0:00

It's easy to lose sleep when you're

0:03

worried about your health insurance plan. But

0:06

when you have a family counting on you to take

0:08

care of them, having the right

0:10

coverage is more important than ever. That's

0:13

why Anthem Blue Cross and Blue Shield is

0:15

here to help. With

0:18

low to no cost plans for you

0:20

and your family. So

0:23

you never go it alone. That's

0:25

our Anthem. Click to

0:28

learn more. So

0:30

you know what Ellen, nowadays kids

0:32

are really like enterprising, really entrepreneurial.

0:34

And my 15 year old has

0:36

decided she wants to launch her

0:39

own line of clothing. Do it

0:41

Hanifa. Yeah, absolutely. I'm so excited for

0:43

her. And you know what I told her? I said

0:45

that's fine. You can do it all with Shopify. I

0:47

swear to God we had this conversation. Absolutely.

0:50

Shopify is a global commerce

0:52

platform that helps you at

0:54

every stage of your business.

0:56

Whether you're 15 or

0:58

50, you can launch your own shop

1:00

at any time. It is so user

1:02

friendly. Shopify helps you turn browsers into

1:04

buyers with the Internet's best converting checkout

1:06

up to 36% better. And

1:09

here's the thing, like whether you are starting

1:11

up or whether you've had an in-person business

1:13

forever, I mean like Shopify can help you

1:16

at every stage of your business and growing

1:18

it. Sign up for a $1

1:21

per month trial period

1:23

at shopify.com/solve the case,

1:26

all lower case. Go to shopify.com/solve

1:28

the case now to grow your

1:30

business no matter what stage you're

1:32

in. shopify.com/solve the case. Cha-ching.

1:37

Hi, Rabia. Hey, Ellen. How

1:39

are you? I'm good. I'm happy. You see the

1:41

smile on my face. I'm excited. Why are you

1:43

so excited? Because it has been a lot. Today's

1:45

episode has been a long time coming, girl. Been

1:47

a long time coming. This

2:00

is actually no joke for,

2:02

well first of

2:04

all, welcome Hilary Burton to the show. Oh,

2:07

I'm the one that's excited. I'm the one

2:09

that's geeking out. How long,

2:11

first of all, the minute

2:13

we, Hilary was gonna come

2:15

on, she was like, I'm choosing this case, that

2:18

is it. When was, that was like 1942-ish around?

2:22

It was before I got my gray hair. It was

2:25

so long ago. I

2:28

love the hair though, of course it is. This has

2:30

been scheduled and rescheduled

2:33

more times than my first wedding. Listen,

2:36

it's- Hilary's busy, Ellen. She

2:39

is busy. Well, also,

2:41

like I really wanted, this

2:44

was a me time kind of thing. This was

2:46

like a pleasurable experience for me to be able

2:48

to do this with you guys. So I didn't

2:51

want it like mashed up in between all the

2:53

other shit you do when you're doing like a press

2:55

tour. So now that I have a

2:57

little bit of room to breathe, I get to

2:59

have a ladies afternoon with you guys. I love

3:01

it. That's what I wanted. And for those of

3:03

you watching on YouTube, Hilary is rocking

3:05

my most favorite thing and that is a

3:08

wallpaper accent wall. I

3:10

have- Girl, I got a velvet curtain for

3:12

you on this side. I still have to

3:14

steam out the wrinkles. This

3:17

is my girl space. Are you a professional podcaster,

3:19

Hilary? Cause that is a very podcast, professional podcast

3:21

that is based on me. Drama queens, that's what

3:23

I'm saying. Yeah, I do drama queens. And

3:26

we have, it couldn't happen here, the podcast,

3:28

which is- Oh, I didn't get a podcast

3:30

for that, okay. Yeah, it's a spin off

3:33

of the TV show that I can talk about now

3:35

cause the strike's over. We do a show on Sundance

3:37

that you and I met on, which

3:40

was like a huge highlight for me. I

3:42

got a call from the producer and he's like, do you know

3:45

Robby Up? And I was like, what? She's

3:47

coming on our show. And I had to

3:49

be cool and it was so- I mean, you

3:51

covered a case that is so near and dear to

3:53

my heart and you know, I mean, like it's still

3:55

plodding along for Greg Lance to fill in prison. And

3:57

you know, like he just made- me

4:00

a, did Greg ever build anything for you?

4:02

Oh, I got a house. Yeah. I

4:04

got a house, but he has recently made

4:06

me a pink casket. And

4:08

I got a text message from his mom and it

4:11

just said, Greg made a casket for you.

4:13

And I'm like, I feel, I, what's

4:15

the context here? So I have

4:17

amazing guy. Um, and so, you know, Hillary, I can't

4:20

wait till he comes home because we'll both be there.

4:22

Well, that's it. You and I are going to go

4:24

to Tennessee together and work on that case. And I'm

4:26

excited about that. I'll get them out. I'll come make

4:28

Instagram stories. Yes, please. You do that too. That's

4:31

what I'll do. Yeah. We started doing this podcast

4:33

version of it couldn't happen here because you can

4:35

only fit so much information into 42 minutes

4:38

of television. And we were covering cases

4:41

where there's people like Greg who are

4:43

trapped in prison and they need everyone

4:45

to have all the details. So we

4:47

covered two cases this year, one in

4:49

North Carolina and another in Texas. And

4:51

they drive me crazy. They make me

4:53

stay up at night. They make me

4:55

go down rabbit holes like this case,

4:58

like this case, which we will get to you.

5:00

But this is the time that all

5:03

of our guests hate because we just like sit

5:05

and embarrass you for a little bit. And we're

5:08

talking about this. Talk about all

5:10

the things you've done. Hillary is

5:13

an actress, also a mom of

5:15

two. You probably know

5:17

her from One Tree Hill or

5:19

Grey's Anatomy or her movies

5:23

or the reboot of

5:25

Lethal Weapon. But I'm going to embarrass you and

5:27

tell you, do you know where I first know

5:29

you from? Please don't be mad at me. I'm

5:31

not. What's going to make me mad? Well, like

5:33

in my mind, when I hear your name, do

5:35

you know what I think of? No. TRL.

5:39

Oh, we were fresh babes right

5:42

out of the womb on that. Oh,

5:44

is she going to be mad about

5:46

that? I don't know. But you've done

5:48

everything. And now, like you produce and

5:51

you podcast and obviously you do a ton of

5:53

charity work. But how are you loving the podcast

5:56

space? Because you guys are nailing it. I don't

5:58

know. I almost said a bad word. this cuss

6:00

on your show? We did. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. No.

6:03

OK. Yeah. No. It's so

6:05

much fucking easier for me, because I came

6:07

up as a VJ learning how

6:10

to look at information and relay information.

6:12

And that was my job for years. Yeah.

6:15

And the acting thing I'd been doing since I was

6:17

a little kid. But that also was something that made

6:19

a lot of other people in my life happy. Not

6:22

like, I liked it.

6:24

I didn't love it. I love

6:26

it more when I get to work with my friends. But

6:29

hosting and being able to

6:31

boil down information into

6:34

a palatable form so

6:36

that it can be relayed to an

6:38

audience is something that I found

6:40

I was good at. And I really liked doing.

6:42

And I liked connecting with people. And so being

6:44

able to come full circle and go back

6:46

to that as a grown up is

6:48

cool, right? Yeah. I never thought of that. I

6:51

never thought that that would totally prepare you for

6:53

a podcast. I'm just a grown up VJ lady.

6:55

That's it. It is a

6:58

very natural transition. It makes

7:00

total sense. They got

7:02

all the VJs from radio DJs. I

7:04

think maybe I was the only one that wasn't a

7:06

radio DJ. And so I'm just going back. It's

7:09

like getting your bachelors after you've already

7:11

done all of the real life work.

7:14

Yeah. Just going back. It's easy peasy.

7:16

That's what you mean. Sure, sure. Easy

7:18

peasy. And you're a working

7:20

mom. You have a boy and a girl. How old are they? You

7:23

have a 13-year-old boy. And I have a

7:25

five-year-old girl. Oh, OK.

7:27

They've both inherited this righteous

7:30

sense of justice. They

7:32

have to watch all the programming that I

7:34

watch. Even the five-year-old? Oh, yeah. Oh.

7:36

Oh. Rob, you're backwards. She

7:39

has a six-year-old boy. And why?

7:41

Yeah, you have an older daughter and younger son. Yeah,

7:44

I've called her daughters. So cute. Yeah. But

7:47

my six-year-old knows nothing beyond Legos.

7:49

I feel like a five-year-old girl

7:51

is in a different

7:53

emotional intellectual space than a six-year-old boy. I

7:55

mean, he does the big panda. Yeah. No,

7:58

she thinks that she's friends with you. with all of

8:00

my older kids friends. And when

8:02

they come over, they're there to see her. Certainly

8:06

not him. They are. She's

8:08

right. One day, she won't be wrong,

8:10

and they're terrifying. You've

8:13

got some time, though. Before we jump into three

8:15

quick things, which is the little game we play

8:17

on the show where we each ask you a

8:19

question, and then we each ask everyone the same

8:21

question. I just want to do a follow-up question

8:23

on something you mentioned. You guys

8:26

did, Drama Queens did a live tour. You

8:28

guys did a whole? Oh, yeah. Just tell

8:30

us how many times. Ellen, they had a

8:32

bus. I want a bus. I want a

8:35

tour bus from me and Ellen. No, you

8:37

thought that was a tour bus? Wrong. No,

8:40

we couldn't figure out how to get our

8:42

asses and all of our luggage and

8:45

also the people helping us from city

8:47

to city. We went to Boston and

8:49

then New York City and then

8:51

DC and then Philadelphia. And

8:53

it was getting to be the 11th hour,

8:55

and we still didn't have a game plan that

8:57

made sense. Are we going to fly to every

8:59

place? Are we going to drive? We're

9:02

going to be in multiple cars? And I was like,

9:05

I can figure out how to drive an RV. And

9:07

everyone was like, I don't know, Hillary, can you?

9:10

I love it. I've been driving big cars my whole

9:12

life. I was a kid that learned to drive in

9:14

a suburban in high school. I

9:17

was like, how much harder can an RV be? In

9:21

urban setting. We were

9:24

going through five lanes of traffic trying to make

9:26

your exit. Where would you park it? Would you

9:28

have to find RV parks? Yeah, no, listen,

9:30

I parked at a Food Lion once.

9:33

I parked at a Walmart once. I'm

9:36

the lady in the parking lot with the

9:38

RV just waiting on an Uber to come

9:40

pick her up. Oh my god. Harold,

9:42

the girl from Grey's Anatomy is in a

9:44

big RV over here. I swear. We

9:47

rented it. We

9:50

rented it from a, it's

9:52

like Airbnb, but four RVs. And the man

9:54

that came and delivered it to my house

9:56

was like, you going on like a girls

9:59

weekend or something? You know? Yes,

10:01

sir. It's a bachelorette party. Don't ask any more

10:03

questions. I have never been in an RV. I've

10:05

heard RV stories, but the one thing that prevents

10:07

me from doing the RV thing, because my son

10:09

really wants to do it, is I do understand

10:11

you have to, at some point, pull over and

10:14

open up the toilet. You don't

10:16

even mean empty out the toilet. Who did

10:18

that part? I didn't let anyone use the

10:20

toilet because I'm a monster. Oh, I would

10:22

be you. There you go. I would be

10:24

you. There you go. Can I actually squeeze it?

10:26

I don't care if you have a turtle head

10:28

poking out. It's for show, you guys. That toilet

10:31

is for show. Brilliant. There's no

10:33

nothing on the RV. I

10:35

am with you. You got to squeeze it. Work

10:38

with, like, just, yeah, absolutely. When you're the

10:40

driver, you're allowed to impose rules. I

10:43

love that. We need to do,

10:45

we need to do, like,

10:47

a girls' podcasting mega tour. And then we'll

10:49

get a bus. I

10:52

can drive it now. And by the way, my husband

10:54

made me drive again at Christmas time because we were

10:56

going on a long trip. And he's like, well, now

10:58

that you know how to do this, now that you

11:00

have this skill set, we're going to

11:02

use it. I love it. And so I'm

11:04

the bus driver. This is all Rabia wants in the

11:07

world. I love it. This

11:09

is one of my favorite sentences to say,

11:11

Rabia. This episode of Rabia

11:13

and Ellen is brought to you by Wild

11:15

Grain. Wild Grain is

11:17

the first ever baked from frozen subscription

11:20

box for sourdough breads, fresh pastas, and

11:22

artisanal pastries. Pretty much everything

11:24

that has ever been on the Wild

11:26

Grain website, I have tried. So I

11:28

consider myself a Wild Grain expert. I

11:31

love the bread. The connoisseur, if you will. I

11:33

love the pastas. I love the guacamole.

11:37

True story. True story. I

11:39

was having a conversation with another podcaster today who

11:41

doesn't do host read ads. And she's

11:43

like, is it worth doing? I said, for things like

11:45

Wild Grain, yeah. I said for Wild

11:47

Grain, you want to do it. It really is.

11:50

So in 25 minutes, you can whip

11:53

up gorgeous homemade

11:55

bread that smells like it's fresh from

11:57

the bakery. And you can now. fully

12:00

customize your Wild Grain box so you can

12:02

get any combination of breads or pastas or

12:04

pastries that you like. If you want a

12:07

box of all bread, all pasta, all pastries,

12:09

you can have it. It's yours. Yep, and

12:11

for a limited time you can get $30

12:14

off your first box plus free croissants.

12:16

I said croissants like an American. In

12:18

every box. When

12:20

you go to wildgrain.com/solve the case

12:23

to start your subscription. You heard

12:25

Rabia. Fresh croissants, I said it

12:27

right, in every box and

12:30

$30 off your first box when

12:32

you go to wildgrain.com/solve the case. That's

12:34

wildgrain.com/solve the case or you can use

12:36

promo code solve the case at checkout.

12:38

You can pretend you're a chef like

12:41

me. The nights are slipping

12:44

cold Ellen. They are cold. Not when

12:47

we snuggle. Okay there's that but you

12:49

know what's hard on

12:51

a cold night, harder for me

12:53

than other nights, is actually going

12:55

to sleep and that's why I

12:57

love Beme. I love Beme. There

12:59

are so many things. When my

13:01

sleep is out of whack it

13:03

can affect my mood, my skin,

13:05

my hair, my weight, my mental

13:07

health. Everything is attributed to your

13:09

sleep and if you sleep

13:12

less than six to seven hours, that's

13:14

right, six to seven hours, it can

13:16

be linked to reduced low blood

13:18

cell count and that is what

13:20

helps prevent your body from getting sick

13:23

and allows it to fight illness better. It's

13:25

just not a good idea to not have

13:27

good quality sleep. Yep that's why we love

13:29

Beme Dream. We have been raving

13:31

about their Dream Powder which

13:33

is healthy hot cocoa for sleep. It's actually

13:35

so delicious too. It is

13:38

so good. There's also other flavors

13:40

like the cinnamon cacao, the sea

13:42

salt caramel which I think is

13:44

my favorite and the white chocolate.

13:46

Better sleep has never tasted so

13:48

good. It's white chocolate peppermint. White

13:51

chocolate peppermint. Perfect for Christmas. Better

13:53

sleep never tasted better. Yep and

13:55

a recent clinical study revealed that

13:57

Dream helped 93% of wake

14:00

up feeling more refreshed and 93% reported

14:02

that Dream helped them get a more restful night's

14:04

sleep. All you have to do

14:06

is mix that Beam Dream in with some

14:08

hot water or some milk, you stir it

14:10

or you froth it right before bed and

14:12

you will go night-nights. Do you prefer water?

14:14

I do water, yeah. I do milk. Alright,

14:16

so find out why Forbes and New York Times

14:19

are all talking about Beam and why it's trusted by

14:21

the world's top athletes and business professionals. If

14:23

you want to try Beam's best-selling Dream

14:25

powder, take advantage of their biggest sale

14:27

of the year and get 50% off

14:30

for a limited time if you

14:33

go to shopbeam.com/solve the case. The

14:36

discount is auto-applied at checkout, no

14:38

code necessary. That's shopbeam.com/solve

14:41

the case for up to 50%

14:43

off. You

14:45

will love it. Beam take

14:47

me away. Beam me up. Get it?

14:52

Let's jump into three quick things. Rabia,

14:55

what is your question for Hillary? Okay,

14:57

our questions can be about anything, Hillary,

15:00

so brace yourself. Danger. Yeah,

15:02

here's my question. Tell us about your first kiss. That's a good

15:04

one. He

15:06

is currently a flight

15:08

attendant and a hairdresser.

15:12

I know where this is going. That tells me something. Yep.

15:15

I was a very unlikable fifth grader,

15:17

very unlikable, but the feather in

15:19

my cap is that I was

15:21

doing plays at the high school

15:24

and so I didn't need to hang out with

15:26

my like 10-year-old peers, you know. They thought I was

15:28

such a dork, but I was hanging out with

15:30

high school kids and they were doing

15:32

a production of The Music Man and

15:35

so there were some also like middle

15:37

school kids who were in

15:39

the play. For the little town kids.

15:41

Playing the Iowa townspeople and this

15:43

sixth grade boy like really liked my hair

15:45

and he thought I dressed pretty cool and

15:47

we liked all the same stuff and

15:50

the high schoolers dared us

15:52

to kiss back by

15:54

like the chorus room and

15:57

we did. We kissed. In front

15:59

of everybody. Oh yeah, hell yeah. And

16:01

I was in love. I was in

16:03

love. I wrote this boy letters and

16:06

I currently stalk him on the internet

16:09

because still, 30 something years later, I

16:13

just think he's so wonderful because he didn't care

16:16

that everyone else thought I was a dork. He

16:18

was like, I think she's great. And

16:20

I appreciate that kind of. Does he know you stalk

16:22

him? Have you reached out to him? No, he

16:25

knows. Yeah, I saw him.

16:27

He must. Can you imagine looking

16:29

at your follower list and being like, why is that nerd?

16:33

Everyone's like, I had a chat. Oh God,

16:36

I just loved him. And he's just as

16:38

handsome as ever and his husband looks just

16:40

like him and they're just so handsome together.

16:42

Amazing. There is not a

16:45

single woman listening who has not been in

16:47

love with a gay man at one time

16:49

or another. Yeah, that was just the first

16:51

one. I am right now, his

16:53

name is Joey. Yes, Joey.

16:56

My other podcast partner up

16:58

there. He's amazing, Terry Toronto. I love

17:00

him so much. Oh, I've seen pictures of you guys.

17:02

He is a doll. He is a doll. I get

17:04

it. He is delicious. I stalk my fifth grade crush

17:07

too. But I

17:09

dodged a bullet is all I'm gonna say. You're

17:13

going back to look because it feels good. You're like

17:15

seriously, I'm like, okay. Okay,

17:18

my question. I am

17:20

not jealous, but if I were to ever have two,

17:22

I would always love to have a girl and a

17:24

boy. We

17:26

always talk about how different it

17:29

is raising girls

17:31

and boys and it's so different

17:33

now. So what are the major

17:36

lessons that you are teaching your

17:39

girl and your boy, not at

17:41

the age as they are, but just about life

17:44

and the world and sex and people.

17:46

What are your overarching themes that you're

17:48

like, I'm telling this to my girl

17:50

and this to my boy. So I

17:52

found a shortcut with my son that

17:55

kind of encompasses all the stuff

17:57

that I want him to know. non-toxic

18:00

masculinity and empathy and you

18:03

know Community service,

18:05

you know just kind of like a

18:07

different way of centering One's

18:10

focus where it's not just about

18:12

you and pleasure And so

18:14

with my son at a young age

18:16

I started showing him movies and TV

18:19

shows and reading him books that had

18:21

female protagonists and so that

18:23

means he grew up on Anna Green Gable and He

18:27

grew up like seeing women

18:29

in positions where they weren't

18:31

damsels in distress Where

18:33

they also weren't necessarily like broken

18:36

women who became badasses They

18:39

were nuanced complicated creatures that

18:41

deserved respect and were really

18:43

like highly lovable And

18:45

so my son has always been really

18:48

incredible with women Oh love

18:50

it because I think he was exposed to

18:52

this and so two weeks ago We

18:54

watched the new little women together and I

18:56

really didn't know how this 13 year

18:58

old boy was gonna take it and

19:00

that child Loved that movie so

19:02

much. It was just like can we watch

19:05

it again? And

19:07

so I think that's a great shortcut with boys because

19:09

you're not telling them it's bad to be a boy

19:12

Yeah, but the same way girls can watch male

19:16

Narratives and be into it. I think boys should be

19:18

able to do the same thing. I am

19:20

a hundred percent doing that with my

19:22

son Oh god for that shortcut. I

19:25

love that kind of content and no

19:27

one they're not gonna ask

19:29

for it, right? They're not gonna be like can

19:31

I watch meet me in st. Louis with you, you

19:33

know, but guess what? They sit there

19:36

for the whole thing. They're into it And

19:39

then with my daughter it was just like

19:41

teaching her to go from zero to fuck you so

19:43

fast That no one can

19:45

ever hinder that she's a terrifying

19:47

animal and all of the like

19:50

Yeah, I was I was a people-pleaser and

19:53

so when you strip that from

19:56

a child all that's left is

19:59

pure person functionality and

20:01

so that's a learning curve for me because

20:03

I was definitely like What if you

20:06

guys want me to do I'll be whatever you want me to be.

20:08

I'll make straight A's I'll be perfect and This

20:10

kid's like fuck you. I'm a dinosaur Just

20:15

different I I fucking

20:17

love little badass girls like a

20:20

little badass girl to like grab

20:22

a toad by the neck or whatever Very

20:26

yeah, Oh Hillary

20:29

that doesn't change like

20:32

my 14 year old is the

20:35

scariest And

20:38

I say I can't wait but like me I

20:41

can't wait It's like a little bit sometimes she'll

20:43

like come home from like a rehearsal or like

20:45

ballet and I'm like But

20:47

I just like joke. I'm like she's home Okay Cuz

20:51

your judgment of my 14 now 15 year

20:53

old is the only judgment I fear and

20:55

I'm not kidding I don't fear anybody else's

20:57

judgment. Yeah, her face that I the eyes

21:01

When she sees me take eating it Rob. Yeah,

21:03

you need it your Dom. You don't know Oh

21:05

God hurt when I take a selfie. I mean

21:08

the way she looks at me is like it's

21:11

it hurts But you're so embarrassing. I

21:13

am so you're so Well,

21:15

it doesn't matter how cool you are Like

21:17

your child is going to think you are the

21:19

biggest dork ever and

21:21

just be mortified So wait before I mean,

21:24

I know we could talk about this forever

21:26

Do you know what my daughter asked me

21:28

to stop doing what commenting on her? Mom

21:37

I know you meanwhile, I know you

21:39

just want to support me Can

21:41

you please not comment on my Instagram

21:44

it's so cringe Cringe.

21:46

Yeah. Oh god that hurts. It hurts

21:49

so bad. It's just like it just

21:51

it just keeps turning Yeah, it's a

21:53

nice it gets worse and worse up

21:55

until about 23 or 24 then Suddenly

22:00

the pendulum swings back and she's

22:03

gonna love her momma and want her momma

22:05

on. Cause your daughter just got married, right? Well,

22:07

no, I'll just get engaged in May. We are

22:09

currently planning the wedding, which is next September and

22:11

it's a lot. Yeah,

22:13

I'm going to sell back my time and make this happen. Instagram

22:17

has made her crazy. My daughter, I

22:20

mean, bridezillas nowadays have Instagram to refer

22:22

to. Cause, you know,

22:24

coming in by helicopter? Sure. Why

22:26

not? I mean, like, everyone's

22:29

doing it. Up next, me,

22:31

Rabia and Hillary start our

22:33

parenting girls podcast coming soon.

22:37

And Hillary, we asked all of our guests

22:39

the same question. How

22:41

does true crime fit into

22:43

your life? Yeah. So

22:46

this is what I studied in college when I,

22:48

yeah. So I had

22:51

been acting forever and I had an agent in

22:53

New York city. So I'd made it my mind.

22:55

I was going to go to school in Manhattan

22:58

so that I could audition on the, you

23:00

know, days off and stuff like that. But

23:02

my, my passion was true crime. And

23:05

so I was a kid that like took

23:07

the Richard Ramirez book to senior beach week.

23:11

And I had man set of quotes

23:13

all over my megaphone. Like at the

23:15

end of cheerleading, when I graduated, they

23:17

gave me my megaphone cause they're like,

23:19

no one's going to reuse this Hillary.

23:22

Like it was just covered in Manson quotes.

23:25

For whatever reason, I was obsessed with it.

23:27

And so I got to college and I

23:29

started like actually studying the phenomenon of serial

23:32

killers in the United States and what that

23:34

meant in our media and what that meant

23:36

in our culture. And really

23:38

what it boiled down to for me, what

23:40

I wrote my little freshman year paper

23:42

on was that women

23:44

in our country are so conditioned

23:46

to be prey. You

23:49

know, there are predators everywhere. You cannot

23:51

walk to your car through a parking

23:53

lot without worrying about being violently assaulted.

23:56

And so women as natural preppers were the

23:58

people who like. our homes, prep

24:00

our families, we take care of things, we

24:03

do all of that invisible labor. When

24:06

it comes to prepping for ourselves,

24:08

we're doing this invisible labor of

24:10

trying to learn as much as

24:12

we humanly can about disaster and

24:14

about violence. Because if

24:17

we can just ingest enough of it, we

24:19

can probably prevent it in our own life.

24:22

That's the hope, that we can sidestep

24:24

it if we just study it hard

24:26

enough. And I think

24:28

that's why women are so drawn to

24:30

this subject matter. If

24:34

you can solve the puzzle, then hopefully you don't

24:36

fall into the same trap that the other girl

24:38

did. Totally. Invisible labor.

24:41

That's so true. Just

24:43

constantly consuming, learning, finding out the

24:45

details, watching a documentary, then googling

24:47

it all night long. I mean,

24:49

it's all about foresight for women.

24:51

We're always thinking ahead. Even

24:53

if I was like, okay, I'm going to make this meal on Sunday, which

24:55

means on Thursday I got to get this stuff. And then by Friday

24:57

I got to get these ingredients. You're always, always, always.

25:00

And I'm like, with both my daughters,

25:02

I am, I mean, their

25:04

mom is crazy, but I'm always sending

25:06

them news stories. Oh, the articles. Yeah,

25:08

the articles. I'm like, look, or when

25:11

you go to a hotel, this is what you got to

25:13

do. You know what I mean? I can't stop. I

25:15

can't stop doing it. And I don't think it's because my

25:18

life is, and my work is around true crime. I think

25:20

it's because I'm a woman. I think you're exactly right. Yeah.

25:23

Yeah. No, we're natural prey. And

25:25

we've been told that our entire lives. It's

25:27

all about like that. Yeah. It's

25:29

like, you feel like you want to sugar coat it,

25:31

but that's just how it is. I mean, every story

25:34

we hear and it just, it just doesn't stop. We

25:36

were just talking on our other

25:38

show about women just, we

25:40

can't even, we literally can't even put a

25:43

drink down and go in our bag.

25:45

I mean, it's, yeah. Let me ask you

25:47

something. Is, is, is Jeffrey also

25:49

into true crime or is it like most of

25:51

our partners? Not as much. Thank

25:53

you. No, I know. He's a dry

25:55

long. No, I know that he is

25:57

trying to make me happy when I walk in.

26:00

into our room and he has Dateline on and

26:02

I'm just like, oh, man. It's so cute. It's

26:04

so cute. It's so cute. We're trying

26:06

so hard. You know what? He,

26:08

yeah, that's horrible. He's

26:10

gotten very emotionally invested in a number

26:12

of the cases we've covered for it

26:14

couldn't happen here. So he

26:16

is crazy about Greg Lamps getting

26:19

out. Oh, wow. And he's made

26:21

videos and stuff about Greg. Yeah, I've seen

26:23

them, yeah. So he's really invested in that

26:25

case. We've got another case, Tyro

26:27

Noling, who's on death row in Ohio. And

26:29

he's pretty invested in that. And I had

26:32

to do a case in Georgia when he

26:34

was filming down there. And it

26:36

was a man who I cannot

26:39

say for sure whether or not he killed his wife,

26:41

but there are a number of people who believe so.

26:44

There's a number of signs pointing to that. And it's a

26:46

cold case. It's a cold case. It's been

26:49

listed as, oh, it's an undetermined

26:51

death, but

26:53

they tried to make it look like a suicide and it's definitely

26:56

not a suicide. Ooh. And

26:58

so my husband was with me while

27:01

I was having to talk to this man

27:03

on the phone. And he saw just how

27:05

freaked out I was having to talk to

27:07

someone. I mean, you know, when you have

27:09

to talk to someone who is potentially a

27:11

killer and just play nice with them so

27:13

they actually answer your questions, that's a weird,

27:15

weird deal. Yeah, it is,

27:18

yeah. And so, yeah, he's been around for

27:20

all of that and is

27:22

super supportive of it. So, yeah, it's

27:24

good to have a partner that isn't

27:26

as dark as you are, but you

27:28

go there. Speaking of dark, Hillary, tell

27:31

everyone the case that

27:35

you chose and then tell us why you chose

27:40

the most complicated

27:43

unsolved case in all of true crime.

27:45

Sorry. Well,

27:47

today, ladies, we are gonna go down

27:50

that dark, winding rabbit

27:52

hole of the Zodiac

27:54

Killer. Oh, okay. Why,

27:58

Hillary? Why? I,

28:00

yeah, there's so many. This is actually

28:02

your fault, Rubia. I

28:05

made friends online with Rebecca.

28:07

Is it Rebecca LaVoy? Oh

28:09

yeah, boy, yeah. Okay, so

28:11

Rebecca and I start following

28:13

each other because of undisclosed,

28:15

and she posted a

28:17

book recommendation one day, and it was

28:19

all about the Zodiac Killer. And it

28:22

was actually two books. They'd

28:25

come out like post-pandemic, and

28:27

the first one was called Motor

28:29

Spirit by Jared

28:31

Kobek. And that

28:33

just detailed the

28:35

killing, right? It really went into

28:38

detail with the killings, and it

28:41

cut out all of the media representation

28:44

of the case, and just

28:46

went straight back to the police documents.

28:48

The facts, too, the crime scene, the

28:50

facts. That's what I liked, that's what

28:52

I love, okay. Girl, you gotta cut

28:54

out the spin. Yep. I

28:56

read that, and I was like, huh, everything

28:59

I've been told about the Zodiac is not

29:01

right, like none of these pieces line

29:04

up. None of the suspects

29:06

that we've been presented really make sense

29:08

when you look at the facts. And

29:11

then he came out with book two. Book

29:13

two is called

29:15

How to Find the Zodiac. And

29:18

this dude went on a deep

29:20

dive, and I

29:22

think he figured out who the Zodiac is.

29:24

Really, okay. I do,

29:27

and so that's why when you guys were like,

29:29

what case do you wanna do? I

29:31

was like, oh, oh, me, me, over here. You

29:33

had just gotten, you were reading the book, or

29:35

had just gotten done reading the book. Yeah, yeah,

29:37

I was reading the book while I was on

29:39

tour. Yeah, and

29:42

Rebecca, I communicated with her

29:44

about this, and I was like, this is insane.

29:46

I don't know why this isn't getting more traction.

29:49

And so, we're the traction. We're

29:51

putting out the vibe today. This

29:53

needs a closer look. I

29:56

wanna know about all of the

29:58

faith. The fake

30:01

or the dead end suspect. Mm-hmm.

30:04

Rabia, do you go by recommendations for

30:06

things online? Like, do you always ask

30:08

for a recommendation from people? Especially

30:11

when it's like a service, like a personal service.

30:13

Yeah, I have, I must. Could you imagine trying

30:16

to find a new doctor without a recommendation? I

30:18

just wouldn't do it. No, I wouldn't do it.

30:20

I wouldn't, I wouldn't do that for a nail

30:22

salon, but definitely not a doctor. Well,

30:25

you do not have to worry because

30:27

ZocDoc is here. It is going to

30:29

help you find and book the doctor

30:31

that is right for you. And

30:34

most important, sorry to say it, a doctor

30:36

that takes your insurance. Not

30:38

only takes your insurance, but also can see you in

30:40

a timely way. And ZocDoc can hook you up with

30:42

all those things. Right. Why would they

30:45

introduce you to the best doctor that fits all

30:47

your needs, that takes your insurance, that can't see

30:49

you? They will match you

30:51

with someone within 48 hours. ZocDoc,

30:55

it is the place to find

30:57

and book great doctors who also

30:59

have amazing reviews. And a

31:02

lot of them have appointments within 24 hours. That

31:05

alone is reason to try ZocDoc. Yep.

31:08

And you can do all the

31:10

booking online through the app. You

31:12

don't have to make any phone

31:14

calls, wait on the line. I

31:16

mean, come on. So go to

31:19

zocdoc.com/solve the case and download the

31:21

ZocDoc app for free. Then find

31:23

and book a top rated doctor

31:25

today. That is zocdoc.com/solve the case.

31:27

zocdoc.com/solve the case. Rabia,

31:30

I don't even need to look

31:32

at this copy because I have

31:34

loved Rocket Money for so long.

31:36

You know I am so careful

31:38

with my finances. Yes, that's

31:40

why you actually have money. Rocket

31:43

Money is a personal finance app that finds

31:45

and cancels your unwanted subscriptions and monitors

31:47

your spending. And it helps you lower your

31:49

actual bills all in one place. I

31:51

have done that so many times. I have

31:54

signed up for something to get a

31:56

discount, to get free shipping and then they

31:58

sneaky snake get in there. and you get

32:00

a bill for $17.99 and you're like, what

32:03

the heck? Rocket Money is like, hey now,

32:05

do you really want to keep that subscription?

32:07

It's like kind of a nosy best friend,

32:10

but it's right in an app. Right. And

32:14

you know, what I've done so many times, I've

32:16

signed up for things thinking, I will absolutely remember to

32:18

cancel this in 90 days. No you won't. No,

32:20

I won't. I don't even remember I have it. It's

32:22

okay though, Rabia, because 80% of

32:25

people have subscriptions that they

32:27

have forgotten about. It is just

32:29

too easy to subscribe and then forget

32:31

things. How much do you think you

32:33

pay a month in subscriptions? Just guess,

32:35

throw it out there. I'm guessing about

32:38

a hundred bucks. Okay. Most people say

32:40

about 80, but they're actually paying

32:42

closer to 200. And

32:45

that's why Rocket Money is going to

32:47

be there. It is a personal finance

32:49

app. It finds, cancels those unwanted subscriptions,

32:51

like the best friend you never had,

32:53

and monitors your spending. I

32:55

get these emails that are like, Ellen,

32:58

did you mean to spend $200 at

33:00

McDonald's this month? Look,

33:04

with over 5 million users and counting, Rocket Money

33:06

has helped save its customers an average of $720

33:08

a year. Imagine

33:10

what you can do with that.

33:13

And of $1 billion in savings

33:15

so far. So stop wasting money

33:17

on things you don't use. Cancel

33:19

your unwanted subscriptions and manage your

33:22

money the easy way by going

33:24

to rocketmoney.com/solve the case. That's rocketmoney.com/

33:26

solve the case. Let's

33:28

go to the crash course. Curiosity

33:30

is a fundamental human trait.

33:33

Everyone is curious, but

33:35

the object and the degree of

33:37

that curiosity is different depending on

33:39

the person and the situation. Oftentimes

33:42

people are unable to overcome the

33:44

urge to rubber neck at an

33:46

accident scene, or we will

33:48

scan through the timeline of a friend of

33:50

a friend of a friend's social media to

33:53

find out if they're still with that guy you always

33:55

hated from high school. But

33:57

humans also like a challenge.

34:00

The media has been captivated

34:02

by the murders of the

34:05

notorious and elusive Zodiac Killer

34:07

for five decades. Sadly,

34:09

murderers of all walks have

34:12

done their evil and unsinkable acts since

34:14

then, but why do we keep coming

34:17

back to this case? One

34:19

could say it's because of his

34:21

sensational relationship with the media. His

34:24

full mark was calling the police

34:26

right after a murder and sending

34:28

letters to newspapers in the weeks

34:31

following. He did this constantly.

34:33

He sent dozens of letters

34:35

threatening various crimes and the

34:38

messages contained complex ciphers that

34:40

promised to reveal his identity.

34:43

Well, by the end of the 1970s, the letters ceased.

34:47

The Zodiac is the basis for

34:49

the archetypal serial killer, the

34:52

smart loner who kills because he likes

34:54

it or maybe because he likes the

34:56

attention. The lack of

34:58

motive and sheer randomness of his

35:00

murder adds to the scary reality

35:03

that he outsmarted so many. So

35:06

who is the Zodiac Killer? The short

35:08

answer is, nobody knows. But

35:10

the theories are endless. Google

35:13

the phrase, who is the Zodiac Killer and

35:15

you'll get a list of people from Ted

35:17

Bundy to Ted Cruz. And

35:19

yet all these years later, police

35:21

seem no closer to capturing the

35:23

elusive killer. Let's go back. On

35:26

December 20, 1968, two

35:28

high school kids, Betty Lou Jensen and David

35:30

Faraday were on their first date. Like most

35:32

teenagers do, they pulled into a lovers lane

35:34

type area in Venetia, a quaint

35:37

town in Solano County. That night on

35:39

Lake Harmon Road, they would be the

35:41

first victims of the Zodiac Killers. Both

35:44

Betty and David were shot at point blank

35:46

range and died within minutes. The

35:48

weapon was a .22 caliber semi-automatic

35:50

pistol. There were no

35:52

witnesses, indication of robbery or sexual

35:55

molestation. The second murder attributed to

35:57

the Zodiac was 22-year-old Darlene Farin

35:59

and year old Mike McGow. Though he

36:01

was shot five times, Mike lived to tell

36:03

his story. According to the surviving victim, the

36:06

young couple had parked at an isolated location

36:08

to talk. A car, possibly a light brown

36:10

Ford Mustang or Chevy Corvair, pulled into the

36:12

lot just a few feet away. A man

36:15

with a flashlight exited the vehicle and approached

36:17

them. They were alone in the

36:19

parking lot and thought it was a police officer,

36:21

so naturally the couple had their identification ready. Without

36:24

warning, the man began firing at the

36:26

couple. McGow got a look at him.

36:28

The man was white, 5'8 to 5'9",

36:30

hiked in his late 20s to early

36:32

30s with a stonky build, round face,

36:35

brown hair, and didn't speak a

36:37

word. Until approximately 45 minutes later,

36:39

when the Vallejo Police Department received

36:41

a call from a man claiming

36:43

responsibility for the attack, he

36:45

correctly identified the weapon used as a 9mm

36:48

and also took credit for the Faraday Denson

36:50

murders of December 20th, 1968. Even

36:54

with this ominous phone call, the investigation was

36:56

at a standstill. Until on

36:58

July 31st, 1969, when a series

37:00

of letters were sent to the

37:02

San Francisco Examiner, Vallejo Times Herald,

37:04

and San Francisco Chronicle. In the

37:06

letters, the killer lay claims the

37:08

murders of Faraday, Denson, and Farron.

37:11

To squelch doubters, there were details beneath letters

37:13

that only the person who committed these heinous

37:15

acts would have known, and

37:17

each letter contained one third

37:19

of a cipher that, if

37:22

solved, supposedly contained the killer's

37:24

identity. While the killer

37:26

hadn't yet given himself the name Zodiac, this

37:28

marked the beginning of a letter-writing spree that

37:30

would go on for more than five years. The

37:33

Zodiac Killer's fourth confirmed victim came

37:35

on September 29th, 1969. Brian

37:38

Hartnell and Cecilia Shepard were picnicking

37:40

at Lake Berryessa in Napa County

37:43

when they were approached by a

37:45

man wearing a black executioner's type

37:47

hood with clip-on sunglasses over

37:49

the eye holes as well as a bib

37:52

with a crossed circle symbol on it. He

37:54

claimed he was an escaped convict who had

37:56

killed a guard and stolen a car, but

37:59

needed a new car to continue his journey

38:01

as his was quote too hot.

38:03

The man then made Miss Shepard

38:05

tie Mr. Hartnell up. He then

38:08

stabbed them both multiple times before

38:10

drawing the cross circle symbol on

38:12

Mr. Hartnell's car with a black

38:14

felt tip pen and writing the

38:16

date, time, and location of the

38:18

attack. The victims were both

38:20

still alive when help arrived and were taken

38:22

to the hospital in critical condition. Hartnell

38:25

survived and Shepard died two days

38:27

later from her injuries. Around

38:29

7 40 that night Napa County

38:31

police received a call that reported the incident

38:34

and claimed to be the perpetrator saying,

38:36

I want to report a murder.

38:38

No, a double murder.

38:41

A palm print was recovered from the telephone but

38:44

it has never been successfully matched. The

38:46

final murder that is confirmed to be

38:48

the work of the Zodiac Killer occurred on October 11th 1969. Paul

38:50

Stein was working as

38:53

a taxi driver when he picked up a male

38:55

driver who asked to be driven to Washington and

38:57

Maple Street in Presidio Heights in San Francisco.

39:00

Mr. Stein drove one block past Maple

39:02

to Cherry Street and the passenger then shot

39:04

him in the head and took his wallet,

39:06

car keys, and a piece of

39:09

his blood-stained shirt. Then right

39:11

on schedule on October 13th the San

39:13

Francisco Chronicle received a letter from the

39:15

Zodiac claiming to be the murderer of

39:17

Paul Stein which police had initially

39:20

suspected to be a routine robbery.

39:22

The letter contained the bloodied piece of

39:24

Mr. Stein's shirt. This

39:26

time there were witnesses. Three teenagers saw the

39:28

killer and called 911 and

39:30

reported a man. However, somewhere the identity

39:32

was lost in translation and the operator

39:35

told police it was a black man. So

39:37

in that detail there is a chance

39:39

the Zodiac slipped through the San

39:41

Francisco PD fingers once again. Obviously

39:43

a mysterious string of murders would

39:45

leave any city left with ample

39:48

fear and confusion but

39:50

don't forget beyond the awful murders

39:52

the killer taunted authorities and the

39:54

public with a series of letter

39:56

containing encrypted messages which had a

39:59

series of symbols, letters, reverse

40:01

letters, and numbers, challenging

40:04

anyone to decipher their hidden meanings.

40:07

The Zodiac sent four coded messages in total to

40:09

the paper in 1969 and 1970. The

40:13

first had 408 characters and

40:15

was cracked in a week. But it

40:18

wasn't until the COVID-19 pandemic when

40:21

people found extra time on their

40:23

hands that three researchers on three

40:25

separate continents solved the 340-character cipher

40:27

officially in 2021. They've

40:32

sparked countless theories about the identity of

40:34

the Zodiac Killer and the motives behind

40:36

his heinous crimes. The remaining

40:39

messages contained within these ciphers

40:41

could potentially hold crucial information

40:43

that could lead to identifying

40:45

suspects or shedding light on

40:47

more victims' tragic fate. The

40:49

Zodiac Killer's ability to create

40:51

intricate codes that have withstood

40:53

decades of scrutiny speaks volumes

40:55

of his intelligence. As technology

40:58

advances and new code-breaking techniques

41:00

emerge, there is hope that

41:02

one day these enigmatic messages

41:04

will be fully deciphered. The

41:06

Zodiac might be the ultimate cold case.

41:08

There have been thousands of Zodiac suspects

41:10

and 12 named Zodiac Killer persons of

41:12

interest so far, but each suspect never

41:14

perfectly lines up with every bit of

41:16

information that has been gathered over the

41:18

years. The Killer could be alive

41:20

or dead, in prison for another

41:22

crime, or still free. If

41:25

we really think about it, the Killer might not

41:27

even be one person. The problem is

41:29

we may never know for sure, which is one of

41:32

the scariest details about the case. While

41:34

many questions remain unanswered about the

41:36

Zodiac Killer's identity, his impact on

41:38

popular culture cannot be denied. Books,

41:41

films, and documentaries have sought to explore

41:43

and analyze this captivating case, keeping

41:45

public interest alive. There's so much to

41:47

say and uncover about the Zodiac. We'll

41:50

try and do our best today, but

41:53

one thing is for sure, the

41:55

Killer is a man, because the

41:57

audacity. Think about it. that

42:00

he was able to evade capture

42:02

and taunt law enforcement with his

42:04

cryptic communications time and

42:06

time again, as well as eluding

42:09

identification and leaving behind a trail

42:11

of unsolved cases, it's

42:13

fueled speculation time and time again

42:15

as to his identity and motives. Lack

42:18

of conclusive evidence or suspects also

42:20

leads to the allure. As we

42:23

delve into the dark world of

42:25

the Zodiac, and all serial killers

42:27

for that matter, it is essential

42:29

that we remember not only their

42:31

heinous acts, but we also pay tribute to

42:33

those lives that were taken too soon. The

42:36

search for the truth continues as

42:38

investigators try to bring justice to

42:40

both victims and their families affected

42:42

by this chilling chapter in criminal

42:45

history. So, who

42:47

do we think the Zodiac Killer is? Let's

42:50

talk about it. In the crash course, we

42:52

mentioned so the five main victims that we

42:54

talk about. And before we go to suspects,

42:56

there is one thing I would love to

42:59

get your opinion on and anyone in the

43:01

chat as well. We have a live chat

43:03

here, Hilary, on the side. Oh, shoot. I

43:05

see it now. Yeah. And we

43:07

are not alone. The

43:10

thing that media can't agree

43:13

on, and maybe you can, is

43:15

Cherry Jo Bates. So,

43:18

Cherry Jo Bates was

43:21

the murder that happened

43:23

before the, quote, Zodiac

43:26

phenomenon in San Francisco. This

43:29

was in 1966 when all of the other ones started in 1958. And

43:36

this is the one that nobody

43:38

online can really agree on. And

43:41

I have your immediate thoughts on,

43:43

is it Cherry Jo? Yeah. Cherry

43:46

Jo. Cherry Jo, because

43:48

this is one of the most highly

43:50

debated issues about the Zodiac. What are

43:52

your thoughts? Oh,

43:54

man. You know, I

43:56

think looking at the motive of the

43:58

Zodiac is really important. important, right?

44:01

Because unlike other serial killers,

44:03

there's no sexual

44:07

element to these killings, right?

44:09

There's no robbery element

44:11

to these killings. There isn't a delusional

44:13

son of Sam, Satan told me to

44:16

do it element to these killings. So

44:18

what's the killing for? It's

44:21

killing for fame. It wants to be famous. And

44:25

with the Cherry Joe Bates case, I

44:28

don't know.

44:32

You know, let me say something else. You know,

44:34

because I'm like channeling Sarah Kaitlin, you might have

44:36

known who Sarah Kaitlin is because we've

44:40

worked cases together. My last case on undisclosed,

44:42

she's an investigator. She's been on our show.

44:44

She's an incredible investigator and her entire field

44:47

of study and work is sexual predation and

44:49

sexual and serial killers who have sexual motives

44:51

like that's literally her expertise. And there's so

44:53

many times she has stopped me and been

44:55

like, just because it's not sexual

44:57

to you doesn't mean it's not sexual to

44:59

them. Well, okay. So she's like, you know,

45:02

what what she's like, you know, so sometimes

45:04

when you're looking at motive, you

45:07

just like the power that this might man

45:09

might have gotten from just shooting people and

45:11

killing them like that, that might have given

45:13

him some element of sexual gratification. And I

45:15

was like, I remember thinking, okay, but it

45:17

still doesn't seem sexual to me. You know

45:19

what I mean? But when the night react

45:21

with the letters, the

45:23

letters are the same to the letters.

45:26

Yeah, there's that too. Yeah. I have

45:28

a whole theory on his

45:30

want for fame. And

45:33

this the reason I bring up

45:35

Cherry Joe is because there are

45:37

people here, Cherry, maybe it's Sherry.

45:39

It's C H E R I

45:41

is that cherry or Sherry? Okay,

45:44

Sherry. Yeah, the thing you know, because

45:47

so for those of you who don't

45:49

know, we touched on it briefly

45:51

in the crash course, but she was

45:53

coming out of the library and the

45:55

zodiac had disabled her car. She also

45:58

had like a missing green

46:00

Volkswagen bug, which I thought was

46:02

adorable. And so then he

46:05

lured her into the dark. She was outside

46:07

of the library. He lured her into the

46:09

dark up a driveway and

46:11

it's thought that they stayed there for like

46:14

an hour and a half. But

46:16

also she was killed by

46:19

stab wounds. And

46:21

the main main thing was

46:24

the watch. Remember, this

46:26

was the case like 10 feet from

46:28

her body was a

46:30

paint splattered Timex watch.

46:33

And the paint was found out to just be like

46:35

household paint, like nothing that brought

46:37

them any details. And they

46:40

also found a shoe print that

46:42

was size 10, which matched up

46:44

with some other evidence. But the

46:46

main thing was the confession and

46:48

the letter sent to

46:50

the Riverside Police Department and

46:52

a local paper. And it

46:54

was typed using a royal typewriter. And

46:58

it was very taunting. The

47:00

letter said quote, she was young

47:02

and beautiful, but now she is

47:04

battered and dead. She is not

47:07

the first and she will not

47:09

be the last. I lay awake

47:11

nights and thinking about my next

47:13

victim. Miss Bates was stupid.

47:16

She went to the slaughter like

47:18

a lamb. She did not put

47:20

up a struggle. But I did.

47:22

It was a ball.

47:24

And it goes on

47:26

and on. But I

47:28

don't know that is one thing that comes

47:30

up that is rather than that list of

47:33

suspects that is there's just so many of

47:35

them and we'll get to them. I just

47:38

do you think that was the start

47:40

of it? Did he take a two

47:42

year break? What

47:45

this happened, Sherry happened in 66,

47:47

right? Correct. And the

47:49

range of murders that we

47:51

are authorities pretty much believe started in

47:53

68. Is that what you're saying? David

47:55

Faraday and Darlene was I think the

47:57

end of 68. Like yeah, closure

50:00

but I feel like she's like all by herself with

50:02

like absolutely no answers. No,

50:04

none. And it almost seems safer

50:07

just to compartmentalize it, you know, instead

50:10

of thinking that she was his training, that she

50:12

was like his boot camp. Because what do we know

50:14

about the killer? You know, was

50:16

he around in 1966? All of these suspects, did

50:21

they all live in the area in 1966? It

50:23

almost like we have to reverse engineer it at

50:25

a certain point when we're this far out. Yeah.

50:27

Also, do you know, Ellen, to what extent do

50:29

you know, like with Sherry Jo's murder? Has there

50:32

been I mean, like, there's that watch and like,

50:34

I would expect that there'd be a lot of

50:36

forensic evidence and a crime scene like this. Do

50:38

you know if that was ever like, if it

50:40

was ever preserved under, I

50:42

actually put her under

50:44

murders. I think it's on page 13. Robby 35.

50:47

It's only 16. Okay, so at Bates at her murder, there

50:50

was a heel print from

50:58

a shoe again, the size 10. And

51:01

there was actually a ton of

51:03

evidence because there was hair blood,

51:06

there was also skin

51:08

found under her nails. And

51:11

there were fingerprints, palm prints

51:14

found all over the car.

51:16

But none could be matched

51:19

to anyone. And now

51:21

DNA evidence was used back then. Obviously,

51:23

it's not as sophisticated as it was

51:26

in 66. Yeah, there was there was

51:28

DNA there like DNA and stuff had

51:30

just started it was there was like

51:32

an article in Time magazine actually that

51:34

year. I had no idea I thought

51:37

it really started like in the late

51:39

80s. Okay. I mean, that kind of

51:41

evidence left behind now skin under the

51:43

fingernails hair, they might as

51:45

well put a yellow arrow and pointed

51:48

to the guy. Yeah, it actually was

51:50

a very, very sloppy crime

51:52

scene. You know,

51:55

in comparison to the others, also

51:57

the car had most definitely been

51:59

tamped. with. This was a

52:01

huge thing as he said in his

52:03

letter and that detail

52:05

was not released to the public.

52:09

So in his letter he wrote,

52:12

I first cut the middle wire from

52:14

the distributor then I waited for her

52:16

in the library and followed her out.

52:18

The battery must have been dead by

52:20

then. So he did tamper with the

52:22

car that was not released to the

52:25

media. So that's how they knew that

52:27

at least this letter was genuine. At

52:30

least whoever wrote this letter had some

52:32

intimate knowledge of the crime whether

52:34

or not it was the Zodiac. You know

52:37

Hillary you said earlier that you know you

52:39

wondered about whether somebody who committed this murder

52:42

would have waited two years of silence and then

52:44

suddenly this debate. But when I look at

52:46

it when I look at a crime like this I think this

52:49

can't be his first kill. Like to me

52:51

like yeah that's the thing. So is

52:53

this someone that like just moved in

52:55

from across the country? You know like

52:57

is this somewhere someone that has practiced

52:59

elsewhere? And unfortunately back then

53:01

we didn't have all of

53:03

the kind of national databases and things like that

53:05

that we have now. So someone could have easily

53:08

come in and been like alright well I'm setting

53:10

up shop. Fantastic. I

53:12

think that with the Riverside

53:14

posting address here did they where did they

53:17

mail the letter from? Was it

53:19

mailed like from in and about the campus?

53:21

It had no postmark. Am I looking at

53:23

the Joseph Bates one right here? There will

53:25

be more. Oh no that is

53:27

too oh yes that's great. No

53:29

that's to her dad.

53:31

So he wrote a letter to her dad

53:34

too. Yes several. This guy's sadistic. I mean

53:36

yeah and I I just refused to believe

53:38

that this was just like his very first

53:42

crime committed. I'm guessing

53:44

this guy had a history of violence against women

53:46

in other ways before he got to this

53:48

particular. I mean and it was thought

53:51

out it was meticulous. He like he

53:53

probably stalked her you know I mean

53:55

like this. Sorry let me go back

53:57

and answer the question. Yes that's under Rabia. turn

54:00

to other communication on page

54:03

22. Yes, you're right. On April

54:05

30 1967, what you were just

54:09

referring to was the letter that

54:11

he sent her father Joseph Bates,

54:14

and then he mailed another

54:17

letter that said Bates had

54:19

to die, there will be

54:21

more. And those were mailed

54:23

with a four cent Abraham

54:25

Lincoln stamp and

54:28

to the Riverside police, the same Riverside paper

54:30

and her dad. So we know they all

54:32

came from the same person because they all

54:34

had the same like typewriter font, they all

54:37

had the same stamps, they all came from

54:39

that Riverside. Exactly. Yeah. And it

54:41

was the royal typewriter. And when we talk

54:43

about the list of suspects that will fall

54:45

under one of them. Hillary, do you want

54:47

to go to suspects or where do you

54:50

want to go? I mean, so I love

54:52

this. I love that my suspect isn't on

54:55

your list. So I want to talk about

54:57

these other suspects because Ellen's face. Look at

54:59

Ellen's face. Honestly though,

55:01

truth be told, there are so

55:04

many I honestly picked like the

55:06

most like that those six but

55:09

so I want to hear

55:11

yours. So let me just tell the audience

55:13

who's on the list that I sent you.

55:15

I'm so excited you have someone else. So

55:17

I arbitrarily chose

55:20

well Gary Francis Post who I want to say I

55:22

don't think has anything to do with it. That's

55:25

who the code breakers thought

55:27

it was. Then we have

55:29

Lawrence Klein, Jack Terrence, George

55:32

Hodel, who you might remember

55:34

from the Black Dahlia case,

55:36

Ross Sullivan, Richard Kiyoski,

55:39

Arthur Lee, Allen

55:43

and who are you going to tell

55:45

us about? Tell us everything. Girl, here's

55:47

the thing to understand. So

55:49

many of these suspects are based

55:51

in who law

55:53

enforcement thought was dangerous back in

55:56

the 60s and 70s, right? And

55:58

who was dangerous? dangerous to law

56:00

enforcement back then. The

56:03

freaks, it was the queer

56:05

community, it was minority community

56:08

members, it were

56:10

people who lived on the fringes

56:12

and this identity of the Zodiac,

56:15

that was supposed to strike fear into

56:18

the hearts of people. Only anybody

56:20

who's actually in a fringe community

56:22

knows that the Zodiac is like

56:25

so harmless. It's the least occult

56:28

word you can pull from the occult,

56:31

it's what a nerd would think

56:33

is scary. And

56:35

so in reading this book by Jarett

56:38

Kobek, he goes through all these other suspects

56:40

and he's like, I don't know about this, I don't know

56:42

about this. And he

56:44

really taps into something that I think is

56:46

important when we're looking at historic true crime.

56:48

And it's

56:52

understanding that the same things that

56:56

are true today were true back

56:58

then. Domestic violence is like

57:00

the leading indicator of whether or not

57:02

someone is going to commit violence outside

57:04

of their home. And when

57:06

you look at patterns in behavior,

57:09

who is doing things like what the Zodiac

57:12

is doing right now? Regular,

57:14

just white dudes with a

57:16

family and an alternate secret

57:18

life? Insoles, insoles on the

57:20

internet. Those are the

57:23

guys being radicalized and

57:25

shooting up churches, shooting up schools, going

57:27

to the mall. They're

57:30

the misogynistic women haters. They're the monsters. And

57:32

so sure, if we wanna throw Sherry Jo

57:35

into this and say this is a misogynist

57:37

that is practicing on literally the most

57:39

vulnerable creature out there, like a

57:41

college co-ed, yeah, great training ground

57:43

for him. As we

57:46

dip into this book, he introduces

57:48

the idea that the

57:50

language in these letters is

57:52

really weird. We can all agree.

57:55

I think the letters are the most, yeah. That's

57:57

where everybody's attention usually is. And I feel like

57:59

that. What do you guys mean when

58:01

you say weird there's so many ways to go?

58:04

What do you guys both find a obstacle in

58:06

a way and and It

58:09

sounds cartoonish in a

58:11

way. He reaches out to a buddy of his And

58:14

he's like this. What do you guys mean when you

58:16

say weird? There's so many ways to go What are

58:19

you guys both? fantastical in

58:21

a way and And

58:24

it sounds cartoonish in

58:26

a way. He reaches out to a buddy of his and

58:29

he's like this language about like The

58:33

slaves and like the ways that people will

58:35

die. Does this ring true to you? And

58:38

he started looking up just like Google

58:40

and buzzwords from these letters and he

58:42

came up with a Tim Holt comic

58:45

book from 1950

58:48

no and on this wheel

58:50

of death there's death by gun

58:52

death by knife death by fire

58:54

death by rope and It

58:58

starts sounding very similar to some of the

59:01

letters that he was sending Wow And

59:03

then there's all these talk this talk in these

59:05

comic books He's like sci-fi comic books about like

59:08

the human slaves and I will make them my

59:10

slaves and things like that I'm

59:12

actually sitting in this letter that's recent in

59:14

this first letter this writer Jared Kobek I

59:17

love it. He talks about himself in the third

59:19

person in this book. He's like then mr Kobek

59:22

reached out to his friend, which I think is

59:24

just a fantastic writing device But

59:26

his friend said yeah, it sounds like comic books,

59:28

but it sounds more Like

59:31

fan zine. Do you

59:33

guys remember and fan zine culture? No.

59:36

No. Oh my god. Okay.

59:38

So what is that? Pre

59:41

internet. It's like we're on her show Ellen I'm

59:45

so nerdy. I'm from my 35 pages

59:47

of research out. This is the Hillary

59:49

show. We just need to call Jared

59:51

right now Yeah, honestly, we probably could

59:53

he's Rebecca's friend Rebecca just chatted with

59:55

him the other day Oh, I

59:58

would love to talk to this human I

1:00:00

would probably become really bashful and

1:00:02

nervous that I was presenting his work

1:00:04

wrong, because he did an extraordinary amount

1:00:06

of work. But what he's

1:00:08

saying here is that fanzine culture

1:00:10

existed before the internet. Right now we've got

1:00:12

all these dudes on 4chan hyping each other

1:00:14

up, but what did they do in the

1:00:17

50s and 60s and early 70s? They

1:00:20

wrote fanzines, which were just

1:00:23

pieces of paper stapled together that

1:00:25

they would- Zinn-Rox. Like fanfiction. It's

1:00:27

fanfiction that they would create themselves.

1:00:30

And so what he

1:00:32

starts looking for are references

1:00:34

and fanzines that line

1:00:37

up with what the Zodiac is doing.

1:00:40

And he knew that the Zodiac killings

1:00:42

were happening in Vallejo. And

1:00:45

so he just puts into

1:00:47

a Google search, Vallejo

1:00:49

fanzines. Wow. And

1:00:51

all of a sudden, these fanzines from the

1:00:53

60s pop up. And

1:00:55

who should pop up as the creator of two

1:00:57

of these is a man named Paul Doar. D-O-E-R-R.

1:01:03

So he starts Googling this dude, right?

1:01:05

And he just does what all of

1:01:07

us at home do and falls into

1:01:09

the trap of like pulling threads. And

1:01:12

so he finds that this man created

1:01:14

two different fanzines. One was about hobbits,

1:01:17

right? And the other was

1:01:19

a survivalist one called Pioneers. And

1:01:22

he had subscribers all over the country.

1:01:24

He'd create his own magazines. He'd send

1:01:26

them out. He would solicit for other

1:01:28

people to put their own

1:01:30

articles in his magazines. But at

1:01:33

the same time, all these crimes are

1:01:35

happening in like the Vallejo area. He

1:01:37

has a PO box there where

1:01:40

he is creating all of this

1:01:42

content and using very similar language.

1:01:45

He's buying and selling

1:01:47

guns through his fanzines, getting

1:01:49

rid of weapons that he's

1:01:51

used in the past. There's

1:01:53

a paper trail of this man that

1:01:56

this author finds that spans from

1:01:58

the 1950s to the 1970s. to when

1:02:00

he died in the 2000s and he

1:02:03

spent every year of his life basically

1:02:05

writing letters to the editor. So

1:02:08

it would not be out of the realm

1:02:10

of possibility that this well-practiced writer

1:02:12

is the one crafting letters like this

1:02:14

knowing he can get away with it.

1:02:17

Yeah. So Jarrett is like going through all

1:02:19

of these old fanzines from the 50s and

1:02:21

60s and certain

1:02:25

libraries have, you know,

1:02:27

copies of them and he's trying to trace

1:02:29

them down and he's lying to everyone. He's

1:02:31

not telling them he's looking for the Zodiac

1:02:33

Killer. He tells them he's doing an ancestry.com

1:02:36

like project. Yeah,

1:02:38

and what he finds is

1:02:40

that in one of in one of

1:02:43

the fanzines for Hobbitalia, which

1:02:45

was just all about Lord of the Rings and

1:02:47

hobbits and stuff. This man writes

1:02:49

on cipher and writes in

1:02:51

cipher over and over and over again and

1:02:54

encourages everyone else to do the same and

1:02:57

like loves writing secret messages and all

1:02:59

of these fanzines he's working on and

1:03:02

so I don't want to spoil the book, but yeah, like

1:03:04

you guys Yeah, this is

1:03:07

a really super strong suspect thing. That

1:03:09

is so hard about

1:03:11

and I did pass his name,

1:03:14

but we have to remember that there

1:03:17

have been like 500

1:03:21

suspects. Oh, yeah, which is

1:03:23

bananas and the thing that

1:03:25

makes all of this so

1:03:28

You know that emoji where it's just

1:03:30

a head coming off of your own head The

1:03:33

thing that makes it that emoji is

1:03:35

that so many of them

1:03:37

are plausible Sure because you're like

1:03:40

Six things make sense from that one

1:03:42

and eight things make sense from that

1:03:44

one and every time I read I'm

1:03:46

like I mean Arthur Lee Allen seems

1:03:48

like a cuckoo banana man And

1:03:51

so it's like when you're talking I'm

1:03:53

also very easily swayed you're talking. I'm

1:03:55

like, oh my god. It's so that

1:04:00

But what sets him apart

1:04:02

from the other suspects that are at least

1:04:04

the ones that you highlighted in

1:04:08

your research and I'd say probably a lot of others.

1:04:10

A lot of the other suspects seem like they're the

1:04:12

kind of suspects that it's like, well, they were in

1:04:14

the area. They might have had some criminal history. They

1:04:17

might have acted weird. But to

1:04:19

me, like the most important evidence

1:04:22

in this case is the letters. Who

1:04:24

had the ability to write like that? Who was

1:04:27

going to use language like that? I feel like

1:04:29

that's in the absence of

1:04:31

like forensic material, like that is your

1:04:33

forensics right there. And I don't know if

1:04:36

the analysis was done in terms of

1:04:38

like all these other suspects. If you would

1:04:40

find a stronger connection to the language and

1:04:42

these letters as you would do to this

1:04:44

Paul Durer guy. And I'm seeing that he

1:04:47

was also ex-military. So he, you

1:04:49

know what I mean? Yeah, a lot of these guys

1:04:51

were all ex-military. And to

1:04:53

your point, Rabia, so many

1:04:56

of these kills,

1:04:58

these murders were very

1:05:00

messy. I mean, and

1:05:02

quite solvable. I mean, there's two

1:05:04

survivors and Paul Stein,

1:05:07

there was like bloody fingerprints

1:05:09

all over the car. This

1:05:11

was not one of those things. Like, you know,

1:05:13

we see cases where it's like, did a ghost

1:05:16

come and do this? It's not

1:05:18

like that at all. So that even adds

1:05:20

like a never-layup. You have all these

1:05:22

fingerprints and you have all this kind of stuff.

1:05:24

It's like, how have they not eliminated so many

1:05:26

of their suspects, including Paul Durer or Dower? I

1:05:29

don't know how to pronounce his last name. I mean,

1:05:31

it's my understanding he's dead now. Right? I mean, even

1:05:33

if he does. And, you know,

1:05:35

for me, some of

1:05:37

the research in this book is so great

1:05:39

because it really gets down to the brass

1:05:42

tacks of what was happening then? Not

1:05:44

like how did we interpret it over the course of 10 years,

1:05:46

20 years, 30 years, but what was happening then? And

1:05:49

the day in the park that

1:05:51

Darlene and Mike were, no, I'm

1:05:53

sorry, that was that night, was

1:05:56

it Cecilia Shepard and Brian were

1:05:58

the ones that were killed? that

1:06:00

were on the picnic. Yes. That

1:06:03

was David Faraday and Betty Jensen. That

1:06:05

was the first couple. No,

1:06:08

I'm sorry. I'm talking about Cecilia and

1:06:10

Brian with the hooded costume and the

1:06:12

knife. Oh, yes, yes, yes.

1:06:14

The hood and the knife is weird, right? Oh,

1:06:18

yeah. So for those of you who

1:06:20

don't know, basically

1:06:22

this guy came out from the

1:06:24

trees and he

1:06:27

was wearing a four cornered hood.

1:06:31

And he tried- What is that even? What is

1:06:33

a four? Is that like a- It's an executioner's

1:06:35

mask. Yeah. It's up like

1:06:37

this, almost. It looks like a square, like

1:06:39

a bib, but like a big bib over

1:06:41

his- Oh, it's four corners this way, not

1:06:43

four corners. Okay, anyway. Yes, exactly. And it

1:06:45

had the cross- Well, that's terrifying. Circle design

1:06:47

that had appeared in the

1:06:50

Zodiac signature. Yeah. Yeah.

1:06:53

So what Mr. Jaret Cobek

1:06:55

uncovers is that right before,

1:06:57

right before that happened, a

1:07:03

fanzine comes out for Habotalia that

1:07:05

says, "'Hey, we have so

1:07:07

many people interested "'in

1:07:10

our subject matter. "'Should we

1:07:12

have a convention?'" He's basically

1:07:14

saying like, "'Should we have like our own

1:07:16

little Comic Con?'" Back before that was a

1:07:18

thing. And so he

1:07:20

talked about how up in

1:07:23

San Francisco, they were doing events like that. Well,

1:07:25

lo and behold, the same exact

1:07:27

day that killing happens with the

1:07:30

hood, there's a Renaissance fair

1:07:33

in the San Francisco Bay Area. Do

1:07:35

you know where? Where was that? Because

1:07:38

I asked, because was that one in

1:07:41

Napa? It was like the third year

1:07:43

of it. I'm gonna pull

1:07:45

it up right now. "'Do we have

1:07:48

enough tokens in the San Francisco area

1:07:50

"'for a Tolkien con? "'What about the

1:07:52

entire West Coast? "'I'd like to hear

1:07:54

from any nearby, "'mail or phone or

1:07:56

whatever.'" And so that is something that

1:07:58

Dorr puts out. we know

1:08:00

that the third annual Renaissance Pleasure

1:08:03

Fair and Hap Henny Market took

1:08:05

place that weekend in September of 1969, including

1:08:08

the 27th. It

1:08:12

was... what was it called, Hilary? The

1:08:15

third annual Renaissance Pleasure Fair

1:08:17

and Hap Henny Market.

1:08:20

There's a little comma after the A.

1:08:22

H-A-comma. Hap

1:08:24

Henny, yeah. The Hap Henny. And

1:08:27

it was open

1:08:30

every single weekend, or weekend day

1:08:32

of September 1969, including the 27th. It

1:08:35

was happening in San Rafael in Marin County

1:08:37

across the Golden Gate Bridge from San Francisco,

1:08:40

about an hour and a half drive from

1:08:42

Lake Berryessa. Berryessa. Okay,

1:08:45

so... so it's San Rafael

1:08:48

in Marin. That is... okay, so

1:08:50

Lake Berryessa would be... yes, it

1:08:52

would be... did they say like

1:08:54

an hour? That's like an hour

1:08:56

away. Yeah. It's like an

1:08:58

hour away. Where's Vallejo in

1:09:00

comparison? Vallejo is out

1:09:03

more towards the SFO airport. I'm from this area,

1:09:06

Hilary. I grew up with the Zodiac, but not

1:09:08

knowing enough. But... So

1:09:10

I'm probably making you crazy by pronouncing everything wrong. It

1:09:15

doesn't... none of it makes sense. I used to

1:09:17

call San Jose San Jose. Jose! Yeah,

1:09:20

San Jose. Yeah, Vallejo is

1:09:22

out towards like Beniche. It's

1:09:25

actually beautiful out there. It's

1:09:27

like South Bay, like more towards like the

1:09:29

airport. We covered a case out there. And

1:09:32

it is... it's beautiful. You don't realize

1:09:34

how rural it can get in some

1:09:36

of those places. Like

1:09:39

cows and... But I also... when

1:09:41

I hear that things are an hour and

1:09:43

a half apart, that never seems like a

1:09:46

problem to me because I live in this rural

1:09:48

area where I have to drive an hour to

1:09:50

get anywhere. That's... you know, this is a

1:09:52

daily drive to... yeah, go to public.

1:09:54

No biggie. Wow! That

1:09:57

is such a

1:09:59

crazy connection. because the

1:10:01

murders of Cecilia

1:10:04

and Brian, that

1:10:07

happened September 27, 1969. Yeah.

1:10:11

So there was a note that was left on

1:10:13

the car that had the top of the note

1:10:15

had that sign that was apparently also on the

1:10:17

hood and it said Vallejo 12 2068,

1:10:20

the date 12 2068 and then

1:10:23

the date 7 469. And

1:10:26

then since September 27, 696 30. So

1:10:28

that's the that's the date and the time he killed them.

1:10:30

And this is fine. Nice. But

1:10:32

the two days before that, what are the two

1:10:35

days before that? Those are the dates of his

1:10:37

other kills. Other kills. Yeah. Those

1:10:39

were the dates of Darlene Farin and Mike

1:10:42

McGow and David Faraday and Betty Lou Jensen.

1:10:45

You know, his first one was that lovers

1:10:47

lane one actually taps into what you were

1:10:49

saying, Hillary, of someone who's like an incel

1:10:52

because he went after two couples

1:10:54

originally. They were like at make

1:10:56

out point or something. And then

1:10:58

the other one on like a

1:11:00

romantic picnic. So Robby, those dates

1:11:02

were like his scorecard, which

1:11:05

also would then say,

1:11:07

which then would also say

1:11:09

that he never took credit

1:11:12

for Sherry Joe. So then

1:11:14

that would actually lead to say that maybe it

1:11:16

wasn't the Zodiac because if he was doing

1:11:19

his bragging rights, why would

1:11:21

it include that, you know, his sick, twisted

1:11:23

mind of look at everything that I've done

1:11:25

that I've gotten away with. And he maybe

1:11:27

because we know that this one

1:11:30

particular suspect was such a voracious

1:11:32

newspaper and magazine

1:11:35

reader, had he seen the

1:11:37

Cherry Joe case because it was a big

1:11:39

deal. The young woman was murdered and

1:11:42

seeing the attention that a letter got.

1:11:44

Maybe that's the light bulb moment where

1:11:46

it's like, this is how I get

1:11:48

attention. Yeah. Yeah. That would

1:11:50

be my calling card. Talk about that because

1:11:52

to your point that you made

1:11:54

earlier, Hillary, this was not about

1:11:57

killing. This was not a joke.

1:12:00

D'Amer or Ted Bundy. When you listen

1:12:02

to them, you just say,

1:12:04

when you listen to those D'Amer tapes, and

1:12:06

you're like, oh, my, you

1:12:09

are an animal, you are

1:12:11

a real animal. It wasn't

1:12:13

about that. The Zodiac didn't

1:12:15

appear to be obsessed with

1:12:17

killing. He was obsessed with,

1:12:20

with the fame, which

1:12:22

is why when we get to the Paul Stein

1:12:24

murder, I think is so different,

1:12:27

because But, but there is that one note in

1:12:29

which he says, I like killing people because it's

1:12:31

so much fun. It's more fun than killing wild

1:12:33

game to give to kill something gives me the

1:12:35

most thrilling experience. It is even better than getting

1:12:38

a rock's off with a girl, which again goes

1:12:40

back to like, I do think he's getting some

1:12:42

kind of a sexual thrill from these kills. I

1:12:45

think he's bragging to the cops

1:12:48

because he has some kind

1:12:50

of a need for attention.

1:12:52

Because if you're killing

1:12:55

just to kill, but why are

1:12:57

you sending these letters and these

1:12:59

ciphers and he's getting off because

1:13:01

remember, they sent those, you know,

1:13:04

he sent the letter and said

1:13:06

print this letter in

1:13:08

the newspaper, right? He wanted

1:13:10

these ciphers to get solved.

1:13:13

And they did, they printed it.

1:13:16

Everybody is trying to figure it

1:13:18

out, right? Those two teachers crack

1:13:20

the first cipher. But this is

1:13:22

what he loves. He has the

1:13:24

Bay Area in chaos. He is

1:13:26

the first thing that everybody is

1:13:28

talking about. And so that

1:13:32

is what he's getting off on.

1:13:34

He's getting off on this chaos.

1:13:37

And he's doing it right under the noses

1:13:39

of these people. He called them. He called

1:13:41

them on the phone and then sent

1:13:43

letters and was like, haha, look what I

1:13:45

did. So that is

1:13:49

what makes it even more

1:13:51

confusing his need for attention,

1:13:54

really. I mean, it's a

1:13:56

hunt. He wants to be chased.

1:13:58

There's a thrill there for him. Oh,

1:14:00

yeah, he almost wants to be but

1:14:02

he's taunting the police. He's like look I

1:14:05

mean that's power But he's

1:14:07

only taunting them with like pop culture

1:14:09

references, right? So we know the most

1:14:11

dangerous game We know that but yep,

1:14:14

we know, you know, we know that

1:14:16

story first got these comic book references

1:14:19

there is There's even

1:14:22

something from Gilbert and

1:14:24

Sullivan's the Mikado really a reference to that

1:14:26

as well It's from the little list letter

1:14:28

in 1970 And

1:14:31

so he's making these pop

1:14:33

culture references and when it comes

1:14:35

down to writing

1:14:37

letters to the police about what

1:14:40

he's gotten away with when he

1:14:42

writes about that lovers lane killing

1:14:44

on July 4th,

1:14:46

right the 4th of July one. Well, I think

1:14:48

she was like an older married woman meeting up

1:14:50

with like a teenage boy He was like a

1:14:52

couple years younger was 19 Yeah,

1:14:55

it was a little salacious a little scandal.

1:14:57

Yeah, she goes on drinking with Mary So

1:15:01

the letter that arrives to law

1:15:03

enforcement is a total ripoff of

1:15:05

a recent maybe it wasn't

1:15:07

recent It's a total ripoff of a popular

1:15:10

Mechanics article that was written about

1:15:12

tactical gear for the military and

1:15:14

how strapping a flashlight onto the

1:15:17

gun Allows you to

1:15:19

use the little dark spot in the middle

1:15:21

of the flashlight as your yeah of aiming

1:15:23

the gun only at

1:15:25

the distance that The

1:15:28

victim was shot and where the zodiac was It's

1:15:31

not applicable right like when you're shining a

1:15:34

flashlight that far away, right? That doesn't hold

1:15:36

up All right so what we see is

1:15:38

this pattern of him like pulling from pop

1:15:41

culture pulling from other magazines and Using

1:15:43

sound bites that he thinks sound

1:15:45

intimidating and like who I'm a

1:15:48

mastermind Also, probably because he

1:15:50

doesn't as a creative and articulate enough himself

1:15:53

To piece together like you know, I

1:15:55

mean although the cipher itself is

1:15:58

it takes them some some intellectual But

1:16:01

all the other language and stuff, you know, he...

1:16:04

But I wonder if that was... if

1:16:06

it's because he wasn't creative intellectual enough

1:16:08

or it was just like another... These

1:16:11

are hints he is giving. These are clues

1:16:13

he is drawing. They're like this little eggs

1:16:16

he's hiding for people to try to figure

1:16:18

out. Well, I think it's the exact opposite.

1:16:20

I think rather than him not being smart

1:16:23

enough, I think he's probably a man who

1:16:25

in his day-to-day life is

1:16:27

not respected and not

1:16:29

treated as intelligent and he's got a chip on

1:16:31

his shoulder about it. And so he is not

1:16:33

only going to commit these crimes and get away

1:16:35

with it, but he's also going to prove that

1:16:37

he's well-read, that he understands mechanics and

1:16:40

he's a survivalist, which is not something that

1:16:42

a lot of people were dipping their toes in

1:16:45

back then, you know? That

1:16:47

he can understand and break codes that

1:16:49

he not only can deal with like

1:16:51

this realm, but he can also understand

1:16:53

like fairy realm and speak their language.

1:16:56

Like this is someone who's desperately trying to

1:16:58

prove themselves and get the respect that they

1:17:00

think they deserve. But what do you make

1:17:02

of all the spelling errors? The

1:17:04

spelling errors are totally on purpose. Absolutely on purpose.

1:17:07

Oh, okay. Why?

1:17:09

To throw people off? I mean, he

1:17:11

smells so many things incorrectly. Yeah, well,

1:17:13

in the first letters, he's not doing

1:17:15

it as much. It becomes a thing...

1:17:17

I mean, to me personally, I think

1:17:19

it's probably something that he accidentally did

1:17:21

in the first letter and then saw

1:17:23

in the newspaper that they called him

1:17:25

out for his typos and he's like,

1:17:27

yeah, I meant to do that for

1:17:29

sure. Oh, yeah, that's such a good

1:17:31

call. And one of the words that

1:17:33

he spells wrong is cipher. He spells

1:17:36

it like C-Y-I-P-H-E-R. And

1:17:40

in his fanzines, he

1:17:42

spells cipher with a Y. And

1:17:45

then in the letters to the newspaper...

1:17:47

I'm sold. I'm sold.

1:17:49

All I'm saying is, we

1:17:52

need Jared. Honestly,

1:17:55

when we do a couple more things,

1:17:57

we do a little like anything we

1:17:59

do. didn't cover, we cover

1:18:02

on our Patreon. But Hilary, at this rate, you're

1:18:04

going to come back in 20%. Well, because I

1:18:06

want to know. But this is

1:18:08

what's so genius to me is that I'm sitting here

1:18:11

and like, we've all been scratching

1:18:13

our head for decades, right? Like who did

1:18:15

this? Who did this? It's the exact same

1:18:17

person who's doing it today. It's

1:18:19

the exact same mindset. And kind of

1:18:21

person. Humanity doesn't change. And

1:18:23

so instead of looking at the

1:18:25

artists and the freaks and the

1:18:27

bohemians, which is what they were doing,

1:18:30

look at the incels. Look at the men who

1:18:32

have a chip on their shoulder who want to

1:18:35

prove their worth or, you know, prove

1:18:37

their status. And some

1:18:39

of these suspects completely disappear from the

1:18:41

list. Yeah, I want to say

1:18:43

my I just want to throw my suspect

1:18:45

out. Yeah, give it to me. Because we

1:18:47

we have to explore all options. We know

1:18:50

it's really true because so many things will

1:18:52

come up and I fall down these

1:18:54

holes and I'm like, that's it. Oh, for sure. Oh, no, there's

1:18:57

that's it's kind of like if you're like dress shopping,

1:18:59

you're like, this is my favorite. No, no, no, no,

1:19:01

this is my favorite. Like every single one I would

1:19:03

get drawn to. But I think I'm

1:19:06

very, very intrigued by Paul. And

1:19:08

I'm so I just had to

1:19:10

choose a handful of them to

1:19:12

dive into. So the one

1:19:14

that made the most sense to

1:19:16

me was Arthur

1:19:18

Lee Allen. All right, let's pull up

1:19:20

Arthur. Let me see Arthur. So for

1:19:23

Arthur Lee Allen's on page

1:19:25

five, for those of you following

1:19:27

along. Now I did it again,

1:19:29

I bounced back and forth. George Houdel, we

1:19:31

spoke a lot about black Dahlia. And that

1:19:33

really does make a lot of sense. But

1:19:35

I just want to go through a couple

1:19:37

key makes no sense for this. I mean,

1:19:40

no, no, no, no, he really doesn't. But

1:19:42

he was, you know, he was definitely because

1:19:44

he was he was a journalist for the

1:19:46

San Francisco Chronicle. I mean, yeah,

1:19:48

a lot of it can be explained away.

1:19:50

You're absolutely right. Okay, so what got me

1:19:52

on Arthur Lee Allen, he comes up a

1:19:54

lot in the Sherry Jobaids case. So

1:19:58

that could be that could the

1:20:00

answer to that, you know? So the thing

1:20:02

that gets me is that he was an

1:20:04

elementary school teacher. He actually was a very

1:20:06

brilliant man. He had like three science degrees

1:20:09

or something like that. He

1:20:11

was absent from school

1:20:13

the day after her

1:20:16

death. And then going

1:20:18

back, he did have a criminal record. He

1:20:20

had an altercation with

1:20:23

someone named Ralph Spinelli, and this

1:20:25

was back in 1958. But

1:20:29

the Zodiac would

1:20:31

later write letters to someone

1:20:33

named Marco Spinelli, right? Okay,

1:20:36

great. That can be excused

1:20:38

away as well. So

1:20:40

he was fired from his job

1:20:42

for sexually assaulting a student, and

1:20:44

he was forced to move back

1:20:46

home with his mom and dad

1:20:48

back to Vallejo. And

1:20:50

then there's a lot of research

1:20:53

that says that he suffered from

1:20:55

substance abuse disorder. He was doing

1:20:57

drugs. He had an alcohol problem.

1:21:00

And so there were a

1:21:02

lot of things going on there. But

1:21:05

he was about seven minutes

1:21:07

away from the Lake Herman

1:21:10

Road crime scene. He

1:21:12

was known to have a really

1:21:14

bad temper, which was exacerbated by

1:21:16

his recent drinking due to his

1:21:18

shame to being fired. He

1:21:20

owned a royal typewriter, the same

1:21:23

that was used for all of

1:21:25

the letters to the paper. And

1:21:28

okay, so this is crazy. And

1:21:30

you have to take it for what it's

1:21:32

worth. He was given a Zodiac watch by

1:21:34

his mother in

1:21:37

1969, and started to call himself

1:21:40

Zodiac, not the Zodiac, but

1:21:43

Zodiac. And this

1:21:45

was according to a friend of

1:21:47

his name, Don. And then

1:21:49

he said, yeah, he was going to

1:21:52

stop signing his name, Arthur,

1:21:54

and he was going to use

1:21:56

the Zodiac sign, a la

1:21:58

Prince, like that was the to be his

1:22:00

new... But he's doing this in 69, like after

1:22:03

the letters and the murders have already started. But

1:22:06

that's when he like told Don. So

1:22:08

he was like, he was like, oh

1:22:10

yeah, I signed my name now, like

1:22:12

this, you know, symbol, Prince. I'm in

1:22:15

my DeLorean, you don't know who Prince

1:22:17

is. But it just

1:22:19

all kind of like lined up. I don't

1:22:21

know. Again, I can make, I could make

1:22:24

a case for so many of these suspects,

1:22:26

but what do you guys think about those?

1:22:28

Well, what do we know about Zodiac? Could

1:22:31

Arthur Lee Allen have created these

1:22:34

uncrackable ciphers? He

1:22:36

was very, very smart. He had

1:22:39

several like science degrees. Like he

1:22:41

was an elementary school teacher. And

1:22:44

he was also like highly, highly intellectual. But

1:22:46

do we see any place in his life

1:22:48

where he did specifically that because that there's

1:22:50

a lot of smart people on the planet.

1:22:53

And I'm very smart ladies. I don't do

1:22:55

code. Yeah, I don't, I don't like cracking

1:22:57

codes. I don't even mess with Suduko. No,

1:22:59

same. I'm gonna play

1:23:03

your dumb game.

1:23:06

Like specificity is

1:23:09

important when we're analyzing suspects

1:23:11

like this. And so that's

1:23:14

a big deal. Cause that's a big part of who

1:23:16

the Zodiac is. What else

1:23:18

do we know about him? You

1:23:20

know, this is someone who antagonized

1:23:22

and wrote letters. It seems to me

1:23:24

like with this Arthur guy, it's almost

1:23:26

like he's watching this unfold in the media.

1:23:29

And he's like, I'm adopting this, like

1:23:32

kind of like, he wants to be part

1:23:34

of this thing that's happening. And he's like

1:23:36

a copycat. Yeah, a hundred percent. And it

1:23:38

doesn't sound like I mean, okay, he

1:23:40

has had a couple of, let's

1:23:42

see, one sexual assault or, you

1:23:45

know, violent. Yeah. But I

1:23:47

don't know. I don't think it's better for the

1:23:50

cherry Joe Bates thing, which I think is a

1:23:52

side issue. It is. Yes, it

1:23:54

is. Oh, it's totally a side issue.

1:23:56

I mean, the only thing being the

1:23:58

same was the letters, but the letters

1:24:00

didn't. include ciphers of

1:24:02

any kind and the

1:24:04

letter was printed again on the royal typewriter.

1:24:06

I guess I should have looked up how

1:24:09

common those were. I'm sure they were pretty.

1:24:11

I mean like I just

1:24:13

it's just not it's not a it's just

1:24:15

not as many there's not enough connective tissue

1:24:17

as we see with this other suspect I

1:24:20

think. Okay well I'm gonna come back with

1:24:22

even more. Yeah I want more. Feed

1:24:24

me. One of the things that I am

1:24:26

fascinated with is it seems like January

1:24:29

29th, 1974 with the exorcist

1:24:31

letter like that seems to be like where

1:24:34

people kind of say well that's like the

1:24:36

last known definite right letter from him. Do

1:24:38

you think what do you think happened to

1:24:40

the zodiac after that? Like where did he

1:24:43

go? Like why did he stop like doing

1:24:45

what he was doing? So the last crime

1:24:47

that was absolutely attributed to him was Paul

1:24:49

Stein and Paul Stein was the

1:24:51

cab driver

1:24:54

and I do have a theory on

1:24:56

that. I want to hear your theory Hillary. So Paul Stein

1:24:58

was 29 years old he

1:25:00

was actually in grad

1:25:03

school at the time and he

1:25:05

was driving he picked

1:25:07

up the zodiac and he

1:25:09

shot him once in the

1:25:11

head at point blank range

1:25:14

which all of the all of

1:25:16

the murders that he ever committed

1:25:19

were using different weapons. That's something

1:25:21

very interesting to remember. Now there

1:25:23

were three witnesses that night and

1:25:26

when they called the police

1:25:28

the dispatcher said the

1:25:32

wrong identification because

1:25:35

and oddly enough

1:25:37

there was a small robbery. He

1:25:39

took his keys and his wallet

1:25:41

and also a portion of his

1:25:43

shirt that will be important later

1:25:45

and again left a messy crime

1:25:48

scene. Three fingerprints, three palm prints,

1:25:50

a lower fingerprint. Like it was

1:25:52

it was a mess but

1:25:54

they called in and then

1:25:56

they told the cops they were looking for

1:25:59

a black man. Yeah. And

1:26:01

he wasn't looking for a black

1:26:03

man. And they think that he

1:26:05

passed right by him, because

1:26:08

the cops saw him. Now, my theory

1:26:10

on that was that,

1:26:13

you know, he had been playing all

1:26:15

of these games and I and

1:26:18

the Paul Stein murder was the closest

1:26:20

he ever came to getting caught. And

1:26:22

that was based on pure luck, because

1:26:24

I think he was

1:26:26

almost trying to get caught. And

1:26:29

then as someone who like is in such

1:26:31

desperate need for attention, he's just like, I

1:26:33

mean, fuck it. I just walked right in

1:26:35

front of the cops and you're not. Nothing

1:26:39

fun. You guys aren't even playing the

1:26:41

game right. Yeah. I mean, I think

1:26:44

what that killing did was it

1:26:48

assured that he was more than like a

1:26:50

lover's lane killer. You know,

1:26:52

at this point he had preyed

1:26:56

upon women and

1:26:58

younger men. And

1:27:00

this was him killing a man.

1:27:03

And just nobody even law

1:27:07

enforcement looked at him and thought

1:27:10

him so helpless and harmless. He

1:27:12

couldn't possibly do it. Like, I

1:27:15

don't know how you geld someone

1:27:18

worse than that by saying, Oh,

1:27:20

you certainly not. I

1:27:23

mean, he was like right across the street from the car. There's

1:27:25

like a park that was where

1:27:27

the car was parked and they saw him

1:27:29

like right at that park. So

1:27:33

that's an emasculating thing to happen to

1:27:35

someone, especially someone who fancies themself dangerous.

1:27:38

Totally. Yeah. And, and

1:27:41

the days of these killings were also important

1:27:43

too, because there was like a Friday Saturday

1:27:45

component to a lot of these killings that

1:27:48

indicated a work schedule. Yeah. Yeah. It was

1:27:50

always that on the weekend. He was like,

1:27:52

I mean, nine to five, babe, I got

1:27:54

I have to be on the clock. Yeah.

1:27:57

Yeah. And a family, you know, and like, or some, or

1:27:59

some something to like regulate

1:28:01

that schedule. The getting

1:28:04

rid and acquiring

1:28:07

weapons in an

1:28:09

untraceable fashion is an important thing to

1:28:11

look at. Because think about

1:28:13

how any of these other suspects might get

1:28:15

away with that, right? Like

1:28:18

how would they reasonably do that? Do they walk

1:28:20

into a pawn shop? Would

1:28:22

they meet people in parking lots?

1:28:24

How would you advertise something like

1:28:27

that? In what I want to

1:28:29

say like 1968, there

1:28:33

was a bill that was passed. There was a law

1:28:35

that was passed. In October 1968, the United States Congress

1:28:38

passed a ban on unlicensed

1:28:40

mail order guns. It was the

1:28:42

consequence of the assassinations of John

1:28:44

F. Kennedy, Robert F. Kennedy, and Martin

1:28:47

Luther King Jr., right? And

1:28:49

so at that time, Paul

1:28:51

Doar is using all of

1:28:53

these fanzines to buy and sell weapons

1:28:56

over and over and over and over

1:28:58

again. And so it was

1:29:00

something that people had their eye on, right?

1:29:03

It was something that every pawn shop in the

1:29:05

country knew was like, uh-uh, we're gonna get in

1:29:07

trouble for this. So

1:29:09

finding someone who had the ability

1:29:11

to do that is important

1:29:13

when you're trying to figure out who the

1:29:16

suspect was. Did Paul Doar have a,

1:29:18

did he have a nine to five? Yeah,

1:29:20

he worked at a, it was

1:29:22

a military facility. He was former Navy, he

1:29:24

was like a Navy medic. Yeah, it was

1:29:26

just like a government base, no

1:29:28

big whoop. There's no danger there, but

1:29:30

it still was like a uniform,

1:29:33

I'm important kind of job. I do

1:29:35

love that whoever the Zodiac was, was like,

1:29:37

listen, honestly, I

1:29:40

can't, I need to schedule my

1:29:42

murder time around my work time. He

1:29:45

worked at Mare Island Naval Base.

1:29:47

And so he moved, so

1:29:50

he originally was from Pennsylvania. He

1:29:52

was abandoned in early life by his father. He

1:29:55

served in the Navy as a medic. And

1:29:57

then in 1963, he

1:30:00

moved to California. And

1:30:02

for decades, he worked on Mare

1:30:04

Island Naval Base. He

1:30:06

didn't live in Vallejo. He lived

1:30:08

20 miles northeast in Fairfield, but

1:30:11

he kept the Vallejo Post Office box from 1964 to

1:30:13

1976. There's

1:30:17

your guns right there. I'm coming

1:30:19

in the mail. Yeah. Did

1:30:21

he wear glasses? Yeah, I was wondering

1:30:23

about that because I'm reading this description that

1:30:25

the witnesses in the

1:30:27

Stein case called, and the witnesses, what

1:30:30

they described was exactly what the cops saw. So

1:30:32

white male, 25 to 30 years old, are on

1:30:34

5'9", stocky, reddish brown hair in a crew cut.

1:30:36

And I'm looking at a picture of Paul

1:30:38

Doar and I'm like, oh,

1:30:40

that's reddish brown hair in a crew cut. So

1:30:43

here's the deal. So guys, you

1:30:45

have to buy this book. I'm freaking I

1:30:47

ordered it while while we were on commercial

1:30:50

for this book at this point. Okay. So

1:30:52

here's, here's the drawing that we have. Yeah.

1:30:55

Right. And so

1:30:58

what Mr. Kobek understands is

1:31:00

that people can wear disguises

1:31:02

like this is a man who's going to

1:31:04

put a bag over his head, put it

1:31:06

on glasses to disguise himself also seems pretty

1:31:08

reasonable. And so he just

1:31:11

like erases the glasses. He's like,

1:31:13

let's see what this person looks

1:31:15

like without glasses. Right. And then he's

1:31:17

like, but also let's see like maybe

1:31:19

what he looks like with a mustache. And so

1:31:21

he just sketches on a mustache and holds it

1:31:23

up next to a picture of Paul Doar. Oh

1:31:26

my God. Like

1:31:29

why are we even having this conversation?

1:31:31

The case is solved. But

1:31:33

so apparently, you know, he's

1:31:35

this author, this investigator has

1:31:38

turned over all

1:31:40

this, you know, his research and

1:31:42

findings to the police and they've done

1:31:44

nothing with it. Isn't that maddening though?

1:31:46

And that I think is the crime

1:31:48

that we're talking about today, that we

1:31:51

probably could compare evidence, we

1:31:54

probably could look at these fingerprints. I

1:31:56

don't know what is still like viable

1:31:58

in, you know, evidence

1:32:00

files from this case, but there's an

1:32:03

avalanche of forensic evidence here. There should

1:32:05

be, yeah. And it's not a priority

1:32:07

for anybody to test it. It was

1:32:09

not. None of the crime scenes were

1:32:12

clean. At the Paul Stein

1:32:14

murder, he left a pair of gloves behind.

1:32:16

I think he wanted to get caught. He was

1:32:19

like breadcrumbing. What's he gonna take? He's like, I'm

1:32:21

walking with a bagel back to my apartment.

1:32:24

Does anyone want to pick up the pigeons?

1:32:26

Got it. Like, he's just... Everything

1:32:28

is going wrong for him. It's like he

1:32:30

tried everything to get caught.

1:32:32

It's like the Keystone coppery of it

1:32:34

all. And then those two cops are

1:32:36

like, meh. He

1:32:38

looked like a weenie. Don't

1:32:41

even look at him. What a loser. I mean,

1:32:44

glasses, you know, the whole get... I mean, you

1:32:46

know, five, eight, five, not that tall. So, you

1:32:48

know, maybe, yeah, he just kind of... He was

1:32:50

so unassuming to them. I still can't figure out

1:32:53

why he just suddenly stopped. Okay. So

1:32:55

this is my theory. Okay. So

1:32:57

this dude, this dude went and he purchased

1:33:00

land in Oregon, right? Dordid.

1:33:03

Dordid. And he starts soliciting

1:33:06

in his fanzines and in

1:33:08

other magazines looking for

1:33:10

people who want to start a commune with

1:33:12

him. Oh, he's killing him on his own

1:33:14

property. He's just killing him on his own

1:33:16

property. He's just... And women who

1:33:18

can't get like normal chicks to respond

1:33:20

to him, he starts writing to women

1:33:22

in prison, I believe. And I recall

1:33:24

reading that part where he was like

1:33:27

writing to chicks in prison being like,

1:33:29

come join me on my beautiful farm,

1:33:31

my commune in Oregon. And

1:33:33

there are pictures of his

1:33:35

house and it's a kill shed. It's a hundred

1:33:37

percent a kill shed. Oh my God. And

1:33:40

it's terrifying. He just developed

1:33:42

a different fantasy, you

1:33:44

know, which happens. Alan's

1:33:46

got her hand raised. Give it. Okay.

1:33:50

It's impossible to dive into

1:33:52

all of those mystery murders

1:33:54

after the main five. Did

1:33:56

any of them take place

1:33:59

in Oregon? again? Would they have

1:34:01

even been counted? Right? I think I'm

1:34:03

only looking at like the Bay Area. Yeah, I

1:34:05

mean that's the thing. I mean because they have

1:34:07

all I mean honestly the

1:34:10

amount of times I cursed your name in

1:34:13

my home. All you had to do was

1:34:15

read one book. You put QR codes in

1:34:17

the back of the book for all the

1:34:19

pictures. I've called you because it's just so

1:34:22

much. My cats are like is that that

1:34:24

Hillary bitch you've been screaming about? Hillary! I've

1:34:26

gotten a lot of message from Ellen in

1:34:28

the last few days. It's

1:34:31

just so much and I want to like you

1:34:33

know absorb it all but I mean that's

1:34:35

like one of the main things. They were

1:34:37

like well maybe he killed five people but

1:34:40

also maybe he killed like 37. Yeah

1:34:43

and who's

1:34:45

to know because he also this particular

1:34:48

suspect because he had been

1:34:50

in the Navy he was big

1:34:52

on boats. He had his own

1:34:54

boat that he said he was working on

1:34:57

and talked about going out on the water

1:34:59

all the time and would invite women to

1:35:01

go out on the water via these classified

1:35:03

ads and so who knows

1:35:06

how many bodies he dumped from a

1:35:08

boat you know. Well

1:35:11

you know but here's what I wonder

1:35:13

if so much of the thrill for

1:35:15

him was about the recognition wouldn't

1:35:17

he be just claiming people left and right and

1:35:19

not just you know. Yeah well

1:35:21

and I think that's it. Some

1:35:24

of the people who survived described

1:35:26

him as hesitant. They described him

1:35:28

as like like it

1:35:30

was like he was putting on a show like he

1:35:32

had to like amp himself up. There was an awkwardness

1:35:35

to this killer and to

1:35:38

me that says someone who doesn't really like

1:35:40

love what they're doing. There's not like bloodlust

1:35:42

there but knows that they have to do

1:35:44

it. It's a means to an end. Just

1:35:47

do You know you're you're

1:35:50

right because the couple Cecilia

1:35:52

and Brian is that

1:35:54

the one he... The ones on the picnic? Yeah

1:35:57

because he survived right yeah. Cecilia

1:36:01

and Brian thought

1:36:04

that he was placating to him. He was like,

1:36:06

I'll give you whatever. He did not think he

1:36:08

was going to hurt him. So yeah, I never

1:36:10

thought of that. But in that one he was

1:36:13

like, we just thought that he wanted our stuff

1:36:15

and he was going to go away. And then

1:36:18

he just snapped. And

1:36:20

so once you establish this personality

1:36:22

of the Zodiac, once you are

1:36:24

feared by the media firestorm, you

1:36:27

don't actually have to kill anybody anymore.

1:36:29

Now you just get to like taunt.

1:36:33

And he's

1:36:35

getting exactly what he

1:36:37

wants. People are still talking about it.

1:36:39

We're talking about it. And he didn't have to

1:36:41

do any extra work, which is also the sign

1:36:43

of a man. He's like, look, I took the

1:36:46

trash out. I did it once. I don't want

1:36:48

to hear anything else. Yeah, he

1:36:50

got everything he wanted. He was like, you

1:36:52

know, post- Then you got away with it. In

1:36:54

the three biggest newspapers and they posted

1:36:56

it and they did everything and they

1:36:59

did everything he asked for because

1:37:01

of the fear and chaos he

1:37:03

instilled in the Valeria. And

1:37:07

it's so for me, you know,

1:37:10

the big thing on the show that I do, it

1:37:12

couldn't happen here is that I always like a call

1:37:14

to arms. I'm always like, what comes next? Right. I

1:37:17

find it incredibly frustrating that

1:37:20

this investigator and this writer

1:37:22

did all of this work and did

1:37:24

it in a really thoughtful, methodical way.

1:37:27

And like, nothing's

1:37:29

happening with it. And

1:37:31

so my call to arms is like, what? I'll

1:37:34

get loud. I think this should be looked

1:37:36

at professionally. The thing is, there's like no

1:37:38

real legal way to compel it. Every state

1:37:41

now has some kind of

1:37:43

DNA petition mechanism on the

1:37:45

books for defendants who

1:37:47

are like, they still have to fight to get it

1:37:49

done, but they can, there's actually a legal

1:37:52

mechanism for them to like a petition

1:37:54

for this. I really think what

1:37:56

we need is to have something similar for

1:37:59

victim to be able to have standing, you know

1:38:01

what I mean? Somebody has to

1:38:03

have standing to demand this. The victim's family

1:38:05

also be, I mean, I wonder if a

1:38:07

civil suit could work in a situation like

1:38:09

this even though there's no specific, you

1:38:12

know, statute under which victim's families

1:38:14

have these rights. But I

1:38:16

mean, the problem is there's no legal way to compel it

1:38:18

and so I think that would be interesting. I

1:38:20

wanna check in with some victim's advocacy groups to see

1:38:22

if that's something they've ever even considered. But there should

1:38:25

be. A victim's family should have the right to say,

1:38:27

you have this, I want you to do the genetic

1:38:29

genealogy, you can't just be like, oh

1:38:31

well, we have it and we're done. Or hand

1:38:34

it over, if you don't wanna do the

1:38:36

job, hand it over to some lab or

1:38:38

team of investors. I'm sure we could crowd

1:38:40

fund. Do you know what I mean? So

1:38:44

many of us are like, if I could just

1:38:46

get my hands on the physical evidence, we could

1:38:48

solve XYZKs. I mean, this happens all the time.

1:38:50

Well, and how many victim's families have come forward

1:38:52

and said, I don't think the person who's sitting

1:38:54

in prison actually killed my loved

1:38:56

one. Giving victim's families a

1:38:59

voice would also help the

1:39:01

defense in a lot of situations.

1:39:04

It's just prosecutors that

1:39:06

wanna defend their records that are like,

1:39:08

no, no, nothing to see here. I

1:39:10

mean, do you think the problem is, what a police agency,

1:39:12

I guess would say in this case, is like, it's a

1:39:14

cold case, it's still open. We don't give our files to,

1:39:16

well, but you're not doing nothing. No,

1:39:20

no, oh God. Look, whoever's

1:39:22

running for office out there, run

1:39:24

on this, figure this shit out.

1:39:27

Paul Doar, I just want

1:39:29

a PowerPoint presentation on

1:39:32

all the reasons why it is Paul. Hillary,

1:39:34

I love a PowerPoint. Ask Rabia,

1:39:36

I love a PowerPoint. There's a question

1:39:39

in the chat before we sign

1:39:41

off here. Do you think they're

1:39:43

not going to pursue because Paul

1:39:45

is dead? That's a dumb

1:39:47

reason not to. That's a dumb reason. It's a dumb

1:39:50

reason. Justice. Yeah, yeah. I'm

1:39:53

going to cover a case in Alabama this weekend

1:39:55

where the person who most likely committed

1:39:58

the murder died in so long. enforcement

1:40:00

was like, I guess,

1:40:02

yeah, forget it. You can't leave without

1:40:04

talking about your book, your new book.

1:40:07

Oh, hey, thanks. So in my fight

1:40:09

against the patriarchy and against insults, I

1:40:11

put out a grimoire of witchcraft because

1:40:13

nothing frightens men more than a little

1:40:15

bit of spell work. Oh,

1:40:18

amazing. I started kind of compiling

1:40:20

all the different journals I'd kept over the years.

1:40:22

And I realized what I was creating was a

1:40:25

grimoire, which is a book

1:40:27

that women historically kept of all the

1:40:29

life-saving knowledge that they wanted to... Oh,

1:40:31

I love it so much. ...remind themselves

1:40:33

of and also pass down to their

1:40:35

offspring. And so I wrote this grimoire

1:40:37

that's a mix of memoir, but also

1:40:39

magical thinking and tips and

1:40:41

general witchery. I

1:40:45

have never seen or gotten a

1:40:48

more beautiful book swag box than

1:40:50

what came with Grimoire Girl. It's incredible.

1:40:52

Your book was hard to live up

1:40:54

to, Raviya. The chai was like a

1:40:57

game changer. When

1:40:59

is that coming out on the market? Oh,

1:41:01

that goes for that. But the paper- I'm

1:41:03

talking about your like, emotional like, kitchen blends.

1:41:06

You know what? It's like one of the... It's been back-burner. I

1:41:08

need like a business partner to help me do it. But you

1:41:10

guys, you have to go get Grimoire Girl, Memoir of Magic

1:41:12

and Mischief. It is so powerful. It is beautiful.

1:41:14

I love it so much. We'll post

1:41:16

all about it when the episode comes out, but

1:41:19

where is the best place to get it? Your

1:41:21

website? Just so- You can get

1:41:24

the book literally anywhere. But I

1:41:26

also, I sign copies through

1:41:28

my local independent bookstore, Oblong Books

1:41:30