42

a limb and say it's objectives, not a great read.

19:45

Um, but, but I noticed I

19:47

was sort of, I was sort of not

19:50

interested in the parts of you as

19:52

a reader of high fantasy. As well,

19:54

um, that, that I love

19:56

the cast of thousands and the geopolitics

19:58

and all the sorts of expectations. I bring to

20:01

a story like that as a reader. and I

20:03

found I was much more drawn to

20:05

the family dynamics, the

20:07

dynamics between relationships and toxicity

20:10

and manipulation and those sorts of things.

20:12

Um, and so I sort of experimented my way.

20:15

into a genre that I've always enjoyed, but

20:17

didn't quite know I could, I could hit my stride.

20:20

I love it. Cause it's voyeurism. When I go

20:22

for walks at night, um, I

20:24

will freely admit to looking in, you

20:26

know, lit living rooms and things when you're,

20:29

um, walking down It's whether it's, you know, Oh, how

20:31

did they decorate, you know, their house?

20:33

Or are they fighting or what have

20:35

you. So there's that part, That itch that it scratches And then uh, that scratch

20:38

that, that. Scratch itch that it scratches.

20:40

on the flip side, there's the, relate-ability

20:43

the, the, it could happen to me,

20:45

um, aspect and, um, you

20:47

know, as a very anxious person in real

20:49

life, I don't know, there's something about, thrillers that's cathartic

20:51

to read T uh, thrillers, that's, that's cathartic

20:54

to read, um, these things, hese horrible

20:56

things happening in a controlled environment. within

20:58

the confines of the story, uh, where I know

21:01

the author is taking me towards a conclusion

21:03

and I don't know, there's just something about

21:05

them I, I. It's

21:07

the greatest, you know, the second greatest love of my life

21:11

will be a thriller. I've got to respond

21:13

to a couple of things. You said my

21:16

husband has always saying you

21:18

are so damn nosy. And

21:21

my response is always, no, I'm not. I'm a writer.

21:23

I'm absorbing it all. I mean, yeah,

21:26

I'm nosy as hell, but as for

21:28

a good reason, Talking

21:30

about. the feeling like what

21:32

would the situation be like if you

21:34

were in it, has there been

21:36

a time when you've been writing

21:38

a particular scene and

21:41

you could feel it in your bones? This

21:44

is good. I got this

21:46

right. Uh, absolutely.

21:49

I, I, for me personally, um,

21:51

it's almost like a binary. If I

21:53

feel that. then I'm happy and

21:55

I, and I think I've got it right. I think I'm on the right track.

21:58

And I keep moving if I don't feel

22:00

that, I think, you know, I'm like,

22:02

well, I maybe have, okay. Taste.

22:04

Why is what I'm doing, not giving me that

22:06

feeling. I shelved the whole manuscript

22:08

in between, um, When You Find Me,

22:11

uh, and Bath Haus specifically

22:13

for that reason, I,

22:15

I don't know. I have to feel like I'm

22:17

in it because when I'm writing fiction,

22:20

I, you know, whatever, for whatever

22:22

reason that you write, uh, whether it's for yourself

22:24

or for other people, they're all completely amazing

22:27

and justified reasons for doing it. I do it for other

22:29

people. Um, and so.

22:32

If I, myself, aren't getting, if

22:34

I'm not getting that feeling while I'm writing, then

22:36

I start to think, well, am I going to be

22:39

delivering this entertainment, you

22:41

know, for a reader? Why, why not? So

22:43

I kind of have, have to feel that

22:45

feeling or the scene needs to be changed

22:48

for me.

22:50

I love that feeling when you can feel your palms

22:53

sweating or when you laugh out loud. When

22:55

I laugh out loud, I know I did it right. One

22:57

day. I just couldn't stop giggling. I don't think anybody else thought

22:59

the line was as funny as I did, but I giggled for

23:02

days. So

23:04

I kept it in there. So

23:06

let's get to Bath Haus. Tell us the story.

23:10

So, uh, the story. So I know the,

23:12

the, the pitch, uh, you know, Gone Girl

23:14

with gays and Grindr, or, or Gillian

23:16

Flynn with gays and Grindr. Right. I, uh,

23:18

Gillian Flynn is a very influential

23:20

voice. for me, in terms of, I

23:22

read, I would read a cereal box, um,

23:25

if Gillian Flynn wrote it and I would study it

23:27

and learn from it and try to take the pieces

23:29

that I could. Um, but at the end of the day, it's

23:31

a story about. one person, Oliver

23:33

Park, who is, and every

23:35

day he's he's, I

23:37

think to me, incredibly relatable,

23:40

um, and makes all kinds

23:42

of mistakes as we all do, and

23:45

behaves in ways and tries to navigate

23:47

himself out of mistakes, in ways

23:49

that we all do. Um, and

23:52

he's, it's a story about someone

23:54

who, is figuring out. I

23:56

think who they are, um,

23:59

on the inside. And I, and I mean that

24:01

beyond just sort of the, the

24:04

soundbite of, uh, do you know who you are? Because

24:06

I I've discovered, thus far in my life

24:08

and hopefully have, have quite a bit more

24:11

of that, you know, to, to live,

24:13

that I'm, I never really

24:16

know who I am evolves

24:18

right. From, from one phase of life to

24:20

another, um, depending on all sorts of situations.

24:23

And so. It's a story about

24:25

someone trying to survive someone who,

24:28

is always trying to do the best they

24:30

can with what they have in front of them. Um,

24:33

and it's, it's a story about, people

24:35

who take advantage

24:37

of, of that people who, um,

24:41

uh, manipulate or control or,

24:43

or kind of are drawn to folks

24:45

who don't quite know who they are when you don't know

24:47

who you are. It's easy for other

24:49

people to come into your life and tell you, who,

24:51

who that should be. And more often

24:54

than not, it seems like you find out the hard

24:56

way that that's not at all who you are,

24:59

if that makes any sense.

25:00

Makes total sense.

25:01

Rambling.

25:03

No. Yeah. One thing I found interesting

25:05

is it's obviously Oliver's story,

25:08

and most of the story is told through

25:10

Oliver's point of view. But some

25:12

chapters you switched over to

25:15

his partner, Nate, in

25:17

his point of view, why did

25:19

you feel that was necessary?

25:21

It's interesting. I'll be, I'll be completely

25:23

candid about it. So the original manuscript

25:26

that I finished, uh,

25:28

quote unquote, uh, and sent out,

25:30

um, actually did not have that

25:32

point of view in it whatsoever. It was

25:35

exclusively Oliver navigating

25:37

the story, um, and my

25:39

editor who, Rob Blume, at Doubleday

25:41

who's, who's incredible. Uh, saw

25:44

it and, and love loved the book

25:46

so much and took, he, he called

25:48

me and he used this

25:50

metaphor, which really resonated. He said, you have

25:52

written something incredible. It is the bones.

25:55

It is, you know, the lungs, the heart,

25:57

the organs everything's there, but

26:00

I, I, we could do more.

26:02

We could push it, we could have the sinew, the muscle,

26:04

the nuances, all of those different things. And

26:07

then he sorta, you know, we went through all of that

26:09

and, you know, You.

26:11

And he invited me to, to revise

26:14

and resubmit it. and while I was

26:16

thinking through it and

26:18

what I was going to do, I'm like, maybe

26:20

that's, that's, what's missing because

26:23

you know, every character,

26:26

um, in any book should

26:29

be, so fleshed out. So

26:31

three-dimensional so real, but certainly

26:33

certainly such an important character.

26:35

And when I wrote

26:38

Nathan's scenes. And when I put

26:40

myself in Nathan shoes, when

26:42

I was listening to music, like Nathan would listen

26:44

to music and try to try to think how

26:46

he would think the

26:49

story became so much less,

26:52

um, of. Characatures

26:54

are relying on sort of tropes that

26:57

I have consume for entertainment as a kid.

26:59

And I certainly don't want to, I don't want to spoil anything.

27:02

but there was just, it became so much

27:04

deeper because what, what was at stake?

27:06

It was no longer just Oliver.

27:09

It was Oliver and Nathan, then Nathan and

27:11

another human being who has something incredible

27:13

to lose in this story. Who's been betrayed

27:15

who has a lot of hurt and a lot of pain in

27:18

a different bank. And when, when

27:20

his voice. It's all of a sudden popped

27:23

up on the page, then

27:25

it, it, it changed so much about just

27:27

that the momentum for me,

27:29

that the book had. I'm so

27:32

thankful that I was able to include it. And

27:34

by the way, just to, to go

27:36

back to what we were talking about earlier

27:38

in that manuscript, I shelved, uh,

27:40

in between a lot of

27:42

Nathan, uh, came from that,

27:44

which was, which was really cool, too.

27:47

I hope I'm not giving too much way. I

27:49

don't think I am because this is all pretty

27:51

much in the beginning. Oliver

27:54

is cruising online, checking

27:57

out guys. He goes to

27:59

a bath house. This is all without Nathan's

28:02

knowledge. So basically he's

28:04

in the process of cheating. I

28:07

like Oliver, I do

28:09

like Oliver, but did you feel

28:11

like you were taking a risk that people

28:13

would find that so offensive, they would dislike

28:15

him?

28:17

Um, I think everything's a

28:19

risk. Uh, certainly because people won't

28:21

like, uh, you know, there'll be folks

28:23

that don't like, any particular thing that you do,

28:25

but it's a very real

28:27

thing. and, and certainly, uh,

28:30

you know, from a. theoretical standpoint,

28:32

you know, depending on, um, what kind of,

28:34

relationship that any, any person

28:37

or any reader, uh, finds themselves,

28:39

find themselves in. Um,

28:42

terribly unsympathetic, which

28:44

is why I also, was

28:47

really eager to sort of set up a story

28:49

where people are like, Oh my gosh, this guy

28:51

is cheating on, his partner,

28:54

what the hell is wrong with him, but then

28:56

just a few pages later, you know, he's almost

28:58

killed for it. So then all of a sudden readers

29:00

have to, they're confronted with this question

29:03

of, you know, yes, he's. cheating.

29:06

but lots of people do that. Uh,

29:08

and do, does he deserve to die for,

29:10

uh, for that? and that's a question

29:13

that they'll have to wrestle with and navigate the plot and figure

29:15

out. Um, but we

29:17

all do unsympathetic

29:19

things and sympathetic things and we all make mistakes

29:22

and we all do great things and not so great things. And, um,

29:24

it's very real to me to open it. That's

29:27

the story in a moment of vulnerability

29:30

from both Nathan and Oliver's perspective.

29:33

Do you think the story would have

29:35

been different from a reader's perspective,

29:38

perhaps if Oliver had

29:40

succeeded and actually did have sex?

29:45

Um, you know, I think, I

29:48

think that's a, that's a fab. That's a great

29:50

question. Uh, I,

29:52

I wanted it, my gut says probably,

29:55

um, because, you know, We

29:58

we tell human beings, tell stories

30:01

to make sense of the world around them and to either

30:03

validate what they believe or learn something new

30:05

or what have you. And I feel like

30:07

if there had been some sort of payoff on that

30:10

front, for the character then

30:12

than maybe people might have made judgment

30:14

calls inside, you know, ranging from while

30:16

he died, doing what he loved

30:19

to, you know, all the way to like, well,

30:21

that's what happens, you know, if you don't wear a seatbelt

30:23

and you get in the car and you, and you die in a

30:25

car accident that you went to Darwin award, good

30:28

for you. You know? So I

30:30

I've never considered that, but I think

30:32

people would view it differently.

30:35

To me it comes to the question is if

30:37

you don't. Do it, is it really cheating?

30:40

Oh, that's why I'm loving

30:43

this. I think, I mean,

30:45

it depends on it's like expectations and

30:47

the sort of it's, it's the sort of a

30:49

relationship that you find yourself in. I

30:51

think it's very clear, um,

30:53

from the opening page and

30:56

how Oliver and Nathan's relationship

30:58

works, that it's a very.

31:03

Almost there's an almost desperation to

31:05

it that they want to adhere

31:08

to this. What, what

31:10

a relation, what they've been told a relationship looks

31:12

like, and they think comes from this, um, you

31:14

know, moneyed family, That, uh,

31:16

you know, filled with extensively

31:18

horrible people. and you

31:21

know, but it's, it's this whole idea of like, I

31:23

want to be like them. I want to be like

31:25

my mom and my, my dad and they've

31:27

got, you know, a family and this is the rules and

31:29

this is the, uh, Puritanical

31:32

patriarchal. However you want to describe it.

31:35

Um, uh, definition

31:37

of, of what a relationship looks like. So

31:39

I want that, and I'm sure,

31:41

that Oliver knew that, and

31:43

I'm sure that he knew, that

31:45

if Nathan. even saw

31:47

him, you know, downloading a hookup app

31:50

or Googling, uh,

31:52

S where a bath house might be, then he

31:54

would consider that cheating. And I think the,

31:56

the sort of bigger picture thing is

31:58

then, you know, if, if you're in a

32:00

relationship and someone, you know, and you both

32:02

agree to certain terms, and one

32:05

of you breaks those, then, that's

32:08

technically cheating. It's a separate question of

32:10

whether or not that that was the right sort

32:12

of, system to sign up for, I guess,

32:15

Well, I'm going to ask something of my listeners

32:18

and I want everyone to go

32:20

to the website, Queer Writers of Crime

32:22

dot com. And there's a little

32:24

microphone that you can click on. And

32:26

it's your choice whether to leave your name when

32:29

they are, but I would like to know

32:31

if you don't go through with it, is

32:34

it cheating. Leave a message.

32:36

It'd be great to hear what your thoughts are.

32:40

So excited to read them,

32:42

Let's hope they do. Please do.

32:45

Please. Do

32:48

I want to, I'm going to touch a touchy

32:50

subject for myself here. one

32:53

of the reasons I relate to Oliver, I

32:55

don't know what your age is, but you're much younger

32:57

than I am. And I like

32:59

to think back to the days when I walked

33:01

into a bar or I walked into

33:04

a bath house or just

33:06

happened to be walking down the street in West

33:08

Hollywood and

33:10

not only connected eyes with

33:12

someone, but I knew

33:14

within five seconds I

33:17

was going to get laid. And I

33:20

was telling my husband about this. I said,

33:22

you know, I have no desire to cheat. I'm

33:25

totally committed to you, but

33:27

I miss that intoxicating

33:29

feel when somebody

33:32

is, objectifying,

33:34

you there's a thrill to that. And

33:38

in that way, I found Oliver very

33:40

intriguing. I

33:43

don't like to ask how, where do your characters come from,

33:45

but in this sense that I'm going to ask you, where did that

33:47

character come from?

33:49

Yeah. I mean, you, you get that thrill

33:51

the same way that I get that thrill, uh, in

33:53

the same way, other human beings get that

33:55

thrill because I feel like there's, you know, a billion years

33:57

of evolution, in our DNA

33:59

and, and there's a, there's a very good, um,

34:02

reason, reason for it. just

34:04

from a, again, an evolutionary standpoint.

34:07

and so to not to

34:10

pretend that that's not important,

34:12

Um, and you know, I, I don't know what

34:14

the statistic is, but, uh, about

34:16

how many times every human being thinks about

34:18

sex every single day. but it is an

34:21

enormous amount. So it, to me

34:24

when I'm writing a thriller, and I'm trying

34:26

to present these characters, um,

34:28

in a way that readers can hopefully

34:30

just slip right into, like, why

34:32

the hell would, would I not. Um,

34:35

you know, have, have sex be, be

34:37

such an important part of it. and then

34:39

I think separately, I don't, I

34:41

don't know if this is necessarily part

34:43

of the question. but when,

34:47

I came from a very

34:49

conservative community, a very

34:52

conservative, a very traditional Christian community

34:54

in South Carolina, went to a Christian

34:56

private school where. Um,

34:58

you know, if, uh, if you

35:00

know, a young woman is

35:02

pregnant, then instead of helping that person in

35:04

there, you know, in a very tumultuous, uncertain

35:07

time when, when they could really use some,

35:09

you know, someone, some love, they'd be

35:11

kicked out of school. Right. Um, and

35:13

so you're, I basically

35:15

always felt. Uh, that

35:17

I was transgressive that I was wrong, that

35:19

I didn't fit in whatever

35:21

I was told I was supposed to fit in.

35:24

And when that's sort

35:26

of the F formative perspectives

35:28

that I had, then why

35:31

would I not question

35:33

all the other rules that, you

35:36

know, that, that, that world

35:38

told me I should, you know, adhere to.

35:40

And so I just, you know, There

35:43

is nothing wrong with,

35:46

uh, with, with loving that feeling

35:48

or, you know, like it's

35:51

human, as much as folks try to say,

35:53

it's not, or it should not be. And, you know,

35:55

I spent my, I spent way too way too many years

35:57

in my life. Being super concerned about

36:00

what my internet browser history looked like and

36:02

what people might see all my internet browser history

36:04

that as soon as I didn't give a shit about

36:06

that anymore, then I was done

36:08

with it, um, and certainly done with it,

36:11

uh, in fiction as well. Uh, because

36:13

it's exhausting and it's not right to,

36:15

to make, you know, to make folks feel,

36:17

feel so ashamed for something like that.

36:20

Well, in my case, I don't know how big Calgary

36:22

is, but Los Angeles we

36:24

live kind of in suburbia. And

36:27

yes, obviously there's some gay

36:29

couples and single people in

36:31

our area, but it's quite a distance

36:33

to go to West Hollywood

36:36

or a gay bar or

36:38

where there's small clusters of gay community. Driving

36:41

from one part of LA to another part of LA

36:43

is almost like driving to another state.

36:46

So it would be a major

36:48

task for me to go to

36:50

a bar to see if, Ooh, Can

36:53

now that I'm older. Ooh, there's a daddy. He hot. And

36:55

it's not worth, it's not worth it to

36:57

me to go through that much trouble, but

37:00

there is always that. Hmm. I'm wondering,

37:02

I'll probably walk into a bar one day and see if it's

37:04

not so much in my mind that I'm going to drive across

37:07

town to do it. This

37:09

is your second novel. So

37:12

obviously you're not a full-time writer as of yet.

37:15

Do you have a day job?

37:17

I, I actually, uh,

37:20

did until very, very recently.

37:23

Um, I, so I

37:26

am in a past life. I was an immunologist

37:29

for, uh, uh, the defense department

37:31

working in combat casualty care. So that was my

37:33

day job. I was in a long distance

37:36

relationship with my husband, Barry, who,

37:38

is Canadian, for a couple of years.

37:40

And that's, that's why I'm here. I abandoned

37:43

gainful employment, uh, to,

37:45

to move up here and be with

37:47

him, um, and wa

37:49

and that gave me sort of the room to take myself seriously

37:52

as a writer. But at the same time, day

37:54

jobs are, are incredibly important.

37:57

and so I wound up, Seeing

38:00

that our local library here at Calgary

38:02

public library, it's, uh, the second largest,

38:04

uh, municipal library system in Canada

38:06

had a massive capital campaign

38:09

for our new central library, which is phenomenal

38:12

if you've, if you've not seen it or heard of it,

38:14

like we w. Once we're on the other

38:16

side of all, that's going on. We got to, and

38:18

you're up here, man, we've got it. You

38:20

got to see it. It's incredible but they

38:22

were looking for someone, um, from a fundraising

38:25

perspective and a funds development perspective.

38:27

And I've used to pay myself, uh, at

38:29

a grants that I would write. So I thought, you

38:32

know, I love books and I love people who love books. So

38:34

I think I can. Do I

38:36

can get money on behalf of such

38:38

a cool organization. And once

38:40

I was in there, I drank the Kool-Aid and started

38:42

to appreciate what libraries do outside of the scope

38:45

of what a lot of folks who don't necessarily

38:47

need libraries, appreciate them for. Um,

38:49

and so I did that. for, for a few

38:52

years and I still am

38:54

a volunteer fundraiser there

38:56

when my schedule and my usefulness, permit.

38:58

So, so that's, that's what I've done up

39:01

here in Canada. Uh, Calgary, Public Library

39:03

and Calgary Public Library Foundation are

39:05

just incredible organizations and,

39:07

uh, you know, love

39:10

getting, getting resources for

39:13

them and advocating for them. However I can.

39:15

Well, it sounds rewarding, especially for an author.

39:18

Definitely.

39:20

So given all that, that you're doing

39:22

and also writing, and

39:25

you mentioned to me earlier that you have ADHD,

39:28

how do you work life

39:30

balance? All

39:32

that,

39:34

um, T B D

39:37

so I, I didn't. Discover,

39:40

that I had ADHD until I came

39:42

up here and, uh, visited

39:45

a doctor, I, my entire

39:47

sort of adult life, young adult

39:49

to adult life, I've had anxiety

39:51

and panic attacks and all sorts of different

39:54

things like that. And I

39:56

had always gone to. To

39:58

seek help situationally, right? If something

40:00

very stressful is happening and I'm having

40:03

these, these issues, um, I

40:05

would go and I never, in a million years thought

40:07

that I, I had ADHD and nor would

40:09

I have, asked a doctor about

40:12

it. Um, but I was also living

40:14

on my own and people with ADHD,

40:17

at least me, and from

40:19

what I hear from therapists and folks

40:21

who, also have ADHD. it's

40:24

really hard to do things for

40:26

yourself to set balance, like you

40:28

said, for yourself and boundaries for yourself.

40:30

Um, because we

40:34

rely on. You know,

40:36

I rely on other people

40:38

sometimes to, and feedback

40:40

externally, you know, to know, is this

40:42

what I should be doing? I only file my taxes

40:45

or file, or do you know something that's difficult for

40:47

me because someone else tells me I should

40:49

do it. And it's very hard to do

40:51

it. but all of a

40:53

sudden I came up here and I've got my,

40:55

my husband, Barry. And

40:57

if I am having a panic attack alone in

40:59

an apartment in grad school, it only affects

41:01

me if I'm having a panic attack,

41:04

here. and I'm with the love of my

41:06

life. It affects someone else. If my depression

41:08

or anything that's going on with me is affecting

41:10

someone else. That's what catalyzes,

41:13

um, Oh, I'm hurting someone else.

41:15

Someone else has something at

41:17

stake here. I should go talk to someone and

41:19

see what's going on. And, and so, um,

41:23

In classical ADHD form.

41:25

I have totally forgotten what

41:27

the question was and went on about

41:29

how I arrived at

41:32

It was actually about life balance. And actually,

41:34

I think you answered it just fine.

41:37

I'm trying to, I've got a lot

41:39

of friends that are helping me out with how to say

41:41

no and things like that.

41:43

So I'm curious when you were diagnosed with

41:45

ADHD, was there a relief.

41:48

Oh, my God. Yeah, there was a huge

41:50

relief because, um, I had

41:52

been treating symptoms for so long and

41:55

I had, and you know, people love to say,

41:57

when someone has a degree and has lots of acronyms

41:59

after their name and you show up in their office

42:02

and they S and you say, I'm sad. And

42:04

they say, no, you're not, you're anxious. And this

42:06

is something you believe them. Um, and

42:08

that's not to say, you know, I

42:11

had any sort of malpractice, interactions

42:13

with, with physicians or whatever, but. I

42:16

believe them when I come in and say, I'm,

42:18

I'm having anxiety because

42:20

of X, Y, and Z. And they say, well, let's talk about

42:22

anxiety and how we'll treat that. Then I'm like,

42:24

Oh, that's what I have. And

42:26

then, I showed up in my, uh,

42:29

she, she retired right before the pandemic

42:33

happened, but my therapist who I love

42:35

Dr. Kathleen Atkinson, who retired here

42:37

in Calgary, um, I was in that

42:39

office because I finally

42:41

realized that there's an anxiety

42:44

portion. To it, but

42:46

there's also this part that I described

42:48

at the time as a manic. Hyper,

42:51

um, energetic state. It's

42:53

the reason why I'm able to write

42:55

a first draft of a novel, not a good one,

42:58

but a first draft of a novel very, very

43:00

quickly when I become hyper-focused

43:02

on it. And I get this sort of euphoric

43:04

search, um, when I'm doing

43:07

something like that, but I can't seem to do

43:09

to, to get anywhere else. And

43:11

I had this moment, I was like, Oh my gosh, what if

43:13

that's part of it too? Like, it's

43:15

not just, I'm anxious and can't do things and I'm

43:18

sad, but it's man, I also

43:20

have these moments of just, I

43:22

can do everything. So, you know,

43:24

as fast as possible and,

43:27

because of pop culture and not being, completely,

43:30

um, steeped in what things are,

43:32

I was like, that sounds like, you

43:34

know, uh, potentially bipolar. And

43:36

that's why I went to go see, um,

43:39

a doctor about it. And within five

43:41

seconds, She was like, can I

43:43

get you to stop really quickly? And I'm going to bring

43:45

you a questionnaire. And she, talked

43:48

me through it and I, and I had been able to

43:50

relate so many things in my life for so

43:52

long to what's happened. Um,

43:55

so for anyone listening, I would

43:57

just say, yeah, keep

44:00

going and keep talking to folks until

44:02

you get answers that make you feel that

44:04

way about whatever you might do, you know,

44:06

handling.

44:08

I was curious, I do have bipolar

44:11

disorder and it's

44:13

no exaggeration to say. The day I was

44:15

diagnosed is one of the best days of my

44:17

life because I looked back and I said,

44:20

Holy shit. It all makes sense

44:22

now. And there's

44:24

something I can do about it, you know,

44:26

because until then I just, why

44:29

am I this way? And

44:31

I had no idea why.

44:34

You punish yourself, you have no idea

44:36

what you're doing. Cause you can't label something. You can't

44:38

decide, you can't name it. You can't determine

44:40

what's going on. And because,

44:42

and so in that vacuum, it's just

44:45

like, I'm going to punish my it's not only, I don't

44:47

know what's going on, but I'm doing

44:49

wrong things. And I'm being told I'm doing wrong

44:51

things constantly. Uh, and so

44:53

when all the sudden someone says, Hey, actually

44:56

you're not. And this

44:58

is what's going on. Then you

45:00

reframe all that, all those cognitive

45:02

distortions reframed themselves

45:04

in a way that's like, Holy shit. Oh my God. You're

45:06

right. I'm actually, this is who I

45:08

am. And this is how, how I can navigate

45:11

the world. You know, it's, it's, it's, it's

45:13

a cool, amazing to

45:15

be able to, to find

45:17

out, why, why are the way you

45:19

are?

45:21

Well, you said it perfectly, it's giving

45:23

it, the name is what made a difference. Giving

45:25

it, the name. Back

45:28

to your book. And I'm going to kind of put you on the

45:30

spot here. LA used

45:32

to be known as bath house

45:34

city, one of the big cities for bath houses.

45:37

And I think we're down to three.

45:41

They keep closing. I think it's down to three though.

45:44

I looked in Calgary and

45:46

it looks like you only have one called Goliath

45:49

and I'm curious. This

45:51

is really putting you on the spot. How much

45:53

research was involved in writing

45:56

your novel?

45:57

I, I, Hey, I

45:59

knew the title of your book. This isn't putting

46:02

me on the spot. Like I absolutely

46:04

knew it was coming. So, um, what,

46:07

so what I did to research my book,

46:09

uh, in that regard was, um, I always

46:12

call it like the year 2013,

46:14

um, which isn't necessarily

46:16

encapsulates everything, but, There

46:19

was a year when I got out

46:21

of, so we had talked about

46:23

where I came from and all that

46:25

sort of baggage that I brought with me. And so I went to

46:28

grad school in Pittsburgh and, you know,

46:30

was in a relationship for the first time along

46:32

just, I was very eager to be in a relationship

46:35

like I was told I couldn't be in, you

46:37

know, for, um, uh, my

46:39

entire life. And then, you know, because

46:41

I was also young and didn't quite know, uh,

46:44

what. I wanted,

46:46

because I, for the first time I, you know, I didn't get to

46:48

experiment my way in high school. Like other

46:50

other folks did necessarily, I

46:53

found myself in a relationship that, you know, wasn't

46:55

quite, uh, a good fit

46:57

for me. And on the heels

46:59

of that, I all of a sudden,

47:02

you know, as, as someone with

47:04

an diagnosed ADHD

47:06

at that point might have to, doesn't

47:08

get that dopamine rush from their own neuro

47:11

wiring necessarily was like,

47:13

well, now I'm gonna find out.

47:16

Um, and so I did a lot of, a lot

47:18

of research within the, within that

47:20

timeframe. Uh, whether, you

47:23

know, that was what I was like. On Grindr

47:25

and all those other apps that, you know, winding

47:29

up in all of these situations, get a good trouble

47:31

laughing about them at the time, but

47:33

doing the things that I didn't get the chance to do that other

47:35

folks get to do, um, when they're younger.

47:37

And of course that includes like,

47:40

I'm like, there's something called a bath house

47:42

where you just like go in and,

47:44

and figure it out on the

47:46

way I'm going to find out what

47:48

that's about. Um, and

47:50

then take. Creative liberties

47:53

and you know, like later in

47:55

life and write a book about it. But, uh, but

47:57

yeah, that I, I knew I

47:59

had the research to all that stuff down before

48:01

I became an author or knew I wanted

48:03

to be one.

48:05

I was married to a woman at one time. and

48:07

after we divorced, my therapist

48:10

said, don't be like

48:12

a lot of married men who come

48:14

out. They act

48:16

like a kid in the candy store. Well,

48:19

you know what? I acted like a kid

48:21

in a candy store and I was wild. So

48:24

I will tell you that the opening,

48:27

if it's just the first chapter may go into the

48:29

second chapter, you captured

48:32

that gritty

48:35

yet exciting feel. So

48:37

well that if nobody's ever

48:39

been in that kind of environment, they

48:42

will feel it

48:44

I appreciate it. I did my

48:46

work. I did my research for that. I

48:49

was, everything smells like cleaner in here.

48:51

Why

48:55

I know most writers have other than

48:57

writing something else. They're passionate about. What

49:00

are yours?

49:01

I am passionate about, uh,

49:04

cooking. I'm passionate about being

49:06

outside. Um, I'm passionate

49:09

about. It

49:11

like weird, like weird things.

49:13

Um, you know, my,

49:16

I just went on a random road trip

49:18

because, you know, we can't do much these days

49:20

and, uh, to get out of the house and, um,

49:23

you know, up here in Calgary, we're in the foothills

49:25

of the Rocky mountains to our West, but to

49:27

our East is just canola fields and flatness.

49:29

And, there are like dust devils

49:32

that we saw because it was windy and dry. And

49:34

I was like, I've never seen a dust devil before.

49:36

And then like for the whole. Three

49:38

hour drive there in back.

49:40

I'm just fixated on like, is that a dust

49:42

devil? Can you see another one? Is that

49:45

that's one hurry, pull over. We have to take, uh,

49:47

like my passions. I don't know.

49:49

It's. Weird

49:52

things like that. Um, UFO's

49:55

the whole story that I don't know if you had seen

49:57

it a few weeks ago that, uh,

49:59

the Pentagon confirmed some UFO's, uh,

50:02

these pyramid shapes over some sort of, um,

50:04

uh, strike carrier, strike group out

50:07

off the coast of, uh, near, near in your neck

50:09

of the woods. and like, so now I'm just

50:11

like, that's my passion. Like I'm like researching

50:14

it and looking at all the tweets and all those sorts of things.

50:16

so, you know, I, I don't know. I. My

50:19

passion is sort of whatever, is

50:21

in front of me and grabs my, my interest

50:24

outside of, uh, writing

50:26

and outside of just wanting, um,

50:28

you know, a home

50:30

with a family that I

50:33

w my husband, our dogs

50:35

that I, that I love, and that love me.

50:37

And, and. I don't know

50:39

those are my passions. I, I should

50:41

say immunology as well, but I don't

50:43

want to, I don't want to lead the conversation there

50:46

specifically right now.

50:49

Well, given the beautiful area that you live in

50:51

and you like to be outside, do you do a lot of

50:53

hiking?

50:54

Yeah, I do a lot of hiking because I hate sports

50:56

and I'm not good at them. Um, and I

50:59

feel like, you know, it, sports are

51:01

something that people just generally

51:03

casually connect over so much.

51:05

And it's really hard to do that when

51:07

you're, when they require not

51:09

saying hiking does not require skill, but my

51:11

hiking does not require skill. So if I was

51:14

just, if you were like, let's play tennis

51:16

tonight. After I was like,

51:18

I love tennis. it would very quickly

51:20

become apparent that I don't, but

51:22

hiking, if I was like, let's go for a hike. We

51:24

could totally do that. Cause, cause I'm just,

51:27

hiking. I don't have to have it at least of

51:30

skill that I honed and

51:32

I love it. Love hiking. BAMF the,

51:34

the continental divide, this

51:36

East coast kid, like our

51:38

mountains have trees on the tops.

51:41

So I had never quite seen, um,

51:43

something, something like the Rockies

51:46

until I had moved here and loved

51:48

being out there.

51:50

Well, before we get to the end of the show,

51:53

I have what's called awkward questions. Authors

51:55

get, and what I'll do

51:57

is I'll spin the wheel and

52:00

you'll come up with a question. These are

52:02

random questions. I surveyed authors

52:05

to get. difficult or

52:07

bizarre questions they've actually received

52:09

in the past.

52:11

And I love it.

52:16

Alrighty. You ready for your question?

52:19

No, but I am going to answer

52:21

it.

52:25

Do you have talent or do you practice

52:29

or both?

52:30

Oh, okay. Yeah, no, I'm ready for this one. The

52:32

answer is, um, both because

52:34

I at least believe that talent is

52:37

not something people are born with. I think talent

52:39

is something that you learn. I think, I

52:42

wrote my way into being

52:44

a better writer than I was when I first

52:46

started. Um, and so

52:48

I, I totally don't buy into,

52:51

this idea that. That

52:54

I'm talented. I buy into this idea

52:56

that I, I wanted something and I was

52:58

passionate about it. And so I was willing to be

53:00

really, really bad at it.

53:03

Um, until I was not

53:06

as bad as I was before and

53:08

became good enough, for other folks

53:10

to, to read it and at least take something

53:12

away from it. So it's practice

53:15

it's practice, practice, practice, learnable.

53:19

Do you mostly read thriller novels?

53:22

I mostly read thriller

53:24

novels. That's the greatest

53:27

proportion of books that I read. Um, but

53:29

if we were going to talk about like exclusively

53:31

pleasure reading, um, it

53:34

would still be the biggest

53:36

bulk of, of what I read. but

53:38

not, not any by any stretch of the

53:40

imagination. Uh, exclusive, I

53:42

love, love, love, historical,

53:46

like narrative non-fiction. I love. Um,

53:49

specific segments of history, uh,

53:51

that I am constantly consuming

53:53

everything I can about. Also,

53:56

you know, books that I

53:59

biggest Dune fan ever.

54:01

Um, I love Dune. I love

54:03

everything that it's like a 700

54:06

page, the first one, 700 page. page

54:09

turner,. That's so deep with so

54:11

much. even though there's also all

54:13

kinds of problematic things that I find

54:16

when I read through it now, I'm like, Oh my God.

54:19

Oh my God. You know, as I go reading

54:21

through it again, but no, I it's,

54:23

uh, I want a good story.

54:25

And the second I'm hooked by something, um,

54:28

I'm, I'm down and it doesn't matter

54:30

or what genre it is or

54:32

what prep tents or perspective

54:35

or POV or age category, or if

54:37

it's even fiction.

54:39

Yeah. I can't remember if it was on the

54:41

air or I was talking to somebody specifically

54:43

last week. I said,

54:45

I don't like westerns. And

54:48

then I say, but that's not really true. I

54:50

like a good book. And in fact,

54:52

good book happens to be a Western. I'll

54:55

enjoy it. It's just not the one I'm likely

54:57

to pull off the shelf.

54:59

Yeah, absolutely. And I would even say when we talk about

55:01

like Queer cause like Queer thrillers

55:03

mysteries, or, you know, it's.

55:06

It's not like, you know, will folks

55:09

want to, relate to a

55:11

character like Oliver, just because they've, they

55:13

don't know like you and I knew what it's

55:15

like to go into an establishment like

55:18

that, or live that, and come from

55:20

necessarily that sort of background or that sort of

55:22

relationship dynamic or what have you it's

55:24

that's not even the question. Like, will they want

55:26

to read it? It's just like, well, if it's good,

55:28

maybe some of them will, and

55:32

that's pretty cool.

55:34

Yeah, something that's interesting. I

55:36

read almost exclusively

55:38

queer novels, almost exclusively

55:41

and through Sisters In Crime.

55:44

I can't remember how I won it. Recent

55:46

sent a book that I

55:48

had won a mystery novel, and

55:51

it's from an author that I presumed to be straight

55:54

and I'm looking forward to it because now that I have

55:56

this book, I feel an obligation to

55:58

sign novel. I feel an obligation to read

56:00

it. And I'm really looking forward

56:02

to see it from a different perspective. And I think

56:04

it's important It's just really hard when

56:06

there's one that you particularly like to

56:08

force yourself to do that.

56:11

Yeah. And I should, I should also clarify too. I

56:13

mean, certainly I also, as we all do have

56:15

subjective tastes and there are some books I'm certainly

56:18

far less likely to pick up. Usually

56:20

my, if my husband Barry loves a book, that

56:22

would be one of them. Um, you can take

56:24

a look at our bookshelves and very quickly

56:26

decide who's books are to the

56:28

point where he's my toughest critic. And if he loves

56:30

something I wrote, I'm like, Oh shit.

56:35

Well, I want to thank you for your time. It's been

56:37

great conversation.

56:39

It's been so fabulous. Thank you.

56:41

And remind our listeners guest

56:43

is PJ Vernon. His

56:45

book is Bath Haus and the

56:47

house is spelled H A U S

56:50

It comes out on June 15, but before

56:52

you forget, go order it right now.

56:54

It's available on pre-order.

56:56

Thank you so much. And thank you so much for having

56:58

me. I am. So, as I said before, we went

57:00

live, this is the first Bath Haus pad

57:03

podcast, um, that I've ever done.

57:05

And I could not have been more

57:07

excited for it or to, to be more grateful

57:09

to you for giving me the opportunity. And I appreciate

57:11

it so much. Um, thank you.

57:14

I it's been, I've had a blast. I keep

57:16

talking, but I know we gotta

57:18

go.

57:19

Well, I feel honored it was the first, since that came out.

57:21

So thank you. I enjoyed it as well.

57:24

Thank you so much.