0:08

This. Week on Rob going on Solve

0:10

the Case minus L and I am so

0:12

excited to welcome our guest on the show,

0:14

Joshua Davis and Kyle Mclachlan. Thank you for

0:17

joining a show. Banks remote. Thanks for

0:19

having very for you Got my name

0:21

you pronounce it perfectly Thank you. So

0:23

did I do Degree John Mclaughlin is

0:25

that of my daughter's It is why

0:27

it is Mclachlin Scottish. Land where

0:29

you know I come from South Asia and I'm

0:31

Muslim, so we speak Arabic a lot and so

0:33

there's a lot of our our I can do

0:36

a. Of their throat is right at home and

0:38

go out. go this. Very good. Can

0:41

make up stuff I don't really need to

0:43

introduce like either one of your your both

0:45

epic but I will just as a formality

0:47

for those of you who live under a

0:49

rock. Heil is an Emmy nominated Golden Globe

0:51

winning actor. I think the entire world discovered

0:53

him first. maybe on a global scale as

0:56

F B I Agent Dale Cooper in Twin

0:58

Peaks and then in the Revival of a

1:00

Twin Peaks in A Which again I was

1:02

nominated for a Golden Globe for that and

1:04

Two Thousand Seventeen Call Made his feature film

1:06

debut in a science fiction classic Do and

1:08

How My Lord. Now called Dune eighty Four.

1:10

Now we go trying to do need to. And

1:13

eighty Four Hours by Blue Velvet. I mean

1:15

you have so so many film and Tv

1:17

credits your name but most recent years seems

1:19

seen as Thomas Edison and Tesla and I

1:21

did not know you were the voice of

1:23

the died in Pixar. didn't shout out which

1:26

I watch eighty Five times. Yes, and what

1:28

isn't grief? I really love it. For me,

1:30

it's. Lovely. Are you part of? There's a second one

1:32

coming out. Our second? Yeah. Yeah I am. I came

1:34

and I did a little bit recording from second

1:36

one of excited about that one as well when.

1:38

Was that one hundred more times with

1:41

math last year? old? But yeah. Also,

1:43

I understand that you have channeled

1:45

an interest in the world of wine

1:47

into a winery, owner and vintner and

1:50

you talk about your what what

1:52

is your wine shop, winery, winery. Or

1:54

yeah, I have a little tasting. You have

1:56

a winery of a tasting room. The official

1:58

title I started in Two Thousand Five. The

2:01

name of the brand is pursued by Bear

2:03

which is a reference to a Shakespeare play.

2:05

A Shakespeare States Direction I should say in

2:07

the Winter's Tale and Them and making yeah

2:09

been doing it for a long time when

2:11

we have a place in Walla Walla. So

2:14

with your in Eastern Washington, come on over

2:16

my host. You. Would have event know I

2:18

I don't drink. I don't know anything about this

2:20

world about what I know, what a winery. Unrest

2:22

and or winery avoids of that vintners why

2:24

on the brand and I'm responsible for everything

2:27

that goes on. But I have a winemaker

2:29

who have been working with Now Foods is

2:31

almost since the beginning named Dan Wampler and

2:33

so it's really he and I that makes

2:36

the decisions on you know how the ones

2:38

made what goes into the wine and I

2:40

grew up in Eastern Washington's i'm from Yakima.

2:42

Originally I jokingly say this we make wine

2:45

in my backyard which is almost so while

2:47

the well as by two hours away but

2:49

it's very super. And so I

2:51

I'm I'm in charge and I'm responsible and

2:53

I take it very seriously. We we've got

2:56

will have seven wines by this fall. Twenty

2:58

years there have been is crazy. It's amazing

3:00

how almost long as my acting. While.

3:02

I mean, if I'm ever up in that area, I'd love to take

3:04

a lot. Dwight the other two com and I'll

3:06

let you start young smells and elsewhere. Let the

3:09

last he says he the last around. And

3:11

come on, thank you for being on and

3:13

then we have. Joshua Davis was a journalist

3:15

some for his or near times bestselling author

3:17

and the cofounder. Of Epic Magazine.

3:20

And. Dash Why has then and professional

3:22

journalists. A reporter? I mean covering

3:24

harry places like the Iraq War

3:27

for Wired Magazine? Are you so

3:29

Contributing editor for Wired? Nice? Good

3:31

question? I don't know. I

3:35

get I settlers and that they may still

3:38

have me on the masthead. I haven't checked

3:40

the I, but so you don't exercise your

3:42

power there anymore. As much as saying, I'm

3:44

so focused on publishing an epic that that's

3:46

them. That's where my energy does. Or you

3:48

also, I mean, are a published New

3:50

York Times bestselling author with a book

3:52

spare parts that with also turn into

3:54

a film. At the key Tulsa ethic

3:57

has your a founder of adding yeah

3:59

so epic. Was a reaction

4:01

to the collapses. Modern.

4:03

Journalism as we know it. As we

4:05

moved into like the Digital Arab and

4:07

the advertising switched from being print to

4:10

being digital, the amount of money that

4:12

was available to people who were publishing

4:14

investigative work went down so became much

4:16

harder to be an investigative journalists because

4:18

a banner ad pays pennies on the

4:20

dollar compared to what print ads used

4:22

to pay. And so I formed Epic

4:24

to try to preserve the the with

4:26

still feels to me like the dying

4:28

art of investigative journalism by coming up

4:30

with new ways of supporting it. A

4:33

new. Business Model And so this is

4:35

our tenth anniversary. We've been successful. We

4:37

publish probably eight to ten stories a

4:40

year. Just staff. Reporters and journalists are

4:42

due. Like is it like you know freelancers

4:44

can also be like. I. Want to

4:46

submit freelancers computers hundred percent year. We

4:48

get pissed every day. So please if

4:51

you have a good story that us

4:53

and we have the resources to send

4:55

people around the world to go. Investigate

4:58

Stories: We tend to be more

5:00

focused on the human scale side

5:02

of a story, so it's not

5:04

like we're going to necessarily try

5:07

to take down a big multinational

5:09

corporation. We're going to be interested

5:11

in the individual. Somebody. Who's

5:13

trying to do something difficult or has

5:15

gotten into a tight spot and is

5:17

having an emotional experience and that may

5:20

end up being somebody who's a whistle

5:22

blower at a multinational corporation, but our

5:24

way and is through that one person's

5:26

point of view. And I

5:28

saw that you have managed to sell many

5:30

the articles to be adapted into film and

5:32

tv series said that is that like the

5:34

money making model. And A that, then yeah,

5:37

that's how we survive. We publish the work,

5:39

and then survive on the afterlife of it

5:41

if it gets adapted and it just amazes.

5:43

It's just so happens that there's a dovetailing

5:45

of our sensibilities like our focus on the

5:47

human experience as a natural jumping off point

5:50

for a movie or Tv. So I had

5:52

a couple crazy stories v M M S

5:54

Get Something I'm ready at. I also

5:56

learned that you are a

5:58

national arm wrestling. Like ranked

6:00

arm wrestlers? Yeah, don't ever out? Yeah

6:03

right. arm wrestling. Me sir is is

6:05

very. I'll have you tried. Have you

6:07

attempted been humiliated by. Dallas to he looks

6:09

like but he's very strong is it's just

6:11

that one arm. He's got forearms like Popeye.

6:14

You like Popeye was your forearms. I qualified

6:16

for the Us National Arm Wrestling Team with

6:18

my right arm, not with my left, so

6:20

it's my right arm that stronger. Have

6:23

you train so that users are missile. Over and over

6:25

the list a lot without. you do a

6:27

lotta arm wrestling critically in my case. and

6:29

and those of us who qualify with one

6:31

arm that very narrow weight or bands like

6:33

wrestling like any kind of wrestling and so

6:35

you have to really focus on not jumping

6:38

out of that your weight category. but you

6:40

want to get as big as possible Now

6:42

arm that your wrestling. So what I ended

6:44

up doing was getting one. my right arm

6:46

got huge and and then I am a

6:48

seated the left side of my body. I

6:51

didn't do anything, I wouldn't do anything with

6:53

my left hand so. My friends are

6:55

calling me the cloth a really bad

6:57

idea though in general for less. There

6:59

was one guy they are a Russian

7:02

competitor who showed up to the World

7:04

Championship. Missing. A leg and you

7:06

can imagine what that would do to his

7:08

weight class. Wow. So he had the body

7:10

of a guy who was a hundred and

7:12

eighty pounds but he was wrestling down in

7:14

the one forty range. Yeah, so he was

7:16

beaten everybody with that arm. He was destroy.

7:19

He would. Yeah he we kind of limp

7:21

up to the wrestling table on crutches and

7:23

then drop drop the crutches and grabbed the

7:25

wrestling table and then just destroy. Everybody he

7:27

got were that are like on purpose. I

7:29

think that's one thing I've read. I did

7:31

hear a rumor. yeah I did hear a

7:33

rumor that he in Russia. It's. Professional you

7:35

get paid it's you get a house if

7:37

you're the best the best you get a

7:40

car and he started losing and the one

7:42

eighty class and when I heard was that

7:44

he did to bet you can view this

7:46

is a number of different ways but he

7:49

got very drunk one night and they found

7:51

him on the train track the next morning

7:53

missing a leg. Oh now that we live

7:55

on top of everything is like now we

7:57

are bringing this championship home. I

8:00

gotta hear the story. You think I'm I've

8:02

told Social that a backer I haven't talked

8:04

about. I don't know what actually brought us

8:06

together, but it seems to be Business as

8:08

a Party has worked on together. Violent Sound

8:10

File Tommy have a similar. Well. I'd

8:12

heard the story of front of a friend

8:14

of a friend kind of deal. Very compelling,

8:17

very strange. couldn't didn't really know what to

8:19

make of it. Item of the organic so

8:21

make that way to who it who a

8:23

yard The lady of whom we who first

8:25

broke the story to friend of my wife's

8:28

i'm Lynn bets the organic soap tycoon. I

8:30

like to use the word tycoon takes him.

8:32

She doesn't refer to as over the taken

8:34

but I like the nothing, just likes it.

8:37

She. Retired she retired she solar company of

8:39

the gentleman who helped to make that sale

8:41

was up a partner venture partner with my

8:43

wife and does she saw the company's moved

8:45

and farm town that retire with her husband

8:47

and while there see maybe coins of a

8:49

guy named deal barnum and she heard they'll

8:52

story and she related to a gym with

8:54

him is near who did the deal for

8:56

heard the selling of a company and near

8:58

told deseret and as i told me and

9:00

we said this is oh so strange I

9:02

heard the story second third hand but we

9:04

did a research looked into it and it

9:07

sounded. So strange because I have not heard

9:09

the story before. Side story it's it exists but

9:11

it's I mean is so local. Any understand why

9:13

we you actually go to our hometown because in

9:15

the middle of nowhere so little community of three

9:17

hundred people nothing happens there. But I thought well

9:20

this would be fun to explore. Who do I

9:22

want to go explore O S Possessed Not it's

9:24

not my is not my thing you know and

9:26

I said you know this is Josh Davis He's

9:28

perfect for this and if we get into trouble

9:30

I know he's a champion armor slur. He'll be

9:33

able to get us out of any kind of

9:35

scary and ten that we get internet. so underwriter.

9:37

He's a huge as I knew each other. You are

9:40

friendly and among holly. Yeah, as long as we don't

9:42

come across a one legged Russian, I'm fine. But

9:45

it was. It was like that and and I

9:47

I basically said to him what do you think

9:49

of this is is something that's worth exploring and he

9:51

said yes absolutely And from there I we I

9:53

was. You know I was in his hands. We

9:55

put together a small team to go down. We went

9:58

to my home town from a six day. These

10:00

of interviews that were orchestrated by

10:02

Linlin Bats helped set up many

10:04

of them. She was our way

10:06

into this quite insular community, but

10:08

people were really excited to tell

10:10

their story after all these years

10:12

and we're really forthcoming. For those

10:14

adult now at one time is about basically

10:16

via entire the place where it's against a

10:19

little town web. Apparently Pablo as part of

10:21

the deal and in early eighties with this

10:23

town to be part of his drug smuggling

10:25

are to be like the hub of the

10:28

drug smuggling on as the an east coast

10:30

right and so his planes and ships would

10:32

arrive in that area and everybody was in

10:35

on it. I mean or have benefited from

10:37

it and I've listened to the first two

10:39

episodes I just ordered the third one. I

10:41

am a hot and already I love less.

10:44

T who just couldn't even or into

10:46

the himself without actually given the south

10:48

away A C Eyes to Roger is

10:50

just a hero and in these characters

10:53

are amazing. I love small town characters.

10:55

Their larger than life the i think Roger

10:57

for me caps as it were a good

10:59

portion of the town agreed to the deal

11:01

with i don't actually have the preside that

11:03

crowding out like a percentage number but a

11:05

lot of people were in on it. and

11:08

then you have Roger say no, I don't

11:10

think this is a good idea and standing

11:12

up against all of his neighbors to say

11:14

no and that's a better than. I guess the

11:16

Cartel. I mean how it is a lie. Or tell

11:18

yeah against the Cartel against that the police the

11:20

police chief in the area who was in on

11:22

it we we come to find out it's crazy

11:25

and then he a when he's not getting any

11:27

response he he tries to level up and he

11:29

ends up going all the way to Ronald Reagan.

11:31

That's the point where I'm at and i the

11:34

rest of my day after we finished recording of

11:36

gonna be like been doing the rest your ssssss.

11:38

I do wrongful conviction work and so the most

11:40

isolated cases come out. A small town because of

11:43

the entrenched power, the families that go back forever.

11:45

all the secrets of a high and I just

11:47

love it. And the fact that the Reason is

11:49

called Barnum Town is what. Are they have

11:51

Arnhem voices of folks passing out.

11:54

There a lot of people named yarn of the sheriff's

11:56

the server. The neighboring town is read Barnum or the

11:58

one of the main care. They'll Barnum and

12:00

lot of items around. Where's that from?

12:02

Where is that? what party Europe is

12:05

that for? I'm trying to figure out

12:07

where the guns as died. Okay mm

12:09

well. it's a fantastic shows and I'm

12:11

seeking to our audience. Now haven't checked it

12:13

out. Please check it out. It is so so bad

12:15

and I love the way it's or to produce. Had

12:17

a three digestible and it's just it's fun and fascinating.

12:19

Before we get into the case robin actually gonna talk

12:22

about today we'd do a little thing called three quick

12:24

things were as you guys a couple of questions and

12:26

then we start talking about the case I'm well as

12:28

each of you one question and then there's a third

12:30

question them as both a good. So the first question

12:33

is for club and this is the me really. Hard

12:35

question how I think it's gonna make as I

12:37

would have trouble answering this on your behalf but.

12:39

How what is your favorite? Role you have

12:41

ever played Poker it is a tough

12:43

question you know I probably have to

12:45

point of the one is propped up

12:48

and would imagine the most popular spiel.

12:50

Cooper you such a complex guy but

12:52

he has so much of me and

12:54

him were job of enjoyed as he's

12:56

got a sense of speed. Playfulness is

12:58

gonna sense of fun for the serious

13:00

side of course got great empathy is

13:03

very curious about people, he holds judgment

13:05

know tries to hold judgment and I

13:07

got to work with the best characters

13:09

on that show. Story. With Mike on

13:11

Keen all the way down and I'm always

13:13

loved it. And then we got to do

13:16

the return and David asked me to do

13:18

these other characters in addition which I was

13:20

at initially little intimidated because I haven't really

13:22

done those kind of things like like that

13:25

is as far as I need to go

13:27

and I'm very proud of the that work

13:29

and earn So I think that whole experience

13:31

the Twin Peaks experience has been pretty special

13:34

and I I have a lot of gratitude

13:36

for both. have a Twin Peaks of sequences.

13:39

I mean the show itself obviously with the scene

13:41

on that was something that was as nobody had

13:43

ever seen anything like ads and I'm it's just

13:45

one of those kind of iconic shows that in

13:47

as he grew up in an era it's author

13:49

and and and Cooper was just so endearing as

13:52

a character. Do you think there's always gonna be

13:54

a part of you that's like I do you

13:56

ever Fallen said Special Agent Dale Cooper. Rollins

13:58

are just like. In real life that he

14:00

come out new. Every morning having sneak when I

14:03

have an accent and as though they were the

14:05

a haunting. this I think of Dale Cooper. Said.

14:08

Josh you has done some really scary

14:10

were busy reporting from really scary. Dangerous

14:12

places I takes a lot of courage to

14:14

be able to go into like a war

14:16

zone and report from there. I mean I

14:19

know you've reported some parts of Mexico they're

14:21

like really dangerous can you tell the story

14:23

about like when in your career field reporting.

14:25

Was a scary time ever? Was your like I might

14:27

not make it out here. Well I did

14:29

and I actually like may be the entry

14:32

point for me was i rak and and

14:34

in the is the second goal for. I

14:36

was a young reporter at the time and

14:38

I really didn't know much. I thought I

14:40

had a particular angle on it that nobody

14:42

else had which was I was going to

14:45

be covering the geeks of the war, the

14:47

signal brigade, the people whom wired the battlefield

14:49

and that seems significant me because this was

14:51

the first war of the internet era. Yeah

14:53

and so what is? How does the Internet

14:56

change the way wars are fought and and

14:58

I showed. Up in Kuwait City, I was

15:00

in Central Command first and in Cutter and

15:02

then I went to Forward Command and Coates

15:04

and all the traditional The New York Times

15:06

the was impose Fortune, Forbes, all the traditional

15:09

publications like what are you doing here my

15:11

you covering this but I was very curious

15:13

about it and I guess to me it's

15:15

not so much an issue of of bravery

15:17

at all, it's more of curiosity. I wanted

15:19

to know the answer in. the only way

15:21

to get the answer was to go out

15:23

there and they hadn't program at the time.

15:26

Called the Embed program where the Pentagon would

15:28

train you. But I miss that they were

15:30

full and I was too late to the

15:32

over to apply. And so I was what

15:34

the military called a unilateral which man I

15:36

was. I was just out there in the

15:38

desert hitchhiking on my own, well and there

15:40

was a certain point when I got I

15:42

was outside of For Loser at the start

15:45

of the war hitchhiking and I started hearing

15:47

gunfire and I realize oh this is probably

15:49

not a great situation. I didn't have a

15:51

had you been at war zone before there's

15:53

no. I. Didn't have a flak jacket. I

15:55

didn't have a helmet. I have a thing I

15:57

had I had made my own. I went to

15:59

Kinko. And laminated my own press

16:01

badge before I left. I had managed to

16:04

trust you to go to Burnish. I left.

16:08

And taught You got me through, talked me

16:10

into this. That was. That was the beginning.

16:12

That's A. That's how I learned. I learned

16:14

by a as I got a gas mask.

16:16

I did have a gas mask because your

16:18

memory was at that time there was subtle

16:20

or thought that Saddam was going to gas

16:22

Us troops. So yeah, so that that was.

16:24

That was kind of my introduction to this

16:26

kind of reporting and I will say that

16:28

I ended up getting paired up. With a

16:30

great very experienced war photographer named

16:33

at Cassie and add really I

16:35

learned a lot from an have

16:37

you. Covered other a war

16:40

zone since. Yeah, I was in

16:42

Libya in Benghazi right before the

16:44

attack on the Us Consulate. I

16:46

left dead just just before Ambassador

16:48

Stevens was killed. And and is never a

16:50

dearth of war zone so. I'm a a

16:52

little older now and so I and

16:54

I have kids and that's chains the

16:56

calculus. So I try to go to

16:58

places like Barnum Town with Kyle instead.

17:03

Of hours ago. Maybe I target you aren't. Speaking with

17:05

we have before we started like right that something

17:07

has joined you said that you've been talking about

17:09

the small town crimes or something before rejoining and

17:11

actually my third question for both of you as

17:13

had a supremely to your life or you both

17:15

like those people who like. To relax they watching

17:18

to print documentaries you fall into Premium the

17:20

zebra reading the mystery that. What is about

17:22

to crime that you like if you like it to do the

17:24

to crime talk south of the got asset lesson. I

17:27

don't know. I mean I don't spend

17:29

a lot of time with True Crime now,

17:31

but I did grew up reading The

17:33

Hardy Boys are it every single booked

17:35

added. Nancy Drew is Nancy with Color

17:37

and the Three Investigators is also a

17:39

series that I really enjoyed and and

17:41

then I've. Played. A number

17:43

of you know you, lawyers, investigators,

17:45

and scooper Of course it's all

17:47

around. I guess I just I

17:49

don't relax while watching and listening

17:51

to true crime. I think I

17:53

get too emotionally engaged, involved, in

17:55

frustrated and angry and so I.

17:57

I don't relax that way as.

18:00

It's interesting, it's interesting. and if you you

18:02

start going into the psychology of the individual

18:04

which I think is probably the biggest appeal

18:06

to everyone right you want to know what

18:08

they were thinking, why they did this, what

18:10

caused it and and those are the questions

18:12

I as an actor I you have to

18:14

ask going into a character of without judgment

18:16

you just go in and say okay we

18:18

were to come from. You consider one in

18:20

town into Grandpa? Just. How I think

18:23

so. Yeah yeah, I mean there's no

18:25

bloody murders and you know where it

18:27

be. Pretty much no kind of not

18:30

a who done it. I think the

18:32

question still remains. what was deal var

18:34

numbers level of involvement in home visit

18:37

as he suggests or as he insists

18:39

that he was. You know, the kingpin

18:41

organizes whole thing with although Escobar or

18:44

was he just telling a tall tale

18:46

of a huge ass? And like Kyle

18:48

I get very caught up and emotionally

18:50

torn apart by. Crime. Stories I

18:53

do listen, I do watch them

18:55

but it's not relaxing for of.

18:58

I shall I say deeply and as i

19:01

use or to relaxing for me any crime

19:03

and murder and in our this investigations that's

19:05

nice actual real saab but the truth as

19:07

when the kids but of that I'm like

19:09

and you to from thought cast a like

19:11

wind down on wife were then so I

19:14

feel embarrassed saying that I do realize that

19:16

the time but I do I think it's

19:18

just a story. Telling and the people in the

19:20

characters. And transit. That's why would somebody do what?

19:22

They did here. I'm yeah yeah

19:24

circle and I like the style

19:26

of Barnum Town is nobody dies

19:28

night, there is a funeral but

19:30

by we as far as we

19:32

know it was not related to

19:34

Pablo Escobar as it's just a

19:36

funeral or three know and there's

19:38

something to I think there's a

19:40

whole world of crime that overlooked

19:42

which is like small crime like

19:44

I love stories of criminals who

19:46

perhaps aren't the smartest criminals around

19:48

and I got there they must

19:50

or I love about these. Guys who

19:53

are trying to rob and a T M and they

19:55

did it by hooking on the winds of their

19:57

truck to the face plate of the a ten minute

19:59

backing up. The problem was it ripped off

20:01

the front of the truck instead. And

20:03

then they got freaked out. They drove

20:05

away leaving their license plate on the

20:07

front bumper. Their car the A T

20:09

M. I mean Thousand Seven. Amazing and

20:11

beautiful. So I there's a lot of

20:14

stories like that that I'd I feel

20:16

require some reporting. Yes, And that sort it

20:18

that find we recently covered make millions. We had dad

20:20

Katey Sagal and her husband on and we've covered with

20:22

and i that with millions of lot of uncut it's

20:24

very capery and like nobody died. You can

20:26

argue whether or not we should try over Mcdonalds.

20:28

Being a of victim or not that. This,

20:31

for the most part it was. It was.

20:33

yeah, nothing. nothing too dark. Amateur supply

20:35

is at at your answers because of the case.

20:37

You guys actually did shoes because it's a very

20:39

dark case cells that has he chose and until

20:42

it's lion of them much as. Up

20:44

on this however you want to answer

20:46

well it's the case of Michelle Carter.

20:48

I guess I chose it because there

20:50

is a question at the heart of

20:52

it of of really profound question of

20:54

culpability. So I described the case. Some.

20:57

of our this is probably do know that this case the

20:59

just a mixer all of us on the same. Page.

21:01

Let's do the crash course.

21:05

The stance as as case or simple straightforward

21:07

and yet it might be the hardest case

21:09

I've ever had to summarize for a crash

21:11

course. Not because there's any dispute as to

21:14

what happened, but it's because it's so hard

21:16

to wrap your head around why it happens.

21:18

I thought about this case the way a

21:20

parent would given the fact that both the

21:22

victim and perpetrator were children. Really any thought

21:24

about it as someone who was bullied as

21:27

a kid and as someone whose kids are

21:29

three of them have experienced. Some level

21:31

of bullying. I remember when the

21:33

story first broke. The disbelief and

21:35

rage and heartbreak. We all self

21:38

was palpable. It. All began in Two

21:40

Thousand Twelve when sixteen year old Conrad Roy

21:42

was visiting relatives in Florida, and by chance

21:44

he met sixteen year old Michelle Carter was

21:46

also visiting family there. It was an odd

21:49

coincidence for both of them to meet in

21:51

Florida because both of the teens were actors

21:53

from Massachusetts and it turned out the only

21:55

lived thirty five miles apart. The To struck

21:57

up a friendship quickly, sending. Each other so.

22:00

Great of text messages a week and

22:02

speaking over the phone incessantly. The

22:04

friendship naturally turned into a romantic

22:06

relationship Silver to were. Only able to

22:08

see each other a handful of times

22:10

over the next couple of years. Early

22:13

on, Michelle learned that Conrad struggled with

22:15

suicidal. Ideation court records would later so that

22:17

he had experienced domestic violence of the hands

22:19

of a father. And emotional and verbal abuse

22:21

by his. Grandfather and that same year

22:23

and two thousand twelve Conrad parents also

22:26

divorced would seem to exacerbate has depression

22:28

and thoughts of ending his life. The

22:30

first time Conrad attempt to take his

22:33

life was in October two thousand and

22:35

Twelve by overdosing on medication. Luckily the

22:37

attempt failed and when Michelle learned of

22:39

it seems cursed him to get professional

22:42

help and was supportive and loving. over

22:44

the next two years of the relationship

22:46

that dynamic remained. Conrad did concede to

22:49

experience bouts of depression and frequently brought

22:51

up suicide. Michelle and she discouraged him

22:53

doing her best. To keep him

22:55

here. But then something changed drastically

22:58

in July. Two thousand and fourteen.

23:00

On the surface, Conrad seem to be

23:02

doing sign. A few months earlier he

23:04

had earned his Captains license and seemed

23:06

excited about this accomplishment and that he

23:08

had landed a job as a Captain

23:10

Kidd just graduated from high school that

23:12

summer with a three point nine Gps

23:14

all while excelling in athletics to play

23:16

baseball, ran track, and was part of

23:18

crew. He had just been accepted to

23:20

Stitch Berg State University and it seemed

23:22

like he was actually making plans. You

23:24

know, plans to live, but behind the

23:26

scenes he was still experiencing. Depression and

23:28

anxiety and he brought up suicide Repeatedly

23:30

to Michelle and one text exchange he

23:32

wrote to her we should be like

23:35

romeo and Juliet at the end I'd

23:37

like to be or juliet Michelle replied,

23:39

you know what happens in the end,

23:41

right? Conrad wrote back. Oh no, we're

23:43

not die cells as. But Then, into

23:45

lives two thousand and fourteen. Michelle, who

23:47

was once so encouraging of him having

23:50

a seizure ahead of him suddenly turns.

23:52

Instead of discouraging him from his dark

23:54

thoughts of ending his life, she began

23:56

encouraging him to just. Do it

23:58

already in early July. Over the course

24:00

of six days Conrad and Michelle taxed at

24:03

each other about Conrad suicidal thoughts and they

24:05

plotted different ways to commit the at these

24:07

tax which were released to the public in

24:09

two thousand seventeen showed Conrad hesitance. Repeatedly he

24:11

brought up the impact that his suicide would

24:14

have on his parents and how it would

24:16

hurt his family and in response to solve

24:18

wrote i think your parents know you know

24:20

really bad place I'm not saying they want

24:22

you to do it, but I honestly feel

24:25

like they can accept that they know there's

24:27

nothing they can do the right helping everyone's

24:29

try. But. There is a point the comes when

24:31

there isn't anything. Anyone can do to save you.

24:33

Are you? Fighting

24:40

on your computer and she didn't say anything. I

24:42

think she notes on your mind and she's prepared

24:44

for it. Everyone will be sad for a while

24:46

but they will get over it and is on

24:48

the wealthy and depression. I won't let the habit.

24:50

They know how sad you are and they know

24:53

that you're doing this to be happy and I

24:55

think they'll understand and accept it. They will always

24:57

carry you in their hearts. They will move on

24:59

for you because they know that's what you would

25:01

have wanted. They know you wouldn't want them to

25:04

be sad and depressed to be angry and you

25:06

know you want them to live their. Lives

25:08

and be happy so they will for

25:10

you. To

25:12

stop thinking about the just do

25:14

it Because overturning always kills over

25:17

thinking. Conrad responded.

25:19

Yeah it does. I've been thinking about it

25:22

for too long and emotional side. Always.

25:24

Smile and yell Just. To

25:27

do it is interesting indeed. There is no

25:29

way sale. Ever.

25:33

And. Then in another. Exchange. Michelle take

25:35

said well. I guess that I'm

25:37

just frustrated. Just. Don't

25:41

last night. I know you really wanted to

25:43

do it and I'm not mad. Well,

25:45

I mean kind of just because you always say

25:47

you're gonna do it, but you don't the last

25:49

I I knew really wanted to, and I'm not.

25:52

In. The week prior to Conrad to death,

25:54

Michelle taxes him over a thousand times,

25:56

mostly focused on pressuring him to take

25:59

his life to. The already And stop

26:01

stalling. The. Night before, Conrad finally

26:03

gave in to the pressure. Their

26:05

exchange went like this: Michelle. Are.

26:07

You gonna do it now. Conrad. I.

26:10

Just don't know how to leave them, You know? The.

26:13

Say. You're gonna go to the store or something. Conrad.

26:16

Like. I want them to know that I love them.

26:19

Mission. They. Know that's the

26:21

one thing they definitely know. You're. Over

26:23

thinking. Conrad. Did finally leave

26:25

his home. And drove to the parking lot of the

26:28

local Kmart. He had with him

26:30

a generator to create carbon monoxide fumes, a

26:32

plan that Michelle suggested to him. At

26:34

one point when the fumes begun to sell his

26:37

truck, Conrad got out. But then

26:39

Michelle texted him one more time. She

26:41

instructed. Conrad to get back in the

26:43

truck after he tried to stop his

26:45

suicide attempt and Conrad listen to his

26:47

girlfriend. He got back in his truck,

26:50

turned on a generator and never got

26:52

back out. He was found by

26:54

the police after his mother reported him

26:56

missing and they also found his own

26:58

full of text messages from Michelle. After

27:00

seven months of investigating Conrad stat Michelle

27:02

was arrested and. Charged with involuntary

27:05

manslaughter. In February of two thousand

27:07

and fifteen, she was seventeen at the time

27:09

and charged as a youthful offender instead of

27:12

a juvenile, which meant she could be sentence

27:14

as an adult for trial. however didn't again

27:16

for three years and after a two week

27:18

bench trial, she was found guilty of the

27:21

charges brought. While Michelle actually faced up to

27:23

twenty years in prison, she was only sentenced

27:25

to fifteen. Months and five years

27:27

of probation. She wasn't in prison

27:29

until she exhausted. Her pills and she

27:32

started her sentence in February two thousand

27:34

and nineteen. She. Apply for parole and it

27:36

was denied, but she was still released three.

27:38

Months early for good behavior in total

27:40

shock. Harder spent less than a year

27:43

in prison and was released in

27:45

January. Twenty Twenty. So as I

27:47

said, at a top there's no disputing the sacks

27:49

of this awful. Tragic Case. The question

27:51

that's raised the mystery to be

27:53

solved here is whether or not

27:55

Conrad Roy would still be alive

27:58

today. But for Michelle Carter. Let's

28:00

talk about it. Rather

28:04

yeah I know you are very beautiful but

28:07

the find it weird that you're also known

28:09

for smuggling. so good. You know what? I

28:11

work hard as hell and back. But it

28:13

all starts with a strong foundation. You can

28:15

cover up any guy that says with any

28:18

kind of her few unless your body Those

28:20

Zelda you are absolutely right and satisfy. I

28:22

have come to love Gloomy products because you

28:24

hit the nail on the head. You can't

28:26

cover up a stink. Listen, your feet, your

28:29

boot vols the private. All those places in

28:31

our bodies to have a little bit of

28:33

funky. That's why they created. Leumi full body

28:35

odor first thought is gonna give you seventy

28:38

two hour control and what I love about

28:40

it is also that it is pair of

28:42

and free. It is Ph balance for safe

28:44

youth you know all the way below the

28:47

belt and a of amazing said would you

28:49

know my favorite as toasted coconut So many

28:51

starter pack is perfect for new customers. It

28:53

comes with a solid six yoder and cream

28:55

cheese deodorant to free products. York sweet like

28:58

the many body wash I'm always in a

29:00

target of brothels to go to Red, White

29:02

and free shipping. As a subtle officer. Listeners

29:04

new customers get fifteen percent of all,

29:07

move on with our exclusive code and

29:09

if you combine to fifteen percent off

29:11

with already discounted sort of fact that

29:13

he goes over forty percent off their

29:15

Soderbergh says help solve the case for

29:17

fifteen percent off your first purchase actually

29:20

Me: Deodorants Awesome. That's code. Solve the

29:22

case at L U N E D

29:24

O B. O r eight antes

29:26

del medio don't.com. So.

29:35

The question is if I were to

29:37

tell you Rubbia. Go. Jump Off a

29:39

bridge. I just said it. and now you do

29:41

it. I go to jail. Like where do you

29:43

draw the line? That's what I don't That's what.

29:45

That's what I can't wrap my mind around. So

29:47

I mean it sounds like just from the jump.

29:49

Your. Reaction to this is a you don't believe that

29:52

she has been charged with anything. Ah,

29:54

I'm not sure. I feel like

29:56

there's doubt there was no jury

29:58

trial. It was his. The wave jury

30:00

trial and there was one judge who made the

30:02

decision. She ended up appealing at all the way

30:04

to the supreme court and supreme court decided not

30:06

to hear it. She pleaded. Not guilty. She said

30:08

I am not guilty of involuntary manslaughter. She kills

30:11

a bench trial which is just having one judge

30:13

was at that with an interesting choice because if

30:15

I was a defense counsel I be like go

30:17

with the jury and we can find one that

30:19

on the leave you like eating. Part of the

30:21

problem might have been mine. I remember when this

30:23

happened to happen to doesn't fourteen. She's arrested early

30:25

to as and sixteen me. She was very. Quickly

30:27

vilified the media. it everybody here.

30:30

I mean the idea that this young girl who

30:32

is texting her voice and to incur Emily I

30:34

did that. anybody would do that that a bully

30:36

would do that. But this is accident, never relationship.

30:38

The many who apparently loves you would encourage you

30:40

over and over again. Everybody hated her, so I

30:42

wonder if that's why they chose to bench trial.

30:44

I'm a widower skit on a jury that. Hates

30:46

or that makes sense to me a marriage

30:48

as that would be the reason I would

30:50

think she did it. Yeah I'm recognizing the

30:52

she was a you said vilified in the

30:54

media known losing streak of no compassion from

30:56

anywhere. But you never know you hear the

30:58

story and I'm I'm I'm Josh I just

31:00

you don't know. My initial reaction is like

31:02

oh my god yes guilty. This is terrible

31:04

Israel or of a crime But but then

31:06

the other side is the act. Decide to

31:08

be quite honest. you users in a wait

31:10

a minute can. Why don't we go and

31:12

see if we can walk a little bit

31:14

of that journey? Get a. Sense of maybe

31:16

you who she was, where she was,

31:18

what was happening, what what really was

31:20

a relationship and try to put yourself

31:22

on. I think as an audience I

31:24

mean I'd That's what we try to

31:26

do right. We try to put ourselves

31:29

in the situation and go okay. Given

31:31

everything I can understand, can I at

31:33

least understand why this happened and I

31:35

came away with the same conclusion? I

31:37

just I? I don't know and to

31:39

me it seems I have joined. As

31:41

an actor You'd have to make a

31:43

choice but you know just so you

31:45

are you saying. It brings up a

31:47

bunch of different scenarios that are all

31:49

morally thorny Than the question is, where

31:51

said the law come down to? Let's

31:53

say you're walking down the street and

31:55

you see somebody who's having a heart

31:57

attack or the has fallen down and.

32:00

Keep walking That is morally

32:02

not great. You should help.

32:04

But. Should you go to jail, right?

32:06

And so I am not saying that's

32:09

the same as the Michelle Carter case,

32:11

but it's It's related in a way.

32:13

She didn't cause Conrad to want to

32:15

kill himself that was pre existing. That

32:18

saw a little bit about like what were what

32:20

the defense arguments were in this case descend said

32:22

number one. Conrad had been dealing with suicidal ideation

32:24

for a number of years and sat a

32:26

couple of years prior. In October two thousand Twelve

32:29

get attempted to take his own life after

32:31

his parents got divorced. There was also a we

32:33

had a history of depression and anxiety he

32:35

had had some in hospital treatment. There was

32:37

also apparently an incidence of domestic violence where the

32:39

police came and his father and laid his

32:41

hands are announcing you know that was one incident

32:43

but I'm guessing that was not a one

32:46

off and guessing he has x had experienced. Said

32:48

Db at the hands of his father. In

32:50

other times he was verbally mostly these by

32:52

his grandfather. You know that sense? It's

32:54

like this is not a but for Michelle

32:56

Carter. He. Would be allies like

32:58

he already. The was like on like

33:01

struggled to stay like in this world and

33:03

and for years Michelle was like helping him.

33:05

Encouraging signal. there's a reason for you to

33:07

be here And then there's also the fact

33:09

that Muscles herself was awful struggling like a

33:11

Bentley both on Read and her were on

33:13

select saw which is a drug and and

33:15

the judges are not allow. By the way,

33:17

the experts i'm on flights that com and

33:19

testify to talk about the kinds of side

33:22

effects. but one of the side effects that's

33:24

written on the box is that it can

33:26

increase was subtle thinking and behavior. and those

33:28

under age twenty four and. She. Had just begun

33:30

taking it that year to and fourteen and

33:32

that might have been tied to her sons

33:34

which you know what you saw she says

33:36

in the earlier you said I think there's

33:38

some doubts and we have a doubt units

33:40

of well if the down in terms of

33:42

like the sad fact. Patterns pretty clear. The

33:44

fact are all clear. yeah, world work.

33:47

Everybody I think with it was very

33:49

interesting I guess. Darkly interesting about this

33:51

case is it Everybody agrees what happened.

33:53

There's no doubt about what happened. Where

33:55

there's doubt is about in the moral

33:57

gray area, it's about how you and.

34:00

Harper do like how you think of it

34:02

and where you draw the line. What? Let me

34:04

ask you this pile and will play Devil's Advocate here

34:06

and failed process in here. We. Know she

34:08

sent him around thousand messages in the week

34:10

before he died. almost all of them encouraging

34:12

to just go go through that. And.

34:14

In many of those, Texas. Changes. She's.

34:17

Showing hesitancy and he's like yeah but my family

34:19

and I don't i don't really eaten announces right

34:21

time it's to that know every sleep get out

34:24

of the house the to at and at the

34:26

very end when he sat in his truck and

34:28

turned on this generator to break the carbon monoxide

34:30

that would eventually till I'm that's out of the

34:32

truck and she texans as get back and try

34:35

one about that moments. Know enough for me

34:37

was that was a very challenging mean

34:39

how can you not my fault with

34:41

that? I go back to more questions

34:43

than anything else and I'm going Okay

34:45

so let's and I don't know the

34:47

transcripts of them for much like that

34:49

but I feel like if she's been

34:51

convincing trying to convince him to live

34:53

and he's been you know talking about

34:55

these suicide at some point the she

34:57

suddenly turn say you know what I

34:59

think he would actually be happier if

35:01

he went through with this. I think

35:04

I'm actually doing him some kind of.

35:06

Are helping him I'm I'm helping in some

35:08

ways than I think she she expressed. She

35:10

expressed that do I say that yeah and

35:12

I think she said that and that is

35:14

a I'm again this I'm playing the role

35:17

and thinking okay that's an action that she's

35:19

taking You know is not. I have this

35:21

when I want to kill disperse and because

35:23

I'm you know I'm I'm psychotic. Whenever it's

35:26

on my see helping him and I believe

35:28

I'm helping him, then I'm like as you've

35:30

made that transition in your brain then she

35:32

feels like it's just it's me when I

35:34

justified but she doing something. That's gonna

35:37

be a positive. To. Him

35:39

Ultimately, even though the result is horrific.

35:41

Having I still about the prosecution's

35:43

argument that the cell who was

35:45

encouraging him. Because. She.

35:48

Knew she was just the getting all this

35:50

attention since that these was a really lonely

35:52

girl the didn't have friends she was desperately

35:54

to a with subtract sexy other girls a

35:56

hangout nobody pay attention to her. This would

35:58

make a really important it. Make her really

36:00

valuable because real have an immediate aftermath of

36:03

his his does she set up a Facebook

36:05

page. She starts positioning herself as a suicide

36:07

prevention advocates. She sets up this this game

36:09

to benefit him. A Hummer for is what

36:12

homers or home runs as I homers for

36:14

upon ads and at no point does he

36:16

seem like she's as ships that of a

36:18

dad. She's actually like she's texted friends and

36:21

this time and she's like oh my gosh,

36:23

I'm famous now and same establishes. She

36:25

has a purpose right? I mean I think she

36:27

feels like I'm personally I've I've helped this young

36:29

guy. Now I can. I can help others you

36:31

know I I I feel like I have which

36:33

is delusional. Seating as an orb thinking basically,

36:36

I do now that she's exit evil like an

36:38

evil bully sausage think it hires what do you

36:40

think? Either to me it's it's sights.

36:42

You go back to that thing we

36:44

all said, is it as kids? Sticks

36:46

and stones may break my bones. but

36:49

words will never hurt me. These are

36:51

all words. it's and we have the

36:53

benefit of being of the see, the

36:55

word said via text and there's legal

36:57

limits to that. We know the Supreme

36:59

Court as decide is you can't shout

37:01

fire in a crowded theatre. The there's

37:03

a limit to free speech. But is

37:05

this the equivalent of shouting fire in

37:07

a crowded theatre? I. Feel like it's almost

37:09

worse than you think? it's almost yet. Somebody

37:11

was deeply vulnerable and has a history of

37:14

and I wanted to take their lives. Do

37:16

you get any dispensation for being a kid? being

37:18

under the age of eighteen? Right Was it

37:20

she was sort the youthful sunder am not

37:22

as you have an on and that would

37:24

have allowed her to be sentence as an

37:26

adult and I am of an advocate for

37:28

the conservation so her to serve less than

37:30

a year. I think that's okay adding that

37:32

sign of things excessive. I don't think if

37:34

she had so many three I might still

37:37

be okay with that money As you this

37:39

I see this very much as a case

37:41

of it All rings bullying to me and

37:43

I'm a parent. Have three kids all who

37:45

have experienced bullying in different ways. I was

37:47

bullied as a kid and bullying I thought

37:49

it was kind of different. When I was

37:51

younger because you know bull in every school

37:53

yet believe it happened. But. He did

37:55

not see. I don't think with com or less was

37:57

just not reported to see a lot of young people

37:59

commit. The side as a result of bullying

38:01

What I feel like much more common in

38:03

the last twenty twenty five years. So the

38:05

first asked, have either of you experience bullying

38:08

by being bullied or it is being bullied.

38:10

G I was bullied as a kid when I was in

38:12

grade school. Not. Excessively at the time

38:14

I felt like this was something that can't

38:17

really bring it to your parents in a

38:19

weird way you like. I have to figure

38:21

this out. Have you guys experience either

38:23

of you? I mean judges have kids now

38:25

Like when you is the your kids being

38:27

bullied because the rage that that brings up

38:29

in me as a parent I'm like I'm

38:31

that pick up. That sounds a. Bit. Of

38:36

yeah it's it's hard and bullying is

38:38

terrible and absolutely not okay. Are there

38:40

a miata know Robbie if you know

38:43

I their cases where somebody has verbal

38:45

he bullied somebody and gone to jail

38:47

for it just for the sheer act

38:49

of saying the words for my research

38:51

on there have. Been panel consequences to

38:54

building when it involves cyber bullying which is

38:56

this word slut. They can also include things

38:58

like you know, having pictures of somebody that's

39:00

humiliating, a video you know are way is

39:02

accumulating them or actual physically attacking amp. But

39:04

you know there's a a study done by

39:06

the Journal of the American Medical Association that

39:09

says the lead kids aged nine to twenty

39:11

one or twice as likely to have suicidal

39:13

thoughts are there is a real strong it

39:15

seems like connection between being bullied our that

39:17

whatever building looks like an suicide id a

39:19

sense of course like as in a lot

39:22

of his expense. Billing and they don't get

39:24

her were conrad got to. But there aren't

39:26

any. We hear stories like this all the

39:28

time where you know I am percent are

39:30

you know somebody has his nor died subvert

39:32

and or as Lgbtq I order some vulnerability

39:34

that makes me even more politically vulnerable to

39:36

the bullying and they end up. It's not

39:38

that are able to either. they're not resilient

39:40

enough to handle. I don't know that I

39:42

view Michelle is a bully. The. Way

39:45

I was there with the way I

39:47

would view a bully as somebody who

39:49

wants to make you feel bad, who

39:51

doesn't like you, who wants to make

39:53

you feel less than and in her

39:56

case to what Kyle was saying earlier

39:58

I think see thought that she was

40:00

helping him and I think she did

40:02

have like good feelings for him. They

40:04

typically a bully won't be in a

40:07

longstanding to your. Semi. Romantic

40:09

relationship. With. Somebody typically a

40:11

there are plenty of bad relationships.

40:13

They talked about it directly, how

40:15

they felt like romeo and Juliet

40:17

that there was this tragic love

40:19

story aspect to it. Yeah, And at

40:21

the time this athletic Conrad was like wow, maybe will end

40:23

up like them and she said no, we're not gonna die

40:25

as it is like the for her little. Jekyll Hyde

40:28

Sledge use another possibility and I'm going

40:30

at once again. Played Prosecutors Advocates. And.

40:32

I don't like prosecutors, but here I am doing it anyway.

40:35

And then is as in two thousand

40:37

Fourteen, you know? How don't have

40:39

just graduate high school with. Her like a

40:41

three point nine Gps he had arm. Is

40:43

just months prior to this. got his

40:45

license as a captain. He made his

40:47

voice like these are videos and stuff

40:50

himself is really excited about like. A

40:53

feeling proud of his accomplishment the he's like an

40:55

eighteen I'm of the a captain of a boat

40:57

that's a big deal. he had gotten accepted to

40:59

university like all these things were happening that seems

41:01

like not as the things that like he's playing

41:03

for future and that caesar was gonna happen very.

41:06

Soon and right after the summer. rights. I.

41:08

Actually wonder if Michelle was like i can't let

41:10

him out that future as he might get away

41:12

from me if she's a desperately lonely girl and

41:14

she's ever fly a friend who now and then

41:16

relationship was almost all texting Anyways, they. Rarely sides

41:18

other dismay a handful times in the

41:20

two years they were together. And now

41:23

she's gonna go away to call at the

41:25

university and actually maybe have a life you

41:27

might only thing do with me i wonder

41:29

that has of the zoo him. Even

41:31

if it does, how does that

41:34

affect her liability to go to

41:36

jail? While also this a lot of

41:38

criminal charges come under statutes like you know

41:40

the has be criminal intent right? Like premeditation

41:42

requires intense. I'm actually surprised showing that involuntary

41:44

manslaughter because even days as you know I'm

41:46

not, they were testing you waters with his

41:49

conviction. I think it's one of a kind

41:51

Set in the days leading up to this

41:53

she had already started selling. Other as you

41:55

start taxing friends and saying my boyfriends disappeared

41:57

i don't always gone she's like i gotta

41:59

make this. Then there was some like she

42:01

was planning for the As An. When she

42:03

said boyfriends you talking about Conrad a Gap is

42:06

right, That yeah was. Only my in her life

42:08

and such as anticipating it and then she is

42:10

orchestrating it to make sure that happens. I think

42:12

as I am a parents of Conrad I can't

42:15

imagine forgiveness for her and I would. I would

42:17

feel like she's very top of the like the

42:19

is it wasn't for it's her that my son

42:21

my still be alive under the has all the

42:24

arguments and you're making. I always think about what

42:26

are the unintended consequences of something like this. In

42:28

a legal standpoint. Right at the beginning. where

42:30

do you draw the line? If I

42:32

say something off handed to. You.

42:35

And you go do something. Am I now

42:37

at fault? I think it's the i mean

42:39

it's to be amount of time was spent

42:42

coercing him and talking him into this. You

42:44

know that was a thing and then as

42:46

it is it, one week of conversation is

42:48

it was six months. It's a very slippery

42:50

slope. I don't know where you draw the

42:53

line. With us how do you feel about that moment

42:55

die a style that when he went conrad the out

42:57

of his truck and she said if i can. See

42:59

when she turned to get back in the car to.

43:01

Me that feel that bullying Telling him you gotta go

43:03

through that you gotta keep doing it. Even know

43:05

what I mean I I watched the

43:07

documentary and the girl from Plainville as

43:09

well and again I think from her

43:11

perspective see thought she was helping him

43:13

seafood he wanted to do this and

43:15

she was supporting him him in the

43:17

thing that he wanted to do not

43:19

to say that that's right at all

43:21

but the just to understand her motivation

43:24

I mean what do you think authorities

43:26

have him but what do you think

43:28

is what is this is like a

43:30

game of some kind. So and both

43:32

people are participating willingly in the dynamics

43:34

you know he. may or may not

43:36

be to what degree ready to do

43:38

this isn't these he's is to some

43:40

degree years okay because he keep talking

43:42

about us but at no time did

43:44

he say you know what okay have

43:46

changed my mind i'm good when he

43:48

does that were he to say that

43:50

to see lose the relationship with her

43:53

how important is the relationship what is

43:55

it like oh and he continues to

43:57

sort of nurse this dynamic along and

43:59

she's like If he suddenly decides, you

44:01

know what, I'm refocused and I'm going in

44:03

this direction, she loses him. I

44:06

mean, how entangled is that?

44:08

It feels like it's really

44:10

woven tightly. I actually wondered when I

44:12

first started looking at this, I thought, you know, it's

44:14

like when a kid says, dad, I'm running away from

44:16

home and parents are like, yeah, go ahead and go, just do

44:18

it. Go run away. Let's make this

44:20

happen. You know what, I thought maybe that was Michelle's

44:23

like boy, where she's like, reverse psychology.

44:25

Right. For two years, I've been

44:27

telling you, no, you get it. And now I'm like,

44:29

you know what, just go for it. Just do it.

44:31

But when I learned that she sent him instructions on

44:33

like how to do this and like, you know, it

44:36

was so much more specific. And in the very moment

44:38

when she knew this was it, this was do or

44:40

die, like that could not have been her mode.

44:42

There was no reverse psychology going on. That was

44:44

direction. Like, you got to go through with this.

44:46

You can see like a corollary if you're aiding

44:49

and abetting somebody who's going to go blow

44:51

up the building and you give them, okay, here's

44:53

the things you should buy. Here's the instructions on

44:55

how to make the bomb. You go

44:57

to jail for that, right? You do. And

45:00

the thing is like, you know, I graduated law school around

45:02

the time, you know, the Patriot Act came into being

45:05

and material support laws.

45:08

You know how many people we locked up over material support laws

45:10

from material? What was material support? It

45:12

means I sent somebody an email about how to

45:14

like, you know, ship paintballs out of this country.

45:17

And now I have provided material support for terrorism. We have locked

45:19

up people for that. I think that's what

45:21

this is. I think this is Aaron

45:24

providing material support. And I think about,

45:26

you know, there are entire movements across the world to

45:28

support people who do want to take their lives. Like,

45:30

okay, if that's what he wanted to do. I think

45:32

the real question for me was, did he really want

45:34

to do it at the end? And

45:36

if he had gotten out of that truck and she hadn't told him get back

45:38

in, would he still be around? Going

45:40

deeper into that, Rabia, if there's

45:42

an organization... Assisted suicide. ...assisted suicide,

45:44

but I feel more comfortable,

45:46

not to say comfortable, but more comfortable with

45:49

it. If somebody has a cancer

45:51

diagnosis and they have bad quality

45:53

of life, I get it. But if somebody is

45:55

18 years old, that's a tough one. Let alone

45:57

below 18. things

46:00

he's got going for him as well. I think you know

46:02

that all that. But if he says he wants to do

46:04

it, if he says he's been wanting to do it for

46:06

two years and I mean

46:08

this is dark but if a

46:11

cancer diagnosis or a really bad mental

46:13

health state, right, the person who's in

46:15

a really dark place they feel that

46:19

way. Like there's nothing ahead.

46:21

It feels terminal. I

46:23

think and I had a friend who committed

46:25

suicide and I think he was not going

46:27

to be dissuaded off of it

46:30

and people knew something was going on and

46:32

people like really intervened as the best they

46:34

could because he was not easy to find.

46:37

He kind of started erratic behavior and

46:39

you know you look from the outside.

46:41

You know if we have all I

46:43

mean all of us but you've had

46:45

you know someone has done this and

46:48

you're like I didn't know idea. It's

46:50

hidden so well. There was a comment

46:52

in the chat about what

46:54

responsibility do the parents bear? Were

46:56

they aware and if they were

46:59

aware could they have

47:01

done? Aware of what Michelle was saying to them?

47:03

No, no. I mean aware of

47:05

Conrad's state of mind. I think they

47:07

certainly were. And so what

47:09

could they have done to a

47:11

greater extent therapy, medication? In

47:14

the weeks leading up to his eventually taking

47:16

his life he had been going in for

47:18

therapy or counseling. There was something it seemed

47:21

like his parents had numerous times put him

47:23

into some kind of program. They had him

47:25

on medication. So it wasn't something they were

47:27

completely ignoring but he also was 18 which

47:29

means there's only so much control

47:32

they can have over his behavior. I don't

47:34

know if the consequences were unintended. By the

47:36

way under the statute in Massachusetts for involuntary

47:38

manslaughter and harm that was caused was supposed

47:40

to be unintended consequences. I don't think it

47:42

was unintended. I think it was very intentional

47:44

or consequences here but maybe that was the closest

47:46

thing they could squeeze because they probably have nothing

47:48

on the books that would have fit. The ACLU

47:50

argued in this case by the way in saying

47:52

that this is First Amendment protected speech but what

47:54

if you said okay the punishment should be for

47:56

the behavior? Which behavior? For the

47:58

bullying. Her behavior. for bullying, for

48:01

cyber-stalking, for humiliate. That

48:03

should be punished, not the consequences of it.

48:05

Whether or not, but then if he actually

48:07

hadn't taken his life, do you have a

48:09

case against her? No. I

48:12

guess I personally am more comfortable if you're focusing

48:14

on the behavior, not the consequence, because

48:17

bullying is rampant now,

48:20

online more so than

48:22

even in person. How do you

48:24

combat that? It's one thing you can

48:26

say, this is not good, this is not good as

48:28

much as you want, but ultimately there has to be

48:30

some consequence. Is it suspension from school? To

48:33

rise the level of going to jail, it's

48:35

got to be pretty serious. Are

48:38

you uncomfortable with the conviction or the sentence

48:40

or the charges? Do you think she should

48:42

have faced no criminal consequences at all? I think

48:44

she bears some responsibility. I

48:46

guess it's probably at the beginning, the charges. And

48:51

it's not that I don't think that, in

48:53

the same way that the person walking

48:55

down the street who ignores somebody who's

48:57

in need of aid, that's morally repugnant, but

48:59

is it criminal? I just

49:01

am confused about where to draw the

49:04

line. And so because of that confusion,

49:06

I don't know how to sign on

49:08

to the whole thing. It seems like

49:10

at any point where you do draw

49:13

that line, it's not sufficient.

49:15

It's not either too much or

49:17

too little. It's never going to fit. I

49:20

also ask a question just in terms

49:22

of the bullying and that idea. Like,

49:24

Rabia, maybe you know, the tenor of

49:26

the back and forth, was it one-sided?

49:29

Was he reaching out to her just as much as she

49:31

was reaching out to him? Bullying

49:35

sort of says to me, it's like

49:37

one person is on the attack, the

49:39

other person is on the retreat, and

49:41

not necessarily re-engaging unless they're re-engaging in

49:43

a way, like stop. Or

49:45

did he somehow participate in this? Is

49:48

there something that he was getting from

49:50

this constant? messages

50:00

to each other. The night before he died,

50:02

I mean, they were texting all night, they

50:04

spoke for an hour and a half on

50:06

the phone in a couple different conversations. They

50:08

were definitely very close and bonded. But there

50:10

were in that last week, many moments in

50:12

which as she's saying, it's time he's saying,

50:15

I don't think so. I'm not really sure.

50:17

But it was

50:19

a very gentle, it wasn't like leave me alone.

50:21

You're like, you know, and it was

50:23

gentle on both sides. She, she, like you said, Josh,

50:25

it wasn't like she was coming across like, I hate

50:27

you. She's like, I love you. It's time to go.

50:29

I love you. It's time to

50:31

die. I'm like, yeah, I know. You know, we

50:33

were talking about the case of a young man

50:35

who left the bar and was

50:38

just found the other day, Riley Strain, I don't

50:40

know if you are following that case. This is

50:42

out in Nashville. 21 year old, he was

50:44

deeply intoxicated. So the bars like you got to get

50:46

out like, oh, you can't be this drunk in here.

50:49

He gets out disappears. They found his body just I

50:51

think a couple of days ago and he had drowned

50:53

and but there's also kind of some suspicion around it

50:55

because he's missing like his pants and his wallet and

50:57

some other things. So we don't know. So the argument

50:59

that my co host at the time was making was

51:01

shouldn't the bar have been responsible because they have some

51:04

culpability here because the bar was like, you are too

51:06

drunk to be here. So why do you think he's

51:08

okay on the street? And I said, well, every bar

51:10

would shut down then I feel like if they had

51:12

be responsible for what a drunk person did

51:14

when they left. That's right. The bar. That's right. I mean,

51:17

this this happens. There's what

51:19

is it? Something like 20,000 drunk driving

51:21

deaths every year, right? Not

51:23

drunk driving, but just road deaths in

51:25

America, some large percentage of which are

51:28

drunk driving. And many of those

51:30

people were drinking at a bar drinking a bar or

51:32

they picked up a lot of alcohol from a

51:34

store. Should the store be liable that you can't

51:36

sell this much alcohol? Yeah. So the slippery slope

51:38

always makes me hesitate. Having said that bullying is

51:40

such a serious issue. I pulled one child out

51:42

of a school because of bullying.

51:44

And so as a parent, like it's really

51:47

hard. But you know, a lot of the

51:49

states in this country do have laws against

51:51

bullying in Australia actually has legislation known as

51:53

known as Brody's law because a young woman

51:56

named Brody Panlock who was bullied took her

51:58

life. And so Under

52:00

Brodie's people who bully in schools,

52:02

internet in other situations can be

52:04

punished. After ten years in jail

52:06

cell Vienna, there is a shift

52:09

to criminalize is kind. Of behavior that

52:11

results in some a taken a life. Do those

52:13

bullying laws apply to adults? They can apply

52:15

to adults and children as well. I'm for me

52:17

to me was bullied by and but Iraq in

52:19

school be cyber bullied into the. And I mean, and

52:21

unreal. I could get bullied in the film business all the time.

52:25

Are you bringing charges against? I Am. I

52:27

am Now They've now. I'm not the believe

52:29

me. I.

52:32

Bought these guys are some last thoughts about

52:34

this. This was the case at us to

52:36

talk about obviously outlast thought and then I'm

52:38

gonna ask as it's healthily around. Yeah.

52:40

It It's not a who done it. It's

52:42

not even necessarily why did they do it.

52:45

It's something different. It's how do we feel

52:47

about you And were said the legal line

52:49

be like we brought. We all feel bad

52:51

when we all feel terrible about it but

52:53

didn't. Consequences? Okay with it and I guess

52:55

happy because you're saying. It. Doesn't matter

52:57

why she dead but don't think it does

53:00

matter because if she did it because she

53:02

thought she was doing something good for conrad

53:04

it versus she's like. No, I am

53:07

just whatever. Yes, I think it does.

53:09

if there is a reasonable see makes

53:11

the case and I think her lawyers

53:13

made the case as she thought it

53:15

was good. It's this the romeo and

53:17

juliet thing is very different than a

53:19

classic bullying story of i wanna make

53:21

this person feel terrible and I want

53:23

them to kill themselves because I hate

53:25

them. That's something different in my mind

53:27

Kyle and closing thoughts to to of

53:29

Questions life lessons you know Have you

53:31

ever played a Judge Go? I played

53:33

Judge Earl Warren up. Also you should

53:35

know the answer. You to know the as

53:37

A so I should know the answer you

53:39

are in fact are you really answer is

53:41

i'm gonna ruin his his oh my god.

53:43

It's a simple story straight for fact that

53:46

it has inspired all these questions and in

53:48

society Media to even is the a documentary

53:50

of a Lifetime movie. there's an eight episode

53:53

of Google miniseries other Go from Plainville. Having

53:55

said that Missile card herself is not allowed

53:57

to profit from any part the story and

53:59

she was released on twenty. Twenty after

54:02

having served less than a year

54:04

and. Basically shoes are made public appearance

54:06

and not a peep. Well. We feel

54:08

about it legally, she's done or time and

54:10

so you know. I guess absolution is where

54:12

she that I don't know are you doesn't

54:14

make any more podcast. I was selling car. We

54:17

got to go find those guys. He tried to rob

54:19

the A T M and left their license plate of

54:21

the crime. And

54:23

I was trying to convince Justice is

54:25

a new new evidence that Shakespeare's family

54:27

was different than we know of it.

54:29

So I thought we could go back

54:31

to Stratford is trying to dig up

54:33

some old information. History has a history

54:35

mystery but that we would go down

54:38

absolutely the wrong rabbit hole so would

54:40

become a history comedy, some liquor podcast.

54:42

He? well yeah Disney. Wine involved. You must

54:44

have amazing podcasting places like the last. The

54:46

Sir Allen said he said he podcasting and thank

54:48

you The an I went well I did my

54:50

first podcast which was just a series advocate

54:52

for the same has not young man anymore I

54:55

thought and as a lawyer making a show so

54:57

that I can help him and them and

54:59

move on and. I. Never escaped. Seven years they

55:01

them supply testing so. Welcome. To

55:03

my worlds and you will always. It's nice

55:05

houses now forever and us also that about

55:07

what you are working on that substantive an

55:10

eye out for. Yeah, I'm I'm got

55:12

us a series coming out on

55:14

Amazon called Fall Out which is

55:16

set in the world of a

55:18

very popular immersive video game called

55:20

Fallout and we drop April eleventh

55:22

and does that My next thing

55:24

and I have a show coming

55:26

out on Apple T V next

55:28

month about a little known aspect

55:30

of the Black Panthers political history

55:32

which was Huey Newton was charged

55:34

with murder which could be a

55:36

good case for you to dig

55:38

into and a future episode. He.

55:40

said he was innocent and that he

55:42

was being railroaded by the oakland police

55:45

department and he fled and when he

55:47

fled he showed up at the door

55:49

a bird snyder who was the producer

55:51

of easy rider the nineteen seventies i've

55:53

huge monster hit because huey and bert

55:56

were friends and huey wanted bert to

55:58

help him get set to basically smuggle

56:00

him to Cuba. And so Bert

56:02

put together this team of Hollywood

56:05

costume designers and set decorators to

56:07

mount an operation to smuggle Huey

56:09

out of the United States and

56:12

they succeeded. That is an amazing story. It's

56:15

called The Big Cigar. It comes out

56:17

next month on Apple. Oh,

56:19

exciting. Congratulations to both of you. Can folks follow

56:21

you online? I know Kyle, like me, you don't

56:24

TikTok, but is there any way folks can follow

56:26

you on social media? I do TikTok.

56:28

I've joined the TikTok generation. Yes,

56:30

I have. Oh, way ahead of

56:32

me. Okay. What's your

56:34

handle on TikTok? It's just Kyle underscore

56:36

McLachlan. And Josh, what about you? Joshua

56:38

Davis now on X. Oh, you're only

56:41

on X? Only on X. Oh God,

56:43

that place gives me the BBGBs. Anyway. I

56:45

mean, I haven't posted in like a year. I think

56:47

I posted once in the last year. You never post.

56:50

Well, you know what? If you make the switch to Instagram, which

56:52

I finally did a couple years ago,

56:54

it's a much kinder, friendlier place. And you can

56:56

pretend nothing in the political world is actually happening

56:58

on Instagram. Anyway,

57:01

thank you guys so much again for joining

57:03

us. And Kyle, have a wonderful visit to

57:05

Scotland. Thank you. Yeah, we're going

57:08

to London and then down to Cannes for

57:10

the Cannes series event that they have

57:12

down there. It's going to be nice. Yeah. Amazing. It's

57:14

a tough life. Enjoy. And

57:17

I'd love to have you back anytime. And for those of you

57:19

who have not listened to Varnamtown, what are you doing? Go listen

57:21

to it. It's amazing. It's such a great series. Thank

57:24

you guys for everything you do. Thanks, Rabia.

57:26

Thanks, Fabian. Thanks for joining

57:28

us this week. It was such an amazing

57:30

surprise and pleasure to have on superstars like

57:33

Kyle and Josh. Once again, check out Varnamtown

57:35

on your favorite podcast app. And don't forget

57:37

to follow us on social media. You'll find

57:39

us at Rabia and Ellen on Instagram. We

57:42

have a private Facebook page. You just got

57:44

to answer a couple of questions and I

57:46

will personally let you in. We have a

57:48

Patreon. It is patreon.com/Rabia and Ellen. Join us

57:51

there for tons more content. We have watch

57:53

parties together, documentary, anything you want to watch.

57:55

We'll like set up a time. It's so

57:57

much fun. We do a couple of different.

58:00

kinds of episodes. We do a SpeakPipe

58:02

episode, which is we listen to listener

58:04

comments. You guys can leave us messages

58:06

at speakpipe.com/solve the case, and then we

58:08

will play those messages and respond to

58:10

them on our SpeakPipe episodes on Patreon.

58:13

There's lots of different levels. And by

58:15

the way, we have some new levels coming

58:17

in, including some really exciting premiere ones that

58:19

will give you just nice, warm, intimate access

58:21

to us. Please don't forget to subscribe to

58:23

the show, share it with others, rate and

58:25

review us, but only if you're going to give us five stars and

58:28

say nice things, because otherwise you're going to hurt my feelings. Thank

58:30

you so much for tuning in. And oh, we

58:32

are going on tour. So check out our

58:34

Instagram page or our Facebook page for tour

58:37

dates. And we have links to where you

58:39

can get tickets. We will be in Philadelphia,

58:41

New York, Nashville and Chicago. Those are our

58:43

tour dates currently. We might be adding DC at the

58:45

end of the summer if we can squeeze it in. But don't

58:47

miss out. It's gonna be a lot of fun. We'll have a

58:50

guest with us. We'll talk about, we'll do what we do

58:52

on our show, me and Ellen. We'll be in sequence. We'll be

58:54

on a stage. We'll be talking about a case that we're

58:56

gonna solve together. All right. Love you guys. Thank you so much

58:58

and see you next week. I

59:01

got out of the shower as I was

59:03

cleaning off the mirror and I saw

59:06

fingers pushing through my window. He

59:09

looked very demonic and he

59:11

said like a really scruffy

59:13

voice. He said, hey, I

59:15

headed up that way. And my dog

59:18

barked and I looked over and he

59:20

was probably 20 feet away from me

59:22

walking straight towards me. He

59:24

used her phone after he had killed

59:26

her to add me on

59:28

Facebook. I'm Jamie Beebe.

59:31

And I'm Jake Deptula. We're the hosts

59:33

of Strictly Stalking, bringing you heroic stories

59:35

of those who have survived at the

59:37

hands of a stalker. To hear these

59:39

stories and more, listen to Strictly Stalking

59:41

wherever you get your podcasts.