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0:30

Shouldn't you be at work?

0:34

When the seagulls follow the trawler,

0:36

it's because they think sardines

0:38

will be strong into the sea. I

0:41

will love it if we beat them. Love it.

0:46

I'll have a low-fat pizza or something like that, or

0:48

a few biscuits and some milk on a Sunday. And

0:50

you can pair up if you like, and you can

0:52

fucking pick someone else to help you, and you can bring your fucking

0:54

dinner. Oh,

0:55

a magnificent goal from Darren Huckabee!

0:59

Now, you know him better than anybody probably. Do you back

1:01

him to score quickly, yes or no?

1:03

Yes. Oh, he has to! No!

1:13

Hello, welcome to Quickly Kevin, will he score? I'm

1:15

Chris Scarwick, recording this early morning. Michael is

1:17

not up yet, but never mind, because this

1:19

interview is going to be a bit different. According to this early morning,

1:22

Michael is not up yet, but never mind, because

1:24

this intro comes courtesy of Matt Green. Hey y'all,

1:27

Fitz Hall, Ivo Grahams here. Hello,

1:29

old one-size. Do you remember that? Remember that nickname?

1:32

Yes, fantastic. I think,

1:35

weirdly, it came to me second

1:37

or third hand, or maybe someone was specifically trying

1:39

to wind me up. The first

1:41

I got was I was told that

1:44

Palace had two centre defenders

1:46

called One Sires

1:49

and Fitz Hall. I was

1:53

like, what an unbelievable coincidence.

1:55

Didn't they sign One Sires to play with Fitz

1:57

Hall?

1:59

And whoever told me was like, yeah, yeah,

2:02

you know, you can't resist that kind of thing. Absolutely

2:06

pathetic. You could have told me anything

2:08

in 2005. Yes,

2:11

so on the show today, Mick McCarthy.

2:15

I tell you what, I'm even I'm tense saying those words.

2:18

There's a steeliness to him, as we will find

2:20

out. And I'm not quite over it.

2:22

Let's not forget, Chris, I'm, you know, I'm still

2:24

fairly new in this chair. You know, baptism

2:27

of what is not baptism, my baptism was Jason

2:29

McAtear. That wasn't a baptism

2:31

of fire. That was a baptism of cool,

2:34

fresh water. Straight

2:37

from the Middle East. Bay

2:40

in sports is finest mineral water.

2:44

But this is a this is a confirmation of fire.

2:46

And I was I was intimidated by big by big

2:48

Mick. And I didn't get to

2:51

ask him some of the things I did to dream

2:53

of asking him. Well, let's find out

2:55

about that in a minute. But first, why don't we have a little

2:57

bit of correspondence? I'm

3:01

Jim Rosenthal, and this is the

3:04

electronic postcard. You've

3:06

got mail. All right, let's

3:08

begin with this courtesy of Mark

3:10

Ferrell. This is great stuff. The

3:12

speculation can end, he says. Radio

3:14

Five Live doing a tribute to Bill

3:16

Kenwright last week. Sadly

3:19

passed away. Interviewing Steve Bruce.

3:21

And in the interview, Kelly Cakes quizzes

3:24

him about memories he shares of Bill Kenwright.

3:27

And Steve Bruce jokingly replies that

3:29

Bill had asked about the theatrical rights

3:31

to these books I wrote about 20 years

3:34

ago. No. Oh,

3:37

wow. I mean,

3:40

I am this is not the first time that

3:42

I've thought I'm not being

3:45

responsible in my duties as

3:47

a literary correspondent for Quickly Care. I've

3:50

got to be just having a Google alert for

3:52

Steve Bruce set up whenever, particularly

3:55

now that he's not under the stress of top

3:57

flight management, whenever he's making a public. experience.

4:01

If he's saying this kind of stuff, we

4:04

can begin to dream again. Let's

4:07

have a listen. This next email comes courtesy of

4:09

Gareth Irwin. This

4:11

is your obsessive France, aren't you, Ivo? We

4:13

all know this. Saw the t-shirt at Glastonbury.

4:16

Yes, I think I've got my t-shirt somewhere in this

4:18

room. Not the t-shirt I'm currently wearing,

4:20

which has a t-shirt of Liam Payne at the

4:22

hospital. Just

4:26

as good. Gareth

4:29

says this. During the 1998 World Cup, England's

4:31

second group going against Romania. Romania

4:33

will 1-0 up when Michael Owen scores the equaliser

4:35

on 81 minutes. Kevin is doing the commentary,

4:38

then says there's only one team who's going

4:40

to win it now, and that's England. Five minutes

4:42

later, Dan Patresco scores the winner for Romania.

4:45

Firstly, we don't talk

4:47

about that line of commentary from Kevin Keegan

4:49

because he actually had two shocking

4:52

lines of commentary in the one tournament. Quickly,

4:54

Kevin Willy scored, yes, oh,

4:57

and then this one, which is arguably

4:59

worse. There's only one team going to win it

5:01

now. Five minutes later, Dan Patresco getting

5:04

the winner. I remember being very disappointed by that

5:06

Romania defeat, which obviously

5:08

probably did prove quite critical because if we'd won the group,

5:11

we wouldn't have got Argentina, although

5:14

I can't map out the rest of the tournament in my head, and

5:16

you miss it. You've got to let it go. This

5:19

is the thrust of Gareth's email. If we

5:21

had drawn that game, we would have topped the group.

5:24

Could we have finished third instead of Croatia?

5:26

Would Beckham have been sent off? Would Keegan

5:28

have even said that famous line of commentary? Huge

5:30

sliding doors moment right there in Friday the 98.

5:33

It is a huge sliding doors moment, and I'm

5:35

feasting on the Beckham documentary now. Have you talked about

5:37

it on the podcast? Next email, Adam

5:39

Morrison, Dear Quickly Kevin, episode two of

5:41

the new David Beckham documentary on Netflix provides some

5:44

absolute 90s football gold. There's

5:46

a scene in it, I don't know if you spotted this, Ivo, where the

5:48

Manchester United team are being filmed checking in

5:50

to fly out to Barcelona to play Bayern Munich. The players

5:52

seem to be checking in with the general public

5:54

rather than a separate area, which seems a bit bizarre, and

5:57

you see what Manchester

5:59

United players in the queue at WH

6:01

Smiths and you see what Paul

6:03

Skoll's is buying. Two magazines.

6:05

Would you care to guess them either? Yeah,

6:08

I mean I'm livid that I've said

6:10

to a couple of people, the fantastic thing about

6:12

the Beckham documentary is it's so well made

6:15

and it's so nostalgic but you have

6:17

obviously you do know most of the stories so you can watch

6:19

it while like doing a bit of admin or whatever

6:22

which is obviously a terrible accident to take to anything

6:24

and also that's how you miss details

6:27

like what's Paul Skoll's buying at WH Smith because

6:29

I'm checking an email rather than feasting on

6:31

every pixel of it. The gold.

6:34

What are the two magazines? I'm gonna

6:36

say it's Private

6:38

Eye and it's FHM. Oh

6:41

you're half right FHM

6:43

and Shoot magazine. Oh wow. What

6:46

in our wheelhouse that email from Adam Morrison.

6:48

Also that does feel quite old brand, late

6:51

90s Skoll's to be having a checking in

6:53

with the High Street Honeys. Shall we finish with

6:55

some 90s O'Clock news?

7:13

I've just got one piece of 90s O'Clock news and it's

7:15

not well researched but we know I know the

7:18

headline which is that Eric Cantonar

7:21

is doing gigs. He's singing.

7:25

He's got a series of gigs around the

7:27

UK at the moment, one in Ireland and

7:29

apparently these songs he's

7:31

singing aren't that bad. Have

7:33

you got anything? Have you heard this? I've

7:36

got nothing on this. You know obviously

7:38

I do wish to cross promote. I

7:41

do do a music podcast, Geek Pink or we

7:43

can have a Cantonar episode. It wouldn't

7:45

be a total waste of time. Could it be our first collab?

7:48

Chris would you travel with me and Alex

7:50

Keeney to watch Eric Cantonar?

7:51

Yes 100 percent. So

7:55

Eric Cantonar started doing the gigs already.

7:57

Apparently it's quite mad but some

7:59

people tell

7:59

It's good, it's good. If you've been to

8:02

see Eric Cantona live singing

8:04

his songs, please

8:07

let us know how it went. Apparently his setlist

8:10

contains 21 described,

8:12

according to the Daily Mail, mainly mournful,

8:15

largely indecipherable songs. Each

8:18

one much like the last. Chris, he's

8:20

at the Bloomsbury Theatre tonight and tomorrow.

8:24

Tickets, limited availability. You

8:27

know, let's do what we've got to do. I'll bin off

8:29

my talk show in Plymouth tonight. Have

8:32

you seen, there's some pictures of him, he's done his

8:34

first gig in Stoller Hall in Manchester and

8:37

there's some pictures of him wearing

8:40

one of those hats I've only ever seen on

8:42

Mickey Pierce from Roundy Falls and Horses. I think

8:44

they call them pork pie hats, right? It's

8:48

a bizarre get up. If

8:51

you've been to see Eric Cantona, if you've got anything

8:53

else, anything we've talked about, here's how you can get

8:55

in touch with the show. Get

8:58

in touch with the show. Email hello

9:01

at quicklykevin.com. Follow

9:03

us on Facebook and Twitter at Quickly

9:05

Kevin and sign up to the mailing

9:08

list at quicklykevin.com. So

9:12

there we go. This week is Mitt McCarthy. If

9:15

you want to get this episode ad free and extended

9:18

and every episode of this series a week

9:20

early plus two bonus episodes every

9:22

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9:27

You can also now do it via

9:29

the Apple podcast app. Simply go

9:31

to the Quickly Kevin show page and subscribe. Right

9:34

Ivo, it's time for

9:36

Mitt McCarthy.

9:46

Our guest this week made 57 appearances

9:48

for Ireland wearing the captain's armband

9:50

as he took them to their first World

9:52

Cup, getting to the quarter finals at

9:55

Italia 90. After a spell as Millwall

9:57

manager, he would have the unenviable task

9:59

of... managing Ireland, taking over the reins

10:02

from his former international manager, Jack

10:04

Charlton. It's our pleasure to welcome

10:06

to Quickly Kevin, Mick McCarthy. How are

10:08

you doing Mick? I'm very well thanks

10:10

lads, good to see you. You've got some lovely

10:13

artwork behind you. Where's home these days? Bromley,

10:16

yeah it's just the bottom corner of it, it's a

10:18

nice picture of that. I

10:21

wanted to begin Mick with an email from

10:23

a listener, okay. So a few years

10:25

ago we talked about X-Pros turning

10:27

up and playing a bit of Sunday League. We had

10:29

this email from a listener who says, I heard

10:32

you mentioned X-players playing Sunday League and this actually

10:34

happened to me in the mid-90s. I was playing a game

10:36

one Saturday or Sunday morning when I was about seven.

10:38

I had played in a game or a competition where we

10:40

were all in the bar enjoying what was probably chicken, nuggets, chips

10:42

and beans. When the older men's team started

10:45

to come in for the later kickoff on the pitches, when

10:47

walking through the bar they realised

10:49

who my dad was, Mick McCarthy,

10:52

and still living in southeast London and him not

10:54

long left Millwall and currently at Ireland

10:56

was a fairly easy spot for most of the lads. After

10:58

shaking a few hands and signing a few shirts, the

11:00

home team manager joked, fancy a few

11:03

minutes to which my dad replied, if you've

11:05

got a spare pair of boots and shin pads I'll have

11:07

a run out. This obviously caused mayhem

11:09

among the team while they were trying to scramble a team

11:12

together. He went on and played in that match

11:14

and again the following week it all stopped in the third

11:16

week when they played a team on an old cesspit

11:18

of a pitch and the two teams were trying to kick

11:20

seven shades out of each other. My

11:23

dad subsequently pulled both teams together at half

11:25

time and asked them what the hell they were doing. They all

11:27

had to go to work next day and feed their kids and pay their

11:29

mortgage and none of them could do that with a broken leg.

11:31

The game started and then for the second half a

11:34

calm 10 minutes before someone tried taking a pound

11:36

of flesh out of my dad and he politely asked to be subbed

11:38

before never returning to Sunday league again.

11:41

Is that true Mick? At

11:44

the end of that story it's true that it's just the

11:46

last bit about being asked to be subbed

11:49

was a complete no-no. That

11:51

is absolutely true the pitch was awful. I played

11:54

about three games, I had to

11:56

say I loved it, I loved playing with the lads and

11:58

I loved how When I listened to

12:00

them before the games, they were talking about the

12:03

teams that watched on the Saturday, they were respective

12:05

teams at this at both. And if one of them had lost, they

12:07

were all hopeless. And then I turned

12:09

up and played with this lot of buy. Hopeless

12:11

wasn't the word I'd be using for most of them. It

12:14

was great. And I loved it. It was great fun

12:16

with them. But that game, yes, I did pull

12:18

them together. I just couldn't believe what was

12:20

going on. I said, you're going to work on Monday morning.

12:23

You've all got jobs, you're going

12:25

to work on Sunday. And the second half started and

12:27

it went

12:28

fairly similar. So I said to

12:30

the lads, listen, we're going to have to sort this

12:32

out. We're not having this. So now I

12:34

stayed on and we had a bit of a riproading second

12:36

half. I started leaving a bit on one or two

12:39

of them and we won't repeat them. And

12:41

then after that, I realized I was being so bloody

12:44

stupid. I said, what am I doing? My

12:46

last game had been for Ireland

12:49

in the America's Cup in Boston against

12:51

Portugal. And here I was playing on

12:53

a pitch in Southeast London,

12:56

losing me plot. I thought, no, I'm done.

12:59

Oh, by the way, when I got in the shower and it was dripping

13:01

on me head, I'm here like, maybe

13:04

I've done my time. I shouldn't be doing this. Did

13:07

you just love it? You just missed football, just wanted

13:09

to be in the dressing room again. Was that it? No

13:12

one taught me some play. And it

13:14

was short. They just said they saw me, shouldn't

13:16

they? I probably felt

13:18

there's no way he's ever going to join us there. So

13:21

that's true. That's every awesome spare boots.

13:24

It was getting me the kit and I played and I must

13:26

have played I don't know for four

13:29

or five weekends and I loved it. It was

13:31

good. And all the lads were brilliant and I got it

13:33

for them. I still see some

13:35

of them now. They remind me of it. I

13:38

think I got out the right time though. You

13:40

can't play if you play professionally

13:43

and you can see what started to happen on the pitch

13:45

and your teammates are getting kicked and it's getting

13:48

a bit rough. I couldn't have just said that

13:50

I'm having that, but I didn't. I thought

13:52

I'm having that and I went to war with them. And then

13:54

I realized what? Stop it. Stop

13:57

it. You're doing it right, you're not.

13:59

So I had to stop it.

13:59

Yeah, we should tell you as well that

14:02

was your son Michael who sent that email in and obviously

14:04

he's a listener to the show and he's been trying for some time

14:06

to get you on so we're delighted to have you here today

14:08

with us Mick. Is that down to him? Can

14:12

I ask Mick, how much of a no-brainer was

14:14

calling your son Michael? Has

14:16

that always been the intention or was it vibes

14:19

on the day?

14:20

That's a good question. We

14:22

decided that if we had a son it would be called Michael.

14:24

I don't know, he could have been Patrick. It would

14:27

have been a lot easier for his male because Patrick

14:29

would have been getting the whole line instead of me holding his male

14:31

now. Does he have a son? He

14:34

does, yes.

14:35

Is his son called Michael?

14:36

No, he's not.

14:38

Oh, that is disappointing. We haven't

14:40

got a long list of Michaels. What

14:42

is it, 38 now Michael?

14:44

So the decision was made and

14:47

yeah, it suits him anyway. I'm not called Michael.

14:50

You'll have to ask him that. He

14:52

seems to have got a direct line to him. We

14:55

can go around you Mick. So

14:57

obviously, as we mentioned in your intro, it's

14:59

your job one day, you eventually replace Jack

15:02

Charlton as Iron Managers. We'll get to that. But

15:04

obviously, you played for him for many years. Not only

15:06

that, you were his captain. I

15:09

wanted to know, did you have a different relationship

15:11

with him to everyone else because of that?

15:13

No, no, I didn't. I had

15:15

a very good relationship with him. I had known

15:17

him prior to that. He was a manager of Sheffield

15:19

Wednesday and I played for

15:21

Barnsley and we both used to drink

15:23

in the same pub. We'd play pool

15:26

together and we'd have a bit of fun. And

15:28

then when he picked his first squad for Ireland, I

15:30

wasn't in it. He didn't put me in the squad

15:32

against Wales. And then he was asked

15:34

by a journalist, I think he picked about nearly 40

15:37

players. There's a lot of players. And

15:39

I didn't get in it. So I thought, well, that's probably the end of

15:41

my Ireland career. And

15:44

a journalist asked him why I wasn't in it and he said, I know

15:46

Mick. He said, I drink with Mick. We play pool

15:48

with Mick in the red line. I don't need

15:50

to know him. He was getting them together to get to know

15:52

them. So of course, he eventually

15:54

went and called me up and then I made my debut

15:57

in that game against Wales. I came on as a soap.

15:59

We lost. it won. Noble came on as a sub. And

16:02

so I'd had a really good relationship with him all the

16:04

time, but I didn't get any

16:06

grace or favors. Let me tell you, if I was out

16:09

of line, I did anything wrong. I've been treated exactly

16:11

the same. He trusted me.

16:14

He trusted me on the pitch

16:16

to do the right things. I was a defender. He

16:19

probably trusted me because I didn't want to get the ball

16:21

and play out the back because he didn't want that to be done.

16:26

He probably recognized I wasn't capable of that, so

16:28

he kept me in the team.

16:29

I think it's fair to say,

16:31

at the time, Jack Charlton had a reputation for quiet,

16:34

simple tactics. But now you see

16:36

a lot of the things that he was doing, like the high

16:38

pressing and all that, that's the flavor of

16:40

the month now. But he's doing this in the 80s, right?

16:44

Well, it's the Gagan press now, isn't it? High pressing.

16:46

There was a song out for the World Cup and it was

16:49

called Poem Under Pressure. So, you

16:51

know, we get to the World Cup and we sing this song. We're not

16:53

going to sing it now. I don't know the words anyway.

16:55

And the back drop to that was Poem

16:58

Under Pressure. And that was what he did. We turned

17:00

him around. He came in and

17:02

Jack was sort of tactics have changed.

17:05

But at the time, we were trying

17:07

to match ourselves playing football

17:10

with some really good footballers against

17:13

good footballing teams. I'm maybe more tactically

17:16

aware that we're doing it. Jack had

17:18

recognized that he came in. We had

17:20

a weekend at Leeds. We

17:22

trained and he decided he was going

17:24

to turn and put him around in the corners. There's lots

17:26

of them played three at the back, three centerbacks and

17:28

put him in behind the wing backs, squeeze

17:31

up on him.

17:32

He said, they're

17:33

not arrogant this lot. The whole thing they

17:35

can play through as well. We're not going to let them do it.

17:37

We're going to press them in their half, put

17:39

them under pressure. And you know what?

17:41

Our first few games, it started to work

17:44

and then everybody buys into it. And

17:46

of course, it's a long ball

17:48

game now it's frowned upon, but it

17:51

worked. He ended up in two World Cups of

17:53

European championship finals. And

17:56

everybody who played in that will tell you

17:58

how good it was to play in it. That was brilliant.

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all titles currently available. Was

19:31

there an element of like, did you love playing the

19:33

bigger teams because you knew you could kind of upset

19:36

them with this? You knew they're not going

19:38

to get an easy game. Oh yes.

19:39

As you see our squad

19:41

turn up, we might have a plastic bag with

19:44

our boots in, our kit in. We

19:46

a bit look like, what do you call it, raggy-arse

19:48

rovers. That was off

19:51

the pitch stuff. We didn't turn

19:53

up all looking fabulous in great track

19:55

suits. We did enjoy that.

19:58

We're like bloody in the noses of... the

20:00

better nations that were at the time, of course,

20:02

we started to catch up on them. And

20:05

I think one of the first ones we did, we did Spain

20:07

at home. I think that's what we qualified for the Euros

20:09

eventually. And we played

20:12

on that. The pitch was awful. Lands down road was

20:14

awful. It was a rugby pitch. I'm

20:16

sure it didn't get divvied to the work. It suited

20:19

us fine. But teams would

20:21

come and sniff at it. When they saw it, you

20:23

could tell, Oh, we've got to play on this. And

20:25

we've got to get play against this law. We're going to turn this

20:27

around and come and whack us and press us. But

20:30

that said, then we've got some really fabulous

20:32

football as well. The players that we had

20:34

in the time, William Brady and then Ray Houghton came

20:36

in and John Holdridge and Andy Townsend. We

20:39

had some really good footballers that on

20:41

the back of that press and on the back

20:43

of us being aggressive, we could

20:46

play.

20:47

And you played in so many iconic games

20:49

and so many iconic victories. The first one I wanted

20:51

to ask you about was beating England at Euro 88.

20:54

What was that like to be a part of?

20:56

Well, I tell you what you got to do before

20:59

anybody was listening.

21:00

Find Cluffy's.

21:03

He does a video for ITV. He

21:05

does a video. He's on TV with Brian

21:07

Moore. I think he's on. Is he on

21:09

with Grieves? It's a bit almost

21:11

embarrassing because he goes to town on May,

21:14

but it's hilarious. It's hilarious because

21:16

we've eaten. But I haven't

21:18

seen that until afterwards and I've seen it since.

21:21

Anyway, everybody would be Googling that

21:23

with a dill. It'll drop a clip of it. Absolutely.

21:26

So he assassinates me. He

21:28

says something like, I've got

21:30

a bit of an injury. He said, if I was the

21:32

England team, I'd be supporting them and

21:34

getting your physios to make sure that he was

21:36

fit to play as he's talking about me.

21:40

I didn't know until afterwards and somebody told me.

21:42

But the crowd was amazing. The

21:45

build up to it was because we had to play it. And of course, Big

21:47

Jack, he's got a World Cup winner's medal playing

21:49

for England. And all the stories

21:51

around that game. And we

21:54

were expected to get beat. It's our first European

21:56

Championships. But we did

21:58

what we did. I can't say that. We

22:01

were over random, but we were aggressive.

22:03

We were together. We snooped together. We

22:06

didn't concede. And of course, they outguess his famous

22:09

head of gore, which was brilliant. It was

22:11

an amazing time to be part of that team.

22:14

It's true that Gary Lineker had hepatitis B

22:16

during

22:17

that game. Poor performance

22:19

was blamed on illness. Was

22:21

that just a convenient story? No,

22:23

that's in Italy when we drew 1-0, I think. I

22:25

mean, he was so quiet in both games. He could

22:27

have been either. Let me tell you, he had to

22:30

be on tight, really, didn't he not? Yeah.

22:33

Well, let me tell you, if he was poorly Gary,

22:35

I'd hate to play against him when he was well. Listen,

22:38

there's loads of chances. I've looked back

22:40

on that game since, and yeah,

22:43

we got away with it because they

22:45

missed some chances and Pacqueville Bonner was amazing.

22:48

But that's what happened. All it is now is just

22:50

in history, books 1-0. When people

22:52

say to me, oh, you were lucky. Yeah,

22:55

fabulous. I love being lucky, man. Euro 88,

23:00

as we get onto Italian 90, Ireland's first World Cup.

23:02

But you really start to see the identity

23:04

of the Irish fans coming out. And

23:07

it's hard to imagine a major tournament

23:09

without Ireland fans there and football

23:11

stadiums covered in flags. And

23:13

I saw that Irish fans actually won a FIFA Fair

23:15

Play Award in 1997. I just

23:17

wondered, it must have been such an honour to

23:20

play for them because they were having a party at

23:22

all these major tournaments. To have that support must have

23:24

been just incredible.

23:25

Yeah, it was. There's a great story from Italy

23:28

actually where the fans were having

23:30

a drink in a bar round near us,

23:32

near the hotel, as they do, as

23:35

we do. And there's a gang

23:37

of England fans and other

23:39

fans came and tried

23:42

to upset the apple cart. And

23:44

being a bit naughty, the Irish lads got

23:46

up

23:47

less

23:48

and less of them all sat in the pub. About

23:51

an hour later, when they left, they all came back,

23:53

sat down, and they were having none of it. There's

23:56

no chance they were having any fights

23:58

or anything like that. They go to enjoy. and have

24:00

a great time. The Euros

24:02

was wonderful. Because that's the first one we've got to. That

24:04

was just amazing. And during

24:06

the World Cup, in 1990,

24:09

the journalist wrote, he said he'd missed the

24:11

World Cup because he was in Italy. The

24:13

World Cup was going on in Ireland. The schools were

24:16

stopping and work was stopping everything to watch

24:18

the games. Everybody was having a party.

24:21

They've

24:22

carried us along. They were brilliant. Absolutely

24:24

brilliant. The support we got, home and away,

24:26

was just awesome. When you're travelling

24:28

around or going back to Ireland, did the

24:31

Irish fans still talk to you about Italy?

24:33

Is that the number one thing they ask you about? What do

24:35

they come and talk to?

24:36

Yes. Kids were now adults of that

24:38

age, whatever they were, when they were 10. And

24:40

now they can see somebody waiting

24:43

for me. And they say, oh, 88 was

24:45

the best ever. 90 was the best ever. And

24:49

still would come up and want to photograph on

24:51

an RTR8. And they're lovely, lovely

24:53

fans. Never had any abuse

24:57

or anything from any of them. It's just real

24:59

good support we get. Fantastic, man.

25:02

Yeah. So, Italia 90,

25:04

going to a World Cup with Ireland.

25:07

We saw a documentary here. There's a documentary

25:09

team followed you around at Italia 90. And there's

25:12

so many shots of just like the team

25:14

getting on, like everyone's together. It's always a mix of

25:16

different people. And you can just see how

25:18

much team spirit there was between that

25:20

squad. Did it feel like that? Yeah,

25:23

it did. And Jack saw led that. He

25:25

was

25:26

terrific. You know, how he looked

25:29

after us, treated us. There was definitely

25:31

a culture of enjoying ourselves

25:33

while we were there. Let's put it that way. I

25:36

mean, you just would not get away with it now

25:38

because of probably because everything's

25:40

changed and the fitness regimes and what

25:42

they do are somewhat different from 88 to 90.

25:45

I think about the lads

25:47

that played and that fit the work and athletic.

25:50

We did enjoy a pint. We'd always go

25:52

out together. They all stuck together.

25:54

If there was anything going on, there was

25:56

a great feeling like a

25:59

view sort of camaraderie. But

26:01

honestly, I don't know what generated

26:03

Big Jack being started to win. And because

26:06

we're the underdog for lots of times

26:08

as well, we played on that. We

26:10

stuck together. It was a real togetherness. I

26:12

can't even remember any big superstars

26:15

in that team that stood out more

26:17

than anybody else. Everybody had an equal

26:19

part to playing it. And even the lads

26:22

who didn't play or might just

26:24

get a one sub appearance in 10 meetings,

26:27

they loved turning up because the

26:29

atmosphere was brilliant. Did Jack come

26:31

out with you or did he leave the squad to your own devices?

26:34

There'd be another cage when we were back on the bus.

26:37

I remember one time there was one Jackie Charlton.

26:39

So when they tried to get us, they got to stop

26:41

the bus and have a couple of pints. So he did. I'm

26:44

sure it wasn't his appropriate time as well. But

26:47

he'd be like that with his finger, he'd be scratching

26:49

his face. All right, we'll just have a couple.

26:52

Did you find it hard being a manager

26:55

later on and then having to impose

26:57

a bit more discipline, having

26:59

been part of a squad and a culture

27:02

which was so based around enjoying yourself

27:04

on tour and enjoying yourself often

27:06

with the manager as well? It shocked

27:08

you from the other side of the fence.

27:10

Well let me not do Jackie this service,

27:13

by the way, because it wasn't like we were now

27:15

getting a langer's drunk every night before games,

27:17

but we did enjoy ourselves and had a bit of fun.

27:20

Following Jack, was it hard? It

27:23

was damn bad in every single aspect of it.

27:25

The fact that he qualified for two World Cups

27:27

in the European Championships. So

27:30

he quite clearly wasn't doing anything wrong in

27:32

terms of the coaching, his management,

27:34

his tactics, the fact that he let us loose

27:37

and have a couple of pints on a few occasions.

27:40

But there were times just when I got the job

27:42

and I was

27:44

clamping down on the fact that we wanted to have

27:46

a drink one night and I said, no,

27:49

it's time for bed. So

27:52

yes, I was testing on a couple of occasions,

27:54

but I knew all the tricks and I knew the bars

27:56

and where they were, so find

27:58

them all in the hotel.

27:59

So

28:02

the world cupboard, I wanted to ask firstly about the

28:05

end of the group games. I think England

28:07

are playing Egypt, Ireland are playing Holland.

28:10

Is it Neil? I think. No,

28:12

we had 1-1 against Holland. 5 minutes

28:14

to go. Yeah. And you both realise

28:17

if we just keep the score the same, we're

28:19

both going to qualify here. How did the

28:21

admin of that work? How did you get

28:23

that agreement?

28:25

I won't have a word with Rude Hullet. I'd

28:28

asked the score. I think England will win anyone

28:30

else. So it's England,

28:32

Holland and Ireland that we're going

28:34

through. And we just

28:37

had a little chat and I said, well, we're both going through at

28:39

this. We had, I don't know, 80 odd

28:41

minutes of rip-roaring football. It'd

28:43

been a great game, that. And

28:46

Rude agreed that we should just leave

28:48

it as it is. So

28:51

they had the ball and passed it around, kicked it to us.

28:53

We had the ball and passed it and kicked it to them. And

28:56

the referee came and pulled us together

28:58

to see what was happening. And he

29:00

said to his board, he said, lads, you

29:02

have to play football. And he's a French referee.

29:05

I'm sure he was who I'd come across

29:07

when I was in Lyon. And I said to

29:09

him, ref, this is the most football

29:11

we've played. Pass it to each

29:14

other and then just chip it back. So

29:16

he showed me the old, he

29:19

left us to it. And we just played it out.

29:22

It was the right way. We were both going through.

29:25

And I think we'd been kicking lumps out of each other

29:27

for about 80 odd minutes. So it

29:29

was just a little agreement there. Well,

29:31

is it true that you committed more fouls in

29:33

the 1990 World Cup than any other player?

29:36

That is true. And amazingly, well,

29:38

not amazingly, because I used to foul people

29:40

gently. I didn't get one

29:42

yellow card. How about that? That's

29:45

good. And it's all the more impressive

29:47

than when you spent quite a lot of one game playing for a

29:49

draw. I was so sporting

29:52

in the way I kicked them. How

29:54

I didn't get hooked against Romania playing against George

29:57

Haji is beyond me. Don't

29:59

be sent me. picture of me recently, quite

30:02

clearly chasing him again. I've

30:04

got all of his shirt, I'm tackling him from behind

30:07

and he was amazing. He

30:09

was like a ghost on the pitch, he just couldn't do

30:11

anything about him. But yeah,

30:13

most fouls, I've got one record from the

30:15

World Cup. No yellow cards.

30:19

Yeah, we may have had Gary Lineker on this series, he

30:21

was top scorer in 86, but did he have most fouls?

30:23

No. Didn't even get a yellow card his whole career, pathetic.

30:26

You know what though,

30:27

I was there, that's what I saw when I listened

30:30

to Gary and I'm listening to all the things he's

30:32

done and the goals he's scored. I said to you,

30:35

I feel a bit insecure coming down here, to

30:37

all that. I was at the

30:39

same World Cup, talk about being lucky

30:41

and maybe not being as gifted

30:44

as him, I've done it, I've been there and it's

30:46

there forever that. Yeah, Marking Georgie

30:48

Haggie at World Cup. Oh,

30:51

Marking him. Chasing

30:55

him. It was right into Marking, he was amazing.

30:58

I said he was ghost like, he'd be there and then he's

31:00

gone and he was a wonderful, wonderful player.

31:03

After that Romania game, did you get his shirt?

31:05

Did you put shirts on him?

31:07

No, I just took it off him. I

31:10

did, yes, I have Georgie Haggie's shirt,

31:13

it's a real prized possession of mine,

31:15

don't you? Have you got it framed, is it up on a wall

31:17

or is it in the loft? It's not framed

31:19

on the wall, no, but it's certainly tucked away in a

31:21

box, yeah. Oh lovely.

31:23

Mick, Ireland beat Romania 5-4

31:26

on penalties, Ireland didn't miss a single penalty.

31:28

Can I ask where you would have been to

31:31

take a penalty out of the 11 in

31:33

that second round match?

31:35

I might as well have been substituted for that,

31:37

I think I could have been, if I could take a

31:39

sub onto the penalties, I might have been that one. I'd

31:42

stepped up and took penalties before, never

31:45

at that level by the way in the world. As

31:47

you can imagine, probably by the look on my

31:49

face and what I'm saying, I didn't have too much success

31:51

with them. So I was well aware

31:53

that I didn't want to be in the world, others that were better at taking

31:56

them. So I was at least six

31:58

then I was probably 11.

32:02

And then obviously the beat in Romania, I

32:04

think I've heard some stat there almost the entire

32:07

country of Ireland was watching that game.

32:09

How much of an impact do you think Italian has he had

32:12

on football in Ireland like generally?

32:14

The game just seemed to completely change over there after that point.

32:17

I think it did. I think those two years, 88 and 90,

32:19

I don't know

32:21

if it sounds amazing, but it helps to turn the country

32:23

around before 88. There was always

32:25

that apathy about us that we were hopeless

32:28

as a football nation. And it's

32:30

amazing when you start to do well in

32:33

a sport as a nation, sent almost

32:36

to lift the country where people were buoyed by

32:38

it, certainly 88 and then 90,

32:40

even more so in the world cup. And

32:42

I think you've got a real positive effect on everything

32:46

in Ireland, but certainly on the football. People

32:48

then believe that we could win, we could qualify

32:51

for competitions, we could be in the major competitions.

32:54

Despite that, then if

32:57

you think of the players we had prior to it, that

32:59

was the great team of David

33:02

O'Leary, Frank Stapleton, Liam

33:04

Brady, the United

33:22

States. I want to ask the preparation for the

33:24

game against

33:48

Italy

33:50

in the quarter part of a world cup, Italy obviously

33:53

hosting. I read that FAI tried

33:55

to put you in a really dodgy hotel, wasn't

33:57

suitable. And then you found out like the top administrator.

34:00

the FAI all had double rooms and like

34:02

luxury, or the players were like tiny single

34:04

beds.

34:05

Yeah, that's true. Yeah, we turned up at the hotel.

34:08

Listen, we were one of the wealthy nations and travel

34:11

everywhere, and everything done and every

34:13

aspect of our buildup

34:15

was A++, it wasn't, but we all accepted

34:18

that. But it had been good when

34:20

we're there initially, but we turned up in Rome, and

34:23

you imagine we're turning up for a quarter final

34:25

and we're absolutely buzzing. Paki

34:28

Bonner and Jerry Payton, that was

34:30

six foot two-ish and decent size.

34:33

These two are bigger than me. Both

34:35

got big bags that kid turned up to their room.

34:37

It was a single room that had two single

34:40

beds per unit. They

34:42

were almost sleeping next to each other. There

34:44

was no room to put the bags. Then we went and looked at all the other rooms,

34:47

and that had been smothered. They'd done that

34:50

same thing. Well, I went and kicked

34:52

off as you do, stamp your feet. I

34:54

don't know where we'd be, big Jack. Big Jack, it's,

34:57

go on, have a look at it. Jack

34:59

comes and has a look at his room that Paki Bonner

35:01

and Jerry Payton have got. He

35:03

went mad. It's the way he's been set

35:06

up with some of the administration stuff,

35:08

and got bigger rooms than some of the guys,

35:11

the FAIs. The counselor got bigger

35:13

rooms for Jack. Jack went there and had a

35:15

look and he threw them out. Oh

35:17

man. Or asked them to leave. But

35:21

I heard that story. It made me think like, what

35:23

would have happened in like the early 90s, or

35:25

the late 80s, when you're going to away to places like Bulgaria,

35:28

like Eastern Europe, and like going away

35:30

with Ireland. Was that hairy? Were you in some

35:32

proper dodgy places?

35:34

No, I can never remember feeling any

35:37

worries about going anywhere at all. We

35:39

certainly wouldn't have been up there with

35:41

the wealthiest nations traveling. Everything

35:43

was fine. Some of the pictures we

35:46

trained on, some of the hotels. I

35:48

remember we listened to Russia. That was not

35:50

a delivery of the FBI though. We were in

35:52

Russia, and that hotel was just so,

35:55

oh, steer. I had a towel that

35:57

was no bigger than a flannel to get dry.

37:01

And

38:00

when they saw us laid on the pitch watching

38:02

it, they were a little bit unnerved,

38:04

I thought. We were just relaxed, so laying back,

38:06

watching the game. All the pressure

38:08

was on them, of course. It's Italy playing Ireland,

38:11

they weren't fancy to play at home. So I

38:13

guess we played on all of that as well. The

38:15

goalkeeper was his anger at the time. He'd

38:18

been all in just poo poo. There's one of them being

38:20

on the poo, they're going to beat us, you know, which was unreal

38:23

that anybody would do that before the game. And

38:26

we played well enough. And I was angry

38:28

at the referee, whether he'd had

38:30

a directive from some, because we got into the

38:32

Italian team and turned it behind, and we got

38:34

after them. He just kept giving foul away,

38:37

kept stopping the game, breaking the game. We

38:39

could never get a real head of

38:41

steam up. Then of course, Scallachery

38:44

turns up and scores the winner. And

38:46

I was raging at the end of the game, yeah. I

38:50

regret it now, because I went

38:52

off and trying to go be raised. He had agreed

38:54

to change shirts for them. I was storming

38:57

off up the tunnel, and he ran after me and

38:59

grabbed me and swapped shirts with me, which

39:01

was lovely. I ran up the tunnel

39:03

and I was beside myself

39:05

there. I was in tears. I was raging,

39:08

but we'd lost when I thought we could have won. And

39:11

then all the other lads went down the pitch. So I've had

39:13

a bit of a celebration with the fans. And I

39:15

see all that now, I think.

39:17

Oh, I missed that. Stamping

39:20

my feet and pulling my head down. Will

39:23

you have fancied Argentina in the semis? Would

39:25

you have enjoyed marking Maradona?

39:27

Yeah, of course I would.

39:30

I'd only have ruled Hull and Hargy. Without

39:33

Scallachery, I might as well have had Maradona

39:35

as well. We didn't want to. I may have ended up with a £7

39:37

million shirt as well. That would have

39:39

been an interesting one. If you'd stayed

39:41

to collect it. I did collect

39:43

my shirt. Remember, I got it off the raising, going up the

39:46

tunnel. You got it eventually. It's a fair point

39:48

if I had stayed to collect it. We

39:50

fancied ourselves. Once we'd done that, we'd

39:53

been playing Romania, going into Italy afterwards.

39:56

But you have that feeling of, I tell

39:58

you what, we've done really well and everybody's done great. was happy

40:00

how we'd done quarterfinal in the World Cup.

40:03

Bloody hell. Talk about being a

40:05

fully paid up member of the Lucky Club. That's

40:07

how I felt afterwards. But when

40:10

we lost, we lost. I'm not bothered. Oh, that's against.

40:12

I was just raging. It took

40:14

me a long time to come around. Mason

40:16

If you're going for a walk in the forest on your

40:18

own, is that the game you go back and think

40:20

about your playing career? And is that the one you wish

40:23

you could change? So the question,

40:26

the

40:26

only thing I change about is the result. And

40:29

I got a question, what's your

40:31

best game? What's your worst game? And

40:34

generally, I give it that because the

40:36

best game I've played a quarterfinal

40:38

of a World Cup in Rome against

40:41

the hosts. I mean, I had such

40:43

a competition, but just being in that game,

40:46

going down the stairs with the captain's arm band on

40:48

quarterfinal 1990 World

40:51

Cup. Did I ever think I'd be there?

40:53

No, I didn't. So that's the best.

40:56

And then it's the bloody worst as well.

40:58

Storming off in tears and stamping me feet.

41:01

Having a real morn up. I

41:04

wonder, it must be quite interesting going from the World

41:07

Cup quarterfinal and then you go back to

41:09

Ireland, there's like the bus parade and

41:11

the scenes in Ireland is fantastic. And

41:13

then you have to go from that to Millwall.

41:16

And I'm

41:19

a West Ham fan. So to be fair, it

41:21

was fairly similar. Was

41:25

it a bit of a shock to the system to go from that amazing

41:28

thing back to the second division?

41:30

I think for anybody going back anywhere,

41:33

if you've experienced that, the World

41:35

Cup being away for six weeks

41:37

and then you get that, just being together

41:39

with all your messes, home for six weeks,

41:42

you suddenly come back, you forget when you're at home with

41:44

some of the things you might say, the

41:46

way you are and what you do. You become entrenched

41:48

in that. Going down for your breakfast is

41:51

put in front of the train and going

41:53

for your lunch, your kids, all that. Everything's

41:55

done for you. Suddenly you've got

41:57

to come back to a family and look after your kids and you're

41:59

like, wife and all that stuff and just get

42:01

back into normal routine. So

42:04

that can be a bit different,

42:06

certainly. You know, you've come back and you don't think

42:08

about it at the time. You're just a way of doing

42:10

what you do, playing football with all your mates. And

42:12

it's a bit of a voice club. Reality

42:15

is you come back here, you've got three kids and a

42:17

wife, you've got a job to do and get

42:19

back to doing it. So I think for anybody,

42:21

whether they're playing for Millwall or Manchester

42:24

City or Manchester, Arsenal, coming

42:26

back from that World Cup, you're

42:28

going to get your head back around me again.

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43:01

Can we go back a time just before Millwall? You were

43:03

at Leon. What was the experience of being at

43:05

Leon

43:06

in 1989 like?

43:08

It was fabulous. It came

43:10

right out of the blue when I was at Celtic

43:13

that Leon wanted to sign me. Now

43:16

I would have just, well, I would know where it is now,

43:18

but at the time I didn't. And I would have just a Google

43:20

if Google was around. But I had to go and

43:22

get my Atlas out of where he was, Leon. I had no

43:25

idea. You said in an interview

43:27

that your French teammate said that you parle

43:29

français comme une vache espanol,

43:32

like a Spanish cow. Is that correct? Yes,

43:35

you speak French like a Spanish cow.

43:39

I didn't speak French. And the French, I remember

43:41

playing one of the games we lost 4-1. And

43:45

I was partly responsible

43:47

for giving one of the goals away. And

43:49

we came in afterwards. I still didn't speak French. And

43:52

the goalkeeper would

43:54

say, J'adine d'agage beau, J'adine

43:57

d'agage beau. So

44:00

it was something to tell me one of the folks, the guy said,

44:02

he said, he's telling me

44:05

to clear it. I said, I

44:08

don't understand. But he came for it, the keeper.

44:10

And then he said, he wanted me to clear it. A

44:13

bit of a problem that when you're communicating

44:16

with a goalkeeper, the centre back, because that is a real

44:18

big part of it. Keepers or

44:20

whatever it's after I said keepers, he obviously said

44:22

clear it. But anyway, I didn't. And

44:25

yes, they did bring me back speaking like a Spanish

44:28

girl. I was trying though, I was having my lessons.

44:30

I was trying, I wasn't there long enough. And we

44:32

moved over myself, my wife, my kids, my

44:35

eldest, who was only four or five

44:37

at the time before we left was speaking

44:40

beautiful French. It was fabulous. When

44:43

we came home, I went back at Millwall. I

44:45

loved it. But I had to come back and play. If I didn't come back

44:47

and play for Millwall, I would never have played the World Cup.

44:50

So that was the decision. It was a

44:52

tough decision. Because my wife

44:54

loved it. The kids were in French school, we were enjoying

44:57

it. I wanted to play in the World Cup. And I'd

44:59

not come back and made those games for Millwall.

45:02

Then I'd never have played in the World Cup.

45:04

And then you eventually take over the manager's job

45:06

at Millwall to replace him Bruce Riek. You were 33

45:09

and play manager. That's obviously

45:11

quite young to get a manager's job. Wasn't management

45:13

something you always wanted to do?

45:15

No, when I was a kid, I was playing football. I loved

45:17

it. I just wanted to play. Never give it too much

45:20

thought. It's always you start getting a bit old.

45:22

Because you know for a whole world, your career

45:24

is coming to an end. You get towards the 30. Some

45:27

might have five, six, seven, eight years if you're lucky.

45:30

But most of us will be 33, 34, 35. If you get

45:35

there, you've done well. So I started to

45:37

think about it. But that came

45:39

right out of the blue. Completely out of

45:41

the blue, the fact that Bruce Riek was leaving.

45:43

Mr. Ber the chairman at Millwall

45:46

got loving and gave me an opportunity.

45:49

Which when I spoke to Taffy and Evans was

45:51

my, I played with Taffy

45:53

Barnsley. He was the coach at Millwall.

45:56

And he ended up being my assistant at Millwall and through

45:59

Ireland and Wolves and so on. I

46:01

went to him because it was a coach. I said, I'll be nasty.

46:03

Go and see the

46:05

chairman.

46:06

And somebody's put his worm in me here that

46:08

they might be going to offer me the player manager's

46:10

job. He said, do they owe

46:12

any money? Because I haven't played for a while. I said,

46:14

they do have a signing on for you. He

46:17

said, they might be going to pay you up. So

46:19

I went to see Mr. Bear with these two things in

46:22

my head. One, they might be offering

46:24

me the player manager job and

46:26

then tough. But in reality of me, I do. They might

46:28

be wanting to get shut to me a bit.

46:32

Thankfully, it was the first one. And

46:35

then you go on, you had a great few seasons of Millwall

46:38

constantly chasing promotion and

46:40

the island job. I was thinking about when

46:43

you were offered the job. So you took over in February 96

46:45

to replace Jack Charlton, but it didn't

46:47

really seem to be any other contenders.

46:49

It felt like it was only you. Did

46:51

it feel like that? Well, no, no, no, no time.

46:54

Well, there was loads of names mentioned.

46:56

Certainly, I'd be getting them,

46:58

wouldn't I? Because my name's in,

47:00

I'm going to tell this fella's name and somebody else

47:03

the fella's name. But I'm

47:05

sure there were. That can remind

47:07

me of that next. Wimbledon manager.

47:09

Dave Bassett. No, no. Bobby Gould?

47:12

Well, I forgot and you can't remember it. I'm

47:16

sorry. I went up to Newcastle.

47:18

Joke in here. Joke in here. Oh

47:21

dear. Sorry, Joe. I forgot all about it. Anyway, Joe

47:23

was the one that was supposedly in the frame

47:26

for it as well. And there was a couple of other names.

47:29

It was a very strange process,

47:32

very surreal process. I said,

47:35

yes, I'll come and have the interview. Of course I will. But

47:38

I don't want anybody to know because I'm managing Millwall

47:40

and if I get found out

47:42

that I'm even considering it, then

47:45

that's not going to go well for me. Yes, no problem.

47:47

It'd be completely private. Anyway, I turned

47:49

up at a hotel near Reading

47:51

and there was cameras. Oh

47:54

yeah. Yeah, yeah. As I got out of the car.

47:57

So as you can imagine, that was going to go down well, wasn't

47:59

it? We had a bit

48:02

of a bad run as well after all the sort

48:04

of success we'd had at Millwall considering being

48:07

a new young manager we'd done while I

48:09

got into playoffs. It was just

48:11

going a little bit belly up

48:13

and to have me

48:15

seeing going looking for an interview for another job

48:17

wasn't good. What was the interview like? Do

48:19

you remember? Did you have to do a presentation or anything?

48:22

No, no, not at all. It was a

48:25

general chat about it as much as anything.

48:27

I kept it a long time ago. And

48:30

of course I knew all the FBI

48:32

committee as well. I knew them all. They'd

48:34

all been traveling around the world with me or

48:36

me with them all together to all

48:39

these games for years and years. So

48:42

they knew me. I knew them. No, they weren't asking

48:44

me what sort of football am I going to play or could I put

48:46

a chart up or do a... Well, nobody

48:49

would be doing that anyway at that stage and bringing

48:51

my laptop with me and putting it up no

48:53

chance. It was just a general

48:55

chat. Well, it did me some

48:57

good because I got the job, but

48:59

it did me a real disservice with Mel War because

49:02

that came out and that really

49:05

soured it a little bit for me.

49:07

Yeah, I can imagine. How

49:09

tough a decision was it to take it? You touched

49:11

on this at the start, obviously, trying to follow

49:13

in the footsteps of Jack Charlton who everything

49:15

he had done for Ireland and the major tournaments and

49:17

the memories he had created. Did

49:20

that kind of weigh into your thinking a lot?

49:22

Oh, yes.

49:26

A bit like all those who have followed Sir

49:28

Alex at Manchester United now, all of

49:30

us who have followed Jack, we have had a bit

49:32

of success, but nothing like he's

49:34

had two World Cups in the European

49:37

Championships and turning the whole football

49:40

around the island, the whole country for Big Jack. So

49:43

yes, following him was... I spoke to

49:45

him quite a bit about it as well. And

49:47

he was really encouraging and, mate, you will be

49:49

great. You do it. It's a fabulous job.

49:52

You'd be wonderful at it. Take it. And

49:54

he was so supportive all the way through. He

49:57

never once, and he was asked all

49:59

the time. about me after I got a job.

50:02

He never once said a bad thing

50:04

or a negative thing about

50:06

me doing the job.

50:07

No matter what the results were.

50:09

And he didn't speak for

50:12

a long time. A couple of years went by before

50:14

he even spoke about it. And then

50:16

when he did, he was just full of support from it. World Cup

50:18

Series Oh man. It's a tough

50:20

job when you take it over. I did Jack Charlton

50:22

said in his autobiography that one of the reasons he

50:25

left was he saw that his

50:27

older players had given them all they had to give and

50:29

you had like Paul McGrath, Tony Cascarino, John

50:31

Aldridge, your old teammates, and

50:33

they're coming to the end and you're having to kind of phase

50:36

them out. I thought that must have been

50:37

such a tricky aspect of the gig. Paul

50:40

McGrath It was. I went to watch Jack's

50:42

last game against Holham

50:45

and we were well beaten. A team

50:47

that had been so vibrant and aggressive

50:49

and they stopped and playing. Suddenly we were

50:52

not able to do it as well as we had been.

50:54

And so we weren't as good as we should be. When

50:57

Jack left and I've been inheriting everybody else, because

50:59

they're going to play forever as

51:01

long as they possibly can. That was

51:03

a bit of a tough gig that year, having to

51:06

phase them out gradually, I guess over the first

51:09

two years or I know it's a long time,

51:11

two years, but there's only probably 12 games in terms of

51:14

qualifying and trying to qualify and

51:16

actually answering the questions before to change

51:20

the way things have been

51:22

done. I couldn't come

51:24

in and do what Jack did. Yeah. We're

51:26

all going out Sunday night. That's how it had been

51:28

going. I had to change

51:30

things that people didn't like

51:32

either. Paul McGrath

51:33

How does phasing out an old teammate

51:36

work? Would you have a one-to-one meeting

51:39

to discuss it? Did you find that it was a skill that

51:41

you developed as a manager?

51:42

Yeah, you ring them up so you won't need your boots this week,

51:44

mate. Paul McGrath Do

51:50

you remember some of them taking it harder than others? Just

51:52

reminded me of a story when one

51:54

of the lads, usually

51:56

I told the team when they got into the dressing room, this

51:59

is when I was the only...

53:10

that's

54:00

all I could do. Yeah, it grew to the

54:02

times. I wanted to be down there doing what they were doing.

54:05

And one thing that kind of marked out the Jack

54:07

Chulton era was finding English players

54:10

who had an Irish relative

54:13

coming into the island job. Was there an element of that?

54:15

You kind of scouting some players

54:17

who might have the Irish heritage? Is that how it worked?

54:20

Well, bearing in mind, I am one. Yeah, of

54:22

course. My dad's Irish. As

54:24

a kid, I was told as half Irish

54:26

and half English. So that's changed

54:28

now. I'm more Irish than English. Why

54:30

wouldn't we? I always answer that question because

54:33

people say that to me. I say, so I said

54:35

to you, you're a West Ham fan. The

54:38

upsticks have moved to

54:40

France because

54:41

you got a great job there. And

54:43

your wife has a kid and he's grown up

54:45

in France. And then he comes and

54:47

his

54:48

England wanted to play him.

54:50

What do you like? Is he English? Yes.

54:53

Well, there you've just answered my question. Everybody

54:55

says the same when they're all so hard. The

54:57

only time anybody started having to dig about

55:00

this was like, because we're getting Anglo

55:03

Irish as they call them, coming

55:05

and playing because it's the mum, the dad, the

55:08

grandma, the granddad, because that's as far as

55:10

it goes. The only time anybody started

55:12

whinging about that is when we slapped England

55:15

in 88. And then when we drew in 90 and

55:17

before that

55:22

nobody was bothered who played for Ireland. Of

55:24

course, once you start to become competitive,

55:27

you're like, hold on a minute. So it

55:30

makes me laugh. That's the way it is. I think

55:32

if your parents had to move, which my dad

55:34

did, came and married my mother, I

55:36

guess the problem is with that is there's been a few

55:39

spurious ones or a few stories where they're

55:41

not quite sure whether to do qualify or not.

55:44

But anyway, that's how it works. I'm trying

55:46

to see how many people live in the

55:49

change. They used to be great grandparents. Now

55:51

it's grandparents as far back as you

55:53

can go. Because if you went into America,

55:56

millions of Anglo Irish

55:59

and all around the world. we're playing football.

56:02

We want a team to represent Ireland. As long

56:04

as you have got Irish nationality,

56:06

why wouldn't you play?

56:07

What do you feel when you see saga the players going the

56:10

opposite way? People like Declan Rice or

56:12

Jack Greeliff?

56:13

Well, I just inherited that

56:15

one of the very last knock-ins of Declan.

56:18

I went to meet him and he's such a lovely guy. Really

56:21

sad that he'd obviously made that decision then.

56:24

Or he was in the process of making that decision. And

56:27

looking at him, he's made his decision.

56:29

He's the right decision for him. He's

56:31

thriving on it. And so is Jack Greeliff.

56:34

We should have played them before they did.

56:36

I mean, now I think you can play more games now, actually.

56:39

It used to be one game. If you played in one competitive

56:42

game, then you were deemed

56:44

to be of that nationality.

56:47

And of course, we never picked

56:49

Jack or Declan to play one of them, which

56:51

is sad. We'd be a much better team if those

56:53

two. Do you look back and wish, oh,

56:56

I could have thrown them on as a sub there. It was

56:58

Marty O'Neill. When they were

57:00

starting to get in, you

57:03

made decisions on the games that you're playing. I

57:05

have to say, I have given people caps.

57:07

Yes, I have. I've put them on

57:11

to make sure that they are going to play for us. Yes,

57:13

I have done it. Some

57:17

of them will be delighted that I did because they've gone

57:19

to have a good career as a player.

57:22

Now, if you remember, this is a documentary that followed you around

57:24

as iron manager around 1999. And

57:26

there's little bits in that documentary where you get a sense

57:28

that your job as manager has quite a

57:31

large administrative part to it.

57:33

For example, there's a bit where journalists come up to you going, where's the

57:35

press conference making you? I don't know. And there's

57:38

someone else you can ask. And I wondered,

57:41

do you think you had more kind of administrative roles

57:43

than another international manager? Was it a bit

57:46

different as an manager?

57:48

No, there was not the same amount

57:50

of people around me helping me that there would

57:53

have been associations. Let

57:56

me tell you, it was never quite as like official

57:58

as this is what I was talking about. unlike

58:01

direct route say and officially

58:03

do it out today or tomorrow the following

58:05

their fish die he was

58:07

never lie that yeah a bit

58:10

less affair with the organization of is

58:12

all i guess so when he was be

58:14

done so none

58:17

of this of watered times and

58:19

was doing the jobs grievous in our

58:21

the hotel we will press

58:23

conference at one o'clock in this

58:25

room and five pass one

58:27

the be paypal walked around looking to see you at it

58:30

is which used to be

58:32

so harper they are

58:34

you so i was yeah i

58:36

wanted to talk about a to close shaves

58:38

qualification for ninety eight and two thousand

58:41

ninety ninety eight comes down to two legged playoffs

58:43

against belgium and of rain sodden

58:46

night in brussels half the time this has like

58:48

one know belgium when that second to

58:50

one how was that must

58:53

have been harboring him

58:54

the i've seldom shelters

58:58

but us to again as the

59:00

manager or to go back to italy

59:03

the quarterfinal first a different feeling

59:06

this of the same to shoot blasted i

59:08

was raised as well and that some still

59:10

say with are so that they took my

59:13

services users god i

59:15

can't tell you is like to be on the pitch afterwards

59:17

the music blaring on fireworks

59:19

guy just their celebrate and and

59:22

all i do is go off the pitch and

59:24

you remember going it afterwards and there was some

59:26

flashes tea and coffee and hot water

59:29

on the side benefit of pay

59:31

through i'm on the floor and i'm not

59:34

allowed to let us get it's shit outta kicked

59:36

on of a snarky to rile

59:38

the bottom of nice flask and

59:41

be so when's sewage the

59:44

coffee with i don't affect both your

59:46

front of ads i got this flask of before

59:49

it goes no ads no looking up with you

59:52

fucking laugh if you the after

59:57

materials and serious mama zola

1:00:00

I'm going to stop it.

1:00:02

It just calmed me down, I could have shot him. I

1:00:06

would say actually probably Euro 2000 is, the

1:00:08

qualification of that is almost more heartbreaking

1:00:11

because with seconds of the game left against

1:00:13

Macedonia, seconds away from winning

1:00:15

the group, they get a corner and they score

1:00:17

from the corner. And you can see

1:00:19

the Irish players on the pitch just collapse,

1:00:22

some people beat the turf, some are just like screaming

1:00:24

at the sky.

1:00:25

You've just ruined me there. Sorry. We

1:00:30

should have done this the other way around, shouldn't we? I

1:00:33

know. Dear lads. When

1:00:36

I say about the worst, best of worst

1:00:38

was Italy. Worst is that. That was the saddest

1:00:42

defeat of... Well, one of the defeat was a draw.

1:00:44

We were in 96 minutes and we

1:00:46

just couldn't defend the corner. So we didn't

1:00:48

do the job properly. Anyway, after

1:00:51

that, I struggled for as any

1:00:54

defeat has ever done me that, that really was.

1:00:57

We're under the Euros, 30 seconds

1:01:00

away from the European Championships and

1:01:02

we've been in a tough group. So

1:01:04

then you feel like just squirreling

1:01:07

yourself away and burying your head after that.

1:01:09

But you've got to try and then start lifting the lads.

1:01:11

And we were waiting for the other result coming

1:01:13

through and then find out who we're going to play. It was

1:01:17

awful. We used to have an old

1:01:19

versus young on the day

1:01:21

before the game. Swear to two teams, all

1:01:23

the younger, whether you might want to do. We

1:01:26

had a yellow jersey for it and it was always

1:01:28

some abuse on it. I got

1:01:30

it. I've had a Macedonia put

1:01:32

on it. And I

1:01:35

can't tell you that was the worst thing I could have said

1:01:37

to anybody. I've had a Macedonia. And

1:01:39

then of course the press get it and they see

1:01:42

something else wasn't. It was

1:01:44

a shirt that highlighted

1:01:46

to me and everybody else. They had a really

1:01:48

bad day. Nothing to do with Macedonia

1:01:50

or the country, anything like that. It was the

1:01:53

result against Macedonia. If

1:01:55

you've got the yellow jersey, the worst player

1:01:58

the day before the game, you had to wear this shirt. I

1:02:00

had a Macedonia. And that's

1:02:02

how badly it meant to me. It was just

1:02:05

the worst insult imaginable. Very

1:02:07

worst thing, even now. Still hurts

1:02:10

me that we got within 30 seconds

1:02:12

of it. Some people said to me, let

1:02:14

me go. Oh yeah, I wish I could.

1:02:16

You

1:02:19

emulate Jack Charlton, you get to a World Cup 2002,

1:02:21

you get to the second round so

1:02:23

unlucky to lose to Spain on penalties.

1:02:26

Did you chat to Jack about that World

1:02:28

Cup specifically and how to prepare

1:02:30

for it? No, I chatted to Jack.

1:02:33

Plenty, but not to ring up and ask for it. It

1:02:36

was different, just completely different. We've

1:02:38

got there. I wouldn't chat to

1:02:40

him about that. We'd have a chat about anything

1:02:42

other than my job, if

1:02:44

you know what I mean. He only if ever asked him. He

1:02:47

was very supportive and it

1:02:49

was me doing it. It was me and Evan's staff

1:02:52

doing it. It wasn't Jack. I

1:02:54

don't ring up for any advice now.

1:02:56

Like with any World Cup, you lose to Spain on penalties.

1:02:59

But then if you plot that route through, I think you would have

1:03:01

had South Korea in the next round.

1:03:04

Is that one of those things when you go to that countryside

1:03:06

walk? Is that one of the things you think about?

1:03:08

We did at the time, thinking, oh,

1:03:10

if we win, we play South Korea. So

1:03:13

yes, we'd give that some thought. All

1:03:16

it does is increases the disappointment.

1:03:18

You've got to try and get over it as much as anything.

1:03:20

We could have played them. And if this had happened, then that would

1:03:23

have happened. If we'd have scored the penalty, then we could have done

1:03:25

this. I'm not like that. I'm

1:03:27

in the here and now me. We got beat. We lost.

1:03:30

And we had a really brilliant chance to win

1:03:33

that. And against the fabulous Spanish

1:03:35

team, we went on to do all sorts of stuff, but

1:03:38

we could have won it.

1:03:39

Oh, man. Your time

1:03:41

with Ireland on and off the pitch has been so

1:03:43

many great memories. So we always end this

1:03:45

podcast with the same question. You

1:03:47

say you're a man who looks forward, but if I were to give you

1:03:49

the option to hit a button and you would

1:03:51

go back, I'm going to let you go back to the 23rd

1:03:54

of May, 1984, the day you

1:03:56

made your international debut for Ireland. And

1:03:58

I'll let you live it all again.

1:03:59

then,

1:04:00

would you take that option?

1:04:02

Oh, absolutely I would. Benjamin

1:04:05

Bum. I did

1:04:07

eagle the other way. Would I go back and do it?

1:04:11

Yes. I've loved every minute of my playing

1:04:13

career. I've been a

1:04:15

fully paid up member of the Lucky sperm

1:04:18

club, believe me. My old

1:04:20

man was from Waterford and

1:04:22

the fact that I ended up playing for Ireland was

1:04:24

amazing when I first capped to

1:04:27

the time when I walked down as captain in the quarter

1:04:29

final and then managed it. I'd do

1:04:31

it all again. Would I do it differently?

1:04:33

No, it's been pretty good. I don't

1:04:36

know if you can change it. I'd check it all again.

1:04:39

Yeah, it really has been good. It's been wonderful talking

1:04:41

about it. Thank you so much for joining us, Smith

1:04:43

McCarthy. It's a pleasure. Thanks, folks. Thanks for

1:04:45

having me on. Thank you, Mick. Do

1:04:47

you

1:04:54

know what? I really like him. I

1:04:56

really like him. Yeah, it was

1:04:58

lovely. I thought after he said it the

1:05:00

first time, I'm going to try and use that.

1:05:02

A, I'm going to just try and be more grateful in

1:05:05

general for the

1:05:07

good fortunes I've had in my life, but I'm going to use the expression,

1:05:09

I'm a fully paid up member of the Lucky club. Then

1:05:12

when he returned to it later and said, a fully

1:05:15

paid up member of the Lucky sperm club, I was

1:05:17

like, I think I'll use the first version.

1:05:20

I know that he was specifically referencing, you know,

1:05:23

being able to play for Ireland, but,

1:05:25

you know, it was very wholesome

1:05:27

stuff. I thought, yeah, it really was.

1:05:29

And the fact that it's such a big

1:05:32

thing to be able to walk around and say, I played in a

1:05:34

World Cup quarter final, but more the captain's

1:05:36

armband. How many people can say that? I've

1:05:39

had such a nice relationship as well. I mean, I felt

1:05:41

a bit like, it was almost a bit

1:05:43

cheeky. I mean, it wasn't meant to be

1:05:45

cheeky, but about having to make that turn around, particularly

1:05:47

in his thirties from being a player and a member

1:05:49

of a squad that had quite a lot of fun when they're on international

1:05:51

duty to then having to be sort of firm

1:05:54

with the same players. And then

1:05:56

immediately, the way I phrased it and where it's going, it made

1:05:58

it feel like I'd insulted.

1:05:59

Jack Charlton, and then like a true politician,

1:06:03

he was emphatic that

1:06:05

Charlton was no push-up.

1:06:07

And it was a respected

1:06:10

manager himself. So you

1:06:13

feel you're in lovely nostalgic

1:06:17

hands with Mick McCarthy, but also

1:06:19

he's a firm interviewee. He

1:06:23

won't lose his central threat. He's

1:06:25

got that thing that David Moyes has where

1:06:28

you get in on, but you know at any second,

1:06:31

he's still, you know, I think that's something

1:06:33

that happens when you've been a manager for a long time. You

1:06:36

used to field in questions. You

1:06:38

can change in an instance. How

1:06:42

did you find him, Michael? Yeah, I really liked him. Similarly,

1:06:44

I think that thing of, we've had a

1:06:46

few guests over the years where you feel like

1:06:49

you're getting along. You're one

1:06:51

factual inaccuracy away from him. Really,

1:06:54

really turning on you. And I don't think because

1:06:56

he was sort of particularly petty, but I think there's a real

1:06:58

kind of like a sort of iron

1:07:01

in a sense of integrity and principle

1:07:03

that he doesn't want to be kind of misquoted

1:07:05

or he doesn't want to be sort of misrepresented in any

1:07:07

way, which I'm sure he has over the years as a player and

1:07:09

especially as a manager. So they're very

1:07:12

quick to pick up on anything that might

1:07:14

step out of their very clear

1:07:16

and sort of true narrative. There was

1:07:18

one thing you said where he sort of, I think it was the shirt thing,

1:07:21

he sort of went, no, if you remember,

1:07:23

I did collect the shirt. It's almost like I was

1:07:25

sizing you. You're just like, no, no, no,

1:07:28

no.

1:07:28

I've presented you with the facts. Do not

1:07:30

change what I said. Yeah, that was, I

1:07:33

definitely felt that was a slap

1:07:35

on the wrist. That

1:07:37

was a foul, but it was not a yellow card. It

1:07:40

was not a yellow card. Well, this is the, I mean,

1:07:42

firstly, I stand

1:07:45

by my lighthearted, if ill-timed

1:07:47

quip about him, hypothetically, nearly

1:07:50

not getting Meridol as shirt in the hypothetical

1:07:52

island versus Argentina semi-final. But

1:07:55

also, he is speaking from

1:07:57

his, you know, crucially, his... lived

1:08:00

experience of having been at these epic

1:08:03

football matches and tournaments. I'm

1:08:05

just some goon who's read Wikipedia.

1:08:08

But I think it was Ireland

1:08:11

versus England that the draw when

1:08:13

Gary Lineker had hepatitis. And

1:08:15

also his last game for Ireland was

1:08:18

not when they played America

1:08:22

at the US Cup 1992. He

1:08:25

then played in matches against

1:08:27

Portugal and Italy. But

1:08:31

what place do I have chipping in

1:08:33

with my Wikipedia facts against the Mick

1:08:35

McCarthy version of history? There you

1:08:37

go. That was Mick McCarthy. If

1:08:40

you want to get even more of that interview, you can

1:08:42

sign up for the Quickly Kevin fan club at anotherslice.com

1:08:45

forward slash quickly Kevin. That's it for this

1:08:47

week. We'll see you next week. Thank you to Mick McCarthy.

1:08:49

And the outro this week comes courtesy of Chris Hardy.

1:08:52

He says, lose your marker, Daniel

1:08:54

Farker.