0:01

You know that big burger detergent joke is

0:04

eighty percent water. Eight eighty percent water. I

0:06

thought I was getting a better deal because

0:08

it's so big. If you want to better

0:10

claim type odds are only twelve percent water.

0:12

The rest is pure concentrated cleaning ingredients. Oh

0:15

s me to in accounting. Attention

0:18

If you want a real deal. Try

0:21

tag. Don't pay for water, Pay

0:23

for clean. If it's gotta be clean, it's gotta

0:25

be tied Pods. Water content based on that

0:27

leaving bargain liquid detergent. And

0:57

not only that, it has

1:00

to be humidified as well. And

1:02

astronomers pinned down a kind of

1:04

mysterious bright star that

1:06

appears just briefly in the night sky. You

1:09

could see it just with your naked eye

1:11

out in the night sky, so any supernova

1:13

that close would absolutely be visible. Plus,

1:15

penguins take a few thousand naps a

1:17

day. And the technology

1:20

for artificial wombs that could lead

1:22

to better odds for miracle babies.

1:25

All this today on Quirks and Quarks. That's

1:37

the sound of a reindeer drawn sleigh

1:39

in Finland. Not exactly a

1:41

common mode of transportation, but

1:43

the idea of reindeer as beasts of burden

1:46

is traditional at this time of year. Which

1:49

brings us to our first story of today. What

1:52

do reindeer, we more often call

1:54

them caribou here in Canada, and

1:57

arctic seals have in common? Well,

1:59

some cry for reindeer. correct answers would be

2:01

their habitat, the frozen north. Also

2:04

they're both mammals, though one lives

2:06

on land and the other largely prefers the

2:08

water. But it turns out

2:10

that one of the things you might be surprised to hear

2:13

is that they have quite similar noses.

2:16

That's because both reindeer and arctic

2:18

seals have a common problem to

2:20

cope with, the frigid arctic air

2:22

they breathe. Dr. Lars

2:25

Volkov has studied both animals for many

2:27

years, but in a new study he

2:29

and his colleagues confirmed how their noses

2:31

helped them deal with the extreme dry

2:33

and cold northerly climate. He's

2:36

a professor of animal physiology at the

2:38

Arctic University of Norway. Dr.

2:40

Volkov, welcome to our program. Thank

2:42

you very much, Bob. Now

2:45

what kind of problems does cold air

2:47

present to animals like seals and reindeer?

2:51

The main problem is that the

2:53

air must be warmed so it

2:56

reaches deep body temperature for the

2:58

lungs to function. And

3:00

not only that, it has

3:03

to be humidified as well

3:05

because cold air is by

3:07

physical nature also dry air.

3:11

So I know that you started looking at

3:13

this issue in reindeer in your previous work,

3:15

so just briefly what did you find in

3:17

their noses? Well

3:20

reindeer have a complex system

3:23

of bones inside their nasal

3:25

cavity. They are

3:27

referred to as maxillary turbinate bones

3:30

and the air is also passing

3:33

through very thin passages which

3:35

maximizes the contact between the

3:37

air and the nasal

3:40

walls to improve the exchange

3:42

of both heat and water

3:44

between the air and nose.

3:47

Okay, so do seals have similar

3:49

structures in their noses? These

3:52

definitely have similar structures in their noses

3:55

and they are even

3:57

more complex than the structure.

4:00

that we found in the reiner which

4:02

had some scrolled structures as

4:04

opposed to seals that have

4:07

more tree-like structure

4:09

or broad structure but

4:12

apart from that today served the

4:14

same main purpose namely of enhancing

4:16

the surface area of nasal

4:19

wall that is in contact with the

4:21

air. It's interesting that

4:23

these are two very different animals and

4:26

yet they've they've adapted similar solutions to

4:29

the same problems kind of like

4:31

convergent evolution. Yeah

4:33

definitely so and the

4:36

discussion in our group has

4:39

been as to

4:41

whether these structures primarily

4:43

evolved for the purpose

4:45

of conserving heat

4:48

or whether it was

4:50

equally important to conserve water because

4:53

these structure do both of these

4:55

things. Well take me through that

4:57

how do they conserve the water? Well

5:00

when these animals inhale cold

5:03

air it is also very

5:05

dry air. Actually

5:07

one liter of cold

5:10

air contains only

5:12

one-twentieth of the amount of water that

5:14

you find in one liter of long

5:16

air and all these this

5:19

water has to be added

5:21

from the animal as the air is

5:23

passing through the nasal cavity and

5:26

if all this air

5:29

is exhaled at deep

5:31

body temperature and full of

5:33

humidity quite a lot of

5:35

water will be lost but

5:37

the heat exchange system that these

5:40

animals possess can recover

5:42

both part of the

5:44

heat and part of the water that is

5:46

added during inhalation. Now

5:49

is this adaptation in the seals and

5:51

the reindeer noses just for

5:53

the Arctic or like

5:56

seals live everywhere they're all over the world. That

5:59

is what We have investigated

6:01

in recent publications where we

6:03

compared monk seals from the

6:05

Mediterranean with an

6:07

Arctic seal species. Previous

6:10

studies have shown that the lower

6:13

latitude seal, the monk seal, actually

6:16

have much less complex turbinate

6:19

systems inside the nose. They have

6:21

a smaller surface

6:24

area of nasal wall exposed to

6:26

the air that they are breathing.

6:29

If we took a seal from warmer water and

6:31

brought it up to the Arctic, would it be

6:33

able to do as well? It

6:36

would not work out very well for

6:38

that seal because they

6:40

would be unable actually to

6:42

warm cold air to long

6:44

temperature before it reached the

6:46

long sea even. How

6:49

much more heat and water would it

6:51

lose per breath? It

6:54

would probably lose at

6:56

least twice as much of

6:58

the heat that an Arctic

7:01

seal can retain or conserve through

7:03

its much more elaborate system. And

7:06

the moisture? You

7:09

could say that heat and

7:11

water goes hand in hand.

7:13

So proportionally it would be

7:15

the similar gain in

7:17

its water economy. Are

7:20

there any practical applications that we

7:22

could take from the ability

7:24

of the seals and the reindeer to retain

7:26

heat and moisture in cold temperatures? If

7:30

not heat and moisture, so

7:32

at least the heat exchange

7:34

mechanism in general are of

7:37

great interest now in commercial

7:39

and industrial applications. One

7:41

of these applications could for example

7:44

be the production of natural gases

7:47

and for the transportation of these

7:49

gases they need to be liquefied.

7:52

And for that to happen you need to

7:54

cool them, which is energy

7:56

demanding itself, and then you need to

7:58

reheat them to... transfer

8:00

them from a liquid back to a gas

8:03

again before they can be used. And

8:05

in these systems, huge amounts of

8:07

energy are used and if efficient

8:10

heat exchange mechanism could be applied,

8:13

a lot of savings could be made.

8:17

Well, we always find that nature has

8:19

had millions of years of evolution to

8:21

perfect these systems, so we can always

8:23

learn from it. Definitely.

8:26

And this is something

8:28

which is receiving increased

8:30

focus not only in

8:32

industry but in medicine

8:34

too. Just one

8:36

last thing. When you were studying the

8:39

reindeer noses, did you find any evidence

8:41

that they can glow brightly to guide

8:43

the sleigh at night? We

8:48

did actually conduct a

8:51

study where we investigated

8:53

the changes in the

8:56

perfusion of the nostrils,

8:59

because the nostrils receive a

9:01

separate downstream from that which

9:03

is refusing the internal walls

9:06

of the nasal cavity. And

9:09

that is important because the nostrils

9:11

are exposed to the arctic

9:14

chill and must be prevented

9:16

from freezing. And

9:18

in that context, when the

9:21

reindeer are moving in cold

9:23

environments, there is an increase

9:25

in the blood flow to

9:27

the nostril area. In

9:30

most reindeer, the nostril skin is black,

9:32

but there are some white reindeer

9:35

where the skin is very light

9:37

and actually is pinkish. And

9:40

perhaps they would have a

9:42

nose lighting up with a

9:44

reddish light in

9:47

the Christmas. So they can't

9:49

go red. They can

9:51

go red. Dr.

9:54

Folkoff, thank you so much for your time. Thank

9:57

you for letting me be on the phone.

10:00

on this show. Dr. Lars Fulkop

10:02

is a professor of animal physiology

10:04

at the Arctic University of Norway.

10:14

Of course Santa's reindeer are famous for

10:16

working all night long to help the

10:18

big guy travel all around the world,

10:21

but that doesn't mean other reindeer don't work

10:23

just as hard. In

10:25

their northern homes, reindeer, and again we know

10:27

them as caribou on this side of the

10:29

pond, live in areas with lots

10:32

of sun in the summertime and lots of

10:34

darkness in the wintertime, and

10:36

warm or cold, dark or light, food

10:39

is their biggest priority. Reindeer,

10:42

like cows, are ruminants, which

10:44

means they need to chew and re-chew

10:46

their food over and over again to

10:48

extract every bit of nutrition from it.

10:51

So that makes eating a

10:54

24-hour-a-day job, which

10:56

made sleep experts wonder, how

10:58

are they fitting sleep into their busy

11:00

schedules? Now in a new study

11:02

we've got the answer. It turns

11:04

out that reindeer are expert multitaskers

11:06

and can catch a quick power

11:09

nap while they're chewing. Melanie

11:12

Furr is a neuroscientist with the University

11:14

of Zurich. She led the study. Dr.

11:17

Furr, welcome to our program. Thank you very

11:19

much. First of all, why did

11:21

you want to look at how reindeer sleep? So

11:23

we knew already from studies that

11:26

had been published before, if we

11:28

just look at their activity, that

11:31

they are much more active in

11:33

summer than in winter and also

11:35

that under the constant conditions in

11:37

summer and winter, that then they

11:39

do not show 24-hour rhythms. And

11:41

this is quite special because if

11:44

I would put you, for example,

11:46

in a dark room for

11:48

a long time, you would still have a

11:51

sleep-wake rhythm that is more or less 24

11:54

hours. So reindeer are really

11:56

interesting in regards of their

11:58

inner biological clock tests. drives

12:00

these rhythms. Now before

12:02

your study what did we know about how their

12:04

sleep differs during the winter and the summer? So

12:07

before our study we only could guess

12:09

how their sleep looks like from the

12:12

activity data we had and from this

12:14

we actually thought that they might sleep

12:16

more in winter and less in summer

12:18

because they're much more active in summer

12:20

but now with the new study we

12:23

found out that this is actually not

12:25

true because only if we measure the

12:27

brain activity we can really know if

12:29

an animal is actually asleep or if

12:31

it's maybe just chilling. Now in

12:35

addition to the sleep they're also ruminating their

12:37

food how important is that to them? That

12:40

is very important to digest the food

12:42

and to get all the energy out

12:45

of it that they need because like

12:47

this they can decrease particle size and

12:49

therefore the bacteria then in their gut

12:52

can really digest everything

12:54

and get more energy out of

12:56

it so it's super important especially

12:58

in summer when they eat

13:00

a lot so that they get as much out

13:02

of it as possible so that they are prepared

13:05

for the winter where there's not so

13:07

much food available. Well take

13:09

me through your study how do you study sleep

13:11

patterns in reindeer? So we

13:13

glued electrodes on their skin we placed

13:16

a little recording device on their back

13:18

so that they could still move freely

13:20

around and it lasted for around four

13:23

days so we had then data of

13:25

their brain activity for four days and

13:27

from there we could then see when

13:29

they were sleeping. What was

13:31

it like working with the reindeer? It

13:33

was great so it was actually for me

13:36

it was the first time I ever saw

13:38

a reindeer in real life and

13:40

the first things we had to do was

13:42

to get them used to us so we

13:45

our first job was to just pee

13:47

with them, test them, talk to them

13:50

and then try to touch them at

13:52

their head so they get used to

13:54

us placing these electrodes or shaving their

13:56

fur and so on. Actually

13:58

the first time I was was there, I

14:01

walked, so sometimes we would go on a

14:03

little walk in these enclosures so they can

14:06

get out of the stable a bit. And

14:08

the first time one reindeer escaped, so

14:10

that was the first impression I

14:12

made on them. But then we

14:15

could get it back and from then

14:17

on this reindeer actually became my favorite.

14:20

So what did you find then when you looked at their

14:23

sleep patterns? So what we found

14:25

was first that if we looked at

14:27

their 24-hour rhythms in their sleep pattern

14:29

that this matches with what we already

14:32

know from activity data, so that they

14:34

sleep more during the night and less

14:36

during the day in fall, but that

14:39

they don't have a 24-hour rhythm

14:42

in summer and in winter. And

14:44

then the more surprising finding was

14:46

that they sleep a similar amount

14:49

across the whole year. So

14:51

they do not sleep more in winter or

14:53

less in summer but actually need a similar

14:55

amount across the whole year. And

14:58

then what we also did, we kept them

15:00

awake for two hours and

15:02

then we looked at the brain

15:04

waves during deep sleep. So there

15:07

we have typically very

15:09

slow and big waves and these

15:11

waves, they're called slow waves, they

15:14

get bigger if we have been awake

15:16

for a long amount of time. And

15:18

this shows that sleep pressure has been

15:20

increasing across this wake time. And

15:22

this was also true in reindeer, so

15:24

we saw that these waves got bigger,

15:26

so that means that after we kept

15:29

them awake they were sleeping deeper. And

15:32

then maybe the most fascinating finding

15:34

was that if we

15:36

looked at this after an episode

15:38

of rumination, that then these waves

15:41

became smaller, so that means that

15:44

sleep pressure decreased across

15:46

rumination. So also if

15:48

we look at the brain

15:50

waves during rumination, we were

15:53

able to detect some typical

15:55

characteristics of so-called non-rem sleep,

15:57

deep sleep. So for example...

16:00

If the reindeer ruminates

16:02

more, because maybe it was eating

16:04

more or a certain type of

16:06

food, so it needs to ruminate

16:08

more, then this reindeer would need

16:10

less additional non-REM sleep. So

16:13

does that mean they're sleeping while they're

16:15

ruminating? Yes, exactly. So

16:18

this really shows that this rumination

16:20

time also fulfills a similar function

16:22

and really decreases that sleeping. So

16:25

if they're sleeping during these short

16:27

periods of ruminating, how much

16:29

does that add up? Like how much sleep are they getting

16:31

in a day? If

16:34

we take everything together, they sleep

16:36

a similar amount as we do,

16:38

so around eight, nine hours, something

16:40

like that. If we count

16:42

now rumination as sleep too. Boy.

16:46

So why is it important to

16:48

understand the sleep patterns of reindeer

16:51

and caribou? I

16:54

think it's generally important that we

16:56

study different animals, so not just

16:59

humans, mice, rats, maybe the fruit

17:01

flies, so animals that have been

17:03

studied a lot in terms of

17:05

sleep that we test, study

17:07

all kinds of animals we can, so

17:10

to really see how sleep is regulated,

17:12

what might be the functions and so

17:15

on. And

17:17

why exactly reindeer? I think there

17:19

it was really the motivation was

17:21

because of their biological clock that

17:23

drives these 24 hour rhythms that

17:25

seems to be regulated

17:27

a bit differently, so therefore

17:30

it was interesting to see how the sleep

17:32

looks like. Well

17:34

I'll think about this while I'm dozing off as

17:36

I'm eating my Christmas dinner. Make

17:40

sure my forehead doesn't fall into the mashed

17:42

potatoes. Just one last

17:44

thing. Does this mean then

17:46

that when reindeer are on

17:48

the roof waiting for Santa to go

17:51

down the chimney that they're probably taking

17:53

naps? Yeah I

17:55

guess if they are busy

17:57

all the time they need some time.

17:59

to take naps, so yes, most

18:02

likely, because they need a certain amount of

18:04

sleep even when they bring the presents, I

18:06

think. Dr.

18:09

Furr, thank you so much for your time. You're

18:11

very welcome. Thanks to you. It was a pleasure

18:14

talking to you. Melanie Furr

18:16

is a neuroscientist with the University

18:18

of Zurich. And coming

18:20

up, we heard about

18:22

sleepy reindeer. Now we've got

18:24

some sleepy penguins. And while

18:26

I know penguins don't live near the North

18:28

Pole, don't they seem sort

18:30

of Christmasy? Most

18:36

of us have done it. You're a

18:39

little sleepy and your head starts to

18:41

nod. Then hopefully, just

18:43

seconds later, you wake with a start and

18:46

look around to see if anyone noticed.

18:48

It happens in an overheated

18:50

classroom or lecture or

18:52

frighteningly, maybe behind the wheel

18:54

when you're driving unwisely overtired.

18:58

For humans, these short bursts of sleep

19:00

are no substitute for a good night's

19:02

snooze. But in the animal

19:04

kingdom, it can be a different story altogether.

19:08

Take the chin strap penguin that lives

19:10

in the South Pacific in Antarctica, for

19:12

example. And a new

19:14

study of their sleep habits when they're nesting

19:17

shows they are masters of micro naps. Dr.

19:19

Paul Antoine Liberale is a sleep

19:22

physiologist who contributed to the study.

19:24

Dr. Liberale, welcome to Quirks and Quarks. Hello.

19:28

Now, you have visited these colonies.

19:31

What kind of pressures are these chin strap

19:34

penguins under when they're in the colony that

19:36

could impact their sleep? There

19:39

is many pressure, I would say

19:41

two pressure. The first one is

19:43

the predation pressure because there is

19:45

a predator that would like to

19:47

catch their eggs. The

19:49

other pressure could be the fact

19:51

that they are sleeping in the

19:53

colony with many disturbance, noise, and

19:55

bad smelling in the colony. So

19:58

two big pressure on the sleep. How

20:01

big are these colonies? I

20:03

know that there is 3000 breeding pairs. Wow!

20:07

Holy smokes! Once

20:10

you got to the colony, how did you

20:12

monitor the birds? We have used this

20:14

small device. We

20:18

make it waterproof to resist for a big

20:20

pressure and salt water. And

20:22

we tape it on the animals to be

20:25

able to record their brain activity as well

20:27

as their behavior. We

20:29

have something on the head and something on the back. We

20:31

catch the animal, equip them, and then

20:34

we release them for many days and

20:36

weeks and we capture them. And

20:38

then we are able to retrieve the data at that time. The

20:42

last thing that is quite important is

20:44

the video. There are many things that

20:46

occur during sleep. Eyes opening,

20:48

twitches during rapid eye movement sleep.

20:52

And then we have been able to put

20:54

some camera, not continuously, but we have some

20:56

video recording of

20:58

the penguin sleeping. So

21:00

once you set all of this up, what did

21:02

you find was going on in their brains? What

21:06

was really surprising was

21:08

the fact that they were sleeping

21:10

fragmented, but not only fragmented. Fragmented

21:13

all the time. They were

21:15

sleeping continuously with microsleep. Well,

21:17

when you say microsleep, how short were their bouts of

21:19

sleep? Their sleep bouts

21:21

last around four seconds in mean. They

21:25

accumulated 75% of

21:27

their sleep with sleeping bouts lasting less than

21:29

10 seconds. So very short. Less

21:32

than 10 seconds? They go right to sleep

21:34

and back awake again in 10 seconds. Exactly.

21:37

They do it 600 times per hour, which is around 14,000 times

21:39

a day. Holy

21:44

smokes! So

21:48

if you add all of that up, how much sleep are

21:50

they actually getting? They are

21:52

sleeping 11 hours a day. Like most

21:54

of the other birds, they

21:57

spend half of their time sleeping. sleeping

22:00

in a fragmented way. It

22:02

is just like they were always in

22:04

between sleep and wake, all the time.

22:08

What did you see on the video while they

22:10

were doing these micro-sleeps? We

22:13

found that there is a

22:15

high correlation between the sleeping

22:18

brain pattern and

22:20

the high closure. It seems that

22:22

the animals were closing and opening

22:24

their eyes really in phase with

22:27

their sleep state. So if you

22:30

just stay near the nest and look at

22:32

the bird, you can observe it opening one

22:34

eye, opening two eyes, closing two eyes, closing

22:36

one eye and do it repetitively. So

22:39

they are still keeping an eye out for those predators.

22:41

Yeah. This is

22:43

what we think. There is no clear

22:46

proof that they sleep like this for

22:48

that purpose. This is an explanation

22:50

that we have because when animals

22:52

are sleeping, they are not aware about

22:54

the environment. They can't protect the hag,

22:56

they can protect themselves. So we think

22:59

that there is a compromise, a trade-off

23:01

that the animal should find between sleeping

23:04

and remaining vigilant and protecting the hag.

23:07

Now what about their position in the colony?

23:10

Like how much they sleep if they are on the

23:12

outside edge? You said there are thousands of these birds.

23:14

So if they are on the outside compared to inside

23:16

the colony? We were

23:19

expecting that the animals

23:21

sleeping on the border of the

23:23

colony, we were expecting them

23:25

to have less sleep, maybe more

23:28

fragmented or maybe more unilateral,

23:30

uni-amisphobic sleep. But finally we

23:32

found exactly a reverse. We

23:34

found that the animal in

23:37

the center were sleeping more

23:39

fragmented, less. And so this

23:41

was quite surprising for us.

23:44

We think that there is many disturbance

23:46

in the colony that could contribute to

23:48

the fact that they have more disturbed

23:50

sleep. Noisy neighbors. Yeah,

23:53

so it's good to sleep in the center because

23:55

you protect your hags, but the problem is that

23:58

you probably, or when I say you, is... the

24:00

penguin, they have a worse sleep. If I

24:02

can say worse because actually I have no

24:04

idea whether it's better or not better for

24:07

a penguin to sleep less. Boy,

24:09

so you're either gonna get poor sleep if you're

24:11

on the outside of the colony because of predators

24:13

or you're gonna get bad sleep on the inside

24:16

because of your noisy neighbors. Now

24:19

these penguins we know that they pair bonds so

24:21

while one of them is taking care of the

24:24

egg in the colony the other ones out

24:26

at sea what about those birds? During

24:28

that time they remain highly active

24:31

almost 70% of

24:33

that time the animal are active but

24:35

sometimes they can sleep they can have

24:37

some floating behavior it seems that the

24:39

animal are resting at the surface of

24:42

the sea. At that time

24:44

on few birds we were able to

24:46

detect some sleep signatures so for the

24:48

first time we demonstrated that animal can

24:51

have some sleep when they were foraging

24:53

at sea however

24:55

we have no idea whether it's more or

24:57

less fragmented the only thing that we can

24:59

do is that they drastically reduce the quantity

25:01

of sleep when they are foraging. Are

25:05

there any lessons that we can take from

25:07

the penguins to apply to humans

25:09

who have sleep disorders? I'm

25:11

sorry no the only reason is

25:14

don't try to sleep like a

25:16

penguin because if

25:18

you sleep too short I am pretty sure

25:20

you you will feel that so

25:22

the only lesson from these two

25:24

days that sleep is a central

25:26

behavior in many animals and a

25:29

state that is under ecological constraint and

25:31

that we should take in count to

25:34

protect the other animal and to better

25:36

understand how they live. Dr.

25:39

Liberlle thank you so much for your time. Thank

25:41

you very much. Dr. Paul Antoine

25:43

Liberlle is a comparative sleep biologist

25:46

at the French National Center for

25:48

Scientific Research in Lyon, France. Okay

25:52

don't skip ahead I'm going to talk to you

25:54

about climate change and I know

25:56

it can get depressing or infuriating but our

25:58

show takes a different approach. approach. It's

26:02

Laura Lynch and I'm the host of What

26:04

on Earth and we're all about solutions and

26:06

hope. And I promise, no

26:08

matter how overwhelming climate change might feel,

26:10

we're with you on the journey to

26:13

fix this mess. So listen now, wherever

26:15

you get your podcasts. The

26:27

idea that the Christmas star, or

26:29

the star of Bethlehem, was in

26:31

fact a supernova, was first

26:33

suggested by Johann Kepler in the

26:35

17th century. And while it's

26:37

fun to think about the three wise men

26:39

being drawn to Bethlehem by a distant exploding

26:42

star, there isn't much proof to

26:44

back it up. But who

26:46

knows what we'll find in the future. After

26:49

all, scientists are solving supernova

26:51

mysteries all the time. Like

26:54

a new study that has finally

26:56

solved a long-standing mystery of the

26:58

naked stars. Researchers studying

27:00

supernovae often found that the exploding

27:02

stars were missing their usual outer

27:05

layer of hydrogen. They

27:07

were stripped down to just their helium

27:09

core. But it wasn't known

27:11

where this outer layer was going. And

27:14

now astronomers have for the first time been

27:16

able to see how these stars are ending

27:18

up stripped naked. It turns out

27:21

their companion stars are to blame. Dr.

27:23

Maria Drought is an assistant professor in

27:26

the Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics at

27:28

the University of Toronto. She led the

27:30

study. Dr. Drought, welcome back

27:32

to Quirks and Quarks. Thank you for having

27:34

me. So what was the mystery

27:36

you were trying to solve? Well, this

27:38

was something that had been a mystery

27:41

for a few decades and really since

27:43

about 10 years ago. As you said,

27:45

we had this set of supernovae, my

27:47

background mostly is studying supernova. And when

27:49

we see them explode, we have about

27:51

one in three of these stars explode without

27:54

any hydrogen left, which is not what we

27:56

expect a star just evolving and moving throughout

27:58

its life to look like. And it was

28:00

quite a lot of them. But we

28:02

had one possible solution. One

28:04

was that we actually know that massive

28:06

stars, ones that will explode, quite often

28:08

are not living their lives alone. They

28:11

often come in pairs. They have binary

28:13

companions, so two stars orbiting around each

28:15

other. And not only that, we actually

28:17

have known for about a decade or so that most

28:19

of them are in binary pairs. And most

28:22

of them actually are close enough to their

28:24

binary companions that we think as these

28:26

stars evolve and expand throughout their lives,

28:28

you reach this point where actually

28:30

the outer layers of one of

28:32

these stars actually become

28:34

more, feel more gravitational pull,

28:36

not to the stars part of, but

28:38

towards the binary companions. The outer layers get

28:41

pulled off. So we actually thought we saw

28:43

these supernovae. We think they need some way

28:45

to remove the hydrogen. And we also had all

28:47

of these binary stars that we observe. And we

28:50

thought, well, if we just think we understand how

28:52

stars evolve, these stars should have their outer envelopes

28:54

removed by their binary companions. So we had sort

28:56

of each sides of these. But

28:59

there was a problem. We didn't actually

29:01

know of any system where you actually

29:03

have two stars still. And one

29:05

of them is sitting there. And the other one doesn't have

29:07

any hydrogen left. So

29:09

the idea is that one star strips the

29:11

clothing off the other star. Basically, yes. Just

29:15

the gravity is strong enough. It pulls it right off.

29:18

Now, how did you know these stripped stars

29:20

even existed? Yeah, so we

29:22

knew that they should exist. And we think

29:24

they should exist because that's our best explanation

29:27

for why so many supernovae explode without hydrogen.

29:29

So we really thought they should exist. We

29:31

just hadn't seen them. So we were left

29:33

with this conundrum. Either we're just not looking

29:36

in the right way, or

29:38

they really are rare. And that means

29:40

our physical models, both for how stars evolve

29:42

and where these supernovae are coming from,

29:44

are wrong. Those were our two options. Well,

29:47

what makes these stripped stars so hard to

29:49

see? So as it turns

29:51

out, what makes them really hard to see is

29:54

that they're really hot. So

29:56

if you think about it, what these stripped stars are

29:59

is basically the core. of what was the

30:01

original stars. Had its outer layers of hydrogen

30:03

removed, and so it's this very hot helium

30:05

core. They're small, and they're hot. And

30:07

so they emit, actually, most of their light,

30:09

not invisible light that we can see with

30:11

our own eyes, but out in the extreme

30:14

ultraviolet. So how are you able

30:16

to go about seeing them? So

30:18

this is hard to look in

30:20

the ultraviolet, as it turns out, because Earth's atmosphere

30:22

is in the way. It blocks ultraviolet light,

30:24

which is great for us as humans. It

30:26

would be much worse for our skin care

30:28

if we had lots of ultraviolet light coming

30:30

all the way down to the surface. But

30:32

that means we can't use telescopes here on

30:34

Earth to actually look for ultraviolet light. We

30:37

have to use satellites. So the Hubble Space

30:39

Telescope is very good at looking at ultraviolet

30:41

light, but it only looks at pretty small

30:43

patches of the sky at a time. So

30:45

the real breakthrough, we actually started this project

30:47

all the way back in 2016. And

30:49

at that point, very recently, a satellite called

30:52

the SWIFT mission, which has a UV

30:54

telescope on board, had taken, it

30:56

took an immense amount of time to do 150 or

30:58

200 pointings of this telescope to

31:02

map out the large and small Magellanic

31:04

clouds, which are satellite galaxies near our

31:07

own Milky Way, in ultraviolet light. And

31:10

it was really this treasure trove of data.

31:12

So we went through this process of

31:14

taking that data set and measuring

31:16

how bright are millions of stars

31:19

in the ultraviolet. And looking

31:21

for, we found a few hundred of them

31:23

that seemed to have extra light there, which

31:25

might indicate there was something else going on,

31:27

besides just the star we could see when

31:29

looking at visible light. Wow.

31:31

So how did you determine that it is

31:33

actually a binary pair with one of them

31:35

stripped of hydrogen? Yeah. So then

31:37

you go. So you have a set of stars that might

31:39

be this. And then you have to go get more data.

31:41

So we thought, using a telescope in

31:44

Chile called the Magellan telescopes, we

31:46

got spectra of these objects. So

31:49

once where you break up all of their light

31:51

into their individual wavelengths, and then you can actually

31:53

see things like what elements are present in the

31:56

atmosphere and other details like that. So we were

31:58

able to use these spectra to say. These

32:00

objects are very hot and they

32:02

also are hydrogen poor. So we

32:04

were able to put together this picture

32:07

where you can say, yes, these stars actually

32:09

are incredibly hot, they're lacking in hydrogen, and

32:11

we could also see the motion of these

32:14

stars over time indicating

32:16

that they actually are in a binary pair

32:18

and orbiting around each other. So you

32:20

sort of found a missing link in stellar evolution

32:22

here. Absolutely. Just

32:24

one last thing. If

32:26

these stars were to explode up there

32:28

in the Magellanic clouds, would they be

32:30

visible on Earth, possibly on an evening

32:32

just around Christmas time? Absolutely.

32:36

So the Magellanic clouds are

32:38

very close to us. There

32:40

actually was a supernova that exploded there

32:42

back in 1987. It was

32:45

called Supernova 1987A, and you could see

32:47

it just with your naked eye out

32:49

in the night sky. So any supernova

32:51

that close would absolutely be visible. Unfortunately,

32:54

these stars, we're pretty sure we understand

32:56

what phase in their evolution they're in and

32:58

they probably won't explode for a million years or

33:00

so. Ah, okay.

33:04

Dr. Drought, thank you so much for your time. Excellent.

33:07

Thank you very much, Bob. Dr. Maria Drought

33:09

is an assistant professor in the Department

33:11

of Astronomy and Astrophysics at the University

33:13

of Toronto. And,

33:26

of course, a show about seasonal

33:29

science should definitely include something about

33:31

miracle babies. It's

33:36

okay, Jackson. Born more than three

33:38

months prematurely, twins Jackson and

33:40

Paisley had a slim chance

33:43

of survival. Marry and go.

33:45

For 83 days, their mother Amy

33:48

has been at their bedsides inside

33:50

the Neonatal Intensive Care Unit,

33:52

or NICU, at Toronto's Mount

33:54

Sinai Hospital. It was tough.

33:57

They were pretty sick when they were first born. And

34:01

every day it was, we were living

34:03

like a minute by minute sort of

34:06

thing, and it's been

34:08

getting a lot better. About

34:10

8% of babies

34:12

born in Canada are premature, and

34:15

medical science has made enormous advancements

34:17

in caring for them. These

34:20

days with intensive neonatal care, infants

34:22

born up to three months early

34:24

can have an excellent chance at

34:26

survival. But the

34:28

sad truth is that survival drops off

34:30

quickly after that. Babies

34:32

born at 25 weeks survive a little over 80% of

34:34

the time. At 23 weeks it's 50-50, and

34:40

survival rates drop precipitously after

34:42

that. It's very difficult for

34:44

an infant born at 21 weeks or

34:47

earlier to survive. But

34:49

we may soon be able to change those

34:52

odds. In September, the

34:54

U.S. Food and Drug Administration,

34:56

which regulates medical devices, met

34:59

to discuss the latest science

35:01

behind artificial wombs. The

35:03

science has had some dramatic results. Several

35:06

years ago, photos of a lamb

35:08

in a bag, the tiny animal

35:10

in an artificial womb, were released,

35:13

showing how far this technology has come. Canadian

35:16

scientists have worked with fetal pigs in

35:19

their version of the artificial womb, and

35:22

soon this technology could be used

35:24

for humans. Christoph

35:26

Holler was part of the Canadian

35:28

research group. Dr. Holler is a

35:30

cardiovascular surgeon at Toronto's Hospital for

35:32

Sick Children and an assistant professor

35:34

in the Department of Surgery at

35:36

the University of Toronto. Dr.

35:39

Holler, welcome to Quarks and Quarks.

35:41

Thank you. First of all, when

35:43

it comes to anatomy, how are

35:45

fetuses different from infants? The

35:47

fetus is not built yet to

35:50

live outside of the womb. There

35:53

is still a maturing and a

35:55

lot of maturation and preparation occurs

35:57

that prepares the fetus for life

36:00

in basically the environment that we

36:02

are in. And the environment of the

36:04

womb is liquid as well. Yeah,

36:07

I think that is a very striking

36:09

difference. Obviously, that there is no gas

36:12

exchange the way we are

36:14

used to it, like an air gas

36:16

exchange using the lungs. That's

36:18

probably one of the key

36:20

organs that limits survival of

36:23

those born at the very

36:25

premature end. So how does

36:27

this unique anatomy of the fetus

36:29

influence the development of technologies like

36:32

an artificial placenta? I think what

36:34

we've learned over many years of

36:36

experience in the very premature born

36:39

patients is

36:41

that a lot of comorbidity,

36:43

a lot of mortality arises from

36:45

us trying to make

36:47

organ systems work in basically

36:50

environment that they are not made for. So

36:53

we try to ventilate a lung that's not

36:55

ready for gas exchange. We try to

36:58

mitigate injury that we're inflicting

37:00

thereby. And

37:02

I think that's where the whole

37:05

research is aiming for. Well,

37:07

what are some of the risks

37:09

associated with being born very premature?

37:12

The highest risk group are those

37:14

born at the age of basically

37:16

22 weeks, up

37:18

to probably 24, 26 weeks. That's

37:22

kind of the group of patients

37:24

that face a mortality rate that

37:26

is very, very high. Well,

37:29

what would be the benefits of

37:31

an artificial womb compared to the

37:33

technology that's currently used to help

37:36

premature babies? The idea is to

37:39

mitigate the injury that happens once you

37:41

take them out of their intrauterine

37:44

environment, and instead

37:47

basically try to preserve their physiology. Well,

37:49

take me through the artificial womb, the

37:51

technology, first of all, what's it look

37:53

like and what are the different components?

37:57

I think the key components

37:59

are most... all an oxygenator

38:01

that tries to replace the placenta.

38:03

And what the oxygenator does is

38:05

basically it allows for

38:08

gas exchange so that we're taking

38:10

out CO2 out

38:13

of the fetal blood and allow O2

38:15

to be transported back to the fetus.

38:17

That is, in our case and in

38:20

many other groups done through

38:22

the umbilical cord, pretty similar to

38:24

what it

38:26

would be in the case of normal

38:28

fetal physiology. That is

38:31

the key component focusing on basically

38:33

allowing the lungs not to work

38:35

and mature, still maintaining gas exchange.

38:38

But there are other components like

38:40

the environment that is more referred

38:43

to as a womb, basically the

38:45

liquid environment that the fetus is

38:47

preserved in. But that's still a far

38:50

simplification of the complexity of

38:53

basically a true

38:55

intrauterine environment. So

38:57

there's a liquid environment that the

38:59

fetus is put into and then

39:01

you tap into the umbilical cord.

39:05

Besides just oxygen, what else are you feeding

39:07

it? That's a good

39:10

point. Obviously, the placenta

39:12

is not only there for gas

39:14

exchange but also for supplying

39:17

nutrition, for excreting

39:19

certain substances. What we do

39:21

is we provide basically parenteral

39:24

nutrition to the fetus through

39:26

that system as well. Now

39:28

I know that this

39:30

hasn't been done on human subjects yet,

39:33

but how would that work if you've

39:35

got a baby that's in the

39:37

mother's womb and you want to put it

39:39

into this artificial one? How do

39:41

you do that? So imagine a

39:44

cesarean section where you gain access

39:46

to the umbilical cord and then

39:48

you basically cannulate those cord vessels

39:51

to the new system before you

39:53

actually clamp the cord. And once basically

39:56

that transition happens, you can detach the

39:58

fetus and get it in. into that

40:01

new artificial environment. So

40:03

in the end, what does your artificial womb

40:05

actually look like? At the moment, this

40:07

is basically a

40:10

fluid-filled bag-like system

40:13

that utilizes otherwise clinical

40:15

available equipment. But it's

40:17

basically systems that are

40:19

used in cardiac surgery

40:22

and in lung disease

40:24

and thoracic surgery and things like

40:26

that to provide oxygen and blood

40:28

flow in the body. So we

40:30

are repurposing this, basically, equipment in

40:34

this setting. So

40:36

just to summarize, then, the artificial

40:38

womb now is just basically a bag

40:40

of fluid that's hooked up to a

40:42

bunch of equipment that's already used in

40:44

hospitals, like ventilators, dialysis machines, mechanical pumps

40:47

to help the fetus breathe. Yeah. And

40:49

I think that highlights also where

40:52

this research is going. I think, in

40:55

our opinion, a lot of these repurposed

40:57

equipment structures, they need to be

41:00

tailor-made for the purpose from a

41:03

hemodynamic perspective, from a

41:05

gas exchange perspective, and

41:08

from the hormonal waste

41:10

excretion perspective as well.

41:13

How much do you think this technology

41:15

could improve the survival rates of extremely

41:17

premature babies? I think

41:19

even changing prematurity

41:21

from a 22-weeker to a 24-weeker or

41:24

a 24-weeker to a 26-weeker already has

41:28

such a substantial impact on the

41:30

outcome that I

41:32

think if it works clinically

41:34

in humans, that would have

41:36

a substantial impact on how

41:38

medicine is run in these

41:40

infants and what the outcome

41:42

might be. So it's

41:44

a matter of buying days. I think in

41:46

the early stages, yes, it is. So

41:48

how far do you think we are from human

41:51

trials in the artificial womb? It's always

41:53

a tough call. And probably pushing

41:55

too quickly to clinical translation can

41:57

set the field back as well.

42:00

But I think we

42:02

have the means to make it

42:04

happen. You know, development of technology,

42:06

tailor making, custom apparatus, et cetera,

42:08

has become way more easy than

42:11

it has been, let's say,

42:13

10 years ago. So

42:15

I think that we're all set

42:17

to make it happen. The

42:19

timelines, you know, to be

42:21

honest, I think everything's just a guess. Dr.

42:24

Holler, thank you so much for your time. Thank

42:26

you very much for the interview. Christoph

42:29

Holler is a cardiovascular surgeon at Toronto's

42:31

Hospital for Sick Children and an assistant

42:33

professor in the Department of Surgery at

42:35

the University of Toronto. With

42:38

current medical technology, we have a

42:40

handle on the very beginning of

42:42

an embryo's existence, IVF,

42:45

or in vitro fertilization. What

42:48

used to be called test tube babies is

42:50

practically routine these days. And

42:53

as we just heard, the artificial womb

42:55

technology we're currently developing may help

42:58

us take over the end of gestation

43:01

and help babies born well before they reach

43:03

full term starting from 22 or 24 weeks.

43:07

But in between, a mother's

43:10

womb is absolutely

43:12

unequivocally necessary. But

43:15

is there a way we could move

43:17

gestation to an artificial womb even earlier?

43:20

Or even think about gestation

43:22

entirely outside the womb? The

43:26

key is probably in understanding one

43:28

singular organ, the placenta. In

43:31

the artificial womb setup, the placenta

43:33

is replaced by machines, replaced by

43:35

machines that feed oxygen and nutrients

43:37

to the newborn. But

43:40

that's only a fraction of all the

43:42

placenta does in utero, particularly

43:44

in early development. Miriam

43:47

Hemberger has learned just how much it

43:49

does in her studies of the placenta

43:51

in mice. Dr. Hemberger

43:53

is a professor in the Department of

43:55

Biochemistry and Molecular Biology and the

43:57

Department of Medical Genetics at the University of Colorado.

44:00

Calgary, where her work is

44:02

helping reveal how complicated the

44:04

placenta's role really is. So

44:07

it turns out that the

44:09

placenta has key roles in

44:11

directing development of both

44:13

the heart and the brain. It has

44:16

become clear from research in mice that

44:19

the heart can

44:22

be fundamentally wrong in

44:24

its development only

44:26

because there are deficits in the

44:28

placenta. So you're saying that

44:30

the placenta is not just a life

44:33

support system, it's actually sending signals to

44:35

the embryo telling it how to grow

44:37

properly. That is correct. In artificial placenta

44:40

is the function of oxygen, nutrient exchange

44:42

between mom and the fetus gets replaced

44:44

with some medical equipment. Is that enough

44:47

to substitute for a placenta earlier in

44:49

development? A key question

44:51

here will really be when

44:53

we would substitute the

44:55

placenta with an artificial system.

44:58

So many of the

45:00

key processes take place very

45:02

early in development where specific

45:04

cell populations are set aside

45:06

to form particular organ

45:09

systems and then drive

45:11

their normal differentiation. So

45:13

this happens in the mouse in the

45:15

first half of gestation and in humans

45:17

in the first trimester. But

45:19

this is not to say that after the

45:22

first trimester the placenta switches

45:24

to a solely nutritional role

45:27

because for example brain

45:29

development really

45:31

has fundamental processes

45:33

happening well into the

45:35

third trimester. But it's also

45:37

when very pivotal connections

45:39

between neurons are made so

45:42

that wiring that takes place

45:44

during the third trimester. And

45:47

if we now only provide

45:49

an embryo with

45:52

sugar and oxygen that is

45:54

possibly not enough to get

45:56

all that wiring correct. Would

45:59

It be possible? The old to learn

46:01

the signals that the placenta sans

46:03

to the fetus in in terms

46:06

of how to develop and maybe

46:08

duplicate those signals artificially. In

46:11

series, yes, but it requires

46:13

a deep understanding of what

46:15

these signals earth and so

46:17

they quantities of these signals.

46:19

Because so often this the

46:21

Goldilocks situations where it is

46:23

urgent, just the right amount

46:25

of the right thing and

46:28

the right combination of things.

46:30

So we would really need

46:32

to know precisely the hormones

46:34

that growth factors the other

46:36

signaling molecules of the placenta

46:38

might send to the embryo

46:40

and. Six. Get their composition

46:42

rights as well as the exact amounts

46:44

of them. So what are we starting

46:47

to learn about some of these hormones

46:49

and signals that need to be considered

46:51

in some future artificial womb? Now.

46:53

Really a for example,

46:55

know have to hormones

46:58

that sort of. Squat

47:01

attention in the literature as

47:03

the one Six Zero Tone

47:05

and. Serotonin is

47:07

a key was born of

47:10

that's drive sneer a deeper

47:12

look minutes during see critical

47:14

time points interest to east

47:17

and there are particular time

47:19

window was in development at

47:21

when the serotonin is. Only

47:24

made by the placenta and brought

47:26

into the seals but secure. Listen

47:28

to them make those neural connections

47:31

and the correct difference. the eastern

47:33

of those brain cells another her

47:35

home on is called up. ten

47:38

are upon us also made by

47:40

the placenta but not only by

47:42

the placenta and a pena is

47:45

very important for her development. so

47:47

again that's another example that really

47:49

pleasantly produced sector A Success Hormones

47:52

site. Appliance. Other

47:55

molecules they can

47:57

drive subs differentiation,

47:59

proliferation, The key role

48:01

in. Making. The

48:03

babies difference is just right

48:05

as opposed to see a

48:08

growth. Is there anything else

48:10

about the environment inside the uterus that would

48:12

be missing in an artificial womb set up?

48:15

So the oxygen concentration seems

48:17

during development. As such that

48:19

in the first trimester the

48:21

embryo develops in their hypoxic

48:23

environments. Because there's really not

48:25

yet to any blood flow

48:27

through the placenta, some new

48:29

maternal blood comes into the

48:31

placenta end of the correct

48:33

different station of both epicenter

48:36

and the embryo. Rely on

48:38

this hypoxic environments and it

48:40

is only in the second

48:42

trimester that much slow into

48:44

the placenta. Six in and

48:46

thereby delivers more oxygen and

48:48

again that is of course

48:51

pivotal to than make the

48:53

next steps off development happen

48:55

properly and we need to

48:57

get these oxygen concentrations also.

49:00

Correct If he were to

49:03

imagine artificial womb systems to

49:05

ensure that all of these

49:07

processes occur at the correct

49:10

time and the correct way.

49:12

Okay, so currently artificial wombs.

49:15

Are discussed as a way of helping

49:17

baby survived past the twenty second week

49:19

of just Station. Given your research to

49:21

this technology worked for babies born even

49:24

earlier than that. Of. That is

49:26

difficult to answer because there

49:28

are so many aspects of

49:30

research that still have to

49:32

happen both on the development

49:34

of or suffer from whom

49:36

systems as well as on

49:39

a profound understanding of the

49:41

placenta and it's precise functions

49:43

and development of placenta has

49:45

been notoriously understudied and neglect

49:47

it's and research syllabuses. one

49:49

of the aspects were our

49:51

and my colleagues work has

49:53

really been the promoted that.

49:55

Area to appreciates the

49:57

multi forward and multifaceted.

50:00

functions of the plus-center in

50:02

a much better way. So

50:05

it will be tricky to

50:09

replace the plus-center either

50:11

entirely or even earlier

50:14

than 22 weeks or even from 22 weeks onwards because after all

50:19

there are so many aspects that we need to get

50:21

right. Dr. Hemberger, thank you so much

50:23

for your time. Thank you. Thank

50:25

you for having me. Dr. Miriam Hemberger

50:27

is a professor at the University of

50:29

Calgary and program director

50:32

of precision medicine and disease

50:34

mechanism at the Alberta Children's

50:36

Hospital Research Institute. She

50:38

also holds the Canada Research

50:40

Chair in developmental genetics and

50:42

epigenetics. And now

50:45

it's time for the works of works listener question.

50:48

Well, hello, my children.

50:54

Hi,

51:01

this is Gail Dowell. I live

51:03

in Port Coquitlam, British Columbia, but

51:06

Santa lives in the North Pole where

51:09

there's a lot of snow and it's very

51:11

cold. So my question is,

51:14

why don't Santa's reindeer's legs freeze?

51:16

Why don't any deer's legs

51:19

freeze? Thank you. To

51:22

get the answer, we go

51:24

to Stephanie Leonard. She's the

51:26

environmental coordinator at the Sinawachi

51:28

Winowak Nation in Alberta and

51:30

project manager for their Caribou

51:32

patrol program. Ms. Leonard, welcome

51:35

to our program. Happy to be here. Thank

51:37

you for having me. Now deer legs look pretty

51:39

skinny. What do we know about how they can handle

51:41

the cold? Well, like

51:43

many animals that live in cold

51:45

areas, Santa's reindeer and other deer

51:48

have a lot of adaptations for

51:50

cold temperatures. They are

51:52

insulated by thick hair during the winter,

51:54

which traps warm air next to their

51:56

skin. If You were to cut one

51:59

of their long guard. There and look under

52:01

it. Under a microscope he would see

52:03

that it's hello and filled with pockets

52:05

of air that provide extra insulation. Wow.

52:08

Okay so others in there for does he

52:10

have any other adaptations to make sure that

52:12

there are skinny legs know? freeze? They

52:15

do yes, reindeer and the or lower

52:17

legs are mostly tendons, ligaments, and keratin,

52:20

which are less sensitive to the cold

52:22

so they don't need to keep their

52:24

legs as warm as the rest of

52:27

their body. Reindeer also

52:29

have what's called a counter current

52:31

heat exchange. This is an arrangement

52:33

of arteries and veins which means

52:35

that as blood moves into the

52:37

animals extremity is like a flags.

52:39

He is transferred from warm blood

52:42

flowing from the heart to cold

52:44

blood flowing from the legs. This

52:46

makes her the animal doesn't lose

52:48

heat and keeps warm blood near

52:50

the center of the body where

52:52

it's needed. Wow. Snubbed

52:54

or a person or us about Ranger

52:57

I know they're also called Caribou or

52:59

Turbo Legs and you're like similar. Yes,

53:02

all the animals in the dear

53:04

family have a similar adaptation in

53:06

their legs to help keep them

53:08

from getting too cold and allow

53:10

them to move through the snow.

53:13

What? Is this their legs? What about their feet? Or

53:16

their feet, like most ungulates,

53:18

are a whose sole their.

53:20

It's kind of just like

53:22

your tough fingernails and that's

53:24

the only part that tends

53:26

to touch the ground. And

53:28

there's no nerves or blood

53:30

vessels in that section, so

53:33

there's nothing to keep warm.

53:35

and it keeps any area

53:37

that has the blood vessels

53:39

away from contact with the

53:41

cold ground. Just.

53:43

One last thing: is there

53:46

any scientific evidence in Ranger

53:48

Legs that. Tells

53:50

you how they know how to fly. unfortunately

53:53

that is a secret only santa

53:55

can tell us we've been looking

53:58

into it but our reindeer and

54:00

our caribou don't seem to know

54:02

that particular secret. Ms.

54:06

Leonard, thank you so much for your time. Thank

54:08

you so much for having me. Stephanie

54:10

Leonard is the environmental coordinator

54:13

at the Sinawachi Winowak Nation

54:15

in Alberta and project manager

54:17

for their caribou patrol program.

54:22

And that's it for Quarks and Quarks this week. If

54:24

you'd like to get in touch

54:27

with us, our email is quarks

54:29

at cbc.ca or just go to

54:31

the contact link in our webpage

54:33

at cbc.ca/Quarks, where you can

54:35

read my latest blog or listen to

54:37

our audio archives. You can also follow

54:39

our podcast or get us on the

54:42

CBC Listen app. It's free from the app store

54:44

or Google Play. Quarks

54:47

and Quarks was produced by Olsi

54:49

Sorokhana, Amanda Buckowitz, Sonya Biting and

54:51

Mark Crawley. Our senior producer is

54:53

Jim Lebens. I'm Bob

54:55

McDonald, all the best for the

54:57

holiday season.