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1:40

Hey, Ellyn. Hi, How

1:42

are you doing? I'm good. How are you?

1:44

I am good, and I am super super

1:46

excited for today's guests and for today's

1:48

episode. It's gonna

1:49

be great. Should we just dive right in?

1:51

think we should dive right in. You guys are gonna love

1:54

love our guests. So this week, oh my gosh,

1:56

I am so excited. He was one of the first people I

1:58

reached out to when we decided to do this show and I've been

2:00

a fan for

2:01

years. I wanna welcome onto our show

2:03

the amazing monster Thank

2:06

you, Robbie. I love that you put amazing

2:08

in there. You know, stand up comedians.

2:11

We make merchandise. And one of

2:13

the things that I came up with was a t shirt

2:15

that says I'm a

2:18

and then MAZ ING.

2:20

I'm Amazing. You

2:22

get

2:23

it?

2:23

You have to brand yourself.

2:26

Ma's Amazing. It's

2:28

all about the branding, Maz. I

2:30

I get it, and I knew all no. I knew nothing about

2:32

that. But that look, again, amazing. But I also wanna

2:35

tell people why you're amazing because I'm gonna brag about

2:37

little bit if that's okay? Renaissance man.

2:39

Here's what Maz Ma's a comedian actor.

2:42

He's also a podcaster, by the way, called

2:44

back to school with Maz on the

2:46

All Things Comedy Network. He's got a

2:48

new comedy special called Pandemic Warrior.

2:50

Is it still new? Because it says new on your website,

2:52

but also I've seen you live a couple of times,

2:54

I mean, amazing. And people should we'll

2:57

recognize you from TV. You've been on Grey's Anatomy,

2:59

curb your enthusiasm. I mean, you're always

3:01

on Wait Wait. Don't tell me. I need that

3:03

hookup, by the way. Yeah.

3:04

Why haven't you been on Wait Wait. Don't tell me? That's

3:06

I I don't matter. You're gonna matter.

3:09

Ravi, Ravi, I'm gonna get you the

3:11

gig, and I won't even take ten

3:12

percent. Oh

3:13

my gosh. Will you be on it with me? Can we

3:15

do this together? Yeah. That

3:16

was a good question. I'll give you the I'll give you

3:18

twenty. So you were also a host of the forty

3:20

fifth International incredible. And

3:23

this is how I first got to know Maz is that you

3:25

remember your founding member of the Axis

3:27

of Evil comedy tour. Which

3:29

was on comedy central. And I I gotta

3:32

say, as an American Malcom, that

3:34

was like the first kind of subversive in

3:36

your face, okay, you're gonna call us, like, terrorist

3:39

and evil. We're gonna be the axis of evil

3:41

comedy tour. It was I mean, it just meant

3:43

so much to our community. And so I

3:45

mean, like, it it was hilarious. Okay. People still

3:47

find

3:47

it. First

3:48

of all, thank you again for watching all this

3:50

stuff. I love

3:50

you for watching it, and I love you for getting

3:52

it. Because, you know, the the the interesting thing

3:54

is when you make material, you do your

3:57

shows, and then some people get it, like you.

3:59

And some people, like, they're like, oh, you're making fun

4:01

of our culture. I'm like, no. The whole point

4:03

is to have people laugh with us

4:05

so they understand that we're that

4:07

we laugh. So, yeah, that that's on that's probably

4:09

on YouTube. A lot of those clips are on YouTube.

4:12

If want I always tell people if they wanna see, like,

4:14

a special that's that's readily available,

4:16

I have a Netflix one called Immigrant, or

4:19

YouTube. If there's no Jobrani on

4:21

YouTube, there's a ton of stuff a lot.

4:24

I love that your humor leans into

4:26

darkness because I love self

4:28

deprecating humor and you do

4:30

that so well and would

4:32

you imitate your parents and,

4:35

you know, since you're Iranian born,

4:37

I feel like you really lean into that

4:40

humor that could make some

4:42

people clutch their pearls and think, oh

4:44

my god, could he say stuff like that? And

4:47

you just you know, it's not set up

4:49

in punchline type of humor. You're such

4:51

a great storyteller. I just think that's

4:53

something that you master so well. It's that

4:55

satire

4:57

coupled with awareness. I

4:59

I just love it. I mean, it's completely

5:01

cathartic for those of us who go through this

5:03

shit. It's like, thank you for saying that and making

5:05

fun of the absurdly of it. Right. And

5:08

also putting honestly,

5:10

American with some comics on the map with the

5:12

acts of evil. That's what did it. That started that

5:14

whole ball rolling. Everybody else has some knowledge.

5:16

All those people, they got you to thank for that.

5:19

Well, I love you for saying that. Yeah. You know,

5:21

we just I I don't think we timed anything in

5:23

any way. It was just that we happen to be doing

5:25

stand up when all that happened, and

5:27

we were the only game in town, and so that

5:29

came together as Access Eagle Special. And I

5:31

agree with you, Ellen, that I

5:34

like comcomedy that talks

5:36

about social or political issues.

5:39

And, you know, as an Iranian American, it's very complicated

5:41

because Ellyn in in immigrant I talk about, I go, I'm

5:44

not Ellyn, like, I'm not even really practicing

5:46

Muslim. I go on Muslim ish, you know.

5:48

It's like, I don't wanna represent anybody because I don't

5:50

wanna disappoint anybody. Sometimes people will come

5:52

on and be like, oh, you say you're a Muslim, but you had a drink.

5:54

I go, yeah, I drink. I don't fast turn it

5:56

on. Thanks

5:57

a lot to mosque. Like, a few months

5:59

ago. I'm I'm not saying anymore. I just say,

6:01

hey, Maz. It is complicated because as an Iranian

6:04

as well, we have, like, the movements happening in

6:06

Iran, where women just want their freedom

6:09

to choose. Yeah. You know, some people

6:11

are going, oh, this is an anti Muslim, anti

6:13

head job movement. I go, no, it's not. It's approach

6:16

choice movement. Yeah. Because, yeah, lot of people

6:18

in Iran are saying, we don't we don't care

6:20

if you wanna cover yourself up. That's great.

6:22

And then you shouldn't have worry if you don't

6:24

wanna cover yourself. I mean, here's the percent. The

6:26

problem with that and with what the, you know,

6:29

we all know Malcom dominated society. And

6:31

and and, Rabia, you know, trying

6:33

to get Americans to care about what's

6:35

going on in another country is like,

6:37

they they don't care about what's going on in their own country.

6:39

Much less Yeah. The way I told people

6:41

about Iran was I said, look, the

6:44

waitmen of Iran because what happened was when the Islamic

6:46

Republic the what happened the

6:48

revolution happened, Quickly they

6:50

were like, okay, men you wear whatever you want.

6:53

Women, cover yourselves up. So who's that an

6:55

attack on? That's an attack on women? You know, I got

6:57

a chance speak at some schools, and I was trying to

6:59

explain to them. I said, you guys might be thinking, oh, this has

7:01

nothing to do with us. I go, no. They're taking

7:03

women's rights away. In twenty

7:05

twenty two in America. Right now,

7:08

this was the the right to choose an abortion.

7:10

I'm not saying I'm pro abortion or anti abortion.

7:12

I'm pro choice Right. And so

7:15

I told people and I tried to equate it.

7:17

I go, once they go after women, then they go after

7:19

LGBT queue, which is what Clarence Thomas

7:21

said, he goes, we're gonna look at gay marriage next.

7:23

They go after religious minorities, then

7:26

on and on and on. So I'd say Iran

7:28

is a cautionary tale of

7:30

what could happen in America. So people

7:32

need to pay attention and support

7:35

those people. Thank you for saying

7:36

that. Yeah. I just I love how you sneak in

7:39

the lessons. It's it's so

7:41

smart. And speaking of

7:43

smart, I know you're Iranian born

7:45

and you were raised in Tiburon. Yes.

7:47

And I read

7:49

that you went to UC Berkeley. Now, I'm

7:51

Oakland born and I was born in Berkeley.

7:54

And for those of you who don't know, the acceptance

7:56

rate Stanford is something like, I don't know, seven

7:58

or eight percent. And the acceptance

8:00

rate to Berkeley is like point

8:02

four

8:03

two. You really have to dose stuff to

8:05

get accepted to Berkeley. Well, let

8:07

me let me stop you right there. First of all, I played

8:09

soccer so that helped me get in. I had pretty

8:11

good I had good grades. I was good at math. My

8:13

SAT and English was not as good,

8:15

but soccer helped. That's why, you know, you gotta

8:17

do sports. It really helps. Or some

8:20

have some skill But once I

8:22

got in, I really, like, leaned into that

8:24

school. What a great school. It taught

8:26

me, you know, they encourage you to think

8:28

critically. Study where you premed, like, the rest

8:30

of us. No. Malcom

8:33

wanted me. My mom and dad wanted me to be

8:35

a lawyer. And here's the thing. At the age of

8:37

twelve, I started doing plays

8:39

and I fell in love with being on

8:41

stage. And I was actually

8:42

a good nightmare for every immigrant parent. Oh

8:44

my god. Yeah. I'm telling you, my are

8:47

we allowed to cuss on this at all or Yeah. Okay.

8:49

Good. So so, like, I would I

8:51

I did this play, and then my parents would

8:53

come see it. And then and then at the afterwards,

8:56

the the director would be like, you know, your son

8:58

has the skill to do this. He could do this. And my

9:00

dad, oh, great. Great. We get in the car, my

9:02

dad be like, dad bitch is crazy. Don't listen

9:04

to her. You're gonna be a little different

9:06

parent. So my junior year, I decided

9:09

to go to Italy study abroad, which

9:11

I highly recommend if there's any college

9:13

students listening to this right now

9:16

enroll in a language and study

9:18

abroad, your junior year, not semester

9:20

year. It's it's very important. So almost

9:23

did a semester. People go, no. A semester is when you

9:25

start kinda getting into the groove. So I

9:27

did a year abroad in in

9:28

Italy. Then I decided, you know what? Because there was

9:30

this professor there, and then was Ensopache. been

9:32

Gensopache. I like how when you

9:34

said that name, you gave little Italian fingers.

9:37

You guys you can't see it. But as an

9:39

Italian, I appreciate your You gotta do the Italian.

9:41

And then he had, like, a goatee and he had, like,

9:43

professorial blazer and they need

9:45

a pocket watch. And I just I was like, this

9:47

dude. It's cool. So then I was like, alright. You

9:49

know what? I'll be a professor. So I came back,

9:51

got into graduate school at UCLA for

9:54

Pauli sci. And I started

9:56

there and it's interesting because

9:58

again, I wanted to get back and act

10:00

thing. Maz

10:00

that the era where Hollywood was like, we want

10:02

you, but only as tariffs, number four? Pretty

10:04

much. It was so it was basically it would

10:07

be nineteen ninety eight. Was a gentleman

10:09

by the name of Joe Rein. And he

10:11

was a sweet, sweet guy, and he goes,

10:14

he was always complimenting people. He goes, you know, you

10:16

have good comedic time. I mean, have you ever thought about

10:18

doing this professionally? I said, Joe, when I was

10:20

a kid, my teacher said do it, blah blah

10:22

blah blah blah blah. Then I said, but Joe, my parents

10:24

told me Don't do it. And Joe

10:26

goes, listen. There's some things I wanted

10:29

to do in my life that I never got

10:31

to. So because if you really wanna do it,

10:33

do it now. And it was a wake up call. And I was

10:35

like, oh my god. He's right. So right away, I enrolled

10:38

in sketch comedy classes, which

10:40

led to stand up comedy classes, which

10:43

then led to, like, going out on auditions.

10:45

Yeah. As you say, Robbie, when I got into Hollywood,

10:47

like, the first audition I got was

10:50

for a security guard on a TV

10:52

show called Chicago. Oh, and I go, okay.

10:54

That's pretty cool. Remember that? Yeah. Second audition

10:57

I got was for a terrorist on Walker

10:59

Texas Rangers. And I was like,

11:02

and then I ended up getting they offered

11:04

me both parts, and I was like screw the terrorist

11:06

part. I'm gonna do the, you

11:08

know, the

11:08

security guard, the security guard. And I did it.

11:11

But then after that, the terrorist

11:13

stuff started creeping in more and more, and I

11:15

told my agents, I said no more

11:17

terrorist parts. And then

11:19

the TV show twenty four called up.

11:21

Now twenty four

11:23

was notorious for not

11:25

telling you much about your

11:28

character's arc. They were just like, this is

11:30

what you are. So then they hit me up and

11:32

they go, they got a part for you, it a terrorist,

11:34

and I go, no thanks. And they go,

11:36

but he changes his mind halfway

11:39

through the mission. I go, oh, the

11:41

ambivalent terrorists. Yeah.

11:43

I go here we go. Nuance again. So I

11:45

did that and that was the last time I ever

11:47

played or took an audition for terrorist.

11:50

So let's jump right into three

11:52

quick things with Maz. So mods,

11:54

we're each gonna ask you a question. We ask

11:57

every guest a different question. And then

11:59

for the third question, we always ask

12:01

everyone the same

12:01

one. So, Robbie, do you wanna go first? question

12:03

I wanna ask you is, what are you watching right now

12:06

on TV? That's your favorite show. I loved Ozark.

12:08

I loved narcos. I realize I realize

12:10

I love like drug like

12:12

things that I would never do

12:14

Like, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. Out of

12:16

my world, I just love those worlds. So

12:19

I started to watch Damer and

12:21

the truth is it was too

12:22

dark. I was like, this is I'm done. Like I

12:23

haven't started it yet.

12:25

Yeah. It's it was too dark.

12:27

So you like the you like the the drug related,

12:29

like, gang stuff? All the drugs stuff is

12:31

just great. -- pause to

12:33

run. Zero context. No. Zero

12:35

context. However

12:36

Your turn now in. Your turn. Yeah. Alright.

12:38

Thanks. My question for you, Maz is

12:41

When was the last time you cried and

12:43

why?

12:43

Oh, the last time I cried and

12:45

why. That's

12:46

getting rid of the that's getting a real personal think

12:48

I I think you just prompted a dream

12:51

I had because, you know, I I've lost my sister

12:53

to breast cancer. Yeah. And I lost my

12:55

brother to addiction.

12:57

And so Right now is

12:59

that time of year because it's her birthday. It's my

13:02

sister, Malcom, October

13:04

fifteenth, and my brother, Kashy,

13:06

November second. So I

13:09

heard somewhere someone said you die twice.

13:11

Once when you die and once

13:13

the last time anyone mentions your name. Oh.

13:15

So So I try as much as I can,

13:17

like, I hate posting, like,

13:20

about them on on Instagram and stuff because I

13:22

don't want the it's not as good as I want the attention. It's

13:24

just to keep their names going for Malcom,

13:26

I've set up a scholarship for

13:28

women at UC Berkeley who wanna study

13:30

abroad. So we've been we've raised money for

13:32

for her that way. It's

13:33

incredible. But I think in my

13:35

dream, just last night, I think. I

13:37

was crying about Miriam, I think. I mean, that's

13:40

that's not real crying. That's I mean, dream

13:42

crying, but but still I think that was

13:44

that was the last time I actually

13:46

yeah. So our final question that we ask

13:49

all of our guests is how does true

13:51

crime fit into your life or

13:53

how do you consume True

13:54

Crime? I'll be honest with you. I, like,

13:56

I know it became this huge genre, and

13:59

and I just I I it was one of those things where was

14:01

like, everyone talk about cereal, cereal, cereal, which

14:03

Rabia, obviously, you were involved with. And and I

14:05

just was like, it's one of those things where I go, okay,

14:07

this is big commitment. I gotta wait till I

14:09

have the time. It's only when I see

14:11

things like, again, I'll use the

14:13

kiss against Adnan as one like

14:16

I watched that all the way

14:17

through. I was like, wow. Or I don't know if

14:19

was the night of inspired by that?

14:22

It almost really felt like it. Right?

14:24

But listen, Riz has never contacted me, so

14:26

I have no idea.

14:27

Oh, I did love the night of it

14:29

is so fascinating. What's amazing

14:32

is it's almost like how sports

14:34

commentators watch the

14:36

game from the weekend and they'll

14:38

say, he should have done this when he did that, you

14:40

know. So there's a lot of times where you're

14:43

watching something, you're

14:43

going, how could the lawyer be so incompetent,

14:46

or how

14:46

could the state not there was that other one

14:48

where Maz it how to commit a murder? Making

14:50

a murder. What was it called? Making a

14:52

murder. That one. I'm like, you're watching it

14:54

all, and you're hearing them in in in

14:56

in your mind. Yeah.

14:58

Yeah. And the boy who Maz, like, involved

15:00

was, like, his IQ is, like,

15:01

sixty

15:02

and he's, like, he's, like, killed her. Can I go back

15:04

to class? And you go, what?

15:05

Yeah. Yeah.

15:06

Yeah. Yeah. Alright. So let's

15:09

jump in. So Maz, Rabia, and I are gonna

15:11

do our little crash course, which is just an

15:13

overview for our listeners, kind of a

15:15

Wikipedia. And I'm

15:17

so glad you chose this case. We'll get into

15:19

it more. Like so many things in history, you

15:21

you just think you know these things and

15:24

you really

15:24

don't. So let's jump into

15:26

it, Rabia. So we're gonna be talking

15:28

today. Maz wants to talk about this and we wanna

15:30

talk about this about the murder of Malcolm x.

15:36

So a lot of folks are following me online

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15:44

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15:46

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15:46

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15:48

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15:49

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15:51

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15:52

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15:54

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Rabia, I feel like women don't talk about

17:09

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17:11

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17:13

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17:15

your school, your steps. We should have

17:17

the same access to that kind of tracking

17:20

with

17:20

fertility. The wait and see should

17:22

be a thing of the past, I think. I mean, it

17:24

feels like this is a long time coming, but look,

17:26

that's why modern fertility was created. It's

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slash solve the case. Here's

18:36

our crash course. It is an interesting phenomenon,

18:38

isn't it that when someone prominent is assassinated,

18:41

they become lionized. Larger in

18:43

death than in life, but there's also another

18:45

phenomena that takes place when a tragedy like

18:47

this happens. The public thinks that

18:49

such murders are given to the full attention

18:52

and force of law enforcement, and that the government

18:54

has such a vested interest in bringing justice

18:56

to the Perps that they could never get it

18:58

wrong. Right? Like when's the last time you thought,

19:00

gosh, were the right people

19:01

arrested for the murder of this very famous person?

19:04

I'm guessing never because we all just expect

19:06

law enforcement to get it right when the victim

19:09

is so important.

19:10

So you'll be shocked to know then that in

19:12

the case of the assassination of Malcolm x,

19:14

not only did the government get it wrong,

19:17

they never seemed to want to get it right.

19:19

How do we know they got it wrong? Well,

19:21

because fifty six years

19:23

after the murder of Malcolm X, two

19:26

of the three men convicted of the crime

19:28

who had already served a combined four

19:30

decades in prison were quietly

19:32

exonerated in November of twenty twenty

19:35

one. This begs the question, of

19:37

course, if these men were innocent, then

19:39

who killed Malcolm X and

19:41

why? And how did they get away with it? So,

19:43

I mean, it almost seems related to a crash course about

19:46

who Malcolm X Maz, I mean, who doesn't know

19:48

who he Maz, but the story of his life is actually

19:50

really vital to understanding why he was murdered.

19:52

A lot of us are familiar with his truth to power

19:54

and black empowerment legacy, but not

19:56

a lot of us know much more about him. Thank you, American

19:58

Education System. We're gonna try to fix this. So

20:01

the story of Malcolm x starts with his birth on

20:03

May nineteenth nineteen twenty five in Omaha,

20:05

Nebraska. He was born Malcolm

20:07

Little, the fourth child of Earl

20:09

and Louise Little. And his father

20:11

Earl and says fascinating was a Baptist minister

20:14

who not only preached the gospel but also

20:16

the philosophy of Marcus Garvey.

20:18

And for folks who don't know, Garveyism essentially

20:21

taught that America would never accept blacks

20:23

as equal member society. So black Americans

20:26

should establish their own separate nation.

20:28

And Earl was an ardent advocate of

20:30

blackseparatism and took Malcolm along

20:32

with him as a child to hear his sermons. In

20:34

case it's not clear, a foundation is being

20:36

laid for who Malcolm would later become and

20:39

what he would

20:39

believe. Interestingly, while Earl

20:41

believed in Garveyism, after the family

20:44

was threatened by the KKK in Nebraska,

20:46

He bought a house and moved the family

20:48

to a white neighborhood in Lansing, Michigan.

20:51

Earl was taken to court to vacate the

20:53

white's only property, and the court

20:55

ruled to evict the family.

20:57

Before they could move though, their house was

20:59

burned to the ground. A couple years later,

21:02

Earl was run over by a street car

21:04

and died. Believe it or not, the official cause

21:06

of death was ruled a suicide, but the family

21:08

always maintained that the terror group associated

21:11

with the KKK called the Black Legion

21:13

Maz responsible for both the arson that

21:15

burned down the house and the murder

21:18

of the Earl

21:19

Little. It almost reads like a superhero

21:21

origin story. Right? But here's

21:24

the thing. That superhero didn't emerge till

21:26

much later. Half of the family went through extreme

21:28

poverty and lost everything after

21:30

Malcolm's mother was committed to a psych asylum

21:32

-- Mhmm. -- after Malcolm Little sort getting into

21:35

petty trouble and eventually ended doing a four

21:37

year prison stint at the age of twenty

21:39

for a burglary. I can't believe I could say

21:41

that word. I said it right, burglary. No. Okay. It

21:43

was in those four years that he discovered Islam,

21:45

which was a new black Muslim movement, led by

21:47

man named Elijah Mohammed. Malcolm

21:49

devoured everything he could to learn

21:51

about it. He also set out to read every

21:53

single book in the prison library, copied

21:56

every page of the dictionary, and wrote

21:58

twenty five drafts of a one page

22:00

letter to the man that he now considered

22:02

a prophet Elijah Mohammed. By

22:04

the time Malcolm was released, he had changed

22:06

his name to Malcolm X and was immediately

22:08

welcomed into Elijah Mohammed's

22:10

circle. Malcolm x quickly rose in the

22:12

ranks thanks to his incredible

22:14

oratory skills and soon was better

22:17

known and got more media attention than

22:19

Elijah Mohammed. A big difference

22:21

between the two men. One that caused

22:23

tension between them was that Mohammed was

22:26

careful not to be political while

22:28

Malcolm was almost exclusively political.

22:31

His tension came to a head when president

22:33

John F. Kennedy was assassinated and

22:35

Elijah Mohammed explicitly ordered

22:37

Malcolm not to comment about

22:39

it. Instead, Malcolm X

22:41

stated Using your chickens out in

22:43

the morning from your barnyard, those chickens will

22:45

return that evening to your barnyard, not

22:47

your neighbor's

22:48

barnyard. I think this is a prime example of the

22:50

devil's chickens coming back home to roost. He

22:52

was immediately suspended from the nation of

22:54

Islam and forbidden from public

22:56

speaking. I'm sorry. Does that mean I'm I'm sorry

22:58

to interrupt. When he says chickens come home to

23:00

roost, is he saying that Kennedy

23:04

basically deserved it in a way? Is that what he's saying?

23:06

Pretty much He was saying the violence that

23:08

America inflicted on other countries

23:10

around the world just came back to bite them in the

23:12

butt. That's what he was saying. I see. Because I was

23:14

wondering if he considered Kennedy to be someone

23:16

who was an ally to the black community?

23:19

No. Not or that didn't matter. He didn't.

23:21

He did not. This was a phase in Malcolm's life

23:23

where he was very much

23:25

the white man is the devil face. Okay?

23:27

So and Kennedy was no different.

23:29

Once he gets put to heel by Elijah Mohammed,

23:32

he tries really hard to mend this rift because

23:34

he considered Elijah Mohammed a father figure.

23:36

But it didn't help him, but the people close to

23:38

Elijah Mohammed hated Malcom. They

23:40

were jealous of him They resent his popularity.

23:43

They didn't let any of his letters get to Elijah

23:46

Mohammed. It wasn't like he could text him back then. And

23:48

around that time is when Malcolm began to publicly

23:50

spiral. And he also had learned

23:52

that this man that he consider a prophet

23:54

had apparently fathered eight children

23:57

outside of marriage with six of his teenage secretaries.

23:59

This is the time he completely split from

24:02

the nation Islam. He started attacking the

24:04

organization and Elijah Mohammed publicly

24:06

and started getting threatened almost immediately.

24:09

And even those threats he talked about publicly

24:11

and said, these are coming from the nation. A

24:13

year after the split, the threats came to fruition,

24:16

First, his house was fire bombed while his entire

24:19

family was sleeping in it and a week later on

24:21

Sunday, February twenty first nineteen sixty

24:23

five, Malcolm X was gunned down.

24:25

Just as he was beginning his talk at the Ottoman

24:27

Ballroom in

24:28

Harlem. The ballroom was packed that day

24:30

and the witnesses told police that there were

24:32

multiple gunmen. One of them was caught

24:34

before he was trying to escape with a

24:36

forty five still in his coat pocket and the footage

24:38

of him being surrounded and taken down by

24:41

cops outside the ballroom still exists.

24:43

Within a week, two other men were arrested

24:45

based apparently on eyewitness accounts.

24:48

Those two men also part of the nation

24:50

of Islam were Muhammad Aziz,

24:52

and Thomas fifteen x Johnson.

24:54

And from the moment of their arrest, they

24:56

maintained their innocence. The man

24:58

caught with the gun, Thomas Hair,

25:01

took the stand at his own trial, accepted

25:03

his guilt, and testified that his

25:05

co defendants were innocent, yet

25:08

these two men were imprisoned for over

25:10

twenty years, each before

25:12

being released and were finally exonerated

25:15

by the state of New York in twenty

25:17

twenty one. So the question remains,

25:19

who killed Malcolm X? Let's

25:22

talk about it. Mhmm. So before

25:24

we dive

25:24

in, Maz, why did

25:26

you choose this case to talk about today?

25:28

Well, I've always been interested

25:30

in Malcolm X and Robbie and I were going back

25:32

and forth and she indicated that we could look at a

25:35

historical figure and

25:37

she asked if I'd be interested. I said, yes, I've

25:39

read the book I you know, the things that

25:41

stick with me are, like Rabia was saying

25:43

when he was in prison for burglary.

25:46

In his book, he talks about that and

25:48

he talks about it was interesting to me. He talks

25:50

about being in a neighborhood with because

25:52

he had red hair, so they call them red, I believe.

25:54

Right? So he talks about how one time

25:56

when they were robbing or getting ready to rob

25:58

a house, they were in this neighborhood, and

26:00

they're the only black guys in this white neighborhood.

26:03

And as they're driving, they

26:06

see a cop car go the other way.

26:08

And then the cop car makes a u-turn, and

26:10

they were so smart that they pulled over

26:13

and they got out of the car and they go

26:15

excuse us. Excuse us. We're lost. Can

26:17

you help us figure out how to get out of

26:19

here? And the and the cop was like, oh, yeah. Yeah. You

26:21

know, basically taught him how to get out of there while they

26:23

were, like, you know, they were robbing. So they were

26:25

smart. And then the other thing remember was he always

26:28

said that once he felt that they

26:30

were out to get him. He would never sit in a

26:32

restaurant with his back to the door. He always

26:34

had his back to the wall so he could see things.

26:36

So he was a very empowering

26:39

figure I've seen many clips.

26:41

I watch a lot of Muhammad Ali documentaries,

26:44

and he's always in there with him. And I know Muhammad

26:46

Ali also was nation of Islam and left the nation

26:48

of Islam. So it's all very interesting

26:50

to see and to wonder because, you know,

26:53

I'm sure there's so many theories of like, well,

26:55

the FBI did it and they hired a

26:57

guy to make him seem like his nation of it.

26:59

There's so many theories where I always

27:01

again talk about interesting stories

27:03

and to get to the

27:04

truth, it feels to me like this is

27:06

a good one.

27:07

Yeah. I guess that's what we hope to do

27:09

here today. Yeah. And like so many historical stories,

27:11

it often takes decades. I mean, sometimes even centuries

27:13

to get to the truth of it, but I was telling Ellyn earlier

27:15

that, you know, growing up as they muslim or muslimish

27:17

in this country. Then we had a kind of limited

27:19

role, you know, like representation. Right?

27:22

It was like, there was mom and only, Khaimalajuan,

27:25

Malcom I mean, like, was one of them. So Malcolm

27:27

x was always a really important part

27:29

of having some pride as a muscle in this country.

27:32

However, I am shocked as somebody

27:34

who's an attorney and works on

27:36

innocence cases that didn't know anything about the

27:38

details of the case. I just assumed he was assassinated.

27:41

They got they got the right guys and those I

27:43

thought those guys would still be in

27:44

prison. I didn't know. Each one yeah. Each

27:46

one of

27:46

them would be out, like, in twenty years. So,

27:48

Maz had you heard about the exonerations in

27:51

twenty twenty one? I think there's been

27:53

so much news coming and going that I

27:55

vaguely remember that when you mentioned it.

27:57

I remember seeing something like that because

27:59

I think there was another one besides clearly

28:02

the odd none, but there was another one

28:04

that recently happened where I think I was talking

28:06

to my son about it in the car or some, you know, they

28:08

they don't know about a lot of this stuff. And the

28:10

question came up like, what now?

28:12

And I said, I think now they

28:15

sue the state -- Mhmm. -- and get paid

28:17

for all the years that they lost

28:19

I think, you know. So

28:21

one of them has sadly passed. And

28:25

when you chose this case, I was almost embarrassed

28:27

at how little I knew

28:30

and how that news sort

28:32

of came and went so quietly? I

28:34

mean, I just don't understand. I I don't

28:36

know what we were going through at that

28:38

particular week when that happened, but how

28:41

did that not dominate our Twitter

28:43

feeds? How were we not all

28:45

talking about it? I really didn't know until

28:47

I sat down to

28:50

really dive into the research of this

28:51

case. Well, it's also like you guys

28:53

were saying, once the case once the person

28:55

is either killed or the people are captured.

28:58

You think, okay, that's it. Like, even like, I'm thinking now

29:00

of the Central Park five as Oprah

29:02

will calm the exonerated five. I remember

29:04

that happening. I had had just gone

29:06

in New York for something. I remember that being the

29:08

news, and then they got caught.

29:11

And then in my mind, I didn't go any deeper

29:13

to be like, were they

29:14

What happened now? They're not guilty and anybody. And

29:16

then you would you go, okay. They got the guys. And

29:18

then years later, you go, oh, no. They got the wrong guys,

29:21

and Trump took out an ad saying they should execute

29:23

them. And it was just crazy when you start digging in

29:25

because I think as a society like

29:28

you guys let off, we think especially

29:30

if it's high profile case that

29:32

there's some very smart

29:35

-- Right. -- sleuths at work.

29:38

We're piecing it together, and there's no way they're gonna

29:40

make a

29:40

mistake. And it's very much like law

29:42

order or CSI. They got it. I

29:44

mean, especially with the assassination

29:47

of Malcolm X. I mean, one

29:49

would think that people would fight to

29:52

get that right. No matter what you think

29:54

of him, you can't deny how prolific

29:56

he was and he was prominent

29:59

figure during the civil rights movement, you think

30:01

there would be little more action to make

30:03

sure we got the guy and we tell

30:05

the story

30:05

right. Here's my theory as to why I think

30:08

they kept it very quiet. It was done very quietly.

30:10

And I think we'll prove it by the end of this

30:12

episode. The reason I think they kept it

30:14

quietly is that if they made it really, really

30:17

public, the people be like, then who killed

30:19

them and why haven't you arrested it? So this

30:21

absolves them in a way of actually reopening

30:23

the investigation and trying to arrest the

30:25

actual killers. And I really think that

30:27

the historical documents kind of prove that

30:29

theory, but let's get into it. Let's start by talking

30:32

about who would want him dead? Who were his enemies?

30:34

We talked a little bit about, like, his relationship with, you

30:36

know, Elijah Mohammed and how things were getting hairy.

30:38

His rise, like, his rise was so

30:40

astronomical in the organization. Because he was

30:43

so articulate and, like, composed

30:45

and, like, you had incredible oratory skills.

30:47

You you rarely do get figures like that.

30:49

Right? Like, in our age, we're like, maybe Obama was kinda

30:52

like that, but I don't even think Obama was like Malcolm.

30:54

So he was so popular that there was this

30:56

fear he might take over the nation of the

30:57

song. Yeah. He was a profound speaker.

31:00

He was dynamic and he was revolutionary.

31:03

He was saying things that were way ahead of

31:05

his

31:05

time. He was saying

31:05

things that were way ahead of his time. Yeah.

31:07

People just didn't say back then.

31:09

We are arrest. We are

31:12

exploiting. We are down

31:14

traffic. We are denied not only

31:16

civil rights, but even human rights.

31:18

So the only way we're going to get

31:20

some of this oppression an

31:23

exploitation away from us

31:25

or aside from us, it's come together

31:27

against the common enemy. Who

31:32

taught you to hate the texture of your hair?

31:35

Who taught you to hate the color of your

31:37

skin to such extent that you

31:39

bleach? Forget like

31:42

the white man.

31:43

Who taught you to eat the sheep of your nose

31:46

and the sheep of your lips? Who

31:48

taught you to eat yourself? From

31:51

the top of your head to the soul of

31:53

your feet. Who taught you to

31:55

hate your own kind? Who taught

31:57

you to hate the race that you belong

31:59

to? So much so that you don't

32:01

wanna be around each other. No.

32:03

Before you come asking mister Mohammed,

32:05

does he teach me, you should ask yourself

32:08

who taught

32:08

you? To hate being what

32:10

God gave you. Not

32:15

only was he intelligent and well spoken,

32:17

but of course, he was way more

32:19

controversial

32:20

than who he was compared to back then,

32:22

which Maz, of course, doctor Martin

32:24

Luther

32:25

King. Like a black male

32:27

Marjorie Taylor Green. Right?

32:29

Exactly. What we were had in mind.

32:31

Oh, we love her. This child says, you know, about

32:33

revelation part of it. The reason I think he resonate

32:35

with a commute with black community is actually because

32:38

what he was saying was exactly what they've been thinking

32:40

and experiencing and feeling forever,

32:42

but he but like you said, he was able to say it

32:44

on a national stage and get coverage for it. It was

32:46

the first time white people were hearing

32:48

it. I think that's what was revolutionary about

32:50

it. Yeah. I think that it probably goes

32:52

back further, but I think you can trace the

32:54

roots of white fragility to Malcolm

32:56

X. Because he said a lot of things

32:58

that people say now that are

33:00

not shocking,

33:01

but, of course, back then, people were clutching

33:03

their pearls. Yeah. It it might go

33:05

back further. But, yeah, that was definitely he

33:07

triggered not a lot. He triggered a lot.

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life. Within

36:00

the nation of Osama, like among its own people,

36:03

like he all there's all these fears around him because

36:05

Nation Islam turned out to have a lot

36:07

of corruption inside of it. And a lot of the leadership

36:09

on top who actually were like Elijah Mohammed's

36:11

own kids We're like, well, Malcolm is way too

36:13

honest. If he finds out everything's going on, he Maz

36:15

shut this stuff down. We had huge businesses

36:17

who were making millions tax free they've

36:20

gotten very wealthy. And then, of course, he was

36:22

outshining everybody. He's outshining the other ministers.

36:24

You've heard Elijah would

36:25

speak. I mean, have you actually I'm

36:28

I'm saying that like you might have, but must have you?

36:30

I think I I think I have. I've seen clips,

36:32

and and you're right. He wasn't he didn't

36:34

impress me. And and he's

36:36

he's more like black male Liz

36:38

Truss who by the time this

36:40

comes

36:41

out, people won't remember who she is. Yeah. Elijah

36:43

Mohammed had a a pimp sweat

36:45

of events. He didn't speak with any

36:48

gravitas. He didn't speak with any authority,

36:50

which is exactly what Malcom-

36:53

Uh-huh. -- and it's interesting you say that the national

36:55

Islam was corrupt in the way they work

36:57

because a lot of times you say power corrupts, and it's

36:59

interesting because I think a lot of these organizations,

37:01

and I don't know the history of nation of Islam, but

37:03

I'm just talking generally here. A lot of organizations

37:06

start out with some lofty

37:08

goals Right? We're gonna we're

37:10

gonna make everybody wealthier, we're

37:12

gonna make everybody happier, we're gonna give freedom to

37:14

everybody, and then quickly, quickly, quickly to get

37:16

more autocratic and they become more

37:18

and more corrupt. And you're right. When you're a truth

37:21

teller in that type of an

37:23

organization -- Yeah. -- analyst. It's

37:25

it's this

37:26

yeah. It's a you're living in this

37:28

ambivalent. To be fair, the nation

37:30

was transformative for a lot of

37:32

black communities. They didn't credibly good

37:34

work. I mean, like, they they had created purpose

37:37

for people to create businesses and jobs and

37:39

incomes and and yeah. Elijah Mohammed

37:41

was kind of a much more quiet saw spoken

37:43

Maz. His angle was all spiritual. Right?

37:45

All he wanna talk about is religion, but Malcom was

37:47

like, I don't I don't know if I ever heard Malcolm

37:50

talk about religion

37:50

ever. It was always political. Yeah.

37:52

Elijah Mohammed did a lot for the black

37:55

community. However, it

37:57

has to be said that all

37:59

of that lined his pockets. He

38:02

had a vested interest in this

38:04

that was financial. When he

38:06

died, he had something like twenty

38:08

million dollars. So all of that

38:10

work also benefited him financially

38:13

in a in a very big

38:14

way. Yeah. Well, here's the thing.

38:16

Now moving on from nation, we know that

38:18

by the time Malcolm was killed or a year before now

38:20

Malcolm was killed, their split was public, and

38:22

they just everybody hit each other very publicly.

38:25

But those you know, the the people who think it's a conspiracy

38:28

of the FBI were, like, out to get Malcolm. I mean,

38:30

it it's not. It is so well documented

38:32

that the FBI was out to get Malcom. They had

38:34

they had file on him since nineteen fifty. He was

38:36

still in prison then. It was like he had become a

38:38

member of the

38:39

nation, and that's when they opened a file on

38:41

him. And

38:41

was this Jay Edgar Hoover? Yeah.

38:43

Yeah. Okay.

38:44

Yeah. They monitored his comings and goings.

38:46

There was a man and Elijah

38:48

Mohammed for that matter. There was a man

38:50

whose only job was to

38:53

listen to Malcolm X. His

38:55

conversations listened to his wiretap from

38:57

eight o'clock in the morning to ten o'clock at night.

38:59

That Maz his

39:00

job. Quick question. I just thought of this not

39:02

has nothing to do with the Malcolm X thing. Does anybody

39:04

know what the j stands for in j edgar Hoover?

39:07

Jackass. I mean, it stands for Jackass.

39:09

Yeah. I'm just curious. I would say, Diego Hooper, and

39:11

I feel, like, I'm Maz. But I'm so excited about

39:13

you guys too

39:14

far. Like,

39:14

you know, like, we gotta wait to distinguish him. I

39:16

don't know. Maybe Kaye had to go over, but but

39:18

you guys keep talking. I'm gonna find out what the Jay

39:20

stood for.

39:21

Yeah.

39:21

Just so

39:22

Yeah. You guys keep talking. I'm just gonna do a little

39:24

side research. Just so people can take listen.

39:26

You need to be able to take tidbits out of this

39:28

so that if people say the Malcolm Xer

39:30

is phrase you gotta listen to

39:31

it. By the way, did you know Jacob Hoover? You know what I'm

39:33

saying? I'm giving him this right now. Go ahead. Go ahead. Oh, I was gonna

39:36

say Elijah moment, what, under day and Edgar

39:38

Hoover's administration was the most

39:40

surveyed and wiretap person in

39:43

the nation, meaning he was public enemy number

39:45

one as far as Hoover was concerned. And they

39:47

had infiltrated the organization made over

39:49

twelve hundred informants that

39:51

infiltrated the nation was

39:52

on. Twelve hundred? Yeah. Over twelve hundred.

39:55

Ellyn, because there were no black

39:57

members of the FBI, so they

39:59

would find vulnerable people

40:01

who could use a couple bucks to

40:03

infiltrate and get them in formation or

40:06

else they couldn't really monitor them

40:08

from the inside. So the

40:10

informants were massively helpful

40:13

in monitoring both Elijah Mohammed and

40:15

Malcolm

40:16

X. By

40:16

the way, Jay stands for John. We

40:18

couldn't know if that was -- There we go.

40:19

-- too boring. That's why. I feel like we're

40:21

just so Yeah. It's much more It's much

40:24

more

40:24

Jamal. Can you imagine it was Jamal Edgar

40:26

Hoover? He'd be like, wait. He was Muslim.

40:29

Go on. That would have been amazing. I'm

40:31

gonna call him Jammalib or or from now on. I

40:33

mean, the thing is, look, you know, the informants, I'm

40:35

sure a lot of them were like low level people. They just

40:38

need people to attend meetings, take notes, report

40:40

back. At the same day, they were listening to everything. They had

40:42

everything wiretapped, but there were at least

40:44

three of the top level, top

40:46

peer nation of Islam leadership were

40:49

FBI informants. They also -- Yeah.

40:51

-- they also sent agents in, so NYPD

40:54

had a whole group called Bosie BOSI

40:56

BOSI AI. It was like the Bureau of Social Services.

40:58

They sent agent. And the and there are although

41:00

they might not have been any black FBI agents the time

41:03

they were black, NYPD cops and

41:05

they worked inside infiltrating

41:07

the organization. I mean, he

41:10

By the way, sorry to interrupt, but this reminds

41:12

me a little bit of when

41:14

the FBI was sending people to infiltrate

41:16

Muslims after September

41:18

eleven.

41:18

Oh, we've been there. And we've been we lived there.

41:20

Yeah. Yeah. And it goes back to what you guys said

41:22

earlier where you go, oh, we think that there's competent

41:25

people dealing with all these things.

41:26

Meanwhile, a lot of these informants end up being

41:28

very incompetent and very sloppy,

41:30

etcetera. Oh, not like that. I mean, I I've had

41:33

client I actually was working and representing

41:35

people who were being agreeing on to become informants

41:38

in our communities back after nine Ellyn. And there

41:40

were some that had mental illness. I mean and

41:42

they're, like, they're being approached by the Fed. The Fed

41:44

are, like, becoming an informant. And, like, I remember this

41:46

one young guy. He was so excited And I said,

41:48

listen. They're gonna use you and throw you away, and he

41:51

was bipolar. I mean, imagine the information

41:53

he could have brought back. He could have ruined lives.

41:55

I mean, it's it was a really scary time.

41:57

Before we move on to the major part

41:59

that the NYPD played in this

42:01

and and they did play a major part, I

42:03

just wanted say, you know that old saying,

42:05

don't put anything in writing then you don't want

42:08

read in court. Well, Jared

42:10

Gohoover put pretty much everything

42:13

in writing. I mean, to the point where

42:15

he wrote in black and white, it says we

42:18

need to do something about Malcolm

42:19

x. I mean, they put so much in

42:21

writing that their own of the FAA archives

42:23

actually have been the best source to

42:25

help document Malcolm's life for

42:27

his biographies and for the Malcolm x project.

42:30

I mean, like, that's where you go to figure out what he was doing

42:32

day by day, hour by hour. And they also

42:34

were like messing with Malcolm and Elijah

42:36

Mohammed. So, like, they would leak things into the

42:38

press stories that Malcolm wanted to take over

42:40

the nation. And then they would leak stories in the press

42:42

that Elijah Mohammed was unhappy with Malcolm and was

42:44

gonna get rid of

42:45

him. And so they they're just causing all this havoc

42:47

between them. Yeah. And we'll get more into

42:50

the NYPD's role that day

42:52

at the audibond, but suffice

42:54

it to say the NYPD also had its monitoring

42:57

of the nation of Islam and

42:59

the goings on of Malcolm x as

43:01

well. Yeah. After the JFK thing,

43:03

when they went basically just he they

43:05

ended up just completely splitting. Right?

43:07

Like, Malcolm X went his own way just a year

43:09

before he he was killed. They turned

43:11

against it so

43:12

publicly. So I I know we need to talk

43:14

about JFK and that statement,

43:16

but for a timeline, this is also

43:18

sort of when Malcolm x started to get

43:20

a little cock. He, you know, he knew

43:23

he had a following. He knew he

43:25

was onto something. He had power

43:27

to reach people. And

43:29

he he knew that. So there was a shooting

43:32

in a mosque April twenty seven, nineteen

43:34

sixty two. We know this

43:36

storyline all too well. The mosque

43:38

secretary was a man by the name of Ronald

43:41

Stokes, and he was unarmed and

43:43

he was shot and killed. And

43:45

six other nation of Islam members were

43:47

injured that day. And this is

43:49

sort of where Malcolm found

43:51

himself at the center of the police

43:53

group holiday

43:54

conversation. And

43:55

he was very close to Stokes. Yeah. Stokes was

43:58

okay. Very yeah. Yeah. He was very

44:00

close to him, lost his friend,

44:02

his brother, and this was at a

44:04

time. Remember when Elijah Mohammed was

44:06

like, hey, we're not commenting on

44:08

this kind of thing. We're not getting

44:10

in the center of politics and

44:13

police brutality is a huge

44:16

conversation, and

44:18

the LAPD was insisting this

44:20

was self defense. I mean, how many

44:23

times have we heard this scenario play out

44:25

in real time. And this is the time Malcolm

44:27

x feels a shift. This was

44:29

even before his statement about JFK, but

44:32

Elijah Mohammed was like, we're

44:34

not trying to make waves. And

44:37

Malcolm X was like point me to high

44:39

tide. He that's what he

44:42

did. And Robbie and I

44:44

were talking off Mike about this

44:46

is sort of the rise of

44:48

Malcolm X's Eagle. He

44:51

wasn't he didn't like taking

44:53

orders from Elijah Mohammed

44:55

anymore, and he certainly didn't

44:58

like being silent. Yeah. Yeah. I mean,

45:00

he had a reason to have an ego.

45:02

He had a reason to have swag. I mean, was

45:04

power. Right? He had impact. I mean,

45:06

but also he was right. They

45:09

were unarmed black men

45:11

and the LAPD lied. I mean,

45:13

and and not much has changed. You can open

45:15

the news today and read pretty much

45:17

same exact

45:18

story. Right? Well, the nation came after Malcolm.

45:20

They, you know, Malcolm had been on payroll

45:22

as a minister all these years. You know, he he saw

45:24

he had no income anymore. They went

45:26

to evicted him and his family, these little girls

45:28

from their house. He only had a hundred and

45:30

fifty dollars to his name. He had no protection

45:33

anymore, and he was getting threats on

45:35

the regular death threats for him and his family.

45:37

He then starts this, like, international

45:39

pan African organization. I think just trying to start

45:42

his own thing. That

45:44

included this international tour and we

45:46

all familiar with this for no Malcolm story.

45:48

He makes that famous pilgrimage to Mecca

45:51

and has a transformative experience

45:53

changes spiritual and philosophically and

45:55

comes back a different kind of muslim basically.

45:58

Right? And but

46:00

we're gonna hear that, like, he's dead. So

46:02

let's talk about the day of the

46:03

murder. So as of now, we feel like we

46:05

have a few possible It could be

46:07

the nation. It could be the FBI. It

46:09

could be the NYPD. Those

46:11

seem to be the main main

46:13

groups that would want him

46:15

killed. Right?

46:15

Yeah. And Malcolm

46:17

knew it. Yeah.

46:18

He knew he was marked. And

46:20

In

46:21

terms

46:21

of Elijah Mohammed, he was a false

46:23

prophet and

46:24

we're gonna get in trouble for that. We might

46:27

have some nature, but Well, he had he had he had

46:29

he was He had you're saying that there was corruption

46:31

found taking the money that he was making

46:34

off of the nation of his Is that

46:35

weird? Ten all the

46:36

baby? All the babies? All the babies of the teenage girls

46:38

is a problem too. Right.

46:39

Okay. Yeah. And he was a

46:41

pedophile. Yeah. I mean, he died

46:43

in nineteen

46:44

seventy seven, and maybe some of his listeners are

46:46

subscribers. And if you are, if you could please

46:48

take this time to rate us live on

46:50

iTunes, that would be great. Yeah.

46:53

Malcolm called it. Malcolm said publicly,

46:55

the nation wants me dead, and and law

46:58

enforcement will not protect us. They had tried many

47:00

times to get protected for the family they would not

47:02

give it to them. On the day that Malcolm was killed,

47:04

he had an event scheduled back day in Harlem at

47:06

the Ottawa and ballroom, normally whenever

47:08

these kinds of events happened, about two dozen

47:10

NYPD officers would be outside because,

47:12

you know, these are first of all, they wanna survey

47:14

what's happening, but and and watch everybody coming

47:16

and going. But, you know, they were all there

47:18

was always a police presence on that day.

47:21

There was there were zero uniformed officers

47:23

outside of the ballroom. There were two

47:26

officers inside, but they weren't even in

47:28

the ballroom. They were up stares on different floor

47:30

for some reason, and Malcolm

47:33

had a terrible feeling. So the night before he

47:35

stayed in the hotel so that people didn't know where he Maz,

47:37

and a week before his fire house of firebomb.

47:39

But the morning of he was awoken

47:41

with a phone call in his own room, in his hotel

47:44

room directly. And although

47:46

we don't know exactly what was said, it seemed

47:48

that this person was like, I know where you are type

47:50

of thing, and Malcolm was very nervous. When

47:53

he got to the venue, he kept telling

47:55

people around him. I feel like I shouldn't be here.

47:57

This is the freakiest thing to me. All the other guests

47:59

who were invited to speak that day bailed

48:01

on

48:01

him. Like -- Wow. -- yeah.

48:04

People knew Yeah. Everyone

48:06

kind of said that he wasn't

48:08

himself that day. He felt him.

48:11

He felt something shift.

48:13

You know, when you just have that

48:15

-- Yeah. -- that gut feeling. Because

48:17

also, if you look at it from the other side,

48:20

they made it very clear that they

48:22

were scared of what Malcolm was capable

48:24

of. He wasn't a violent person,

48:27

but they said that they were scared

48:29

of in violence that he might incite.

48:31

So even if you looked at it

48:33

from the other way, there was nobody there protecting

48:36

Malcom, but why wasn't there

48:38

anyone making sure that

48:40

he didn't hurt anyone. We know that

48:43

not to be true. We know him not to be

48:45

violent, but if he was this person

48:47

they painted him out to

48:48

be, Why wasn't there anyone

48:50

there watching over him? I mean, the

48:53

the FBI also knew that he is gonna get killed,

48:55

like that all the signals are coming out of the leadership

48:57

the nation to get him killed. There was an FBI

48:59

wiretap log from Elijah Mohammed's home

49:01

that says, that is quoting Elijah Mohammed.

49:04

This is what he said. He said, with these hyperparts, meaning

49:06

Malcolm, when you find them, cut their heads

49:08

off. And he also said the only way to stop him

49:10

is to get rid of him as Moses did the bad ones.

49:12

I mean Moses put the half worshipers to death

49:14

for people who don't know the biblical story. And then there's

49:16

another time where Elijah moment's son

49:18

told a gathering of nation security

49:20

that Malcolm's tongue should be cut out and mailed to his father.

49:23

So, like, And the FBI has all of

49:25

this, like, transcribed and recorded, and

49:27

so they know it's

49:27

coming, but they will not give him protection. Do

49:30

we know if the nation of Islam had

49:33

killed other enemies before

49:35

or if this is something that they you

49:38

know, this is their first foray into this.

49:40

I mean, I'm just I'm curious about that.

49:42

I don't know if there's any other assassination

49:44

that's linked to, like, any kind of director. And there weren't

49:46

any direct orders here either. It's not like Elijah Mom

49:48

was like, I'm directing. He they were just putting out

49:50

signals. That this guy needs to be taken care of.

49:53

And when the prophet

49:53

speaks, somebody's gonna act.

49:55

So do you know much about that day,

49:57

about what happened, Maz? I don't know the

49:59

details. I do as you guys

50:02

are describing it, it reminds me of the

50:04

scene and the godfather when

50:06

Vito Corleone has been shot. He's in the

50:08

hospital. And then Michael Corleone

50:11

pieces together the fact that the cops

50:13

are in on it. So they're supposed

50:15

to be protecting his dad, but when

50:17

he goes to the hospital, he sees their knot.

50:20

And so anybody who is a fan of the movie,

50:22

I just watched it again, he gets

50:25

someone who's loyal to his dad who came to deliver

50:27

some flowers. He gets that guy to

50:29

come with him to stand in front

50:31

of the hospital for when the assassins

50:33

from the other family come by, they're

50:35

gonna stand in front of the hospital with their hands and

50:37

their pockets pretending like they are

50:40

security So the car

50:42

comes, it stops, sees them, keeps going,

50:44

and then the guy who was

50:46

helping Michael comes to light a

50:48

cigarette and his hands are shaking because he thought

50:50

he was gonna be shot. So reminds me a lot

50:52

of Malcolm not being able to get

50:55

any protection

50:57

which leaves him out. Like like, you

50:59

know, he's sitting dumb. Here's here's something

51:02

atrocious though. He had some

51:04

security, meaning his just people who were his

51:06

followers. Were volunteering as

51:08

security at the event, but the head

51:10

of his security, a man named Gene Roberts, who

51:12

supposed to be Malcom like very close, you know, front

51:15

actually was an undercover agent of the NYPD.

51:17

And yeah. He was there that day. And

51:20

so let's talk about, like, what happened in

51:22

the moments in which Malcolm was killed. The ballroom

51:24

was packed four hundred people. Right?

51:27

And it's around three o'clock, and Malcolm gets up

51:29

to the podium. And he literally just says salam

51:31

and starts to speak. And then suddenly in

51:33

the back of the room, somebody else get

51:35

take your hand out of my pocket or get your hand out

51:37

of my pocket. And then fire these little

51:39

smoke bumps, excuse me, not firebomb, but smoke bombs

51:41

are thrown in the audience, and it's just

51:43

commotion. So then kind of according

51:45

to plan, his private security goes

51:48

to see what's happening, goes to see what's

51:50

going on. And that leaves Malcolm

51:52

completely exposed. And that's

51:54

when they say a man in an overcoat

51:56

approach the stage, and he

51:58

pulled out a shot off shotgun and

52:01

began firing. But that's not all

52:03

because what we now know is

52:06

Malcolm was shot twenty one

52:07

times, but he wasn't

52:10

just shot with one gun.

52:12

What?

52:13

Yeah. Two other yeah. Two other men also

52:15

rushed the stage and began shooting. And it's

52:17

kinda crazy to me that nobody else actually was killed

52:19

with all these, like, guns three different people

52:22

shooting guns. Malcolm was riddled, but

52:24

it was actually the shotgun pallets that killed them according

52:26

to the autopsy. The other bullets that entered

52:28

his like, the from the other guns were not fatal.

52:30

It was the shotgun. Now one of the

52:32

shooters was shot in the leg by

52:34

one of the security guys as he tried

52:36

to run out, and that was Tom Matehr. The

52:39

one we talked about, and he had the gun in

52:41

his pocket. So we know that I mean, and he accepted

52:43

his guilt. Now, the NYPD,

52:45

again, it is so weird. Like, they don't

52:48

have they they're called and said, listen, Malcolm

52:50

x has just been shot. He died right then

52:52

there on the stage. Okay? They arrive

52:55

very casually. There's footage of it. You can watch the

52:57

footage. They're just like milling around slowly

52:59

is the most casual investigation I've

53:01

seen four hours after

53:04

Malcolm x's murdered on that stage.

53:06

There is there was actually a dance scheduled

53:08

in that ballroom, and the police

53:10

allowed the ballroom to be cleaned up the

53:12

blood wiped up and the dance took

53:14

place at seven PM.

53:16

What? Come on. Just like nothing

53:18

happened. And In pictures,

53:21

we can see in the background the podium

53:23

that Malcolm was standing

53:25

at, and it's riddled with bullets,

53:27

and it's just sitting there at this dance.

53:29

They the police never collected it.

53:31

The police never collected that podium. In nineteen eighty

53:33

five, a journalist discovered that bullet

53:36

riddled podium still in the basement of that

53:38

ballroom.

53:38

Yeah. It sat in that basement for

53:41

years. That is so

53:43

crazy and it's

53:45

crazy on so many levels

53:47

first of all, it makes me think of how you

53:49

need to have representation

53:52

everywhere. Again, just to go back

53:54

to the Iran protests when they

53:56

were happening, when they first started happening,

53:58

I should say, there's Iranian American

54:01

city council members who

54:03

were introducing initiatives

54:06

in their cities to say that

54:08

they stand with the women of Iran, they stand with the

54:10

people of Iran. And it made me go, that's

54:12

why you need to have representation. And

54:14

that's why when we look at modern day

54:17

policing in major cities, it's

54:19

good to have people of color because

54:22

Ellyn if it's cops versus Malcom

54:25

in that situation, I think if there were

54:27

other people of color

54:29

in positions of power in

54:32

those police departments, they would recognize

54:35

that we gotta give this some attention as

54:37

opposed

54:37

to, I'm sure, and I here's

54:39

the thing. If the NYPD the the only

54:42

reason to me, it makes sense. The NYPD didn't even

54:44

send any security that day. They did not

54:46

have their two dozen officers, uniform officers.

54:48

There's no presence of officers in the ballroom,

54:50

was because they had heads

54:51

up. They did not

54:52

get there.

54:53

They had to know. You know? Yeah.

54:55

Absolutely. Now, there was a man by

54:57

the name of Raymond Wood. Who

54:59

was a officer for the

55:01

NYPD. And he

55:03

spoke on his deathbed. He actually wrote

55:06

letter of confession and he didn't want it read

55:08

aloud until after he passed, but

55:10

he basically was there.

55:13

And his letter revealed that he was

55:15

inside the audubon when

55:18

Malcolm was assassinated, and this is a

55:20

part of his letter. He wrote, I

55:22

participated in the actions that in

55:24

hindsight were to plorable and

55:26

detrimental to the advancement of my

55:28

own black people. My actions

55:30

on behalf of the New York City police department

55:33

were done under duress and fear.

55:35

So basically, what we're setting up is that

55:37

there were three groups of people that all

55:39

wanted him dead. How about it to happen?

55:42

Yes. One that carried out the crime.

55:44

And the other two that absolutely allowed

55:46

it, that ushered them and said, hey, do you

55:48

wanna commit this crime? Great. We're gonna turn

55:51

a blind eye. I think there might be

55:53

more than one group that actually made it happen. And so

55:55

let's talk about the culprits and the cover up. So

55:57

after Tom and Taylor, he's like, grab NAB right

55:59

outside the OTTABAN, within a few days, like

56:01

four or five days, there's two more men who are

56:03

arrested, Mohammed disease, and

56:05

Thomas fifteen x Johnson, members

56:08

of the nation, but they're from the Harlem mosque,

56:10

the local mosque. Talmadge is from

56:12

the Newark mosque, and that's kind of important because we're gonna

56:14

talk about craziness Both men from the

56:16

day, they were arrested said, we're innocent, and

56:18

they both had alibis. Okay? And just to be

56:20

clear, there was nothing linking them to the

56:22

crime. These were just eyewitnesses. They

56:24

were like, yeah, that looks like the guy and they were

56:26

like, okay, that's good enough for me. Let's take

56:28

him in. There's absolutely no evidence linking

56:30

them Yeah. -- crime. And this is And this is

56:32

that time where cops would

56:34

still like, if they cared, they probably

56:37

would

56:37

have, you know, beat it out of salvage.

56:39

Is it salvage?

56:40

Salvage out here. Right? They would have

56:42

beat the because Talmed you would think

56:44

would know who the other two people are.

56:46

When he says the the other two you guys got is

56:48

not the guy aren't the guys. You would think

56:51

he would know the other two guys, and

56:53

you would have think back then if they wanted

56:55

to, they would have done some police

56:57

coorsion. They didn't even want it when Tom Maz to

56:59

tell them. The interesting thing is that, initially,

57:02

in the earlier NYPD reports, they're actually

57:04

looking for they're, like, they're they believe there are

57:06

five people involved. And suddenly,

57:08

after they make it to a rest, they're like, no, never mind.

57:10

It was three, and it was these three. The

57:12

one person they decided was the shotgun shooter

57:15

who was the the person actually killed him. They said that

57:17

they convicted or charged and convicted

57:20

Thomas fifteen x Johnson of that. Now

57:22

if you look at pictures of him, he's a very light skinned

57:24

black Maz. But here's the thing,

57:26

that there were so many people in that

57:28

ballroom who gave detailed

57:30

descriptions of the shotgun shooter, including

57:33

nine FBI informants who were in the room

57:35

that day. Okay? And there's

57:37

that head of security who's actually NYPD. And

57:40

here's what an FBI memo from that

57:42

time says, The shotgun shooter

57:44

is described as a dark, dark complexion,

57:46

Negril male twenty 8622

57:48

hundred pounds heavy build wearing

57:50

a gray coat. Look at a picture

57:53

of the guy of Thomas fifteen x. He looks

57:55

nothing like that description. But

57:57

here's the thing. It doesn't stop there. The FBI

57:59

files like, oh, we know who this guy is. We

58:01

think is a guy named William Bradley who

58:03

was a high ranking member of the Newark,

58:05

New Jersey Maz, which is the same mask that

58:08

hair came They had his picture

58:10

in the file. They had his identity, his address, and

58:12

his rap sheet, which was violent

58:14

and considerable, and included other crimes

58:17

that he used saw it off shotguns

58:19

for. But there's also an

58:21

indication that he was an FBI

58:23

informant. So did

58:25

the FBI know or not know? Were they part

58:27

of giving a signal to do it? I don't know.

58:29

What they did do was literally before

58:31

the trial took place of any of these three

58:33

people charged, they closed the file.

58:35

And they didn't even tell the NYPD that

58:38

we know the sky, his name is William Bradley,

58:40

he is the shooter, they didn't disclose

58:42

his name, and in his entire life, William

58:44

Bradley was never questioned in connection

58:46

with the

58:47

crime. So is there a way in retrospect

58:49

to go back and prove

58:51

that he was the guy. I mean, is he still

58:53

alive? Is he dead? Are there others

58:55

who could say that was the guy? And and, obviously,

58:57

the Ellyn,

58:58

killers that the two other suspects were

59:00

exonerated?

59:01

Hair said it. Hair said it repeatedly. Since

59:03

the nineteen seventies, hair has been giving

59:05

affidavits up to affidavits

59:07

saying, I'm naming the other four people

59:09

who heard me. Yet, he said that in his trial.

59:11

He said that during his testimony. He

59:13

said those two guys are

59:14

innocent. They had nothing to do with it. And

59:17

in nineteen seventy seven and seventy eight, he

59:19

names William Bradley as a shotgun shooter,

59:21

and he names every single other person. He

59:23

said there were three of us with guns, two who

59:25

were doing the smoke bombing involved,

59:27

like, and nothing happened. lawyer tried to

59:29

get the case reopened, judge denied

59:32

it, but here's the crazy thing. Beyond

59:34

hair. Okay. I know exactly what you're gonna

59:36

say. Everybody at the Newark mosque

59:39

knew it was William Bradley. They

59:41

all knew it. Yeah. It has been a open

59:43

secret in that community for fifty

59:45

six now fifty eight years.

59:48

No one turned him in. He became a pillar

59:50

of the community. He appeared in Cory Booker

59:52

political ads. He had

59:54

this boxing gym where he mentored

59:57

youth And the reason we know all this

59:59

is if you watch the doc, you wanna watch a good documentary,

1:00:01

go watch who murdered Malcolm X on Netflix.

1:00:03

The documentary of the Ramon Mohammed

1:00:05

does an in credible Jobrani he tries

1:00:07

to talk to all these leaders who are alive at

1:00:09

the time and say, you knew it. You

1:00:11

all knew it. You still knew it. Why

1:00:14

why wouldn't you turn him in? And they're like,

1:00:16

he was a good Muslim, and he learned his

1:00:18

lesson, and we don't talk about him. And

1:00:20

Wow. They yeah. But the thing about

1:00:23

it is, like, that the people from that mosque, from

1:00:25

that nation mosque also hated

1:00:26

Malcolm. And I think for them, they were, like, problem

1:00:29

solved. We're gonna turn our head and protect

1:00:31

our own crazy. How crazy? It's

1:00:33

it's amazing how the injustice

1:00:36

that comes with it, whether you liked them

1:00:39

or not, but people didn't want to know

1:00:41

the answer. And in their mind, you're right. Sometimes

1:00:43

people justify taking

1:00:46

these types of actions by saying,

1:00:48

well, we got rid of the problem.

1:00:50

It's kinda like, again, I keep looking

1:00:52

for analogies kinda like Trump voters

1:00:55

who'll say, I don't like the

1:00:56

guy, but you know what? He got rid of

1:00:58

the immigrants or whatever

1:00:59

the thing is that they wanted him to do. And they go,

1:01:01

so I'll stick with him. So similarly, these

1:01:04

people at Damascus, like, you

1:01:05

know, we're no fans of the FBI, but they

1:01:07

got rid of our enemies. And so

1:01:09

we're just

1:01:09

gonna let him William Bradley, I mean, like, his

1:01:11

his rap sheet just went on and on. But

1:01:13

when he finally kind of became the community,

1:01:16

like, he kind of, you know, grew out of it

1:01:18

and came out of prison and and he died. Is

1:01:20

that the thing? He died before he could be arrested

1:01:22

or charged. He died before I mean, maybe

1:01:24

after these honorations, they might have been interested, but

1:01:26

he that man died around the same time. He got a

1:01:28

hero send off the lieutenant governor

1:01:30

of New Jersey was at his funeral. And

1:01:32

so there is this weird to me.

1:01:35

I feel like that is all of this is proof

1:01:37

to me that he definitely was an FBI informant

1:01:39

because he was so protective. The FBI is like, we

1:01:41

know it is. Not gonna tell the NYPD. We're not

1:01:43

gonna charge him. They just they protected

1:01:45

him. William

1:01:46

Bradley is the the shotgun. Right? The

1:01:48

shotgun guy. Did

1:01:48

you say that he that he got out of prison?

1:01:50

Because I heard you just say you got out of prison. Was he

1:01:52

ever in prison? It was in prison, not for this. He had,

1:01:54

like, assault charges. He had

1:01:56

robbery charges. Yeah. He

1:01:59

had, like, apparently raped somebody. Like, this

1:02:01

and this is before Malcom. Like, before Malcolm

1:02:03

was killed, he already had a considerable rap

1:02:05

sheet. Yeah. When you think of these groups

1:02:07

of people and they were powerful in very

1:02:09

different ways. And Elijah Mohammed really manipulating

1:02:12

the nation of Islam because now

1:02:14

he's painting Malcolm x to sort of be this

1:02:17

Judas of sorts. And then when you think

1:02:19

of this standoff, this trifecta of

1:02:21

the FBI, the NYPD, and the nation

1:02:24

of Islam, and then Malcolm x kind

1:02:26

of standing in the center of it, It's

1:02:28

almost like he stood no

1:02:29

chance. He was really just out

1:02:31

there on his own. No. He

1:02:33

was thirty nine. He stood no chance.

1:02:35

Wow. So young. It's almost like I was

1:02:37

thinking, like, how could he have gotten out of that? It it

1:02:39

almost would have been like he had to go to another

1:02:41

country, which back then might have

1:02:43

been able to get him

1:02:45

far away enough where he'd be protected

1:02:47

for a while. But it feels like the,

1:02:50

you know, the fact that his house was fire bombed

1:02:52

a week before and he was up giving

1:02:55

a speech a week later shows you that

1:02:57

he felt like he was on a mission that he had

1:02:59

to keep going as

1:03:00

well. Yeah. Eagle or no ego. I think Malcolm

1:03:02

was incredibly sincere to his cause. He was an

1:03:04

honest human being. He had a lot of integrity. He stuck

1:03:06

with you know what I mean? And when and

1:03:08

when to me, it was even integrity

1:03:10

that when he went for a hutch when he went

1:03:12

to mecca, and then he realized, maybe I'm wrong

1:03:14

about all these things, all these racial things too.

1:03:17

He came back and said, I was

1:03:18

wrong. I mean, that's integrity. It's like correcting

1:03:20

yourself publicly. Do you feel that

1:03:22

that your message your apparent

1:03:24

message of love that you brought back from

1:03:26

his mom as is the real reason they're after

1:03:28

you because you're not hating as hard as

1:03:30

they want to. Well, I never did hate anybody

1:03:33

hard. But I but

1:03:35

I do know that when I wrote that letter

1:03:37

saying that they were white people in Mecca, they shook

1:03:39

up a lot of Muslims because most of

1:03:41

the Muslims who follow Mr. Mohammed absolutely

1:03:44

believed that it was impossible. Physically

1:03:46

impossible. I should say divinely impossible for

1:03:48

a white person to go to Mexico.

1:03:51

And my chip there shattered

1:03:54

that image. Oh, that's just handsets.

1:03:56

Yeah. In the world watched his evolution. In

1:03:58

terms of the way that we view and

1:04:01

talk about social justice right now,

1:04:03

there are so many things he talked about

1:04:05

back then that were not part of our

1:04:07

vernacular. mean, he basically he

1:04:09

explained redlining before we

1:04:11

understood what that term

1:04:13

was. When you live in a poor neighborhood,

1:04:16

you're living in an area where you have to have

1:04:18

poor schools. When you have poor

1:04:20

schools, you have poor teachers. When

1:04:22

you have poor teachers, you get a poor education.

1:04:25

And when you get a poor education, you're

1:04:28

that's tend to be a a poor man in a

1:04:30

poor woman the rest of your

1:04:31

life. For education, you can only

1:04:33

work on a poor paying job. And

1:04:36

that poor paying job enables you

1:04:38

to live again in a poor neighborhood. So

1:04:40

it's a very vicious cycle.

1:04:42

He was brilliant. If you

1:04:45

have the time to listen to some of his speeches,

1:04:48

he was just vary ahead

1:04:50

of his

1:04:50

time. Malcolm didn't get justice

1:04:52

and certainly the two

1:04:54

innocent men who were who spent

1:04:57

twenty odd years each in prison did

1:04:59

not get justice. I'm hoping William Bradley now

1:05:01

is getting justice, now that he's

1:05:03

dead and gone and has met his maker, but

1:05:05

know, one of the sad things is like Thomas fifty

1:05:07

x Johnson who later became Khalil

1:05:09

Islam. He died before

1:05:11

even the exoneration happened. He died in two thousand

1:05:13

nine, still procuring reclaiming his innocence. He had

1:05:15

been released. And Thomas Hair actually

1:05:17

was also released in, I think, like, eighty

1:05:19

five or something or eighty I don't know.

1:05:21

But he is apparently still alive.

1:05:24

And all the other people he named are

1:05:26

kinda dead. So nobody

1:05:28

there might be one of the four one of the other four

1:05:30

perps that are still alive, but, like, nobody can find

1:05:32

him. He kind of disappeared.

1:05:33

Wait wait a minute. So Tomage is it Tomage

1:05:35

hair? Yeah.

1:05:36

The guy who was caught with the -- So -- gun in his

1:05:38

pocket. He's a guy caught with the gun and

1:05:40

he said, I did it. I shot him. So he

1:05:42

only got, what, twenty years you're

1:05:44

saying? They each served me about twenty years and gone out, which

1:05:46

I also thought was I thought people they would all

1:05:48

die in prison for killing Malcolm

1:05:49

x, but no. You would think so because

1:05:52

that's like I mean, that's it's

1:05:54

not just first of all, I don't don't know you guys

1:05:56

are the lawyers. I don't know what people get from murder

1:05:58

when they're actually

1:05:59

say, I did it.

1:06:00

No. I've got life plus thirty five. Yeah.

1:06:02

Thank you, Maz, for acknowledging

1:06:04

my legal expertise.

1:06:08

Thought you went to law school. You didn't go to law school?

1:06:10

I was gonna say she went to law school

1:06:11

where I get my lips done, which is nowhere.

1:06:14

No.

1:06:15

So so wait a minute. So most

1:06:17

places, if if somebody commits a murder and

1:06:20

says, I did it. In most states,

1:06:22

are they getting twenty years, you

1:06:24

know, life? What's what's the what's Do you

1:06:26

know what what is the the

1:06:29

the high and low? I mean, twenty twenty five

1:06:31

years is usually like the kinda like the

1:06:34

like the bottom. Like, you know, that's the low end of

1:06:36

it. But in most circumstances like this, especially when

1:06:38

it's premeditated, that is life,

1:06:40

if not, the death

1:06:41

penalty. So So that

1:06:43

shows you that it wasn't just the FBI and

1:06:45

the cops, but also the whole justice system

1:06:48

didn't want whoever whoever

1:06:50

sentenced this guy

1:06:52

to, you know I think

1:06:53

they were here's the thing though. I think they were actually sentenced to

1:06:55

life and they got paroled later. So they

1:06:57

they yeah. Maybe they had, like, good records. I don't

1:06:59

think they only sent to they were actually sentenced to life.

1:07:02

They were able to get out early, which also was shot.

1:07:04

But here's the other thing. Who knew who

1:07:06

did I I never in my life heard that the killers of Malcolm

1:07:08

x, the people who are convicted of killing

1:07:10

him, were out and about since the eighties.

1:07:12

I never knew that. Yeah. I wish we could do

1:07:14

a show of hands of who knew those

1:07:16

people were exonerated in twenty

1:07:18

twenty one where was the meeting

1:07:20

where they everyone decided to

1:07:23

sweep that under the rug. They're like, yeah, those

1:07:25

those guys are exonerated. Just just don't say anything.

1:07:28

Who who heard of

1:07:29

that? If

1:07:29

Rabia and Jodry didn't hear about it, I don't know

1:07:31

that it actually happened.

1:07:32

Yeah. I'm also curious how you assess

1:07:35

innate a leader like that, premeditated,

1:07:38

go to jail. And then at what

1:07:40

point did they go, okay.

1:07:42

He promised he's not gonna kill anybody else

1:07:44

with the last name X. So let's let them out.

1:07:47

I mean, it's like, it's a big it's

1:07:49

it's it's a political killing.

1:07:51

It it was like a movement. That you went out

1:07:54

and killed somebody. So, yeah, I'm all

1:07:56

four growing and being

1:07:58

forgiving and and, you know, of, you know,

1:08:00

you hear about, like, the guy's a teenager,

1:08:02

he's in a gang, he's in a robbery, and he shoots

1:08:04

the guy, and he kills the guy, and then he gets

1:08:07

twenty years. And then twenty years

1:08:08

later, he's matured,

1:08:09

and he's a different person contribute

1:08:12

to society. But this was a

1:08:14

premeditated murder of

1:08:16

a political leader which

1:08:19

to me feels like should get you

1:08:20

life, I would think, and keep you there. I

1:08:23

don't think Malcolm X has

1:08:25

as much historical respect as someone

1:08:27

like Martin Luther King, I mean,

1:08:29

he he made a lot of people

1:08:31

mad. I mean, when he made that comment,

1:08:34

on JFK. After JFK was assassinated,

1:08:37

he said that the chickens were coming

1:08:39

home to roost. And it was looked

1:08:41

at sort of mocking

1:08:43

the assassination of

1:08:45

Kennedy. And I've seen

1:08:47

oh, look, I'm not saying I'm not saying JFK.

1:08:49

Deserved it. I think what Malcolm was looking at was

1:08:51

he was looking I think what his comment was that

1:08:54

if you understand how the world looks at America and

1:08:56

looks at the violence that comes out of this country,

1:08:58

like, you're gonna understand, like, now what it feels

1:09:00

like. I think that's what it Maz, not that JFK personally

1:09:02

observed

1:09:03

it, but maybe I'm being generous Maybe

1:09:05

I yeah.

1:09:05

I mean, he recanted a lot of what he said.

1:09:08

He wrote a letter to Elijah Mohammed, and he

1:09:10

apologized. But I mean --

1:09:12

Yeah. -- words matter, you

1:09:14

know, that was That was a pretty

1:09:16

prickly thing that he said about the

1:09:18

assassination of the president.

1:09:20

Especially, I you know, Ellen, you make a good point.

1:09:22

Especially when it's a sensitive time.

1:09:24

It's one thing, like, twenty years later,

1:09:26

to say, well, that and by the way,

1:09:28

Robbie, the way you say it said it is a lot

1:09:31

more eloquent to say, you know, America

1:09:33

has done a lot of stuff and the rest of the world sees

1:09:35

us as such. And therefore, when they

1:09:37

kill one of our leaders, I'm not

1:09:39

saying it it's, you know, it was it was a

1:09:41

horrible devastating thing. But,

1:09:44

you know, again, this is Malcolm x talking.

1:09:46

But American this is what the

1:09:48

world wants to do to American leaders, you know, that

1:09:50

kind of thing. But to say, Maz it the crows

1:09:52

came? Is it crows came? Chicken came, rooster.

1:09:54

The

1:09:54

chickens, not the crows. Yeah. The crust.

1:09:56

The crust. The chicken is getting

1:09:58

farming, like, an out similar or analogy

1:10:01

or something or phrase, I don't know.

1:10:02

Yeah. Yeah. Right. And he was giving

1:10:05

that speech. And the problem

1:10:07

is that Elijah Mohammed gave him specific

1:10:10

instructions not to talk about

1:10:12

it.

1:10:12

He did not wanna get political. Yeah. And

1:10:14

then Elijah Mohammed had to do

1:10:16

damage control. He was like, whoa, whoa, whoa,

1:10:18

JFK was a wonderful man. What

1:10:21

happened was a tragedy. And

1:10:23

-- Yeah. -- it was that it

1:10:25

seemed like at the time, Malcolm X just kind

1:10:27

of went a little

1:10:28

rogue. Ellyn, perfect. Right? Nobody's

1:10:30

perfect. And and you're right. And he kind of

1:10:32

created more enemies by saying something

1:10:35

like that because you're not you're not winning

1:10:37

any hearts and minds by

1:10:39

taking someone who's beloved by many

1:10:42

and and and also in a tragic

1:10:45

situation. It's not like whatever.

1:10:47

He he slipped and fell and ended

1:10:49

up, you know, in the hospital for a week and was

1:10:51

out. It was he got killed. I've been a community

1:10:53

actress for a long time. I've seen this with a lot of other activists.

1:10:56

There's a phase in the, you know, twenties,

1:10:58

thirty like, it the real fiery.

1:11:00

And then they, like, hit forty and stuff and their

1:11:02

kids get a little old like, little there's like a mellowing

1:11:04

that happens. And I think we never got to

1:11:06

see that side of Malcom. And I think it's so it was

1:11:08

not just a deprivation for the black communities, deprivation

1:11:11

for all of us because we don't know

1:11:13

what he could have become after that

1:11:15

spiritual transformation of his or the

1:11:17

philosophical transformation. Whether or not

1:11:19

he had those differences with Elijah Mohammed.

1:11:22

Whether or not the FBI wasn't fueling the fire,

1:11:24

I just think he was so outshining all

1:11:26

of them that at some point Elijah

1:11:29

Muhammad is gonna

1:11:29

be, like, enough. This guy cannot stand. Like, we can't

1:11:31

be it can't can't be two lions leading this pride.

1:11:34

Yeah. Yeah. There never are two lions leading

1:11:36

a pride, and jealousy is a cancer.

1:11:38

I mean, Elijah Mohammed

1:11:41

was very strategic in the sense that

1:11:44

he knew he was inferior, and

1:11:46

he wasn't able to come to terms with that because

1:11:49

Elijah Mohammed was powerful. He

1:11:51

was rich. But Malcolm had something

1:11:53

that Elijah would never have,

1:11:55

that charisma, that power

1:11:58

of his spoken word, and then seeing

1:12:00

Malcolm be everything that he was

1:12:02

not able to be and he was accomplishing

1:12:04

different things. Right? It that he wasn't able

1:12:07

to because, oh,

1:12:09

fragile ego comes from insecurity. And

1:12:12

Malcolm x got all that external

1:12:15

validation in the crowds

1:12:17

of people that used to listen to him

1:12:19

and Elijah knew he would never have

1:12:21

that, and that makes for a bruised

1:12:24

ego. It's

1:12:25

jealousy. It's also greed. A lot of times

1:12:26

you look at people like this and you go, why would

1:12:28

they kill the guy because what

1:12:31

you just said, he had the wealth and

1:12:33

it's almost he's thinking Ellyn,

1:12:35

Malcolm could expose me

1:12:38

in a way that could take away

1:12:40

this wealth. So -- Sure. -- hey, it's

1:12:42

either your life or mine.

1:12:45

And in this case, it was his

1:12:47

life. So have we

1:12:49

done it? How do we solve the case, Ellen? I

1:12:51

mean, I think his assassination was

1:12:53

a perfect storm. Of telegrams

1:12:56

and winks and nods and people

1:12:58

turning blind eye because even

1:13:01

though one man or one bullet

1:13:03

killed him or one man pulled the trigger. I

1:13:05

do believe that the FBI, the

1:13:08

NYPD, and the nation of Islam, all

1:13:11

Assassinated Malcolm

1:13:12

X.

1:13:12

agree. I'm

1:13:13

gonna agree with that. John Edgar Hoover

1:13:16

was Jamal. Somehow behind it. Jamal. Yeah.

1:13:19

He compared Malcolm X to Hitler

1:13:21

-- Yeah. -- in writing. Yeah.

1:13:23

It's all they're all declassified documents.

1:13:26

It's wild. Malcolm x loved

1:13:29

black people profoundly and

1:13:31

deeply. Mhmm. And I think that

1:13:34

just scared a lot of people.

1:13:36

I think they were just scared of what he was capable

1:13:39

of and what he was capable of

1:13:40

achieving. It's still scaring people. That's

1:13:42

why we have Mega. That's why we got Mega.

1:13:44

Alright. We're gonna wrap it up

1:13:46

here. Thank you so much, Miles. I think we've kept you for

1:13:48

about three days now.

1:13:51

We figured we've learned some things. Go ahead.

1:13:54

Yeah. I am so glad you chose this case. I know

1:13:56

I said it at the start of the episode. I was really

1:13:58

nervous to take this on because I'm

1:14:00

almost ashamed at how little

1:14:02

I learned about Malcolm X, and

1:14:05

this research was really fascinating

1:14:07

to

1:14:07

me. So thank you for choosing this case.

1:14:10

Malcom full circle, you guys ask me what am

1:14:12

I watching? And now I know I'm gonna watch

1:14:14

this documentary that killed Malcolm

1:14:16

X. Boss,

1:14:17

can you tell our listeners where they

1:14:19

can find you, what you're up to, anything you

1:14:21

wanna plug right now? Yeah. Absolutely. People

1:14:23

can follow me at Maz Jobrani.

1:14:25

That's MAZJ0BRANI,

1:14:31

and that's on Instagram, Twitter,

1:14:33

TikTok, Facebook, all of it. And

1:14:35

I'm always touring. So if you guys wanna

1:14:37

come see me do stand up live, just go to Maz

1:14:40

dot com and look at the dates there. Come

1:14:42

on out. And other than that,

1:14:44

there's the Netflix special. There's

1:14:47

I think I'm the only Maz comedian out

1:14:49

there. So just Google Mars comedian,

1:14:51

and it'll come up.

1:14:52

Yeah. You can't miss Jobrani. That's No.

1:14:54

You wanna hear someone Rabia. last time Mazda's in

1:14:56

DC. He's like, I'm gonna be the Kennedy Center. I was I'm speaking

1:14:58

to the Kennedy Center the same

1:14:59

night. Same time.

1:15:00

Yeah. It's brown knight. Brown

1:15:02

knight. I

1:15:03

did a that is so cool. I love that.

1:15:05

I missed it. Boss, you are hilarious.

1:15:07

I just I've said it before, but I

1:15:09

just love your style of

1:15:10

comedy. It's so important to

1:15:13

learn and then laugh what we learned.

1:15:15

You

1:15:15

teach us. You teach us with your comedy.

1:15:17

Thank you for that. Yes. He does.

1:15:19

And we have to learn to laugh

1:15:21

so we don't cry. I just

1:15:24

I love it. I love it when you make fun of

1:15:26

your wife and your parents.

1:15:28

You are just such a crack up. Thank you

1:15:30

so much for taking the time. And

1:15:32

coming to talk with us. Please come

1:15:34

back and chat with us

1:15:35

again. Thank you, guys. I appreciate

1:15:37

it. That was very informative and

1:15:40

it was fun and

1:15:42

on on and onwards and upwards Ellyn

1:15:44

more. We I I I'll I'll come back when

1:15:47

we we find another

1:15:48

historical do it. Let's do it again.

1:15:50

I'd love to have you back. And also, I I'll

1:15:52

see you on wait. Wait. Don't tell me.

1:15:55

Yes.

1:15:55

I'm gonna make it happen.

1:15:56

Alright, Vas. Thanks so much. Alright. Alright.

1:15:59

Bye bye. Bye.

1:16:02

That is just the tip of the iceberg with

1:16:04

Malcolm x and Masa's Is

1:16:06

that he the easiest guy to talk

1:16:08

to? Oh, listen. I love mom's. I love him for

1:16:10

so many different reasons. I encourage everybody

1:16:12

to follow him online because he's not just

1:16:14

funny, and smart, and kind,

1:16:16

and sincere. He's a brilliant political commentator.

1:16:18

He talks a lot about what's happening

1:16:20

overseas, like a lot of stuff happening in Iran. Like, really,

1:16:22

it's worth following this guy in line. It really

1:16:24

is. And please with

1:16:26

that, please follow Rabia and I

1:16:29

on all social

1:16:30

media.

1:16:30

Yeah. You should follow us too.

1:16:31

You can follow us at Rabia and

1:16:34

Ellen on everything. Don't forget I

1:16:36

spell my name with a y

1:16:37

just to make things difficult. What do my Maz

1:16:39

do that? Don't know. Difficult.

1:16:43

You can also find us in the Facebook group.

1:16:45

We are having so much fun

1:16:47

connecting with so many brilliant minds every

1:16:49

time a case comes up, there is always

1:16:52

somebody that knows things that

1:16:54

works in a prison or works in

1:16:56

a funeral home or is it forensic

1:16:58

pathologist, our listeners who tell you,

1:17:00

just spam the globe and they just

1:17:02

know everything. I will never stop being

1:17:04

impressed with our listeners because I cannot

1:17:06

every

1:17:06

post. I'm like, oh my god, you're a what? And you listen

1:17:09

to us. Thank you so much. It

1:17:11

is amazing. Yeah. So please come

1:17:13

to our Facebook group. We continue the

1:17:15

conversation there all week long about

1:17:17

these cases and anything that comes up.

1:17:20

If you have a question or a

1:17:22

statement or anything that resonated

1:17:24

with you in our case, please send us a

1:17:26

voice message on our Speak Pipe at

1:17:28

WWW dot speakpipe dot

1:17:30

com slash solve the

1:17:32

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1:17:41

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1:18:00

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1:18:02

That is what you The review can be about anything.

1:18:04

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1:18:06

You could just give out anything. Just and five

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1:18:11

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1:18:16

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1:18:18

it. And don't forget we will be giving you our

1:18:20

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1:18:23

on our Patreon. Everything we didn't get to

1:18:25

and all the facts and things we forgot to tell

1:18:27

you in this little hour we have

1:18:29

it. Girl, I'm gonna be coming live from Pakistan.

1:18:32

Like, from packs.

1:18:33

I will do it. I will find a way. I will

1:18:35

find that Internet connection. Alright. Thanks,

1:18:37

guys. We love you.