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head on over to patreon.com

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be tons of bonus things that you can take

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advantage of right now. Yep, we are all

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here for the same party. Join us. And

1:35

what else is happening in May? It's coming

1:38

up, Rabia. I got my sequins ready. They

1:40

are ready. I know I keep talking about them, but I'm very

1:42

excited, Ellen. Just bear with me. We hope

1:45

you are going to be able to join us for our live

1:47

show on May 4th in Atlanta

1:50

at 8 p.m. at The Punchline. We're going

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to have our friend Payne Lindsey back and-

1:54

So excited. We're so excited.

1:57

We're going to be having lots of fun. We're

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going to be-

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solving cases, giving you all hugs.

2:02

There is a Q and A for VIP

2:04

guests. And we have another special guest coming

2:06

too, right? We have another podcaster friend who's gonna

2:09

pop in for the show and I'm gonna pull her up on stage

2:11

because her opinion matters. It really,

2:13

really does. So head on over to any

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of our socials and click the link to come and

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see us live. We cannot wait to

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see your faces. It's our first

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public live show guys, come on out. It's gonna

2:24

be a blast. Okay, on with the

2:26

show.

2:28

Hey Ellen.

2:34

Hey Rabia, how

2:36

are you? I'm good, how you doing? I am good.

2:38

We're here with our new friend

2:41

Andy whose entire personality seems

2:43

to revolve around Italy. What didn't you say? Yeah,

2:45

I mean, he's got some deep connection, maybe it's a reincarnation

2:48

thing or something, but you know what? So much fun.

2:51

I loved talking to him and

2:53

I don't even know if it made it to

2:55

the episode, but there was a little special guest that popped

2:57

into the booth as he was recording. I

3:00

know Conan O'Brien. It's

3:02

real tall redhead. Yes, we

3:04

screamed. He's a new fan.

3:06

Now, if you are here and you have

3:08

not listened to part one, please pause

3:11

this episode, go back and listen to

3:13

our part one of our coverage of the murder

3:15

of Meredith Kirchher and the wrongful

3:17

conviction of Amanda Knox and then

3:20

come on back for part two.

3:24

We also play a little game here called

3:26

Three Quick Things and we each ask

3:29

you a random silly question and

3:31

then we ask all our guests the same

3:33

question. You want to go first, Rabia? Yeah,

3:35

sometimes not so silly, but just very random.

3:38

Random is a better word, yeah. Yeah, so my

3:40

question for you, Andy, is what is the best

3:43

vacation you have ever taken in your life and why?

3:45

It would either be like, and I mean, just because

3:47

when I lived in New York and I had a good job that

3:50

was well-paying, we went to Italy a few

3:52

times and probably like the first time I went

3:55

to Italy, you know what, I'm going to change it

3:57

because actually, and it's still Italy.

4:00

but my ex-wife and I once, we

4:03

went to Venice in February. I

4:06

don't even remember what the motivation was,

4:08

but nobody goes to Venice in February

4:11

because it's kind of like, Conan

4:13

O'Brien's right outside the door

4:15

here. O-M-G.

4:19

No way. Wait, no, I just saw his shoulder.

4:22

There he is. Oh my gosh, no way. Hi, Conan

4:24

O'Brien. Hi, Conan O'Brien. That

4:26

guy. He just follows you everywhere. I told you, Andy, I'm telling

4:28

you, this guy's got a problem. If you guys hadn't been here, he

4:31

would have probably hit me. That was probably why he was coming into this

4:33

little booth, was to hit me. We'll protect you,

4:35

Andy.

4:35

Yes. You're a national treasure. You deserve

4:37

protection. But we went to

4:39

Venice in February and it was cold, which

4:45

was okay. Like, you know, I'm from the Midwest, so

4:48

cold is okay, but

4:50

it was like, I'm

4:51

like, I'm not gonna do it. I'm not gonna do it. I'm not

4:53

gonna do it. I'm not gonna do it. I'm not gonna do it.

4:55

So we just hit home, and I was like, hey,

4:57

but it was like, I've never experienced wet cold.

5:00

And it was probably the coldest I've ever been, but

5:03

it was like, you know, kind

5:05

of cozy. And there

5:07

was nobody there. It was like a vacation

5:10

in a haunted city. And it was really, really

5:12

cool. I mean, the beach is

5:14

nice. But I recommend Venice in February.

5:16

I've

5:18

been to Venice in August. Yeah. And

5:20

it was exactly what you'd expect.

5:22

It was humid and crowded and insane. I

5:24

don't understand the pigeon thing. Were

5:27

there pigeons there, Andy? Oh yeah,

5:29

yeah, definitely. People do that thing in

5:31

Venice where they stand there and they let the

5:33

pigeon, that is a horror movie to me. When

5:36

people do that, they stand there. And

5:39

I'm like, you're letting rats crawl all

5:41

over you. They have wings. They're in a better outfit. Because

5:43

you're a New Yorker man. Like, you know, that's, yeah,

5:45

they're all over. You're just sick of them. That's what it

5:47

is. So you're not gonna

5:50

believe this, Rabia.

5:52

My question that I had written down for Andy

5:54

for today was- It was not a vacation. I'm

5:57

not kidding. I will share my screen. My question

5:59

was-

5:59

What is the worst vacation

6:02

you have ever taken? I swear.

6:04

We didn't plan this. We did not plan this. We did not plan it, but

6:06

that was my question. But worst

6:08

in terms of, it doesn't even have to be the place, but

6:11

everything going wrong, your luggage

6:13

getting lost, anything. I can't

6:15

believe we've never done this ever

6:17

before, but that was my question.

6:19

Well, it's funny because

6:22

it sounds like I've only been to Italy. But

6:26

the worst one. It explains the

6:28

case though, because you picked the case. The worst one

6:30

was after the birth

6:33

of our first child, which he

6:35

was born in 2000, the year 2000,

6:37

and we decided we're going to have the

6:40

family where we travel. We're going to teach

6:42

our kids to travel. We

6:44

made the plans to go to Rome.

6:48

My son, when we made the plans,

6:50

was maybe, I

6:52

don't know exactly how old he was, but

6:54

he was still very portable. It was like,

6:57

click him into that little carrier, then

6:59

it clicks into the car seat,

7:01

and then you take him to a restaurant. He

7:03

can't run away from you yet. Exactly. You

7:06

could take him to a restaurant, put him on the

7:08

banquet, and then have dinner and

7:10

he'd go to sleep. By the time the

7:12

trip rolled around, he was mobile

7:15

and he picked up every piece

7:18

of broken glass, every cigarette,

7:21

every dog turd.

7:23

It was constant

7:25

stress. All the needles and condoms,

7:27

yeah. We could not.

7:29

My

7:31

ex-wife and I never enjoyed a meal

7:34

at the same time.

7:35

I'll chase him while you

7:37

wolf down your food, and then you'll

7:39

chase him while I wolf down my food.

7:42

I have very few regrets, and

7:44

that is a solid regret. We

7:46

should not have taken a baby, a

7:48

toddler, to Rome. Then

7:51

five years later, we had my daughter,

7:54

who was such a handful that we didn't go anywhere

7:56

for 10 years. Oh, wow.

7:58

We're gonna

8:00

be like, no, no, no, we're not gonna inflict her on an airline.

8:03

We're gonna, our trips will be driving

8:06

trips.

8:06

I heard that, I heard that the Richters were

8:08

landlocked. I heard that about you. They were like, oh,

8:11

those Richters, they do not travel

8:13

well. A month ago, I traveled for the first

8:15

time all the way back to my homeland, Pakistan with

8:17

my son, because I waited till he was like six to do

8:19

it. And on the way back, I came back alone

8:21

with him. I went there with my husband, my husband was gonna

8:24

come later. He had an earache for 14 hours. An

8:27

earache for 14 hours. And I was

8:29

like, this is why I didn't do this. I'm never

8:31

doing this again. I'm gonna wait till he's 10 as well.

8:33

I'm gonna wait. Oh, yeah. And I mean,

8:35

and you feel so bad. It's

8:38

terrible. When you have a crying baby on a plane,

8:40

first it's like you feel terrible for the baby,

8:43

but then after a while it's like, will you shut up?

8:45

I know you're a babe, but will you please shut

8:47

up?

8:48

You are embarrassing me. Yeah.

8:52

No, and that is true. Also, we need to make

8:54

the distinction that when you travel

8:56

with children, that's called a trip. When

8:58

you travel without children, that is

9:00

a vacation. That needs to be a very

9:03

clear delineation.

9:03

That's true. That's true. So

9:06

we've got our third question, which is the same question actually we

9:08

ask all our guests. And that is this. And

9:11

this is like, so we can figure out why

9:13

you're on our show, why you said yes. Andy, what

9:15

is your

9:17

connection to true crime? How

9:19

does it figure in your life? Why is it important

9:21

to you? Is it? Yeah, I mean, I definitely

9:24

am more drawn to true stories.

9:28

It's hard for me, and listen,

9:30

novel comes highly, highly

9:32

recommended by somebody that I trust. I

9:34

kind of feel like, why do I care

9:36

about something some guy or some woman made

9:39

up? And I mean, I can watch

9:41

the shittiest made-for-TV movie

9:44

if it's based on a true story. Because

9:46

I'm like, well, this actually happened, and that

9:48

has some kind of resonance

9:50

to me. Used to really love true crime,

9:53

read tons of true crime, try

9:56

and keep up. And

9:58

of course, you find out it's nice. 90% Pacific

10:01

Northwest for some reason. I don't know. It's

10:03

where all the good murders take place.

10:05

But after the birth of our first

10:08

kid, it took the wind out of my true

10:10

crime sales. I couldn't, I just,

10:12

you know, it made it too real,

10:15

you know, like the notion of murder. I

10:17

mean, not that it wasn't real before, but it was like,

10:20

I mean, specifically, there was a Farrah

10:23

Fawcett movie, a woman who killed her kids

10:25

because she wanted to be with her boyfriend. And

10:28

she pinned it on a, of

10:30

course, a black man, you know, Oh,

10:33

was it Susan Smith? I think so. In

10:35

the car or something? Yes, yep, yep.

10:37

Oh, it's one of the worst things. Yeah,

10:40

and it was this Farrah Fawcett, and I'd read the

10:42

book.

10:43

And so I saw, and my son was

10:45

maybe a month old, and I saw that this

10:47

movie was on, I was like, oh, I'm going to watch this.

10:50

And I couldn't do it. I just, you know, and I think

10:52

it was just because it was kids.

10:54

It just was impossible, you know, and I know

10:56

there's so many good true crime podcasts,

10:59

and I can enjoy, you know, a documentary

11:02

series on them. But it's not

11:04

with the same kind of, I mean, I sometimes

11:07

am a little uncomfortable with people's

11:10

kind of delight in,

11:12

you know, in it. You know what I mean? To do this,

11:14

you gave me a list of sort

11:17

of different, you know, crimes to choose

11:19

from. You gave me like a wish list of crimes.

11:21

Yeah. And a famous unsalted. Merely

11:24

suggested. Yeah. Merely suggested. But

11:26

it was, you know, there were some of them that

11:29

I looked at and I was like, I just, I don't want that, like

11:31

talking about this is, would not be enjoyable.

11:34

I mean, the one we're talking about is a murder.

11:35

It's got a lot of layers. Oh, there's a lot of craziness

11:38

that goes on in it. Yeah. And also

11:40

to your point, which is something I would like

11:43

to touch on, is people did

11:45

fanatically delight

11:48

in this story. Oh, yeah. The story was so

11:50

sensationalized. It was a circus. Yeah.

11:52

And it was. It was a circus. So

11:54

that oddity of why this

11:57

story took on a whole separate international.

11:59

life when the root of

12:02

this story was a young woman losing

12:04

her life. We'll get more into it, but it really is two

12:06

tragedies, the tragedy of the circus that

12:08

it turned into and the tragedy of Meredith

12:11

Kercher losing her life. So the

12:13

case that Andy chose was

12:16

the murder of Meredith Kercher. And

12:18

obviously we can't talk about that without talking

12:21

about the tragedy of the wrongful

12:23

conviction of Amanda Knox.

12:25

So I actually do really understand that because it is.

12:28

People got really

12:29

personally and emotionally and

12:32

whack a doodily invested in this

12:34

story. The international media was obsessed.

12:37

Yeah. Two beautiful young

12:39

white women at the center of the story.

12:41

Yeah. Yeah. We were obsessed.

12:43

And also one of them was painted

12:46

as like a sex maniac. So

12:49

that. And again. Foxy Noxie. Yeah, Foxy Noxie.

12:51

And then also too, it's funny,

12:54

we're right back at Italy. You know,

12:56

there's something about it's

12:59

almost, it was almost like operatic

13:02

the way that she was prosecuted

13:05

and persecuted. And so,

13:07

and it just seems there's something so Italian

13:09

about

13:10

it. It really is.

13:14

Rabia, we are very different in many ways,

13:17

but you and I picked out the

13:19

very exact same Jenny

13:22

Kane sweaters. Am I telling

13:24

the truth? They have this amazing catalog

13:26

of so many gorgeous pieces and we

13:28

picked out not just the same sweater, but the same color.

13:31

We got the cashmere cocoon cardigan and

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camel. Yes. So you are really

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in for a treat. I am so happy

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that Jenny Kane is a sponsor because

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the thing about Jenny Kane is like, it's very

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and like really minimalist too,

13:48

because they have cotton and they have cashmere.

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13:53

essential. Wouldn't you say? It is going to be one of those

13:55

pieces where you're just going to keep it forever. It's a cashmere

13:57

sweater. It is so good. I love it. because

14:00

I do love those pieces that you keep

14:03

forever. And Jennie Kane really

14:05

has that art of simplicity down.

14:07

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Yeah.

14:59

Ravi, do you wanna go over the crime scene

15:01

and all of the Michigan that

15:03

happened there? I wanna talk a little bit about

15:05

the things that you think any, I

15:07

mean, even novice investigator would be

15:09

able to kind of glean from what's there

15:12

and actually what's not there, which is just as important.

15:14

So, okay, most of the, there's actually,

15:16

you can go to YouTube and look up to the crime

15:18

scene. Like there's video footage taken the same day.

15:21

There's an actual 20 minute video. You can watch

15:23

it on YouTube. You can see that most of the

15:25

flat looks fine. It's not ransacked. There is

15:27

that one room where the rock is thrown in

15:29

the window, but also doesn't look ransacked. Clearly

15:32

there's no robbery because there's valuables everywhere, including

15:34

I think like there's a laptop, but there's like valuable stuff lying

15:36

around. It doesn't look like anything valuable has been stolen.

15:39

Nothing else is disturbed. And then all the

15:41

mayhem is inside Meredith's locked room

15:43

where it's a very bloody scene. Meredith

15:46

herself, you know, it's pretty clear that

15:48

there's been a sexual assault because her

15:50

pants are removed and her t-shirts rolled up. Her

15:52

bra has been cut off. It's laying bloody

15:55

like close by the duvet that's on

15:57

top of her. And she has like bruising.

16:00

on her mouth, her jaw, her

16:02

nose. It's very clear that somebody held her, restrained

16:05

her mouth, probably as they were assaulting

16:07

her. There is a line of bloody shoe

16:09

prints going from Meredith's bedroom to

16:12

out the front door, but also there's this big

16:14

old bloody

16:16

footprint of a barefoot on

16:18

the bathroom mat. And if you look

16:20

at the picture of it, it's the biggest toe

16:22

I've ever seen, like the biggest big toe, it's a big, big toe.

16:24

It's clearly a man's foot, it's a big old.

16:27

But here's the thing, if you think these two

16:29

kids outside might've had something to do with this, where's

16:31

all the blood on them? Where are their

16:33

bloody shoes and their bloody feet? They

16:36

should be covered, and there's a lot of blood

16:38

at the scene, and I have never seen

16:40

any explanation from the authorities about

16:43

what they think happened to their bloody

16:45

clothes.

16:46

Did they not swab

16:48

them down to find if there's traces

16:50

of, I mean, it's hard to get rid of that much blood

16:53

from, and also they didn't take

16:55

the time of death quickly enough, they waited a long

16:57

time to determine her time of death. You've got the

16:59

second bathroom when somebody's taking a large dump

17:02

and not flushed, and

17:04

that's not gonna be Amanda, that's gonna be, I'm sorry, that's gonna

17:06

be a guy, we all know this, right? We can

17:08

agree. It was a manly poop.

17:10

It was a manly poop and a manly not

17:12

flushed. You know the poops are different, they're just

17:14

different poops. Andy knows, he's

17:16

nodding.

17:16

I mean, I'll

17:18

leave you, I'll let you guys discuss it, but

17:21

yeah, okay. I

17:23

think the not flushing part is the part I'm like, there's

17:26

no woman who would do that. I don't know, a single woman

17:28

would do that. Oh, it happens. Me

17:31

and okay, Andy, you might have stories, but here's

17:33

the interesting thing, the way we're looking at this little

17:35

piece of evidence in a gendered way, the prosecutor

17:38

decides that because she had been covered

17:40

by a duvet, he said no man would do that. No

17:42

man would stab her, assault her, kill

17:44

her, strangle her, and then cover her with duvet. That,

17:47

only a woman would do that. Why, I don't

17:49

know, but that's what he believes. And that's

17:51

evidence. I once served on a jury

17:54

for a murder trial. Oh. You

17:56

did? I did, and the

17:59

one thing that.

17:59

struck me was there is

18:02

no extraneous information.

18:05

The defender and the prosecution,

18:08

nobody says, how did you feel about

18:10

what you saw? Or what did you think

18:12

was happening? It was,

18:14

what did you see? What did you hear?

18:16

And then anything beyond that, no, no, no,

18:18

no. And so it was very,

18:21

very specific about what happened.

18:23

Whereas this kind of thing, a

18:26

man wouldn't put a duvet on a woman. How

18:28

is that admissible in court? That's

18:31

not even admissible over the dinner

18:33

table. If your aunt said

18:35

that, you'd go,

18:36

you're nuts. Well, the thing is, this

18:38

is how they're formulating their theory

18:40

of the case based on these kinds of presumptions

18:43

or gut instinct. And that's

18:45

gonna lead them to then decide, these are

18:47

our suspects, we're only gonna investigate them without

18:50

any attention to the actual evidence. And

18:53

you do end up with the wrong cultural conviction in this country too, because

18:55

crap like that happens. It might not show up in the courtroom.

18:59

But before you get to the courtroom, they've decided this defendant

19:01

did it because of these dumb,

19:02

like presumptions. That's what I mean. I

19:05

don't mean to be prejudicial

19:07

or anything, but it does seem so Italian to

19:09

be like, oh, there's, yeah,

19:12

like it just seems like, and an

19:14

Italian

19:15

person- A little misogynistic, a little misogynistic. And

19:17

misogynistic too, but Italy's weird.

19:20

Like

19:23

you can go, it's the place

19:25

where the Pope lives. And

19:27

it's the place that is like, that one

19:30

of the most Catholic places on the planet.

19:32

But at night on TV after,

19:34

I don't know, it's like 11 p.m. There's

19:37

like soft core porn on the regular

19:39

TV. Like there's this

19:41

strange combination of prude

19:46

and conservative, like

19:49

moralistic stuff. And then also like

19:52

sexy ladies, where

19:54

the news anchors are all-

19:59

beautiful women at a

20:02

leucite desk so you can see her legs.

20:05

You know, it's such a- And that's

20:07

part of the massage, right? Yeah. This

20:09

is how we like our women. And I'm sure what they expect

20:12

is like after 11 o'clock, you know, the good girls are

20:14

on bed. Yeah. The bad girls watching this

20:16

stuff. You're absolutely right. And

20:18

I actually, I really do as

20:21

a first generation Italian person, I could,

20:23

you are absolutely right. Because it also is so,

20:26

it's ego-based. Mm-hmm. Even

20:28

when they found out that they

20:30

said they, they found this man's fingerprints,

20:33

his blood, his semen, his saliva,

20:36

his poop,

20:36

and had a history of break-ins,

20:39

they still were physically

20:42

unable to see the story

20:44

unfolding in any way than

20:46

they had presented. Yeah. They

20:48

were incapable of saying, hold

20:51

on, did we make a mistake? To this

20:53

day, that prosecutor to this day

20:55

believes that Amanda Knox was involved.

20:57

So it's that ego of- It's

21:01

what I said it was. Yeah. Then

21:03

they just made that story and

21:05

the media got involved

21:06

and the media jumped on. And it was so

21:09

dramatic and over the top.

21:11

Imagine, imagine them having to roll back,

21:14

arresting Amanda especially, with

21:16

this whole narrative of she's like this

21:18

sex-crazed, murderous,

21:21

and we've arrested her like on TV.

21:23

Like, you know, everything they're doing is televised. Mm-hmm.

21:27

It's not local coverage, it's not national coverage, it

21:29

is international coverage. It would kill

21:31

them and destroy all the men involved in

21:33

this case, because it's pretty much all men. It is, it's very

21:36

Italian. I feel fine saying that. Yeah,

21:38

to admit they got this wrong.

21:39

Do you think that if it had happened

21:43

in Rome or in Milan, as

21:45

opposed to Perugia, that

21:47

it would have been handled differently? Do you

21:49

think that there's something about the parochial

21:51

nature of the town that led

21:54

to this kind of very amateurish,

21:57

emotional, you know, melodramatic?

21:59

kind of, you know, case

22:02

building. Yeah. I mean, it only

22:04

has a population of 150,000 people. Yeah.

22:08

And it's just, we just covered the Britney Stikes

22:10

case, which was a case that happened in a

22:12

small town. And we have to accept

22:14

that. Places like that

22:17

do not have the people or

22:19

the training or the science

22:22

to investigate it in a way that it should have. So

22:25

if it wasn't a bigger city like Rome, and

22:27

having nothing to do with sophistication, but having

22:30

everything to do with equipment or

22:32

the means

22:33

to make it a better investigation.

22:35

Experience, even experience. I mean,

22:37

I have, yeah. I don't know exactly

22:39

whether or not they brought teams from outside with homicide

22:41

experience. It seemed like there were people, there were people filming

22:43

that apartment that same day. I mean, I doubt

22:46

if they had already gotten like teams from outside

22:49

the town. I think they just got the locals in there, including

22:51

the postal police. So the experience

22:53

makes so much difference, but I do think that.

22:55

Well, one of the, oh

22:57

my God, she had so many appeals and trials. And

23:00

Perugia was so backed

23:02

up that

23:03

her trial in September, 2013

23:05

was actually in Florence. And

23:08

then the trial that she was actually,

23:11

when she was finally declared innocent was

23:13

in Italy's Supreme Court. So

23:15

none of those rulings that had

23:18

any sway towards

23:20

them being innocent happened in Perugia.

23:23

So that's also really interesting.

23:26

Yeah, it's hard to know whether it would have been

23:28

a different outcome in one of the bigger cities

23:30

if, and you know, this is 2007 and that is an era, I

23:33

call it the before and after times, before

23:36

serial and after serial. I just feel like after

23:38

serial, we collectively have a better understanding

23:40

of how a lot of stuff works in criminal justice, including

23:42

how people can be pressured to falsely

23:44

confessing. There's an excellent series on Netflix called

23:47

The Confession Tapes. Now we get it. We can look

23:49

at this interrogation and say, that would break an

23:51

adult, you know, she's 20 years old.

23:53

She's a child, her brain is not even fully formed,

23:56

okay?

23:56

She's in a foreign country. She's only been there for a little

23:58

bit. Her parents aren't around. She has no... not even

24:00

an advocate next to her. I cannot

24:02

imagine. Remember when you were 20? Remember,

24:05

think about how much integrity could you have in a

24:07

situation like that? I was only 10 years ago for

24:09

me, so it's really easy.

24:11

I

24:14

was just looking up something because I remembered

24:17

something, and this is just on the Wikipedia,

24:19

the crime. There was this part

24:21

that was interesting to me too, because it's

24:24

about

24:24

the prosecutors. It says, Perugia,

24:27

it had fewer tourists than Florence, so

24:30

that's why she picked it. The city had reportedly

24:32

not had a murder for 20 years, but

24:34

its prosecutors had been responsible

24:36

for Italy's most controversial

24:39

murder cases. So they were already practiced

24:41

in like cuckoo, cuckoo bananas

24:44

prosecutions. A charge originated

24:46

by Perugia prosecutors resulted

24:49

in the 2002 conviction of

24:51

former Prime Minister Gioolo Andriati

24:54

for ordering the murder of journalist Carmine

24:56

Pecarelli and led to complaints

24:58

that the justice system had gone mad.

25:00

The Supreme Court took the unusual step of

25:02

definitively acquitting Andriati

25:05

the next year. So they had a bullshit

25:07

case already against the Prime Minister. And

25:09

then this is the one that jumped out

25:12

at me. In early 2002, Perugia

25:14

prosecutor Giuliano Minnini,

25:17

who enjoyed taking a detective-like

25:19

role and was later to be in charge of the Kercher

25:22

investigation, arraigned members

25:24

of a respectable Masonic Lodge

25:26

for an alleged conspiracy. Minnini

25:29

reportedly based the case on a theory

25:31

involving serial killings and satanic

25:34

rights.

25:35

Minnini investigated fellow prosecutors

25:38

for complicity in this supposed plot and

25:40

appealed dismissals of the charges.

25:42

There were no convictions in the case, which

25:44

eventually ended in 2010. So

25:47

it's just like, according to a scholar who researched

25:50

comparative law in Italy, selective

25:52

changes to the Italian legal system left

25:54

it unable to cope when a prosecutor

25:57

with Minnini's American-style adversarial

25:59

approach

25:59

used his powers to the fullest.

26:02

The imposing lead prosecutor, Giuliano

26:04

Menini, upped the ante today, showing

26:07

the shocked courtroom a gruesome slideshow,

26:10

including photos of Meredith Kercher's

26:12

slashed body and, for the first time

26:14

ever, close-ups of her wounds. He

26:17

appealed to the jury to uphold justice

26:19

for Meredith Kercher.

26:20

So basically, you had a showboating

26:23

prosecutor, who, you know, was

26:25

like, hey, let's, you know, like every murder. Like,

26:28

whenever I hear Satanist

26:30

conspiracy, I just, yeah,

26:32

right. You know, like,

26:35

that's just, that doesn't really happen. And

26:38

mostly, of course, you had this really

26:40

overzealous prosecutor, Menini, who

26:42

had this insane concept that it was all part

26:44

of a satanic cult, and no evidence for

26:46

it other than he just likes the theory. And

26:49

the picture that he painted at trial doesn't

26:52

fit the forensics at all. And what

26:54

trace evidence they say they have is now been proved

26:57

by this independent panel to be inconclusive

27:01

or too degenerated to be authentic, and

27:03

there's too little of it to retest. But it

27:06

was

27:06

in vogue for a while. Oh, it sure was. It sure was.

27:09

And where's the proof? Where's

27:11

any of this, you know, where are any of

27:13

these ritual killings? I mean, there's, you

27:15

know, there's sad stories of, like, kids,

27:18

you know, kids

27:20

doing it, but it's like, there's no, there's, you know, there's

27:23

not any anson-la vie involved,

27:25

you know?

27:26

Right, right. There's no handbook for

27:28

it that they're like... There's no grain conspiracy,

27:30

yeah. Well, that, Juliana,

27:34

he's a muppet. This man,

27:37

his eyebrows connect to his hair. He

27:39

is wild when you Google him. But

27:41

he was very melodramatic.

27:44

He would call, he would refer to

27:46

Amanda in the court as

27:49

she-devil. American

27:50

student Amanda Knox has been described

27:52

as a satanic, diabolical she-devil

27:54

at the appeal against her murder conviction in Italy.

27:57

He said that he needed to use this language to indicate

27:59

to the court...

27:59

just what sort of person Amanda Knox

28:02

was. And as he was making these statements, her

28:04

parents were sat to the side of her just shaking

28:06

their heads in awe as to how their

28:09

daughter was being described. And he closed

28:11

his final arguments by describing

28:13

her as a deceitful witch as well. He

28:15

would call her she- Imagine doing that

28:17

like in an American court. He was the one that

28:19

said Foxy Knoxy too, I

28:20

think. Yeah, and he

28:23

called her a Satan worshipper. And

28:26

now you mentioned in 2010 because

28:28

he was actually given a suspension.

28:31

He was given a 16-month suspension because

28:33

he was found guilty of exceeding

28:36

the powers of his office. I

28:39

was like, that's a really nice way of saying you

28:41

got an ego the size of Nebraska and you

28:44

stepped out of bounds. What's a bad word for Italian?

28:46

A goomba, ya big goomba.

28:50

I'm learning new things every day with you, Ellen. I have no

28:52

idea. You teach me about

28:54

law and I teach you how to be derogatory

28:56

to my culture. It's

28:58

an easy trade-off. Even exchange. But

29:00

yeah, that guy was a character. I'll

29:03

say this, Rudy Guitti's, I

29:05

don't know. I'm just gonna say Rudy. Rudy's attorney

29:07

and Rudy himself, they, okay,

29:10

he was an immigrant from the Ivory

29:12

Coast. He's a black man. They were

29:14

like, we're gonna go ahead and lean into this. They're

29:17

like, this is basically the person. And a lot of other

29:19

African immigrants who lived in the town, lived in the region, came

29:21

out of protest and his support, despite

29:23

this man leaving behind all this evidence, despite

29:25

him having a criminal history, despite

29:27

him admitting to even being there that night, he

29:30

really did kind of try to take advantage

29:32

and play on people's emotions that this is

29:34

all racially motivated, this prosecution of me. And

29:37

I had nothing to do with it. And it was like Amanda and,

29:39

you know, Rafael.

29:40

Now, by the way, he's out of prison now, you know? Amanda

29:43

Knox is speaking out to ABC News about

29:45

the release of Rudy Guitti, the only

29:47

person still serving time for the death of her

29:49

former roommate, Meredith Kercher.

29:52

I continue to stay

29:54

to be shocked that he is

29:57

the forgotten killer, the one

29:59

who was... quietly tucked away, convicted

30:02

of a lesser crime, and

30:05

does not have to live with

30:08

the burden of being forever associated

30:10

with Meredith's death. I

30:13

do know that many,

30:15

many, many people have suffered

30:19

a great deal because of what

30:21

he did. I do wish that

30:24

he had been fully held accountable

30:26

for what he did and that he

30:29

acknowledged what he did. He

30:31

was sentenced to 30 years. He appealed

30:33

and got 16 and only served 13 years.

30:36

He

30:39

was released from prison in 2015.

30:40

Community service. Yeah. Which

30:43

is like, that's always so amazing to me when you hear

30:45

about, you know, just, and it's not even

30:47

just Italy. It's like European law. Like

30:49

murder someone? No, you got to go to

30:51

prison for 13 years. Like

30:54

what? Like, I

30:55

think that should maybe have a little

30:58

bigger impact on your freedom than 13

31:00

years. Where would you land,

31:02

Andy? Where would you land? What would be your

31:04

number? For something like that. So I'll say this.

31:07

Internationally, about 25 is about where

31:09

a lot of like, kind of like the... Really? Where

31:11

for a violent murder where you stab someone numerous

31:14

times in the neck. Yeah. As

31:16

Americans, we are very conditioned to say, you took

31:19

a life, you lose your life. Yeah.

31:21

Well, that I don't agree with. Well, if somebody's locked up,

31:23

it's a life sentence, you're still losing your life in a

31:25

different way. So we're very conditioned that you're going to either

31:27

die in prison or you're going to be executed. If you kill

31:30

somebody, like that's, that's just how we're conditioned. But

31:32

in most the world, it's 25 years is about

31:34

the average. But what about the sexual assault as well? So

31:37

he was given 30, he served 13 for

31:40

the murder, but he was never charged with the sexual

31:42

assault. Well, you

31:45

know, what's interesting about that is the

31:47

evidence they had for the sexual assault, including

31:50

semen, sperm samples, they actually, and it

31:52

was never forensically

31:52

tested. They never, they just never,

31:55

there was literally, she was lying on top of a pillow.

31:57

There was a semen stain on

31:59

the pillow. underneath her legs and

32:02

on her thighs, they didn't test it. They just never

32:04

tested seminal fluid. They didn't DNA

32:06

testing. There was an Innocence Project

32:09

review of the case, and they said that almost

32:11

all the DNA evidence was

32:13

just not... They said, it proves

32:16

it's him, and it's like, no, they

32:18

just kind of said that. But the actual data

32:21

did not... They didn't push the data

32:23

far enough, and they didn't really test

32:25

it far enough. They could

32:26

have had more evidence. Yeah. They could have

32:28

had more evidence, yeah. Well, the evidence that they

32:30

kept going back to, to fit

32:32

the prosecutor's narrative, was

32:34

the murder weapon, which, spoiler...

32:37

They were fine in the apartment. They didn't find in

32:39

that flat, right? They did not find,

32:41

but they had proposed

32:43

that this similar knife, because you can't

32:46

judge what a knife is.

32:48

It's not like a gun where you could pinpoint

32:50

it back. But this knife that they found

32:53

in Rafaelle's flat had Amanda's

32:56

DNA on the handle, and

32:58

they said, well, you know, that could have

33:00

been from anything. And then they said, so

33:02

nothing was on the blade, no

33:04

DNA from Meredith or anyone. It

33:07

went

33:07

pretty hard on Amanda Knox. The judges

33:09

didn't grant any of the points of interest for

33:12

the Knox team, granted two for

33:14

her boyfriend, and two for the prosecution. What

33:16

the most important one is that they are raising

33:18

again the murder weapon, the knife, which was

33:21

discounted in the previous appeal. That's

33:23

being reintroduced, reevaluated

33:26

by forensic experts, and that perhaps may

33:28

be a key in this case. But clearly,

33:30

so far, the judges are

33:32

wanting to hear more from the prosecution than from

33:34

the defense in this trial.

33:36

And then the prosecution said, oh,

33:38

you know what? They probably cleaned it. That knife

33:40

looks too clean. They actually said

33:42

it looks too clean. And so

33:45

they were like, we're not convinced

33:47

that still might be the murder weapon.

33:49

If we're using conjecture, like they're

33:51

using about what gendered person would

33:55

put a duvet cover on someone, who murders

33:57

someone and then takes the knife back to

33:59

their house.

33:59

and puts it into their kitchen drawer.

34:03

Also, who cleans the

34:05

knife but doesn't clean the handle?

34:08

The part that you actually hold on to,

34:11

it's crazy

34:13

baffling.

34:14

A dumb murder, a dumb

34:16

sex crazed murder. Yeah. Yeah. That's who does it. Somebody

34:18

gets so horny, they're not thinking straight.

34:22

They're not thinking straight, but they're good enough

34:24

to erase only their DNA. Yeah.

34:26

From the entire crime scene. Yeah.

34:28

Yeah. They also kept saying

34:30

that it was a false negative.

34:32

They kept saying since there was no DNA

34:34

on the blood, they were like, the test is wrong.

34:37

Again, it's just that ego, I know more than

34:39

testing, I know more than DNA.

34:42

It's just the more I read,

34:45

the more I just kept face palming

34:47

and being like, my people, what is wrong with

34:49

you? You got to go fix it, Ellen. You

34:51

show up and be like, I'm a lawyer from America,

34:53

I can help. I know. It would make

34:55

a great reality show. It would make

34:58

the best reality show ever. Here's some

35:00

backup to in my notes, Andy,

35:02

I wrote also reasons why Italy

35:04

sucks. We're very, very, we're

35:07

very proper in our research, but

35:09

there is a backlog in this area

35:12

of 9 million cases. What?

35:16

Yeah. 42% of people

35:18

who are in jail, which is roughly about 28,000 people,

35:22

are awaiting trial and the

35:24

prison population is at 68,000. The

35:27

prisons are only meant to hold 45,000. Shit

35:30

is fucked up here, but shit is

35:32

also fucked up in Italy. Robby,

35:34

we need to go to Italy, I think, because

35:37

it's really messed up here. I don't think I'll do well

35:39

there. I can't pronounce the names. I can't.

35:42

Yeah. There's not enough guttural

35:44

sounds. That's

35:46

where my comfort is, like in that, that's

35:49

how we talk. Listen, every review of this

35:51

investigation, of the forensics of this case, has

35:53

been just like a

35:55

complete, you know what I mean? Like every,

35:58

every single, there's nothing they did right.

35:59

not a single thing, not a single test,

36:02

not how they handle anything, not how they process

36:04

anything. And their own, the

36:06

higher courts, actually some of the appellate courts

36:08

actually hired experts to review all that stuff.

36:10

And they're like, you got it all wrong. I also want

36:13

to point out it's ironic that we're

36:15

recording this about a week or so or 10 days

36:18

after a non-Sayed conviction was

36:20

reinstated for the second time. And

36:23

it's like the

36:24

justice system is like a wrecking

36:26

ball in a rubber band in cases because

36:28

they can flip flop back and forth so

36:30

much. And the appellate process and the

36:33

procedure that happened in this case, it was like

36:36

guilty, not guilty, guilty,

36:38

not guilty. And that's exactly what's happened in the non-Sayed

36:41

case. You see it all the time here. You're like, oh, I

36:43

mean, the court in Maryland was like, not only

36:45

were they like, we're in stating, reinstating the conviction,

36:47

but they're like, we're going to pretend we're going to, that

36:49

the prosecutor never

36:50

dropped the charges, which prosecutor dropped

36:52

the charges. And like, I'm still reeling from

36:54

that. And so is the legal community in America.

36:57

Like, what is the kind of precedent this ascends

36:59

when judges can just

37:01

decide that a prosecutor dropping

37:03

charges never happened. It's a nullity. That's

37:05

what they said in their opinion. But you know, so

37:07

when I read this, it wasn't that shocking to me because I'm like,

37:10

I'm seeing this unfold in front of me right now with

37:12

the Adan's case. But how hard

37:14

it is to undo a wrongful conviction.

37:16

That's the point I'm trying to get. How hard it is,

37:18

how long it takes, how many people

37:20

hold your lives in their hands and how

37:23

the truth

37:23

is so arbitrary, right? The truth

37:25

is different for every panel of judges looks at it, for

37:27

every single judge who looks at it. And then, but

37:31

it's, how can these judges look at the same exact

37:33

case over and over and come to completely different

37:35

conclusions, right? That's what keeps happening

37:37

in this entire appellate system with Amanda

37:40

and Rafaela's case. And we see it all the time

37:42

here too. So the system sucks.

37:45

That's what I'm trying

37:45

to say. It sucks. It's

37:47

so arbitrary. It's, I'll

37:51

again talk about

37:53

serving on this jury. The one

37:56

which it was- Yeah, I want to know your verdict. Where'd you land?

37:58

Well, I mean, just because, you know.

37:59

Because this isn't what the podcast is about

38:02

but i had never been on a jury

38:04

i had i had shown up for jury duty and

38:06

was dismissed for one reason or another and

38:08

the hilarious thing to me too which is very.

38:11

Humbling with how many people told me

38:13

what are you gonna you're on tv they're gonna

38:15

put you on a jury no i didn't

38:17

care. You know i

38:19

always was a little bit curious if

38:21

they didn't know who i was

38:24

my ex-wife one time she was in

38:26

jury duty and dan rather was

38:28

sitting there you know i mean how

38:30

are you gonna put dan rather on a jury

38:32

you know. I'm so i thought

38:35

maybe they just do influence yeah maybe

38:37

they didn't recognize me but then once the case

38:39

was over both the prosecution

38:42

and the defense are like big fan really

38:44

love your work. Okay

38:47

but apparently you know i don't know they wanted to keep

38:49

me around but the case was really

38:51

awful it was a two guys that work together

38:53

at a at a pallet yard in

38:56

south central la got off

38:58

work and just drank for

39:00

something like.

39:02

Eighteen hours just kept getting

39:04

more beer and then they started to joke

39:06

spar and it turned.

39:09

Then violent and they were and they were

39:11

left alone there were other people there and then they were

39:13

left alone and they started beating on each other

39:15

with boards and a piece of scaffolding

39:18

and eventually one of the guys

39:20

was on the ground and the other guy when

39:23

i got a gas can and emulated

39:25

him and. It took it took

39:27

a guy two days to die and

39:31

you know he was in the hospital it took him two days to

39:33

die that's horrific it was it was awful

39:36

and what is the defense how did this guy not

39:38

plead out i'm shocked they took to this to

39:40

trial how can they take this trial that was another thing that

39:42

was really striking to me was that the public

39:44

defender throughout the whole thing was saying well

39:47

you know how do you know that it was him or

39:49

you know did you see this man did you see

39:51

his face. You know you know

39:54

and then the men that were there before who would

39:56

say yes they started fighting and we pulled

39:58

them apart.

39:59

You know it. She never said, well, my

40:02

client,

40:03

she never let on

40:06

that the client was

40:09

guilty or that he did

40:11

it until her summation to the jury

40:14

in which she said, we all know my client did a

40:16

terrible thing. Up till then in the process,

40:20

she had always been like, well,

40:23

did you see him do it? Because

40:26

it was so obvious that it had happened.

40:28

I was saying, why didn't you plead out? I

40:31

was like, why would you take it as a trial? What's

40:33

your defense? How could you? Honestly, I don't

40:35

know. He thought he's going to beat

40:37

the charges? There wasn't any,

40:38

how do you plead? I

40:42

wasn't aware of that happening.

40:44

I don't remember there being- He

40:46

had not pled not guilty otherwise. They

40:48

wouldn't have gone to trial. Yeah. Well,

40:51

maybe just as the trial unfolded, the defense

40:53

was like, hey,

40:55

buddy, it's pretty obvious

40:57

what's happened here. I ended

40:59

up being the jury foreman

41:01

because when we went back to the

41:03

deliberations, the

41:08

judge gives us guidelines and

41:10

then we go and we get back in the

41:13

deliberation room and they

41:15

just put us in the room.

41:17

I'm

41:21

looking around and I was like, well, I think

41:23

the first thing we should do is pick

41:25

a foreman because we're supposed

41:27

to do that. Nobody

41:29

gave you any instructions. I mean, they

41:31

had said that, but that was it. They

41:35

all, three

41:37

people go like, why don't you do it? Just

41:39

because I was the first one that spoke up

41:42

and I was like, okay, I'll do it. But

41:44

we went at it for about, it was about two or

41:46

three days and I wanted first-degree

41:49

murder.

41:49

Wow, it took you that long. Yeah, I wanted

41:51

first-degree murder. Well, first of all, there

41:53

was one guy that was going to say

41:55

manslaughter. He's

41:59

been drunk.

41:59

He said, well, the

42:03

judge had already given us guidelines about how

42:05

much you can discount because of drunkenness

42:07

and how much you have to blame someone for drunkenness.

42:10

He also gave us the notion that premeditation

42:13

can happen a month ahead of time or 10

42:16

seconds ahead of time, which from my

42:18

perspective, the guy took the flow

42:20

arrestor off of the gas cap. There's the

42:22

thing that sort of like controls the flow of

42:24

the gas. He went, he had to walk

42:27

around to the other side of a truck.

42:28

He took that thing and he threw it off. I said,

42:31

if he maybe if he hit him and the guy died

42:33

from being beaten, maybe

42:35

you could say it was a crime of passion, but he

42:37

went and got a gas can and

42:40

then flicked matches to

42:42

light it on the guy and took the

42:44

flow arrestor off to get as much gas

42:46

on him as fine. There was a guy that worked

42:48

for Caltrans who was the first

42:51

one to go like, it's manslaughter,

42:53

I think.

42:54

And I was like, how is this manslaughter?

42:56

He said, it was a crime of passion.

42:58

There was heightened emotion.

43:00

And I said, I think you'll find that heightened emotion

43:02

is a hallmark of all homicides. So,

43:05

I don't think it really. You

43:07

were a good foreman. Yeah, well, the rest of

43:09

the people were like, yeah, yeah, no, it's murder, it's

43:11

murder. So then we had to go back and forth between first

43:14

and second. And it got down to just this

43:16

guy that worked for Caltrans, which in my mind,

43:18

because

43:18

he had said he worked for Caltrans. I

43:20

was like, this guy has

43:23

a state job. He can sit

43:25

in here for three months and

43:27

get paid. Like he doesn't have

43:30

to go to work. He gets his full salary

43:32

because it's a state job.

43:33

So I just realized, and he just

43:36

wasn't gonna budge from second degree, which- He

43:38

didn't wanna go back to work. Yeah, the judge did tell

43:40

us it's really hard to convict someone of first

43:42

degree murder. You think like, oh, no, no, he

43:44

murdered him, but it's hard when it's your responsibility.

43:47

But

43:48

as I told the rest of them, I said, I wanna

43:50

give this guy an A plus in murder, because

43:52

this is gruesome what he did. Right,

43:54

yeah. So we ended up with second

43:57

degree, which just because- He did.

43:59

We- That one guy won. Yeah.

44:02

Oh, man. But it made

44:04

a difference to me

44:05

that the difference between first-degree murder and

44:07

second-degree murder is lifetime

44:10

without parole is first degree, and then

44:12

second degree is lifetime, and then after 25

44:14

years, you get that chance at

44:16

parole. I was like, okay. The sentence

44:19

was okay. Yeah. The guy's in

44:21

prison for 25 years, guaranteed

44:23

or whatever, closely guaranteed. Yeah.

44:26

I know why I brought it up. In going through

44:28

this whole thing and being

44:30

in the courthouse, which is its own such a

44:33

strange, weird

44:35

atmosphere of soap opera

44:38

and DMV, like exciting

44:40

and boring.

44:41

Yeah. It's the greatest

44:43

thing. I mean, I was struck by,

44:46

this is so flawed, this is

44:48

so clunky, but

44:50

I don't know any other way to do this.

44:52

I don't know any other way than requiring

44:55

citizens to sit in here and

44:58

do this thing, and pass judgment

45:00

when somebody murder somebody, or when somebody

45:02

cheat somebody, or somebody steal something

45:04

from somebody. I don't know any other way.

45:07

I mean, because some countries, they just have

45:09

a judge pass the judgment, and that doesn't

45:11

seem right. That seems really

45:14

ripe for abuse. It's

45:16

like, yeah, this

45:18

is a really messed up system. It's

45:20

a really clunky, crappy system.

45:22

But

45:22

what else are you going to do? How else are you going

45:24

to decide these

45:25

things? Yeah. Yeah. No, I completely

45:27

agree. Even given its

45:29

flaws, I would say that we

45:32

have probably one of the best systems in the world, but

45:34

the flaws exist, and mostly they're in the adversarial

45:37

aspect of it. Mostly it's in things like the

45:39

defendant not getting access to investigative

45:42

fine, things like that. The prosecutor having way too

45:44

much power. That's what it's a

45:45

bit of a time balance. Or a cash bail, all of that stuff

45:47

that just is. Right. Like,

45:49

otherwise, if those things didn't

45:52

exist, if you can make those fixes, it could

45:54

be a fairly equitable system if the

45:56

defendant is actually given a fair chance. But

45:58

there was a very good chance.

45:59

that they had all of those appeals

46:02

and everything turned over, there

46:04

was a good chance they could have gone away for a very

46:06

long time. They were up against 28

46:09

and a half years in Raphael A for 27 years.

46:12

But on March 27,

46:15

2015, both Amanda Knox and Raphael A

46:17

were declared innocent in the murder of

46:19

Meredith Kirchherr by the Italian Supreme

46:22

Court. We've

46:22

got breaking news. We want to welcome our viewers in

46:24

the United States and around the world. I'm Wolf Pitzer

46:27

in Washington. Judges at Italy's Supreme

46:29

Court, they have just announced their verdict

46:32

as far as a potential retrial

46:34

of American Amanda Knox

46:37

in the murder of her one-time roommate Meredith

46:39

Kirchherr, our CNN contributor, Barbie Nadeau,

46:42

is joining us on the phone right now from

46:44

Rome. What's the verdict, Barbie?

46:46

Well, the high court in Italy today

46:48

decided to overturn the murder convictions,

46:51

and we had assumed that would come with

46:53

an automatic retrial on the appellate level

46:55

again. But we understand in the court what they've

46:57

read today is they're throwing it out entirely.

46:59

There will not be a retrial of Amanda Knox

47:02

and her boyfriend Raphael A. Tulisio are

47:04

free. The case is closed. It's over.

47:08

And justice as far as the Italian court

47:10

system has ruled is done

47:13

at this point. The case is over. That whole

47:15

journey from 2007, it did not end until 2015.

47:16

I'm really overwhelmed right now. I

47:22

was looking down from the airplane, and

47:25

it seemed like everything wasn't real.

47:28

What's

47:30

important for me to say is just thank you to

47:33

everyone who has believed

47:35

in me,

47:37

who has defended me, who has supported

47:40

my family. More for Amanda

47:42

Knox, only because she's here,

47:45

she's Amanda Knox for the rest

47:47

of her life. I'm sure her

47:49

life journey in those years

47:51

from 2015 to now, I'm

47:53

sure our whole separate

47:56

host of ... There is a large

47:58

group of

47:59

people online who still very, very

48:02

much talk about and tweet about

48:04

and Reddit about her

48:06

guilt. That is still a

48:08

big little corner section

48:11

of the internet. They're crazy. You know

48:13

what? I have to say. Well, Amanda Knox,

48:15

I mean, the day

48:18

after that your producer emailed

48:20

me about doing the show and I said, yeah, well, let's do

48:22

Amanda Knox. The next day, there's

48:24

some kind of story that some privileged kid says,

48:30

studying in Florence sucks, just

48:32

wrote some op-ed. Amanda

48:34

Knox tweets, I think studying

48:36

abroad is very rewarding or something

48:39

like that. She makes it her

48:41

own joke about it. Yeah. Yeah.

48:44

Which again, that seems like Amanda

48:47

Knox maybe has judgment.

48:50

Maybe she

48:52

has some trouble making good

48:54

judgments. Possibly.

48:57

Yeah. I will say this. I think Amanda Knox

48:59

has been an incredible advocate for herself though.

49:01

Yes. She really has. Now for innocence

49:04

and the wrong for the accused, especially

49:06

for women. Yeah. She was given a spotlight, I

49:11

don't think she wanted, at a very young age and

49:14

completely out of her control. She

49:17

has done everything she can to take her narrative

49:19

back to the extent that she can. I do

49:21

admire her for that. But yeah, that's pretty

49:23

tongue in cheek right there. I

49:27

didn't

49:27

see that tweet. What do you guys think

49:29

was the engine behind their exoneration?

49:32

Was it international pressure?

49:35

Was the American Embassy

49:37

pushing about

49:38

it? My understanding is that that

49:40

court did a thorough review of

49:42

the DNA evidence. They're like, it's

49:45

all the evidence points to this guy. That's what

49:47

I understand. They hired some independent experts. There

49:49

was an appeal, just a standard

49:51

regular appeal like there is on every big

49:54

case like that. Yeah. The convictions were overturned,

49:57

then reinstated. The

50:00

defendants again appealed the reinstatement and then

50:02

the Supreme Court returned it again.

50:05

I don't know to what extent

50:07

international pressure or media

50:09

would have made a difference at this point, but Amanda

50:13

was already in the United States, by the way, even when

50:15

her conviction was reinstated. She had already returned

50:17

to America. She didn't come in back. She did not

50:19

go back to stand for any of the appeals

50:21

or anything. I do wonder what would have happened if

50:23

they had upheld that reinstatement of her conviction

50:26

at the final Supreme level. I

50:29

don't even, they have a

50:29

lot of, they have a lot of appellate courts going all

50:31

the way up. Would they have extradited her from

50:33

the U.S.? Like what they would have done. She's like, I am not going

50:35

back. She didn't go back for the trial, but

50:37

also another difference between

50:40

Italian justice system is that that's

50:43

straight up double jeopardy because

50:45

they, they retried

50:47

her for when- No, no, it's not double jeopardy.

50:50

It's not double jeopardy. How is that not double jeopardy?

50:52

Because she, double jeopardy happens when you go

50:54

through an actual trial and you are acquitted.

50:57

The trials you're talking about, what

50:59

we refer to them in America are not,

51:01

they call them appellate trials. They're actually appeals

51:03

hearings. It's not a whole trial with

51:05

all the evidence presented in a prosecutor. But

51:08

the trial in 2013 was the guilty verdict.

51:13

No, that was the one-

51:15

Okay. They call it a trial. I got confused

51:17

with the language too. They're calling it a trial. They're

51:19

actually, it's just part of the appeals process. The

51:21

trial happens at the fundamental level and

51:23

then you keep appealing up. When we

51:25

appeal up in America, all the things

51:27

that happen in court, we call them hearings. They're calling

51:30

them trials. So the, do

51:32

you understand what I'm saying? Like they're just appealing

51:35

though.

51:35

It's not an actual trial. Right, but my question

51:38

of when, because the

51:40

acquit, they were trying to get, they were acquitted.

51:43

Right, because on the appellate level, that's what can

51:45

happen. I mean, same thing happened to none. Conviction

51:48

vacated, conviction reinstated, conviction

51:50

vacated, conviction reinstated. But what the court,

51:52

all the appellate courts are doing are reviewing

51:55

the initial trial. And in order

51:57

to be protected under double jeopardy,

51:59

you have to be-

51:59

If you are acquitted, here, let me give you

52:02

an example. If you are acquitted at trial, the

52:04

prosecutor cannot appeal that. And

52:07

you cannot be tried for that crime over again. At

52:09

trial. Once you're in the appellate system, it's

52:11

just gonna be flip-flopping back and forth. Whoever loses just appeals

52:13

up. Right, okay. Yeah, and

52:16

Andy, something in my notes about

52:18

your question before, they did have some

52:21

support from the Idaho Innocence

52:23

Project. I don't know why Idaho. That's

52:25

interesting. What's your main takeaway, Andy, of

52:28

everything that we've talked about and everything

52:29

of the case? What's your main takeaway?

52:32

Oh, boy. Watch your Ps and

52:34

Qs in Italy, I guess. I

52:37

think that needs to

52:39

be the title of the episode. Yeah,

52:45

I mean, it really does seem like

52:47

it's crazy to hear this story. And

52:50

even to know that, even within

52:52

Italian justice, this is

52:55

like

52:55

hillbilly

52:57

justice. This is crazy,

52:58

made-up, ego-driven justice, even

53:04

within the Italian system, which

53:06

just kind of seems, I mean, just

53:08

a little bit of reading about it, I did. It's

53:11

impenetrable. How does this all work?

53:15

So yeah, I mean,

53:17

that would be kind of the main thing, I guess,

53:20

and like you guys kept saying, these

53:22

are 20-year-old kids. And I

53:25

guess also the other thing would be to,

53:29

if you go to your apartment and you see blood and the doors

53:31

are locked, call the cops and stay outside. I

53:33

mean, I think

53:35

that probably could have helped them too. I've

53:39

been wanting never letting my kids study abroad. Yeah,

53:42

that's a no. Just

53:45

another support for cognitive bias

53:47

because they just made this

53:50

story fit the loose narrative that

53:52

they had, and also Italians are fucking

53:54

crazy.

53:54

You can say that.

53:57

We can't. Yeah. Another

53:59

cautionary. tale again for us not to

54:01

get sucked in by the media

54:03

circus around any case. I think we always

54:06

have to remember in most of these cases, we're actually

54:08

not going to know what really happened for maybe decades

54:10

onwards, a decade or two late. Like we will not

54:12

get the actual facts. Thank

54:15

you so much, Andy.

54:16

Andy Wegman Thanks for having

54:18

me, guys. I'm honored

54:20

and flattered and happy to be here.

54:22

Nicole You are always welcome. Thank you

54:24

for sharing this story. This is a

54:26

great story. I was hoping we would cover it at

54:28

some point. And it's just an honor to

54:30

have you do it with us. Nicole When you go into Italy

54:32

next, Andy. Andy

54:34

Well, I

54:36

got a honeymoon coming up. But I think

54:39

that's gonna be in Greece, I think. I think we're going

54:41

to Greece. Nicole

54:42

Oh, they're crazy too. Nicole

54:44

Congrats on your nuptials. Andy

54:46

Thank you very much. Nicole Are

54:49

you guys doing a big thing? Are you just doing

54:51

a casual affair? Andy We're in

54:52

a venue that's a, it's an event

54:55

venue, but it's a house. So it's kind

54:57

of like just a nice kind of low key

55:00

house party because

55:02

the, it just, you

55:04

know, I mean, we're, she's

55:06

gonna be 47 on 56. We don't,

55:08

you know, we're not,

55:13

we're not blushing teens. We,

55:16

you know, because we even

55:18

talked about let's go to city hall, you

55:20

know, but, but no, so it's

55:22

just gonna, it's gonna, we want to have a nice party

55:25

for family and friends. And she's from LA.

55:27

So she has a lot of family here. So we

55:29

definitely

55:30

Nicole Well, it's very exciting. Congratulations

55:32

to both of you. I can't wait to see pictures because

55:34

I know they'll be all over Instagram, right? Andy Ah, some

55:37

I guess. Nicole Hopefully.

55:39

Well, we can't thank you enough.

55:41

And we so enjoyed speaking with

55:43

you. And we hope you'll come back one day. Nicole Wait,

55:46

where can folks find you if they want to like, follow

55:48

you? Where are you active on social media? Andy

55:50

Well, I'm at Andy

55:52

Richter on Twitter for you know,

55:54

and the clock is ticking on that. So get me while

55:56

I'm still there. Or while

55:58

it's while it still exists.

55:59

And on Instagram, I am at

56:02

Richter comma Andy. All the words, R-I-C-H-T-E-R-C-O-M-M-A-A-N-D-Y.

56:08

And my podcast, the three questions, you

56:10

can get it wherever you get podcasts. Whatever

56:13

street dealer you find your podcast. All

56:15

right, well,

56:16

okay. That's how

56:18

to do it. You gotta invite yourself. Yeah.

56:22

We adore you and thank you so

56:24

much for joining us. Go on and keep going with us. Thanks

56:26

guys. Thank you. I'll see you later. Thank

56:29

you so much. We are coming to you from the future

56:31

and I have a male couple. You know what a male couple

56:33

is because you're, what is male couple? It doesn't,

56:36

you're a lawyer. Something to make right. You have to

56:38

make right. That's right. Oh good. It's

56:40

not just legal lingo. Okay. I totally

56:43

effed up. This is really fun for me right

56:45

now. This is really fun for me. If you could

56:47

see my hands, I'm just, okay, go ahead, Raviya,

56:49

take it away.

56:50

She's just twiddling her thumbs as I basically

56:53

apologize for completely effing

56:56

up the conversation around

56:58

double jeopardy and whether or not they were tried

57:00

again because it's not how it happens in

57:03

an American system. And I kept, as I was reading

57:05

on the case, I kept thinking they're calling them trials.

57:07

What they really mean is their hearings and maybe

57:09

the translation, you know, Italiano is

57:11

a little bit complicated. It wasn't translating, but Ellen

57:14

Marsh, attorney at law was

57:16

correct. I

57:19

will say this feels really, really

57:21

good, but I will also

57:23

say it's very confusing. It's,

57:25

it's really confusing. So much so when I

57:28

read it and then you explained it, I was like, oh,

57:30

maybe I am confused. It's very

57:33

confusing. Yeah, but you know what this

57:35

means is that like, if you're going through the criminal

57:38

justice in Italy, you are not protected by the

57:40

double jeopardy like protection that we have in America,

57:42

which means if you've been actually acquitted once, over

57:45

there, you can actually be retried again during

57:48

an appellate

57:48

process, which never happens here.

57:50

Right, so just to recap, I

57:53

was right. Yeah, that's, I'm gonna make that t-shirt

57:55

fine, Ellen. I wanna give some

57:57

sleeping socks as Ellen was right. Oh gosh,

57:59

this.

57:59

This feels so good, I can't even put it into

58:02

words, but I feel like I'm gonna harken

58:04

back to this several times. I was just lecturing

58:07

you, I was like, no, no, let me explain this to you, Ellen,

58:09

how it works. I didn't know, I totally thought

58:11

I misunderstood. It is very confusing.

58:13

Ellen came with the receipts. It was like 2 a.m., suddenly

58:15

my phone beeps and

58:18

Ellen's like, here's some receipts, girl. Here's

58:21

some receipts, wake up bitch. Oh, I do love making

58:23

this podcast with you, Robbie. It's

58:25

only to prove me wrong all the time. Yeah,

58:29

there'll be

58:29

more to come. If you are having a

58:32

good time, please head on over to the Patreon

58:34

and join us there. We are giving you all

58:36

kinds of bonus episodes. We're

58:38

giving you extras, we're giving you ad

58:40

free. We're giving you a virtual hangout, which

58:42

we need to plan. We're gonna have- Speak

58:44

pipe episodes. Speak pipe episodes. We're

58:47

giving you so much bonus content.

58:49

You can find plans as little as $5 a month.

58:52

We would love for you to come join the fun

58:55

and we just, we love making this show for you.

58:57

Yeah, we love it. Come join us. You

58:59

know what would be fun, Ellen? I was thinking we should like get

59:02

listeners to join us once in a while for a Patreon

59:04

episode. That would be fun. That would

59:06

be fun. I would love that. Let's do that.

59:09

And also don't forget our live show. Oh,

59:11

yes, May 4th Atlanta. May 4th, head

59:13

on over to any of our socials, click

59:16

on the see us live link and you can come

59:18

see us live in Atlanta, our very

59:20

first live show in Atlanta,

59:22

May 4th at 8 p.m. Okay,

59:25

I want to see you there, Ellen.

59:26

See you there. I was right.

59:29

Shut up.

59:32

It's gonna echo in my ears tonight

59:34

as I sleep. I was right.