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0:15

Hi, Rabia.

0:19

Hey, Ellen.

0:23

How

0:26

are you doing? I'm

0:29

good. How are you? I'm good. I was thinking I should

0:31

just start calling you Marsh. Marsh?

0:34

Yeah. Hey, Marsh. Like we're old, old

0:37

school detectives, you know, like grizzled.

0:39

Marsh and Chaudry on

0:42

the case. And we have like cigars or like

0:44

a pipe. That would be super fun. Well,

0:47

welcome everyone to Rabia and Ellen

0:49

Solve the Case. And welcome

0:51

if you're new and hi again if

0:53

you aren't. And we are here

0:55

on our True Crime Talk Show. And today

0:58

we are welcoming not only

1:01

a decorated journalist, podcaster,

1:04

badass, but our dear friend

1:06

who we love and adore. It

1:09

is the Maggie Freeling. Hi, Maggie.

1:11

Hey, guys. Nice to see

1:13

you.

1:14

Welcome, Maggie. I'm so excited to have you. You are

1:16

a true crime legend. You really are.

1:19

Thank you. And I listen to you guys all the time. Even though

1:21

I didn't know what a DB was, I swear

1:24

I listened. We

1:28

know you do because we get text messages. I know. What

1:30

about this? It's kind

1:32

of my favorite thing. Whenever there's something

1:35

that Maggie gets really passionate about, she'll

1:37

like we'll have a text chain and she's like, did you think

1:39

about that? Did you think about that? We're like, yeah, Maggie. We

1:41

only get like an hour and some minutes to

1:44

tell this story.

1:44

But I have been texting

1:47

with you guys all week long because I again,

1:49

I want this case to be a 16 part

1:52

series. But before we jump in, for those

1:54

of you who live in a under

1:57

a true crime rock, please let me just

1:59

give.

1:59

a brief synopsis of Maggie

2:02

Freeling. She has a teeny tiny

2:04

shiny new Pulitzer

2:07

prize for being

2:09

a reporter and a producer and a bad

2:11

ass. Wait, wait, can I stop you for a second? Maggie,

2:13

what does a Pulitzer look like? What

2:16

does it actually look like? There isn't one. Wait,

2:18

excuse me, what? I got a sheet

2:20

of paper and then it's, it's

2:24

those two little like coins with, I

2:26

think. Yeah, it's not that they gave you like a

2:28

plaque with the coins, the actual coins. No,

2:30

no, no. Really

2:33

sad. The really prestigious

2:35

award. I got a piece of paper. I

2:37

know! Holy crap. Whatever it

2:39

is. I'm printing myself up one tonight. I'm printing one

2:41

up myself. I know, right? Like

2:44

anyone's just gonna, anyone's gonna deny that.

2:47

But she is the host and producer of

2:49

Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freeling.

2:51

She also has hit podcasts

2:54

Murder in Alliance and Unjust and Unsolved,

2:57

all focusing on wrongful convictions

3:00

and crimes that are often left unsolved.

3:03

She is also an adjunct professor.

3:05

We need to talk about that because she has so

3:08

many tattoos. You couldn't possibly be a professor,

3:10

right, Maggie? I'm too dumb to

3:12

be a

3:13

professor because of my tattoos. So.

3:15

You're a really bad influence on this. Really bad influence on those kids,

3:17

man. Really bad influence. Yeah. Yeah.

3:21

Among her several accolades, she was an NPR

3:24

Next Generation Radio Fellow in 2019 Ford

3:26

Foundation. 50 women

3:29

can change the world in journalism.

3:31

And in 2023, she was

3:33

honored during the World Woman

3:36

Hour by the World Woman Foundation

3:39

for breaking the role as female change

3:41

maker. There are so many things we can say

3:43

about you, but you are smart. You

3:46

speak your mind, which of course

3:48

we love. You are such a pillar and

3:50

an icon and a gem in this community.

3:53

And we're just happy to call you friend and happy

3:55

that you can be here with us. I feel

3:57

the same

3:57

about both of you. So this is very

3:59

exciting.

3:59

And I feel really passionately about this case

4:02

and I'm glad that we're doing it because it is a kookoo

4:04

bananas Well, it is kookoo bananas.

4:07

Megan. Where are you right now right now? You are like

4:09

out in the desert somewhere, right? Yeah, so I

4:11

wanted to tell listeners, um, this is so

4:14

tragic But I'm in the desert and there

4:16

is a power outage because that happens in the desert

4:18

So now I have to be at my friend's bar in an office

4:21

and i'm

4:21

so sorry if you can hear the bar That's

4:23

fine.

4:24

I think it's a lot of fun to be coming in from

4:26

a bar. There's nothing tragic about that You're

4:28

gonna have a good time. The after party awaits you

4:31

I think Yeah, have a glass of wine

4:33

if you're thirsty Maggie. We're chill around

4:35

around these parts. Yeah, but We

4:38

have so much to discuss about the case

4:40

that you have chosen but first

4:42

before we dive in we Absolutely

4:45

have to play our game called three

4:48

quick things And robbie is

4:50

chomping at the bit to give you her question today.

4:52

Yeah, what's your question? Oh my god I have I

4:54

have a two parter because um, I

4:57

don't have to follow the rules ellen Uh, it's

4:59

like you don't have you make the rules Here's

5:01

here's what I want to know If there is one

5:04

case you desperately wish you could work

5:06

on What would that be and who

5:08

would you like to work on it with like name like a dream

5:11

investigator? You put down your hand ellen name

5:15

You could team up with one person you've always wanted

5:17

to work with On a case you've always wanted to work

5:19

with who would that person and per case

5:21

be honestly robbie? I would love to team

5:24

up with you, but I feel like it would be a

5:26

case that maybe you wouldn't normally

5:28

do um The long island serial

5:31

killer case has always been like

5:33

my I grew up on

5:34

long island My parents went to buy

5:36

the house after you know, it

5:38

was up for sale and they found shannon gilbert's body.

5:40

So like i'm very Obsessed

5:44

with that case very much. So I know so

5:46

many of the players in it. Um

5:49

I would say the lisp case and

5:51

and it's certainly have you ever like tried? Have

5:53

you ever been like hey? I'm right here. Like give

5:56

me the case files people so

5:59

Yeah Yes, I'm actually working on

6:01

something right now. Related,

6:05

yeah, it's not LISC, but it's

6:07

tangential. I have a guy saying he's

6:09

wrongfully convicted for the murder

6:12

of his girlfriend, and he actually

6:14

has a

6:14

very good case for it being someone

6:17

who was a part of the LISC situation.

6:21

Yeah. Oh, wow, okay. Yeah,

6:23

so I'm kind of diving into it

6:25

that way. But also,

6:28

like, Israel Kees, man, Josh Hallmark,

6:30

I would love to just be his

6:32

researcher, you know? Oh,

6:34

yeah. Yeah, nice, good

6:36

answer, good answers. What was

6:39

the two part? Oh, the case and who

6:41

would you want

6:41

to do it? Yeah, yeah.

6:43

Okay, I'm gonna put aside my

6:45

emotions that you didn't choose me, Maggie. I'm

6:48

sorry, Ellen. I just assumed

6:50

that, honestly, that my research

6:52

is just too thorough and it's just too

6:54

daunting. So that's where

6:55

I'm gonna go with that. It's the color

6:58

coding,

6:58

Ellen. I was gonna say the color coding is too, it's...

7:02

Listen, the ADHD

7:04

brain, it works for my brain. I want people

7:06

to know that there's so much color coding. She actually

7:08

has to use the color peach to code

7:10

some of the stuff. Like, she's run out of colors. This

7:13

is how many colors are used. Blue, green,

7:16

dark

7:16

blue, light purple, peach, orange, purple, pink.

7:19

Ha, but here's the funny thing. I

7:21

never realized, even though the colors are all over the

7:23

page, I never realized it was color coded. I

7:26

just didn't say 10 to the colors. I

7:28

made that key at the top

7:30

just for you, Rabia. I ignored it, I totally ignored

7:32

it. And I ignored, Rabia sends me

7:35

encyclopedia Britannica. She sends

7:37

me paragraphs. I'm like, what do you want me to do with that?

7:39

I don't know what you want me to do. You want me to read that? You want me to make

7:41

sense of that? You know what, I may change

7:44

my answer. I'm gonna work with Ellen instead

7:46

because I like the

7:47

color coding to be honest. Okay, yes.

7:50

Fair enough, you're not

7:51

getting color coding with me. I

7:53

actually select all and then click

7:55

black. With all everything.

7:58

Click the sales to Wikipedia. copy,

8:00

cut, paste. That's all she does. Maggie,

8:03

I'm gonna go off-tru crime for a minute

8:06

and people who don't know you,

8:08

first of all, you are the weensiest

8:10

little Polly Pocket pixie. People

8:13

are so, whenever they meet you in

8:15

person, they're so taken aback by how weensy

8:17

and tiny you are and this little

8:20

weensy tiny badass full

8:22

of fuck bombs and such

8:25

is tattooed from head to toe. Tell

8:27

me our most favorite tattoo

8:30

and tell me the story behind it and why

8:32

you love it. I don't know if there's

8:34

a favorite honestly.

8:36

I have a lot that I really hate.

8:40

Oh, okay. You know, I

8:42

have a couple matching with my mom. She

8:45

loves getting matching tattoos. It's like her thing. We

8:48

have a bunch, I'd say those are probably my favorite,

8:50

my mom tattoos. How many matching ones

8:52

do you guys have? Two or three. There

8:54

could be three and I have one for my dad

8:56

as well. We have a matching one. So I've got

8:58

a few family tattoos, a couple

9:01

tattoos are art drawings

9:04

my brother did in his sketchbook. So there's

9:06

a lot of family stuff happening.

9:08

So cool and just

9:11

so you know, and this is very very powerful,

9:14

my daughter thinks you're the coolest. I am

9:17

an asshole. You are

9:19

the coolest. It's how mother, it's how parenting works.

9:22

I get to be cool aunt. I love this. I

9:24

love this. Yes, you are absolutely cool aunt.

9:26

Ellen, do you have any tattoos? Yeah, I have

9:28

two. I have a birth order tattoo. Oh, that's right.

9:30

I forgot. Yeah. Yeah, so they each have

9:33

one filled in and then I have a ladybug

9:36

because my grandfather and I used to

9:38

collect ladybugs, but I have so

9:40

many more I want to get. I really really

9:42

want to get Lola's first

9:45

time she wrote her name. Because

9:49

I have it saved and I have that plan tattoo.

9:51

I have a couple of them. Rabia

9:53

has a massive picture of me on her

9:55

back. It's creepy, but beautiful.

9:58

We all knew that Rabia. undress

10:00

it and it's just fucking covered. Yeah. And

10:02

the more I tone up, you know, it just

10:04

kind of, I don't know, it changes

10:06

Ellen's face. It's

10:09

like in she's both. She's both forever. I

10:11

love it. All right. Well,

10:14

Maggie, this is sort of a very easy

10:17

question for you because some

10:19

of our guests aren't necessarily in the true

10:21

crime space. But our third question we ask all

10:23

of our guests is how does true

10:25

crime fit into your life?

10:28

Oh my God. How does

10:31

it not fit into my life? I

10:34

mean, I guess when you work this, it's like every day of my life,

10:36

but I

10:37

liked true crime when it first

10:40

came out. When ID first came out, I was

10:42

the demographic. I think I was in like middle

10:44

school and I always say this,

10:47

but, you know, I would come home from school

10:49

and I would turn on disappeared or like whatever.

10:51

And I would just watch it for hours

10:54

and my mom would come home and be like, I

10:56

was just the biggest freak weirdo.

10:59

Like what is wrong with my daughter watching

11:01

murder shows? It was like, it was like porn.

11:03

I was like, shut it and like, hi. Like I was like run

11:05

away from investigation discovery.

11:07

Um, so I've always loved true

11:09

crime and I got really lucky when I was asked to do

11:12

the more Murray show and it just kind of became

11:14

my life. But you had a background in journalism

11:16

already right before that. And what was your

11:19

beat? What was your beat? I was doing,

11:21

so I started off doing like international

11:23

women's issues.

11:24

I wound up working at, uh, NPR's

11:27

Latino USA. So primarily Latinx

11:29

issues. I was doing border reporting and

11:31

detention center reporting. So I was going to detention center

11:33

and I spent a lot of time on the border. You were inching

11:36

closer and closer to the space anyways.

11:38

Yeah. Yeah. So it was

11:40

kind of like a natural progression in that way.

11:42

But yeah, it's weird that you

11:44

did anything with women's issues. I feel, I

11:46

feel like that would be like a five minute topic. Women

11:49

don't really have any issues. No, it's just, we're

11:51

doing great. Open and shut.

11:53

It's all boring. Rabia,

11:56

do you struggle to save money

11:59

every month? I mean, struggle might be too

12:01

strong a word, but I like to save money, how's that?

12:04

I also like to save money, and I am very,

12:06

very good with my money, but I will be very honest,

12:09

something that I always got dinged

12:12

for was subscriptions

12:14

that I've forgotten about. You

12:16

know, like you've signed up for a free trial

12:18

of something, and then you're like, oh, I'll cancel

12:21

that when I no longer need it, and you

12:23

completely forget about it? Yeah.

12:26

How are you supposed to track all that down? Well, we

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can tell you how, with Rocket Money. Rocket

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12:51

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12:54

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12:56

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12:59

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13:02

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13:07

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13:09

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things that makes me craziest, I mean like

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for those of us who are trying to take better care of

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you but are helpful to you is learning

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later like years later

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that oh your body can't actually absorb such

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how so many supplements and other things we

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take like are it did just pass right through your body but

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that's why I was really excited to hear that next

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that's why I was really excited to hear that next

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Well we have to jump into

16:14

this case, so please tell

16:17

our audience what case you chose and just

16:19

briefly why you chose

16:21

it, and then we're going to get into our crash course

16:23

and we have so much to solve in this

16:26

case. That is a solved case. I

16:28

think most people know Menendez

16:31

in this room probably. So yeah,

16:34

we're going to be covering the case

16:37

of Lyle and Eric Menendez.

16:39

If you asked any novice true crime connoisseur

16:42

what murder trial remains etched in their

16:44

brains, most people would say the OJ

16:46

Simpson murder trial. That's because

16:49

outlets like Court TV played a massive

16:52

role in the day-to-day coverage the likes

16:54

of which the average person had never

16:56

seen in the mid-90s. But some people

16:58

forget it was actually the Menendez brothers

17:01

trial that showed the inner workings

17:03

of a real live courtroom drama. The

17:06

trial transfixed the nation. In fact,

17:08

more than 1.3 million people would

17:10

tune into the saga of two wealthy,

17:13

spoiled boys who killed their parents

17:15

in cold blood. So by the time

17:17

the Simpson trial came along, Court

17:19

TV was a well-oiled machine with hours

17:22

upon hours of testimony, expert

17:24

insight, and everyday people were able

17:27

to watch the legal minutia in the courtroom.

17:30

Moreover, this type of coverage turned judges,

17:33

lawyers, and even witnesses into

17:35

celebrities. When was the last time

17:37

you thought about Cato Kaelin? Eric

17:40

and Lyle Menendez became household

17:42

names and a part of lunchtime conversation

17:45

for people who couldn't turn away from

17:47

this trial. Eric and Lyle

17:49

Menendez, you know the type, you

17:51

probably went to high school with them. The

17:53

wealthy boys who lived in a $4 million, 23-room,

17:55

Mediterranean-style mansion.

17:59

They drove far too fancy cars

18:02

for kids. I mean, who drives an Alfa

18:04

Romeo to school? They had

18:06

designer clothes, they traveled first class,

18:09

and they always got their way. The

18:11

handsome young men were good at sports and

18:14

fairly smart. It seemed that

18:16

they felt they were entitled to everything, and

18:18

the narrative was the spoiled rich boys thought

18:20

they could get away with anything. It

18:22

was easy to roll your eyes at the Menendez brothers

18:25

on trial 30 years ago, that is, and those

18:28

stupid sweaters. The color

18:30

of painted Easter eggs, an obvious

18:32

attempt to look younger, more wholesome,

18:34

and most certainly less capable

18:37

of murdering their parents while in their

18:39

home. Police later found out they

18:41

went on lavish and ridiculous spending

18:43

sprees after they lost their parents. I

18:46

mean, who does that? Obviously

18:48

greedy kids looking for their multi-million

18:50

dollar inheritance, right? Unlike other

18:52

cases we have covered, the Black Dahlia, Kendrick

18:55

Johnson, and John Bonet Ramsey, there

18:57

is no mystery around the murder of Jose and

18:59

Kitty Menendez. We know what happened.

19:02

Eric and Lyle confessed to the savage murders.

19:04

But why? Why would they brutally

19:07

murder their parents, who, to the outside world,

19:09

provided them with the good life? Eric

19:12

and Lyle were born into privilege and wealth to Jose

19:14

and Kitty Menendez.

19:16

Jose had fled Cuba after the revolution and

19:18

stayed with family before earning a college scholarship

19:21

for swimming. He married Mary

19:23

Louise Kitty Anderson in college. Early

19:26

after their wedding, they moved to New York City, where

19:28

Jose's persistence had him rapidly working

19:30

up from dishwasher to working in

19:32

the fast-paced world of entertainment.

19:35

In the early 80s, Jose became head of RCA

19:37

Records, where he helped to sign acts

19:40

like Duran Duran and Minuto.

19:42

The couple had two sons, Eric and Lyle,

19:44

and the family

19:45

of four moved to Los Angeles. What

19:48

other town would the wealthy elite settle down

19:50

in other than Beverly Hills?

19:52

Living the life of the 1%, the Menendez

19:54

brothers were pushed to succeed by the competitive

19:56

nature of their father. Lyle

19:59

had business smarts. and Eric was a gifted

20:01

tennis player. Private coaches

20:03

and tutors were hired because anything less than the best

20:05

was not tolerated.

20:07

Eric grew up worshiping Lyle. The

20:10

brothers were described as extremely close

20:12

despite their contrasting personalities.

20:15

Lyle was described as having a strong, witty

20:17

personality while Eric was described as

20:19

sensitive and quiet. Even

20:22

though they had everything money could buy, as

20:24

they got older, they started acting out. Eric

20:27

took part in a number of burglaries and was forced

20:29

to attend therapy while Lyle was suspended

20:31

from Princeton for a year for plagiarism.

20:34

But there were far more nefarious dealings

20:36

behind their gated mansion. On

20:39

October 18th, 1989, Eric and

20:41

Lyle Menendez purchased shotguns at

20:43

a Big Five Sporting Goods store in San Diego,

20:46

over 100 miles away from their family's mansion

20:48

in Beverly Hills. But then

20:50

life carried on as usual. On October

20:53

19th, their parents chartered a yacht and took them

20:55

shark fishing. But the very next day,

20:58

on August 20th, they burst into

21:00

their home and discharged 15 shots

21:02

into their parents while the couple was watching television

21:05

on their couch. Eric said that

21:07

he fired first, but in the end

21:09

it was Lyle that landed the bullet in the back

21:11

of Jose's head and shot the

21:13

fatal blow to Kitty's face.

21:15

They called 911. What's

21:25

the problem? What's the problem? That's

21:29

what we do, my dad. Pardon me? What?

21:33

Who? Are

21:34

they still there? The people...

21:36

Oh no.

21:37

Were they shot? Were

21:41

they shot? Yes. They were shot? Yes.

21:46

What

21:50

happened? I

21:56

have a hysterical person on who's trying to get to you

21:58

further. I don't even know if she's finding it.

21:59

Is

22:04

the person still there? What

22:07

happened? We

22:09

have unit hero, what happened? Who

22:13

shot who? Um, no,

22:15

no, no, no. He came home and

22:17

found who shot. Um, yeah. Do

22:21

you know what they're still in the house? The people

22:23

that did the shooting. Get

22:26

away from them. Okay, hang on. Let

22:30

me talk to Eric. Who is

22:33

the person that was shot? My

22:38

mom and dad. Your mom and dad?

22:41

My mom

22:41

and dad. Okay, hold on a

22:43

second. Okay,

22:47

we're on our way over there with an ambulance. Okay,

22:49

I gotta go. Okay. Let's

22:52

rewind. Exactly seven days before

22:54

the murders, Jose told Eric that he's

22:56

not going to live at UCLA campus during the upcoming

22:59

school year as he had planned to. Why

23:01

would this be such a blow to Eric? Every

23:04

kid dreams of living in the dorms and living their lives

23:06

as young

23:06

people. Drinking, partying,

23:09

and sex like all young people do when they get a taste

23:11

of independence. But it wasn't that.

23:14

It was because he had endured years

23:16

of aggressive sexual abuse at the hands of his

23:18

father. Usually going to college

23:20

is one of the most exciting and thrilling times

23:23

of a young person's life. Not to Eric.

23:25

This was his chance to escape Jose. He

23:28

longed to escape the sexual abuse and

23:30

nonstop trauma of his life. Eric

23:33

kept his secret from everyone, including

23:35

his brother Lyle. But

23:36

on Tuesday, August 15th, 1989,

23:39

Eric finally confessed to his brother that the

23:41

abuse from Jose was still happening. Lyle

23:44

had also been sexually abused by his father

23:46

when he was six through age

23:48

eight.

23:49

Back then though, Jose assured Lyle it wasn't

23:52

happening to his little brother. So on Wednesday,

23:54

August 16th, Lyle planned to

23:56

bring his brother back to Princeton with him to

23:59

save his little brother. from his living nightmare.

24:01

Later that night, Lyle decided to tell Kitty

24:04

about their plan to leave. At one

24:06

point, he also told Kitty that Jose

24:08

had been molesting Eric and it needed to stop.

24:11

Kitty insisted it was all lies and

24:13

screamed for him to leave her room. Back

24:15

to the night of the murders,

24:17

the couple had been killed by two 12-gauge

24:19

shotguns, with Jose having been

24:21

shot multiple times in the arms and once

24:24

in the head, and Kitty being shot in

24:26

the torso and face. The initial

24:28

thought was that they had been the victims of a mob hit.

24:31

The boys weren't even considered suspects

24:33

at first. Their story of being out

24:35

at the movies and coming home to find this exceptionally

24:37

bloody scene checked out. It

24:40

wasn't until seven months later the investigation

24:42

reached a turning point.

24:44

While speaking to his therapist, Eric confessed

24:46

to killing his parents along with his brother. The

24:48

therapist's ex-partner found out and went to the

24:50

police. On March 8th, 1990,

24:53

Lyle Menendez was arrested and a few days later

24:55

on March 11th, Eric turned himself in.

24:59

During their trial, the brothers pled guilty and

25:01

claimed self-defense.

25:02

Prosecutors, however,

25:03

argued the Menendez brothers killed their parents

25:06

to gain access to a $14 million

25:08

inheritance. The defense built

25:11

a tragic and detailed case that involved

25:13

the testimony from not only an emotional Eric

25:15

and Lyle, but more than 60 witnesses

25:18

and spanned five months. The

25:20

defense's case also included evidence of extensive

25:23

physical and psychological abuse. There

25:25

were witness accounts from experts in the field of sexual

25:27

abuse, as well as family members who received

25:30

emotional confessions from the boys about

25:32

their years of torture inside their

25:34

silver spoon life. The defense

25:36

argued the murders were self-defense after the brothers

25:38

suffered years of sexual abuse from their parents,

25:41

which led to them ultimately fearing for their

25:43

lives. Each brother was initially

25:45

tried separately, and in each trial,

25:48

their juries could not reach a decision. And

25:51

in the subsequent trial, Eric and Lyle

25:53

were tried together. There were several

25:55

differences in the second trial, mainly

25:58

absolutely no witnesses or talk of sexual abuse. abuse

26:00

was allowed and so the two were convicted

26:02

of first-degree murder

26:03

and were sentenced to life in prison without parole. The

26:05

brothers story was impossible to corroborate

26:08

because the alleged villain was dead. By

26:11

the time the brothers opened up about this abuse

26:13

the public had already started hating them

26:15

and eating up the spoiled rich boy narrative

26:18

for years. But maybe you've

26:20

seen the brothers in the headlines lately. Why?

26:23

A letter which was not offered as evidence

26:25

at either trial was discovered in 2018 by Marta Cano,

26:27

Jose Menendez's

26:31

younger sister. It was a letter

26:33

from a 13 year old Eric telling his cousin

26:36

Andy that Jose Menendez was

26:38

quote, massaging his genitals. He

26:41

went on to write, I never know when it's gonna

26:43

happen and it's driving me crazy. Every

26:46

night I stay up thinking he might come in. I'm

26:48

afraid. You just don't know what God is

26:50

like like I do. He's crazy.

26:53

He warned me a hundred times about telling

26:55

anyone, especially Lyle. Not

26:57

only that, recently ex-members from the band

27:00

Menudo have come forward with detailed

27:02

confessions of sexual abuse by

27:05

Jose Menendez. This newly discovered

27:07

evidence directly supports what the defense

27:10

presented at trial. In a recent

27:12

petition for a new trial the attorneys argue

27:14

that the new evidence could have led to a different

27:17

outcome had it been presented in

27:19

the brothers defense. Our 2023 minds

27:22

can't wrap our heads around not

27:24

taking into consideration the profound harm

27:26

and utter horrors that sexual abuse does

27:28

to victims. The very thought of dismissing

27:31

such circumstances seems archaic,

27:33

morally wrong, and just plain cruel. The

27:36

deep impact of living a life with sexual abuse

27:39

is a concept we now understand far better

27:41

than we did 30 years ago. We also didn't

27:43

have conversations around men being the victims

27:46

of awful sexual atrocities. While

27:48

neither brother denies committing the crime,

27:51

the second trial was conducted without providing the

27:53

jury with the full story. To an average

27:55

person that seems like a gross miscarriage

27:57

of justice. Today though our just

27:59

This system is flawed to say the least and

28:02

self-defense can be applied to a number of situations

28:04

including domestic and sexual violence

28:07

So do these men deserve a new trial should

28:09

they be let go with time served and we can't

28:11

help but wonder if the case Were the Menendez sisters

28:14

would there have been a different outcome?

28:16

Let's talk about it

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Shopify. So

31:52

specifically, why are you drawn

31:54

to this case? Is it because

31:57

it's in the headlines right now, which will definitely

31:59

get. to you, but why is this the case

32:01

you wanted to talk about today? So

32:04

when the murder happened, I

32:07

wasn't even born yet. I was still

32:09

in my mom's belly. So I did

32:14

grow up with this case in a sense. Like

32:16

I remember watching

32:19

or seeing clips on Court TV of just

32:21

these boys, like they still look like young kids

32:23

to me. So I remember this, I remember growing up with

32:25

OJ and John Benet, like all of

32:27

this stuff is so ingrained in me. Like again,

32:30

I am the demographic of true

32:32

crime, Court TV, all of that.

32:34

So, you know, it's always been one

32:37

of those cases that anything that comes up on it,

32:39

I'm interested. I just always want to know what's going on with

32:41

the Menendez boys. It

32:43

became more interesting to me in

32:46

the past couple of years when

32:49

their name started coming up in the headlines again about,

32:51

you know, filing appeals

32:54

because they never got a fair trial. And so

32:57

recently they did file their habeas

32:58

corpus and then this documentary came

33:00

out and there had been rumblings for

33:02

a

33:02

while about, you know, all of

33:05

the abuse. And I just thought this was a really

33:07

timely episode,

33:09

especially because there's actionable

33:12

things we can do. We can, you know,

33:15

let people know that they're trying to get a new trial.

33:17

Yeah, right.

33:18

So let's talk about that

33:20

because there were two trials.

33:23

The first trial, the boys were

33:26

tried separately and those

33:28

ended up in hung juries totally

33:30

deadlocked, which one

33:33

of my most interesting facts, I didn't

33:35

actually put it in the research was Lyle's

33:37

jury was split down the middle. The

33:40

six men voted for first

33:42

degree murder and the six women

33:45

voted for manslaughter. Totally

33:48

separate conversation. So the

33:50

main thing that I want to start with are the difference

33:54

in the trials because the first

33:56

trial is that trial we all saw

33:58

it was all the time.

34:01

It was the court TV. It

34:03

was those heart-wrenching testimonies.

34:07

The defense had 51 witnesses.

34:10

The boys each took the stand for

34:13

many, many days. They were

34:15

able to call all kinds of expert

34:18

witnesses that had

34:21

histories with sexual abuse, and

34:24

it was a very comprehensive trial,

34:27

which was very different from the second

34:30

trial where the same judge

34:32

presided, Judge Weisberg,

34:35

and he ruled that

34:38

basically none of

34:41

the conversations around sexual abuse

34:45

were to be talked about or permitted,

34:48

and they limited the number

34:51

of experts for, you know,

34:53

between psychiatrists and anyone

34:56

expert in the field of sexual assault to

34:58

one, and they

35:01

were also not allowed to

35:04

present the testimony of the psychiatrist

35:06

who had been treating Eric since 1990.

35:09

So I want to get your thoughts on the differences

35:13

between the

35:14

two trials where the final

35:17

trial, obviously we know, ended with

35:20

a first-degree murder conviction and

35:22

life without the possibility of parole, and

35:24

then we'll get into where it is now with the

35:26

habeas corpus and,

35:29

you know, it's just habeas, and all

35:31

of the bills passed in California since

35:33

then. Yeah, so basically

35:36

you laid out the two trials, and really

35:38

the fundamental

35:41

and overarching difference was in

35:43

the second trial they were not allowed

35:45

to bring up the abuse. So that meant

35:47

that the defense had no defense, because

35:50

that is what happened. The boys were traumatized,

35:53

they were being abused by their parents, and

35:55

they, you know,

35:57

psychologically traumatized, we understand

35:59

what happened.

36:01

They couldn't use that as

36:03

a defense in the second trial. They had

36:05

no defense in the second trial because the

36:07

prosecution said they murdered their parents for

36:10

money, spoiled

36:11

kids, and sure, there's receipts. There's

36:13

receipts

36:13

of $90,000 credit card charges. So

36:18

how do you defend against that?

36:20

It really,

36:21

they were set up to fail

36:24

in that trial. Right. It's exactly

36:26

what Maggie said. They basically were not allowed

36:28

to present a defense at all, and

36:32

there's also the fact that they

36:34

are a lot older in the second

36:36

trial too. This makes a difference. I mean, even between

36:38

the time of the crime and the time of the first trial,

36:41

right? Like we are trying to

36:44

think of them as children who are vulnerable

36:46

and cannot defend themselves, but it's hard to when they look like

36:48

grown men. And every few years

36:51

as this, you know, between the first and the second trial,

36:53

they're gonna look like even older grown men. And there's like, I

36:55

think there was nearly 30 by the time the second

36:57

trial rolls around. I'm not exactly sure, but I

36:59

think that also has an impact, but certainly,

37:02

I mean, I'm trying to think of like, if

37:05

at the second trial, they are presenting kind of the same

37:07

testimony about the

37:09

sexual assault about the abuse, I

37:12

do think it would have been even harder for them to convince

37:14

a jury of it because of just the fact that they look

37:17

so much

37:17

more mature.

37:18

And then even, you know, if

37:20

you're somebody like, you can only repeat a story

37:23

so many times, you know, and it

37:25

comes out in a way that's like, feels

37:27

almost convincing. And after a while, you tell

37:29

even the story of your own trauma enough times, you're

37:33

not gonna come across as traumatized as you're

37:35

telling it. So even how

37:37

they presented as witnesses would have been very different

37:39

anyway. So, yeah,

37:41

they were, they were, they were, you're

37:43

right. I mean, they were just up to fail by getting like the second trial.

37:46

There's no way they could have won that. I was gonna say just

37:48

about, you know, they were older at the second trial. Leslie

37:51

Abramson was

37:52

an amazing advocate for them. She

37:54

truly believed, you know, that

37:56

what

37:57

happened to them happens. And

37:59

she... really tried for them. And

38:01

Robbie, I wonder, you know, what you think about

38:03

she intentionally tried to dress

38:05

them to look younger, to make them look

38:08

like boys to be more sympathetic. And

38:10

I remember her getting a lot of shit about that. SNL

38:12

did a bunch of like horrible stuff. But

38:15

it's exactly what you said, Robbie, she knew that

38:18

and she needed to

38:19

let the jury somewhat

38:21

know that these were boys when this happened.

38:24

And that's why they kept calling them the boys like

38:26

they were being infantilized, but for a very

38:28

good reason. Yeah, no, it's important to do it. You know,

38:30

and it's, it's interesting, because I was

38:32

like 14 or 15 when this trial took place.

38:35

And the idea that kids would

38:38

kill their parents, this is the first time I think I ever heard

38:40

of, like that, that could even be a thing

38:42

that that even could happen in this world. But

38:46

it reminds me a lot of kind of like, I

38:48

love bringing that Scott Peterson just to see

38:51

Ellen's face. But Scott Peterson, the

38:53

response of pop culture, you mentioned silent live,

38:56

the response of so many people was just

38:58

complete, not just skepticism. But like, these

39:01

guys think they're making idiot fools out of us. Like

39:03

you think you're we're idiots. I mean, I

39:05

just remember thinking even and I knew very obviously,

39:08

I knew very little about like, kind of like the

39:10

details. But I do remember

39:12

hearing that the boy said they were abused. It was self-defense. And

39:14

like, please, right? I've got a

39:16

tough mom. You know what I mean? Like, I mean, like, I just thought

39:18

it was bullshit. And so, but now like the

39:21

lens at which we see these situations,

39:23

trauma abuse, it's just vastly

39:26

different 30 years later, you know, and I

39:28

just think about a lot so many of these convictions that

39:30

took place, like, not just

39:33

this case, but so many cases that we

39:34

don't even know about right under the radar.

39:36

It would have very, we'd have very different

39:38

outcomes today. Well, also, it

39:40

just for lack of better

39:42

words, sort of like what we said in the crash course

39:44

is, it's just not

39:47

fair, because though the boys

39:49

they ran from the law, right,

39:52

at first, no one even suspected

39:54

them. And then they went on this massive

39:56

spending spree and they bought Porsches

39:58

and they bought Rolexes. and they lived

40:00

at the Beverly Hills Hotel and they were acting

40:03

out and they were acting in a way that the public

40:06

immediately vilified them, right? And

40:08

then the abuse came out. But

40:11

how do you take these

40:14

expert testimonies that were in

40:16

the first trial? Like for example, I'm

40:18

gonna list the ones that they didn't allow

40:21

in the second trial. Dr. Ann Burgess,

40:23

who was an internationally recognized

40:26

pioneer in the assessment and treatment of

40:28

victims of trauma and abuse. And

40:31

she classified the scene

40:34

as having lack of planning, high emotionality

40:37

and testified that she absolutely

40:39

believed the brothers

40:41

abuse claims. Doctor after doctor,

40:44

Dr. John Wilson testified

40:46

that Eric Menendez displayed symptoms

40:49

of chronic post-traumatic stress disorder

40:51

and also testified that Eric Menendez

40:53

suffered from subclass of the disorder

40:55

known as battered person syndrome.

40:58

Another one said that the sexual abuse

41:00

may have gone on even longer than

41:03

Lyle can even remember. That

41:05

was Dr. John Conte. Dr.

41:08

Stuart Hart, a psychology

41:10

professor said that he

41:12

interviewed Lyle for 60 hours. Now

41:16

the prosecution had someone

41:18

interview him for 16 hours and

41:21

they all absolutely said, not

41:24

only was the trauma very real, very

41:27

evident in their actions and emotions, the

41:29

way they told the story with the same amount

41:31

of detail. And basically

41:34

that judge was like, yeah, none

41:36

of that matters. We just wanna know if they killed

41:38

them. They said they killed them. That

41:40

is not what we're trying to figure out.

41:43

They absolutely killed them. Murder is

41:46

absolutely wrong. But the thing

41:48

that has changed, which you brought up

41:50

Maggie, is that on September

41:53

30th, 2012, Governor Jerry

41:55

Brown signed into law AB 593, which

41:59

is no... by the sin of silence bill

42:02

which allows victims of domestic violence

42:05

whose expert testimony was

42:07

limited at their trial court proceedings

42:10

to re-file for

42:15

habeas corpus to allow the expert

42:17

testimony to weigh in

42:20

on their defense. So

42:22

all of these things were passed after

42:25

their trial so why aren't

42:28

they getting a new trial? But obviously the

42:31

main thing to come out post

42:33

trial was two things that happened

42:36

fairly recently and

42:38

one of those things was a letter

42:40

that was obtained by written

42:43

from Eric Menendez

42:45

to his cousin Andy who

42:47

testified in the first trial and

42:50

in the letter Eric wrote I've been

42:53

trying to avoid dad. It's

42:55

still happening Andy but it's

42:57

worse for me now. I can't explain

42:59

it. I never know when it's going to

43:01

happen and it's driving me crazy. Every

43:04

night I stay up thinking he might come

43:07

in and I need to put it out of my mind.

43:09

Now this letter wasn't discovered

43:11

until 2018 and

43:15

it's in his handwriting and

43:18

it's

43:19

showing that he wasn't making

43:21

this up on trial no matter what the

43:23

prosecution said. So

43:26

at what point do we say

43:28

that 30 years out we made a mistake? Obviously

43:31

we know murder

43:34

is wrong. They should not have murdered their parents

43:36

but do they deserve a new trial? Should

43:39

it have been manslaughter? We

43:41

just know so much more now and the conversation around sexual

43:45

assault from male to male

43:47

is something that we didn't really talk about 30 years ago. Yeah

43:49

and the answer to both your questions

43:52

is yes. It should have been

43:53

manslaughter and they should get a new trial. Yeah and at

43:56

the second trial I believe that

43:58

the judge wouldn't allow this to happen.

43:59

the jury to consider a man's,

44:02

even if they wanted to

44:03

convict them a manslaughter instead of virtually murder, they

44:06

couldn't do it. He removed that from

44:08

the possibilities.

44:10

Yeah. Also

44:12

just as early as 2023, a member

44:14

of Minuto, now remember Jose Menendez,

44:17

you know, had music

44:22

dealings with all these bands, Duran Duran,

44:24

Minuto, like we said in the Crash Course. But

44:26

a man by the name of Roy Rosello

44:29

says that he was drugged and

44:31

raped by Jose Menendez in

44:34

their New Jersey home. And another

44:37

member of the band, Angelo Garcia,

44:40

also detailed physical,

44:42

sexual, emotional abuse, talked

44:45

about, you know, being drugged. And

44:48

so that's just, you

44:51

know, more evidence that Jose Menendez

44:53

was an absolute monster.

44:55

Yeah, I think, I think he, you

44:57

know, I think that's the way to describe him. He sounds like an absolute

45:00

piece of shit

45:02

that like, even at his first trial, no one

45:04

said anything good about him. This is sort of nothing nice to say

45:06

about him. No one had anything nice

45:09

to say about this man. I

45:11

know, Maggie, you wanted to talk about the habeas. I

45:13

mean, you've done a lot of post conviction work. So you generally

45:15

know how,

45:16

how things go when you say I've got some

45:18

new evidence, like get me back in court,

45:21

you

45:21

know, appellate court, give me

45:23

a new trial or overturn my conviction, or

45:26

the reason I think it's going to be hard

45:29

for them to like win on this issue is because

45:32

they're arguing that we have new evidence

45:35

related to an issue that the

45:37

judge did not even allow at the trial

45:40

in

45:40

during which they're convicted. Forget the first trial, right?

45:42

Pretend I didn't happen. They had a second trial.

45:44

The second trial is how they were convicted. So he

45:47

did not allow any of this, the

45:50

sexual allegations stuff to come in. And so

45:52

even if this evidence had been discovered then and say

45:55

had it, it would not have been allowed in. So

45:57

would it have made a difference at trial? I mean, like it's such a weird

45:59

standard. Would it have made a difference at the trial

46:01

basically? And was it actually discoverable or

46:03

not? If you're going to make the argument it was not at all discoverable.

46:07

I can see court saying, well, even if

46:09

it wasn't discovered, or let's say, well, it should have been discoverable

46:11

because it was a letter. Somebody had it. Right. And why

46:14

didn't it was it a letter that Eric wrote

46:16

or Lyle wrote? Eric, why

46:18

didn't Eric remember that he wrote this letter? Right.

46:21

Like he, like, if, if I

46:23

am a prosecutor in this case, I'm going to make

46:25

the argument that it was absolutely discoverable, but

46:27

also it wouldn't have made a difference because if

46:30

the judge had actually allowed, let's say the judge allowed all the

46:32

sexual allegation evidence in

46:34

there was so much evidence, even without the letter, they probably,

46:36

the jury might have believed that they were, you know,

46:38

I mean, I don't know how much that letter would have substantially

46:42

bolstered that

46:45

belief that either they were, were not

46:47

being molested. Well, the letter proved

46:50

that they weren't just making it

46:52

up in the moment. That's what the prosecution

46:54

was alleging that, oh, all of

46:56

a sudden you were raped

46:58

by your dad. That's really sus. I mean,

47:00

they denied all allegations

47:03

of the abuse. They were making it up, but that

47:05

right in the first trial, but the letter shows,

47:09

you know, he, he asks his, his

47:11

cousin, he says, my dad massages

47:14

my genitals. Does your dad do that?

47:16

Yeah. So that shows

47:18

a little bit of concrete evidence because

47:20

that, but the cousin testified at the first

47:22

trial. Yeah. So the cousin has testified,

47:25

the cousin, cousin has been having personal knowledge of this

47:27

stuff, right? Like contemporary contemporaneous

47:30

knowledge that I was told at the time it was

47:32

happening. So if what

47:34

I'm saying is if, again, the first trial, we

47:36

just kind of can't consider it for, in terms of like, for

47:38

appellate reasons, the appeal

47:41

is connected to what happened at the second trial. So

47:44

if at the second trial, all the sexual, all the evidence

47:47

about the sexual abuse was allowed in like it was

47:49

at the first trial. And that cousin once

47:51

again testified, would this letter have

47:54

made any kind of significant difference in addition

47:56

to that testimony and all the other evidence that was presented?

47:58

That's the question. But here. Because none

48:00

of it was allowed I can actually see

48:03

the appellate court saying but how is that fair?

48:05

Well, I don't know. I was gonna ask this is not fair girl No,

48:09

I know it's it's actually disgusting because

48:11

nobody is saying that they didn't

48:13

do it Nobody is saying that they shouldn't

48:16

have done it. They're saying they

48:18

feared for their lives Right because

48:21

you know, they had finally said

48:24

if you don't stop this we're gonna expose

48:26

the family because Eric was on

48:28

his way to UCLA and And

48:31

Jose said JK

48:34

you're staying home. You're not going to the dorm

48:36

So Eric who had continued to be

48:38

raped by his dad up until the

48:41

age of 18 Was like Lyle

48:44

I have no way out and he hadn't told

48:46

his brother He had kept this

48:48

secret from his brother and that's when

48:51

Lyle finally was like, oh my

48:53

god He's still doing this. So they feared

48:55

he feared for his life.

48:57

So here's the problem facts don't matter in these

49:00

proceedings What happens is if if

49:02

in the second trial the judges like none of this

49:04

stuff is allowed You're not allowed a defense what

49:06

happened it then you're allowed to file a direct appeal

49:09

Which appeals the judges rulings

49:12

like so the direct appeals are like the judge

49:14

got all these things wrong He ruled wrong on these

49:16

motions blah blah blah They've done that they've

49:18

appealed these issues the fact that the judge didn't allow this

49:20

and all the way up to the California Supreme Court And

49:22

the California Supreme Court said nope. We're

49:25

upholding conviction

49:26

that's not the kind of issue you can bring up at a habeas habeas

49:29

is just about new evidence and I

49:32

Mean, I just don't know I'm

49:34

saying that you know The way courts were

49:36

if they want to do it They'll find a way to they'll find

49:38

the law to make it happen, but I can just

49:40

easily see this being denied I

49:43

really can you don't think that the allegations

49:45

of the two members of Manudo having

49:48

been sexually assaulted by the

49:50

same man Ha is

49:53

enough evidence or this letter

49:56

saying that here is written

49:58

documented evidence because the prosecution

50:01

was saying, oh, they got their cousins to say

50:03

that multiple cousins, multiple

50:05

family members said that, but this piece of paper,

50:09

don't you think that holds more weight in

50:11

showing a history of abuse?

50:14

I guess what I'm trying to understand is

50:16

if they weren't, I, Robin, I think you were trying

50:18

to explain this, but I'm trying to connect the dots.

50:21

So if the

50:23

habeas is about new evidence pertaining

50:26

to that trial, but the abuse wasn't

50:28

in that trial, are you saying that that means

50:30

that this evidence is not even related? Well,

50:33

that's the thing. I mean, like, it's kind of

50:34

a procedural issue right here, right?

50:37

Like it's

50:37

like, it's not even about the substance of those

50:39

letters. But I could be

50:41

wrong. I mean, like, you know,

50:43

I could be wrong in terms of how, but I'm just, look,

50:47

and the other thing is, this is like, when

50:49

you talk about letters, I mean, you want to talk about letters? We got

50:51

letters in this case, we have contemporaneous

50:53

letters from an alibi witness who's like,

50:55

I was with a non and I wrote letters. And you know what the prosecution

50:58

said? They said, Oh, he had, he made her write those letters

51:00

or their forged or whatever. So

51:02

there's a million ways a prosecutor could

51:04

refute that. I just don't

51:07

know how the court's going

51:09

to look at

51:10

new evidence

51:12

related. If, if

51:15

the basis of that evidence was just like not even

51:17

admissible at trial, like I'm just

51:19

a little confused about that. And I, you

51:21

know, I'm sure there's other lawyers who know better than me, California

51:24

attorneys, certainly. But look,

51:26

I hope it works. You know, a lot of times with

51:28

these, with these post conviction appeals, you just

51:30

throw in stuff at the wall and hope something

51:32

sticks.

51:33

Well, let me ask you this. So

51:35

you're saying so yes, because in their

51:37

appeals, the appeal said

51:39

that no errors were made, right?

51:41

No, no errors in the trial

51:44

were made. But 30 years out,

51:48

how do we not know now

51:51

that how do we not consider the

51:53

psychological ramifications

51:55

of abuse, the betrayal,

51:58

the fear, especially

52:00

when it comes at the hands of the

52:02

people that are to protect

52:05

you. Like, don't we know more

52:07

about the human condition and

52:10

how the mind works and how trauma affects

52:12

us to say that his

52:15

ruling of not letting any of that

52:17

abuse in was actually

52:19

wrong? LaRabbi can answer the legal part because

52:22

I don't know the details, but yes,

52:24

in a sense, like that's what I see in all these post-conviction

52:28

reviews all the time is the

52:30

junk science saying there's new science now. There's

52:33

new science with shaken baby syndrome and arson

52:35

and all of that. So a lot of cases do

52:37

get reviewed based on new

52:39

science. Now, I don't know if this

52:42

was a new science, Rabia.

52:44

Their conviction did not rest on any

52:47

kind of scientific evidence showing that they were

52:49

or were not abused. I mean, the whole issue of abuse

52:51

didn't exist at the trial. Definitely, yeah. That's

52:54

the problem. That's the real problem. And they've already

52:57

appealed the fact that the judge didn't allow

52:59

it, right? They went

53:00

through the direct appeal through the state courts and

53:02

said, they

53:04

kind of exhausted that issue is what I'm saying.

53:07

And I don't know if

53:09

this is now in front of the

53:10

Superior Court of

53:13

California.

53:13

I don't know now if

53:17

this would fly procedurally. I'm

53:19

just not sure. I could be wrong. But if

53:22

their lawyer believes they have

53:24

the legal grounds, then maybe

53:26

they do. I would argue that that

53:29

is new scientific evidence. I

53:31

would argue that we didn't know the mental,

53:34

the physical implications of

53:36

continual sexual

53:39

assault. I used

53:41

a

53:42

toothbrush. You'd

53:44

have a tube of Vaseline and

53:48

he just played with me. Did

53:50

you do something to your brother? What

53:59

did you do?

54:06

I took him out to the woods. Whenever

54:12

I felt, I don't

54:15

know, I took a

54:17

toothbrush also and I played

54:19

with Eric in

54:21

the same way. I'm

54:26

sorry.

54:31

But

54:55

once again,

54:57

you keep referring to

54:59

the first trial. None

55:10

of this happened at the second trial. That's

55:12

the problem, is that there's nothing to attack

55:14

because it didn't even exist in the second trial. The

55:17

second thing is the reason a court would not consider this new

55:19

evidence is because this was not used

55:21

to convict them. When

55:25

you are filing a post-conviction appeal and you have new

55:28

science that shows that what was

55:30

used to

55:30

convict these boys was bullshit,

55:33

like bite mark evidence or blood

55:34

splatter evidence or whatever, hair

55:37

matching evidence, all this ballistic stuff

55:39

that we know is bullshit now. If

55:42

something was presented as scientific evidence and used

55:44

in a conviction, you can then try to attack

55:46

that conviction years later with new science.

55:49

The issue doesn't

55:52

exist. Pretend the first trial

55:54

didn't happen because that's what we have to actually do. So

55:57

you're dealing with a trial in which none of this existed.

55:59

Yeah, so can they say like,

56:02

it should have been let in? Or can

56:05

they still like, I guess I'm just hung up on, can

56:07

they even bring it up because it wasn't ruled

56:09

on it? It's not it doesn't exist. This

56:12

is what I'm not sure about because the the

56:14

they've already they have already appealed the fact that wasn't

56:16

allowed in they did that when they appeal the conviction

56:18

the direct the direct appeal is what this

56:21

is a post

56:21

conviction appeal in which you bring the evidence.

56:22

The direct appeal is like the judge got this wrong,

56:24

you just got this wrong. They tried that and they lost

56:27

all those appeals. I'm gonna

56:29

for you guys, I'm gonna go to where it says evidence

56:31

used in trial because I want to

56:34

explain to our

56:36

listeners, the evidence that was

56:38

used in the first trial that was not

56:41

included in the second just to give

56:43

you a picture because it's not just stories

56:46

of abuse. We're also talking

56:48

about medical records. There

56:51

was there was a record

56:53

when Eric was seven years old and

56:55

an inexplicable injury to

56:57

the back of his throat. Oh, and

56:59

Dr. Carrie English testified

57:02

that this type of injury is an indication

57:05

of oral copulation in children.

57:08

And now dentists are trained

57:10

to look for this injury in children

57:13

to be able to detect and

57:15

report abuse not allowed

57:18

confessions that the boys made

57:20

to their family.

57:21

Their cousin Diane was

57:23

told by Lyle at nine that

57:26

he was quote afraid of his

57:29

dad. Jeff, I have an audio clip

57:31

here, but I'll say it right now, afraid

57:34

that his dad was going to come in his room. And

57:37

his dad had been touched him

57:39

and his dad had been touching each other down

57:41

there. When I'll told me about the abuse,

57:44

he was

57:45

eight years old at the time. One

57:47

night I was in my room

57:50

changing the sheets on my bed and Lyle came

57:53

in saying that he

57:55

was afraid to sleep in his own bed because

57:57

his father and him had

57:59

been touching each other. down there

58:01

and I went upstairs and that city

58:03

by her demeanor I could tell that she

58:06

was not believing any of this. That was

58:08

straight

58:08

to his cousin. Again the cousin

58:11

Andy that testified about

58:13

his dad massaging his genitals.

58:16

Also the testimony of their

58:18

cousins Alan and Kathleen

58:20

who spent the summers at the Menendez

58:22

home and testified that

58:24

he would take the boys into their

58:26

room and forbid the cousins

58:29

from going down the hall would hear

58:31

cries and groans coming from

58:33

the bedroom and that kitty would

58:36

turn the TV volume on high

58:38

to stop them from hearing

58:40

anything. They also testified

58:42

those same cousins that Jose

58:45

and the boys took showers together. Also

58:48

not admitted I'm just trying to get everyone's

58:50

mind around it. They also

58:52

that cousin Diane testified

58:55

that kitty would go to the bathroom

58:58

and help Lyle shower when he was 14 years old

59:00

and all of those

59:04

expert testimonies I

59:06

said at the beginning.

59:08

I just can't wrap my head around it. I

59:10

see what you're saying from a legal sense. I

59:12

just don't understand how

59:14

there's not a way to say we have epically

59:17

let these people down. They have served

59:20

their time. Like where is

59:22

this judge? Can I talk to him? I'll tell

59:24

you what I think. I mean

59:27

and again look I mean I'm sure they have whole legal team and

59:30

you have to strategize sometimes. You know you have to say

59:32

we could file this. These are the things we could file and

59:35

decide which one you're going to try first right and you try

59:37

the one. The habeas is what I would

59:39

try first. Get them a new trial. That's your best

59:41

bet because at a new trial they could probably just be completely

59:43

acquitted right. If that didn't

59:45

work then what I would think is that this

59:48

kind of evidence

59:49

okay I'm just let's just let's say this evidence

59:52

this new evidence was actually presented at the trial. The

59:54

best case scenario in that case would not

59:56

be that they would not be convicted of anything they might be

59:58

convicted of manslaughter. That's the best case scenario.

1:00:01

They killed them. They would not have just walked out.

1:00:03

They definitely killed them So I think this

1:00:05

could be the basis for example for emotion for

1:00:08

a resentencing or a new sentence or

1:00:10

reduced that something like that I think might

1:00:14

Might be more possible with this kind of new evidence.

1:00:16

I don't think that this evidence would

1:00:19

get is gonna get a mini trial I just don't think so. Do

1:00:21

you think they should that they should get a new

1:00:23

trial? Yeah, a thousand percent. Of course They

1:00:25

should this was fundamentally They

1:00:27

they did not they they are duped their due

1:00:29

process. They were deprived of due process They did not get

1:00:31

to present a defense at all. It's shocking

1:00:34

and what year was the Direct

1:00:36

appeal do we know? Oh, we know baggy.

1:00:38

Hold on. Let me go to the appeal What

1:00:41

color is that? Yeah, what color

1:00:43

is that? The first

1:00:45

appeal was filed june 1st 1996 that

1:00:48

was after the conviction before the sentencing

1:00:52

And then the california court

1:00:54

of appeals Held up

1:00:56

that conviction again in february 27 1998 and

1:01:00

so that particular ruling in

1:01:02

may yeah, so that real ruling i'm

1:01:04

just going to read exactly what it says the court's opinion

1:01:06

established No new precedent and found that judge

1:01:09

weisberg made no errors in a series of controversial

1:01:11

rulings, right? That limited the defense testimony So

1:01:14

they have appealed the fact that the the judge did

1:01:16

not allow them to bring in the defense

1:01:19

They lost on both appellate levels. They lost

1:01:21

in the california court of appeals in the california supreme court

1:01:23

on this particular issue They've exhausted that issue.

1:01:26

I object I

1:01:28

don't wish it worked like that. I

1:01:30

object judge ellen. Yeah, it

1:01:33

it's true. It Infuriating

1:01:36

it is ellen. This is why i'm working

1:01:37

out of a bar right now. This is

1:01:39

what you know

1:01:42

I know and those fucking prosecutors

1:01:45

that were denying appeals. This

1:01:47

one really pissed me off the prosecutors Were

1:01:51

absolutely disgusting because the way

1:01:54

I watched both boys entire

1:01:56

testimony From beginning to end.

1:01:59

I could not turn it off while I was researching

1:02:01

this. And the detail,

1:02:04

the emotion, you just,

1:02:06

number one, you can't fake that. The fact

1:02:08

that they absolutely denied the abuse

1:02:11

is not only a gross miscarriage

1:02:13

of justice, it is just inhumane

1:02:16

and cruel. Like the prosecution

1:02:19

went as far to challenge because Eric

1:02:21

had said something like, he

1:02:24

kept the jar of Vaseline by

1:02:26

the bed, right, as lubrication

1:02:29

because he did, you

1:02:31

know, have penetration and it

1:02:34

hurt him. And then the prosecutors

1:02:37

were like, well, maybe you just had

1:02:39

blisters on your hand from playing tennis.

1:02:44

Yeah. How, how did you

1:02:47

not just like set

1:02:49

fire to the courtroom when somebody

1:02:51

says that? And I just

1:02:54

don't think in 2023, that

1:02:57

kind of behavior would fly. I just

1:03:00

don't, I can't imagine it. No,

1:03:02

it wouldn't. And that's why I was asked. So the direct appeal

1:03:04

is always the first appeal filed. So

1:03:06

that's why I knew it was going to be older.

1:03:08

And like, like, that just makes no sense to me that

1:03:10

like, we didn't even have 30 years

1:03:13

ago, this level of understanding.

1:03:15

So like, how is that even fair that the appeal

1:03:19

it's just

1:03:19

great. It's just, I yeah, that I'm pure. I'm

1:03:21

really curious to see how this is going to play out. I

1:03:23

wrote them too and told them I support

1:03:26

them both and just Oh, that's great. I

1:03:28

thought about that. Yeah. Did they write back?

1:03:31

They wrote back to Rosie O'Donnell. They did

1:03:33

not write back to me. So, you

1:03:35

know, I'm not Rosie O'Donnell. Well, let

1:03:37

me ask you this, Maggie. I mean,

1:03:39

there's no real mystery in this

1:03:41

case, necessarily, right? There's not a lot

1:03:43

to solve. I feel like everybody's kind of on the same page,

1:03:45

looking at this through a 2023 lens. And I don't

1:03:47

know, Ellen, how did you feel about this? Well, you were,

1:03:50

were you were like three when this came out and how old you were your

1:03:52

tiny baby? I was two. Yeah. Yes.

1:03:56

I was three years from being born. Well,

1:03:58

let me just be okay. Let's say before. you started your

1:04:00

research and watching the documentary and watching

1:04:02

the testimony, did you

1:04:05

have a different

1:04:07

idea about this case? Did you think of these killer

1:04:09

boys? I had an

1:04:11

idea that they

1:04:13

deserved a new trial, but researching

1:04:16

and hearing the testimony, it's

1:04:20

an injustice, actually. It is all

1:04:22

an actual injustice. I think

1:04:24

that judge was despicable.

1:04:27

I think it was so unfair

1:04:30

to not... Lyle didn't

1:04:32

even testify in the second one. Only

1:04:35

Eric did, and they wouldn't even let his testimony

1:04:38

from the first trial go to the

1:04:40

second trial. What are we trying to do here?

1:04:42

Are we trying to have justice be served?

1:04:45

It seems like I think

1:04:49

this is one of the most unfair

1:04:51

things I have ever seen because they

1:04:54

were prevented from giving

1:04:56

the jury the whole story. If you

1:05:00

were to get the whole story and you were to say,

1:05:02

you know what? I still think they deserve

1:05:04

life in prison. I

1:05:07

don't agree with you, but I have to accept that.

1:05:10

It's like if I ask you something, Maggie,

1:05:12

and I'm like, just tell me what happened,

1:05:14

but don't tell me any circumstances around

1:05:17

it. There's always a circumstance. These

1:05:19

kids feared for their lives. A couple of days before

1:05:22

they proceeded to murder

1:05:24

their family, their parents took them shark

1:05:26

boat fishing, and they thought

1:05:29

they were going to get killed that day.

1:05:31

Even the captain said the boys

1:05:33

didn't leave the bow of the boat. They

1:05:36

clung onto each other. There

1:05:38

was no interaction. The boys were convinced

1:05:41

they were going to throw them out to sea and kill

1:05:43

them because Lyle said, I'm

1:05:46

going to expose all of this because

1:05:48

you're not letting Eric go to college. Eric

1:05:51

had never told Lyle, and Lyle was ready to

1:05:53

blow it up. Then

1:05:55

Jose and Kitty lost their minds.

1:06:00

They're 100% gonna kill us. Yeah.

1:06:03

Because they were multi-millionaires.

1:06:06

They had a place in Beverly Hills society.

1:06:08

You think they want them uncovering the fact

1:06:11

that they were raping their kids

1:06:13

their entire year? Well,

1:06:15

I think they knew, you know, obviously

1:06:17

with the Minuto stuff too, I mean, a lot, many

1:06:20

of those boys were sexually assaulted, not

1:06:22

just Roy Rosello. They

1:06:25

knew it was going to be a house of cards,

1:06:26

but it was going to be. There

1:06:29

was no hiding that.

1:06:30

Yeah. So why wouldn't

1:06:32

those boys, knowing what

1:06:34

their father is capable of, knowing

1:06:37

what they've done to them, those

1:06:40

boys, and also Jose was

1:06:42

like a philanderer. He had women.

1:06:44

He had men. Kitty turned a blind

1:06:46

eye. Everyone, everyone

1:06:49

was scared of Jose. People he worked

1:06:51

with, people he worked for. He was

1:06:53

a maniacal, scary man. Why

1:06:56

would those boys, after being

1:06:59

assaulted the way they were by the people

1:07:01

that are supposed to protect them, think

1:07:03

that they were not capable of killing them? Yeah.

1:07:06

Ellen, I'm sure you know of prosecutorial

1:07:09

immunity. Tell everyone about it,

1:07:11

Maggie. I'm a lawyer. No, I know

1:07:13

that. That's why I said immunity. I'm sure

1:07:15

you know. Yeah. Basically,

1:07:18

what is going to happen? Let's assume they get

1:07:20

a new trial and they're, you know,

1:07:22

acquitted, whatever the decision's going

1:07:25

to be, manslaughter, time served. What

1:07:28

is going to happen to the original prosecutor

1:07:30

and judge who, you know, I think a lot

1:07:32

of us can agree there was some really egregious things

1:07:35

happening. What's going to happen? Nothing. Because

1:07:38

we have this really exciting thing called prosecutorial immunity,

1:07:41

where basically police, prosecutors,

1:07:44

judges, most law enforcement

1:07:47

gets a pass when they

1:07:50

commit wrongdoings. Yeah.

1:07:52

Well, I'll say this. You know,

1:07:54

the interesting thing about that is even that

1:07:56

you can't even get to that issue and lessen until

1:07:59

you can.

1:08:00

Make a claim of actual practice

1:08:02

on misconduct

1:08:02

misconduct like they did something and

1:08:04

there actually isn't misconduct here What

1:08:07

they did was they used the

1:08:09

law to keep keep out

1:08:11

what they wanted to keep out So they had a foot up at the trial

1:08:14

and they just it's not like

1:08:15

Miss conduct would have been like they have some some

1:08:18

witnesses that they hit and the descent

1:08:20

Here they didn't let them they didn't let the

1:08:22

witnesses testify No, but

1:08:25

they did not have the women like a Brady violation

1:08:27

or something like that Right, like right. So if they if

1:08:30

they if they went to the witnesses outside the courtroom and

1:08:32

said don't testify I'll give you a whatever xyz

1:08:35

That's an illegal way of preventing them from not

1:08:37

testifying if they just went to the judge and

1:08:39

said I am moving to prevent You

1:08:41

know these this testimony and the judge says

1:08:44

okay. That's a completely legal way of

1:08:46

preventing it. So

1:08:48

um, they're even in this case, I mean

1:08:51

immunity like There

1:08:53

all these prosecutors are pride judges at this point anyways But

1:08:56

I just realized that I never actually got to finish my question. I

1:08:59

I started off saying Maggie There's no mystery here But

1:09:01

what so then what is it about this case that

1:09:03

like you're like, this is the one I have to do I I

1:09:06

really want to talk about this case. Is it because of the the

1:09:08

the incredible injustice in it? I think because the

1:09:10

incredible injustice I think because

1:09:13

this is still a topic that I think

1:09:15

a lot of people um Many

1:09:19

people I mean, you know, we live in new york city and we

1:09:21

live in metro regions But i'm sure

1:09:23

there are people in this country. You still don't believe that

1:09:25

boys can be raped Um, I

1:09:27

mean we literally had politicians calling it legitimate

1:09:30

rapes a few years ago, right about women Um,

1:09:33

so I do think it's very important, you know, this

1:09:35

case is one that everyone knows It's

1:09:38

it's really one of those kind of household crime

1:09:40

names and now we're seeing Uh

1:09:43

a lot happen that people can learn from people can learn

1:09:46

about what a habeas is people can learn that they're

1:09:48

not getting The full story in trials people,

1:09:50

you know can learn about the psychological effects

1:09:53

of abuse Um, I think that's

1:09:55

why I really wanted to talk about it. I think it's

1:09:58

fascinating the psychology. I think I think

1:10:00

hearing them talk now is also

1:10:02

really interesting. I

1:10:04

think sharing Roy

1:10:07

Rosello's story is important.

1:10:09

Telling people to watch the documentary so they can hear Roy's

1:10:12

story, he deserves to be heard as well. I

1:10:15

think there's a lot here that I wanted

1:10:17

to talk about. Something that

1:10:19

really stood out to me when I was

1:10:22

rewatching the testimonies.

1:10:25

And I don't know if this is intentional or I don't

1:10:27

know if this is a sign of the times, but

1:10:30

they kept saying, when your

1:10:32

dad had sex with you.

1:10:35

I am

1:10:38

a cold running person, I am always

1:10:40

cold, and the way my body

1:10:42

inflamed

1:10:45

itself when they kept saying

1:10:47

have sex with rather than

1:10:49

assault or rape all

1:10:52

the time. And that puts

1:10:54

things in somebody's mind. And again,

1:10:56

pushing that narrative that Eric

1:10:59

was gay, that he had homosexual

1:11:01

urges. I just kept

1:11:03

saying this would never happen

1:11:05

now. It would never happen now.

1:11:09

And you're right, hearing them talk now, Maggie,

1:11:12

they are pillars of

1:11:14

the prisons. Which by the way, also something

1:11:17

very disgusting was intentionally separating

1:11:19

them.

1:11:20

Oh yeah, that was terrible.

1:11:22

For 20 years, they sent them to

1:11:24

two opposite places.

1:11:27

They could only write letters and they finally

1:11:29

reunited them. After 20 years,

1:11:31

they hadn't seen each other. I got chills

1:11:33

just even saying that. But

1:11:36

it just seemed like that

1:11:38

spoiled rich kid narrative

1:11:41

that they got on. And

1:11:43

listen, they were like, you know, they

1:11:46

were kind of like little shits and they had done

1:11:48

some robbery and Lyle

1:11:50

was kicked out of Princeton for plagiarism.

1:11:53

They were troubled kids. They were kids acting

1:11:55

out. You know, you think people

1:11:57

have everything when they have

1:11:59

money.

1:12:00

But they were not likeable characters.

1:12:03

You know, that's funny too because I know, Rabia,

1:12:05

you know Marty Tancleff. Marty

1:12:08

Tancleff is an exoneree and it was also

1:12:10

a spoiled rich kid

1:12:12

story murdering his parents.

1:12:13

And Marty wasn't particularly a likeable

1:12:16

character either back then. He was a

1:12:17

spoiled rich kid.

1:12:18

So it's really interesting how the narrative

1:12:21

gets twisted. And he was 16. I

1:12:23

mean, what can you know about it, you know, like the

1:12:25

personality or character of somebody that gets killed? I

1:12:28

think it's really important for people to really

1:12:30

watch out for these narratives because

1:12:32

that's two cases where that was not

1:12:35

the case. I mean, I have said for

1:12:37

a long time that, you know, the thing about court is

1:12:39

and the media in general, but certainly inside court,

1:12:41

the best story wins. It's not,

1:12:43

it's never about the actual truth because you're not getting

1:12:45

the full truth. Both sides are fighting

1:12:47

to keep out certain things.

1:12:49

And that's how it is. And

1:12:52

that's why like decades later as we like

1:12:54

discover all this new stuff, I

1:12:56

mean, what I love

1:12:58

seeing from Ellen is like the outrage

1:13:01

you're, and I'm watching the comments

1:13:04

of our, you know, our star witnesses, the outrage

1:13:06

they feel

1:13:06

that this new evidence wouldn't rise

1:13:09

to the level. But

1:13:11

in post-convision work, you can have new DNA

1:13:13

evidence that shows that a serial killer

1:13:15

did it and a court's going to

1:13:17

say, nope, not good enough. Prostificators

1:13:20

are going to say, nope, not good enough. I mean, like when you

1:13:22

have sound, actual forensic evidence linking

1:13:25

a murder to somebody else and that

1:13:27

person can't get a new trial, the outrage

1:13:29

is valid. And believe me, there's

1:13:31

a lot of reasons to have it because this is what, this

1:13:34

is a deep

1:13:35

problem in our system. We get stuck.

1:13:37

How do we fix it, Rabia? I mean,

1:13:40

the way to fix it, these are generally legislative

1:13:42

fixes, right? Like so, like you, if

1:13:44

we can,

1:13:45

but it's like a state by state fight. For

1:13:48

example, in Maryland, we were

1:13:50

lucky enough to pass the Juvenile Restoration Act a few years

1:13:53

ago, right? That allowed juveniles who

1:13:55

were

1:13:56

convicted and sentenced to life without parole

1:13:59

to a apply for resentencing.

1:14:01

It's a new law that just gives juveniles another

1:14:04

shot in court. Right?

1:14:05

So you need my podcast.

1:14:07

That's what it's about. It's an

1:14:09

amazing, amazing podcast. So,

1:14:12

you know, these are legislative fixes that you say,

1:14:14

okay, if you have these kinds of issues and then you

1:14:18

have 30 years later, a whole new understanding

1:14:20

of certain things like trauma, like can we

1:14:22

develop, can we legislate a

1:14:24

basis for a new appeal, like in state courts?

1:14:27

There's no reason you can't do that. Can we just come up with

1:14:29

a whole new reason that will allow

1:14:31

people to get their foot back in the door

1:14:32

in the appellate courts? Yeah.

1:14:35

I mean, sadly, I know that sounds like a really

1:14:38

long shot, but it's not, it can happen. You can make legislative

1:14:40

changes to give people more chances. Let me

1:14:42

ask you a question that we posed in the crash

1:14:44

course. What conversation would we

1:14:46

be having now if it was the

1:14:48

Menendez sisters?

1:14:51

You know what? I actually don't think it would

1:14:53

have made a difference. I'll tell you why. Because

1:14:57

we have seen how female

1:15:00

victim survivors

1:15:00

of rape have been treated in court as

1:15:02

well. It becomes about how

1:15:04

they dress and were they asking for

1:15:07

it? And, you know, if you had two young girls

1:15:09

who were also rich and spoiled and

1:15:12

good looking,

1:15:13

and I

1:15:14

mean, I don't think female

1:15:16

victims of sexual

1:15:17

assault necessarily garner much

1:15:19

more sympathy than male

1:15:21

victims do. 30 years ago, they

1:15:23

certainly didn't. Maybe now I don't know. They don't know

1:15:25

it. Same time period. Same thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So

1:15:27

I don't know if it would have, I don't think it would have made

1:15:29

a difference actually. See, I feel like

1:15:32

the court of public

1:15:34

opinion would have been

1:15:36

different. Again,

1:15:39

with the keeping all

1:15:41

of the facts the same, you know, the getting kicked

1:15:43

out of Princeton, the burglary. I

1:15:46

think there is some bit of,

1:15:49

you can qualify that, right? A

1:15:51

man shouldn't hurt a woman,

1:15:54

but a man's not going to hurt another man. That's

1:15:57

not it. Boy

1:16:00

can't be raped.

1:16:01

I just feel like it, I

1:16:03

feel like, you're absolutely right, Rabia, of course

1:16:06

women don't get their respect and they

1:16:08

get slut shamed and they get- Well,

1:16:10

and sexualized. I imagine, I imagine

1:16:13

if there are two beautiful young white girls,

1:16:15

for which you know what I mean, they would have been sexualized in the media.

1:16:18

If their name, somebody's name was Hillary, it would have

1:16:20

been like Hot Hillary enters the courtroom.

1:16:23

I mean like that's how we- Like Amanda Knox.

1:16:25

Right, exactly. That's just how I

1:16:27

think it would have gone. I mean,

1:16:29

because at the end of the day, all the people are thinking is they killed

1:16:31

their parents. I mean like that's

1:16:34

in the style, like you can't get around that fact. And

1:16:37

if they killed their parents, like that's like the kind of

1:16:39

the worst thing a person could possibly do. So

1:16:42

it just means everything else about the character is probably also

1:16:44

deeply flawed. I mean, I don't know. It's

1:16:46

like, it's, you know how hard it is to get a rape conviction?

1:16:49

You know, it's hard. I mean, and in this case, it

1:16:51

wasn't even a rape, it wasn't a, it's not like they

1:16:53

were,

1:16:54

this was not a trial to prove

1:16:56

that the father was raping anybody, right? But if

1:16:58

they had, if they had gone to the police, these boys had

1:17:00

gone to the police or if they were daughters and gone to the police

1:17:03

to turn their father in instead of killing

1:17:05

him, I don't even know if they could have gotten a conviction.

1:17:08

What do you think Maggie? If they went to the police,

1:17:10

they wouldn't have been believed. I mean,

1:17:13

if they went to the police prior

1:17:15

to killing them saying this is happening

1:17:17

to us, they wouldn't have been believed. And they probably- 23 may

1:17:20

be.

1:17:20

23 may be. And that is

1:17:23

what they said. You know, when they said,

1:17:25

why didn't you leave? Why didn't you tell

1:17:27

somebody? Both

1:17:29

Lyle and Eric said we did, but

1:17:31

my dad is powerful.

1:17:34

He got Eric off from those burglary

1:17:36

charges by making a couple calls and writing

1:17:38

some checks. He's like, they burgled

1:17:41

homes. They stole like $100,000 worth

1:17:44

of stuff in Calabasas and

1:17:46

he got him off. He's powerful. He's

1:17:48

rich. And people are scared of him.

1:17:51

They were also told no one would believe

1:17:53

them. They believed no one would believe. And

1:17:55

then any, for everyone that knew, never

1:17:58

helped.

1:17:58

And they knew that the old-

1:17:59

way out

1:18:01

was if they were gonna help

1:18:02

themselves, which ends up being

1:18:04

what they did, but

1:18:06

they were let down by everybody. Every single

1:18:08

person let them down in their lives. No

1:18:11

one came to save them. Yeah, you're absolutely

1:18:13

right. Let me ask you a question. If

1:18:15

they hadn't done that spending

1:18:18

spree, okay, just to give an idea.

1:18:20

So the brothers spending spree started

1:18:23

four days after the murder and they

1:18:25

were tapping into Jose's life insurance.

1:18:28

They spent about a million

1:18:30

dollars in a six-month

1:18:32

period of time. They

1:18:35

charged their cards, they bought

1:18:37

Rolex's, Porsche's, clothing.

1:18:39

Lyle bought a

1:18:41

restaurant. He

1:18:44

bought like a restaurant called...

1:18:46

I never knew he bought a restaurant. That's crazy. Yeah, it

1:18:49

was called Chuck's Spring Cafe

1:18:51

and it was like a really popular snack

1:18:53

shop at like the Princeton area

1:18:56

and he paid I think half a million

1:18:58

dollars for it somewhere around there and

1:19:01

then he changed

1:19:03

the name and they're like, why are you changing the

1:19:05

name? This is a Princeton favorite, whatever.

1:19:08

And they were just acting absolutely

1:19:11

wild. Do you think if they hadn't

1:19:13

have done that for the six-month

1:19:16

period of time because they weren't being investigated

1:19:19

at all. So it should be

1:19:21

said, we'll go over

1:19:23

a lot more of these facts on a couple more

1:19:25

things on our Patreon. But

1:19:28

for those of you who don't know, the way

1:19:30

that the Menendez brothers were

1:19:32

brought into custody and investigated

1:19:35

in the first place was because

1:19:37

Eric confessed to the murders

1:19:40

to his psychiatrist, Dr.

1:19:42

Jerome Ozell and that was on October

1:19:44

31st, 1989. And the reason he went and talked to a psychiatrist

1:19:50

was he was having suicidal ideation,

1:19:52

keeping this secret,

1:19:54

killing his parents and then he

1:19:56

told Lyle immediately that he

1:19:59

confessed. Lyle threatened

1:20:02

the doctor, basically

1:20:04

said he would kill him if he told anyone.

1:20:08

And Ozelle didn't go straight

1:20:10

to the police. He had them come in a

1:20:12

couple more times. And then Ozelle's

1:20:15

ex-girlfriend found

1:20:17

out about it. Her name was Doodelon

1:20:19

Smythe, I think her name was. And

1:20:22

she's the one who went to the police. And

1:20:25

then they were brought into custody

1:20:28

and they were arrested separately.

1:20:31

Lyle was arrested March 8th, 1990. And

1:20:34

then Eric turned himself in three days

1:20:36

later on March 11th.

1:20:39

So that is how they came to be arrested.

1:20:41

So without that confession,

1:20:44

who knows how much longer it would have gone. But

1:20:46

do you think if their actions weren't as

1:20:49

sort of pompous and gregarious as they were?

1:20:52

They wouldn't have such a bad outlook

1:20:54

from the court and from the judge

1:20:56

and use that kind of gross

1:20:59

behavior to prosecute them. I mean, they

1:21:01

would have had to have a different motive.

1:21:04

I don't know what that would have

1:21:05

been. I mean, the motive here, I mean, it

1:21:08

was presented, it was, they killed him for

1:21:10

the money. Right. That's what I mean.

1:21:12

They would have a different motive. Yeah. And

1:21:14

the jury bought it. It's just like, yeah, like look at how extravagant

1:21:16

they are. The first time they're doing this, like killing all this

1:21:19

money, which I'm guessing a lot of teenagers would

1:21:21

probably do because

1:21:23

they have no idea like how to deal with all this money.

1:21:26

It's undisputed that they killed

1:21:28

them. Like they found the weapons, right?

1:21:30

They bought the guns themselves. You know, this

1:21:32

is how young people

1:21:34

are not real smart when they're doing this stuff like this. Right.

1:21:38

And,

1:21:38

you know, all the jury already

1:21:40

knew. I mean, there was it was just about like,

1:21:43

why did they do it? And if there's no self defense argument

1:21:46

made, like none of it

1:21:47

matters unless like in the moment,

1:21:50

they could have been like, unless they could have argued that in that

1:21:52

moment, their lives were in danger. That's

1:21:54

the only possible self defense. I think they could have raised

1:21:57

without the sexual assault. Because even,

1:21:59

even Even when the sexual assault

1:22:01

evidence was brought in,

1:22:03

that's what people were, the response was, well,

1:22:05

they could have left. It's not like he was in the middle.

1:22:07

It was like right then and there, they had

1:22:10

a threat to their lives, right? They

1:22:12

had other options in terms of how to escape

1:22:14

this stuff.

1:22:16

People don't understand, well, they

1:22:18

didn't understand then how that trauma works and

1:22:21

affects you. And they're both

1:22:23

been sentenced to life

1:22:25

sentences. Do

1:22:27

you know, Ellen, in your research, did

1:22:30

you come across whether or not there

1:22:32

was any attempt to get a death sentence because I believe...

1:22:34

Yes.

1:22:35

Right? Yes.

1:22:37

In the second one, they deliberated

1:22:39

whether or not it would be the death penalty

1:22:42

or life in prison without the possibility of parole.

1:22:44

What do you think about

1:22:47

Lyle's jury being hung

1:22:50

six men and six women? That

1:22:53

is fascinating to me. And they were deadlocked.

1:22:56

Nobody was moving. I

1:22:58

read some accounts by some of

1:23:00

the jury members who... They

1:23:03

were female and they just... Nobody

1:23:06

was moving. What do you think about that? Doesn't

1:23:08

surprise

1:23:08

me, actually. That

1:23:10

doesn't surprise me. I think, you know, Robbie,

1:23:12

maybe you could speak to this, but when attorneys do jury selections,

1:23:17

I think they often find that women are

1:23:19

usually more sympathetic in these

1:23:22

instances than men are. And that's not me saying

1:23:24

that. I think that's usually what happens.

1:23:26

It is very interesting to me that

1:23:29

it was so neatly split.

1:23:30

I'm actually a little

1:23:32

bit surprised at that, but I wonder when they

1:23:34

did the vaudeville, which is... That's

1:23:37

when the attorneys on

1:23:39

both sides get to eliminate

1:23:41

potential jurors because, you

1:23:43

know, like, do you know one of the parties?

1:23:45

Do you have any other

1:23:46

kind of compromises that... Something

1:23:48

that might compromise you. And I wonder during

1:23:50

vaudeville, they asked whether anybody

1:23:54

was a survivor or had experienced sexual

1:23:56

assault. I wonder if

1:23:58

they had not done that. I

1:24:01

wonder if there were women in that jury who are like,

1:24:04

they could see the truth of what happened because they

1:24:06

had been on the receiving end of it themselves,

1:24:09

like they had experienced

1:24:09

it themselves. I mean, we know the statistics, six

1:24:12

women,

1:24:12

one of them probably is likely a survivor.

1:24:17

And but is that one

1:24:19

woman able to convince all six women? I don't know. I

1:24:21

also wonder how many of them were mothers. I feel

1:24:23

like when a mother watches that,

1:24:26

you can kind of see the little boys in them. You

1:24:28

know, I don't know. I'm just I'm fascinated.

1:24:31

But Ellen, you said that there were interviews with some of

1:24:33

those female jurors later. And

1:24:36

and what were the kinds of things that they said? Why were they holding

1:24:38

out? Well, this is really interesting.

1:24:40

A lot of them were saying a lot

1:24:42

of the men were saying, if it

1:24:45

was just Jose, but why

1:24:48

did they kill Kitty? Oh, yeah, we

1:24:50

have that. Yeah, we have. Yeah. So

1:24:53

the thing was, Jose was the aggressor.

1:24:57

The boys, number one, absolutely

1:25:00

say that Kitty enabled the behavior,

1:25:03

knew about the behavior. And Lyle

1:25:06

also said that he was

1:25:08

sexually assaulted by his mother,

1:25:11

that she would lay in bed and make

1:25:13

him touch her and

1:25:15

that Kitty could have protected

1:25:18

them and they didn't. So what

1:25:20

they were saying was that they

1:25:22

could. OK, so if your dad did all these

1:25:25

horrible things, you killed

1:25:27

your mom to get the money, though, because

1:25:30

if you would have killed your dad, you were scared of

1:25:32

your dad. Your dad was the power for one. And

1:25:34

he did. He ran the show like,

1:25:36

you know, but Kitty absolutely

1:25:39

enabled it, but they couldn't wrap their head around

1:25:41

that. So why didn't you just kill him

1:25:43

and spare her? Because remember,

1:25:46

when they committed

1:25:48

the acts, when they came in

1:25:50

and killed them, Jose shot

1:25:53

six times. Eric

1:25:55

was the one who shot first, but Lyle is

1:25:57

the one who actually shot the

1:25:59

death. bullets. Kitty

1:26:02

was shot 10 times but

1:26:05

Lyle, they ran out of ammunition

1:26:07

and Kitty was struggling

1:26:10

for her life and

1:26:13

was not dead. And Lyle

1:26:15

went back to the car, got

1:26:18

ammunition and Lyle

1:26:21

shot the final fatal shot to

1:26:24

her face.

1:26:25

That finally killed her. So

1:26:29

that's what made them say,

1:26:31

this is all about money. Yeah.

1:26:33

What do you think about that Maggie? When

1:26:36

you frame it like that you can see how they,

1:26:38

you know, the shot to the face,

1:26:40

going back to the car. How could you say, you

1:26:42

know, it wasn't a moment of what

1:26:45

the defense was trying to say, none of this was planned, you

1:26:47

know, but that that gives a different picture. But

1:26:51

I do know, and you'll probably say this

1:26:53

in your synopsis too, but they had

1:26:55

just found out that Jose was not

1:26:58

allowing Eric to go to college.

1:27:01

That was the thing that had just happened that

1:27:03

kind of was the catalyst. And then Kitty

1:27:05

had said that allegedly said that she

1:27:08

knew to them and that's when they realized

1:27:10

she knew this whole time. There

1:27:12

was a direct catalyst to this

1:27:15

moment of what happened and it was, we

1:27:17

are trapped in this forever.

1:27:20

So I

1:27:21

don't know what was going through their heads when

1:27:23

they shot them 10 times,

1:27:25

went back, reloaded, shot them in the face. I

1:27:27

was never been in that situation, but

1:27:30

there

1:27:31

were catalysts for this moment.

1:27:33

It wasn't out of, you know, it

1:27:35

happened because. I'm curious

1:27:37

as to if the

1:27:39

male jurors

1:27:41

were like, well, that's where we draw the line, you

1:27:43

know, the Kitty part.

1:27:45

How did the female, how come the female jurors saw

1:27:47

that different? Because she enabled

1:27:49

it and she denied it because the

1:27:52

night that Eric finally told Lyle, this

1:27:55

has still been going on. Lyle did

1:27:57

not know because Jose said

1:28:00

I will kill you. I will kill your brother

1:28:02

if you tell anyone and that's

1:28:04

why Lyle really

1:28:07

breaks down in his testimony

1:28:09

because he's like I knew but I didn't

1:28:11

know and so Got

1:28:14

wrenching it is Absolutely

1:28:16

gut-wrenching. So he said I'm

1:28:18

gonna go take care of it So he talked to

1:28:21

Kitty first Lyle talked to Kitty

1:28:23

and Eric remembers hearing the fight

1:28:26

and they were throwing hands So

1:28:29

Lyle wore a hairpiece

1:28:31

like a toupee Because Jose

1:28:34

made him because he didn't want any son of his

1:28:36

having a receding hairline Yeah, Kitty

1:28:38

and him started fighting and Kitty

1:28:40

ripped off his toupee and

1:28:43

Eric was like you wear a toupee Like he

1:28:45

remembers these counts and Kitty

1:28:47

was saying Eric is a liar. He's always

1:28:50

been a liar so then in that

1:28:52

moment Lyle's like and you're a

1:28:54

monster too, mm-hmm and Then

1:28:57

that's when Lyle went to Jose and

1:29:00

said we know everything This

1:29:02

stops or we tell everyone

1:29:05

and then a couple days later was that shark

1:29:07

fishing thing? so this just kept

1:29:10

escalating and what escalated it was

1:29:12

the fear of divulging

1:29:14

these family secrets and Kitty

1:29:17

was in on it all. Yeah. Yeah,

1:29:20

and she's actually assaulted

1:29:21

Lyle. Yeah, I mean I think

1:29:24

to the boys

1:29:26

It was it was like a team

1:29:28

of predators like, you know, they were

1:29:30

in it together Kitty knew

1:29:33

she allowed it but you

1:29:35

know, there's also I think

1:29:37

You know, I don't even see this

1:29:39

as like revenge because you

1:29:41

know, they've both been abusing

1:29:44

Eric all these years,

1:29:45

but I do think

1:29:46

like there was this legitimate fear

1:29:48

that our parents gonna kill us

1:29:50

They're gonna come there's no way out. Yeah,

1:29:52

because what way is out for

1:29:55

the parents if the parents are like they're gonna tell

1:29:57

people Like they're getting old enough now. We

1:29:59

not have the kind of control we had when they were little. I

1:30:02

mean, there's,

1:30:03

they probably saw that we're

1:30:05

gonna end up dead. And you know what? They

1:30:08

might have been right. Yeah, yeah, they might have been

1:30:10

right. I mean, because really a man like

1:30:12

Jose, I mean, like, if he would, if

1:30:14

he had to protect himself, I mean, like, considering

1:30:17

what he was capable of doing, I

1:30:19

don't know if he wouldn't have, I mean, he clearly

1:30:21

thought of his children as disposable. Anyways, I

1:30:24

was gonna say someone else in this chat way earlier

1:30:26

mentioned Laura Richards, and

1:30:28

I really appreciate the work she does on

1:30:30

coercive

1:30:30

control. And she did a six part series

1:30:32

on this case on the boys and, and very

1:30:35

specifically, what happened

1:30:37

that led up to this in terms of coercive

1:30:39

control. And I would suggest people listen to that. It's

1:30:41

really

1:30:43

thought provoking, for sure, to say the

1:30:45

least. Fantastic discrimination. Yeah.

1:30:48

Well,

1:30:49

let's solve this. Let me

1:30:51

ask a series of questions to solve this.

1:30:54

Do we think that Lyle

1:30:57

and Eric Menendez received a fair trial?

1:30:59

No,

1:31:00

absolutely not.

1:31:02

Absolutely not. Do we think

1:31:05

that they should be let off

1:31:08

with time served? In

1:31:10

an ideal world, what would happen in

1:31:13

this next appeal if you could

1:31:16

write the history of the rest of the story? Well, there's

1:31:18

two things, right?

1:31:20

Time served would mean they're still convicted

1:31:22

felons.

1:31:23

That is still on their record. If they

1:31:25

go to trial, sure, they have the chance

1:31:27

of being convicted again. However,

1:31:29

if they win, it's gone.

1:31:32

They are not convicted felons anymore. So it's

1:31:34

like, what is

1:31:35

what? I mean, it would obviously do what

1:31:37

they want. So I

1:31:39

don't know. Do

1:31:40

they just want a lot of people just want to get out? They

1:31:42

just want to live their lives? I mean, you guys are right in their

1:31:44

fifties now. Yeah, trial could take years. And the other

1:31:46

thing is

1:31:49

like in a new trial, a prosecutor

1:31:52

might be able to be like, okay, fine. Like, well,

1:31:54

look, this is what if they

1:31:56

were awarded a new trial, a prosecutor

1:31:57

would have to think, okay, I'm

1:31:59

probably not gonna get them on murder, right? Like, so they'll

1:32:02

be acquitted of that. So then I'd have to present an alternate,

1:32:05

an alternate,

1:32:07

you know, possible charge like manslaughter.

1:32:10

And if they're convicted of manslaughter, well, they've already done

1:32:12

the time for that. My guess is if they

1:32:14

were actually granted a new trial, my guess is they'll be

1:32:16

offered that shitty old Alfred plea, just

1:32:20

so everybody can just be let off the hook. And

1:32:23

it's the fastest way out of prison, basically. And

1:32:25

that's my guess as to what

1:32:27

would go down. I just, I

1:32:29

don't know, the habeas is looking thin to me, but I hope I'm wrong.

1:32:32

Yeah, I hope you're wrong too. I do hope you're wrong. I

1:32:34

was feeling really good about it. I

1:32:36

was like, I don't feel good about it at all. No,

1:32:39

I could be really wrong. And you know what? I'm actually

1:32:42

gonna go and see if I can find some actual legal analysis,

1:32:44

like from a California legal expert about

1:32:47

the habeas, because I could be completely wrong.

1:32:49

I don't know California

1:32:49

law, certainly. I mean, so, but I'm just

1:32:52

speaking in very general terms. Do we

1:32:54

know who their attorneys are? Mark

1:32:56

Garagos. Mark Garagos, the

1:32:58

guard and someone else. Yeah,

1:33:01

Garagos is a good attorney. Listen,

1:33:03

you guys, I'm gonna tell you something.

1:33:06

I wanna trust you with this information. Oh

1:33:08

God, here we go. I'm leaning

1:33:10

in. I'm not actually a lawyer.

1:33:13

But

1:33:15

I wanna scream from

1:33:18

a non-lawyer person.

1:33:20

This is not fair. This

1:33:23

is just not

1:33:23

fair. I was

1:33:26

so invested in this research because I

1:33:28

have never seen somebody say

1:33:30

it's like asking someone

1:33:32

to, if something

1:33:35

takes place over an hour and I give

1:33:37

you three minutes worth of information, make

1:33:39

a decision.

1:33:40

No, I have 57 more minutes

1:33:43

worth of shit to tell you.

1:33:44

It just does not seem fair. I know

1:33:46

this is what you both do

1:33:49

all the time. You both work in wrongful

1:33:51

convictions. And it just,

1:33:54

it never ceases to amaze me how

1:33:57

our judicial system is so back. backwards

1:34:01

and cruel. Wait

1:34:05

till I tell you about how secret evidence

1:34:08

has been used after the Patriot Act to convict

1:34:10

hundreds of people.

1:34:11

That means evidence the state puts on that the defense

1:34:13

is never allowed to see.

1:34:15

That's a thing.

1:34:16

It's insane. It is wild. We are going

1:34:18

to continue this conversation and we'll

1:34:21

go a little bit more chronologically into

1:34:23

some of the information of the

1:34:25

trial and things of

1:34:27

that nature on a couple more things

1:34:30

on our Patreon. So hopefully

1:34:32

Maggie can join us back for that as well.

1:34:36

And I could just talk about this forever.

1:34:39

But yeah, Robbie, you did kind of take the wind out of my

1:34:41

sails a little bit today. But that's what you're

1:34:43

here for. You're here for a little bit of a dose

1:34:45

of reality. The reality check from Robbie. And

1:34:47

so what I want to say actually that I always say

1:34:50

is, you know, Ellen, you're talking about the how the system

1:34:52

is backwards.

1:34:52

It is working exactly how it was intended

1:34:55

to. It was created by

1:34:57

white men for white men. I

1:35:01

want everyone should go and listen to a

1:35:03

race to the murder of Elma Sands. It's the first

1:35:06

trial in United States first

1:35:08

murder trial in United States history. It was Aaron Burr

1:35:10

Alexander Hamilton. Oh, yeah.

1:35:13

It's an incredible podcast. And it was about a woman

1:35:15

who was murdered in New York. And our entire

1:35:18

system is set up on sexism. It's a fun

1:35:20

podcast to listen to. Everyone should listen to it.

1:35:23

Erased. It's a fun race to the murder of Elma Sands,

1:35:25

sexually Jason Flom's daughter, Allison. It's

1:35:27

incredible. Allison Williams is in it. It's

1:35:29

really good.

1:35:31

But that said, if you want to know how our system

1:35:33

was set up,

1:35:34

it's working how it was intended to. So

1:35:37

if you want to change it, everyone needs to vote,

1:35:39

vote judges, vote progressive

1:35:42

prosecutors, like Robbie was talking

1:35:44

about, vote for people who are going to enact legislation

1:35:46

to make change. That is what you can

1:35:48

do because it's not broken. It

1:35:50

is actually working exactly how it's supposed

1:35:52

to be. And the law, I mean, like we literally

1:35:54

learned this in law school,

1:35:56

the law values finality.

1:35:58

Finality is like.

1:35:59

what courts want. They

1:36:02

want to be like,

1:36:03

done, close the book, put it away,

1:36:05

never look at it again. We don't want to revisit

1:36:07

stuff. Yeah, something I learned I didn't even know was

1:36:09

that

1:36:10

prosecutors are pretty much like required

1:36:13

to, to fight the appeals on

1:36:15

it to certain extent. They have to for

1:36:18

the integrity of the conviction, which obviously is bullshit.

1:36:20

But

1:36:21

yeah, finally, they're saying they have to. I

1:36:24

am so glad you chose this case, Maggie,

1:36:26

and we will definitely continue the conversation

1:36:28

on our Patreon. I just love that you guys

1:36:31

are so passionate about it. Imagine I picked a

1:36:32

case and you were like, that is we don't care. It's

1:36:36

really, it's,

1:36:37

it's a lot. There is

1:36:39

a great documentary, we watched it the other

1:36:41

night with our Patreon

1:36:44

listeners, I think it's called Truth and Lies. There's

1:36:46

that new show monsters

1:36:49

that's coming out on Netflix.

1:36:52

This, this is a very important

1:36:54

case. Yeah, I just think of

1:36:56

the way how we've evolved

1:36:59

as people and the things that we talk about

1:37:01

and how we talk about it. I

1:37:04

just feel like it would just be a totally different

1:37:06

case in 2023. So I can't wait

1:37:08

to chat more about it. I can guarantee that

1:37:10

there are thousands and thousands more like it thousands

1:37:13

more cases in which people who

1:37:16

fought finally fought back against like

1:37:18

their attackers and against their assaulters

1:37:20

like are are rotting in prison and like

1:37:22

we just don't know about them. But you know, if there's some

1:37:24

precedent, you know, we said some precedent, maybe

1:37:27

maybe they'll get another chance to but or legislation,

1:37:29

new legislation can give people new chances. Maggie,

1:37:32

will you tell our Rabia and Ellen solve the

1:37:34

case listeners where they can find you where

1:37:36

they can connect and how they can support you and

1:37:38

all of your upcoming projects? Yep. So

1:37:41

I'm generally mostly on Instagram, Maggie

1:37:43

Freeling, Twitter, Maggie Freeling. Basically,

1:37:46

if you just search Maggie Freeling, there's only

1:37:48

one of me, there's no others. You

1:37:51

find me. You are definitely

1:37:53

singular, Maggie. You are one

1:37:55

of a kind. Thanks. I appreciate it.

1:37:57

Actually, Ellen, something really funny. I don't know if you watch. Key

1:38:00

and Peele. But there's this

1:38:03

whole skit with President Obama's

1:38:06

anger management guy. I'm

1:38:08

going to send this to you because before when you were like,

1:38:11

I just want to scream, I was thinking of just

1:38:13

having you next to me for moments where I want

1:38:15

to scream and you just do the screaming for me. I'm going to

1:38:17

send you this skit. I'll

1:38:20

do it. And tell everyone about

1:38:22

all of your upcoming projects and podcasts

1:38:25

because there are just so many. Yes. So season

1:38:27

three of Wrongful Conviction with me is

1:38:29

coming out January. I've been busting my ass getting

1:38:31

that done. There's some crazy cases. I'm

1:38:34

working on a spinoff long form on

1:38:36

one of those, Quincy Cross out of Kentucky.

1:38:39

We're working with the Kentucky Innocence Project on that.

1:38:42

That's a crazy case. The man will probably get out

1:38:44

based on a purple dildo receipt.

1:38:47

So

1:38:48

look forward to that one in the new year. She

1:38:50

loves a dildo story. Yeah. Yeah.

1:38:54

Love a dildo story. Any chance you

1:38:56

get Robbie to say dildo, you

1:38:58

won the day. You won the podcast. When

1:39:00

this habeas, like when they start ruling

1:39:02

on it, they're going to have to talk about dildos in court.

1:39:04

Like this is going to have to happen. Yeah.

1:39:07

I can't wait. I'm sorry. I want to be like the

1:39:09

transponster. I'm sorry, could you repeat

1:39:11

that? One more time. Dildo.

1:39:14

Okay. In the back. Dildo. What

1:39:17

size? What color? Well,

1:39:19

Maggie Freeling, you are a gem. We

1:39:22

absolutely adore having you. You're amazing, Maggie.

1:39:24

And we will continue our conversation on the Patreon.

1:39:26

If you would like to join our Patreon, please find us

1:39:28

at www.patreon.com

1:39:31

slash RobbieAnnEllen. That is where we

1:39:33

do a couple more things. We also do our

1:39:35

watch parodies. We do them all the time lately.

1:39:37

And we have a little bit

1:39:39

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1:39:42

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1:39:44

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1:39:46

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1:39:48

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1:39:50

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1:39:53

And you can find us on socials

1:39:55

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1:39:58

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1:40:00

socials. We really do appreciate hearing

1:40:02

from you and Rabia tell them where they can find

1:40:04

you on social media. I am on

1:40:06

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1:40:07

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1:40:09

I am just my name on Facebook

1:40:11

and the

1:40:13

site that used to be Twitter. I'm

1:40:15

not there a whole lot so don't even worry about that.

1:40:18

But I do want to say don't forget

1:40:20

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1:40:22

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1:40:24

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1:40:27

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1:40:30

And so go to YouTube subscribe to us

1:40:32