0:00

Questlove Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio.

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What's Up?

0:06

This is Sugar Steve from Questlove Supreme.

0:08

Anybody who knows this podcast is well aware

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Back in twenty twenty two, we sat down with la

0:23

Reid for what became a rare three part

0:25

interview. In part two of La Read's

0:27

comprehensive interview at Questlove Supreme, he recalls

0:30

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0:42

QLs.

0:45

This is a question that I tried to asking

0:47

Jimmy jam and I

0:49

still wasn't satisfied with the answer. Now,

0:52

I owned Eyes of a Stranger.

0:55

I mean, I've owned all your records. But when

0:58

Eyes of a Stranger came out, and

1:00

I always have this question, I will ask

1:02

you.

1:03

I will ask that s O s Ben.

1:04

I will ask boys to men, how

1:07

bold do you have to be in

1:11

order to start

1:13

your first three songs on the

1:15

album with ballads, especially

1:19

in this mind state where you're like, we got to grab

1:21

them by the collar right in

1:24

your mind, you were like, two Occasions

1:26

is so damn tef line, we

1:28

better open with this joint, Like, are you guys not

1:30

thinking?

1:31

I gotta look at the track list and if the.

1:33

First record the first records, let.

1:38

Me see some eyes.

1:40

With my eye, like literally.

1:44

And they back to back, that's interesting me.

1:47

And the thing is the way the way that I see

1:49

records and building records and like the drama and

1:52

the up and like two

1:54

Occasions to me was always either

1:56

the fourth song on side a wow,

2:00

the second song on side to y'all.

2:03

To me, it's almost like opening thriller

2:05

with human Nature.

2:08

I can't believe. I just this doesn't

2:10

make sense to.

2:10

Me, I think in

2:12

terms of albums, and

2:14

this also explains why you have way more hits

2:16

than I do.

2:18

Right, No, I

2:20

think that's a reseequence.

2:22

Man, Okay, you

2:24

have you have the actual vinyl or

2:27

cassette or something, because not

2:29

there, I don't expect you to have it there.

2:30

But I'm saying I

2:33

can't believe that.

2:34

I thought can You Dance?

2:35

Was the first song on the album.

2:36

Hang on second, I'm

2:38

now checking on the street.

2:41

Well on Apple Music it is

2:44

yeah, you' all right, it's one and two and

2:46

can you dance?

2:47

This is five?

2:48

Yeah, that's what came. Okay,

2:50

it's the record and.

2:53

Well, I mean obviously worked because

2:56

I think when anyone thinks of the

2:58

deal, it two occasions

3:01

and at that it's

3:03

right a rush. All right, all right, so this is

3:06

that wasn't even our first single.

3:07

Hold up, what was what was the person? Two

3:09

occasions?

3:10

Was?

3:11

Damn sure? It was to shoot him up?

3:12

No, no, hold I'm gonna tell you. Okay,

3:15

where's that album?

3:16

Where's that album? Is a stranger?

3:18

Okay? Why he's looking for it?

3:19

This reminds me, shit, man, you're right again.

3:22

Hold up now I'm on discouds looking

3:24

at it. It's straight up.

3:25

Yeah, well this is But listen,

3:27

and this really brings about full circle

3:30

because when I

3:33

don't know if you remember this conversation, like you the

3:36

day that Things Fall Apart came

3:38

out February twenty

3:40

third, nineteen ninety nine. The

3:43

next day I spoke to you because

3:45

you were telling me about like you know, you you were on the radio

3:47

and all that stuff and you

3:50

gave me a message from your mom, and

3:53

your mom said, why

3:55

would they bury that Erica Badu's song

3:58

at the end of Side too, Wow,

4:01

Yes, why do we have to sit

4:03

through that and time album to get

4:05

to it?

4:07

Which was kind of like my plans, like, okay.

4:09

Because that's the same I heard that already.

4:11

Yah, y'all heard that one.

4:12

Yeah, making them listening to it Okay.

4:14

Y'all would have never gotten through the rest of the record

4:17

to see who we were before we got you.

4:19

But you did the opposite of what LA did.

4:22

Wow. I know, but that's that's why he's

4:24

LA.

4:27

Stop now maybe

4:29

kind of.

4:29

Open when you got.

4:34

I swear I don't remember. I really don't

4:36

remember.

4:36

But the only logic that

4:39

I can come up with is

4:42

put the hits up front.

4:44

That's the only thing I can think of, is put the hits up front.

4:46

Right.

4:47

But we put out Yeah, we put

4:49

out can You Dance? And we thought we

4:51

kind of gotten it.

4:52

Right, Okay, we got it right? Now?

4:53

Now we got it.

4:54

This is better than this is better than material

4:56

things. Sonically, it's better. Got

4:58

a right engineer, Tom's

5:01

not over shadowing everything, you know,

5:04

And it didn't work at all. We got nowhere,

5:07

and then Dick Griffy came. And

5:09

this is what Dick stepped in. He

5:12

said, he says, comes to the studio,

5:15

play me all the records.

5:20

He's mean about it too, like that's like that I played

5:22

me all the records, like sick of you,

5:25

you know, because because by the way, I forgot to tell

5:27

you I picked another stiff, not

5:29

a stiff, but Babyfaces first

5:31

solo album was called Lovers and

5:34

I Love You, and I know I

5:36

picked you make Me Feel Brand New to cover that's

5:39

the same. And when

5:41

that came out before I Love You Baby yeah,

5:43

yeah, and I remember that and

5:46

it was cute, but that was me thinking

5:48

that that I didn't know, and Dick Griffy was

5:51

like you just

5:54

like you just think you know everything, don't you. I mean, that's

5:56

how we talked to me, Like let

5:58

me tell you them. This is my record company and

6:00

this is my studio and

6:02

we're doing that no more.

6:04

So he picked the

6:06

hits, all

6:08

the wrong songs I picked.

6:10

I picked You Made Me Feel brand New for Babyface,

6:13

and I picked can We Talk for the Deal?

6:15

Both Wrong comes Back

6:18

and picks two Occasions

6:20

and shoot him Up movie movies. He

6:23

gave me that song. Wow, he

6:26

gave me the song another guy.

6:27

It's the only time my band ever did a song that

6:29

we didn't write or co write. He gave me

6:31

that song and said, this might be good for

6:34

you. So Keny and I went and we produced

6:36

it. But did you like his song?

6:38

I did like it. I liked it, liked it, but my

6:40

band hated it.

6:41

Wait, which, what are we talking about? Movies?

6:43

Like the cover Shoot Them Up Movie?

6:45

Wait?

6:45

Who did the cover?

6:47

Did the cover Bobie Dick

6:49

from on No Limit Records? He he covered

6:52

Shoot Him Up Movies? And like nine Yeah,

6:58

the movie love wanted

7:01

to be.

7:01

Cleared by the way, we only did

7:03

We did it because Dick wouldn't make He wouldn't

7:05

let us have music videos.

7:07

He said we weren't pretty enough. So really,

7:10

so I figured.

7:10

If I due to occasion, I mean, I'm not too occasional,

7:13

we do shoot them Up movies, which is

7:15

a song he gave us.

7:17

Maybe we might get.

7:18

A music video.

7:20

Y'all have not done music videos.

7:22

We don't have no music videos.

7:24

Yeah, but everybody else

7:27

on the list, Charlama had the music videos

7:29

and.

7:30

The weirdest music videos of all time, right,

7:33

but we don't care videos.

7:35

We're so their videos were so off kilter,

7:37

man.

7:37

But y'all are so pretty. That's so odd.

7:40

All right, So here's the deal.

7:41

I'm gonna ask you a question as

7:44

a CEO about

7:46

your artist self and

7:48

hopefully because I think you're one of the first

7:50

major CEOs we had on

7:53

the show and I needed

7:55

explained to me, like I'm a twelve year old

7:58

okay, now, an

8:01

out of the box hit like two Occasions.

8:04

Now as a person

8:07

who has not had a

8:10

lifespan, and I'm talking about

8:12

myself as a singles artist,

8:16

you know. I mean, I've had many top ten albums,

8:18

you know whatever. I make my living on the road, but

8:20

as a singles artist, I'm not. I'm

8:23

led to believe that

8:26

hits are manufactured,

8:29

not in that sort of organic

8:33

way that we're led to believe

8:35

it is, where it's like you're

8:37

just suddenly singing and you

8:40

know, I like that two Occasion song by the Deal,

8:43

and then you called the radio station and you

8:45

request it and then it becomes a hit.

8:48

I'm led to believe, especially

8:50

now that deals

8:53

are already made. And I'm not asking

8:55

about the process of how deals get made,

8:58

but is two Occasions

9:01

a hit?

9:02

Because it just organically

9:05

spread that way or was

9:08

the solar muscle.

9:12

Again.

9:12

I'm not gonna give up until I get it Dick Griffy's

9:14

story behind.

9:16

It to make it a hit.

9:19

Okay, So what I

9:21

think poor?

9:23

Is it a meet you halfway thing? Give us a

9:25

song we could work with and then we'll

9:27

ram it.

9:28

I am shamelessly commercial.

9:30

Let me just put that out there, right, I'm you

9:32

and I are opposites in that regard, like I

9:34

am. I am like so singles

9:37

oriented like like, especially

9:39

like the first two songs I picked or

9:41

Stiff's, so I became like I'm gonna

9:43

get the singles thing down right.

9:45

So I before let me interrupt

9:47

you real quick, and I want to use

9:49

this opportunity to actually the spell a

9:51

myth. Okay, I am not

9:54

anti singles. I

9:56

actually no, no, I don't think anti

9:58

single anti and I

10:02

is good. I will freely

10:05

admit. I mean this might be captain

10:07

obvious to you know, Fonte, whatever is

10:10

I think for half the people that just pose

10:12

like a man, I ain't with that bubblegum pop shit.

10:15

It's I believe that pop songs.

10:17

Are the hardest things, right

10:19

right, You give me a free jazz

10:21

song, I'll knock that shit. It'll be on

10:24

the next Robert Glasper record, you

10:26

know instantly, But I

10:29

don't know, you know, And I think since

10:32

I've put in twenty thousand hours of DJing

10:35

hard DJing between the last Roots

10:37

album, yeah, now there's

10:39

like nine years of that, I'm

10:42

I'm hyper aware of what

10:44

songs work and don't work that I didn't have

10:47

in my first Now, I guess my job

10:50

is to not make it so.

10:54

You know, now that I know the secrets

10:57

or the codes.

10:57

Or whatever, to figure out how to nuance

10:59

by none and not just make it like

11:02

okay, now that I know we need hit singles,

11:04

like I know what our fan base expects

11:06

of us. However, I

11:10

just want to say that I'm

11:12

not anti pop because I

11:14

did.

11:15

I think it's you know, kid music.

11:18

I just never knew how to.

11:19

Do it right right.

11:21

I completely get that.

11:23

Listen I have This may

11:25

be a fair or unfair comparison,

11:27

but first version of Cooling

11:29

the Gang and then the pop version

11:31

Opion right they

11:34

made they made too Hot and all

11:36

those songs they were great, But I hated that

11:38

band like I loved the original. But

11:42

how do you feel now about looking back

11:44

as an executive looking back on it,

11:46

But that was me. That was me before

11:49

record companies, before anything. It

11:51

was just a preference. I'm like, y'all soft,

11:53

that's soft, Like, that's like what

11:56

is come on? What's Hollywood swinging?

11:58

And those crazy intros in the like

12:01

those are just songs. I didn't like it

12:03

at all. Right now, I understand

12:06

the difference. I still prefer

12:08

the first version of.

12:09

Cool in the gang.

12:10

So what I'm saying is you

12:13

and your band can't really afford

12:15

to do it. Man, if y'all really, if

12:17

y'all really did it, like what

12:20

happens is that you disappoint a

12:23

lifetime of fans, and no

12:25

matter how you feel about it, at

12:27

that point, maybe for the

12:29

first time, you're going to be really criticized

12:31

for trying to get hit.

12:33

So it's that is.

12:35

It will be the first time because but.

12:37

You're you're so successful at what you do

12:40

that that would be a mistake.

12:41

My opinion is that that would be a mistake, right unless

12:43

it will.

12:44

Completely organic, completely

12:46

like nothing changes except this

12:48

song just happened to catch, right, But because

12:51

if you give anything to to if

12:54

you look like you're trying, you can't do

12:56

that, Like you're you're you're a savior.

12:58

You could you can't do that.

13:00

I'm not doing that.

13:01

However, I am

13:04

so aware that, wow,

13:06

we never we've had grooves, but

13:08

we never had a melody line.

13:10

There's never a part of the song that you can whistle and

13:13

it sticks with you.

13:14

That's not true. And also, isn't there a gray

13:16

in there?

13:16

Isn't it a fact then that maybe y'all were just missing

13:19

an la ear when it comes to singles, because

13:21

for me, as the radio girl listened to all these

13:23

records that y'all put out, at times,

13:25

I just felt like y'all didn't hear the single,

13:27

y'all put out the wrong song, like what about

13:30

the gray?

13:30

And there As of this

13:32

conversation two days ago, I'm

13:36

talking right now.

13:37

From New Orleans.

13:38

We just did the Essence Festival and

13:40

for the first time we've played

13:43

with Little Kim,

13:46

and of course the subject of Lighters

13:48

Up comes up now. For those that don't

13:50

know, Little

13:53

Kim's Lighters Up song was a

13:55

root song.

13:58

That I don't know.

14:03

Love Supreme Hill answer Scott.

14:09

All I can say was, when Tarika and

14:11

I went to Florida, we made Lighters Up. We

14:15

took a three hour dinner

14:17

break by the way, having dinner

14:19

with O. J. Simpson, a bust of rhymes. Long

14:22

story, yeah,

14:24

long story, come back

14:26

to the studio, finish the music

14:29

of what you know is Lighters Up. Came

14:31

back, you know, pretty confident, like, hey, we're

14:33

gonna have a good first single for our Tipping Point

14:35

record. And next thing, I

14:37

know, like a month later, I

14:40

hear that song with Little Kim on it, and

14:42

I was just like, what the fuck?

14:44

Oh wow, Scott,

14:48

Well.

14:48

I mean, no, Scott obviously

14:50

gave it to Kim, but

14:53

oh, Scott stores.

14:56

You know original root.

14:58

Scott was the roots. Yes, yeah,

15:01

so.

15:02

Even then my whole point was that, and

15:05

you know, we joked about it, like, you know, this is our song

15:08

first or whatever.

15:09

She was

15:11

surprised.

15:12

She's like, she like, I heard you play

15:14

drums on it, but no, I if

15:17

you remember and do the right thing when

15:20

Samuel Jackson does the Senior Love

15:22

Daddy the all

15:24

thing, Yes, if you listen to that music

15:26

in the background, I was do the

15:28

right thing was on in the break room, and I remember

15:30

that. I was like, Hey, let me see if I can make a song without a

15:32

snare and just with high hats

15:35

and symbols. That's what

15:37

I was. Wow, that's what I was making.

15:39

Then Scott put piano on top of it, and it was like, all

15:41

right, this this could work. But my whole

15:43

point is that even

15:45

if we kept that song, I'm not even certain

15:50

that he would have done to that song

15:52

what she did to So

15:54

it's almost like, yes, it went with

15:56

this rightful owner. Again, we

15:59

don't have have a filter in us that knows

16:03

how to not flex our intellect, Like

16:05

Tarik has to be the smartest guy in the room, right

16:08

instead of the most relatable guy in the room lyrically,

16:11

And they're rich.

16:11

Ever, let anybody else help pick a single?

16:14

Rich was brilliant too, Yeah,

16:16

definitely, but.

16:17

Just got made it up to us by doing don't

16:20

say nothing.

16:20

But then that's when our fan base sort of clap back,

16:22

Like I thought, don't see

16:25

nothing with Quevla because I like the

16:27

fact that Treek was saying something nonsensible.

16:29

Here's my take on it. There's

16:32

two kinds of stars.

16:35

There's the artist and there's the song.

16:38

Right, songs can be stars, right,

16:41

and artists can be stars. And when

16:43

the two collide, you get

16:46

with in Houston, I don't know, right, you get you

16:48

know, the big whoever you might

16:50

like Michael Jackson, you know, but sometimes

16:53

the artist is the star, but

16:55

not necessarily the song. And sometimes the song

16:57

is a star, but not necessarily the artist.

17:00

Big facts, Right, That's

17:03

how I look So I separate those two,

17:06

right, turning the back.

17:11

That song is, yeah, that song

17:13

as a jail.

17:16

There's many of those, but there's also

17:19

there's also very very talented artist

17:21

Tory Amos.

17:22

You don't know if you listen a

17:24

hit.

17:24

Maker, but she's incredible, right,

17:27

and you know, and and there are others,

17:30

you know, But

17:32

so I separate the two.

17:33

That's how I That's how I look at it.

17:35

So do you think that the industry as

17:37

it is now makes space

17:40

for those kinds of artists? Do

17:42

you think there's a space for those artists to exist,

17:45

like on major labels where it's like, Okay, you may

17:47

not have the hit record or the TikTok song

17:49

that is going off, but you

17:51

just are an amazing artist, and

17:54

I think there's an audience for that.

17:56

You're not gonna like my answer.

17:58

I'm trouble and

18:00

I got a tag on top of Fante's

18:03

question.

18:06

My answer to that is not

18:08

if you no.

18:16

Hit that's

18:19

that's that's that's true.

18:20

If you if you got a hot garage band that don't

18:23

make his don't no problem.

18:24

We'll just put you on the road.

18:25

Just stay on the road un till you.

18:26

Get a hit, or you

18:28

better be the band that's on a label

18:31

that believes in that, which definitely

18:34

and literally, I don't

18:36

even know if I told people this. The only reason

18:38

why The Roots lasted that long is because

18:41

it was in our contract. If

18:44

you have album number one, we have to make three

18:46

albums. If you have album number four,

18:48

we have to make three albums. If

18:50

you have album number seven,

18:53

you have to make so we couldn't

18:55

get dropped. That was the only way

18:57

that we never got we would have gotten dropped. Otherwise,

19:00

Wait, I have to ask this because

19:03

I heard all right,

19:05

so post.

19:06

And I'm so jumping ahead in the future.

19:08

But since you brought it up, I

19:10

believe the story that was told to me was

19:14

back when I think this was

19:17

eighty not eighty, this was either

19:21

nineteen ninety nine or two thousand.

19:24

I believe you guys

19:28

signed an artist

19:30

named Stephanie

19:33

Jerreman Nada to the label.

19:37

Who that would have been probably

19:40

a little later than that, probably.

19:43

Six. Okay, all

19:45

right.

19:46

My whole point is that the

19:49

Fiona Apple incarnation of

19:51

Lady Gaga

19:54

was, to my knowledge,

19:57

on a deaf jam artist, or she was

19:59

signed to the label and.

20:01

Yep, I signed her.

20:03

Right, what do you see in that artist

20:06

that later morphed into what we know.

20:07

Now the day she came in.

20:10

She plays rock and roll piano, first of all,

20:12

and she's incredible at it.

20:15

And she came in and she had

20:17

on the white Go.

20:17

Go boots and and

20:20

she was like just

20:22

sducing the piano. I mean, you know, she gets

20:25

in it. She's inside the keys, right,

20:29

thank you?

20:29

Right.

20:30

I was to say that, but you know, Tori

20:33

Amos, that's what I saw in her prime

20:35

show.

20:36

Yeah, that's what I saw, and I

20:38

thought she was incredible,

20:40

and I remember saying to her that, and

20:43

she reminded me of this, because my memory is

20:45

not that good. She told me that in that room.

20:48

I told her that she would likely

20:50

change music. That's

20:52

how passionate I was. So we

20:54

signed her and then they started

20:57

to bring me demos. And when I heard

20:59

the demos, like, I didn't hear

21:01

that same thing that I saw, and

21:04

I didn't like it. And I had

21:06

Rihanna and Justin Bieber and Kanye

21:09

and the Dream and everybody, and I was feeling

21:11

myself way too damn much, right, note

21:14

to self, like, don't go feeling yourself, and

21:18

they were, and I was like, this is I don't want

21:20

to put this out, like this is not it, this is not

21:22

the girl I signed, this is not this

21:24

isn't moving me.

21:26

And I let her go

21:28

before we ever released the record.

21:31

And then she found Acon

21:34

Red One and ultimately Jimmy

21:36

Ivy and she put out Just

21:38

Dance and it

21:41

started blowing up in Canada.

21:42

I was watching it because I didn't want to be embarrassed.

21:47

I was like, that's just Canada. Then

21:49

I started seeing it blow up in Miami. That's

21:52

just Miami, that's just the

21:54

clubs. Then it started blowing up in

21:56

the Bay. Then

21:58

it charted man,

22:01

and then god god.

22:06

I was like, you stupid.

22:10

You feel like wow yo.

22:12

So okay, So question so in that situation

22:15

and your role as an executive, how much

22:18

of it is putting out

22:20

or putting out things that you like versus

22:23

a record may come to you and it's like, Okay, I personally

22:25

don't like this, but I know that

22:27

it will work with this audience, like how much of

22:29

it is like.

22:30

Your personal taste versus the market.

22:32

It's a little bit of both.

22:32

First of all, I will stand

22:35

even in that case I clearly

22:38

blew it. But for the most part, I'll stand by other

22:40

people that work at the label. If they say

22:43

they're passionate about something, I'll give it

22:45

a shot. It doesn't have to just be my thing, right,

22:48

But if it's something that I signed,

22:50

that I personally endorsed, then I want to feel

22:52

good about it. In those

22:55

cases, I'm kind of listening to me, right, But

22:58

I just blew it, Man, I just completely

23:00

blew it.

23:00

I have to appreciate. But here's the thing I appreciate

23:03

about this story. We've had three

23:06

artists on the show that told

23:08

us the story of where

23:10

it wasn't working out with their

23:13

label staff right. And

23:16

and instead of just being like, you know

23:18

what, you're right, let's

23:20

let's let's call it the other day

23:23

and let you go, I

23:25

learned that the

23:27

label will sometimes just

23:30

freezing artists out just to avoid

23:33

the embarrassment.

23:34

In case that happens, Yes.

23:37

For sure, people hold on. They

23:40

don't want to be wrong or they don't

23:42

want to make a decision. But

23:44

I don't respect that, like I'd rather like,

23:47

listen, I blew it, and I tell you I blew

23:49

it, and and while it while it,

23:51

it pains me and it's embarrassing.

23:54

I'd rather live in that truth than to.

23:56

Have shelved her and

23:58

just made her keep going back and going back and going

24:00

back when I knew I didn't like it.

24:02

I didn't like it.

24:03

It wasn't for me, right, So if

24:05

it's not for me, perhaps she could have a life

24:07

somewhere else. And I'm actually okay with that,

24:10

as embarrassing as it is.

24:11

How different was the music that she

24:14

presented to you, How different

24:16

was it than what she presented.

24:17

To the world.

24:18

It was very different because if you know

24:21

her, you know she's diverse and she could do many

24:23

things. And the kind of music she

24:25

made on the first album and a little bit on the second

24:27

album, she's never revisited that. So

24:29

she's clearly able to do a lot

24:31

of different kinds of music. And it

24:34

wasn't that was like

24:36

like dance pop or that's

24:38

what I called it, you know, So it wasn't ediom

24:41

yet or no, it

24:43

wasn't that flavor at all. It was kind of

24:45

piano based, a little

24:47

bit, jamming a little bit.

24:49

Yeah, but it just can they didn't

24:51

feel like it.

24:56

All right, we gotta get back at the time machine because I'm

24:58

not trying to coll.

25:03

Well.

25:04

I want to know what touring

25:07

with the Deal was like across the States

25:09

as opposed to just you guys

25:12

being in one environment as a club band.

25:15

Like your first, your first touring.

25:17

Oh my god, our first the first show we

25:19

had as the Deal with body

25:21

Talk as a hit, we opened

25:24

for the DeBarge and Luther

25:26

Vandros.

25:27

Oh that sounds familiar, life

25:30

changing moment.

25:30

Right.

25:31

First show is at

25:33

uh in Indianapolis at Market

25:35

Square Arena. So now

25:38

now we have a band that's gone from playing club

25:40

that could barely hold two hundred people to

25:43

Market Square Arena and we

25:45

hit that stage and we would open

25:47

the act. So we got a line check but

25:49

not a sound check. And

25:52

I like to use that as an excuse why

25:55

we were so bad.

25:56

But we were horrible.

25:59

I mean, were so horrible when we got off stage,

26:01

like we didn't even you know, we're supposed to

26:03

be excited.

26:04

That's our first show is.

26:05

In a big arena and a

26:07

major tour, and we should have been like

26:09

really happy and excited and slapping

26:12

each other five and and having

26:14

a celebratory moment.

26:16

But we were really embarrassed by

26:18

it.

26:18

Uh.

26:19

We didn't have we were not built

26:21

for that big stage. We didn't know what

26:23

we were getting into. And

26:25

and we overdid our We

26:28

overdid our our gimmick, too

26:31

much, makeup, too

26:34

much.

26:34

Everything for all the cities or

26:36

for certain cities.

26:37

No, this was just this one show.

26:41

So the show is over and

26:43

I'm in the hotel room. My road manager,

26:46

his name is Leon Burnett, wonderful

26:48

man. He comes,

26:51

Dick Griffy wants to talk to you. I'm

26:54

like, oh, and

26:57

I don't remember the conversation that well, but

26:59

I remember being a little bit frightened

27:02

and not threatened, but warned

27:05

if we come out like that again, we're

27:07

off the show. And I remember him saying

27:11

something about Sylvester, right,

27:14

like we don't want no more Sylvester's we don't

27:16

want to know something like that. Like it was something like

27:18

that. And anyway, we cleaned

27:20

up our act and the next night we were a lot better.

27:23

Right, But the first night, man, we blew it

27:25

so badly. It was just really

27:27

bad. And then we got

27:29

a little used to it. Luther

27:31

embraced us, El debarsed embraced

27:34

us, and we all kind of became friends.

27:36

And then they started, you know, we

27:39

got treated a little bit better, and

27:41

we got better and we had some nights when we actually

27:43

really caught a good rhythm.

27:46

But I've heard stories of Luther's

27:48

restrictions. Again, I'm

27:50

also a good friend with a

27:53

friend of the show is Sheep Gordon,

27:56

who would say, how ain'tal

27:58

retentive.

27:59

Luther was with the lights you can

28:01

use or the colors you can wear.

28:03

Yes, we never heard about

28:05

colors, definitely the lights

28:07

and how many channels on the mixing console

28:10

and.

28:10

Things like that.

28:11

But like Luther and I were buddies, you

28:14

know, and and Kenny because like

28:17

he has so much respect for Kenny as a songwriter,

28:19

because we used to give Luther demos

28:21

when we were on the road. Uh So we

28:23

just kind of built a relationship and we

28:26

never felt like there was a lot of

28:28

restrictions there.

28:30

As a matter of fact, he wouldn't even make us leave

28:33

backstage. He would let us state, you know, because

28:35

there used to be this when the superstar comes

28:37

out of the dressing room.

28:38

All right.

28:43

Now it's definitely still happens

28:47

one of those people is going to jail for thirty years.

28:49

But he used to do that all the time, right,

28:51

it was the same.

28:54

But Luther didn't do that to us.

28:56

He let us hang right and oh,

28:59

did you.

28:59

Know the drummer?

29:02

Yes? I own a snare

29:04

drummer?

29:05

You do.

29:05

I got lucky someone

29:08

had.

29:08

I'm sorry sidebar? How good was he?

29:10

Like? I want to know what you thought?

29:12

I loved your guests.

29:14

Actually one of the very first instructional

29:17

one of the first instructional drum things.

29:19

I used to my teacher used to make me watch

29:22

Yogi did one before he passed

29:24

away?

29:25

Wait, can I ask? Did he pass away

29:27

while on tour?

29:29

Yes, but not that tour.

29:32

Were you guys on the tour or we.

29:34

Weren't on the tour that he passed away on It was

29:36

two years later, okay. I

29:39

always wanted to know how how did Luther recovered?

29:41

Like finding another drummer and that sort of I

29:43

wasn't around, but we were on the tour when

29:46

Marvin passed away. We were on tour with Luther when

29:48

Marvin passed. I remember us having

29:50

a prayer moment backstage, completely

29:52

quiet. Everybody on the tour holding hands

29:54

and Luther. Yeah, it was really it

29:57

was really moving. It was really something. Luther

29:59

was really torn, right, all of

30:01

us were. I didn't know Marvin personally,

30:03

but obviously was touched by his music. But

30:06

Luther must have been very close to him because

30:08

he assembled everybody,

30:10

every truck driver, everybody backstage

30:13

right.

30:13

Oh really it was really special, really

30:16

special.

30:16

The reason why I'm asking you about tour life

30:18

is because I know eventually you're

30:21

going to morph into just

30:23

production, which of course means that you're

30:25

going to have to leave the band

30:28

in your mind? Is it like, okay,

30:30

there has to be something else other than this,

30:33

Like where's the point where suddenly

30:36

the wheels are turning and

30:39

you're like, okay, we have

30:41

to be a team, we have to write hits? Like

30:43

how does that happen for me?

30:45

It was.

30:47

We enjoyed being on the road. I enjoyed it.

30:50

On the very first tour that we did and

30:53

the second album, as we talked about material,

30:56

things didn't work, so we didn't have as much

30:58

work, but we still did some some

31:00

gigs here and there.

31:02

We worked, and then the third album

31:04

took a while.

31:05

So between our second album and

31:08

the third album, we started to develop

31:11

as songwriters.

31:12

And producers a little bit better, and.

31:14

Because the second album wasn't a

31:16

success, we.

31:17

Had a little more time on our hands.

31:19

So when we went back to do the

31:22

tour with two occasions,

31:25

I was over it, like seriously

31:28

was over it, like before the tour started.

31:30

And because I couldn't play anymore, man,

31:32

I lost. I didn't.

31:33

I don't know what happened, but maybe

31:36

I started thinking about it or I don't

31:38

know, but something got into me and I just couldn't

31:40

play anymore. And my

31:43

hands were hurting, like I felt like

31:45

I had arthritis in my hands, and I

31:48

just I lost it. I

31:50

mean at sixteen, I thought I was really good,

31:52

you know, at twenty one, I thought I was really

31:54

good. And by my mid

31:57

twenties, man, it just started to go away and

31:59

I really never got it

32:01

back. So like I still have this,

32:04

and that didn't upset you, Yes, it really

32:06

upset me except one thing. I

32:08

took that drum machine, and I'm

32:11

a master that thing I was.

32:14

I was like, I don't care who you are, Jimmy jam

32:16

Teddy Riley, I'm challenging anybody.

32:18

I could do this better than anybody, right, And.

32:21

So I switched what was your r choice.

32:24

I have every drum machine they made, Man

32:26

Drum, the DMX, the eight Away everything.

32:29

For me, I have to say,

32:31

you do you do have

32:34

a trademark. It's I

32:36

don't know how you did it or why

32:39

you did it, but I noticed it. Every

32:42

fourth, maybe every

32:44

eighth class, you will

32:46

put extra emphasis on

32:48

the refer right.

32:51

Like some class would be normal.

32:52

I got that from Jimmy Jam.

32:55

I straight stole that from Jimmy Jam

32:57

because control

33:01

bom right

33:05

and I loved it so much, so

33:08

it was really Jimmy's signature.

33:10

I borrowed it with friends.

33:12

But every it wouldn't be

33:14

every clap, it would be everyone. It

33:16

was strategically placed.

33:18

And for me, when I think of the

33:20

sound of classic, like

33:22

when I think of Jimmy, Jame, Terry Lewis,

33:24

it's like the sound of the classic gate Away,

33:28

right, the sound that old

33:30

boy who produced loosens Oh,

33:34

Nick Marnelli, that's right, that's right, five star

33:36

like anything that sounds like Jam and Lewis,

33:40

Like that's their trademark.

33:41

But for you, it's always.

33:44

Right to this day, like no

33:46

one has mastered that level

33:49

of gated reaverb better man

33:52

than you did.

33:53

But was that. Okay, you say you took it.

33:55

From him, I mean, but still, you know, we

33:57

learned from each other. And then I, you know, you're in bella

33:59

ship and do things with it. But

34:02

but I would spend hours, hours and hours

34:04

and hours and hours playing with those drum

34:06

machines and playing with rhythms and taking

34:08

Kenny's keyboards and

34:10

muting them and putting them through filters and playing.

34:13

I just played with the sound, you know, a

34:16

lot, and that became my new passion. So

34:18

that and a lot of that was

34:21

because, by the way, I never actually played live

34:23

on a recording session.

34:25

Really really.

34:27

I did when I was young, Like when I was young,

34:29

I did some records, but like after

34:31

we had the deal and when we be came

34:33

uh and started making records, like I

34:36

never actually played a live kit on a drum

34:38

on a.

34:38

Record, like never never on a hit

34:41

record, right, uh.

34:42

Hey, you know what it's called

34:45

for, right I was.

34:46

And then I heard you and then I was like,

34:48

oh, get out. I

34:51

remember I.

34:51

Heard about new record. I was like, yo, my

34:54

son telling me.

34:54

I was like, I was like, who is that?

34:57

And then I read about your Rolling Stone magazine

35:00

and with your dad and all think

35:02

I'm gone from.

35:03

Me anyway,

35:05

So can you talk to us about the conversation

35:08

that leads to you and Kenny, like

35:10

really making this official? Who was the first outside

35:13

non deal artist that

35:16

the La and Babyface that we know of.

35:19

Let's see, the very first one was when

35:23

we officially did it together. That

35:25

would have been the whispers rock

35:28

Steady, Yeah, rock Steady. That's

35:30

when we did it together and they hired Kenny.

35:32

They called Kenny, they didn't call both of us,

35:35

and Kenny said, I

35:37

have to have La with me, so he pulled me

35:40

along.

35:41

Okay, right, and.

35:44

It was really special. It was really good looking out

35:46

and we had a comfort

35:49

level working.

35:50

But Kenny was obviously

35:53

really famous and at Solar as

35:55

a songwriter more so than

35:57

like the two of us, you know, and because

36:00

of Yeah, that's kind

36:02

of what happened, and we went

36:04

in, we made rock Steady and then it became

36:06

official.

36:07

You know, did you know there was a pop

36:09

hit or immediately

36:12

did it become about it?

36:13

No?

36:13

I knew it immediate, I swear to you.

36:15

I did.

36:16

Like when what when we were

36:18

writing it? I knew when

36:20

we were we were in an apartment on we

36:23

lived on Highland Avenue in Hollywood,

36:26

and when we were writing it, I

36:28

had a really good feeling about

36:30

it. But then when we got in the studio and

36:33

we laid it down and we put the Whispers

36:35

on the background vocal before

36:37

they sang lead. I remember,

36:39

I'll never ever forget that moment. I was

36:41

like, oh my god, this

36:44

is a smash. I knew it, and

36:46

people in the studio knew it. Like in other rooms,

36:48

people would come around while we were working on

36:50

it and hang out in the doorway and watch.

36:53

It was just something special going on in that room,

36:55

and we knew it right. Uh.

36:56

And then when you know,

36:59

Scottie and walk from the Whispers put

37:01

their vocal on it, they just that was icing on

37:03

the cake. But I swear to you I already felt

37:05

it was a hit. And that goes back to your other question,

37:08

like our.

37:09

Hits manufactured or

37:12

factored?

37:13

Is it organic?

37:15

I think that it's a little bit of both.

37:18

Anytime I see the Whispers sing, both

37:21

Scotty twins sing in tandem,

37:24

right, who's doing the singing?

37:26

Because that sounds like one verse, it's

37:29

Scotty.

37:29

Scotty is the one, Okay,

37:32

Walter Walter is a lighter

37:35

version, same same

37:37

a very similar, tone, very similar,

37:40

but but Scotty has more power.

37:43

Oh so when is

37:45

it when it's guage

37:47

time?

37:48

That's that's Scotty that we know Scotty.

37:50

That's Scotty.

37:51

Man.

37:51

It just gets better with time and Scotty.

37:54

That's right.

37:55

Yeah, in

37:57

the mood, Scotty move, that's

37:59

Scotty. Okay, Oh

38:01

wow, Sorry for.

38:03

Telling the truth, y'all.

38:04

I appreciate it, but

38:06

I just always wanted to know why when they

38:08

sing. I've never seen just

38:11

one person sing that song. It's

38:13

always both of them together, I.

38:15

Know, right, Yeah,

38:17

that's the show show.

38:18

Yeah, that's what that is.

38:21

Dick Griffy, was that did he re react

38:23

to when you got that big hit? Did he say something to you about

38:25

I was curious because you was hitting some duds, so it's.

38:27

According to him.

38:29

Yeah, I don't remember.

38:31

I really don't remember it though, because we had

38:33

another hit at the same time that he wasn't.

38:35

Very happy about what girlfriend.

38:38

It was called Girlfriend, and it was

38:40

on and it was on a competing

38:42

label, m c A, and I

38:45

felt more. I felt

38:47

more shade from Dick about doing that

38:49

than I did. Congratulations

38:51

for making rock steady, damn.

38:55

Yeah, Okay, as a matter of fact, I

38:57

remember him coming to visit me once and I

38:59

was like, Hey, just made this record on

39:01

Paul.

39:01

I do I want to hear?

39:03

No, I actually I don't.

39:10

I love you, man, And

39:13

I don't say that like I'm trying to be protective

39:15

of reputationally or anything.

39:17

Like.

39:17

I really loved the man because

39:19

he was the first record executive

39:22

I ever met, So the whole idea of being

39:24

a record executive. I was heavily

39:26

influenced by him, right, and

39:29

watching him make decisions and kind of how

39:31

and why, and you know some

39:33

of the things he would say to me, you know, say

39:36

it was really it was really a good

39:38

and he was impressionable.

39:40

But we had a really good relationship.

39:42

Do you remember I was thinking about this today about Dick.

39:44

Do you remember something that you took with you

39:46

from being with him that you learn and something that you

39:48

said, I ain't taking that with me when

39:50

I do what I do.

39:51

Wait, as far as.

39:52

The things I didn't, if you have to hear you hang

39:54

somebody out the window.

39:55

Yeah I don't.

39:57

I didn't.

39:58

If it's a lot I didn't take, okay,

40:00

you know.

40:02

Answer, Yeah, there's there's

40:05

some things that I definitely uh took

40:07

with me. He called me once and

40:09

he said, let me ask you something.

40:13

Seem to know everything. Why are you still

40:15

living in Cincinnati? I said,

40:17

it's our hometown.

40:18

You still living in Cincinnati.

40:19

I was living in Cincinnati when we made our first

40:22

two.

40:22

Albums, right, And he

40:25

said, you can make more

40:27

money by accident

40:30

in Los Angeles than you can make on purpose

40:33

in Cincinnati.

40:35

Two weeks later, I lived in La.

40:39

Oh my god, now I know why you why

40:41

you left? It went to Atlanta. Okay, we're now going that

40:43

far yet, just

40:48

in.

40:48

That initial period, how are

40:52

Because the thing is, it's like the

40:54

deal guys never truly left us, because

40:56

I see different combinations of their names

40:59

as songwriter or

41:01

musicians. So how

41:03

what is what is the adjustment of

41:07

sort of dissolving the deal

41:10

and you and

41:13

you and Babyface starting your own unit

41:17

and like it is

41:19

a church and state?

41:20

Do you guys have your own management?

41:22

Your own Like are you

41:24

now prioritizing working in the studio with

41:26

these artists and then the group later?

41:28

Like how's how's this working out?

41:31

When I think back on it?

41:33

And maybe I've never thought about it this way, but

41:35

when I think back on it, I can see

41:38

how the other

41:40

members of the group could

41:42

really be unhappy with the choices that we made,

41:45

right although they ultimately

41:47

benefited everybody. In that moment,

41:49

I could see how the other members of the group

41:52

weren't very happy because

41:55

one one of the things was they

41:58

liked Cincinnati. My

42:00

other guys and it's still my friends to this day,

42:03

right, but they liked Cincinnati, and

42:05

Keny and I didn't. We had no desire

42:07

to be since Cincinnati. And

42:10

Kenny didn't even like Atlanta that much, right,

42:12

I mean he liked it, but like he didn't

42:14

he didn't live there very long. Uh,

42:17

he preferred living in Los Angeles, and

42:20

you know, and he was a very ambitious

42:22

and very talented man and is

42:25

is and you know, but the

42:27

other guys kind of were a little bit

42:29

more homebodies, so they weren't

42:31

as ambitious.

42:33

Was there an opportunity for them to join the fray?

42:35

Like who's coming with me? Who's coming with me?

42:38

Or was it?

42:38

Sort of like I think

42:41

after I'm trying to remember exactly how

42:43

it took place, but I feel like after the

42:45

last tour, Yeah, the

42:47

last tour we did, everybody

42:50

kind of went their separate ways without a conversation

42:53

Keny and I. After the tour was over,

42:56

we decided to move to Atlanta with

42:58

my was my girlfriend

43:01

at the time, right, And we

43:03

all decided and Darryl Simmons, who

43:05

is Kenny's best friend and

43:08

a really really talented songwriter and producer,

43:12

Yeah, he decided to move

43:14

to Atlanta with us. And

43:17

Ko went to Atlanta with us, but

43:19

Carlos and d who

43:21

were our.

43:21

Other lead singers, they went back to

43:24

Cincinnati.

43:25

Wait a minute, I'm so okay, so

43:28

worded that you're telling the story, because when

43:30

I was watching a new

43:33

addition headline the Essence

43:35

Festival, I was sitting there just marveling

43:37

at the fact that the

43:40

Michael of the group, the leader

43:42

of the group, really didn't get

43:44

his moment in the Sun the way that it should

43:46

have been, right, you know, because

43:48

even in the way that they craft their show, it's literally

43:51

like just the best mixtape ever right

43:53

there, forty years and you know, not

43:56

not even throwing shape. But yes, Sensitivity

43:58

was probably the

44:01

slowest part of the night, even though it was a straight

44:03

up hit, right, but no, no, no, no, But

44:06

by that point it was like nineteen hits. They

44:09

already did nineteen hits. It was like, damn,

44:11

I gotta go to bathroom sensitivity. All

44:13

right, right, let me take you like sensitivity

44:15

as the time, it was like, all right, let me sit down because I know poisons

44:17

about to come up.

44:18

I gotta rest my linight right right.

44:20

But I was like I was trying

44:22

to wonder in history, was there ever a

44:24

case where the

44:26

lead singers sort of faded

44:29

in the background while everyone else in the unit

44:32

got to do that? So

44:34

I always wanted to know what did what did

44:36

they do once like

44:38

in nineteen eighty nine, nineteen

44:41

ninety, like.

44:42

Did they try their hand that song? Right? Did they try

44:44

producing?

44:45

They made a couple of records

44:47

as the deal because although

44:50

we all went our separate ways, they did

44:52

keep the unit together and they toured

44:55

some. Uh, they did some dates

44:57

in Japan, and

45:00

they did a few dates here and there. They would work

45:02

on weekends at

45:05

least that's what I understand. And

45:07

they went out and found a couple of guys that could

45:10

do the job, you know, and they

45:12

worked.

45:12

They've been working. But they also they

45:16

took ninety five jobs.

45:19

Yeah, but then D got very lucky

45:21

because d D D Bristol,

45:23

he actually is the guy that wrote

45:26

the chorus I Only think of you on

45:28

two occasions that day and night.

45:29

He wrote that, so years

45:32

later Mariah Carey.

45:33

Used it on We Belong Together, so he

45:36

saw money money

45:39

still comes in.

45:40

Yeah,

45:45

just in general, between

45:47

nineteen eighty seven and nineteen

45:50

ninety one, I mean, god

45:52

damn.

45:52

You.

45:54

Had at least like

45:57

sixty plus hits

46:01

top forty hits. What

46:03

is like is what is the

46:06

not even the division of labor, but just in

46:08

terms of that much.

46:09

Volume, what does your life look

46:11

like? Right? Yeah?

46:12

Like how to me? Are

46:15

you bespoking these songs? Is it

46:17

like Jermaine comes to town

46:19

and you're like talking to him. Okay, here's a song

46:21

called Don't Take It Personal. You're

46:24

meeting TLC for the first time. It's like, okay,

46:26

well let me see a baby baby.

46:29

Like are these songs sort of like in the stash

46:31

somewhere in the back and you're like, would

46:33

you like this?

46:34

Would you like this?

46:35

Or are you custom making these songs?

46:38

Some of those songs were custom made?

46:40

Some of those songs. You gotta remember,

46:42

first of all, Kenny Evans is one of the most

46:44

prolific songwriters ever. So he

46:47

has a war chest of material that's

46:49

unreal, like I, you know, sometimes

46:52

I want to call and say, man, let me just go through

46:54

the tapes, like really,

46:56

because he's so prolific. That's

46:59

that's the first thing. So he

47:01

always had something.

47:04

But then when we like

47:07

if it were Bobby Brown, sometimes

47:09

we would start things from scratch Whitney Houston,

47:11

we would start songs from scratch where

47:14

we were thinking about the artists. But

47:16

then every now and then he would pull a song out that

47:18

he'd had for a long time, and I'm

47:21

Ready he gave to Tevin Campbell, which is one

47:23

of my favorite songs, and it had been around for like

47:25

ten years or better.

47:26

I think he met her. He might have had that song

47:28

when I met him.

47:29

Seriously, I remember

47:31

that long ago, like

47:34

in the first the first chapter

47:36

of our relationships as

47:38

musicians and friends. I remember hearing I'm Ready

47:40

on a demo, so there

47:42

was a backlog of material, but then we

47:45

would work on things.

47:48

End of the Road was I don't think End

47:50

of the Road was written for boys to man,

47:53

but once it was done, it was pretty obvious.

47:55

So I knew who to call.

47:57

Or I remember, you

48:00

know, how to match a song to an artist?

48:02

I don't know.

48:02

I don't really know, But I think that

48:05

that's what A

48:07

and R really is. It's artist

48:09

and repertoire, right, finding the artist and

48:12

the repertoire to match it when it's

48:14

particularly when it's people that maybe

48:16

either they don't write songs, or they

48:19

collaborate, or they accept outside

48:21

songs, and we tended

48:23

to work with people who accepted

48:25

outside material. We didn't like

48:27

it that much working with people who could also

48:29

write, because it always changed how

48:32

we would write, right, And

48:34

we had a thing that we liked to do,

48:37

and we thought of ourselves as we

48:39

thought we were.

48:40

The deal and whoever was singing was

48:42

the lead singer.

48:43

Right, But it was like every song was

48:45

I'm your Baby tonight is the deal feature in Whitney

48:47

Houston. That's how we always looked at right,

48:50

or my My Mine is the deal feature Johnny

48:52

gill or you know, because

48:54

me and Kenny and Ko and Darryll basically

48:57

played on everything you

48:59

know or programmed or how we want

49:01

to look at it.

49:02

We created all of the.

49:03

Music for it, uh, And

49:05

we didn't really like tampering. So I remember

49:08

once we were doing Jermaine Jackson and

49:10

we we finished some records and

49:12

then he brought in his keyboard

49:14

player to like reproduce

49:17

all the songs, and we were like, what's

49:20

this and the dudes and and I

49:22

forget his name.

49:23

Now he's really talented, but it was just changing

49:25

everything, and it was it was like, now

49:27

this doesn't work. No, I

49:30

said, we'll keep that solo.

49:31

We did.

49:31

That's the best we could do the rest of it.

49:33

You know, at work at

49:36

Saturday Night Live, whenever comedians

49:38

stand up comedians host the show, they

49:41

try to bring their team in to try

49:43

to write for them right, and

49:45

it never works. It's always best when you

49:48

just trust the system and let the

49:50

producers or let the writers do

49:53

it. So for that initial

49:56

gust of Eli face La

49:58

faced them, what

50:01

song.

50:03

Almost didn't make it?

50:05

Oh?

50:06

Man, let me see at least

50:08

a staple that we know.

50:11

I don't know.

50:12

I think we were way too greedy and ambitious.

50:14

Man, we're trying to get everything out, Like, I

50:17

don't I don't recall that one.

50:18

I don't have a good answer to that one.

50:21

Okay, you guys produced

50:24

Pebbles, and you also produced Karen

50:26

White's first record, right, first

50:29

album, Amazing Results,

50:33

second album. Why

50:35

didn't Karen White? Now I knew at the time she's

50:38

dating Terry Lewis. Why

50:41

didn't you guys work on the second

50:43

Karen White record?

50:45

Or is that a Benny Bendina thing?

50:48

Oh

50:50

no, that definitely wasn't a been anything.

50:53

Wait a minute, it

50:55

was.

51:02

Okay,

51:05

wait wait, let me ask fante.

51:08

For the life of you, can you sing the first And

51:11

I know jam Is gonna kill me for this, but even

51:13

I gotten to admit this. Can you name

51:15

can you sing the first verse of a Romantic?

51:18

No?

51:19

Dude, do you know that Romantic actually went

51:21

to number one? Yeah?

51:22

I believe that was on the radio hard though.

51:24

Wow, yeah it was number

51:27

one hop hit.

51:28

Yes, look at

51:31

space right now?

51:32

Exactly, yeah, exactly,

51:34

I remember the list.

51:41

Exactly.

51:41

Y'all all singing the wrong Romantic.

51:47

My whole point is that, yes, even though

51:50

they managed to get a number one pop

51:52

single off that Karen.

51:53

White record, there was no impact.

51:56

I couldn't name no cut for the life

51:58

of me.

51:59

And my thing is like, if it's not broken

52:02

now again, my assumption is she

52:05

married Terry Lewis, so it's sort of like just

52:08

bring your husband the workday or whatever.

52:10

But I wouldn't.

52:14

No, I think it was I think you nailed it.

52:16

Okay, so for entertainment, I

52:19

have to tell your story just for entertainment's sake,

52:21

and I'll go quickly.

52:22

No, we love this.

52:24

So we're in New Orleans where you are now. There

52:26

used to be a show called the Budweiser Superfessed.

52:29

Yes, yes, we're

52:31

on the tool thank you, and

52:34

we're on the package doing our

52:36

final tour with two occasions, and

52:40

Pebbles is with us. She's not on

52:42

the tour, but she's hanging out with me. Her tour

52:44

ended, she's just hanging with me. Benny

52:46

Medina invites us

52:49

to a Warner Music conference

52:52

that they're having in New Orleans, right,

52:54

and all the labels like Warner Electra,

52:57

Atlantic, all the labels and

52:59

all the big executives who I

53:01

didn't know at the time, Steve Ross

53:03

and Bob Kratz Now and David

53:06

Geffen and Quincy Jones and Doug

53:08

Morris and Jimmy I all these I

53:11

didn't know any of them anyway. So Benny invites

53:13

us because we happen to have one

53:16

of their hottest records, Superwoman

53:18

with Karen White at the time, So he invites

53:21

Babyface and I to the

53:24

conference.

53:25

So we're like great, So we

53:28

go to.

53:28

The conference and we walk

53:30

in and it's baby Face Pebbles

53:32

and myself and

53:35

I don't know record company politics

53:37

or anything like that.

53:38

Benny comes running over to us and.

53:40

Says, I invited

53:42

you, and I invited you, and

53:45

he points to Pebbles and he says.

53:46

But I did not invite her.

53:50

And I'm like, well,

53:52

if she can't come, then I

53:54

don't want to be here because and I

53:56

don't get it.

53:57

I don't And we turn around and.

53:59

Leave, and we and

54:01

and we fall out, and Ben and I don't speak

54:03

for a decade, right, wow.

54:05

And ten years later he told me it

54:08

was because la I was seating you guys

54:10

with Karen White, and it's her moment

54:12

and her competition is Pebbles, and you bring

54:15

Pebbles in and you know, at the same

54:17

table, like and I was like, oh,

54:19

I thought you would just being an asshole.

54:20

I didn't realize I was.

54:21

I was, I was long here.

54:24

I didn't know. I didn't know.

54:26

So so I didn't speak to Benny

54:28

for a decade and we never worked with Karen

54:30

again.

54:31

Yeah.

54:31

Wow, finally an answer

54:34

I'm satisfied with, be cause it's like, why

54:36

ruin the formula?

54:38

Why ruin the formula exactly.

54:41

And we loved working with Karen, like loved

54:43

it and we had.

54:45

Fun doing it.

54:45

Right.

54:46

She was fun. She could sing.

54:48

She had a great tone, great voice, and she

54:50

was like a real musician type of singer.

54:52

You know, she had some you know, she knew

54:55

music.

54:55

She knew about, you know, sliding

54:57

the family stone, things that we liked, she knew

55:00

about. By the way, the end of Superwoman

55:03

ever so slightly like Purple Rain.

55:07

With the strings and the slightly

55:16

nice the stories.

55:18

I like, got that.

55:21

Okay.

55:21

So you know we

55:23

were first introduced to you as

55:27

kind of solar house producers.

55:29

Yes, one how

55:31

did that phase?

55:32

And it almost looked

55:34

like you had a universal mc

55:36

A situation about to happen.

55:39

And then the next thing, I know, everything's

55:41

happening on Arista.

55:43

Now when you're doing

55:46

a roster, when you're when you're producing

55:48

for these artists, is

55:50

it a contractual thing?

55:51

Are you allowed to do other people or is it like

55:55

once you.

55:56

Start the Arista phase, you

55:58

must stick to Aristat and arrist.

56:00

Only it wasn't exactly that. It

56:02

started out that we were solar

56:04

in house producers for sure, and

56:07

after after the Whispers

56:10

took off and the deal and Babyface

56:12

had his little Silas.

56:15

We became friends with Lowell and

56:18

Cheryl Dickerson at both of them

56:20

and Jeryl Busby. We became friends with the

56:22

MCA crew and we went over

56:24

and started helping them.

56:26

We did the Mac Band for them. One of my

56:28

favorite songs.

56:29

We ever did was Roses Already Yeah

56:32

and feel Underrated. It feels like no

56:34

one knows it, you know, but I

56:36

really dig that. And we ended up doing

56:38

Pebbles for them, and he did

56:40

The Boys as well, and we did the Boys and

56:44

Ye later

56:47

when it became Motown, we

56:49

did Boys to Men.

56:50

No label CEO is making you guys

56:53

sound an exclusive contract to stay,

56:55

which is like it never occurred to Dick

56:57

Griffy to say, you guys are my

56:59

house only.

57:01

I think I did sign a contract with

57:03

with Solar for to be an exclusive

57:06

in house producer, but I never

57:08

got I never got the money, so I never

57:10

honored it.

57:11

Okay, cool, Yeah, you know, Uh,

57:14

he didn't hold me to it. I didn't hold him to it, and

57:16

it wasn't for that much money. Yeah.

57:18

So so we worked with with Louis

57:21

for a while and then Benny Medina called no

57:23

someone called us and asked us to meet Benny

57:25

Medina. So we went over and we met

57:27

him and we said who's on your roster? And

57:30

he named al Chi Role. We

57:32

were like, nah, Chaka

57:34

Khan, who was my favorite singer. But I was

57:36

like, I don't know how we could do any better

57:38

than I feel for you. No, And

57:41

then he said Karen White and I remember hearing

57:43

her on the radio singing these are the facts

57:46

of we and I was like, oh,

57:48

we could do something with that, right, And so

57:50

that's how it worked out. So, yes, we

57:54

were supposed to do Leface

57:56

Records with MCA.

57:59

It wasn't universal yet.

58:00

It was MCA and Irving

58:03

azof Ran the company and

58:05

uh Gerald Buzzby had already

58:07

departed to start Motown to take

58:09

over Motown, and uh

58:12

Louiel was still there.

58:13

Also, what was Lo Solas Junior?

58:16

Like just as an executive, a lot of energy.

58:18

He knew his records like you know,

58:20

he was a he was a DJ too, you know,

58:23

uh, and he remixed every song that came out,

58:25

like every single song that came out at

58:27

that time, he would remix.

58:29

He would remix Guy records

58:31

anything.

58:32

I thought he was just slapping his name on those

58:34

productions. I didn't realize that he had

58:36

a crew. We had a team of people.

58:38

He had an engineer, he had a programmer,

58:41

and it was him and he would take all the

58:43

records that he liked and would take him

58:45

in and do the remix of them, you know, And

58:47

and sometimes they'd be harder when he's done

58:49

with them, like not every time, but sometimes

58:51

they would be hard. But he was a lot of fun, really

58:54

competitive and at that time and

58:56

in black music in LA

58:59

they were like these three superstar

59:03

an R guys. One of them was Liuil

59:05

Silas Junior. The other one was

59:07

John McClain who was at

59:10

A and M that's

59:12

our dream interview. We can't find him for he's

59:15

the greatest. And then there was Bennie Medina who

59:17

was at Warner right. But these are like the three

59:19

stars in town and you

59:22

know, and they I became friends with

59:24

all of them and it was really great.

59:25

But Louis was great man.

59:26

He was fun. He

59:28

was great, great dude.

59:30

At the time.

59:31

When I first I think when I heard, uh,

59:34

Donnie seems to make the announcement that

59:36

Whitney Houston is going to work with Elien

59:39

Face, I got slightly nervous.

59:42

Wow, rightly, because.

59:44

The thing is that, you

59:46

know, the Whitney train was, you know,

59:48

and I'm not saying anything that that isn't

59:51

facts.

59:52

You know, she definitely it

59:55

was. It was overkilled.

59:56

We all know about the booing up, the Soul Train

59:58

awards and all those things.

1:00:00

Right, And.

1:00:03

I often wondered if placing

1:00:06

her in your hands was almost a setup

1:00:09

for a disaster, because the

1:00:11

thing is, like, the first album sells

1:00:14

twelve million, and the second album sells

1:00:16

fifteen million, So there's

1:00:18

like, in meeting with Clive Davis,

1:00:21

is he saying to yourself like, don't

1:00:24

fuck up, like y'all

1:00:26

better give me another ten

1:00:28

to fifteen million? And how

1:00:31

how was the general what was the general consistence

1:00:34

when I'm your baby, team night Only did

1:00:37

again, I don't consider it fil It

1:00:39

did a solid five million, right,

1:00:41

that's right, But it wasn't what the first two

1:00:44

albums were.

1:00:44

And actually I'm glad it wasn't what the first two records

1:00:46

were. But just can you walk us

1:00:48

through that whole What was the what was the

1:00:51

pressure?

1:00:51

I think that didn't feel pressure, first of all,

1:00:54

did not feel any pressure.

1:00:55

Didn't approach it that way.

1:00:58

He was very clear that

1:01:00

Whitney had a black problem.

1:01:03

So his goal.

1:01:05

Wasn't I want to sell fifteen million.

1:01:08

His goal was ingratiate my artists

1:01:10

with the black community, please like

1:01:12

stand beside her, work with her, because

1:01:15

they don't think she's cool, right, And

1:01:17

so success was simply

1:01:21

black people saying, okay with me.

1:01:23

She need a jam, right, that's all of

1:01:25

us.

1:01:26

That's all of us. And so

1:01:28

we didn't feel any pressure. And

1:01:31

we knew we couldn't. I'm being honest. We

1:01:33

knew we couldn't make those kinds of records, like

1:01:35

those those big records that she had,

1:01:37

Like well, yeah, okay, I

1:01:39

get that, you know, like we didn't write like

1:01:41

that, we didn't produce like that. I

1:01:44

think through a ballot you could have reached those heights,

1:01:47

probably right. But my thing is

1:01:50

that in that time in nineteen

1:01:52

ninety when you jack swing

1:01:55

is going GGA and you guys

1:01:57

are actually the proprietors. I mean, the

1:01:59

entire Don't Be Cool record is

1:02:01

a tutorial and you.

1:02:03

Jack swing them right, But

1:02:05

next to the Eyes

1:02:08

of a Stranger record. I was

1:02:10

so confused as to why

1:02:12

a shuffle song was

1:02:15

her first statement and

1:02:17

claiming her throne.

1:02:20

But it worked. Yeah, it was perfect.

1:02:24

Okay, yes, I think it worked

1:02:27

because the powers that be made it work. Everyone

1:02:29

knew who La and Babyface were, everyone

1:02:31

knew who Whitney Houston was, so it was like.

1:02:33

And it was a great song. Let's be it

1:02:35

was a great song. Yeah, yeah, like this

1:02:38

ship was a.

1:02:38

Jack Okay, but it was just an

1:02:40

unusual risky.

1:02:41

Song, Okay, all right, risky.

1:02:44

It was risky, like because

1:02:47

could DJs have played that in the nightclub

1:02:50

like that that level of shuffle

1:02:53

and twelve eight meter was like HARKing

1:02:55

back to like Luther Vandroz's Bad Boy having

1:02:57

a party, which it's more barbarie.

1:03:00

You watch out now, like

1:03:04

not every little step, not

1:03:07

on our.

1:03:07

Own, not girlfriendad

1:03:11

No, No, it's a risk. In the

1:03:13

hindsight, I will say it's the best

1:03:15

move because I

1:03:18

love when risks work.

1:03:19

But damn yo, like whoy.

1:03:21

We also you know what else?

1:03:23

It was we had played ourselves out,

1:03:25

like not to the public maybe, but

1:03:27

we had played ourselves out

1:03:29

with that sound, and we we had moved

1:03:31

to Atlanta and we

1:03:33

were experimenting because we were trying to

1:03:36

refine ourselves and we couldn't

1:03:38

do the down my Heart again. We

1:03:40

couldn't do you know, we just

1:03:42

couldn't do it anymore, like we had done

1:03:44

it so much on so many songs,

1:03:46

Like every song had had

1:03:49

that that kind of groove on it,

1:03:51

and it was it just got tired, you

1:03:53

know for us. And so I'm

1:03:55

here Baby to Night was it

1:03:58

was. It was a little bit of us reinventing

1:04:01

us as much as it was trying to give Whitney

1:04:03

Houston something that we thought.

1:04:04

Was to see that.

1:04:06

I would have thought Susan would have probably well,

1:04:08

if Susan didn't have a direct, proper

1:04:11

nown attached to it, I would

1:04:13

have thought, like my name is not Susan

1:04:15

would have been.

1:04:17

Right, Yeah, But I think that was what she needed.

1:04:19

It reminded me a lot of Jimmy Jam's story

1:04:21

of like doing with Janet and like, you

1:04:23

know, if was the one on the Janet

1:04:25

album, that was the one that was like Janet

1:04:28

the gimme just you know go, but

1:04:30

that's the way Love Golds was the one that's like, ohle

1:04:32

ship, I mean, it's you know,

1:04:35

it's a different thing, you know, And that's

1:04:37

what that was for me.

1:04:40

First, Let's turn it around and to be

1:04:42

honest, not to be that radio girl uses old

1:04:45

you know logic, but they both sound like

1:04:47

more female records like I'm

1:04:49

Your Baby to Night, it's way more female, just

1:04:51

like Janet.

1:04:52

Yeah, it's just it's just heard.

1:04:55

And it was like, I was really proud of it.

1:04:56

I was so proud of that record when we finished

1:04:59

it, because it was we had never done a shuffle,

1:05:01

we hadn't did it with no songs

1:05:04

like that, and I was

1:05:06

proud of I was just proud of it,

1:05:08

and it didn't matter to me.

1:05:11

The success of it.

1:05:12

And I know that sounds like I'm being

1:05:14

a little bit frivolous about it, but it

1:05:17

was more like, can we tackle

1:05:19

Whitney Houston and do something with

1:05:21

Whitney that hasn't been done already because we

1:05:23

can't do what she's done better

1:05:25

than she's done it, So can we do

1:05:28

something that's just our take

1:05:30

on it? And we did that successfully

1:05:35

and I was very happy with it.

1:05:37

And don't even lie, I really do like the drum feels

1:05:39

on it.

1:05:42

In hindsight, I think it's a great normalizing.

1:05:45

It normalized her, made

1:05:47

her relatable and down the earth, and

1:05:51

you know, because the joints I liked on

1:05:53

the first record were like the Sheep records and

1:05:55

that that's what man, and

1:05:57

it didn't happen. It didn't have any

1:06:00

sugar pop on it, which

1:06:02

right, I'm glad.

1:06:04

We had a little problem that we

1:06:07

never discussed. I never talked to Kenny about

1:06:09

it. But we did Whitney and

1:06:11

we did Michael, and our

1:06:13

Michael stuff never came out because we

1:06:15

couldn't nail it. We spent a

1:06:17

lot of time with Michael and we just couldn't

1:06:19

nail it. And we spent a lot

1:06:21

of time with Whitney and we were able

1:06:23

to get a little bit off. But

1:06:26

for some reason, those big stars,

1:06:29

because that wasn't our thing. Our thing was

1:06:31

the artist of our generation, Like that's

1:06:34

what we were great at. If we were great at anything,

1:06:36

it was like, let's work with Bobby Brown,

1:06:39

you know, let's work with Pebbles, Let's do Babyface,

1:06:41

let's do you know, Karen White, Let's

1:06:43

do our crew after seven

1:06:46

even like our crew.

1:06:48

But when we went outside of our circle

1:06:50

and tried to do those superstars, the truth

1:06:53

is we did not nail it. We

1:06:55

did not nail it. Now, we got something

1:06:58

off with Whitney and we developed an in we had

1:07:00

of a relationship with her that would

1:07:02

last for many years. But none

1:07:04

of those. It didn't resemble the success

1:07:07

that we'd had, not sound wise,

1:07:09

not signature wise, not impact

1:07:11

wise. And it was the first and you're right

1:07:13

because it was the first time that you could criticize

1:07:16

whether it was actually the right thing.

1:07:19

And after that we did Michael.

1:07:22

I mean, we couldn't even get out of the studio with a song

1:07:24

man. And we

1:07:27

knew how to write, and we knew how to produce,

1:07:30

but there was something about being in that

1:07:32

room with Michael that we

1:07:34

just were overshooting it and

1:07:36

trying too hard and just

1:07:39

could not get any nothing felt

1:07:41

natural.

1:07:47

So how hard was it to walk away from

1:07:49

the dangerous record knowing that damn

1:07:53

we couldn't do it.

1:07:55

We just knew it, Like when we went home, when

1:07:57

we left the studio after being in there for a month,

1:08:00

and when we were.

1:08:00

Oh wow, it was a month.

1:08:02

Yeah, and one song.

1:08:05

No.

1:08:05

We attempted to write several

1:08:07

songs and he and

1:08:09

he recorded, He recorded

1:08:12

background vocals on one, never finished

1:08:14

it, and he completed one, never

1:08:16

mixed it.

1:08:18

The Slave to the Rhythm song right, Slave to the Rhythm.

1:08:20

Yeah, So did anything happen

1:08:22

to those other songs that were meant for him?

1:08:25

No, they're just sitting.

1:08:26

There, sitting somewhere. I think they might

1:08:28

be in my vault.

1:08:31

I think it might be in my vault because that's where I

1:08:33

found Slave to the Rhythm that you know, I

1:08:35

because we didn't do Slave to the Rhythm with

1:08:38

Sony. We did that with Michael. We didn't do

1:08:40

it as a higher fight of record label.

1:08:42

That was a relationship just between us

1:08:44

and Michael. Uh So we

1:08:46

all kept we kept our tapes.

1:08:48

So was that a teachable lesson in or

1:08:51

make you leary of those A list stars?

1:08:53

Like?

1:08:53

Because I'm certain by that point everybody

1:08:56

was calling you like, who did you? Who would

1:08:58

you say no.

1:08:59

To a list that?

1:09:01

Well, Kenny became much better

1:09:03

at it, right because he

1:09:06

did Madonna successfully and

1:09:08

he did Eric Clapton successfully, and

1:09:11

so.

1:09:11

He became he nailed it.

1:09:13

I went the other way, which was I

1:09:16

only wanted to work with the artist that was signed that

1:09:18

we were signing.

1:09:19

I didn't want to work with anybody else.

1:09:20

You signed, You're like, I'm going to manufacture the

1:09:23

next ten millions.

1:09:24

Yes, I'm doing that. So I just went into that

1:09:26

mode.

1:09:26

And so what was the realization

1:09:29

point where it's like, hey, office

1:09:33

life, like, who

1:09:35

does that who wants who?

1:09:38

Who wants to be a rock star

1:09:41

and then says, or did you

1:09:43

realize earlier that all of the power and the

1:09:45

money and the success and the

1:09:47

magic.

1:09:47

Is behind It

1:09:49

wasn't that, you know what it was for me? It was it

1:09:52

was really the love of music, man. It was because

1:09:55

I loved music, not

1:09:57

only the music that Kenny and I made, but

1:09:59

when I met people like Dallas Austin,

1:10:02

or when I met like not just

1:10:04

people I work with, but when I would meet other producers,

1:10:07

I would love their music, like I love Jimmy

1:10:09

jam and Terry Lewis.

1:10:10

I like my favorite producers.

1:10:12

Leon Silvers is my favorite, you

1:10:14

know, amongst my favorite producers. And

1:10:17

when when Nellie Hooper did Sold the Soul

1:10:19

Like I met him and I was like taking and

1:10:22

Martinelli, I met him, McClaren, sayvon t Howison.

1:10:24

I just I love the people that made music.

1:10:27

So I didn't want a career that

1:10:29

was based on the music that I made.

1:10:32

I didn't think I was good enough for that.

1:10:34

I wanted to be a career that I

1:10:36

could work with people that I thought

1:10:38

were immensely

1:10:40

talented. So my career decisions

1:10:43

had only to do with music. It had nothing

1:10:46

to do with power, it had nothing to do with money.

1:10:48

It was a pure love of Damn.

1:10:51

I love how Dallas does this. I

1:10:53

love how Jermaine Dupre does that. Oh

1:10:56

my god, these kids organize noise, they

1:10:58

do this, and they do it. Was purely

1:11:00

my love of music and my love of

1:11:03

artistry, right, and I liked

1:11:05

the idea of like when we

1:11:07

met Pebbles, no one knew who she was and

1:11:10

we made her record and it worked,

1:11:12

and so and when we did Karen

1:11:14

White, no one knew who that was. I mean, she had one

1:11:16

song on the radio, but she wasn't famous, so

1:11:18

to speak, or or or our

1:11:21

own band, The Deal, or Babyface

1:11:23

or so.

1:11:23

I was so into.

1:11:25

Homegrown and I felt comfortable

1:11:27

and homegrown, and I felt uncomfortable

1:11:30

having to measure up two

1:11:32

stars.

1:11:34

But you realized that once you

1:11:36

get behind that desk, your

1:11:39

Jedi mind trick knowledge

1:11:41

has to go into overdrive. Because

1:11:44

I'm certain by that point, like when

1:11:46

you're having your own label.

1:11:49

You're trying to you got to talk people out of a lot of bad

1:11:51

decisions, right like you

1:11:53

you got to take meetings and you got to remember.

1:11:55

Names and

1:11:57

go to things like Jack the rapper

1:12:00

and whatever, shake hands and kiss babies,

1:12:03

like who would trade?

1:12:05

I think it's for the stage or in your life

1:12:07

like I had, like I was my group little brother

1:12:09

were signed to UH Atlantic,

1:12:11

you know years ago and

1:12:13

uh and you know, Julie Greenwall

1:12:15

we would have conversations and you know, she

1:12:18

would say, like, you know, we had to come up with recently.

1:12:20

She was just talking about how at this point in

1:12:22

her career she enjoys

1:12:24

kind of being in the stage kind of

1:12:26

you know where you are, and just all the OG's

1:12:28

in the game where they're able to kind of

1:12:30

sit back and see the whole big picture and kind

1:12:33

of direct from that standing where

1:12:35

it happens is more.

1:12:36

Yeah, like that's yeah, that's the thing, And

1:12:38

I get it.

1:12:39

It makes total sense, you know, versus when you're

1:12:41

you know, in your LA and babyface days where

1:12:44

you're actually kind of in the field, so to speak,

1:12:46

like when you're in the studio you're programming the drums

1:12:48

whatever. Now you get to kind of be the big picture

1:12:50

guy in.

1:12:50

A single all the pieces.

1:12:51

There's one thing I learned about it that I that

1:12:54

I do love and being

1:12:57

being an executive and

1:13:00

it had to do with choices

1:13:02

about artists.

1:13:03

And records and like

1:13:06

the great the ones.

1:13:07

I love that I considered the great Barry

1:13:09

Gordy obviously being number one on

1:13:11

that side of the lecture right as an executive,

1:13:15

Clive Davis, I obviously love and respect

1:13:17

Jimmy Ivan, I'm urt again, and

1:13:20

there are others, you know. But what

1:13:22

I loved is if they were

1:13:25

passionate about something, they

1:13:28

could drive it and to

1:13:30

your point, right, like I think you kind

1:13:32

of called it manufacturing, but it

1:13:34

was more like, if you have

1:13:36

this intuition or this instinct

1:13:38

that this gut that something is the thing,

1:13:41

and to just drive it through, right,

1:13:44

we believe it. I believe that belief thing

1:13:46

I liked. I like that I

1:13:48

don't see much of that these days. I really

1:13:50

don't like what I see

1:13:52

people really having to have data

1:13:55

to back up their decisions. I

1:13:58

like the fact that you know, we

1:14:01

did it with our gut, and we

1:14:03

were wrong a lot of times, but we were right enough

1:14:05

times that we are considered successful,

1:14:08

right.

1:14:09

And I liked that.

1:14:10

And I liked that particularly for

1:14:13

black artists, because black

1:14:16

artists don't often get an opportunity

1:14:18

to get a crossover shot,

1:14:21

a shot to the mainstream that

1:14:23

is all because like Whitney Houston

1:14:26

is because Clive Davis said this is for the

1:14:28

masses, Rihanna is because

1:14:30

I said this is for the masses.

1:14:32

When you signed Rihanna, I mean

1:14:34

she's now god status, like

1:14:37

there's yeah, she's literally.

1:14:40

Past She's past the vanguard level.

1:14:43

Like in my mind, Rihanna would have just been like

1:14:46

maybe Janet Jackson level where she just has

1:14:49

twenty hits under her belt, but she's

1:14:51

now past that point.

1:14:54

I can't say I knew all that.

1:14:55

Maybe j Brown knew it, maybe Jay Z knew

1:14:57

it right because obviously all of us we're

1:15:00

involved together, I can't

1:15:02

say that when.

1:15:02

I first saw her and I heard her first

1:15:05

Ponder replay, Jay Brown brought it to

1:15:07

me one night in the office, was really

1:15:09

late at night, and I was like, I guess

1:15:12

that was my reaction.

1:15:13

Yes, all right.

1:15:16

This is also the period where we were about

1:15:18

to sign to the label. I remember

1:15:20

once. I remember once going to a j show.

1:15:23

Rihanna was there and you

1:15:26

signed what's your name?

1:15:29

No, no, no, not Rita or.

1:15:33

Marie.

1:15:34

Now.

1:15:34

The energy that I felt in the

1:15:37

room when I was backstage was

1:15:41

Tierra Marie was going to be out

1:15:43

of the smash.

1:15:46

And Rihanna got the cute little hit and she'll

1:15:48

probably get on like now.

1:15:51

Her song and playing the mall.

1:15:52

Yes, I thought she's gonna be on that now.

1:15:55

That's what I call music volume thirty seven,

1:15:58

And the opposite happened.

1:16:00

Yeah, So how how

1:16:03

does it? Again? Is that Jedi

1:16:05

mind tricking where you have to know who your artist

1:16:08

is?

1:16:08

Like?

1:16:08

How long do you get to

1:16:12

absorbing artists to know what

1:16:15

they need in order to make it happen? I

1:16:18

think it's just like okay, so

1:16:20

especially when they self sabotage a lot,

1:16:23

right, So I.

1:16:25

Think this first of all, I think this helps answer

1:16:28

one of your other questions. Yes, we really

1:16:30

believed in Tia Marie.

1:16:32

All of us.

1:16:33

She got the Rockefeller chain, all of it. Yeah,

1:16:37

it didn't work. I love her as a person,

1:16:39

I saw her not long ago, but it didn't.

1:16:41

It didn't connect at all. The songs

1:16:44

didn't connect, the artists didn't really connect.

1:16:47

And so no,

1:16:49

you can't force it. You could,

1:16:52

you can, you can prioritize it, and you

1:16:54

can try, but you can't. You

1:16:56

can lead the horse to water, but you cannot make them

1:16:58

drink. Right, it doesn't. It didn't work.

1:17:01

Rihanna on the other hand, I

1:17:04

grew I grew into it personally,

1:17:06

Like I remember when it hit me. I

1:17:09

remember really well when it hit me, sitting

1:17:12

in the house one night and listening

1:17:14

to the demos and

1:17:17

you know, Jay Brown, Ti and those guys,

1:17:20

they were making her records like, and

1:17:23

they were giving them to me to listen to. And

1:17:26

I remember sitting at home listening to Good Girl

1:17:28

Gone Bad and all these songs.

1:17:31

I came back and said, wait a minute, guys, she

1:17:34

called an album that what should call an album? Good

1:17:36

Girl Gone Bad?

1:17:37

Right?

1:17:38

And it was like

1:17:40

it was a statement. Anyway, my

1:17:42

point is it? All

1:17:44

of a sudden hit me that she

1:17:47

was it. And then she did

1:17:49

this song called so Os and I

1:17:51

watched the video for so Os and

1:17:53

I took it home. I told

1:17:55

my wife Erica. I was

1:17:57

like, this girl is about to be the biggest star in the if

1:18:00

not the world, watch this video.

1:18:03

And we watched the video and

1:18:06

it was like, Okay, I get it. And then

1:18:10

she made Umbrella. And

1:18:13

when she made Umbrella, then

1:18:17

do I know Do I have an instinct? Do

1:18:19

I have an intuition in those moments?

1:18:22

Yes, because I knew that was

1:18:24

out of here.

1:18:25

I was like yep, she's gone right.

1:18:27

Okay, you get a song like Umbrella,

1:18:31

you get jay Z on that

1:18:33

song. Can he walk us through

1:18:36

the process of what it takes to make that song

1:18:39

connect with an artist, Like, how

1:18:41

do do you play it?

1:18:42

Who do you play it for? First?

1:18:43

Who gets there?

1:18:44

Did the dream just bring it in the dreams

1:18:46

processed?

1:18:47

Yeah?

1:18:47

So no, no, no, I mean creatively, I'm talking about

1:18:49

once you have album in hand, how

1:18:52

do you make sure that people

1:18:55

around the world know what Umbrella

1:18:57

is?

1:18:58

At the time? It's certainly it's

1:19:01

there.

1:19:01

There are more avenues

1:19:03

now, it's the game has gotten pretty complicated,

1:19:06

and it's and it's flooded, flooded

1:19:08

with stuff right from

1:19:11

all these platforms and all

1:19:13

this d I Y and every very

1:19:16

low barrier to entry.

1:19:17

So there's a lot more stuff than

1:19:20

there are than than there is special

1:19:22

stuff, uh in the game.

1:19:24

Back in those days, a

1:19:27

record executive can

1:19:30

make a record of priority and and

1:19:32

and put it on radio

1:19:36

all radio and

1:19:38

people will hear it.

1:19:39

And video video mattered,

1:19:42

right, and MTV matter, and

1:19:44

b E T matter and v H one matter

1:19:47

right, and so all of our all

1:19:49

of our avenues and our platforms. Uh,

1:19:52

we had enough influence that we could

1:19:55

get it a shot. It still

1:19:57

had to take off. But our job is just

1:19:59

to get it in front of the people, and

1:20:01

that's what we did. We got it in front of the people and it

1:20:04

took off.

1:20:04

So does that also mean that your relationship

1:20:07

has to be intact with I

1:20:10

don't know who like ran Empty

1:20:12

or Viacom at the time, or your relationship

1:20:14

with the whoever runs

1:20:17

Clear Channel.

1:20:18

Yes, yeah, it absolutely means

1:20:20

that. Yes, yeah, absolutely, those contacts

1:20:23

are golden.

1:20:25

They really are.

1:20:25

I mean we try to always keep them

1:20:28

and even with the changing of guards, right

1:20:30

we we're right there too,

1:20:33

you know, hail the new King, held

1:20:35

the new Queen. But the relationships

1:20:38

are golden. But it's also the artist

1:20:40

relationships with these people and with

1:20:42

these gatekeepers, you know, they

1:20:45

also have to have their own They have to do the work.

1:20:47

We can't do the work for an artist, and an

1:20:50

artist has to do that, you know. So it's

1:20:53

you knowing Tom, you know Poeman,

1:20:55

It's you knowing John Sykes, and it's it's

1:20:58

you know what I mean, it's it's you Stephen

1:21:01

Hill or Calderona, MTV or Jessic

1:21:03

Collins or whoever. In my it's you knowing

1:21:06

everybody also, uh, and that

1:21:08

has a lot of I think that has a lot of weight.

1:21:11

So even now, like, does it get

1:21:13

tiring to have to know

1:21:16

names and what they represent?

1:21:18

And how do you keep up?

1:21:20

La? It's exciting.

1:21:22

I'm the worst at that, sho Okay.

1:21:24

Exciting though not love that. I absolutely

1:21:26

love the challenge of that, like I and

1:21:29

and my memory is horrible. I mean, you can ask me

1:21:31

anything about the eighties. I remember

1:21:33

it, but anything from like twenty

1:21:35

eleven forward I barely remember. I don't

1:21:37

know why, but I really liked

1:21:39

the idea of it. I mean, once I embraced being

1:21:41

an executive, I did have a goal,

1:21:44

and my goal was to be the best.

1:21:47

Yeah, you know it, so check

1:21:50

it.

1:21:50

La only wanted to do about

1:21:52

an hour, but you know that we couldn't

1:21:54

let you go. So once we got him rolling, he just

1:21:57

wouldn't stop talking. So basically

1:21:59

that's it for part too. And I want you to check

1:22:01

back for our third and final QLs

1:22:03

episode with Eli Red. And while you're at

1:22:05

it, definitely check out our qs episodes

1:22:07

with Babyface as well.

1:22:09

You know, go ahead at hand, all right, see

1:22:11

y'all next time.

1:22:12

Thank you.

1:22:20

West Love Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio.

1:22:27

For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit

1:22:29

the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1:22:32

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