0:00

Of Course Love Supreme is a production of I

0:02

Heart Radio. Ladies

0:09

and gentlemen. Welcome to another episode

0:11

of Course Love Supreme. Yo,

0:14

man dog, I ain't got time to waste,

0:16

Steve, I'm

0:20

forgetting many

0:24

questions to

0:26

even start with the seven minute tribute.

0:29

You already know you're the man, Robaila. Okay,

0:32

I'll start with Okay, of

0:34

course, I believe I knew that you were

0:36

born in Oakland. I don't know, but tell

0:39

me where were you born? I was actually

0:41

born in Oakland, California. Um,

0:43

yeah, right in East Suckland Hating

0:46

Hospital. I'm

0:48

born and raised. The rest of my family is from

0:51

Louisiana, from Louisiana, Sweet

0:53

Port, Louisiana. And I'm the only out of

0:56

fourteen, I'm the only city slicker

0:58

that was born in the city. Wait, you have

1:00

thirteen other siblings? Yeah?

1:04

Are you the year of the baby? A

1:06

baby boy? But

1:09

I have a sister that's younger than me. What

1:12

is it that like in the household? Well,

1:14

everybody wasn't the household. It was it was a little

1:16

bit of your dad.

1:20

It's a little bit of that. But we were like, uh, my

1:23

father has some kids before he married my

1:25

mom, before he's my mom and

1:27

then you know my brother Duayne, he had a different

1:29

mother, So me and Dwayne have different mothers.

1:32

Okay, got you bind

1:34

the family? Yeah?

1:37

Is the entire family musically

1:39

inclined or just you and Duayne? No,

1:42

uh, it's a few of us. My brother Randy,

1:44

as you probably heard him seeing on a record called Holy

1:46

Smokes and Gee whiz Y. That's

1:50

that's the real talent in the in the family. We

1:52

were all like an afterthought when he came to music.

1:54

We just kind of snuck in there a little

1:56

bit. Where does Randy

1:58

fall into the bruce? He's

2:00

like the He's

2:03

like the fourth from

2:06

the oldest. He's like another brother named

2:08

Alvey Wiggins. Who's uh he's

2:10

saying country music. Charlie Pry was his favorite

2:12

uh uh singer. So he

2:15

was a country singer, but he was he was a street

2:17

thug though he he was a real hardcore

2:21

He was not no thunk. He was a classy like

2:23

gangster, you know what I mean. But he was he's

2:25

saying country music.

2:30

Yeah, this explains a lot of

2:32

your wait, where does where does that? Where

2:35

does Dwayne fall in line with you?

2:37

Wayne's Dwayne is we had another

2:39

brother in between me and Duanne named Desmond.

2:42

Desmond was the drummer in the family, and Desmond

2:45

passed away when I was seventeen

2:47

years old. And the Wayne is the older

2:50

than him, one a couple of years older than

2:52

Desmond, So Dwayne would

2:54

be Dwayne would

2:56

be like the six youngest boy.

3:00

Okay, that's confused,

3:02

And actually I started thinking about it like that. I'm

3:04

like totally confused. Okay,

3:07

So I know Thanksgiving and Christmas has been

3:09

hell of crazy. Yeah, it was actually good because

3:12

you know, it's just a lot of music in the house and a lot

3:14

of Teddy. You know, my step mom loved

3:16

Teddy Pendergrass and Osley

3:18

Brothers. So that's where we that's where

3:21

our guitar stuff comes from because we

3:23

get to stay outside as long as we could.

3:25

If you know, if they if they was having a little party,

3:28

but in the house, it will be Teddy Pendergrass and

3:30

it'd be uh Osly

3:33

brother So this is the first time I got a

3:35

chance to say ship was on Fight to Power

3:39

Fun Parents. What

3:43

what is your actual first musical memory

3:45

that you I think for

3:48

me, I was like a kid who like who had you

3:50

know, you know, you have to be outside playing with individuals

3:53

and your friends and I'm not really great

3:55

friends and um, but I think mine was when I

3:57

first got my first UM

4:00

based amplifier. I had this uh unifox

4:03

and I had a copy fended jazz called

4:06

the Orlando, and

4:08

I opened up the case and I thought it was real

4:10

fur. I thought I was rich

4:12

because I had this basic guitarist fur. It was this

4:14

fur inside of it. That was my first musical

4:18

experiment experience really, And then

4:20

I played trump. I played first trumbone and jazz

4:22

man too, So I

4:24

wanted to play saxophone, but they

4:27

I wanted to play saxophone but didn't have anymore.

4:29

What ages this again? This isn't

4:31

just in grade school? Well, grade school I was just starting

4:34

to play. But by the time I got to high school,

4:36

I sat in the first chair playing trumbone.

4:40

Okay, So I

4:42

mean, what what is it like to grow

4:46

up in Oakland?

4:49

Um? Kind of watching?

4:53

You know, at least from my point of view. You know, the

4:55

legend of Oakland is it's

4:58

slid on the family Stone and Graham Central Station

5:00

and Taro Power and all all

5:02

these like powerful musicians that are making

5:04

like you know, they're international

5:06

stars. Like what kind of impression is that leaving

5:09

on you? For me,

5:11

it was it was everything because

5:13

we're basically a Larry Graham

5:16

was more of the idol for for me because I'm a

5:18

bass player, right but right,

5:20

so, you know, like one block you would

5:22

have, you know, a band plan

5:25

and it was a band in every garage everywhere we looked.

5:27

It was like Natty Natalie Cole had a band that

5:29

was played in Oakland. So when they were off

5:32

and not touring, they would be playing

5:34

in the garage. So Willie Wild who played

5:36

with Graham, Central Station, and we

5:39

would see like you know, Larry

5:41

Graham and Um, you know, riding through the neighborhood

5:43

on the Harley Davidson and then slide.

5:46

That was their thing, rides like Harley's, like the Choppers,

5:48

the Short Choppers, and so they were

5:50

like our comic

5:52

books characters for us because I

5:54

saw all we knew was like it was almost like a like

5:57

MCS, like Rappers. It was like Battle the Bands.

5:59

It was Battle Battle Rappers,

6:01

Battle Battle of the Band's Battle

6:03

Base players. If you couldn't play

6:05

like um the jam

6:08

or the Son called pile on the base,

6:10

how I got you that's

6:14

a head country

6:16

and going to rock. I

6:18

got that you will get yours

6:21

wrong. I mean everybody

6:23

in our neighborhood. Everybody

6:26

in our neighborhood to play base,

6:28

our our guitar or drums. So

6:31

I was about ten or eleven. You

6:34

were walking into a garage and the band was playing.

6:36

Somebody would say, hey, my little brother could play bass.

6:38

So you you couldn't really get on the base unless

6:41

you knew how to play pile, because somebody

6:43

was gonna test you out. They were gonna

6:47

that was gonna say, and you play pile

6:49

and then you have to do like this, like yeah,

6:51

as soon as you say yes, they only give you

6:53

two seconds before the drummer just kick it off.

6:56

Wait a minute. This

6:59

is how I knew you're a special individual.

7:02

Literally last week. Last

7:04

week the roots like did our

7:07

like our first run in in like eighteen months.

7:10

And so I don't know how, but

7:12

I think, uh, one of the one

7:14

of these songs from star Walk came

7:16

on. I think it was Sneaky

7:18

Freak, and my band

7:21

was asking me about it, and

7:23

the way I was putting it to them was

7:27

I was like, I don't know how to accurately judge

7:30

Larry Graham's cannon

7:33

because I know, like hit wise,

7:36

you know, the first three gram Central Station

7:38

albums were like national hits

7:41

like up until Ain't no about to doubt it, but

7:43

somehow it got a little

7:46

weird around not or Mirror was like a

7:48

hit. I remember that being a hit when I was a kid. But

7:51

it's something about now

7:53

do you want to dance? And my

7:55

radio sounds good to me? And the

7:57

star Walk album albums that didn't

7:59

have hits on them, but every

8:02

from Prince to every musician I know,

8:05

they swear by those three records. And

8:08

we were watching Graham Central

8:10

Station do pow last week and

8:12

we were kind of I was I was laughing because I was like,

8:14

I know this is good, but it

8:16

wasn't a hit. So I'm trying to figure out, like,

8:19

am I the only one that got this song? And

8:21

you mentioned so you're saying to me in

8:25

Oakland that song is a writer of passage

8:28

to everybody. I mean, I mean you could

8:31

walk up to a guy in Oakland and

8:34

I have a friend named Lord Nell and I didn't know this,

8:37

and um and um, he's just

8:39

one day he asked me what I know about

8:41

Larry Graham and I'm like looking

8:43

at him like what this dude. All this dude

8:45

say, he's a security guy stand quin

8:47

in prison. That's all I know about him. He just

8:50

goes but they'll smoke

8:52

a mama, And I'm like so

8:57

and Oakland and and oh Glinn,

9:00

Larry is bigger than then this

9:02

slid. Larry

9:06

is like Larry is

9:08

like um. When I

9:11

was a kid, I went I was going on the snow trip and Tahoe

9:13

and I went to buy some mittens

9:15

like ten or eleven. And I

9:17

was walking the store called Lungs Drugs. It's

9:20

in Saliandro and I walk

9:22

in the store. I walk

9:24

in the grocery store in Larry Graham

9:27

and Chockolate is getting out of a

9:29

black Thunderberg suicide

9:32

doors with the wig on, with

9:34

the album released. How they looked and release

9:36

yourself when they're in the air jumping up to sitting

9:38

there is that Larry Graham.

9:41

Wo So I started following

9:43

him around the grocery store, looking through boxes

9:46

and and everything. So before he

9:48

walks out, I run out and said

9:50

at the bus stop right in front of the store. But

9:53

I'm not looking back at him. I'm just looking

9:55

at the street. So Larry

9:58

and Chocolate walk up to me in front of bus

10:00

stop and look dead at me and go how are

10:02

you doing? And I'm like freaking out,

10:04

Like it's like a Star Wars moment for me. I

10:07

should not go like and I go, are

10:09

you Larry Graham? He was like, yeah, I'm Larry Graham.

10:12

It's a chocolate And I was like freaking

10:14

out. Bro. So yeah, he

10:16

was like a superhero to us. But Pop, you

10:18

have to answer your question. How the

10:21

jam David dynamite?

10:23

But what about earthquake? Earthquake?

10:28

Um? They were trying to destroy their base

10:31

with the towel and all that stuff that year.

10:34

And if you listen to sit today

10:37

the song today, right, So

10:40

we used to sit in the room as kids and

10:43

just sit by the turntable and wait

10:45

for that bill to go off. Every

10:48

time we let somebody hear that song, we

10:50

would never let them leave for

10:52

the first time into the bell rings

10:54

all the way out. When

10:57

I let D'Angelo here today for the first time,

10:59

I made D'Angelo listened to it, to the bill

11:02

win all the way off, because

11:05

that's how we kind of grew up. Everybody had to listen to

11:07

the bill the first time. Dog,

11:10

what's rain for? Like? What three minutes. That's

11:12

what I was For

11:15

those who don't know about the song, he's saying for

11:18

three minutes. You know,

11:20

I'm also hating that I'm having this conversation

11:22

because I think I was ready

11:25

to just dismiss it because

11:27

one of the one of the one of the playlists

11:30

that I have or my Spotify

11:33

is called Songs and and E Minor

11:35

and Songs and the Minor that I hate. I

11:39

know for bass players like E

11:41

Minor is like

11:45

a rite of passage key, but for

11:48

me, it's like unless

11:50

you're trying to top the

11:53

Jam or shigning Star or

11:55

thank you for let Me be Myself like or

11:58

or a song like Glide, like

12:00

I almost feel like that's such a

12:02

taboo key for bass players. But yet

12:06

like the amount of songs that I hear people

12:08

trying to attempt to

12:10

to hop that Jump, that Cliff that

12:12

film and Louise Cliff and they never

12:15

make it. Now

12:17

now you got me, Like, now I

12:19

gotta go back and reconsider that just because

12:21

it's it means something in Oakland. That's that's

12:24

very true. I mean, I mean I can't I've

12:26

never I don't think I've ever wrote a song that

12:29

was worth anything any Minor. I

12:33

care from Oakland. I don't think you

12:36

is that even on purpose, Like I

12:39

just don't think. I just don't every time

12:41

I don't. I heard, I mean I heard through the grapevine

12:43

that you know, um through one of my friends.

12:46

Um she does

12:48

does she does that. She has

12:50

a podcast What what What? Most Steps? Mom?

12:52

Um and UM erica'

12:54

connor and and she talked to you spoke to your

12:56

mom, I think, and they said you

12:58

had perfect your mom's that you have perfect pitch

13:00

as a kid. Yeah,

13:03

so I only have perfect pitch for a natural

13:05

because of Larry Graham. Wow.

13:10

Anything past that, I'm done.

13:12

You tell me because I played every

13:14

every Graham song and I could

13:16

just now I

13:20

know where I'm Yeah, I mean I based

13:22

all my things on whatever the song is.

13:25

You know, like if you say

13:27

b Minor, I just instantly think, don't

13:29

stop the year enough. If you say it's

13:32

also based on the print of Michael Jackson's on g

13:35

I'm like, oh, that's shake your body down to the ground, So it's

13:37

not. And

13:39

even I spoke to Billy

13:41

Graham one time I was hanging outside

13:44

of Oakland collis in. I

13:48

think you meant Reverend Billy Graham. I'm like, well,

13:50

no, Bill Graham, the proter,

13:53

the promoter. He saw

13:56

me trying to sneak in this concert. He

13:58

left me in the concert and he's said, are

14:01

you musician? I said yes, And he says, what

14:04

do you? What do you play outside of play bass? Who's

14:06

your favorite musician? I said Larry Graham.

14:09

He said Larry would be much better if you stopped

14:11

making battle records and

14:14

so and by him saying that,

14:17

who know I was gonna be ever making records?

14:19

I didn't know. I never tried to be

14:21

a singer or anything. I just want to play in the band. I never

14:23

wanted to be a singer. I never

14:25

wanted to be a lead singer.

14:28

I just wanted to play for a band and

14:30

work at a record store. That was probably

14:32

it. And um, but once he said

14:34

that I started making music, it

14:36

always stayed in my head. Never tried

14:39

to be a battle band trying to make records. That

14:42

makes sense because even

14:44

his songs were about how good of a band

14:46

we are and you'll never get to this

14:48

level of perfection that I'm iNTS to battist

14:51

group from East to West. What

14:55

was it like the first time you got Larry Graham's ere for

14:57

real. When when I first

14:59

got his yere, I was I was at Eddie

15:01

Murphy's house and he was hanging out with Eddie Murphy and

15:03

I'm like wow. So he was just

15:07

yeah, he was hanging out in the garage. It was

15:09

just me and him in the garage, and I

15:11

was like, Okay, when am I going to break this to this

15:14

dude? Did I've been like the stalking

15:18

my whole life and I'm because

15:20

we're talking on some creeens, just real cool, and

15:22

I was just like, forget it. Here we go. We're sitting

15:24

in the garage next to some jet skis. I said, hey, man,

15:27

I grew up in Oakland. I was in a band

15:29

with your son, Derek Graham

15:33

and um in my high school band. He was like really,

15:35

I said, yeah, man, I played bass, so I didn't have

15:37

a bass on me. I had an acoustic.

15:41

So I tried to play something on acoustic

15:43

that was his and it just didn't work. Tony

15:48

didn't mean anything to him at that time. He

15:51

I think he knew about the Tonys, but he didn't

15:53

know when I played bass. Remember,

15:55

nobody thought I was like everybody dance,

16:00

you know, Nobody knew that I was

16:03

only made to play Base because when we first

16:05

came out, there were no bands

16:07

out and and everybody wanted us to be like,

16:09

you know, we had to compete

16:12

with Guy and everybody was

16:14

out. So I had to put the base down and

16:16

had to become this other thing. So nobody

16:18

really knew me for playing bass, which I felt like

16:21

Lioness and Charlie Brown like, I put down my security

16:23

blanket, which was what's what's

16:25

my base? That made me feel very manly and tough

16:28

and made me feel all these different things. So

16:30

when I put it down and became and had to sing, I

16:32

wasn't really confident about singing, so he

16:35

would have no way of knowing that I was a bass player

16:37

even though I played. I played all the records on

16:39

the base on based on the Tony's album

16:42

Wow. Got

16:45

Graham in my studio and

16:47

Blastlee and he came

16:49

over and I got on the base, and I completely

16:52

cannot play base in front of Ground. It

16:58

hasn't worked yet. Everything on I tried to play,

17:00

I was like bro for some reason,

17:02

it just stopped working right now, so I just left it alone.

17:08

But when he leaves, I'm like killing

17:12

it. You got mine control over Larry Graham. Yeah,

17:16

stop talking, Yeah we we. He

17:19

played on my album, like two albums ago. We did

17:21

a slung together it's

17:23

a hiding track and I played guitar and

17:26

Rob Bacon play guitar and he played bass

17:29

and he played right in front of me, and I was just

17:31

sitting there. I was playing guitar, like this

17:34

is crazy. And still you

17:36

ain't playing bass in front of him. Damn wow.

17:39

I think I sat in front of Slide and um

17:43

Slide and and and George Clinton

17:45

maybe two times, and this is weird. Every time

17:47

I get around Slide it's

17:49

weird too. I kind of just staring

17:52

Slide and I have to leave

17:54

because I'm like this dude is like right.

17:58

I just kind of walked out

18:00

and George says, George told

18:02

Slide he said, uh, he said, yeah,

18:05

boy did. He said, that's the answer to you right

18:07

here in Oakland. It's me. He said, that's about me. And

18:09

I was sitting there looking at them because I'm friends with his daughter,

18:12

and I was like, all this greatness in the room,

18:14

George and the Slot.

18:16

It was actually sitting in the mobile home in front

18:18

of Eddie Murphy's house for two

18:20

hours, and so

18:23

Eddie goes, who is that in that

18:25

in that mobile home? And I goes

18:28

and you' nobody was uh

18:30

uh slide slide,

18:32

And George and Eddie started laughing. But I

18:34

knew it was them. They just sat in the

18:37

in the in the in the mobile home for two hours before

18:39

they walked in. What

18:41

was they doing?

18:43

You know? This

18:50

was this is no longer getting this is maybe

18:52

four or five years ago. Okay,

18:55

gee yeah, yeah,

18:57

he together, man,

19:03

I can see all this for hours. We gotta push a little

19:05

bit. Um. Before

19:08

you started the group, I know that you you you cut

19:10

your teeth, uh playing

19:12

with bands, and I know that why

19:14

I knew of you because of your

19:17

association with Sheila. But what

19:19

acts were you playing with? Was she like

19:21

like the first national act that you got to and

19:24

how that situation happened? Was there anyone

19:26

before that? No? Really

19:28

before that, I was I was playing locally. Um

19:31

that really started to Tony's. I played

19:33

a lot of local bands and I

19:35

played I played for the Hawkins

19:37

family a bit. Yeah.

19:43

Joel Smith was sort of my um

19:45

my idol bass player. He passed away

19:48

one of the best bass players in the world and

19:50

drummers and Um, besides you. You you're

19:52

probably my one of my best favorite

19:55

basing drummers. I tell everybody said

19:57

one thing about Quest. No bass

19:59

player can hey on Quest. If you play bass, you

20:01

should just murder him. Because the

20:04

kids una understand that I had is

20:07

It's like what I used to look for as a kid. I would knock

20:09

on if I hear a drummer in the house,

20:11

I would knock on the door and say, hey man, I'll play bass.

20:13

That's how I grew up. So I

20:15

started playing with the Hawkins family. I played with

20:17

the Nette Hawkins. I played with Shirley Miller, I

20:20

played with Vanessa Bill Armstrong, and

20:23

then I started playing with Sheila and eight six

20:25

audition. Levi caesar Um

20:29

got me the gig. He called me and said,

20:32

you know you want auditioned for Sheiley and Eddie six

20:34

audition And we went on on the Cherry

20:36

Moon tour in Japan, and

20:39

when Lisa was still playing with where

20:43

in Japan? Well the way that he

20:46

fired the revolution After Purple Rain,

20:48

it finally made the Internet. It's it's

20:50

the Clippers on the Internet. But there's

20:53

a moment where Wendy and Lisa say they knew

20:55

that they knew the band was over. He

20:58

took the cloud guitar and

21:00

and destroyed it on stage, walked

21:03

off stage, came back, did another solo,

21:06

and then destroyed that Cloud guitar. And

21:08

then when they and Lisa and Bobby looked at each other and

21:10

it's like, yeah it's over, it

21:14

was over. So yeah, it was

21:16

pretty It was pretty much over on that tour. But

21:18

you know, like I said, I was like eighteen years old,

21:21

so I just had a good time hanging out with Like

21:23

Cobby was a sound guy, um

21:26

round Mark. I used to get play out of his rig

21:29

and and because the band was breaking

21:31

up, Prince would use us to play all the after

21:33

gigs. So I would play like You

21:35

Need Another Lover or the whole album.

21:37

Um every club Prince would call us to

21:39

play instead of them. Is that

21:42

why one of our listeners asked me to ask you about

21:44

the opportunity to be in Princess band. Was it from

21:46

them? Well, I was. I was

21:49

gonna be an original band from Madhouse, the group

21:51

called Madhouse joint

21:54

right. It wanted to be in being a

21:56

band called Madhouse. But when we

21:59

heard the band was going be wearing like mask

22:01

over their face, which would have could have been dope. We

22:04

had already sort of formed because at

22:07

the time it was me and Tim to him. Tim

22:09

Riley who played with the Tony's, he was a drummer

22:12

and Um, I got the gig first, and

22:14

then Sheila was like, don't bring back a drummer.

22:16

I brought to him back anyway, he auditioned

22:19

and and my

22:21

friend Carl Wheeler, he played keyboards, and all

22:24

three of us went. We rehearsed for like two months,

22:26

fifteen hours a day. Prince hired us

22:28

to play for it because he was paying the bills

22:30

basically, and I

22:32

was seeing his parts in Erotic City. He

22:35

would say stuff to me. But the first time he walked up

22:37

to us, he he walked up to us with a yellow

22:40

suit on, and they came and he walks

22:42

out and he goes, um, what's your name?

22:44

And you know, everybody said he name, and then he goes,

22:47

Hi, Prince. We're looking

22:49

like, oh ship, I mean we're

22:52

in the middle of this, We're in the middle of the stadium,

22:54

like all this sound. I've never heard

22:57

this much power before. Because

22:59

when we came out, it was like when he came out, he would

23:01

come out around the world in the day and

23:04

the curtains would just be that

23:08

the Yeah, And so I was sitting I

23:11

was sitting in a baseball dugout, which is a

23:13

folded like makes a folded

23:16

cat movie, so you can hear all the base

23:18

and I'll just say the Revolution

23:20

was the best band he ever had,

23:22

except you know, I wish you, you know, death Daz

23:25

would have been there. Yeah,

23:28

that was it. That was pretty much at school high

23:31

school. I played in jazz band,

23:33

I played for choirs, I played

23:35

gospel, I played funk, I play every

23:37

club there was. And then

23:39

it was then right off the back, it was Prince and

23:41

she like, look, I feel like this

23:44

is probably the only time I me get the opportunity

23:46

to ask you. And you know, I'm a print

23:48

head, but you already mentioned

23:50

the Hawkins family, and I just

23:53

literally like, I, what

23:55

is what is that circuit? Like

23:58

like that whole hospool

24:00

circuit in in in the Hawkins.

24:03

Was it Walter or Edwin? It

24:05

was Walter at this at

24:08

this time, it was more Walter that Edwin

24:10

is the pioneer who you know kind of produced

24:12

that the version of Old Happy Days because that's

24:14

really an old song, but he

24:16

actually reproduced it his way,

24:18

But honestly, playing

24:20

for playing for like the Hawkins family for us

24:23

was that's equivalent

24:25

to like Tower power in Oakland. You

24:28

know we had Tower power then we had the Hawkins

24:30

family and they

24:33

were the whole circuit. They were the whole gamute.

24:36

If you want to play gospel, that

24:38

was the biggest god. Besides you know, if you go

24:40

down a little south, you've got Andre Crouch. Did

24:43

you play with Crouch at all? No? No,

24:45

justink my I'm a huge fan and I

24:48

listened to him like every every week. I

24:50

listen to Dre Crouch. But

24:53

it's it's a big circuit. It was. It was great

24:55

music every Sunday morning every week. Uh.

24:57

Right next to to my high school was Love

25:00

Centers First

25:02

Church where they recorded like follow Me in

25:05

all these records. So we would

25:07

go to we would go to lunch and we will listen to Joel

25:09

Smith and Um Johnson the boast rehearse

25:13

at lunchtime. What yeah,

25:16

How was the money's

25:18

gospel money? How's gospel money? As a teenager

25:20

in a band, how's the gospel money? Man? Let me tell

25:23

you something. I'm never worried

25:25

about no money in the music industry till

25:27

now wait what now, I donunderstand.

25:30

I don't understand how much I love music. I made

25:32

money being an artist now, but I

25:35

play so many gigs because I

25:37

love music. You know,

25:39

whatever money I got Oakland,

25:42

Hey man, if he wasn't getting murdered or killed

25:44

when you wake up, everyone else is extra. I

25:50

mean, we

25:53

used to. We had our sound managed

25:55

to cost the Tony's. Our sound managed to cost us a hundred

25:57

and fifty dollars, and we was making

25:59

a hundred and fifty dollars playing the clubs we

26:02

just had. We just got rid of the

26:04

idle time that we didn't need to be hanging out

26:06

in the street because we were. We pretty

26:08

much just not no band. Dudes, if you're in Oakland,

26:11

you gotta do Oakland things too.

26:14

When to you know, til you get done with doing

26:16

Oakland things? Okay?

26:18

Since Too Short was on the show and he kind

26:20

of outed himself as a nerd disguise

26:23

as a gangster, we

26:29

what was I mean,

26:31

how did how did you? Because I'm

26:33

I'm thinking that

26:35

that life chooses you like you don't

26:37

have a choice to say I'm not going to

26:39

do that or I will do that, because I

26:42

feel like that life chooses you, like, you don't

26:44

have a choice but to walk past

26:47

this corner and past this group and either get jumped

26:50

in or beat down whatever. Like, how

26:52

did you avoid what I

26:55

know to be Oakland? Because Oakland

26:57

is probably want to be Rasies.

27:00

I mean the Bay Area in general, especially

27:03

when we first started going there, like in the nineties,

27:06

so I know that in the eighties and in the

27:08

seventies. I mean, you're you're forever gonna

27:10

look thirty six, So

27:13

I don't know how old you are, but I know although

27:17

you look like

27:20

old as hell? What was it I

27:26

avoided? Because you know, like

27:28

I have a lot of families from Chicago, a lot of family

27:30

in Chicago on the South Side and the West Side,

27:33

and and you know, your your parents on the phone,

27:35

you're hearing about everything just happened to your family. And

27:37

also with all those brothers and sisters. I lost

27:39

three brothers and sisters. On one of

27:41

my brothers committed suicide. One of my brothers,

27:44

Alvi got was murdered, and

27:46

my other's sister hit by a car some

27:49

cop running from

27:51

a kid, uh a kid running

27:53

from a copy this car or kill my sister at permanent

27:55

brain damage. It when you see trauma

27:58

like that, you know, and you've My

28:00

father would say to me all the time. He was like, if

28:02

you see somebody um when

28:04

my brother killed himself because he couldn't get off dope.

28:07

So my father was saying, if you see somebody shooting

28:09

the gun and wrapid rapid fire, what

28:12

you're gonna do? At this point, I was so young,

28:14

I don't even know what rapp it men. And

28:16

I said, I'm gonna turn around and go the other

28:18

way. That's what I'm talking about. He was

28:20

just so frustrated. And he also

28:22

said, if you know, when you go to jail, it's

28:25

a very difficult thing. Down there is a system.

28:27

It's hard to understand. And you know,

28:29

so when I do know one thing, they

28:31

give you one phone call. So I

28:34

if you go to jail, I think you should call

28:36

somebody to understand that system because I don't know anything

28:38

about it. And that's what KEPT mean, I'm

28:44

not coming for you. And my father wasn't

28:46

only want to carry a pocket full of money,

28:48

a water full of money. So with

28:50

that, and and how much I love music, I will

28:53

I'll say that you know instrumentation

28:55

musicians like earth wind and Fire, and you

28:58

know even like the mom was, the pop

29:00

was all the music I used here in Berkeley and San Francisco,

29:02

and the hippie stuff that I used to here

29:05

in all the gospel. It really saved my life. So

29:07

when I when I run into people like Rest

29:09

in Peace, like Maurice White, and I see Verdine

29:11

and those guys, I just tell them you basically

29:14

saved my life about making great music because

29:16

it kept me in my room making

29:18

music, making music. But on the other side, I felt like

29:20

my life was like the the narration

29:22

of the movie City of Gods. Like

29:24

I was with I was like the

29:27

kid with the camera. I

29:29

had a moped and I would ride around

29:31

Oakland. I would witness some murderers because I was everywhere.

29:34

I would see stuff. I would keep going and

29:36

I would be listening to in my headphones and

29:38

my Sony walking in with a cassette. I'll

29:40

be listening to Ronnie run to Russia. Ron didn't

29:43

run to the Russia before It's too late, you

29:46

know, But that nobody knew what I'd be listening

29:48

to. And um so

29:50

between the hood of everybody listening

29:52

to Needy and Funkadelic

29:54

and everything, my neighborhood was listening. My neighborhood

29:57

was big on funkadelic, right, So

30:00

I think the music sort of like you said,

30:03

the street is the street. The streets could be your father

30:06

and your mother. But my father was

30:08

my father, my mother was my mother, and

30:10

music was like my god. Parents. Can

30:13

I have the word, because um,

30:15

I know most parents I know well

30:19

sort of drift towards safety

30:23

more than pursuing

30:25

a dream. So assuming

30:29

that you know you're that

30:31

you were passionate about your your your musical

30:34

pursuits were your parents and like encouraging

30:36

and nurturing on that end, or

30:38

were they just like nah boyd like go to post

30:40

office, get a job.

30:43

Like my mother was like get you fifty years

30:45

in over at the Highland Hospital and

30:47

you're my age, you can retire. Uh.

30:50

My father was a

30:52

little bit um.

30:55

My father could play guitar a little bit. He could see

30:57

my dad kind of seeking like Sam Cook. But

30:59

my dad was just like I used to work

31:01

in you you know, in the parcel for for a minute,

31:04

I had all kind of like I had jobs. I

31:06

was doing landscaping. It was another

31:08

like you couldn't be at my house and and tell somebody you're

31:10

gonna be a start and leave me alone. That ship was

31:12

not gonna lie. So uh,

31:16

I think my father told

31:18

me when I told him I got this gig,

31:21

he just told me said, hey,

31:24

if you want to, if you could, because everybody was

31:26

saying, you know, church people, you're going to here because you're playing

31:28

R and B, and my dad would stay son the

31:32

church KYFG is the same key as

31:34

R, R and B, the same KYRG. If

31:37

you don't, if you want to, if that scares

31:39

you, I got some work for you at it's a naval

31:41

air you know, if you've been come and work

31:43

here. But other than that, I just I

31:45

think I got a job playing

31:48

this gig at this club called Lucky Lion with

31:50

this band. And I told my

31:52

father because I bust my

31:54

fingers at ups, I bust three of my fingers

31:56

on the conveyor belt and then my nails came

31:58

right off. I quit because

32:01

I didn't want to. You know, they

32:03

had these safety working days, and if you're ringing the bell,

32:05

you mess up the whole staff safety

32:07

working days. I tried to hold it for a

32:09

minute, but when the nails came out hit the

32:11

alarm, called my dad and said,

32:13

I got this gig. I wanna do this gig up

32:16

and my dad said, well, don't tell your mom.

32:18

Do not tell your mother. If you need some money,

32:22

call me. And I never had to call

32:24

him because I had those little undred fifty dollar gigs.

32:26

But my mother didn't find out

32:28

that I quit that job until

32:31

she saw me on the Tonys on arseni or Hall

32:33

Wow, And

32:37

what did she say? She

32:40

did? My mother didn't know I could sing. She

32:44

she know, she knew, she saw me kind of thing. Unf

32:47

I mean, but that's not Nobody

32:49

knew I could sing. Nobody in my high school because

32:52

I was singing at home. You don't mess around. But my

32:54

mother didn't realize that I wasn't working

32:56

at you ups until she turned

32:59

to Arsenio on it was Tony Tony an Tony

33:01

and I was all, you know, going

33:03

for it, dog,

33:06

yo, man, you don't even know between

33:10

between your love of pal and that story.

33:13

No one believes me when I tell my dad wanted

33:15

to say that my dad didn't know about the Roots until

33:18

our our second album. They're

33:20

like, yeah, yeah, you

33:22

hide that ship yo, Wow

33:24

hid you can't. It's none of that. Come on, when

33:26

I got a dream or what wowdream?

33:30

What a dream he won

33:33

college and he wasn't having that like just

33:36

hang with that, Tarik. No, you go sa

33:40

that insurance that Tarik believe

33:46

that hold him right. Um,

33:50

around eighties six,

33:53

I know that. Um. You

33:55

know Foster McElroy produced the first Tony

33:57

record. But what was what

33:59

was like the relationship?

34:02

Did you guys have any runnings with like j King

34:06

the club New Vot Click. Yeah.

34:09

Well I lived in Sacramento for after

34:12

I moved out of Oakland. I came back off the tour by

34:14

first tour after the eight my mom had moved to Sacramento.

34:17

I came into my house and it said we moved

34:19

to Sacramento, and now the house I

34:21

bought my mom bought her on house. Everybody think I

34:23

bought my mother house. It was in Jet magazine

34:26

and he bought his MoMA house. My mother here,

34:28

by the damn thing. Good

34:30

night. When you first saw the roots in Sacramento,

34:33

you still living in your mom's house. No,

34:35

No, I had bought a house in Sacramento. I

34:38

followed. I followed her. I lived

34:41

there at the first couple of years.

34:43

I wasn't buying nothing, but I had a toyo. The

34:45

trade here wrapped all from my sister.

34:48

I wasn't buying nothing, but I was very fruble.

34:50

I wasn't. I didn't believe the hype either. They scared

34:52

me so much about being an artist. I

34:55

never really bought into the whole artist thing. Really.

34:57

I kept I kept

35:00

a very low pro but I

35:02

wrote just Me and you and my Mother's in

35:04

my room in my mother's house on an MP and a T

35:07

three accord. And I

35:09

wasn't I wrote that in my room.

35:12

Wow. Yeah, So then I was. I

35:15

just so I didn't run into j King a lot um

35:18

Club New Vau, because he actually spun off

35:20

Danny and Tommy, and Denny and Tommy

35:23

went on to get a production deal with Ed Exstein

35:25

over at um Wing Records, which

35:27

he became the predent president of PolyGram.

35:30

And after that, right, I'm

35:33

Billy ex Stein and x Stein was Ed

35:35

x Stein was R. Clive Davis. After

35:39

that, we never had one. Since I've been pretty

35:41

much on my own, I never had to

35:43

go to I had no connect after that. After that

35:45

was just connecting with artists and just kind of just um

35:48

doing myself. But Danny and

35:50

Tommy was definitely the ones who who

35:53

spun us into making

35:56

songs because we had just left Print and I

35:58

don't know what what happened to us right after that.

36:00

I don't think we had any we

36:03

we didn't have any producer skills or

36:05

any like. We

36:07

knew structure, song structure, but we

36:09

wasn't studying it. We would have came out

36:12

trying to be probably Monserati and somebody if

36:14

it wasn't for those too. One,

36:22

if Prince is offen you an

36:24

opportunity to do something, in

36:27

your mind, it's like, yo, we're about to make it.

36:30

Like not how much courage

36:32

did it take? But obviously

36:34

you gave them a note and

36:37

at one point, like was basically park even

36:39

trying to sign you guys, you

36:41

never got it, never got that far. I was just like

36:43

Sheila was gonna fire us pretty soon because

36:45

she was going on to play on the Signs at the Times

36:47

tour. So

36:50

like Prince will get on the bus, he

36:52

would play. He would

36:54

play Signs at the Times the whole album mark.

36:56

He would he would see

36:59

me in the club and were like he's like, come

37:01

over here, I want to play you something, and then we'll

37:03

walk to the speaker. He would look

37:05

at the DJ and he was like, hold on he like,

37:07

put your head in the speaking, so both of us would

37:09

put our head inside of a folded cabinet

37:12

in like this, and then he'll points to the DJ and

37:15

then he played house Quake. And at

37:17

that point I knew Sheila was

37:19

on our way and we was on our way home. And

37:22

then they put like they put like her

37:24

role manager Roy uh got

37:27

his name at the time. They put McDonald applications

37:29

in our and our bunks on the tour circle

37:35

back again? So wait, circle back

37:37

again, Tony, Tony, Tony, what

37:39

was your circle back with Prince and Sheila? Appreciate

37:44

that I did? I did, I

37:46

did? I said, let

37:48

us sit for a second. I'm sorry. I didn't know. I

37:50

didn't when I considered take the moment

37:53

he walked up with Mickey d applications

37:55

in our bumps. Yeah, because that was

37:57

it, and we were going home because he was

38:00

playing all these hits, you know, offishing

38:03

coffee was like damn. So he took Levin

38:05

Caesar, he took Sheila, and

38:07

he took Bonnie Boy and we were all in the band

38:10

together with Sheila talking about I

38:12

know nothing about like Bonnie came

38:14

from Old correct, Bonnie

38:17

was from Oakland. She was funky.

38:19

I mean she would pick up my basse and showed

38:22

me some funk licks that I didn't know. And yeah,

38:26

so her boyfriend growing up was in

38:28

this band called Windstorm. Right. Her

38:31

boyfriend and back in the day was Rusty

38:34

Allen. Rusty Allen. She

38:37

did that Rusty Allen's uh Larry's

38:39

replacement and family. So

38:42

she knew all that bass stuff from him. So

38:44

she used to show me licks that I

38:46

one day, we're sitting down and I'll show you what she showed

38:48

me. She took my basse in

38:51

the in the back of the buzz and just

38:53

took my basse like give me that. It just started

38:56

like and almost like damn

38:59

like. So yeah, Bonnie was. She

39:01

was a Oakland on the Oakland's Greatest

39:04

she Um. She was a vocal colt.

39:07

She was a keyboard player with Sheila.

39:09

She doubled Sheila vocals on the tour. If

39:12

you listen to Kissing you did, I did. I produced

39:15

for a Puffies group. Total um.

39:17

That that the backgrounds, that's her. That's

39:19

Bonnie Boye. Wow,

39:23

did not know. That's awesome. So

39:26

she was she was. She was.

39:28

She was all that man so that experience. Hey,

39:31

one more quick question. I know

39:33

also know, I know that um around.

39:38

Wait was was Rosie from

39:40

Oakland or was she from l A. I

39:42

don't. I don't know exactly what she's from, but she lived

39:45

in Oakland most of her life. She was

39:47

like she was in that circle

39:49

as well, and didn't come until the

39:51

second draft wouldn't be g but

39:53

I wanted to know if she made her rounds in the local

39:56

Oh, she was like, she had like local

39:58

gigs and everybody play with her. She had

40:01

a I mean, Prince pretty much adopted

40:03

everybody out of Oakland, from Miko Weaver

40:05

to Sheila's first bandakand

40:08

Too. Yeah, bro, everybody

40:10

getting him? Man, Oh,

40:13

everybody Prince used after the Revolution

40:16

was all Oakland based, mostly

40:18

a Latin the next two bands

40:20

obviously. Okay, that makes

40:23

that makes total sense. Okay,

40:25

so circle back now after the McDonald's

40:27

applications are on your bed but you're grown. You're

40:29

right, Tony, Tony, Tony, what's

40:32

the first running the Prince and

40:34

Sheila Eli, now that you have proven

40:36

your stelf to the world, Yeah,

40:39

well, I think, uh, the first one

40:41

was when I wrote this song on my first song called

40:44

Born Out to Know, and I wrote this line said

40:46

for no reason. It's only because I'm a lazy songwriter

40:49

and I just wrote this lyric that said, uh,

40:51

things are getting crazy. I'm not wearing Paisley

40:53

because I was born out to know. So Prince

40:57

must have heard that. Invited me into a show

40:59

in Hamptonsvirginia on the Love

41:01

Sexy tour and he asked me if I wanted

41:03

to come on stage, and I'm like, yeah,

41:06

sure. So I come on stage and he said, you want

41:08

to come up and play basketball. So we're just shooting basketball

41:10

on the court. He's shooting around and then

41:12

he goes Then it gets to Mike and he goes

41:15

out, here's a little boy who made

41:17

the pays the rhyme. And I'm like, damn, he

41:19

heard that, and so

41:23

right, boy, that's

41:25

where I was. I

41:28

was at boy now, But to him, here's

41:30

a little boy who made the pays and rhyme. And I'm like

41:33

wow. So he gives me the microphone.

41:36

He leaves me on the stage. Now

41:38

this is Pat and I'm like, well, I've

41:40

got a couple of band members up there. I'm like, I don't know

41:43

what to do, like you know, so I started

41:45

singing Heylo Walter and

41:47

the crowd, and she loves on drums, Bonny

41:49

and everybody. And this time Prince had

41:51

from what I heard, princes never really invited people

41:54

on the stage for that, No Leanney,

41:56

nobody, and he invited me on the

41:58

stage. And so everybody in the band that

42:01

knew me, they was all crying, and I'm like, why

42:03

are they crying Because they were saying because

42:05

he was being so nice to me. But he always

42:07

been really, really really nice to me. He always

42:10

like invited me out to dinner in Japan.

42:12

You wanna go, you wanna get something to eat, You

42:14

want to go do this. You need some girls, you need

42:16

some models. He was always like that

42:18

to me. Um, it

42:20

was weird because nothing about Princess when

42:23

Um, when when I was gonna be

42:25

in Madhouse, he told me, he told Levi to

42:27

tell me to go listen to the Chamber Brothers. I

42:30

never heard of the Chamber Brothers. So when I

42:32

got back home off the tour, after I decided not

42:35

to go back with friends like

42:37

the Prince thing never came to a few fuishtion

42:39

like people thought, but I remember him

42:41

saying I should listen to the Chamber Brothers. So

42:43

I went to this place called Leopold's in Berkeley,

42:46

and I bought every Chamber

42:48

Brothers album there was and

42:51

when I listened to it, they had a son called

42:54

the Spiritual Negro Spiritual called Wade in the Water

42:57

and they it was so dark and how they did it. And my first

43:00

single ever what the Tony's was hey

43:02

little Walter. Yeah right,

43:08

so Prince was like, uh kind

43:10

of responsible for giving me a little light on that,

43:13

which became it Tony's first

43:15

ever ever single hit song and

43:18

Sindbad's first video appearance. That's

43:22

right. Wait, I just want to put

43:24

it in perspective because a little

43:26

confused. Yeah, the way that the Love

43:28

Sex Tour was set up was Prince

43:31

also had a basketball court on the

43:33

stage. Stage it

43:35

was it was the show was in the round. I mean like

43:38

his last rounce of shows worth so it

43:40

was like an elaborate It was probably his most expensive

43:43

setup. So yeah,

43:47

uh wait, speaking of which, speaking

43:49

of who the song

43:52

to six to one five, especially

44:00

the pre internet, whose

44:02

idea was that was

44:05

in mine? Was that your

44:07

brother? All right? First of all, can you explain

44:10

because I feel like the songs that your

44:12

brother produces sounds

44:15

the way that you guys work like, is

44:17

there an alpha for the person that

44:19

brings the song to

44:22

to the forefront or does

44:25

he just work on a song by himself and you work

44:27

on a song by yourself and you just figure like, Okay,

44:30

well here's our tony album or

44:32

how does that work? And then in the

44:34

later albums it was really exactly what you

44:36

said. And the other one maybe the second

44:39

album around. The first album was

44:41

mainly you know, Danny and Tommy and us,

44:44

but the first single, like Little Walter was just

44:46

me, uh, Danny

44:49

and Tommy, those guys we

44:51

got our first song. They didn't even show

44:53

up to the studio at all, so

44:55

um for the first song. And so but

44:58

Dwayne, Dwayne will come up songs

45:00

at home. He will he'll

45:03

come in and will get together and figure him

45:05

out. But he will come up with a title like two

45:07

six one point five that's actually a peno

45:09

call for messing with. Yes,

45:15

you know that's that's that's

45:17

crazy. You're the only one everybody

45:20

we know who knows that.

45:22

I had to ask you, how

45:26

would he know that? Should

45:28

I ask that? I didn't mean, I

45:30

don't think I think I

45:33

think he was At the time, he had dated a younger

45:35

lady he was his friend, and

45:37

um, I think her auntie was an

45:39

attorney. She was,

45:42

but she was pretty much a fast as one

45:44

of the fast as little girls who

45:46

was like, you know, smart, they're really smart,

45:49

and was just like, you know, this is like a two six

45:51

one point five, and so like

45:53

that's the song. And so he

45:55

wrote a song about it, and we sort of took it from

45:57

that. People, let me tell you about

46:00

a best friend. He's the

46:02

one first in and look

46:04

and I always I always love that show

46:07

as a kid. So I added that part

46:09

the vamp of the song, and

46:12

um, yeah, I just yeah, that's the way and

46:14

answer you a question. Yeah, I was gonna say

46:16

in an interview, you guys wants to describe yourself,

46:19

you said that you were seventy yourselves

46:24

the time and then ten percent the

46:26

monkeys. That

46:30

that was the way. I had nothing to do with

46:32

any of that, the monkey. But

46:35

the thing the thing is, though, I mean I understood

46:37

the monkey's reference. Mind

46:39

you, he said it on Soulturing, so like that

46:42

would have thrown everyone off, but I

46:46

got it that you guys

46:48

like humor the time.

46:50

The time definitely showed that humor because

46:53

we was none of that.

46:56

If I could just clear. If I could just say

46:58

who we were, I

47:00

would say we were We

47:03

were like everything that the

47:05

Oakland but Oakland gave us, and

47:08

we were a bit of trying to be like an earth

47:10

Wind and Fire and the Commodore's And

47:13

like my brother used to singing like this song called

47:15

Hello Sunshine, Hello sun

47:18

Shine. Dwayne was that.

47:21

Dwayne was more like the Pbow Bryson who

47:23

played guitar. We were a little bit of We were a little

47:25

bit of the Isley Brothers, a little bit of

47:27

earth Wind and Fire in the Commodores, and we

47:30

we were like a funk band. We were more

47:32

like a brick. I

47:34

think that's who we were. I think doing Dwayne

47:37

would say things that he thought sounded great on TV.

47:39

I mean, I mean because

47:44

you guys had you guys were funny.

47:47

You guys showed humor in like

47:49

your pop culture references and all that stuff

47:52

that the wrong isn't

47:55

the wrong kid? Yeah,

47:57

I mean, but for me, I was always trying to be

47:59

honestly. For me, I was only

48:01

trying to I was more of a hip hop East

48:04

Coast hip hop head, so I

48:06

was always trying to find out how why

48:10

was those drums so dirty and hip hop, and

48:12

our drums were so clean. So my

48:15

whole quest was to find

48:17

out how to you to get dirty drums

48:19

on my music. And how I found out

48:21

was I was I s ice Cube on our first

48:24

tour and because we toured

48:26

in w as

48:30

it was, it was it was crazy because there were no

48:33

other bands, and I think they needed us on the

48:35

tour because it was for insurance

48:37

reasons. It

48:41

wasn't you know, and

48:43

it was for insurance reasons. Nobody

48:46

told me that. I had to figure that out. But anyway,

48:48

I was hanging out ice Cube and he told me that the

48:51

reason why drums sound like that, it's these It's

48:54

called break beats, and you could get up.

48:56

You could get these records from like forty five kings

48:58

from the Swap Meat to the Swap

49:01

Meet, and I bought every

49:03

break beat and that's when I started hearing

49:05

the meters and that's the music I really love.

49:08

And then hip hop was like tried

49:10

and everybody was sampling Slide

49:13

and the songs that I like, and I was like, that's

49:16

what I'm gonna get into was more of

49:18

that, and then I try to marry the both. So

49:20

what was that project that came after that,

49:22

after you had that conversation with I c me, you went out and brought

49:24

all that stuff. What was the Tony Tony proct? So

49:29

no revival? I

49:31

was gonna say, what lessons did you learn, assuming

49:33

that you guys took the lead on it, what

49:37

lessons did you learn on revival

49:40

um that you didn't know on

49:43

the Who record? And

49:46

how did you break to Danny and Tommy?

49:48

Because I mean the Who record was a hit. I mean, you

49:50

guys have three hits on it, So

49:53

what's the like are you talking to Ed x Stein

49:55

saying like, look, I think we could do this on our own. Let

49:58

us I think we just said

50:00

that we wanted to do it on our own. I don't know if we knew

50:02

what the hell we were doing it all. We were definitely

50:05

you know, you know, yeah, I'll give kudos

50:07

to add because he let

50:09

us actually do it. But we've

50:12

we've never had to end our person nowhere

50:14

near our rooms ever. We

50:17

just we just spent too much money figuring out

50:19

on that second album. I think we rented

50:21

a Sinclavera for like two hundred

50:23

fifty dollars for the whole time,

50:26

So we got ripped off on that. So that's what I learned,

50:29

uh on how not to spend money

50:31

on something you didn't really need about

50:34

to say that, y'all even use it on that album, were

50:37

using on the whole album. That's why it sounds

50:39

so clean, like

50:41

whatever you want to it's like, so it

50:44

sounds like crisp. We

50:46

just we just interviewed Pat mcfenny, who

50:48

also, like you know, he's

50:50

the think King. Yes,

50:53

exactly. So he was explaining, like the

50:55

early stages of that was like very expensive

50:57

to operate when

51:00

we looked at it. We looked at the budget and I was like, okay,

51:02

we'll never do that. Also,

51:05

I knew that, Um, you guys worked

51:07

with Keith Crouch on that album as

51:10

well. He Keith, Yeah, Keith played um.

51:14

He's played This is a funny story. Keith. Keith

51:16

played um, he played

51:18

He played bass synthesizer on maybe

51:20

one of the songs he tore with us. He didn't

51:22

really he played on those with the days I think

51:25

okay, um, but so and

51:27

so me and Keith got into a little altercation

51:29

over this girl like when it was funny.

51:32

So right after he played almos So when I did Tony's

51:34

in the wrong key. I introduced

51:37

everybody who

51:39

played with us. He heard it. His name

51:41

used to be on it. But when it got to his

51:43

name, I said, and we had

51:45

this one man and his name is and his name

51:48

and his name is So

51:55

and you know Betty.

52:00

So we're really cool. We're really cool. He told

52:03

me. A long time ago, he said, bro, I was in

52:05

the room with all my friends, and

52:07

he said, I was listing the record and said, by

52:09

the name of I

52:16

was petty those days. I was very petty. Oh

52:18

man, I can't believe

52:21

that ship. So you got the game? Say

52:23

it again? Did you get to PS five?

52:26

Just wait,

52:28

Rol? You see him a PlayStation? Is that? What's going on?

52:31

Right? No, you don't want to answer that question, Raphael.

52:33

You want to finish the interview.

52:37

Oh, okay, your

52:39

gamer? I am

52:41

now, Yes, I was an ex

52:43

gamer. I thought I got out the game, and then

52:45

when I got this, uh my,

52:48

my entire staff was like, yo, man, your

52:50

life is about to change. I'm afraid you open it.

52:53

The box is blacked out, Yes

52:56

it is. Can we see it? He want? Can we see

52:58

it? Yes? Blackouts?

53:01

My game company is called il Phonic, and I've

53:03

never really questioning. He

53:07

was like, what is this? So I sent

53:10

him a game to say, you

53:12

know, we got a game called r K getting. It's

53:14

me and my engineer. We started a game company

53:17

called il Phonic and I'm a nas is

53:19

one of my favorite m sees. So I called it Illphonic

53:21

after Ilmatic and um

53:24

yeah, so we it's a guy in

53:27

the world again. Thirteen

53:30

years of uh so, my partner Chuck

53:32

brun Gard, we started the game. We

53:34

started this game coming together because we

53:37

were finding the heart of the music industry to like,

53:39

even we make records like record industry, people wouldn't

53:42

even let us makes our own records for other people

53:44

that we produced. So I came up

53:46

with another game, a game that

53:48

we used to laugh about called Ghetto Golf because they wouldn't

53:50

let me in the fighting game on Russell Simmons

53:52

label. I knew I could never be on the game. It

53:54

was an RB, it was a rap game. So

53:57

we started this coming. We

54:00

started this company back then and we split

54:02

up to start the game. He moved

54:04

to Denver. We started at my studio and

54:06

like after thirteen years, we did Predator Friday

54:09

the thirteen and doing

54:12

really well. And then this is the first year I started

54:15

I said something about it because really, in the gaming

54:17

world, people don't really care about

54:19

you being a musician. They just want to have funny

54:22

you know, video games is about gameplay,

54:24

and um, one of our guys that Steve Wetman, is

54:26

the visual guy who get

54:28

all the styles of music, which is uh,

54:31

you know, like the music is kind of based

54:33

on like if it was a futuristic dealer

54:36

or fifty years from now or like jungle

54:38

funk, and it's a lot of different people who um,

54:42

a lot of different musicians who did I didn't do any music

54:44

in the game. Usually when I talk about the

54:47

video game, people go, oh, you put music

54:49

in the game. I'm like, uh no, No,

54:52

I owned the game company last game.

54:56

Yeah, I just want invested invested in it, and it's

54:58

doing really well. And in Quest is the first

55:01

person that I actually sent a

55:03

personalized lacked out.

55:08

It's a multiplayer Yeah,

55:12

it's a multiplayer game. Um

55:16

um, you could play, you

55:18

can play, you could play it in the configuration on

55:20

one on one, you could do the way. But it's a quroberative

55:23

multiplayer game. If you know anything about games, and

55:26

we just really, uh, I just want

55:29

to get into this world because I just felt I found

55:31

it kind of hard beauty in the music injury

55:33

so clicky, you know what I mean? Like

55:35

I said, I haven't had a goal to person since Edex

55:38

time. So I said, you know what, the

55:40

way the way the music industry is now with streaming.

55:43

You know, my music is not a game, and

55:45

in games they stream, so I was figured

55:47

I should get into something where streaming was gonna be

55:49

very popular. Game. So how many games you got

55:51

in game? Like you can go? How many games you got out Friday

55:55

the thirteen, the last one in Predator and be working

55:57

on Ghostbusters right now? And RK

56:00

in his art right now it's it's

56:02

an Epics store in two thousand and twenty

56:04

two. It's gonna be a lot more platforms

56:06

and um a

56:08

lot more platforms than just PS five, But right now

56:11

was the Epics Store. On PS five,

56:14

I was game, what games do you play? Like? What some

56:16

of your games that you just play to

56:18

be a game? I could play Caller do you a little

56:20

bit a lot? But I'm really I'm really like

56:22

a sports junkie, like I'm a statement man two

56:25

K something like people like to play

56:31

nice my son, my son? They be

56:33

on two K he got new when he's been

56:35

killing it, does he play

56:39

he plays two K he's on he's on two K.

56:41

I mean he was you know, like all the kids

56:43

when he was on Fortnite, you know heavy when that

56:45

was that was popular. But he's more

56:47

of a two k uh guy. I'm

56:49

more of I do first I could do first

56:51

person shooter, but I'm more so like you

56:54

know, Resident Evil survival horror,

56:56

like I'm in the story type ship. You know what. Okay,

56:58

yeah, that's what this is. This is check

57:01

it out. I

57:03

gotta P five too, I gotta P five. But

57:05

I want to say to question, congratulations

57:08

on on the documentary. I must

57:10

have watched it like seven times on my couch. And

57:12

so you don't think you're about to leave a maror he thinks

57:14

he's satting down like he's thinking about the clothes. I'm

57:17

not sure. I just want to make sure that

57:19

I said that because when that comes

57:21

up in my queue, like, I

57:24

get chills watching

57:27

the Fifth Dimensions. I've never

57:29

seen the move, so to watch it come

57:31

to life and to know that that happened,

57:34

and to know, like I

57:36

mean, people that need they

57:38

were black. I mean, there's so much question is always

57:41

passing out history like I'm

57:44

definitely using it for my next project because yeah,

57:48

oh wow, yes you know what he

57:50

told me his daughter to me, Yeah,

57:53

that's amazing. I shall be calling

57:55

you. What

58:01

was how not? How or why?

58:03

What was the process? How

58:05

was Lisa Bonne the deciding

58:08

factor in directing uh the California

58:10

video? M hm for

58:13

never end, A lot of people turned the treatments.

58:16

She just had the best. She had the best treatment,

58:18

honestly, And we were always trying to we

58:20

were always trying to be different.

58:23

At the same time, we didn't want to. We

58:27

didn't want to out our our the audience that

58:29

we gained, right, but we felt like we

58:32

could gain a new audience

58:34

and we could. You know, we felt like Lisa just she

58:36

had to adge, she had to edge on them all

58:39

the interior decorating that that I like,

58:42

Um, she kind of gave me an apartment that I've never

58:44

had at that time, you

58:47

know, um, just at that time, I didn't

58:49

know that she was heavily direct like into

58:51

directing videos or whatever. So she had like a rep

58:53

that said, like open, yeah,

58:56

I guess she did. I don't think she did it too much to

59:00

think she I think she disliked

59:02

the record, and she just offered

59:04

a treatment, and we just chose her to

59:06

to direct. If the

59:08

Prince was about to hire for one

59:12

of the songs on Diamonds Pros, the thing like walk

59:14

don't Walk. Okay,

59:16

whether they shot it, I'm not

59:18

certain, but I believe that she was. I

59:21

don't think they shot it, you know, I mean, Prince

59:23

is the kind of guy that will do a movie and then put it

59:25

away for like forty two

59:28

seconds. But you know, Oh, my boy

59:30

wanted me to ask you, how did you talk Don

59:32

Cornelius into the

59:35

House Party video which I

59:39

think Don does a cameo. Don Cornelius

59:42

has a cameo and the

59:45

I don't know what you come to do? Uh,

59:47

I don't know. I don't think Don is gonna like me

59:50

too much. I don't know, Wait what

59:52

what you do? Don? I

59:54

love we loved, I love Don on me, I said.

59:58

I watched, So I think I found is

1:00:00

that it wasn't that he didn't like me. I

1:00:02

remember doing soult Train one time, and

1:00:05

I just remember all these girls, like

1:00:08

I call it halftime when everybody's taking a break.

1:00:11

First time doing SoulTrain, and you're like, oh, this is Soultrained.

1:00:13

But then when I saw all the girls like feed herding

1:00:15

and eating Kentucky Fried Chicken and half time,

1:00:19

I was like, this ship is kind of cheesy

1:00:21

a little bit, right they feed them

1:00:23

KFC and then um

1:00:26

it was bad, you know. And so

1:00:28

but then we was on there with a new edition, in

1:00:31

a new edition, like they took,

1:00:34

they did one take, they looked at the monitor,

1:00:36

they came back, they did it over. They

1:00:39

did over about four or five times until they

1:00:41

liked it. And Little Rest in Peace

1:00:43

Little Silas was an m c A Records at

1:00:45

the time, and so when we got

1:00:47

up there to our performance, man,

1:00:49

we performed once and they were like, got

1:00:52

it. I'm like,

1:00:54

we don't get to look at the monitor, you

1:00:56

see if we like what I What I realized

1:00:58

is that, you know, our

1:01:01

label probably wasn't spending spending the sponsor

1:01:03

money. It's a nice way to phrase that,

1:01:06

you know. So we were pretty much a one

1:01:09

and done. And when I found out out,

1:01:11

I just I was kind of just a little

1:01:13

disheartening with, you know, the way that I was learning

1:01:16

on the fly how the industry was. So

1:01:18

so when I did get involved, I was done with Soul

1:01:20

Trained. So when I did get involved. Um

1:01:25

yeah, they they they wanted me to do to

1:01:27

perform on Soul Train, and I was like, and

1:01:30

I'm not doing Soul Trained, so

1:01:35

they begged me to do it. So I was like, I

1:01:37

stood outside the paramount until

1:01:40

it was time for me to walk and say, I don't want to be in the dressing

1:01:42

room. I stood outside. I walked

1:01:45

in and I performed and

1:01:47

I walked out. And then um years

1:01:50

later, I was up the street called whitenecka

1:01:52

as it's a little golf, a little driving range,

1:01:55

and I went to this little driving range just to hang out

1:01:57

some balls and Don Canuees

1:01:59

was there just hitting balls

1:02:01

and he just walked up to me

1:02:03

and we had a amazing conversation.

1:02:07

He was just giving me props in Solb'm watching

1:02:10

you. I'll see what you're doing. And he didn't

1:02:13

he he didn like me. But I

1:02:15

was young and I was confused about the politics.

1:02:17

You know what I mean. Nobody, nobody was spinning

1:02:19

on bread with him at my label. You know that

1:02:24

you have dreams of like being on this legacy

1:02:26

show and then you get to see how

1:02:28

the sausage just made and it's

1:02:30

not like how you think it is. And that is disappointing.

1:02:34

Yeah, you know you could be like, you know, like you mean to actually throw

1:02:36

these saucers on the ground and kick him around and then put

1:02:38

him in the bun exactly.

1:02:41

Yeah, Okay, I gotta jump to suns

1:02:44

and Soul. So the first time that I

1:02:46

had I didn't have an interaction

1:02:48

with you. This is weird

1:02:51

enough. We had an audition, uh

1:02:54

with that x Stein and

1:02:56

we were going to sign to PolyGram

1:03:00

H And I went to

1:03:03

I went to some dinner uptown. I

1:03:06

forget where it was. You were

1:03:08

also at this restaurant, and

1:03:13

I can overhear your conversation, and

1:03:18

you were talking about this

1:03:20

tour and you were

1:03:23

telling the craziest stories I've ever heard

1:03:25

in my life. Like I would

1:03:27

think that you were talking about like

1:03:29

like Hammer the God's era

1:03:32

led Zeppelin, and

1:03:34

you weren't talking about You were talking

1:03:36

about touring with Janet

1:03:39

Jackson, now

1:03:42

without you burning

1:03:44

bridges from

1:03:47

one to ten And I'm

1:03:49

not talking about the Tony Tony Tony side of

1:03:51

things for one to

1:03:53

ten. How crazy was that Janet

1:03:56

Jackson tour? It

1:03:59

was a ten that planted a lot of

1:04:01

seeds in my head on like those

1:04:03

things can happen on the route. Yeah,

1:04:06

it was just you know what it's like, you

1:04:08

know, we're of course we were like huge, j I'm gonna

1:04:10

use Michael. I'm a Jackson five fan,

1:04:13

you know. So I grew up with the Brothers, the first black

1:04:16

families, So I mean,

1:04:18

you know, I love Randy, loved to Jackson.

1:04:21

So just to get on the tour and

1:04:23

learning tour, you just learned tour politics right,

1:04:25

and the tour politics were I

1:04:28

took two guys. They were just out of high school,

1:04:30

really had nowhere to live. There were dancers. I

1:04:32

took him on the tour. I met him in Sacramento. I

1:04:34

just moved to San Francisco. Just oh hip hop

1:04:37

world and documental

1:04:39

that I found and I used to play with him freestyle.

1:04:42

You know, I should play bass. Was this thing called sixty

1:04:44

seconds direct MC has come up. It was

1:04:46

based playering the drummer and so

1:04:48

I will meet all these mcs and and it was a

1:04:50

couple of dancers live in my neighborhood. So I

1:04:52

took him on the tour and

1:04:55

Janet people said it was a it

1:04:58

was conflicting with their show with

1:05:00

these two dancers that we had no

1:05:03

I think that Janet had like thirty five

1:05:06

whatever if you look at Pleasure Principle or whatever,

1:05:08

those those videos and she has the whole

1:05:10

real nation. Yeah,

1:05:14

so they told us we had to like get

1:05:17

rid of the dances. What right

1:05:20

her At the time, her husband was his name was Renee.

1:05:24

He kind of walked in and said, you know, Janet

1:05:26

thinks it's in conflict with her. And I

1:05:29

was like, man, look, we got

1:05:31

two dancers. If

1:05:33

that's I'm

1:05:36

leaving, I'm like, I'm like, I'm

1:05:38

not telling them kids. They got to go home. These

1:05:40

two kids are like eighteen

1:05:42

years old, twenty but

1:05:45

no money, you know what I mean. We we only

1:05:47

they only had two sets of two suits to

1:05:49

tour with, I mean, and we had no

1:05:51

lights on the stage and nothing. I mean, you

1:05:53

couldn't even see something that tour. I should tell people

1:05:56

on the radio, if you want to see us, bring a flashlight. And

1:06:02

then we never really met Jannet, and she invited

1:06:05

us on the tour. So I remember I came.

1:06:07

I came to the show once and

1:06:10

my whole band in the row cruise in this big

1:06:13

line and they by

1:06:15

her room and they were all walking to her room.

1:06:18

She was in the front door shaking their hand, and

1:06:20

I just was walking by and I'm like, I'm not standing

1:06:22

in the line and shake her hand. Like

1:06:25

when you go on tour, you supposed to like introduced

1:06:27

to come say hi to the group and say

1:06:29

hey, you invited this. So that

1:06:32

was kind of that for me. And I think I was on the radio

1:06:34

station and I said, you know, from Oakland something.

1:06:37

They asked me, how was it, you know, being you

1:06:39

know, meeting Jenn I was like at this point,

1:06:41

it was We've been on tour a long time. I said, I've never

1:06:43

met her, but I think, you know,

1:06:45

she probably the same girl from Good Times

1:06:48

Penny, you

1:06:50

know. Yeah, so you know, I had

1:06:53

jokes, but you know, we we

1:06:55

love Janet and we mean, I love Jimmy

1:06:57

and Terry, and it was, you know,

1:06:59

we well it was to our support. We're only making

1:07:01

like three thousand dollars a night, so

1:07:04

we had to pay for our tour bus. And then like

1:07:06

what happened was Michael started

1:07:09

that Michael thing has started to happen. So some

1:07:11

shows we will get to and it

1:07:13

would be tours will be canceled. And

1:07:16

instead of somebody calling us and

1:07:18

saying the show is canceled, we

1:07:20

will find out like the fans. So

1:07:22

we still have to pay the crew the buses.

1:07:25

And it happened like three or four times. I

1:07:27

think she was kind of helping Michael move

1:07:29

around, which we understand that, but

1:07:32

we we didn't know, so she couldn't tell

1:07:34

us right. So but I said, if

1:07:36

it happens again, I'm going home.

1:07:38

So I left in Philly the night

1:07:40

he got canceled. In Philly. Yes,

1:07:43

well that was my last night. I

1:07:45

went to the I took I told the bus to take me to

1:07:47

the airport, and then

1:07:49

they hired many conditions a

1:07:53

nice parallel move. Okay,

1:07:58

I was gonna ask you they did

1:08:00

a makeup show and you guys weren't

1:08:02

the opener. And I was so disappointed and wanted

1:08:04

to know what happened.

1:08:07

What happened? So

1:08:10

needless to say, you are the best person to tour

1:08:12

with because you know what the worst is like. You

1:08:15

know what the worst is like. Is I I treat people

1:08:17

people toured us. I

1:08:19

mean I treat people like kings. Because

1:08:21

the first tour that Tony's ever did was really

1:08:24

uh with the Rare Rocks.

1:08:26

We opened up for Earth Wind and Fire when more Rese

1:08:28

White was in the group, and they

1:08:31

wanted a band that was more of like a track day

1:08:33

band because since we had to set up, we couldn't

1:08:35

do as many shows within and Fire. But

1:08:37

when we did play with them more reach White

1:08:39

brought us to the back of the room and said, Hey,

1:08:42

I love you guys. Whenever

1:08:44

you need you can have asked

1:08:46

for it, you got it. However much time you need,

1:08:49

you got it. And that's how we treated

1:08:51

people when we Uh, I think Joe opened

1:08:53

up for us and my and my tour manager was get

1:08:55

off the stage. I've

1:08:58

walked in and saw that. I walked right

1:09:00

in the middle of them and said, Joe, take

1:09:02

as much time as you want, will be

1:09:04

in the dress room. When you're done, you

1:09:06

come tell us and

1:09:09

so yeah, so I mean we just

1:09:11

told with Bobby Brown, Bobby Brown is just unplugged

1:09:13

our instruments. Well, right,

1:09:20

we when we I love Bobby to this day, I see

1:09:23

we like this. But Bobby used to come and be just like

1:09:26

and just at take the big socket and just unplug

1:09:28

it. We up there just to ah

1:09:34

damn. But now that was like

1:09:36

how tour was. Tour was like R

1:09:38

and b was kind of ghost back in the day. Okay,

1:09:44

I will say for me, Sons a Soul

1:09:47

like every person that every musician

1:09:49

has, like that one the album

1:09:52

that's like they're they're saving grace. There's

1:09:54

in m sort of thing,

1:09:58

and you know, the just

1:10:00

during the time and which like we

1:10:02

were searching for a deal. I mean we were traveling

1:10:04

like the flint Stones inside of a beat

1:10:07

up two hundred dollars station wagon with

1:10:09

no floorboard in the back, like we have to

1:10:12

elevate our feet in the air to not hit the

1:10:14

ground, like traveling

1:10:16

like the Middle Passage, and like you

1:10:19

know, just that whole period of like will

1:10:21

we get a deal? Will we not get a deal? And

1:10:24

living in poverty and all, and like just

1:10:27

listening to that record like man,

1:10:29

one day I'm gonna

1:10:32

play music like this and front audiences and

1:10:34

like I don't know, like Sons of Soul wound

1:10:36

up being that record from me. Yeah,

1:10:40

that was the one for me too, yea. And

1:10:43

I know that your your relationship with

1:10:47

which he really solidified

1:10:49

with that record, assuming that he assisted

1:10:52

on drums on like Tony's

1:10:55

a long key and all that stuff. I mean the

1:10:57

drums are definitely boombastic and loud like

1:10:59

that just during that time

1:11:01

period how are you guys uh

1:11:05

connecting as a group, Like,

1:11:07

how are decisions made? How are you

1:11:11

know? Is it every man like gets an equal

1:11:13

vote or that sort of thing, or is it

1:11:15

like you're starting to see the

1:11:17

the kind of uh seems

1:11:19

starting to break. Well,

1:11:22

I don't think. I think we were just I

1:11:25

think we were like so happy

1:11:28

to be on. I think my brother Dwayne

1:11:31

is more of the person who was in search

1:11:33

of a deal more than any of us. He was a couple of years

1:11:35

older. Um, but once we

1:11:37

got in, you know, Duwayne was this party time

1:11:39

and I was more in a state

1:11:41

of mind like we could

1:11:44

fall off. This is not promised to us,

1:11:46

and uh, I was just looking

1:11:48

at things that our lives. I think I became

1:11:51

pretty much the the person that

1:11:53

was steering the boat. But I had a wall of people

1:11:55

behind me that was very talented. I always felt

1:11:57

like if you know, you're the best person in the room and

1:12:00

you're in the wrong room, and um,

1:12:02

I had a lot of great musicians around me that

1:12:04

could, you know, do the things that I

1:12:06

needed to do to make the records

1:12:09

that I wanted to make. Now, did I know that people are gonna

1:12:11

like those records? No? I didn't

1:12:13

have a clue about record sales or number

1:12:15

one. I never cared about Billboard.

1:12:18

I never looked at bill Board for number

1:12:20

one record. I was really trying to impress

1:12:22

the people before me. I just really wanted you

1:12:25

know, you know, hip hop, hip hop artists.

1:12:28

You know. I was really big on making

1:12:30

hip hop people like my records, all

1:12:33

the records like we don't like and

1:12:36

we don't know. I was like, oh, you're gonna like this. R and B. I

1:12:38

had a chip on my shoulder about that and

1:12:41

was my joint on that record. It was just to break be fun. That

1:12:44

was my one. Yeah, I

1:12:46

was gonna say that. Yeah, Like I was definitely

1:12:50

anti R and B and ninety two, Like

1:12:52

I just thoughted was like warded down in corner

1:12:54

understill why And

1:12:56

I heard it and

1:12:58

if you know, first I was like front like Tony, Tony

1:13:01

got a record like whatever, And

1:13:03

I heard and I was like, wait a minute, Like there's

1:13:06

break beats and things that I like, like if

1:13:08

a trap called Quest made music, this

1:13:11

is what it would be. And

1:13:13

yeah, and that's that's that's because

1:13:17

Yeah, it's like it's like the beginning seeds

1:13:19

of that's that's the thing I

1:13:22

want to ask you were you were

1:13:24

you are aware what the state

1:13:26

of emergency was for

1:13:29

the Black Band, because technically Tony

1:13:32

Tony Tony is probably either

1:13:35

the last pure

1:13:39

soul group you know, And

1:13:41

that's where you mentioned Chambers Brothers, because I

1:13:43

was trying to find a band that

1:13:46

was self contained, not led by someone not

1:13:48

slying the family stone, not jeans around the famale. But

1:13:52

okay, man out,

1:13:56

Okay, So the last batch between

1:14:00

main condition and

1:14:02

and Tony Tony to like you guys are are the

1:14:04

last it's it's it's endangered

1:14:06

species. You

1:14:08

were you guys even aware that there

1:14:11

was like you guys were about

1:14:13

to be a novelty. I mean ten years later,

1:14:15

even the idea of groups being together

1:14:18

would be like

1:14:21

a thing like to

1:14:23

to even collaborate

1:14:25

with people in a unit. Were

1:14:28

even aware of the time that time

1:14:30

is running out for the Black Band? Um,

1:14:33

I don't think we were aware of it. I think we

1:14:36

we just we were so blinded by

1:14:38

what happened before us, and

1:14:40

um we were so

1:14:42

stuck in the past and

1:14:45

living in the future at the same time. Because we loved hip

1:14:47

hop, we love what was going on, but we

1:14:49

always thought we were a part of I

1:14:51

always thought I could be a part of it.

1:14:53

Like when I got to New York and I saw rock Him

1:14:56

walking down the street where

1:14:58

I was sitting in a limo or something and getting

1:15:00

ready to do an in store, I

1:15:02

see Eric being rock Him with a crew with dapper

1:15:05

dance, sweat suit tune, and I

1:15:07

was just sitting there like what. So

1:15:10

as soon as I got to New York, man

1:15:12

I was. I broke free to every studio

1:15:14

and found everything I wanted to find. Um

1:15:18

are as, you know, tribe and

1:15:21

um by powers and

1:15:24

different people, different outboard gear for studios,

1:15:26

different you know, needs and

1:15:29

different were you saying, like was the rest of your

1:15:31

band sort of on line

1:15:34

with you? Like, yo, we need to we need

1:15:36

to sound progressive like these people. Now

1:15:39

it was just me. They'll

1:15:41

they'll tell you that too. But everybody playing

1:15:43

a good part, like tim was Timothy

1:15:46

Riley. Christian Riley is like like

1:15:48

slide on the organ on the B three. He's

1:15:52

a drummer, but he's a great Oregon

1:15:54

player. So where he was at, he

1:15:57

wanted to be there, you know, um where

1:15:59

Dwyane was at, he Dwayne

1:16:01

was like a guy who played football his whole life

1:16:03

and was in shape, and then when football was over,

1:16:06

He's like, I'm not working out no more. So

1:16:10

once we got on, Dwayne was like,

1:16:14

we are you know that's it?

1:16:16

And I was like, man,

1:16:18

I don't know if we're really. I've

1:16:21

seen too many groups when I go to record

1:16:23

stores and I'm going through vinyl and all these

1:16:25

groups that I've seen it we don't know about.

1:16:27

We never heard of. I wasn't

1:16:29

really they

1:16:31

thought they were on too, so I was more.

1:16:33

I was more like I knew it was. It

1:16:36

was a novelty. But just because of the tours

1:16:38

that we had to go on, there was no space. I

1:16:40

remember Salt and Pepper wanted us to. We toured

1:16:43

MC Hammer, Candy Man, I

1:16:47

w A and I remember Salton Pepper

1:16:49

was like, pickt the Tony's

1:16:51

off the tour. They got a band to the set changes

1:16:53

too long, you know what I mean. It wasn't

1:16:56

like being nasty towards us, but the

1:16:58

set change had to be. They

1:17:00

didn't like the set change. The

1:17:02

only person the only reason why we stayed on that to us

1:17:04

because Hammer Hammer kept us on

1:17:07

the turk. Can

1:17:13

I ask you all the questions since this is a rare moment, especially

1:17:15

with you and Mirror and Raphael on

1:17:18

the line because I'm translating,

1:17:20

and I always thought in my mind, and now

1:17:22

that you've clarified that you were such a hip hop

1:17:24

head and you had to be you had to be there.

1:17:27

This is the pivotal start of Mirror, right

1:17:29

of what we would call I

1:17:31

mean. So I just want

1:17:33

to stay it out loud because the

1:17:37

father of that, and I hate to term.

1:17:39

I hate to term Neil. So everybody

1:17:44

give me to give me the everybody hate it, But what's the

1:17:46

replace? But

1:17:48

it's like, it's the shortest way to describe

1:17:51

you. Guys. Definitely started something new, Okay,

1:17:54

So I'm gonna kill it. I've

1:17:56

grown past it. I'm not like I used to be

1:17:58

about the word. Let me tell you why

1:18:00

I say it, why I was sending it back to

1:18:02

And I did this album called very

1:18:04

right. On the back I had a schoolstone

1:18:07

it says Neo Soul rest

1:18:09

in peace, right, So I

1:18:11

was all about that. So my thing was Neil.

1:18:14

Like like hip hop was a fresh, great

1:18:17

brand, a great idea, Neil

1:18:20

Soul was more of a budget

1:18:22

that kid R. Massenberg kind of came up

1:18:24

with for Erica Bad and everybody

1:18:26

ever thought about it, and it was like the way to go to a

1:18:29

marketing meeting and say

1:18:31

this group was not the Temptations are

1:18:33

the Slide and it's like new

1:18:35

So it's neo. So when you go to a meeting,

1:18:37

instead of explaining they're not gonna sell

1:18:39

a million, they might do

1:18:42

anywhere from two to three, you just say

1:18:44

for short neo soul. It

1:18:46

had nothing to do about the filling in the music like

1:18:49

hip hop. But

1:18:51

but you do know to the fans it actually

1:18:53

so it might have started that way, but then it kind

1:18:55

of matriculated to fans to something else, to

1:18:57

just something that they could say, that's what it's

1:19:00

can I ask, right,

1:19:02

so what would you have? What

1:19:04

would you have called it? Because it's your ship, so

1:19:07

what would you were called? I

1:19:09

mean it

1:19:12

was a moment. I mean someone

1:19:15

didn't when I did, When I didn't answer

1:19:17

advantage, I was, you know, I was striking

1:19:19

a different thing, a couple of things that didn't really stick,

1:19:21

but I was trying, and I

1:19:24

came out with gospel delic for me, for

1:19:26

my own gospel. Man, it's

1:19:28

gospel delic is mean, there's some truth to it,

1:19:31

and there's the funking the psychedelic in what

1:19:33

I do so I called Mommy is a gospel delic.

1:19:35

There's some truth, there's some funk psychedelic,

1:19:38

that's what I called it. Anything but that, but we

1:19:42

would have been called gospel. But

1:19:46

honestly, look, look, I understand any

1:19:48

group that was under it. I understand because

1:19:50

it was a budget and everybody was getting on. It

1:19:52

was a deal with money behind it, So

1:19:54

there's nothing really wrong with it. It's just to me, it's

1:19:57

a whack ass name. But it's

1:19:59

a beautiful movie. Man, it's a wag name. I

1:20:01

mean, it's great. Groups came out of it, but none

1:20:04

of those artists. I feel like it gave it

1:20:06

gave everybody a clock. But in hip

1:20:08

hop, right, it's forever.

1:20:11

No, it's not backpacker hip hop, that's

1:20:16

forever. I mean, here's the

1:20:18

thing, Like, the reason

1:20:20

why I don't it's so

1:20:22

weird, especially with neo soul, It's

1:20:25

just that everyone in that category

1:20:27

was helping on making

1:20:30

sure that you knew they're not

1:20:33

in that category. And then

1:20:35

it just became funny to me because the thing is, I

1:20:37

didn't know that. I thought I was the only everybody

1:20:40

wants to people nobody

1:20:42

under quote ar umbrella wants

1:20:44

to claim it. I mean, yes, I think

1:20:47

kidar uh,

1:20:49

what do you call it? U copyrighting the

1:20:51

word? Like? And I told him

1:20:53

this. I was like, you ended the genre when

1:20:55

you made a public that you copy wrote the word,

1:20:57

like who who's gonna like?

1:21:00

You just ended your own movement. But the

1:21:03

thing is is like as a guy who shops

1:21:05

at Amiba or

1:21:07

Raspputants or Jerry's records,

1:21:10

you know, I want to know where's the quickest

1:21:12

what like fine, Like

1:21:15

it's an identifier for me, so I know exactly

1:21:17

what section to go to something by the record I want

1:21:19

to and not have to scrounge through thousand

1:21:22

records. But I mean I digress,

1:21:25

like I definitely feel as though

1:21:27

you guys were a part of something.

1:21:30

And you know this, it's not only for this genre.

1:21:32

I remember when Luther and Anita

1:21:34

was scoffing at Nelson George's description

1:21:37

where he called it retro noeuvou. And

1:21:41

you know, people, it's it's

1:21:43

just hard to categorize something or given opinion

1:21:46

on something until like twenty years has passed. But

1:21:49

you know, especially now that thirty

1:21:52

years has passed since that movement, it's

1:21:55

it's and I'm just lazy well,

1:22:00

yeah, you know, I don't know kind of like to say to like

1:22:02

if you listen to so

1:22:05

yeah, yeah.

1:22:07

I mean when you look at music like I look at all

1:22:09

music like this, if it's early

1:22:13

country music like blues, early

1:22:15

Muddy Waters, and you can go you can

1:22:18

go back before people was making

1:22:20

records to beat for Hot Sunny Hawks.

1:22:22

Before you can go back to when it was making

1:22:24

records in the field, in the country, all

1:22:27

the way to now two.

1:22:30

Black music is one music to me,

1:22:34

if you have to categorize it to make money,

1:22:36

to put in the categorize its categories

1:22:38

to differentiate and make money,

1:22:41

but really it's all one. It's

1:22:43

all one music. It's it's because black people

1:22:45

are so creative, but it's all our music

1:22:48

and basketball. We gotta crossover. We do

1:22:51

all these different things so good. So

1:22:53

that's when you listen to music like Trapp now Trapp

1:22:56

is trapped, now you got Drill right,

1:22:59

It's just it's just I feel like we're just it's

1:23:01

all one thing. Like when hip hop came out, I

1:23:04

always wanted to see hip hop get old. I always

1:23:07

want to see the last like

1:23:10

the tribe, the generation before that. I wanted

1:23:12

to know how they were going to react as older men because

1:23:14

I got a chance to see the

1:23:17

Temptations and the Shalamars

1:23:20

and and the whispers get old,

1:23:22

and how do they always want to see how the

1:23:24

coolest cats in the world hip

1:23:27

hop was the coolest. We don't like thorn. I

1:23:29

want to see what they were gonna be like as older

1:23:31

men. And it's so funny to watch when

1:23:34

you see like hip hop casts like talking

1:23:36

about trap artists. That

1:23:39

would have been the way whispers what

1:23:41

I've been talking about somebody rapping,

1:23:43

Like what the hell are you talking about? I don't know, blah blah blah.

1:23:46

Now you hear artists, hip hop artists saying

1:23:48

that about trap artists, And it's just because

1:23:50

now our generation is at PTA

1:23:53

meetings. Let

1:23:56

me just say this too. As a former black radio

1:23:58

person, you should know that neo

1:24:01

soul to a lot of people was rebellious

1:24:04

music, and especially to black radio people,

1:24:07

because this was music that we weren't necessary

1:24:09

allowed to play. Literally, Raphael, I

1:24:11

planned to tell you the story about how I got fired

1:24:13

for interviewing you live on the radio, and I

1:24:15

think that a lot of times.

1:24:17

Yes, y'all don't know,

1:24:24

huh. It

1:24:27

was my pleasure. It was. It was my pleasure.

1:24:29

But understand that like people fought

1:24:31

people like myself, tim Me Bagon and like DJ's

1:24:34

around the country that wasn't it was called

1:24:36

trauma. We was fighting for this ship. When

1:24:38

they when they said to me, yo, I'm a real quick

1:24:40

rock Field. They said to me rock Fails is

1:24:43

doing our music conference and we want you to interview

1:24:45

him and tape it and we're gonna play it back

1:24:47

after we start playing his record. Right, But this

1:24:49

was during the time when you put out the record that was kind of

1:24:51

Stacks inspired, right, and I'm on

1:24:54

the hip hop right,

1:24:57

so I'm like, this is Philadelphi.

1:25:00

Yeah, I

1:25:01

mean you remember because I was drilling

1:25:04

you about Josh Stone and stuff. We had a good time. So

1:25:07

so what's funny is when they said that they was gonna play

1:25:10

this ship back, I was like, that's a lie, because

1:25:12

you're not gonna never play no songs from this record because

1:25:14

they don't fit our format. Right. So

1:25:16

when you walked into the studio live, I

1:25:19

was like, this is fucking Rafael Sad, the

1:25:21

father of this fucking ship. That is

1:25:23

the height. That's the reason that Philadelphia is doing

1:25:25

what it's doing right now. How would I be like to sit

1:25:27

here and lie and do a fake interview with

1:25:29

this person. So we went up live and

1:25:32

a week later they was like, you disobeyed

1:25:35

what I did, which we told you to do. That

1:25:37

was part of the story. So another

1:25:39

funny story about that record when I went to

1:25:42

this radio station in South Carolina

1:25:44

and so the radio guy at the time, he was the regional

1:25:46

guy, was in Atlanta, so he took

1:25:49

me in this radio station. So my whole radio

1:25:51

promo was a fake out with

1:25:54

Colombia. It was all fake, I believe

1:25:56

it. But they had to take

1:25:59

me because of the respect for the records that I

1:26:01

was producing. They didn't just want to let me go,

1:26:03

so they took me on this fake radio run

1:26:05

that I was doing interviews. But nobody

1:26:08

was at the label cared about the records. So

1:26:10

they did tell me. Some of the guys that Columbia

1:26:12

told me just get his record away because streaming

1:26:15

was about to happen, and they didn't. They were spending

1:26:17

money on records and records weren't selling, so

1:26:19

they were confused because like Bruce Springsteen wasn't

1:26:21

selling, None of the records were selling because

1:26:24

it was streaming, right, So I

1:26:27

get in the crop with this guy, and he says, he

1:26:30

said, man, your record

1:26:32

is actually where they spinning that what the

1:26:34

numbers were like was

1:26:36

was high on the record. So he said, he said, he

1:26:38

said because he said, well, they told me,

1:26:40

he said between me Columbia told me just

1:26:43

to take this record out and tell

1:26:45

him it's it's experimental record

1:26:47

and just play it real late at night. So

1:26:50

like, but the record kind of caught fire,

1:26:53

like love that Girl, because people was like listening

1:26:56

to it. And so what happened was Europe

1:26:58

ended up calling France.

1:27:00

Actually France called parents

1:27:03

called they they called uh

1:27:05

Strainger over in Columbia. They said, I don't know about

1:27:08

in the States, but this

1:27:10

is a real record over here. And

1:27:12

so that's when I started playing in

1:27:14

front of like fifteen thousand people by

1:27:17

myself and Europe different

1:27:19

venues. But yeah, the whole record

1:27:21

was like a fake out and

1:27:25

end up being one of my Yeah,

1:27:27

that's that's funny.

1:27:29

I remember that. Wait, all

1:27:32

right, things are coming back to me now that I know

1:27:34

I'll never get to ask you again. I

1:27:37

gotta go back to Sons and Soul for this one question.

1:27:40

All right, So you

1:27:43

worked with a guy who

1:27:46

I had hope for to

1:27:49

be the future. And it's not who you think I'm talking

1:27:51

about. You work with director

1:27:53

Sangi and this

1:27:55

is hot office passed me by

1:27:58

success like black videos,

1:28:00

we've never seen somebody with like Spike Jones

1:28:02

is aesthetic for black videos.

1:28:05

But dog the Pillow

1:28:07

video, how did Homie

1:28:09

talk to you all into doing that video? Naked?

1:28:12

But that wasn't sun That wasn't

1:28:15

That wasn't sund

1:28:19

and leaving. I thought

1:28:21

he did all three of your videos. Okay,

1:28:23

he wouldn't have never done that. That was

1:28:25

who did that? I don't know.

1:28:27

And those the people that're standing up those are

1:28:30

those are not us? That's not us. On the

1:28:32

doubles that spinned around

1:28:34

bloodass neck that

1:28:36

was that wasn't Pillow forgot.

1:28:39

I'm like,

1:28:45

trust me, everybody was drinking. So my my

1:28:47

brother, my brother's thing was this.

1:28:49

This is all Dwayne he was. I'm not I'm

1:28:51

not throwing him under the bus because he stands

1:28:55

by it. He stands by trust me.

1:28:58

My brother has no regrets about nothing

1:29:00

he does. I love

1:29:05

you. Try to do the video.

1:29:08

Oh not in the in the part when the three dudes

1:29:10

are standing together and they spin and

1:29:12

then when you watch them they spend like really

1:29:14

like it looked real bad TV

1:29:19

showing the video and they clouded up all

1:29:21

the private areas. So that's how like it's

1:29:24

like my brother. So my brother

1:29:26

walks in like we like the red hot chili peppers

1:29:28

in his mind, so he's like, he like, this

1:29:32

could be like a real like this

1:29:34

could be like one of those what's

1:29:37

the what's the cartoon? Um George

1:29:39

Clinton the tour bus?

1:29:43

This could be like the Tales of the tour Bus because like you

1:29:45

know when they showed George Clinton, just jump out their kid,

1:29:47

right. So it's

1:29:50

like my brother walked in the room. And my brother walks

1:29:52

in the room and goes, hey, guess what, guys,

1:29:55

he could be the first band into a neked video.

1:29:58

And I was like what So

1:30:02

so this is what I said. I said, Well,

1:30:05

if Tim Tim is a square, was

1:30:07

square this time it's nerd church

1:30:10

boy, church of God in Christ,

1:30:13

I said Tim. I said that Tim

1:30:15

agrees, I'll do it.

1:30:17

It's no way in hell Tim

1:30:19

is agreeing on this. Right. We walk

1:30:22

in the room and said what do you think Tim? Tim

1:30:24

goes, let's do it. Ship

1:30:32

That's how that happened. Wow,

1:30:34

man, man, Yeah,

1:30:36

I had another Sons of Soul question

1:30:39

the interlude don't be bashfood,

1:30:41

don't be Was

1:30:44

that a real hold guy? Oh

1:30:47

no, no, we we we are. Engineer Jerry Brown

1:30:50

took this record out in the middle of Manhattan

1:30:53

and gave this guy some money

1:30:55

and he sang that he brought it back. I was like

1:30:58

that ship

1:31:06

at speaking

1:31:09

when when you spoke of your engineer

1:31:12

helping you develop, were you talking about Jerry

1:31:14

Jerry Brown? Is he still setting up

1:31:16

Christmas lights in the studio? Y'all

1:31:19

gotta know, you know, Jerry Brown is

1:31:22

the first cat, first black cat I've

1:31:25

ever heard say. Yeah, man,

1:31:27

you just gotta find your enerjoy. And for

1:31:29

me, every day is Christmas and

1:31:31

there's no when we did what they

1:31:34

do, it was Christmas

1:31:36

and we did what they do and like we

1:31:38

did it in May,

1:31:41

and he had that he had your studio looking

1:31:43

like Christmas. And then when

1:31:45

he was working with Alicia Keys, same

1:31:47

thing. I walked in and saw this Christmas decorations.

1:31:50

I was like, oh, raphaels Deep must be here because it's

1:31:52

Christmas time. And Jerry came out.

1:31:55

What is what is the deal with Jerry? And as

1:31:57

obsession with every day is Christmas

1:31:59

to him? You know what. I

1:32:02

never knew that's what he was doing until you just said

1:32:04

it. But you're

1:32:09

right, because because the one

1:32:11

thing I do remember about Jerry is this. You

1:32:13

know, he's still around. You know he he makes

1:32:15

a lot of John legends. It's funny.

1:32:17

He makes the John Leston Christmas legend.

1:32:22

Like YO, did Jerry? He's like, yes, he

1:32:24

did. Yeah. So the funny thing

1:32:26

about Jerry. What I remember about Jerry the Moostes.

1:32:29

He talks about when songs in the Kid

1:32:31

of Life came out and

1:32:34

he went and he stood in line and Tower records

1:32:36

on the sinset this long line and

1:32:38

he bought that record and he came

1:32:40

home and Christmas Eve and he played that record,

1:32:44

so he has to think about Christmas. You're right, that

1:32:47

is crazy? Is that? I was asking?

1:32:49

Is that the same? Is it Ali and Jerry? Is it the same?

1:32:52

From Jerry? Not him? Mixed

1:32:55

the group called Climax. He Climax

1:32:57

back in the day. Um

1:33:00

used to be a stud ABC. He

1:33:02

worked at ABC back in the day as an engineer.

1:33:06

FRANTI that Jerry is Jerry Knight

1:33:09

who Jerry Knight Jack

1:33:11

and Jel radio singer? Okay,

1:33:15

I was is that the is that the largest

1:33:18

hit tony believe

1:33:21

it or not, if I had no alluders, if I had

1:33:23

alluded as the highest charting record.

1:33:26

But the biggest record to me is

1:33:28

probably it depends when

1:33:30

you're talking, and that's

1:33:33

me and you was not a that's

1:33:36

my first solo record. Okay, it's

1:33:39

okay only because at

1:33:42

x tein wouldn't let me put my name on the record.

1:33:44

So what really? Yeah?

1:33:46

So yeah, so that record

1:33:48

was just done and my that's that's the

1:33:50

record that was done in Sacramento in my mother's house,

1:33:53

in the room on the teeth on

1:33:55

the teeth three, which I and I

1:33:57

put it out. I gave it it John and the John

1:33:59

Singleton they Polygraham, I shouldn't

1:34:01

say ed, but they said I couldn't use my

1:34:03

arm, I couldn't use my name. So

1:34:06

the second record I did was asked if you

1:34:08

was on higher learning and they told me

1:34:10

I couldn't use my name again, And I

1:34:12

told John Singleton they couldn't use

1:34:15

a song, and John called PolyGram and

1:34:17

said, this record is gonna say rod

1:34:19

fel sadik um. So the

1:34:21

first my first solo record would have been just me and

1:34:23

you. And the funny thing about it

1:34:25

is Uh. That's when I first figured out I

1:34:27

had this pass called Jocko on the

1:34:29

T three, I was

1:34:32

like, I called my godfather James

1:34:34

Levi. I used to play for the drummer for with

1:34:36

Herbie head Uh

1:34:39

the head Hunters, and I called

1:34:41

him almost like who's that? Gave me

1:34:43

a ride home and it took his bass album played

1:34:45

for me when I was like fifteen. He was like Joao

1:34:51

Jaco Jacko played for

1:34:53

me and my mom. He so, I'm

1:34:55

in velvet here in Oakland, James Levi

1:34:58

is my godfather. Paul Jackson all those the

1:35:00

whispers used to come and watch his plague and this band

1:35:02

I was called tick Band. And so I'm

1:35:04

at the house one day and James go, hey,

1:35:07

man, give him a ride home and talk to him and open up

1:35:09

his heads. We got this four fifth y s L convertibly

1:35:12

drive. He stopped buying phone booth, get

1:35:14

on the phone and they take me about ten moles

1:35:16

to my house. He pulls his base out,

1:35:18

he gets on the ports. He plays for me and my mom for like

1:35:20

thirty minutes and talk to me and my mom, which

1:35:23

my mom don't know. My mom wouldn't

1:35:25

know who anybody is in R

1:35:27

and b R nobody so Jazz,

1:35:29

you don't even know that. So when

1:35:32

I and then he leaves, and

1:35:34

then I'm in my house making this record. When

1:35:36

I made that record years later, and

1:35:38

then once I make the record

1:35:41

years later, I called, I said, I've seen this, passee

1:35:43

Jocko. Now I knew all about Jocko. I'm

1:35:45

like I

1:35:48

called James, I said, who was that to gave me a ride home?

1:35:50

Without blinking? He goes, what do

1:35:53

you think it was? With Jocko? Stories? Oh?

1:35:55

God, man, you know how many other

1:35:57

random stories do you have like that? M

1:36:01

Ladies and gentlemen. I know you hate when

1:36:03

my voice comes on and tells you you gotta come

1:36:05

back next week. But you know good and well

1:36:08

that we weren't going to give you the whole Angelotta

1:36:11

this one episode. So make sure you come

1:36:13

back next week when

1:36:15

Rathiolsa Dick talks to you know, Layah

1:36:19

Sugar, Steve and Fon Tikolo

1:36:21

and pay filled myself about

1:36:24

his solo work, about touring,

1:36:26

about songwriting, about movie scoring,

1:36:29

about bacon, yes Bacon,

1:36:32

and he drops a really

1:36:34

awesome exclusive Jim,

1:36:38

So next week quest Love Supreme,

1:36:40

I will see you guys there much

1:36:49

Love Supreme is a production of I Heart

1:36:51

Cupredio. For

1:36:56

more podcasts for my heart Radio, visit the

1:36:58

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1:37:00

or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.