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missing. Hi

0:40

Rabia. Hey Ellen, how you doing?

0:42

Good, how are you? Good, I like your lip

0:44

gloss. Oh thank you. My lip gloss

0:46

is popping and my milkshake brings all

0:49

of the boys to the yard. I

0:51

got zero compliments on my fucking lip

0:53

gloss by the way. Rebecca, we haven't

0:56

even introduced you. This is the problem

0:58

with having podcasters on is they're way

1:00

too comfortable in front of the mic.

1:03

When we have performers on, they're so

1:05

timid and then podcasters jump right in.

1:07

Welcome everyone to Rabia and Ellen solve

1:10

the case. I am Ellen and that

1:12

is Rabia across from me. Welcome to

1:14

our talk show. I'll be anybody Ellen

1:17

wants me to be. She just whips.

1:19

That's like a toxic relationship.

1:21

We're like sisters. Anyway,

1:23

I'm so excited about today because I have

1:30

two of my favorite people on. Two good

1:32

friends, two esteemed colleagues and they've brought us

1:34

a case that I know they know inside

1:36

and out. I actually wonder if this

1:38

is the case that like kind of propelled

1:41

them into true crime when they were

1:43

like in their developmental years. But anyhow,

1:46

let's with introducing our guests. Please welcome

1:48

the perfect haired,

1:50

annoyingly so, perfect

1:53

thickest head of hair in podcasting. And

1:55

I'm pretty sure that's pretty much what she's

1:57

known for. All of our other accolades. by

2:00

the wayside Rebecca

2:03

Lavoie Back

2:09

in Kevin welcome to Robbie and Ellen solve the

2:11

case. Oh, man. I can't believe I'm on the

2:13

show. I'm so excited I think I remember when

2:15

you guys launched the show and I was like

2:17

a good idea Fantastic idea.

2:19

I loved your video. That was a fun

2:22

video walking around New York Yeah, all

2:24

Ellen's idea because I don't have a creative cell in

2:26

my body That's why that's

2:28

why we work so well because I

2:30

interpret the law of how I'm feeling

2:32

that day You

2:36

should be on the Supreme Court Robby is says if

2:38

I was in charge every man would just be in

2:40

jail, you know what? I don't like your attitude jail

2:42

Bye not in this case in this case for the

2:44

one we're talking about today all the men are out

2:47

of jail So you do the opposite but

2:49

Robbie I go ahead and brag about them for

2:51

a little bit before we start Making

2:54

fun and we will not make fun of

2:56

you We know that you guys are here

2:58

and actually I have to tell you a

3:00

funny story because when Raffia said Rebecca

3:02

and Kevin were coming Best

3:10

conversationalists like in the industry you really

3:12

are I mean like anytime anybody needs a moderator

3:14

for anything. I'm like Rebecca Lavoie Have

3:17

a plan. Yeah Let

3:19

me tell you folks about Raka if you don't know

3:21

Rebecca and I can't imagine you would not but Rebecca

3:23

is not just Known for all

3:25

her podcast and you know the hosting but

3:28

she's also She's got a

3:30

day job at an HPR and she's the

3:32

director of podcast unit there She is a

3:34

creator and host of the hit podcast crime

3:36

writers on which is where I first discovered

3:39

her and her and her co-host

3:42

Kevin Flynn Toby ball and Laura

3:45

Bricker oh my lord. Why just blank

3:48

that and Laura Bricker they

3:50

reviewed to crime media journalism pop culture They're

3:52

also these two are also the co-hosts of

3:54

these are the stories a law and order

3:56

podcast and Rebecca is a host of

3:58

Netflix's you can't make it up Rebecca

4:00

has also been a guest host on

4:03

the undisclosed addendum of my former podcast.

4:05

She was also our editor for

4:07

what, seven years, I think. She

4:10

was on Slate's Mom and Dad Are Fighting. She's been

4:12

our guest on so many different podcasts. And also

4:14

she's a writer, published writer. She's

4:17

been published in so many different magazines,

4:19

but also co-written a bunch of

4:21

books which we're going to talk about in a second

4:23

with her incredible husband who is also here. Hi,

4:26

Kevin. Hello, Rabia. Hello, Ellen.

4:29

Most of us know Kevin as the co-host

4:31

and producer of Crime Writers On and Law

4:34

and Order. These are their stories. But

4:36

did you also know he is an award-winning

4:38

journalist? He is the Emmy award-winning television reporter

4:40

who first broke the story of the Sheila

4:43

LeBar murders and he is a

4:45

respected author slash co-author of five books. And

4:48

so... I know about respect. I respect

4:50

you. Yeah. That's

4:52

an adjective somebody threw in. I

4:55

like you a lot, but I don't

4:57

respect you. You're not mutually exclusive. Emmy

5:00

award-winning, you know, journalist. I

5:02

like myself, but I can't respect you. Oh, we should have brought

5:04

the Emmy down. That's so impressive to have it behind us.

5:07

Oh, you should always have that behind you. I

5:09

borrow it sometimes for Zoom, if I'm not going

5:12

to lie. Hang it around your neck, Kevin. I

5:14

would all the time. Yeah,

5:16

exactly. So,

5:19

Kevin, you wrote Wicked Intentions. That's

5:21

your book that you wrote on your own, but then you

5:23

too have co-authored four books, Our Little Secrets,

5:25

Legally Dead, Notes on a Killing, and most

5:27

recently, Dark Hearts. It's still a long

5:29

time ago, but yes. Most recently. Still

5:32

a long time ago. That was like 2016 for that one. It's

5:35

like talking about your youngest child and be

5:37

like, most recently. Most recently, Teddy LaFoy, 21 years

5:39

ago. You

5:41

guys were writing together before you

5:44

were married, weren't you? Is that how

5:46

it all began? Yep. Yeah.

5:49

We were. Before we were together together.

5:51

Yes. And you gave me editing

5:53

notes for Wicked Intentions, which

5:55

I took most of. Yeah. Because

5:57

then I had to like, just out of principle, reject some. I'm

6:00

like, this part sucks. Well,

6:02

were you flirting with him in those

6:04

notes? Yes. Really? Were

6:07

you? Just like the

6:09

real life serial killer, Sheila Lebar was flirting with

6:11

him when she was in prison writing

6:13

him letters. Oh, are you still in the news, Sheila? And

6:16

if you want to hear more about that, you

6:18

can listen to episode 10 of the show Criminal,

6:20

on which he tells that story from way back

6:22

when. Are you and Sheila still in contact, Kevin?

6:25

Aw. Is she your backup plan? No.

6:28

Imagine that. She's my backup

6:30

plan, absolutely. It's good to see. I like her

6:32

because I always know we're exactly where she is.

6:37

Don't have to worry about her, you know. No, but

6:39

you know. She can still get around in prison. So

6:41

thanks for coming on our show. You

6:43

guys are two crime, not just two crime,

6:45

you're two crime experts, I think, and especially

6:47

experts about crime in New Hampshire. I think

6:50

all your books were about New Hampshire crimes,

6:52

right? Yep, most of your writing's about that. Yep. And

6:54

today's case is about that, too. You want to tell us what case you

6:56

guys chose? Well, Rebecca and Kevin, we

6:58

have so much to talk about. I

7:01

think a lot of our listeners know who you are and

7:04

know all your accolades. Rabia, you didn't mention the

7:06

hair. I mean, I know I mentioned the

7:08

hair, but you didn't officially spec you with the good hair. I

7:11

just think about her hair all the time, now

7:13

that I'm pretty much bald. I love Rebecca's hair

7:16

so much. Well, before we dive

7:18

into the case, we play a

7:20

little game here called Three Quick Things,

7:22

where Rabia and I play a little game here called

7:25

Three Quick Things, where Rabia and I

7:27

each ask you a question, and then

7:29

we ask our guests the same question.

7:31

We're going to tweak it just a

7:33

little bit for you guys. Whoever is

7:35

really in their livelihood revolves

7:37

around true crime. We usually tweak it a little bit.

7:40

So go ahead, Rabia, and give Rebecca

7:42

and Kevin your first question. Oh,

7:44

you want me to go first? OK. I

7:47

am very excited to ask you this question,

7:49

actually. Oh. Yeah. And you

7:51

can both answer. Seven inches.

7:54

No, be kidding. We're back up.

7:58

I have wondered for years. every

8:00

time I see your brother. Listen,

8:05

more than that is just too much. You gotta

8:07

be something. Here's my question. Both

8:09

of you individually, what is your favorite

8:12

podcast ever? Oh, good question. You've

8:14

never given that question before. Besides the

8:17

ones that I've birthed, I would say one of

8:20

my favorites is... Yeah, as a consumer. Not you

8:22

can't pick your own. As a consumer, 60 songs

8:24

that explain that. Oh, where's a good one? It's

8:26

on Spotify, but I believe the way Spotify is

8:28

doing it, it's gonna put it out everywhere, but

8:31

it's... Rob Parvall is a music critic who

8:33

basically each week takes a

8:35

different song from the 90s and kind of... He

8:38

explains, you know, Green

8:40

Day's Basket Case or, you know, Fucking

8:42

Run by... Can I say that? Yeah.

8:46

That was fair. Okay. Have

8:48

you met Rabia Elizabeth Chaudry? I know. She's

8:50

got her mouth like a goddamn

8:52

priest. I don't know where that would go. He talks about it

8:54

for half an hour. He goes on all these crazy tangents that

8:56

are just really interesting and then interviews an expert. About that particular

8:58

song. I just find it really engaging.

9:01

He's very, very fun. Oh, okay. I

9:03

gotta check it out. I've never heard of it. It's not

9:05

the kind of show that would... If it's

9:07

not about murder, I generally don't check it out, but I'll

9:09

definitely check it out. Rebecca, you. Yeah,

9:12

I can't believe I'm gonna say this because I don't

9:14

think it's like the best podcast I've ever listened to, although

9:17

it's one of my favorites, but I've listened to it like four times. So

9:19

I think I should say it. It's Suspect, season one. I

9:24

love, love, love that show because the construction of

9:26

the show, like... Everything

9:28

you need to know, actually there's a clue to

9:30

it in the first episode, which

9:33

is why I've listened to it like four times because

9:35

it's just so brilliantly written and you don't...

9:37

What's that season about? The

9:39

season is actually about DNA. It's about

9:42

the fallibility of DNA and that's through

9:44

the lens of a wrongful conviction case.

9:46

And literally, we don't realize it while

9:48

you're hearing it, but you're getting every single clue.

9:50

That's brilliant. Episode one. It's like an agate... The

9:52

construction is sort of like an Agatha Christie situation,

9:54

but you don't realize it. It just feels like

9:56

straight journalism. And I just... I love

9:58

that show. I have a lot of affection for it.

10:00

Listen, I don't want to get off on a bad

10:02

foot, but I do just want to call out the

10:04

elephant in the room. Neither one of you mentioned any

10:06

podcast that Rambia and I do. It's

10:09

pandering. I'm putting it out there. I want to

10:11

be, I want, we're friends. I want to stay

10:13

friends, but like it has to be said. Well,

10:16

I really enjoyed the undisclosed

10:18

attendance season. I

10:22

just like, I've given you a lot of compliments and

10:24

there hasn't been a lot of compliments. So my question

10:26

is what's your favorite thing about me? I

10:29

said, okay. Actually,

10:31

I have one. No, no, no, no, no. No,

10:33

I do. I do. I don't like it. You

10:35

do the best podcast live show I have ever

10:38

seen. Period. Period,

10:40

period, period. Yeah. Yeah. I have

10:42

never seen anything like it and I

10:44

will never see anything like it again.

10:47

And her and Joey on stage together

10:49

are fire magic. You're very sweet. You

10:51

have changed the genre of what a

10:53

podcast live show can be and I

10:56

have never seen anything like it and I never will see

10:58

anything like it again unless you invite me to another one.

11:00

Now I want you to imagine the pressure of Rebecca when

11:02

I see her and Joey and she's like you, Raviya, you

11:04

and I are going to do live shows. I'm like, holy

11:06

shit. There's no way. There's no

11:09

way. I you know what I mean? Like the

11:11

I feel like dancing and everything. Yeah. Dance

11:13

and flip and improv. And I'm just I

11:15

can't do any of it. It is so

11:17

stressful. Raviya, I don't want to hear it.

11:19

I really don't want to hear it. I

11:22

don't need your cook shaming anymore. We get

11:24

it. You can cook. I can't. But

11:26

every time I cook a meal, I think

11:28

about you, Alan. I just think about how

11:30

you do it. The last time I had

11:32

friends over, I tricked them into thinking I

11:35

was an amazing cook with Factor Meals. And

11:37

that is a fact. Really? What

11:39

did you make with Factor Meals? You

11:41

have 35 options a week to choose

11:43

from and you can get keto and

11:46

calorie smart and vegan. Miss CrossFit over

11:48

there. Basically Factor is

11:50

ready to eat meals. And

11:52

I am telling you these

11:54

dishes for people. They have the

11:57

two minute meals. You can fuel up

11:59

faster. with, it's like restaurant

12:01

quality, Rabia. Well, it's chef

12:03

crafted and dietitian approved. They're delivered right to

12:06

your door. So I think that's a great

12:08

way to actually fool not just guests, but

12:11

also your own children and your

12:13

family. Factor is the perfect solution

12:15

if you're looking for fast, upscale

12:17

options done easily, or you happen

12:19

to be cooking challenged like myself.

12:22

Head to factormeals.com/solvethecase50 and

12:24

use code solvethecase50 to

12:26

get 50% off. That's

12:31

a big discount. Right? Yeah. That's

12:34

code solvethecase50 at factormeals.com/solvethecase50 and

12:36

get 50% off. All

12:39

right. Here's my question. You guys

12:42

work so well together. You guys have told

12:44

me that. So I want

12:46

you each to tell me your most

12:49

favorite thing about your podcast

12:51

partner slash life partner slash

12:53

bed partner slash you guys

12:55

do the horizontal boot

12:58

scoot boogie, and also your

13:00

biggest pet peeve about them. It doesn't have

13:02

to be something you hate, just something where

13:04

you're like, can you stop? Rebecca

13:07

had her hand up before I finished my

13:09

sentence. Go ahead. Yes. Kevin

13:11

makes me laugh like, like hilarious. Like, seriously,

13:13

he's the funniest person I've ever met in

13:16

my entire life. That is my favorite thing

13:18

about him. It is so hot. It really

13:20

is. My least favorite thing about

13:22

him is that he has an

13:24

Irish feelings box like you would not

13:26

believe. What is that? What does that

13:28

mean? He's fine, fine, fine, fine, fine,

13:30

fine, fine, fine, fine, until he is

13:32

not because he puts all of his

13:34

feelings that are not great in a

13:36

box and shoves them under the bed

13:38

until they explode and they all come

13:40

out at the same damn time. And I'm like,

13:43

where have all those been? And they've been in

13:45

the Irish feelings box. Is that often? Like, how

13:47

often does the box open? It's a box. Like,

13:50

I feel like my box. I

13:53

have a long fuse, but

13:56

it's a big and it's

13:58

unreasonable. It's unreasonable. Black

14:00

every four months racing yourself. You're like any

14:02

day now any day now. It's happening Yeah,

14:07

it's like it's like oh suspense Kevin

14:12

have you considered therapy? Well,

14:16

it's better help yeah use our promo

14:21

Don't use the other promo. You know how you know, I'm okay

14:23

though You know how you know like I'm safe. Yeah, because I

14:25

can talk about it in front of him like that's how you

14:27

know Don't write don't at

14:29

me. Don't tell me to leave everything. I do the thing

14:31

I go you cross your hand Not

14:38

that we're joking about that, of course we're not Kevin your turn oh

14:41

my turn about Rebecca forget it Which

14:45

you said about my feelings box is getting

14:47

opened right now this minute yeah, no, I would say

14:49

really like she just like makes me laugh and That's

14:53

a so it's the same thing fortunately we we

14:56

like the same thing about each other so That's

14:59

right. Thanks for being part of my thanks for not saying

15:01

boobs appreciate it. Well, it's gonna say

15:03

hair, but everybody said hair Everybody

15:07

loves your hair. Sure. I do. I love

15:09

your hair. Oh pulling on it No,

15:13

I actually doesn't have what

15:16

is it you can't stand about her? Oh Nothing.

15:19

Oh stop it grow

15:22

up Nice stand about

15:24

um She she can have opinions.

15:26

What would be the motive if you were charged with

15:28

her murder? Be

15:32

the motive like I

15:34

want an all-male jury Rebecca

15:47

is a super independent woman

15:51

and very confident and sometimes

15:54

she Goes off more

15:56

like she's the general and I'm the colonel instead of

15:58

work both on the same team So that's the

16:00

kind of thing that annoys me

16:02

and when I talk to her about it, my

16:04

feelings explode. Can confirm. So that's

16:07

a perfect start. I

16:13

do have to say that Rebecca is

16:16

very opinionated. She is independent and strong

16:18

and highly intelligent. And I have to

16:20

say that that speaks a lot about

16:22

you because a lot of men can't

16:24

handle that. And a lot of men

16:26

are not. Alan, he

16:29

can't. He's got a box. He's got a

16:31

feelings box. He actually can't handle it. Well,

16:33

no, because they also work together and

16:35

that's an added stress. And

16:38

women like Rebecca and Rabia

16:41

are very intimidating to

16:45

the men. Can you see me freezing up for

16:47

you? Okay.

16:49

And our third question is normally

16:52

to non-podcast

16:54

true crime people. How does true crime fit

16:56

into your life? So I'm

16:58

going to finish the question and I'm going

17:00

to say, what is one way

17:02

that you think that you guys have sort

17:04

of changed with the times how true crime

17:07

and how we consume it and how we

17:09

bring it to people, how you guys are

17:11

a part of sort of changing that narrative

17:13

in a positive way? Well, you start

17:15

by asking or mentioning that we were writers

17:17

first, which is where the crime

17:19

writers on comes from when we wrote true crime.

17:22

And we wrote it when true crime wasn't cool.

17:24

Yeah. We're way in the back of the… Yeah,

17:26

you guys are… Yeah, you're way in the back

17:29

of the bookstore. Our book had terrible titles. You

17:31

got to walk past all the romance. I love

17:33

their titles. We can talk

17:35

times about like how those titles get created.

17:38

I think that certainly, and this is because

17:40

of, you know, Nahn's

17:42

story primarily is that we see the

17:44

pendulum swing back from when we were

17:47

writing. It was about the bad guy

17:49

getting his comeuppance or her comeuppance, meaning

17:51

that the cops are really smart and

17:53

they're all Sherlock Holmes and there's an

17:55

interesting way that they solve the case.

17:59

And then in the end… It's

18:01

like, oh, everything's great. And the pendulum

18:03

has swung to stories where the system doesn't work.

18:06

And maybe not all the cops are really great

18:08

and what they're doing is super. And so that

18:10

has really changed. And there's still people that just

18:13

want to talk about like, they

18:15

have a favorite serial killer and

18:17

they can pull encyclopedia facts

18:20

about it. But I think that

18:22

that's sort of, that's the big thing we have seen change.

18:24

Yeah. We wrote way too much of our books

18:26

based on police reports and court transcripts. All just

18:28

sort of not there, except I've

18:30

never thought Scott Peterson did it. I'm just going to

18:33

say my most controversial truth crime

18:35

take for a very long time. Thank

18:37

you. I feel like a great company there.

18:39

I know. I know. I

18:41

know. Go

18:43

after Rebecca Lavoie, stop messaging me. Oh, I already

18:45

got it on Reddit last week. I'm a liar.

18:48

Who lies? I know. I

18:50

know. I want to take that question. this,

18:53

I'm bringing this up because of the case that

18:55

you guys decided to do today. The

18:57

Pam Smart case, this happened in New Hampshire, right?

19:00

In 1990 at a time when, were

19:02

you both in New Hampshire at the time? I was.

19:05

Yeah, I was in college. You were. Okay.

19:08

You were in college. So you must have been aware of that case. Oh,

19:10

sure. Yeah. As

19:12

it was ongoing. Or is

19:14

that like that kind of, oh, you did, you both

19:17

did? I did not, but I

19:19

had more of an interest in journalism. So

19:21

as far as this being like a big news story,

19:23

that was kind of like how I

19:25

was drawn to it, and maybe the fact that you

19:28

had sort of. I grew up on Long Island.

19:30

So I grew up in the era

19:32

of Joel Rifkin, serial killer. I

19:34

watched To Catch a Killer by John Wayne Gacy on

19:36

television when I was a kid. And

19:39

this case was almost contemporaneous with the Amy Fisher

19:41

case, which happened like right next door to where

19:43

I lived. I think that happened maybe like a

19:45

little bit later, because this was, I think I

19:47

was a senior in high school when this happened.

19:50

And that happened when I was in college. So

19:52

this is like, I grew up in a place

19:54

where true crime, like the DeFeo

19:56

murders, like it was very much a

19:58

part of the fabric. of where I lived,

20:01

like people, you know, talked about shit

20:03

that was happening on Long Island in New

20:05

York, like all the time. So I

20:07

was always kind of interested in it. Yeah, and a

20:09

lot was happening in that little place. So we're gonna

20:12

do the crash course outlining the case in

20:14

just a couple of details. Growing

20:19

up a chubby brown girl in small-town America

20:21

wasn't easy for me, you know. Forget fitting

20:23

in, there was no way I was ever

20:26

going to. But added to that was the

20:28

sense of jealousy I'd feel of the all-American

20:30

looking girls I went to school with.

20:32

You know the girls I mean. They

20:34

were lean, tan, had long legs and

20:36

little waist. They were always some shade of

20:38

blonde with big hair and teased bangs. They'd

20:41

have tiny upturned noses and blue eyes and

20:43

were almost always cheerleaders because of course they

20:45

were outgoing and fun and comfortable with their

20:47

perfect selves. Ugh, I

20:49

hated them and in equal measure wanted

20:51

to be them. I imagined

20:53

they must have amazing lives with all

20:56

the boys crushing over them. I

20:58

never harbored an ounce of sympathy for them,

21:00

never once stopped to think maybe their pretty

21:02

shiny veneers hit a sad reality. These

21:05

girls, the it girls, never got any

21:07

passes from me. And that's

21:09

the exact sense I had when I saw the

21:11

trial of a petite, beautiful young woman

21:13

named Pamela Smart who was charged with the

21:15

murder of her husband in 1990.

21:18

I wasn't alone in hating on her. I

21:20

was joined by most of the world and

21:22

goaded on by the media in convicting her

21:24

before the jury had ever reached a verdict.

21:26

You might think the OJ Simpson

21:29

or Menendez trials were the earliest

21:31

courthouse circuses America witnessed but no.

21:34

Pamela Smart's trial took place a few years

21:36

before those two and it

21:38

was the first ever live televised

21:40

trial in history that was covered

21:42

gavel to gavel. There could hardly

21:44

have been a more juicy story

21:46

for the media to cover or

21:48

a more fascinating figure than Pam

21:50

Smart. Black Widow, Ice Queen,

21:53

killer teacher, seductress,

21:56

vixen. These are just

21:58

some of the names the media dubbed Pamela with

22:00

once the story broke that a

22:03

22-year-old high school staff worker had

22:05

convinced her 16-year-old boyfriend to murder

22:07

her husband. The story was

22:10

as salacious as it gets, and

22:12

the newly launched 24-hour news networks

22:14

couldn't get enough. The local

22:16

TV station, in fact, canceled all

22:18

of its regular programming to air the

22:20

trial exclusively for the 14 days of

22:23

the trial. Media crews arrived

22:25

from around the world, making the

22:28

trial an international sensation, and turning

22:30

those involved into pseudo-celebrities themselves. It

22:33

was a small irony given the fact that Pamela

22:35

Smart had always hoped to become a media personality

22:37

and make it big on TV. Of

22:40

course, she never imagined that rather than

22:42

becoming famous, she would become

22:44

infamous. Pamela Smart was born in

22:46

1967 in Coral Gables, Florida, and grew up

22:48

in Miami before her family moved to New

22:50

Hampshire when she was in middle school. She

22:53

always missed Florida, however, so after graduating

22:55

high school, she returned to the Sun

22:57

Sign State, enrolling at Florida State University.

23:00

There, Pam finished a four-year communications

23:02

degree in three years and

23:04

did so while working and hosting a

23:06

college radio show. This drive and level

23:09

of achievement was typical of Pam. She

23:11

had always been hyper-focused, ambitious, super-organized, and

23:14

methodical. Partying and wasting time

23:16

on college kid pursuits was not her

23:18

thing. She wanted to be

23:20

a television broadcaster and had the

23:22

outgoing, and some would say attention-seeking,

23:24

personality for it. She kept so busy,

23:26

in fact, that she said she didn't even have time for

23:29

a boyfriend. Her first real relationship

23:31

in college came about because of a chance

23:33

meeting during Christmas break in

23:35

1986. She was back in New Hampshire

23:37

visiting family for the holidays when she

23:39

met Greg Smart. Greg was tall,

23:41

handsome, had shaggy long hair and

23:43

deep dimples that she loved and he

23:45

was into heavy metal music just like her.

23:48

Greg was two years older than her and

23:50

was dating other women, but the two eventually

23:52

became a monogamous couple. Greg briefly moved to

23:54

Florida to be close to Pamela but missed

23:56

New Hampshire and his family and friends too

23:59

much. Pam agreed to move back

24:01

to New Hampshire to be with him, even turning down

24:03

a broadcasting job in Florida, and the couple was

24:05

married in a fairy tale wedding on May 7th,

24:07

1989. By

24:09

the time they got married, though, Greg wasn't the

24:11

same Greg that Pam had initially fallen in love

24:14

with. Unlike Pam, Greg had

24:16

never attended college, instead working

24:18

in a factory and then in landscaping, but

24:20

it finally hit him that if he wanted

24:22

to give his wife the kind of comfortable

24:24

life his father had provided, he had to

24:26

get a real career. So he

24:28

cut off his long, rocker hair, started

24:30

wearing suits, and got a job as

24:32

an insurance salesman just like his father.

24:34

At the time, Pam still had media

24:37

ambitions, and while she wasn't able to

24:39

find a broadcasting position in New Hampshire,

24:41

she landed a job as a media

24:43

services director at a local high school.

24:45

There, she met and befriended a number

24:48

of students through Project Self-Esteem, a

24:50

project she volunteered in. She was

24:52

vivacious, energetic, and 22 years old, so

24:55

the kids loved her. She looked young enough

24:57

to be one of them and acted it as well.

25:00

If anything, it's pretty fair to

25:02

say that Pam had some boundary-setting

25:05

issues. She essentially became best friends

25:07

with her student intern, 15-year-old Cecilia

25:09

Pierce. The two hung out together

25:11

in their free time, both inside and outside

25:13

of school, gossiped, shared personal

25:16

details of their lives, and giggled

25:18

over the crush that another student,

25:20

16-year-old Billy Flynn, had on Pam.

25:23

Billy was tall and lanky with dark

25:25

hair, played the guitar, loved heavy metal,

25:27

and was smitten with the 22-year-old staff

25:29

member at the school. The first

25:32

time he saw her, he leaned over to his

25:34

friend and said, I'm in love. Imagine

25:36

his surprise when his crush turned out to

25:38

have a crush on him, too. Pam

25:41

and Greg had not even been married a

25:43

year yet, but the union was already on

25:45

the rocks. They had steadily grown apart since

25:47

the wedding, with Greg spending time outside of

25:49

work with friends, and Pam spending time with

25:51

the students she had turned into close confidants.

25:53

The real turning point came in December of

25:56

1989, just seven

25:58

months into their marriage, when Greg confessed

26:00

to Pam that he had cheated on her. He

26:02

had been having an affair. This is

26:04

when Pam began telling her young friends of her

26:06

marital woes, and when, it seems,

26:09

she began having reciprocal feelings for the

26:11

student who worshiped her, Billy Flynn. Not

26:13

long after Greg confessed his incidelity, Pam

26:16

told Billy that she thought about him

26:18

a lot. In February of

26:20

1990, Pam took Billy and Cecilia to pick

26:22

out videos to watch back at her condo,

26:24

and after the group watched the steamy film Nine

26:27

and a Half Weeks Together, Pam

26:29

took Billy to her room, changed into

26:31

lingerie, and if we are to be

26:33

legally correct here, raped him. After

26:35

all, he was a minor. It was the beginning

26:37

of their sexual involvement, and not long after,

26:40

she began confiding in Billy that Greg was

26:42

abusive to her, and that if Greg

26:44

was around, they wouldn't be able to be together. Billy

26:47

asked her the natural question, why not

26:49

divorce Greg? She said she couldn't. She

26:51

would lose everything, the condo, the beautiful

26:53

furniture, and, of course, their beloved dog,

26:55

Halen. The only way she could stay with

26:57

Billy, she said, was if Greg

27:00

died. In other words, Billy had to kill him. Just

27:02

a few months later, on May 1st, 1990, a

27:05

week shy of their first wedding

27:07

anniversary, Greg was murdered in cold

27:09

blood by Billy Flynn and his

27:12

friend, Pete Randall, while two other

27:14

teens, Vance Jr., Latome, and Raymond

27:16

Fowler, waited in the getaway car.

27:18

According to the testimony of the boys, Pam

27:20

had planned the entire thing. She had left

27:22

a door open for them to get into

27:24

the condo that evening, arranged an alibi for

27:26

herself by being at a school meeting 35

27:29

miles away, had

27:31

instructed them to wear dark clothing and make the

27:33

place look like it had been burgled, told them

27:35

to put the dog in a safe place so

27:37

it wouldn't witness the murder, and even told them

27:39

to use a gun instead of a knife because

27:41

it would be less bloody and not

27:43

mess up her furniture. That night,

27:46

24-year-old Greg Smart entered his darkened

27:48

condo for the last time. His wife

27:50

was still out, and when he stepped

27:52

into the foyer and flicked on the

27:54

lights, he was ambushed by two figures

27:56

that had been lying in wait. Pete

27:58

Randall demanded Greg's wedding. But

28:00

he refused to take it off, saying his wife would

28:02

kill him if he did, and instead offered up

28:05

his wallet. The boys forced Greg on

28:07

his knees and Pete held a knife to

28:09

Greg's throat as he begged for his life.

28:11

But tonight, there was no mercy. Twice

28:14

before Billy had tried to work up the

28:16

courage to kill Greg, but had failed. Tonight

28:18

was the last chance, according to Pam. If he

28:20

didn't do the deed tonight, she'd leave him. And

28:23

so Billy removed the .38 revolver he

28:25

had tucked in his waistband, pointed it

28:27

at Greg's head and said, God forgive

28:30

me, and pulled the trigger. Greg

28:32

was murdered execution style with a single bullet

28:34

to the head. When Pam arrived home a

28:36

little while later, she found her husband's body

28:38

in the foyer of their home and ran

28:41

to neighboring condos pounding on the doors

28:43

and asking for help. First responders

28:45

arrived quickly, but of course, nothing could

28:47

be done for Greg. Pam

28:49

was eager to speak to the police so they

28:51

could help catch the perp that killed her husband

28:53

and she was sure, she told the authorities, that

28:55

he was murdered in the course of a botched

28:57

burglary. The investigators in the case weren't so sure,

28:59

however. There was no sign of forced entry. Burglars

29:02

generally didn't carry guns and usually

29:04

take off with a fight if the homeowner shows

29:07

up. And most importantly, whoever had done this had

29:09

left behind things that they could have taken like

29:11

Greg's wallet, which was laying in plain

29:13

sight between his legs. No, this did

29:15

not smell like a burglary to them and

29:18

something about Pam seemed really off as well.

29:20

She wasn't acting like a grieving widow. In fact, they

29:22

hadn't seen her shed a tear at all. When

29:25

they returned to the crime scene with her so

29:27

she could collect some personal items, she walked right

29:29

on top of the blood-stained part of the carpet and

29:31

when her mother put a towel down over the

29:33

blood stain, she walked on top of that as

29:35

well. Callous. That was

29:37

the observation. She seemed callous

29:40

about the entire thing and

29:42

entirely too invested in convincing them that

29:44

Greg had been murdered because he interrupted

29:46

a burglary. A couple of weeks into

29:48

the investigation, two big breaks came their

29:50

way. A phone tip told them a

29:52

teenager named Cecilia Pierce had information about the

29:54

case and a man came into the station

29:56

with a wrapped-up gun and told him he thought

29:59

it might be involved. in the murder. The

30:01

man was the father of Vance Latamy Jr.,

30:03

one of Billy's best friends, who had stolen

30:05

it from his father's collection for the purpose

30:07

of killing Greg. It didn't take long for

30:09

the police to piece together the entire conspiracy.

30:12

On August 1st, 1990, Detective

30:15

Daniel Pelletier approached Pamela in her school's

30:17

parking lot. Smart knew him, having been

30:19

interviewed by him numerous times since the

30:21

murder. She casually asked, what's up? Well,

30:24

Pam, Pelletier responded, I have some good news

30:26

and I have some bad news. The good

30:28

news is that we've solved the murder of

30:30

your husband. The bad news is you're

30:32

under arrest. From the moment

30:34

of her arrest to all these years later,

30:36

Pamela Smart has maintained her innocence. When the

30:39

story broke by a young pre-teacher who made

30:41

her 16-year-old lover murder her husband, she

30:43

became the media star she never

30:46

anticipated. She was reviled, hotly and

30:48

instantly, and not unlike Scott Peterson

30:50

was convicted in the eyes of the

30:52

public before she ever stood

30:54

trial. During opening arguments, the prosecutor

30:56

referred to the teenagers involved in

30:58

the murder as victims of, quote,

31:00

an evil woman bent on murder.

31:03

The jury agreed. Pamela Smart was found

31:05

guilty and convicted of being an accomplice

31:07

to first-degree murder, conspiracy to commit murder,

31:10

and witness tampering. She was sentenced to

31:12

life without the possibility of parole, a

31:14

sentence which she is still serving. As

31:16

to the boys who murdered Greg, after

31:18

having served various sentences, they all received

31:20

plea deals in exchange for testifying against

31:23

Smart. And they are all out on

31:25

parole today. For the past 33 years,

31:27

Pamela Smart has held to the same

31:29

story. Yes, she was guilty of

31:31

having a sexual relationship with a minor, but no,

31:34

she had nothing to do with the murder of

31:36

her husband. She says she did not ask Billy

31:38

to murder Greg and she had no idea he

31:40

was planning on doing it, and she alleges she

31:43

did not receive a fair trial. She

31:45

has repeatedly appealed the conviction and applied

31:47

for parole and been denied

31:49

each time. So, is she guilty as

31:51

charged? Did she get a fair trial?

31:53

And what about a fair sentence? Let's

31:56

talk about it. Rabia, I know

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33:22

There's a lot to talk about here. And I know I

33:25

sent you guys kind of our creative outline, and

33:27

I started off with some bullet points. I was like,

33:29

oh, stuff we can all agree on and right out

33:31

the gate. I think that was not true. Sorry.

33:34

No, no. It wasn't just you. Even Ellen had a

33:36

question about a couple of these points. So let's start

33:38

with the stuff we can definitely agree on, right? There's

33:41

no question about any of this. We know Pam admits,

33:43

Pam was smart, admits that she was having an

33:46

affair. I'm using bunny quotes, molesting

33:48

a child. At the time,

33:50

it was always framed as she was in

33:52

a relationship with a minor, in a relationship with a

33:54

16-year-old. Framed by her, or you mean framed

33:56

by the media? Both. They didn't call it that.

33:58

Both. And

34:01

in court as well. I mean like that's how it was referred

34:03

to her relationship. It was referred to as

34:05

a relationship. Because you know boys are very

34:07

lucky when they have sex with adult women. That's

34:09

how it's always framed back then. Yeah. You're

34:12

an adult, right? We know for sure that

34:14

Billy Flynn and Pete Randall were the guys, the

34:16

boys who were in the house and

34:19

they are for the murder of Greg between the

34:21

two of them. Like you can, you

34:23

might disagree on who did what but they

34:25

both say that Billy was the one who

34:27

pulled the trigger and Pete

34:29

held a knife to Greg's throat. We

34:33

know for sure that Vance and I was going

34:35

to ask you guys is it Lattamy or

34:38

Lutt Team? Lattamy, yeah. That's what I

34:40

thought. Yeah. Okay, that Vance Lattamy also

34:42

known as Junior that he procured his grandmother's

34:44

car and his father's gun for the

34:46

commission of the crime. Junior

34:48

and Ray Fowler apparently were waiting in the getaway car.

34:50

So these are all kind of like facts that everybody

34:52

can stipulate to. We all know

34:55

that Pam had definite boundary issues given

34:57

her relationships with not just Billy but

34:59

also with Cecilia, I would say, right?

35:01

Yep. And then going to

35:03

Cecilia, now here's where I think we start

35:05

kind of departing. I said that we all

35:07

can agree that Cecilia Pierce had knowledge beforehand

35:09

about the murder. And Rebecca

35:11

says no. Let's just start there. Hard

35:14

disagree. Hard disagree. She told

35:16

police she had knowledge of the

35:18

murder beforehand. She said that she

35:20

told an adult she had knowledge of murder

35:22

beforehand. I don't believe that she did.

35:24

And if you look at the transcript

35:26

of the phone call, which is suspect

35:28

that the wiretap stuff, which I know

35:30

we'll get into, the transcripts of them

35:32

are incredibly suspect because of the quality

35:34

of the tapes. She talks about you

35:36

knew beforehand, but she's talking to Pam.

35:38

She's not talking about herself. And

35:41

she changed her story multiple times

35:43

with the cops. So

35:46

she claims she knew beforehand only

35:48

after saying she didn't know. And

35:50

I think that all of these

35:52

kids were so susceptible and so

35:54

suggestible by law enforcement once law

35:56

enforcement had come up with their narrative of the

35:58

case. I just I don't think she

36:00

knew or I don't I mean in it

36:03

if she knew I don't think she knew in the way that

36:05

she says she knew. Well, I guess here's my question to that

36:08

if we're to believe that she didn't know anything, you

36:10

know, she was Cecilia was why agreed to wear a wire

36:12

now apparently it was that with parental consent. She was 16

36:14

years old. You could talk about the legalities of that. It

36:16

may have been an illegal wiretap too, because it was not

36:19

signed off on by a judge. It was signed off on

36:21

by the AG, which is the

36:23

prosecutor. Is that still legal to

36:25

wiretap a minor? That feels highly

36:27

illegal. Well, they're not wiretapping the

36:29

minor. They are listening. I mean

36:31

they're really wiretapping Pamela Smart here,

36:33

but the minor agreed to wear the

36:36

wire, right? That's what I mean.

36:38

I'm sorry. She – because Cecilia

36:40

was 16. That feels illegal. Well, parental

36:42

consent is probably required. I think usually

36:44

the big legal issue, right, is about –

36:46

not about the age of the person being

36:48

recorded, but about the permission. Yeah. And whether

36:50

you're in a state that's one party or

36:53

two party. Yeah. She was an agent of

36:55

the law enforcement at the time, yeah. Right.

36:57

And so – yeah, so I think that's

36:59

why New Hampshire is what's called two party

37:01

state. So in theory, both parties

37:03

need to know they're being recorded. Unless a

37:05

judge says not. Unless a judge says Pam

37:07

doesn't need to know she's being recorded because.

37:10

At the beginning of one of the recordings, at least,

37:12

you hear – and I didn't listen

37:14

to all the – I can't find all the

37:16

recordings, frankly, online. Yeah. You know why? Because they're

37:18

not. Right. They're not exactly. But at the beginning

37:20

of one recording, I did hear the police officer

37:22

say that we are going to begin this wiretap,

37:24

and it is a one-party consent state. And

37:26

so I don't know if the law has

37:28

changed. It could be that the law has

37:30

changed in New Hampshire since the officer actually

37:32

said this on the call. But here's what

37:35

I want to say about it. But that's

37:37

kind of a non-issue because Pam says she

37:39

– quote – knew she was being recorded.

37:41

So she takes that off the table. Pam

37:43

says that. But that's Pam covering for why

37:45

she said the thing she said. Totally. Now,

37:47

what's interesting to me about this is, like,

37:49

if you're saying that Cecilia didn't know, Pam's

37:51

entire narrative about these conversations was that I'm

37:53

calling Cecilia because Cecilia knew something. So Cecilia

37:55

knew something. Even Pam is admitting that

37:57

Cecilia knew something. So what – could

38:00

that something be? Pam has said her phone

38:03

call conversations is that I call Cecilia because

38:06

Cecilia knew stuff about the murder and I

38:08

wanted to find out what she knew. That's her

38:10

entire defense. So even Pam is saying, yeah Cecilia

38:12

knew about the murder. But it's the act of

38:14

the murder. Cecilia is like, I knew the murder.

38:16

No, no, no, but don't. That's not what she's

38:18

saying. She's saying that she knew something even about

38:21

like before, the planning and all of that. Cecilia

38:23

already had information about this. Meaning what she's trying

38:25

to say is that Cecilia was in a conspiracy

38:27

with Billy and others but Pam wasn't part of

38:29

that. Okay. So Cecilia is saying I

38:32

had some knowledge beforehand. Pam seems

38:34

to know that Cecilia knows something. How?

38:36

I don't know. I don't know how

38:38

Cecilia or how Pam knows Cecilia knows.

38:40

And so I'm like I tend to

38:42

believe that Cecilia did know because nobody

38:44

in the mix seems to say she

38:46

doesn't, right? I think we're talking about an

38:48

incredibly suggestible girl who slept overnight

38:50

at Pam's house a bunch of times when

38:53

she was 15 years old and will go

38:55

along with what everybody says. But given the

38:57

fact that Pam we know had really poor

38:59

boundaries obviously she's like partying with these kids.

39:01

They're going to be together, they're going to clubs, they're

39:04

drinking together. I mean who wouldn't? It seems

39:07

like Cecilia was like her bestie at the time.

39:09

It doesn't sound like Pam had any other friends

39:11

at that point. Except for the one

39:13

she was fucking. I mean yeah.

39:16

There's that. That's right, Kevin. So.

39:18

Sex with a 15 year old

39:20

boy must be super bad. Great.

39:24

The technique must be like super

39:26

refined. I mean he was a

39:28

virgin. These kids by the way

39:30

we should clarify people

39:32

who don't know they were from Seabrook,

39:34

New Hampshire. They were from like an

39:36

impoverished like not great place.

39:39

They all came from really poor

39:41

families and they had

39:43

like learning issues. Like these were like

39:46

very vulnerable young people and

39:49

Pam Smart even today admits

39:51

that what she did was

39:53

super fucked up with these

39:55

kids and yeah they

39:57

were really really vulnerable

39:59

kids. Well, let me ask you this. All

40:01

three of you, I might pose this question to you. What do you

40:04

think about Pam's vulnerability herself at that time?

40:07

She's 22. She's in a new

40:10

relationship. She's a little disappointed with her professional

40:12

life and then like her private life. And

40:14

so, yeah, I mean, I think the idea

40:16

that she would be looking for friendship

40:19

from, you know, regardless of the

40:21

age, from students, like her, is

40:23

it like she's an educator or

40:26

a paraprofessional or whatever? But the

40:28

fact that she, you know, that

40:30

she would entertain having those kinds

40:32

of relationships, I just show, like

40:34

you said, that she has boundary issues. And

40:37

I think there's probably, you know, some sadness

40:39

in her life, but also a lot of immaturity.

40:41

Yeah. She was emotionally very, very stunted. There was

40:44

something going on with her for sure in her

40:46

personal life. And there are allegations that she was

40:48

in an abusive relationship. That's where that would come

40:50

in. If it came in, to me,

40:52

that's where it would come in because she

40:55

clearly couldn't connect with anybody as a peer.

40:57

So why was she seeking validation in this

40:59

way? I mean, she clearly couldn't get it

41:02

elsewhere. I mean, if I was in

41:04

a really toxic, awful situation, there's

41:09

a million people I could go have a drink with and talk

41:11

to you about it, like you. Right. But when

41:15

you're 22 and if there was

41:17

abuse, you know, and I

41:19

know Rabia was saying, does it matter if

41:21

she was abused? But then you kind

41:23

of have to think about somebody that

41:25

young whose frontal cortex isn't

41:28

done developing, being rather stunted. Right.

41:31

So if she was stunted at sort of like a

41:33

16 or 17-year-old, the

41:35

idea of being friends or,

41:37

you know, befriending teenagers

41:39

of that age doesn't seem that

41:41

out of the question. Right. And

41:44

also, I'm trying to think of 22 years

41:46

old graduating college, but she was, like, married

41:48

and, you know, the rumors of— But she

41:50

graduated early too, right? Right. She

41:53

was super ambitious, real hardworking. And

41:55

there were those two incidents that

41:58

had witnesses that had tested it. that

42:00

Greg was abusive so yeah.

42:03

Did you guys like in your high school you

42:05

did you not also have like that one

42:07

girl who had a boyfriend who was

42:10

in college or yeah right you know

42:12

and it's so you know they

42:14

call it the Romeo and we all had

42:18

the teachers who you know fed off of

42:20

the adoration of students. Yeah like thing.

42:24

Stop it.

42:26

There's a part of me that feels really

42:28

sympathetic for her in this situation. She's needy.

42:32

Her husband she found out like seven months

42:34

into her marriage you know has cheated

42:36

on her. She's less the life that she

42:38

wanted in Florida. I moved back to New Hampshire to be with

42:41

him and she's at a high school

42:43

versus being in a broadcast. I mean like you

42:45

know she's all these things going on. She's generally

42:47

a super high achiever but it just seems like

42:49

her life is not going as she planned and

42:51

she was a planner too. Yeah I do feel

42:53

sympathetic for her but then my sympathy just kind

42:56

of stops at the murder

42:58

scheme and I think that

43:00

might also be where like some of us depart ways

43:02

to in our opinions about this. So I want to

43:04

talk about Pam's culpability but before

43:06

that Ellen you brought up the abuse and

43:09

the two times that they seemed like there

43:11

might have been abuse was there was an

43:13

incident where Pam was out with Greg her

43:15

husband at a bar and they

43:17

were out for drinks with friends and they got into a fight

43:20

and he spit his drink on her

43:22

and anger. People witnessed that and then

43:24

one time she showed up. Any like

43:26

spit take like around Joe Marx? No

43:28

like spit it spit it at her

43:30

and anger like deliberately. Which is assault and

43:32

imagine what he would do behind closed doors if you do

43:35

that in front of people. And then there's also a time

43:37

she showed up at her parents house in her in

43:40

her pajamas saying that he kicked me out. She

43:42

had told Billy that one time he had kicked

43:44

her out while she was in her just on the

43:46

Braun undies and locked her out of the house. And

43:48

we don't know if that's true or not other than

43:51

the fact that she told Billy that and Billy related.

43:53

So let's talk about smart culpability and in terms

43:56

of the murder of her husband

43:58

I mean where do you guys land on that? I'm

44:00

gonna be completely honest with you. I don't think

44:02

it's knowable, but there's one thing

44:04

about it that is really fascinating

44:06

to me. Pam Smart

44:09

admits that she, you know,

44:11

she calls it an affair still, which really

44:13

is fucked up. But she did, she admits

44:15

the relationship with Flynn. She

44:17

admits her role in being

44:20

the instrument that kicked off the murder

44:23

of her husband. She admits all of

44:25

it. She knew the

44:27

only way she could potentially get parole

44:29

was to admit her culpability in the

44:31

murder. And she wouldn't and she

44:34

knew that if she didn't she would be in

44:36

prison for the rest of her life. And

44:39

she wouldn't do it. And

44:41

that's and that has, I can't

44:43

get over that. The other thing that I can't

44:45

get over is that there

44:47

was a narrative set

44:49

for her that everything

44:52

played toward. The media played toward

44:54

it and she got the

44:56

one of the worst trials I have like ever,

44:58

I mean you can see all of it because

45:00

it's all on video. It

45:03

is one of the most tainted trials. It's

45:05

like unbelievably tainted. Like when we talk about

45:07

it, it's like crazy. And

45:10

you know you were talking about the frontal cortex thing. We

45:13

have no problem applying research about that and

45:15

talking about that when we talk about like

45:17

young male defendants or whatever. She

45:20

got, we talk about the benefit of the doubt.

45:22

She got the whatever the opposite of it is.

45:25

She's still getting that to this day.

45:27

The prosecutor in the case Paul Magiato

45:30

testified at Billy Flynn, the shooter's

45:32

parole hearing to help him get

45:34

out. And he is still calling

45:37

Pam Smart an unrepentant

45:40

cold-blooded killer to this day. Billy

45:42

Flynn is the one who pulled

45:44

the fucking trigger in this case. So

45:46

there is a narrative about her that

45:48

to me is like it is unknowable

45:51

what actually happens. So it is

45:53

not, in my opinion, it is not what the state

45:55

says it is. It is not. There's a reason why

45:58

she will refuse. If it's not what the state says, states

46:00

as it is, you're saying that she

46:02

did not coach, groom,

46:05

encourage Billy, force even according

46:07

to Billy because Billy's like she reamed me out because I tried

46:09

a couple of times I just couldn't go through with it and

46:11

I messed it up and she reamed me out and forced me

46:13

and said it's over between us if you

46:16

don't do this. But you don't believe any of that.

46:18

You think Billy, Billy Flynn did this on its own.

46:20

I think it could be somewhere in between that being

46:22

said, I have heard enough police

46:24

interrogation tape of New Hampshire cops with

46:27

young men through the lens of the

46:29

Jason Carroll case to know that you

46:32

could get a young man to say

46:34

anything if you've already got your narrative set. I

46:37

know that. I know that for a fact. And I

46:39

know that all these kids were like housed together,

46:41

were able to talk to each other. I

46:44

know that there is just like so many

46:46

forces at work here and there was a

46:48

narrative and if the police tell the kids

46:51

a narrative, the kids are going to

46:53

tell them that narrative back. And that's

46:55

why I just think it's unknowable and I think that

46:57

the story we have been told and the one that

46:59

is the legend of Pam Smart, I do

47:01

not believe that that legend is true.

47:04

I do. All right,

47:06

yeah, Kevin has his hands out. All right,

47:08

Kevin. Yeah, I'm down. First of

47:10

all, no one has asked whether Kevin

47:12

Flynn is related to Billy Flynn. Yes.

47:15

No brothers. We're brothers. And

47:17

not one person has broken out

47:19

into giving the old razzle dazzle,

47:21

which I think is amazing. Oh,

47:23

yeah. It's a real, real shame. I

47:26

am using a lot of restraint right now. Well,

47:30

it's all that jazz and whatever. Yes,

47:33

well, I am, I mean, call me

47:35

a sheep, but I don't know

47:38

if all the details are right, but

47:41

I do believe that she instigated

47:43

the killing with Billy Flynn, who

47:45

she was, you know, carting around

47:48

by, we'll just say his nose.

47:53

You know, I just, I think that if you're

47:55

going to say Rebecca, or if

47:57

one, I won't say it on point to Rebecca,

47:59

if one were to say. that perhaps they all

48:01

kind of worked their

48:04

story in a different way. I would

48:07

think by now someone would say that.

48:09

Do you think someone would come out now that they're all out

48:11

and say, oh, no, you don't think that? No.

48:15

Why would there be no upside to that? The story is sad. This is

48:17

what it's going to be forever. Right. They

48:19

also serve their sentences and it's too late to come back now

48:21

and say that. Well, I would say this. For

48:23

somebody like Cecilia, we have seen

48:25

– and Kevin, sorry, Rebecca, you've seen these cases when

48:27

we've done undisclosed. The word 20 years later, the witness

48:29

who was forced to lie about making a false identification

48:32

is like, I just can't live with this shit anymore.

48:34

For the guys who are enrolled and who are actually

48:36

charged, it's different. But for Cecilia, who

48:38

was never charged with anything, she certainly could come

48:40

forward after all these years. And we've seen this. It's

48:42

been 33 years. And I don't think it would be

48:44

any loss to her to come forward and

48:46

say, you know what? It's all bullshit.

48:49

I mean all that ought. Both things could be

48:51

true. Sam Smart could have been abused

48:53

by the system and maybe you

48:56

can argue whether she got a fair

48:58

trial. You can argue with whether all

49:00

the things that happened, you know,

49:02

what happened to a man or happened to a

49:05

different kind of defendant if there were no TV

49:07

and if a teacher

49:09

sleeping with students wasn't a hot thing in

49:11

the media. But it

49:13

can also be true that she got Billy

49:15

Flynn to kill her husband. And

49:18

just because you might want to come

49:20

to her defense with, you

49:22

know, either a

49:24

wrongful conviction or I wouldn't say

49:27

wrongful conviction but maybe a misguided

49:29

prosecution or from a feminist lens,

49:31

I still feel like that

49:34

doesn't change the fact that she,

49:36

you know, set motion. Kevin's getting canceled

49:38

after this one. No, no. But

49:41

you used very important words there. You feel

49:43

like. This is a great example to

49:46

me of a feels like

49:48

case. I feel like I do

49:50

not feel like what you're asserting.

49:52

Well, true. That's absolutely true. That

49:54

being said, I but this

49:58

is what I believe. This is what I absolutely. believe

50:01

even if the story is 100% true

50:04

that she goaded Billy Flynn to shoot her

50:06

husband, she should 100% get a new trial. I

50:11

cannot believe that anybody could look

50:13

at that trial and say, and

50:15

what really bothers me

50:22

is when people are like, well, she's guilty, so

50:24

it doesn't matter. It matters

50:27

because tainted trials are used by

50:29

the system to point to other

50:32

trials and say, see, we treat

50:34

everybody the same. And it's

50:36

like, that's not okay. It's not okay what

50:38

happened in this trial. And this trial became

50:40

like the model for the way other defendants

50:43

were treated around media stuff. And

50:45

like a lot of people got screwed over because of

50:47

this trial, not just Pam Smart. We disagree about the

50:49

case itself, but I also disagree

50:51

with the outcome even if she

50:53

is super guilty, which I also

50:55

think is probably somewhere in between.

50:57

Ellen, what do you think? It's

50:59

so interesting because I find so

51:01

many pieces of other cases. I

51:03

find this like a combination, like

51:05

a mixture of true crime cases.

51:08

Like when I never really understood the

51:11

full scope of

51:13

a coerced confession until, you know,

51:15

Brandon Dassey and then hearing, if

51:17

you've listened to Jesse, Ms. Kelly's

51:20

coerced confession where he literally was parroting

51:23

what the police officer was saying, because

51:25

thinking in your right mind, you think

51:27

that's not a thing. You don't say

51:30

you do something when you don't do

51:32

it. That's what we think. I

51:34

feel like it has aspects of

51:36

this. And then my utter disdain

51:39

for Mary Kayla Torino, like having

51:41

the disdain and especially being a

51:43

mom and thinking like, how can

51:45

you touch a little boy

51:47

bot? The narrative that I

51:49

have in my mind, and maybe I'm

51:51

a little theatrical, I've heard that once

51:54

or twice, I feel

51:56

like it was this stunted

51:59

kind of thing. of woman having this

52:01

affair with a young man, unfortunately it

52:03

does happen. And I feel

52:06

like it was like, oh I wish we could

52:08

be together. Yeah but

52:11

we'd have to like throw my

52:13

husband off a bridge or something.

52:16

It was that and like the

52:19

seed could have been planted. So

52:21

I don't think she was some

52:24

goomba, jabroni godfather being like, hey

52:26

you didn't kill him the way

52:28

I told you to. Like I

52:30

don't think she was a mastermind

52:32

like that. I think maybe

52:34

it was talked about and he was

52:36

like a 15 year old kid

52:38

being like, yeah I can run off in the sunset

52:40

with this hot 22 year old. All

52:42

we have to do is offer old man. I think

52:45

it is way more simple than

52:49

everything that it has blown

52:51

up to. And of course

52:54

it's all wrong. The fact that she got

52:56

murder on the first and they got murder

52:58

on the second is my brain

53:00

just like it doesn't compute.

53:02

And also I have to

53:04

be honest I watched recent

53:07

interviews of her and maybe

53:09

I'm hook, line and sinker. I don't

53:12

know she was so adamant in what

53:14

she was saying. It does

53:17

it all kind of makes sense to

53:19

the story of it really

53:21

not being that big of a plan

53:23

and kids being stupid and awful. I'm

53:25

taking a man's life. You know what

53:27

the problem is? Is that the person

53:29

she actually is is so

53:32

widely different than the portrayal of

53:34

the person that we know her

53:37

as. Like, iconicly right? We know

53:40

the woman with the perm and

53:42

the giant bow that is a

53:44

whore. Right? That's the one we know. And

53:47

the person she actually is and we

53:49

know the bikini photo because that was

53:51

shown on TV 10 million fucking times.

53:54

She did not give that bikini photo to

53:56

Billy Flynn. You know who gave that bikini

53:58

photo to the cops? Photoshop

54:01

manager who developed and had a copy

54:03

of that right and the cops released

54:05

it to the media and that became

54:07

the Sensational photo and the story became

54:09

this is Pam smart posing in a

54:11

bikini and look how look at this

54:13

whore Who had this photo and

54:15

gave it to a child? And we

54:18

all thought that like we all thought

54:20

it and now you're but

54:22

your brain isn't computing the real person

54:24

that you're seeing And like

54:26

that's because the root the perp am smart that

54:28

we all knew is a fake ass Person

54:31

that the cops and the prosecutors

54:33

wanted us to know and the

54:36

media fucking loved that heaven You're

54:38

gonna say something when Ellen was

54:40

speaking. I was curious about What

54:43

do we remember what happened with the state

54:45

of the relationship between? Pam

54:48

and Billy right after Greg was

54:50

killed Did she ghost

54:52

him after that or were they still

54:54

having? Romance or

54:56

did the shooting somehow for some

54:58

reason resolve the rest of the

55:01

relationship I didn't see anything of any information

55:03

about that in the she broke up with him before

55:05

the shooting did she really I believe so Yeah, was

55:07

that what Billy testified to know? I believe they actually

55:09

were not together for like a couple weeks before this

55:12

but apparently but she saw him the day of the

55:14

Shooting right she visited him at the like she met

55:16

him up He met up with him at his Walker

55:18

or something during the afternoon. She told him that According

55:22

to the boy sesame. She told him

55:24

that I'm leaving the basement door unlocked,

55:26

right? I haven't seen anything

55:28

about like they're the state of there But I'm

55:30

guessing that the police are all over

55:33

her immediately pretty much that she's like trying

55:35

to keep it I kept a distance from

55:37

Billy She's not gonna be the time to be

55:39

hanging out or also to be like you've done what

55:41

I needed you to do and thank you You

55:43

can take that 15 year old schlong and you

55:45

can go Find Mary Jane Rotten

55:47

crotch at Seabrook High School and you can

55:49

take her to the prom Here's what

55:51

I think though I think that if the police

55:53

had taken her seriously Which

55:55

they didn't because she's like this is a burglary got

55:58

gone wrong. She did media interviews And she's like, I

56:00

think this is burglar. Police were like, we don't think

56:02

it is, because there's no signs of forced entry. Burglars,

56:05

usually if a homeowner interrupts a burglary, they

56:07

just take off. They don't carry guns. They

56:10

don't slash the cushions on a sofa. Like,

56:13

it seems very staged to them. It was staged.

56:15

The whole thing was staged. And Greg's

56:18

wallet was lying between, if you

56:20

see the crime scene, he was lying between his legs. They

56:22

didn't even take that. What are they burglaring

56:24

if they're not even going to take his wallet? They left

56:26

that behind. So they didn't believe that. And I

56:28

think if they had believed that, but I

56:31

think they were so immediately focused on this

56:33

is a murder. Like, this is a personal

56:35

murder versus a burglary gone wrong. If the

56:37

whole thing had just been like, botch burglary,

56:40

we've got to figure out who did this,

56:42

maybe she would have continued to see her

56:44

lover. I don't know. So what was the

56:46

motive? The motive was not money. And that

56:49

has been because the whole insurance thing is

56:51

bullshit. She could not have known how

56:53

much insurance policy was worth. That is correct. She did

56:55

not know. She knew there was a life insurance. She

56:57

didn't know how much it was worth. But here's the

56:59

thing. I want to give my opinion on where I

57:02

land because I haven't done that yet. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

57:04

I'm actually with Kevin on this one. And I'm the

57:06

person who I'm like, everybody's innocent. But

57:08

I think everybody's innocent. That's where I start.

57:10

That's what they say on Reddit, Rabia. Well,

57:12

that's where I start because people do deserve

57:14

the presumption of innocence. That's our constitutional right,

57:17

is the presumption of innocence at the beginning

57:19

of being charged. But for me, it's not

57:21

so much feelings-based because I really did have

57:23

to parse and I talk about in the

57:25

crash course how my initial reaction

57:27

to it was like, oh, this really good-looking,

57:30

oh, you know what I mean?

57:32

Like manipulated the sky. I mean, that was my initial

57:35

reaction all those years ago and

57:37

continued to be for many years. So

57:39

I had to divorce that. But even her

57:41

own lawyer, Mark Sisty, has said, other than

57:44

her totally screwing up

57:46

on cross-examination when it came to being

57:48

asked about the recorded conversations, the fact that he's

57:50

like in the tape. Literally, Mark Sisty said this

57:52

quote. He's like in the tape, she says, if

57:55

you tell the truth, we're all fucking going to

57:57

jail. She says this is Cecilia. Mark Sisty is

57:59

acknowledging death. Those are the actual lines and he

58:01

said there's an mark sissy said there's no question It

58:03

was Pam's voice the jury could recognize

58:05

the voice and a sentence But there are parts

58:07

of the tape that were not you could not

58:09

hear there parts of the tape that are clear

58:11

and those are the Parts that Pam was trying

58:13

to explain away during her cross examination because they

58:15

make her sound really bad My opinion

58:18

is not based on a feeling when you're when

58:20

I hear that if she's telling Cecilia if you

58:22

tell the truth We're all fucking going to jail.

58:24

That means the truth is gonna convict

58:27

him and That means

58:29

she had something to do with it. I mean, it's

58:31

as simple as that I don't know how much simpler

58:33

it can get if she's your house

58:35

mark sissy says he thinks she didn't do

58:37

it Oh the defense the journey

58:40

Say that about all of his clients and you

58:43

know him because we have written books where he

58:45

was the fucking defense journey And he did not

58:47

say that all the other markets mark sissy

58:49

never said I think my client did it But of

58:51

course their clients did do I don't understand

58:53

how anybody could hear him say

58:56

that line and

58:58

believe that She

59:00

didn't do it. That's hard to explain away

59:03

agree unless you're buying her explanation that I

59:05

was just that was me My

59:07

way of drawing out stuff. No that

59:09

line has nothing to do with drawing

59:11

out information from Cecilia That line is

59:14

is an admission of guilt. She didn't

59:16

say if the truth comes out all of you

59:18

are going Yeah, well, what do you think the motive was

59:20

for her to kill Greg if it was if she did

59:22

in fact on purpose in

59:24

advance Have a plan to

59:27

as the state says Lore this

59:29

boy in with sex and then use him

59:31

to murder her husband. Well, here's the thing

59:34

I actually don't think that the whole thing

59:36

started with a murder plot I think she

59:38

felt I think she asked it to stay

59:40

think so maybe but I think because of

59:42

where she was down in the Dumps, that's

59:44

you know feeling rejected feeling humiliated in her

59:46

marriage feeling lonely and vulnerable to me That

59:49

explains her weird relationship with a 16 year

59:51

old girl as well I think

59:53

she did kind of fall for Billy

59:55

and then she's like, oh this guy

59:58

this kid who by the way is from the wrong

1:00:00

side of the tracks, has anger

1:00:02

management issues, is also really vulnerable.

1:00:04

Maybe I could get him to off-preg. I

1:00:06

don't think she's sort of sleeping with him

1:00:09

for the purpose of that, but I think

1:00:11

she realized the opportunity in it. So why kill

1:00:13

him? Why do so many people kill their

1:00:15

spouses instead of divorce? It happens all the

1:00:18

time. No, I'm just, I'm, you wanted to be

1:00:20

the first to ever do it. No, I'm just

1:00:22

curious. I'm curious about, because it's such, it's so

1:00:24

impr- it's so impractical. That's the only reason why

1:00:26

I'm asking. Listen, I have plenty of friends that I

1:00:28

have said this myself. I'm like, I just wish

1:00:30

this person I'm, you know, who I'm trying to get away

1:00:32

from, I just wish a truck would hit them. They'd

1:00:35

be dead rather than divorced. Anybody who's been

1:00:37

through a divorce, myself included, has had the

1:00:39

fantasy of it would just be easier if

1:00:41

they died. Yeah, maybe they'll get COVID really

1:00:43

bad. But they weren't getting divorced. The whole

1:00:45

point was they weren't getting divorced. And I'm

1:00:47

just, and I'm curious, and I

1:00:50

agree that that one line in the

1:00:52

tape sounds really bad. But I also

1:00:54

know that the whole rest of the

1:00:56

tape was not, like, hearable.

1:00:58

So much so that Greg's dad in court, like,

1:01:00

threw the headphones off and said, I can't hear

1:01:02

this damn thing. And the jurors had to listen

1:01:04

to it. And they also had a transcript of

1:01:06

what it said in front of them so that

1:01:08

they were listening to words that were already had

1:01:10

already been decided what was said by somebody else.

1:01:13

And so there's just a lot of problems with

1:01:15

the audio tape for me already. And like, I'm

1:01:17

not saying I agree, it's the

1:01:19

worst looking piece of evidence.

1:01:22

I'm not disagreeing with that in any way.

1:01:24

But I also, I just still think that

1:01:26

the truth is somewhere, not where the state

1:01:28

says it is. I really, really do. Ellen,

1:01:30

did you know that I am super sensitive

1:01:33

to smells? Like I've got a nose like

1:01:35

a hound dog. Is that why the last

1:01:37

time we went on a plane together, you

1:01:40

switch seats? Let's not get into that. Nobody

1:01:42

would be switching any seats if everybody used

1:01:44

Lumi. Lumi is sort of a game changer.

1:01:46

That whole body deodorant they have, I don't

1:01:49

know what's in it, but I do know

1:01:51

it was designed by an OBGYN to work

1:01:53

not only in your pits, but your feet,

1:01:55

your privates, and everywhere else you get odor.

1:01:58

So no matter where you use it, Lumi. clinically

1:02:00

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1:02:02

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1:02:05

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1:02:09

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1:02:11

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1:02:13

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1:02:15

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1:02:17

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1:02:19

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1:02:30

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1:02:32

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1:02:36

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1:02:39

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1:02:41

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1:02:43

case. Kevin and Rabia,

1:02:45

let me ask you, so if

1:02:48

you think that she was the

1:02:50

mastermind behind it all, do you

1:02:52

think that the way that the

1:02:54

charges landed was equitable? Do you

1:02:57

think that all the charges the

1:02:59

way they were were fair? My

1:03:02

opinion on this has evolved over time and

1:03:05

I think now that the boys

1:03:07

who are now in their late 40s are

1:03:09

out and you can kind of see

1:03:11

you know a

1:03:13

more sophisticated view of what

1:03:16

time in prison is supposed to

1:03:18

be, about rehabilitation, about grace. What's

1:03:21

the largest percentage of people who

1:03:23

go into jail who are gonna eventually join

1:03:26

us in society? It's like you know 98% or

1:03:29

whatever. So if

1:03:31

that can be afforded to the boys, it

1:03:34

seemed like life without parole was

1:03:36

pretty harsh. Murder

1:03:39

for hire was not one

1:03:41

of the charges right? They didn't, I

1:03:43

mean it was a kind of theory of

1:03:46

the case. Murder for hire is

1:03:48

a capital offense in New Hampshire. No one's

1:03:50

been put to death in New Hampshire since

1:03:52

1932 and we currently have one person on

1:03:54

death row. We

1:03:56

don't have an electric chair they're talking

1:03:59

about maybe someday we'll be there. build the gallows. But

1:04:01

they decided not to go that way. This

1:04:03

was like the harshest thing that they could

1:04:05

they could give her. It's

1:04:07

a long way of saying I starting

1:04:09

to think that maybe she should have gotten

1:04:12

something you know even if

1:04:14

you wanted to give her 40 years. You mean like Eric

1:04:16

Winhurst did 15 to 35 and he

1:04:18

got out after 15? Well also substitute

1:04:21

Gypsy Rose. Yeah. I mean

1:04:24

Gypsy Rose Blanchard would be

1:04:26

the Pam Smart and

1:04:29

she served seven and a half years

1:04:31

and that dude is

1:04:33

in jail. But so it's actually literally

1:04:36

the opposite. So how can anyone

1:04:38

advocate for her and have none

1:04:42

none of that like theme

1:04:45

for Pam Smart? I think that's where

1:04:47

the sexism comes in in this case. Yeah. Yeah.

1:04:49

We have we have an analogous case in

1:04:51

New Hampshire that we wrote about where the guy

1:04:54

named Eric Winhurst while he was in high school

1:04:57

actually shot and killed a man for his friend

1:04:59

who he who she said that her dad was

1:05:01

molesting her and it was threatening her life. He

1:05:04

shot and killed him, lied about it

1:05:06

for 20 years, was eventually caught. He was sentenced

1:05:08

to 15 to 35 years. He took

1:05:10

a plea. He was sentenced to 15 to 35 years.

1:05:12

No no no no it was seven and a half to 15. No

1:05:15

it was 15 to 35. Okay. All right. And and and the girl who was now a

1:05:17

woman at the time got

1:05:23

two years because

1:05:25

you know she was she originally took a

1:05:27

plea wasn't gonna get any time but then

1:05:30

she got two years. She was quote the

1:05:32

mastermind but like he had all these character

1:05:34

witnesses, had all these people, great guy

1:05:36

blah blah blah blah. He fucking pulled

1:05:38

the trigger. Bill Flynn pulled

1:05:40

the trigger. I think Bill Flynn's sentence was

1:05:42

appropriate. He was a child. Right?

1:05:44

Pam Smart did not pull the trigger

1:05:47

and it's like the evidence is kind

1:05:49

of tenuous and the trial

1:05:51

was tainted. Like we cannot. Like

1:05:53

can we talk about all the

1:05:55

stuff that went wrong in this

1:05:57

trial? What didn't? While I-

1:06:00

I'm not a she was a mastermind behind

1:06:02

that. I do agree with you that she

1:06:04

deserves. I think she deserves a fair trial,

1:06:06

a new trial I don't know that bid

1:06:08

for an outcome. Frankly, if none of this

1:06:10

has happened in this trouble but you got

1:06:12

you guys want to talk? I refuse have

1:06:14

a little bit of about like how this

1:06:16

went haywire. Sure, basically the jury is Ers

1:06:19

were not sequestered and this was the first

1:06:21

ever televised gavel to gavel trial and history

1:06:23

of the United States. When the first ever

1:06:25

televised trial with first ever televised gavel to

1:06:27

gavel trial. There. Is no doubt

1:06:29

even Paul Maggi out of the prosecutor

1:06:31

says it's not true. There is no

1:06:33

doubt the jurors are watching the coverage

1:06:35

of it at night because later the

1:06:37

jurors talked about how they knew the

1:06:40

world was watching, right? And. That

1:06:42

there were so much pressure because the world

1:06:44

was watching and we knew we had to

1:06:46

just sit there. And we also had a

1:06:48

juror who was making ah audio recordings of

1:06:50

herself every night, recording her thoughts and feelings

1:06:53

about it and talking about how they talked

1:06:55

about it. In the jury room, we also

1:06:57

had a breathless reporter. Have. Always that

1:06:59

reporters name Phil Spencer and what was he

1:07:01

doing? Random still spends of those manson and

1:07:04

feel like you sure that your next little.

1:07:06

All right there. Yeah, I know those

1:07:08

before my time, but does he owe

1:07:10

less day a long shadow on the.

1:07:13

Broadcast. Journalism in New Hampshire well

1:07:15

I remember Bill he was of also

1:07:17

of working as a. Bartender.

1:07:19

On the see. Was really like he was like

1:07:22

fall when. Of a he was like

1:07:24

really trying to get the the lead on

1:07:26

aura inside scoop so he would try to

1:07:28

be stocking some as a different friends. Witnesses

1:07:31

users like falling them to bars

1:07:33

isn't repair. Hence the reporters were

1:07:35

so loud in the court room

1:07:37

that the jury could hear them

1:07:39

talking about the reporting they were

1:07:41

doing in the courtroom. It was.

1:07:44

Wildly inappropriate. like while the judge

1:07:46

also refuse to change as hinges

1:07:48

I knew was I thought was

1:07:50

practicing should have been reversible error

1:07:52

It even though the. That defense

1:07:54

did ask the jury is sequestered was used to

1:07:56

do it until the very last day of deliberations.

1:07:58

Like the file they do. There was a

1:08:00

question like it matters at that point, but you know

1:08:03

these are issues that came up on appeal. Were.

1:08:05

Denied but in a direct appeal as shit. Anyways

1:08:07

of know you can win anything. In

1:08:09

New Hampshire especially the ah the Subsides, it

1:08:11

seems like was very open to all this

1:08:13

media attention and he joked about how he

1:08:16

helped Clint Eastwood would play him in the

1:08:18

movie and later was like I was really

1:08:20

be. As. Liberty. But given the fact

1:08:22

that they seem to the upswing, no. Control

1:08:24

over the media it seemed.

1:08:26

Like he was perfectly fine with it And. I would

1:08:28

like to refute that misled. Wait a second for

1:08:30

guys that as you thought robin come back to

1:08:33

meekly school. When I was gonna say as out

1:08:35

the proof that this was a media circus and

1:08:37

probably had a real. Serious. Impact on

1:08:39

the outcome. The case is the fact that

1:08:41

they've been made changes to the rules around

1:08:43

the stuff later on and those changes would

1:08:45

have come about unless. All. These people

1:08:47

who were witnessing with of s is happening right now and

1:08:49

you wouldn't have I needed those rules Be in. Place. And

1:08:51

now there's a lotta rules bus. When. And

1:08:53

if media can cover something and how many

1:08:56

cameras all this stuff right there. but none

1:08:58

of that and how long it sure has

1:09:00

to wait before talking about a case afterwards.

1:09:02

That rule was implemented because a juror was

1:09:04

literally writing a column for the Boston Globe

1:09:06

about why he convicted him smart very next

1:09:09

day, the very next and. It's

1:09:11

a came out a couple days afterwards which

1:09:13

many had to have been writing it while

1:09:15

he was deliberating while like why I can

1:09:17

be contained in contact with with with the

1:09:19

Boston Globe which they pay him fifteen thousand

1:09:21

dollars for that story heavily uss. Was

1:09:23

considered sort of the long lasting legend,

1:09:25

especially in New Hampshire. With this happened

1:09:27

was that. This. Was a media

1:09:30

circus and that the media presence

1:09:32

in the court room was delayed.

1:09:34

Serious to this proceedings and on

1:09:36

what actually happened. What are you

1:09:38

looking at? L you reach a.

1:09:41

Deal at Syria as on harmful come as

1:09:43

a bit. The great would have learned he

1:09:45

likes these. That's the way I read or

1:09:47

write it down there head guy you want

1:09:49

to sound law is. That's what you need to, you

1:09:51

have to a couple of words like. That pull. Us. So.

1:09:54

That oh no, I'm the kind of attorney. I just

1:09:56

stick my son this out and such. Perfect. Two

1:09:58

people think it's like would they would see. like

1:10:00

a courtroom hubbub on TV or a movie

1:10:03

where there's hundreds of cameras in the back

1:10:05

and there's all sorts of flash bulbs going

1:10:07

off and murmuring and things like that. It

1:10:09

was what's called pool coverage because

1:10:11

they worked this out ahead of time

1:10:13

meaning there'd be one camera in the

1:10:16

courtroom and that camera would feed out

1:10:18

to the rest of the media outside

1:10:20

of the courtroom. What was

1:10:22

in the courtroom was which is very

1:10:24

common today especially is that

1:10:27

you'd have one camera and one

1:10:29

person locked in one place very

1:10:31

much like OJ and then one pool

1:10:33

photographer, still photographer who's authorized to take

1:10:35

still photographs but not 50 or 30.

1:10:38

The reason why people believe that

1:10:41

is because there was always these

1:10:43

scenes of the media scrum, people

1:10:45

yelling questions. Outside, yes. Now

1:10:47

that was always happening in the hallway. But there were

1:10:50

kind of reporters in the courtroom. No. Yes,

1:10:52

there were. But I'm talking to... Rebecca,

1:10:55

do you feel like you have not had enough time to

1:10:57

talk about this case? All right. Let

1:10:59

me tell you what I know because I talked

1:11:02

to reporters who were there and I worked with

1:11:04

them and this is what happened. All

1:11:06

this stuff that we saw

1:11:08

as far as the lasting

1:11:11

image of the media frenzy

1:11:13

was happening in the hallway

1:11:15

because when there'd be a break, she'd get

1:11:17

up and she'd walk to wherever, clickity click

1:11:19

click, then she'd come back, clickity click click.

1:11:22

And those were the big images

1:11:24

that we remember inside the courtroom.

1:11:27

Now, you can always talk about what is

1:11:29

the effect of cameras in the courtroom. It's

1:11:31

a great thing to discuss and whatever it

1:11:34

is, probably an effect here. But as far

1:11:36

as like that this was crazy media stuff,

1:11:38

that was not the case. And

1:11:41

it actually... But Kevin, the difference between how I'm

1:11:43

looking at this in terms of media coverage and

1:11:45

you're looking at it, I don't give a shit

1:11:47

about any of that. I'm talking about when the

1:11:49

jury or others or even the jury pool in

1:11:52

general, what they're being subjected to, like

1:11:55

when they're consuming the coverage, the

1:11:57

headlines, Black Widow, Ice Princess. seductress,

1:12:00

whore, whatever. I mean,

1:12:02

it's all inquirer, tabloidy,

1:12:05

and she hasn't even gone

1:12:07

national, even international, hasn't

1:12:09

gone to trial yet. I'm talking about

1:12:11

the perception that they are being fed

1:12:14

by the media coverage, that

1:12:16

we all were fed by the media coverage. And I wonder,

1:12:18

Rebecca, I mean, how much awareness do you have? I was

1:12:20

in high school as well when this was going on, but

1:12:22

I remember looking at that, and as a kid in high

1:12:24

school thinking, ew, she's so gross, that

1:12:27

is so disgusting. She did it. She did it.

1:12:29

She a hoe, she a hoe, she a hoe. We

1:12:32

all kind of just believed that, and the facts kind

1:12:34

of didn't matter, although when I get to the facts,

1:12:36

I still think she's... I

1:12:38

mean, that's the whole thing, is it's like that's why

1:12:41

I know the state's story isn't true. Like, I know

1:12:43

it. I know it with my... every

1:12:45

fiber of my being, because the

1:12:47

story was written... Wow. The story

1:12:49

was written before she was arrested.

1:12:52

The story was written by the cops, just

1:12:55

like Roland Lamy wrote the Jason Carroll

1:12:57

story before they even talked to him.

1:12:59

You're trying to tug on my innocence

1:13:01

lawyer heartstrings, but it ain't working this

1:13:03

time. No. The story

1:13:06

about her was written before

1:13:08

evidence was gathered. The

1:13:11

story was written about her. The many stories

1:13:13

written about her afterwards, I think, have harmed

1:13:15

her, you know, all the Nicole Kidman portrayal

1:13:17

and to die for, the book. That's the

1:13:19

way she's saying it. Which is fiction, which

1:13:21

is scripted and fiction, and people, when they

1:13:23

remember this case, they actually are thinking

1:13:25

about the movie, not the real case.

1:13:28

That is so true. I actually was

1:13:30

thinking that when I was thinking about...

1:13:32

because it's Joaquin Phoenix, right? Yeah. And

1:13:34

the author of the book that it was based on,

1:13:36

Joyce Mader, many years later, wrote in

1:13:39

support of, you know,

1:13:41

her effort to get either reduced sentence or

1:13:43

parole by saying, if my

1:13:46

fictional portrayal of this story has

1:13:48

any impact on your perception

1:13:50

of her, that didn't exist. Like, you know, that's

1:13:52

not what I meant. None of it was supposed

1:13:54

to be based on her as a real character.

1:13:57

But That's what it kind of like lingers in

1:13:59

the... In our imaginations, all this

1:14:01

not gone girl for Scott Peterson's wasn't

1:14:03

Joyce. Maynard, your father's neighbor. Guess

1:14:06

is our neighbor to. And

1:14:08

she was. She was like. says he

1:14:10

sounds are sixteen year old girlfriend us.

1:14:13

And then when she grows dropped out of

1:14:15

Princeton to I'd have even six pm and

1:14:17

seed. In she can I just

1:14:19

ask a question about the new evidence?

1:14:21

How much information do we have about

1:14:24

that that new witness that overheard and

1:14:26

does that hold any water? So five

1:14:28

years ago, a defense investigator who was

1:14:30

doing pro bono work for I'm Pamela.

1:14:33

It. It's held his interview. With.

1:14:36

Say. Meghan I'm Kelly Seven calories and gifts

1:14:38

and in the interview he said well we

1:14:40

the and you know much you know as

1:14:42

much as the named Paul My God and

1:14:45

guess all ago and he's like everywhere So

1:14:47

he was also part of the shows on

1:14:49

the panel. Any. Have the defense

1:14:51

investigator was like Tom Nichols his name

1:14:53

he's like I. We have a new

1:14:55

witness that I have recently discovered This

1:14:57

witnesses they were at a party would

1:14:59

believe the night before the murder and Billie

1:15:01

said i'm gonna kill the sky and.

1:15:04

This. Person was liable to spam, know anything

1:15:06

about what you're gonna do and he said

1:15:08

no doubt this is information is shared. On.

1:15:11

A Tv show, but I don't think it's ever

1:15:13

been raised in a court of law like. That's

1:15:15

the kind of thing you'd use the basis for.

1:15:17

Like a new trial, Write a post

1:15:19

conviction hearing For a new trial. Nobody

1:15:21

to raise it. My guess is that they could

1:15:23

not get that witness. Said. Actually

1:15:26

testify to it or give an affidavit.

1:15:28

Or verify it. It's been five years

1:15:30

since he said that on Tv. I have a feeling

1:15:32

that that's not good evidence. She's. Out

1:15:34

of Options. This is coming out of options now is

1:15:36

A. I think the fact that she is, she's out

1:15:38

of appeals to see how the one in was it.

1:15:40

Ninety One I think that's. Not. Seals

1:15:43

had one a couple your mother as she has

1:15:45

had a case in front of a New Hampshire

1:15:47

Supreme court south as the Governor for clemency. And

1:15:50

he said oh yeah, I read that letter.

1:15:52

That's rough. We have a question. I just

1:15:54

won a pulitzer. The red very lightly to

1:15:56

some light little tad. sure. i don't

1:15:58

know what happened i never know happen, I can

1:16:00

be swayed, I can wake up in

1:16:04

a situation where I'm not in any

1:16:06

position of power. Do

1:16:13

you think that's what it is that we're

1:16:16

just taking her side because we're painting the

1:16:18

picture of an innocent woman? I just want

1:16:20

to be clear, that is not what I

1:16:22

think. You

1:16:25

said it and it was passing and I just want to go back

1:16:27

to it for a minute. I think that maybe

1:16:29

we will all agree on this

1:16:31

point that a lot of the

1:16:33

antipathy towards Pam Smart is based

1:16:35

in misogyny and anti-feminism

1:16:38

and the femme fatale and

1:16:40

all that. Who

1:16:42

doesn't love an evil woman and somebody can blame it on.

1:16:45

And so I feel like

1:16:48

in some cases it does feel

1:16:50

like maybe the defense against her

1:16:53

is that because she was mistreated,

1:16:55

because she was a woman, that

1:16:57

she needs to be exonerated because

1:17:00

she was a woman as opposed to

1:17:02

exonerate her because she did

1:17:04

do it and I think that she did. Or

1:17:07

not even exonerate her because even if she was

1:17:09

a part of it, I am

1:17:11

mostly fall in the camp of I don't think the

1:17:13

punishment fit the crime no matter what. Even

1:17:16

if tomorrow we woke up and she actually was

1:17:18

like, I think I'm with you on that. By the way,

1:17:21

this isn't the hill I want to die on. No, no,

1:17:23

no. You said it and I

1:17:25

was like, because I am always very careful

1:17:27

about that. I am a feminist, but I

1:17:29

definitely never, I always try and

1:17:32

pull my feminist brain out of it

1:17:34

and not just like always take a

1:17:36

woman's side. Yeah. Which I think

1:17:38

I proved in the Never Heard in Johnny Deaf episode.

1:17:41

I mean in New Hampshire, Pam Smart

1:17:43

is our Confederate flag. It's like it makes

1:17:46

no fucking sense, but this is the thing

1:17:48

where, oh no, it's absolutely, she absolutely did

1:17:50

it. Whatever. She's been

1:17:52

there forever and I feel like

1:17:55

probably she deserves some

1:17:57

kind of, I don't want to say clemency. It

1:18:00

would be called Clementine. Time-sucker. If any

1:18:02

kind of relief would be called Clementine. I mean, like, she

1:18:04

went in when she's 20-something and, you know, she's

1:18:06

going to spend, what, 60 years behind bars. I

1:18:08

mean, I know that's why she's in prison. Until

1:18:10

she's dead. Until she's dead, yeah. The bills were denied in 1991

1:18:12

and 97. She had a

1:18:14

federal habeas denied in 2002. It was

1:18:16

upheld in 2004. In

1:18:18

2019 and 22, commutation petitions were

1:18:21

denied. In

1:18:23

2022, the commutation petition, apparently the governor

1:18:25

and the executive board were making these

1:18:27

decisions in less than three minutes in

1:18:29

consideration of her application. So just a

1:18:32

year ago, in February 2023, Mark

1:18:34

Sisti, who is still defense counsel, appeared before

1:18:36

the New Hampshire Supreme Court, asking them to

1:18:38

compel the executive counsel to reconsider a full

1:18:41

hearing because it only took three minutes. But

1:18:44

a few months later, the Supreme Court denied

1:18:46

that as well. And you

1:18:48

are right, Rebecca. She is shit out of luck

1:18:50

right now. Do you know why?

1:18:52

It's political. It would be unpopular

1:18:54

politically to say anything other than- It's

1:18:56

our Confederate flag. I

1:18:59

mean, I guess that's a weird way of putting it, but sure.

1:19:01

By the way, I don't know if you just made the podcast

1:19:03

or if this is what we were talking about earlier, but Paul

1:19:05

Maggiato, Rebecca's defense attorney. Yeah,

1:19:07

I wrote divorce attorney. He held

1:19:09

me in a post divorce matter and it was

1:19:11

so weird. Yeah, and get to go up

1:19:13

and say, is this your email? It just

1:19:15

was like, oh wow. I'll tell you something.

1:19:18

He represented me in a matter in court,

1:19:20

like a minor matter, and

1:19:23

I would not want him to prosecute me,

1:19:25

but he was a great lawyer for me.

1:19:28

No, he comes across like a shark. The man comes

1:19:30

across like a shark. Everything, this giant

1:19:32

calculator and put it out and started making

1:19:34

the guy like you. He made

1:19:37

somebody understand, do calculations about their

1:19:39

income and stuff on a giant,

1:19:41

one of those old people calculators

1:19:43

with giant buttons. No pressure. It

1:19:47

was so illustrative. Let me just put it that way. I was

1:19:49

like, I would not want him to prosecute me. He's good at

1:19:51

his job. Mark Sisti's also good at his job, although I will

1:19:54

say that one juror who was hoping to sell

1:19:58

her tapes for $25,000. she's recording

1:20:00

herself every night at the end of like the trial.

1:20:02

In one of her recordings, and you actually can hear

1:20:05

the audio of this, she says that if I had

1:20:07

known that the sentence was going to be that, I

1:20:09

probably would have hung the jury. She was the

1:20:12

one who wasn't quite sure and quite

1:20:14

bought the story, but she also said that

1:20:16

the defense rested today, but there was really

1:20:18

no defense. The jury didn't know what the

1:20:22

consequences would be. They didn't know what the

1:20:24

possibilities of the sentence were. Well, no jury

1:20:26

does. Did that woman ever turn those recordings

1:20:28

into a podcast? Well, they were in the

1:20:30

documentary captivated,

1:20:34

which was on HBO about 10 years

1:20:36

ago. Yeah, it's just waiting to be

1:20:39

a podcast. Well, here is the good

1:20:41

news. Rebecca and Kevin, we do a

1:20:43

little thing called A Couple More

1:20:45

Things on our Patreon. After

1:20:47

the episode, you know whenever you record an episode

1:20:49

and you say, I should have said that, I

1:20:52

should have said this. So the good

1:20:54

news is we can come back, talk for

1:20:56

another half an hour, and see

1:20:58

where we land after we hear the

1:21:00

podcast. We throw that on our Patreon

1:21:02

because there is so, it is.

1:21:05

It's kind of an emotional case. I know we're

1:21:07

not supposed to think of it like that, but

1:21:10

it really is. I mean, unless

1:21:12

one of these guys comes and says, you know

1:21:14

what, we were lying all those years. We took

1:21:16

the plea. We changed our story, but until

1:21:19

then, do you have any parting

1:21:21

words for us? I'm

1:21:24

pretty clear where you landed, but

1:21:26

give us a definitive answer of where

1:21:29

you think this all lands because I'm

1:21:31

a little flip-floppy. Kevin, you can go,

1:21:33

you know, you have some flip-floppy ideas.

1:21:36

I will say that I believe

1:21:38

that Pam Smart could manipulate

1:21:41

Billy Flynn who, you know, got his

1:21:43

friends to help him out. To do

1:21:45

this crime, I think that that's accurate.

1:21:47

I don't think all the

1:21:49

media coverage, the legend of what it

1:21:51

came down to is actually What

1:21:54

Happened. But I Also believe that maybe, and I

1:21:56

believe it today, but I didn't believe it at

1:21:58

the time, that. Tensions

1:22:00

was excessive that you probably shouldn't

1:22:02

spend her whole life in jail.

1:22:05

For. This crime on middle a

1:22:07

very stiff sentences you know. When.

1:22:09

He forty years some play that and she

1:22:12

serve that and. You know is that. What?

1:22:15

Is the possibility that he will have

1:22:17

her next lover killed? You know it's

1:22:19

probably pretty low. so ah my it,

1:22:22

she probably will not be a danger

1:22:24

to society. That two master's degrees now?

1:22:26

Yeah, she's gotten out of the minutes. I

1:22:28

then. I think that

1:22:30

either. She. Didn't orchestrate

1:22:32

her husband's murder or it's

1:22:35

a nice dahmer. More simpler

1:22:37

narrative then the incredibly complicated

1:22:39

ah one that to stay

1:22:42

put forth were talking about.

1:22:45

I'm not at the time

1:22:47

very bright or sophisticated or

1:22:49

mature or or interesting people.

1:22:51

Than. A stay at A Picture

1:22:54

of genius. Bright, mature, interesting,

1:22:56

sophisticated people who plotted together

1:22:58

and came up with this

1:23:00

mastermind plan. Ah well, we're

1:23:02

talking about at narrative that

1:23:05

included her wanting a condo

1:23:07

and furniture that is couple

1:23:09

didn't even own right. So

1:23:11

this is not complicated is

1:23:13

a much simpler story no

1:23:15

matter what happened and I

1:23:18

will really like die on

1:23:20

the hill of how vulnerable.

1:23:22

These young people were and how

1:23:24

good and I mean it. You.

1:23:27

Have to say police are good at their job,

1:23:29

They are good at their job and they are

1:23:31

not like. Like. Evil lead the

1:23:33

police and other places but there are a

1:23:35

couple of them that are very very good

1:23:38

at getting what they want when they go

1:23:40

in and question people and are some of

1:23:42

them are working at that time especially and

1:23:44

those kids were vulnerable. Said there was already

1:23:46

a story written they knew how to get

1:23:49

from those kids. Yeah. As

1:23:51

a sort of alluded to before, if

1:23:53

you listen to some interrogation tapes, they

1:23:55

are good and they get in people's

1:23:57

mind. We've seen it so many times.

1:24:00

Amanda Knox, she was questioned, she

1:24:02

was exhausted, they were speaking in

1:24:05

and out of English and Italian, we've seen

1:24:07

it so many times. So if you ever

1:24:09

think that you just like, you can't just

1:24:11

make up something, I really encourage you to

1:24:14

watch some of those intense interrogations on YouTube,

1:24:16

because you will, like Rebecca said, you will

1:24:18

definitely see, it is absolutely

1:24:20

possible. You guys are

1:24:23

the best, you are so smart, I love

1:24:25

the way you can respectfully

1:24:28

disagree and talk through

1:24:30

ideas and yeah, yeah.

1:24:33

It's not funny. Yeah, someone will

1:24:35

call the cops. Please give our

1:24:37

loyal and lovely listeners all the information on where

1:24:40

they can find you, how they can connect and

1:24:42

how they can support you guys. Please, please, please

1:24:44

listen to Crime Writers On, we actually review true

1:24:46

crime media, we talk about whether it's ethical, whether

1:24:48

it's good, whether you should listen to it and

1:24:50

watch it, we give a thumbs up or thumbs

1:24:52

down. And we also have

1:24:55

an awesome Patreon where we make tons

1:24:57

of extra stuff, we have an advice

1:24:59

show called Mary With Podcast that Kevin

1:25:01

and I do, we've got book club,

1:25:03

we've got tons of stuff, that's patreon.com/partners

1:25:05

in crime media. And. And I

1:25:07

have a podcast called, These are Their Stories,

1:25:09

The Law and Order Podcast, where we take

1:25:12

an episode of either Criminal Intent, SVU or

1:25:14

Original Recipe, we shit on the episode for

1:25:16

about 35 minutes and

1:25:18

then we talk about the real life case that inspired the

1:25:20

show. It's very funny. We have great guests and I'm looking

1:25:22

at you Ellen, you're gonna have to pay this forward. It's

1:25:25

hilarious, it's totally hilarious. I hope so. Well,

1:25:27

you two are certainly two of our favorite

1:25:29

people and we would love to have you

1:25:31

back for a couple more things because I

1:25:33

have a couple more things I wanna say,

1:25:35

but I fear the four of us could

1:25:37

talk for a very long

1:25:39

time. Well, that is all for today.

1:25:42

Thank you all so much for joining

1:25:44

us. Many thanks to our dear friends,

1:25:46

Rebecca Lavoie and Kevin Flynn for being

1:25:48

just the epitome of a perfect podcast

1:25:50

guest. And thank you to all of

1:25:52

you. Thank you to all of our

1:25:55

patron supporters, especially our star

1:25:57

witnesses who are here with us in the chat

1:25:59

every episode. If you'd like to

1:26:01

be a member of our Patreon, we

1:26:04

sure would love your support. You can

1:26:06

head over to patreon.com/rabiaanellen. There you'll find

1:26:08

lots of bonus content, including About Damn

1:26:11

Crime, our SpeakPipe episodes, a couple more

1:26:13

things, as well as our watch party.

1:26:15

We sit, we watch, we chat,

1:26:17

and we have a grand old

1:26:19

time. Please also take some

1:26:21

time to give us a five-star review

1:26:24

on iTunes or Spotify or wherever you

1:26:26

get your podcasts. Tell your friends

1:26:28

why you love us, spreading the word really does

1:26:30

help us out, and we are always

1:26:32

so grateful for any kind of support

1:26:34

you give, whether it be being a

1:26:36

patron or supporting us on social media.

1:26:38

We can't thank you enough. Thank

1:26:40

you so much. Until then, thanks, Ravia. Love you

1:26:43

guys. Love you Ellen. Bye everyone. Sometime

1:26:53

in the early 80s, REO

1:26:55

Speedwagon's airplane made an unannounced middle-of-the-night landing. This

1:26:57

is my friend Kyle McLaughlin, the star of

1:27:00

Twin Peaks, and he's telling me about how

1:27:02

he discovered a real-life Twin Peaks

1:27:04

in rural North Carolina, not far from where he filmed

1:27:07

Blue Velvet. What was on the plane was

1:27:09

copious amounts of drugs coming in from South

1:27:11

America. Supposedly

1:27:14

Pablo Escobar went looking for other spots, quiet, out-of-the-way

1:27:16

places to bring in his cocaine. My

1:27:20

name is

1:27:23

Joshua Davis, and I'm an investigative reporter. Kyle

1:27:27

and I talk all the time about the strange

1:27:30

things we come across, but nothing was quite as

1:27:32

strange as what we found in Varnam Town, North

1:27:34

Carolina. There's crooked cops,

1:27:36

brother against brother. Everyone's got a story

1:27:38

to tell, but does the truth even

1:27:41

exist? Welcome to

1:27:43

Varnam Town. Varnam

1:27:45

Town is available.