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plus. Hello everyone. My

0:32

name is Wesley Faulkner, the co-hosts

0:34

of Radical Respect Podcast. And

0:36

today I'm joined by my other co-host.

0:39

Kim Scott. That is

0:41

me. And we are here

0:43

today with Denise Hamilton, who

0:45

has written a book that

0:48

I'm so excited to share with everyone.

0:50

Because it is the book that every

0:52

single person in this country needs to

0:55

read at least once this year. All

0:57

right. So Denise, a little background

1:00

about Denise. Denise is a nationally

1:02

recognized workplace culture and DEI expert.

1:05

She is the founder and CEO

1:07

of Watch Her Work, a digital

1:09

learning platform for professional women and

1:12

all hands group, a workplace

1:14

culture consultancy. An

1:17

in-demand speaker and facilitator, she has consulted

1:19

for and presented to dozens of Fortune

1:22

500 companies, including

1:24

GE, Apple, IBM, Shell,

1:27

VP, and Meta, among

1:29

others. Her thought leadership

1:31

has been featured in Harvard

1:33

Business Review, Morning Joe, Fox,

1:36

Bloomberg, Newsweek. And she is

1:38

a regular contributor to MIT

1:40

Sloan Management Review. Denise

1:42

lives in Houston, Texas with her

1:45

husband and has one daughter, Indivisible,

1:47

which we're going to hear from

1:49

today is her first book. Denise,

1:51

welcome. Thank you so much

1:53

for having me. I'm so thrilled to be here.

1:56

I'm more thrilled. Yes. was

2:00

saying he barely knows you and he book

2:04

is already doing so

2:08

congratulations on on launch

2:11

and we would love to hear you

2:13

read the prologue to your book is

2:15

the best prologue I have read in

2:18

years so thank you for writing it

2:20

I know it's a labor of love

2:22

and why don't you just start reading

2:25

it and and then so

2:27

for our listeners out there we're not gonna

2:29

we're not gonna read my book today we're

2:31

gonna read Denise's and the Wesley and I'll

2:33

sort of jump in and ask you questions

2:35

as you go perfect yes and I'll take

2:37

notes what

2:41

does it mean to be indivisible

2:45

a few years ago I was scrolling

2:47

mindlessly through my phone when I saw

2:49

a statistic about the maternal mortality rate

2:51

in the United States black

2:53

women were dying in childbirth at

2:55

three times the rate of white

2:57

women according to a

2:59

2021 report from the

3:01

CDC the national average maternal

3:04

mortality rate for black women is

3:06

forty eight point nine deaths per

3:09

100,000 live births compared to fourteen point

3:13

seven deaths for 100,000 live

3:16

births for white women not

3:19

because they were in rural areas or

3:21

having their babies at home not

3:25

because they weren't vocal about needing

3:27

medical attention or didn't have money

3:29

for proper care so Serena

3:31

Williams nearly died because her

3:33

doctors initially dismissed her concerns

3:35

that she was short of

3:37

breath she insisted

3:39

she needed to be examined and the

3:41

doctors found blood clots in her lungs

3:45

black women were in the same

3:47

hospitals with the same doctors they

3:50

just weren't receiving the same treatment

3:53

at a time when these women were most vulnerable

3:55

they were dying dying

3:58

from difference I

4:00

was furious, apoplectic actually.

4:04

I remembered the terrifying experience of giving

4:06

birth to my daughter and as

4:08

a black woman myself, I was

4:10

enraged at the deep tragedy of having

4:13

to manage both contractions

4:15

and racism. I

4:18

didn't die. I consider

4:20

myself lucky, but I shouldn't have

4:22

to be lucky to survive. None

4:24

of us should. Can

4:26

we pause there? Yes. Can we

4:29

pause there? I want to

4:31

give some space for this

4:33

tragedy because it is so

4:36

horrifying and so profoundly

4:39

wrong and so shocking.

4:42

Every time I read about it, I feel apoplectic

4:46

actually. It

4:50

must have been very hard even just to write

4:52

these words. It

4:55

is because it's hard to

4:57

believe that they're true, to

5:00

accept that they're true. Because

5:02

if they're true, how can we

5:04

all not be in the streets like

5:06

screaming at the top of our lungs?

5:09

It's like if it's true and

5:11

we don't care, what does that

5:13

mean? I

5:16

don't even know what that means. Are

5:20

there statistics about other

5:22

kinds of operations that

5:25

both men and women have? I wonder,

5:27

are there different outcomes for men and

5:30

women? I

5:33

always wonder that. I've never read. Do

5:36

either of you know? I

5:39

can say that the statistics

5:41

that you're referencing about

5:44

childbirth specifically, before

5:47

I answer your direct question, is

5:49

that it was normalized with socioeconomic

5:52

conditions and still black women

5:55

were extremely on the

5:58

high end of the... the

6:00

difference. As for other

6:02

conditions in men and women, I'm

6:05

not exactly sure, but I know from

6:07

a race standpoint, I

6:10

remember seeing an interview with

6:12

doctors and old

6:15

medical books that had wrong

6:18

information about the pain

6:20

thresholds of Black people or

6:24

how thick the skin is for

6:26

Black people were still, I

6:29

think it was like over 30%, like it was a significant percentage

6:32

of medical doctors today still believe

6:35

some of those misconceptions. But

6:38

for men and women, I know

6:40

that this is all anecdotal, but I've

6:42

seen in the past, but I

6:44

can't recall the exact numbers, that women

6:46

especially get told that

6:48

they're being overdramatic, that they're

6:50

being told that they should just lie

6:52

down and calm down. And a lot

6:55

of their symptoms have been dismissed.

6:58

And I think that also contributed to like,

7:00

what is the number one cause of death

7:02

for women is heart disease, because

7:05

I think it

7:07

gets either misdiagnosed or not diagnosed at all.

7:10

Well, you have to remember, for

7:12

decades, literally all heart research was

7:14

done only on men. And

7:17

it was extrapolated to women. So

7:19

if they thought Wesley needed a

7:22

dose of two pills, if

7:24

you came in, they would just say,

7:26

Oh, let's just give Kim one pill.

7:28

Like, literally, that was how this was

7:30

done. Right. And like,

7:34

I think we're continually

7:36

unearthing these differential experiences

7:38

of care. And in

7:40

the book, I taught I have a concept, I

7:43

urge us to listen for echoes. And

7:46

these are echoes of disparate treatment that we're

7:48

still living with. And we don't always

7:50

know how to name them, you

7:52

know, but this is a perfect example of an

7:54

echo that needs to be stamped out. Yeah.

7:57

And they also don't test with different

7:59

hormones. levels for women

8:01

as well. And women

8:04

who are pregnant, especially are serviced

8:07

because they think that why

8:10

should we do that because it could be harmful to the

8:12

kid, which is also, but that means

8:14

that there is a huge vast emptiness

8:17

of research in terms of what drugs are

8:19

and are not harmful for people who are

8:21

pregnant. Yeah, yeah. And the same can

8:23

be said of menopause, right? This

8:25

idea that, you know, it's easier

8:27

to just label women histrionic or

8:29

yeah, ridiculous or whatever. It's like,

8:31

let's study this. Let's study this

8:33

like we study Viagra. Yeah, I

8:35

totally agree. And and I think

8:37

that part of the part of

8:47

what you read that makes me so enraged

8:49

is it's like this very dangerous combination

8:52

of power

8:55

and disrespect that

8:57

has got to be like, I'm sure

8:59

we can do all kinds of research

9:01

and medicine, but like there's also this

9:03

psychological power and disrespect like a doctor

9:06

has power and

9:09

if they don't respect their patient,

9:13

it's not going

9:15

to go, it's a disaster, you

9:17

know, for the care of

9:20

the patient and for the

9:22

doctor's outcomes also, you know, yeah.

9:25

And I think there's also like the it's a

9:28

great kind of physical embodiment of

9:31

the problem of the conversation, quite

9:33

frankly, because you have systemic forces

9:36

that are big and macro and

9:38

we're doing what we can to

9:40

disassemble those. But when

9:42

it comes down to it, that's one doctor

9:45

and one patient and

9:47

yeah wildly interpersonal. Yeah,

9:49

that power differential, the vulnerability creates a

9:52

space that I can lose my life

9:54

because you don't think I'm as interesting

9:56

as the person in the room next

9:58

to me. Yes. Yes, wild. Yes,

10:01

it is. It is. And

10:03

I don't know if this

10:06

sheds light on the problem or not, but

10:09

when my father, who's a white

10:12

man, when he was diagnosed

10:15

with late stage cancer, he

10:18

wanted to do one thing in terms of

10:20

his care and his doctor wanted to do

10:22

another. And he was weak at this

10:24

point, but he had gone through his life, a privileged

10:26

white man,

10:30

and I remember he said to his doctor,

10:34

this is my body, not yours.

10:38

But still the doctor was blowing him off.

10:41

And it was really shocking to see.

10:45

And I think Kate Mann calls this

10:47

empathy, where we have more empathy for this

10:49

man, but I was like, oh,

10:52

poor dad. I got really mad at

10:54

this doctor and kind of lit into,

10:56

yes, it is his body. And

10:59

we actually switched doctors, but I think

11:01

it was a lifetime of privilege that

11:03

allowed my father to assert himself in

11:05

that way. It made it easier for

11:08

him. Right. And

11:10

I think he was permitted, as so

11:12

often as the case, he was permitted

11:14

a full spectrum of expression, right? Yeah.

11:17

Because if I get upset and I

11:19

say, this is my body, I'm an

11:21

angry, difficult, irascible black

11:24

woman. I'm impatient. I'm

11:26

like, I don't have the spectrum. I'm

11:28

not permitted the spectrum of

11:30

expression of emotions,

11:33

you know? And that is, it's

11:35

so, it's, it's

11:39

soul breaking. Yeah. Not

11:41

be able to even scream for

11:43

help in a way

11:45

that I can rely on that scream

11:48

for help being responded to. Yeah.

11:51

And healthcare is way more important than food.

11:53

And I know you can't scream at the

11:55

people who serve you food. And when you

11:57

think about healthcare, if you

12:00

get on their bad side, then the

12:03

downside is so, so vast. So

12:05

it's also a real

12:08

sensitive relationship that you

12:10

have to navigate to make sure that

12:12

you say it in a kind way

12:14

so that you gotta force them to care about

12:16

you, which is really, really awkward as well. And

12:19

that's true throughout our whole life. That's

12:21

been true my whole life. If I

12:23

wanna be promoted, if I want to

12:25

make it home from a police interaction,

12:28

if I want my child to be

12:30

treated right at school, if I wanna

12:32

be respected in a store, there's all

12:35

these parameters on how I can conduct

12:37

myself, how I can behave, what's gonna

12:39

be acceptable and who deserves

12:41

support and kindness and who doesn't.

12:45

So this is a really graphic

12:47

example, but this theme plays

12:49

out across our whole lives. Yeah,

12:52

yeah, every aspect of it. And

12:56

I think your book is gonna help us

12:59

move things to a better place, I hope,

13:02

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13:37

Denise, do you wanna keep reading? Sure.

13:43

The next day, I came

13:45

across another objectively horrifying statistic.

13:49

The suicide rate among white men in

13:51

America is one of the highest in

13:53

the world. And

13:55

I felt nothing. I

13:57

didn't care. I didn't care at all.

14:01

In my experience, white men

14:03

had everything. They

14:05

were society's winners. They

14:07

got the good jobs and the nice houses,

14:10

and they didn't care about me. As

14:13

a Black woman, my whole

14:15

life had been spent navigating

14:17

their rules and battling their

14:19

countless arbitrary advantages. From

14:21

my vantage point, they had

14:23

every opportunity, and their wealth,

14:25

power, and success were usually

14:27

derived at the expense of

14:29

people who look like me.

14:33

Why do they need me to worry

14:35

about them? Who cares

14:37

what their struggles are? My

14:40

sleep was fitful that night. I

14:43

got up the next morning tired and

14:46

shaken by my deep hypocrisy.

14:49

Like so many of us, I told

14:51

myself the story that I was a good

14:53

person, kind, understanding,

14:56

and inclusive. But

14:59

when confronted with an actual

15:01

situation that challenged my beloved

15:03

story of the world, was

15:05

I? That

15:07

morning was the beginning of a necessary

15:09

process of exploration for me. How

15:12

did I get here? What did it mean

15:14

to be human? How were

15:16

we all connected? What is

15:18

our responsibility to each other? Can

15:21

we stop there? Yeah. Thank

15:24

you. That must have been really

15:26

hard to write also, in a

15:28

very different way. And that you're

15:30

able to hold both of these

15:34

sort of painful realizations at the

15:37

same time is remarkable. So

15:40

how did it feel to write that? Well,

15:46

it felt fine to write it. It

15:48

was hard to defend it. Yes. There

15:51

are people who read this early in

15:55

the process of the book who felt like, oh,

15:57

you shouldn't put that in there. Yeah, you were

15:59

reading. at oh

16:01

my gosh no and I and I

16:03

really felt strongly I really fought to

16:05

put it in there because I think

16:07

one of the problems of

16:10

of kind of like the expert

16:13

in our modern day society is

16:16

we we act present

16:19

and conduct ourselves as if

16:21

we're perfect and the

16:23

truth of the matter is none of

16:26

us are all of us are swimming

16:28

in the same toxic soup yeah and

16:30

do I think like you're toxic but

16:33

there's nothing about me that's toxic that's

16:35

crazy that's that's not how this would

16:37

ever happen and I think

16:39

that um you know

16:41

I'm a deep believer in the

16:44

power of stories how

16:46

stories inform us how they shape

16:48

us I didn't come to this

16:51

story easily this is

16:53

a hard-earned yes I've

16:55

been stopped on the side of the

16:57

road by the police and you know

17:00

I remember my daughter and I were

17:02

driving on a lonely country road um

17:04

I share this story in the book um

17:08

and I think she was in like second grade and

17:10

a cop pulls us over

17:12

and he basically

17:15

says like can I search your

17:18

car and he was a by himself and

17:20

I thought like no you can't search my

17:22

car like I like this is what me

17:24

thinking you might search my car like what

17:26

you don't have the right to this is

17:28

not legal you don't have the right to

17:30

do this but I had to quickly shift

17:32

over to yeah but

17:34

it's me him and my little baby

17:36

girl like I I gotta comply right

17:39

because they always tell you comply and

17:41

so I said sure fine go ahead

17:43

and search the car and

17:45

so he turns to me like it my daughter

17:48

and I wake her up she's asleep I

17:50

wake her up we get out of the car and

17:53

he tells me for my safety I

17:55

need you and your daughter to lay face

17:57

down in the dirt oh

17:59

my I got to search your car for

18:02

his safety. He's got the

18:04

gun, he's got the power, he can call

18:06

the background. And by the way, you stopped

18:09

me. I didn't stop you. You created this

18:11

situation. And now for your safety, I

18:14

need to lay face down in the dirt. And so

18:16

in my mind, like it's my mind

18:19

is racing because I'm like, this is ridiculous.

18:21

It's the outrage, it's the anger. And

18:23

I looked over at my daughter and she's crying. And

18:25

I say, but am I really gonna

18:27

risk of being harmed? Am I gonna risk

18:29

going to jail? And my daughter being in

18:32

foster care in some town

18:34

in the middle of nowhere. Like I had

18:36

to run through this calculus

18:38

so fast. Oh my God. And

18:41

we did it. We laid down in the

18:43

dirt face down. And I remember my daughter

18:45

was crying and I leaned over to her

18:47

and I said, don't worry honey, it'll be

18:49

okay. And I remember feeling

18:51

so profoundly, that's not true. Yeah.

18:54

It's okay, right? So my

18:57

feeling that I capture here, is

19:00

a legitimate, hard earned story

19:03

that I have in my head. But

19:06

I think that's the point, this is really the point

19:08

of the whole book. We

19:11

all have stories that we have

19:13

to allow to change. You have

19:15

to let the story

19:17

change or else it never does. Our

19:21

stories don't give us up easily.

19:23

And so when you

19:25

are confronted with new information,

19:28

what are you gonna do when

19:30

you hear a statistic that like

19:33

I say, is objectively horrifying and

19:35

you dismiss it, because it's not

19:38

you. Do you dismiss it? Because

19:40

it's those folks over there. That's

19:42

not my business, right? Like, have

19:44

we lost the sense that we

19:46

are truly deeply interconnected, right? It's

19:49

like we're sitting in a big boat, laughing at the people

19:51

at the front of the boat because their end of the

19:53

boat has a hole. Yeah. We're

19:56

all going down. We're all thinking, honey. We're all

19:58

thinking. of

20:00

like, what does that statistic

20:03

have to do with me? Yeah.

20:07

That was what I wanted to explore. Yeah.

20:10

And how, I mean, I want

20:12

to put myself in your shoes for

20:14

a moment, which I know is impossible because

20:19

I usually get, you know, unfairly

20:22

kindly treated by the police. But

20:25

like, if I

20:27

had been the one laying

20:29

in the dirt with my

20:31

second grade child, when

20:34

I read that statistics, statistic,

20:36

I don't think I would have

20:38

just felt indifferent. I would have

20:41

felt like good, you know, like

20:43

I would have felt a real

20:45

sense of vindictiveness. Like how do

20:47

you, which would have been not

20:49

a good thing to feel, but

20:51

how do you, how do you

20:53

avoid feeling that? Or do you?

20:56

You know, it's a beautiful

20:58

question. It's a beautiful, fair,

21:00

super honest question. And

21:02

it really underscores

21:04

like the incredible compassion that

21:06

lives in the hearts of

21:09

all marginalized people in this

21:11

country. The fact

21:13

that we don't run around screaming at

21:15

the top of our lungs all day

21:17

long, sometimes it's like a miracle, right?

21:20

Yeah. But

21:22

if I want a

21:24

certain level of compassion and patience

21:26

and understanding directed at me, and

21:29

I don't wanna be judged harshly as

21:32

having some particular type of behavior because

21:35

of what I look like, I

21:37

have to give that to other people. It's

21:40

just, like I have to. And

21:42

I do wanna say this, I do wanna, it's

21:45

very important. There are

21:47

different, you're allowed to

21:49

feel how you feel when you have

21:51

been harmed, right? And I'm

21:53

always very careful that, and I always wanna

21:55

make sure that there's people who like, say

21:58

like, be like Denise. No, no, no. No,

22:00

be like you, be how you feel.

22:02

You process it the way you process,

22:04

a harm that's done to you. I

22:07

don't police people's reaction, right?

22:10

I police the initial behavior

22:12

that elicits the reaction. So

22:15

this effort that

22:17

I describe in the book is a

22:20

constant effort of trying to stay open.

22:22

It's prying the door open, even

22:25

when really scary, horrible things encourage

22:27

me to close them. But

22:30

it's an effort and different people

22:32

are at different places along that

22:34

journey. And I want to respect

22:38

the individual's right to process harm

22:40

in the way they see it.

22:43

Yeah, I got it.

22:45

It reminds me of the trope of the

22:48

segmentation of this of

22:50

us and them and

22:53

how it's easy to think of they

22:55

have that problem and not we have

22:57

that problem. And the compassion

22:59

that it takes to be able to feel

23:03

compassion to someone who's in some ways

23:06

a different group than you. But

23:08

I also feel that people who are like

23:12

gold medalists in the struggle Olympics have

23:15

to practice that often enough that

23:17

they build that muscle because they

23:19

are trained to do so. So

23:22

it makes it a little bit easier for

23:24

them to have compassion for these different

23:26

groups because they see it all and

23:28

they understand what's going on. But also,

23:30

since we were talking about statistics earlier,

23:33

and also since I see that you're based in Houston,

23:35

I used to live in Austin. And

23:38

in 2016, I ran

23:40

for city council. I

23:43

got third place. There

23:45

are three candidates. And

23:49

and so basically, I had to put a lot

23:52

of my opinions out there because you

23:54

can interview it a lot. And

23:58

one person who was a judge. Uh,

24:01

call me out on one thing where I

24:03

said that, um, ID

24:05

laws to vote mandatory ID was racist. And

24:07

he's like, I don't see how it's racist. Everyone

24:09

has to have an ID and all this

24:11

stuff. And then I

24:14

said, well, if you look at the statistics,

24:16

you see that people who are over marginalized

24:18

communities are less likely to vote

24:20

or have a harder time voting than people,

24:22

uh, when

24:26

the ID laws are there than Pete, then before

24:28

they are there. He's like, yeah, but it's

24:30

not racist. I said, okay, then what do you

24:32

call it that these statistics are now known and

24:35

the people are passing these laws anyway? And

24:39

he gave a pause for a second. He's

24:41

like, oh, and,

24:43

and it's one of those same

24:45

things where these statistics are out there. They're like, oh,

24:47

it just is what it is. But

24:50

the people, the people's lack of compassion

24:52

and understanding that there, there is a

24:54

choice not to do anything about it.

24:56

That in itself is racist. Yeah.

25:00

Yeah. And we're, and we're, um,

25:03

it, the word racist is,

25:08

it's so inadequate. Yeah.

25:11

I think it's one of the most inadequate

25:13

words in our vocab really

25:15

sincerely. Um, um, you

25:18

know, the Inuit people, um, have

25:22

2030, I think almost 40

25:24

words for the word snow. Yeah.

25:26

Because if you live in a frozen tundra,

25:28

snow is very important. If it's wet, if

25:30

it's packed, if it's fluffy,

25:33

if it's light, if it's heavy, if it's,

25:35

you know, frozen, like it's like, that's very

25:37

important. We have the same

25:39

word for someone

25:41

burning across on my lawn. Yeah.

25:43

And the guidance counselor telling the

25:45

black kids, don't bother to apply

25:47

to that school. Cause you're probably

25:49

not going to get in like

25:52

those behaviors are so different, but

25:54

they all fall under this big.

25:56

And so it's made the word Almost

25:59

useless.. right? Like the

26:01

chaos. Because in a

26:03

people are so afraid of being

26:05

labeled, are called racist or a

26:07

system being called racist that they're

26:09

going to defend it's like it

26:11

doesn't even matter if it is

26:13

it's it's worth the be called

26:16

racist and is the be one.

26:19

And so. You

26:22

know that maybe that's the next ten

26:24

years of my life is figuring out

26:26

a new vocabulary. Because.

26:29

We're. Not communicating with each other,

26:32

Yeah. We're not. We're talking past each

26:34

other with that because. It. It.

26:38

Because. It's it's so difficult.

26:40

To. Talk simply and plainly

26:43

with each other around these

26:45

really complex topics. And like

26:47

I say in the section

26:49

like. Everybody. Thinks they're

26:51

good guy. Yeah. Everybody thinks

26:54

they're doing the right thing and they've

26:56

got this figured out. And when you

26:58

come along and you say. So

27:01

much. Fun

27:04

as it is a they. Can't focus

27:06

on the problem? They

27:08

have. they focus on the assault of

27:10

personal injury, the partly and and it's

27:12

like how to use. How do we

27:15

talk about this them Because if we

27:17

can't. Name. The problem

27:19

without you focusing on

27:21

the pejorative nature. Then.

27:24

How do we six anything an elder?

27:26

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27:28

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in my dentist's office. More than once, actually.

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28:30

See website for details. Yeah, I think

28:33

finding the right words is really

28:35

important. I also think finding the

28:37

right mindset is important. So one

28:39

of my favorite books is Carol

28:41

Dweck's book, Mindset, about a growth

28:43

versus a fixed mindset. And

28:46

I think when it comes to racism, white

28:49

people in particular who don't want

28:51

to be racist need to adopt

28:53

a growth mindset about this problem.

28:56

I mean, it's another way of saying be

28:58

anti-racist, I suppose. Because

29:02

if we had this fixed mindset where

29:04

if I say or do something that's

29:06

biased or racist, then I am racist.

29:08

And that's an attribute that I can't

29:10

change about myself, then I'm going to

29:12

resist any knowledge of what I'm doing.

29:14

Of course. That's why I'm racist.

29:16

Because if I want not to

29:19

be racist, then I need to welcome

29:21

the feedback that what I've said or

29:23

done is biased or racist.

29:26

And Wesley

29:30

and I have talked a bunch on this podcast

29:32

about sort of breaking down the

29:35

problem, bias, prejudice, bullying,

29:37

discrimination, harassment, and physical

29:39

violence. And then sort

29:41

of understanding the sort

29:43

of the slippery slope that one thing leads to

29:45

another. And also even

29:48

like how we talk about

29:50

those things. There's like

29:52

a whole category of behaviors that

29:54

we don't even have a word

29:56

for. I think about...

30:00

think about when George

30:02

Floyd is literally being

30:04

strangled by Derek Chauvin.

30:07

I've thought about

30:09

it quite a bit of like, why did

30:11

he do that? He could

30:13

have put him in handcuffs and put him in the car.

30:15

He could have put him in

30:18

handcuffs and left him on the ground. He

30:20

wasn't resisting. You know what I'm saying? Why

30:22

did he not? He did not need

30:24

to do that. And I sat and

30:26

I watched some of the bystander footage and

30:28

it occurred to me why he did it.

30:31

He did it to terrorize the

30:34

people watching, to let

30:36

the people watching know, I'm in

30:38

charge. I have the power.

30:41

You can't stop me. People

30:43

are running up, begging, pleading,

30:47

even menacing. Get off of him. Stop.

30:49

I can pull out my gun and I

30:52

can stop you. There's nothing you can

30:54

do about it. We don't

30:56

even have a word for that

30:58

level. It's the closest I have is

31:00

terrorism, but that's not even,

31:02

that's not even the right way. You don't

31:04

even have a word for that. So when

31:07

I'm talking to someone about a subject like

31:09

police brutality, we don't even

31:11

have an anchor point because

31:13

you don't understand what that

31:16

kind of terror feels

31:18

like from somebody that's supposed to protect

31:20

you. Yeah, right. Like, yeah,

31:22

it's not even an analogous experience that

31:24

I can, I can

31:26

refer to that will help you

31:29

to understand unless I really slow

31:31

down. I explain myself so carefully.

31:33

I try to find the right imagery

31:36

and I try to find the right language.

31:38

And in a world that everybody's in sound

31:41

bites and nobody wants to listen deeply, how

31:43

do I get you to understand

31:46

that kind of terror? You don't

31:48

have to be a hashtag to

31:50

be terrorized. Yeah. Yeah. And

31:52

so, yeah. So I think like this

31:54

idea of like the inadequacy, the

31:56

sheer inadequacy of our language and then.

32:00

the vast force of people who are

32:02

committed to

32:06

even bastardizing that language further. If we

32:08

come up with a word, we

32:11

try to explain it. Intentionally

32:13

misunderstand. We intentionally misunderstand and

32:15

put millions of dollars into

32:17

everyone misunderstanding. It makes

32:19

the evolution of the language harder,

32:22

which I have to believe is intentional,

32:24

right? Because there's money to be made

32:27

in division, right? They don't

32:29

make money when we all get along. No. And

32:32

at the same time, they're banning the books that explain

32:34

some of this as well. I mean, yeah.

32:37

I mean. Yeah, yeah. So

32:40

it is,

32:42

it's horrifying really. And

32:44

yet I think, you

32:47

know, as you say, storytelling is

32:49

so important. And I think

32:51

that, and

32:54

solidarity is so important. And

32:57

I think that's how we get to indivisibility.

32:59

Like is that storytelling and solidarity.

33:01

And story releasing. Yes,

33:04

story releasing. Story releasing

33:06

is actually put that in a book. That's a good little phrase.

33:08

It's iconic. And no matter how many of

33:11

these stories are out there, people still don't

33:13

understand the prevalence and how

33:15

widespread and how the frequency

33:17

of these interactions. I had a conversation with someone

33:19

else and I was talking about some issues with

33:21

my job history and stuff like that. They're like,

33:24

what? But you're in

33:26

tech. I was like, oh

33:28

yeah. I know. Oh God. It's not

33:30

better. Yeah. Yeah.

33:33

You know, I grew up in Memphis and

33:35

I sort of imagined when I moved to

33:38

the Northeast, there were, you know, things would

33:40

be, they weren't. I moved to California, you

33:42

know, wherever you go, there it is, unfortunately.

33:47

And yet I think, you

33:50

know, this, Denise, what you were

33:52

talking about, watching the murder

33:54

of George Floyd and wondering what

33:56

was going on with Chauvin. It's

33:58

like some, you know, There were no, at

34:01

that moment, there were no checks. He

34:04

perceived no checks on his power. And there

34:06

were, in fact, no checks. There was nobody

34:08

who was able to make him stop. And

34:11

he had some sort of rage,

34:15

you know? And I think the

34:18

checks and balances, what's

34:20

often called white privilege, is you have

34:22

checks on the power of the people

34:24

around you. Like, I remember when I

34:27

was a teenager, I got pulled over

34:29

by a cop. And

34:31

he started leering at me. You

34:33

know, I was wearing short shorts.

34:37

And I was, like, very uncomfortable. He

34:39

was in the back of his car.

34:43

And he starts telling me he's gonna

34:45

pull me over for vagrancy.

34:47

I was in high school and I didn't have

34:49

a summer job that year. And

34:52

I was like, what is he

34:54

talking about? But

34:57

all of a sudden, my privilege

34:59

asserted itself. This is the privilege

35:01

that shouldn't be privileged. This is

35:03

what everyone should have. And

35:07

he said as though it was a threat, I'm gonna

35:09

take you to the police station. I was like, please,

35:11

take me to the police station, anywhere but alone with

35:13

you is where I wanna be. But

35:16

I had every confidence that I would

35:18

do okay. In

35:20

fact, I would be treated very well at

35:22

the... The police station was gonna be all right

35:24

for you. You were gonna

35:26

make it all from the police station. Yeah, I was gonna

35:29

call my dad and my dad was gonna come in and

35:31

that cop was gonna be in trouble. But

35:33

he wasn't, he was a little surprised

35:37

that I was a little at my

35:39

attitude. And

35:41

then he

35:43

sort of said, what's your father do? And

35:45

now I know I'm off the hook. My

35:47

dad's a lawyer. But he still

35:49

wouldn't let me. It was like, oh, he's one

35:52

of those assholes. So I'm still

35:54

like, it's still a little dicey for me

35:56

there. But I can tell I'm winning.

35:59

And then he... asked me where I go

36:01

to school and I went

36:03

to the fancy girl school in

36:05

Memphis and then he was like,

36:07

oh this is a dangerous neighborhood

36:09

I better escort you home. I

36:11

was like totally a hundred

36:13

and I always feel bad about

36:16

that because I could have gone home and

36:18

I could have filed a complaint about him

36:20

you know and I that's what I

36:22

should that would that would have been using the

36:24

privilege that I had but like that's how it

36:26

it's just it's strange to

36:29

think about that like to break down

36:31

these these incidents where where he did

36:33

have some checks on his power he

36:35

could get in trouble with me. Right

36:39

and he ran you through the test right?

36:41

Yeah. Are you worthy? Are you valuable? Yeah

36:43

and I was like of course I am.

36:47

Right and and and it's really

36:49

funny like the you

36:52

use the word rage like we're talking

36:54

about Chauvin like he had this rage and

36:57

and I always think you know

36:59

it's weird how we expect 16

37:02

17 year old boys that are stopped. Yeah.

37:05

Literally harassed and cursed at and

37:07

whatever by police to have self-control

37:10

and maturity but the people that

37:12

are the police that the

37:14

key words of the peace don't

37:16

have that self control. Where

37:19

is their executive function? And

37:21

disclaimer, disclaimer, disclaimer there are a

37:23

lot of fantastic police officers in

37:26

our country that are doing an

37:28

incredible job and only want the

37:30

best for the people that they're

37:32

working with and

37:34

and I always call on those

37:36

officers to do their part to

37:38

excise officers that aren't doing what

37:41

they need to be doing you

37:43

know yeah they they're more empowered

37:45

to do anything than the rest

37:47

of us can do. Yes absolutely and

37:49

and it's puzzling to me why they

37:51

don't do more because because the the

37:54

the people in their ranks who are

37:56

who are behaving this way are ruining

37:58

it for their life. the

38:01

guns is why. Yeah,

38:04

I guess. And they rely on each

38:06

other for help and for support. And

38:08

you don't get a lot of points

38:10

because you know, a fellow officer like

38:12

I understand in crowd behavior, it's in

38:14

crowd behavior 101. Yeah, they want to

38:17

protect each other. And but

38:19

you're right that that protection has

38:21

this reverse effect of

38:23

really causing damage to the

38:25

whole profession. Yeah, unchecked power,

38:28

unchecked power just never really seems

38:30

to go well. No, right. And,

38:33

and you know, the other example where we've seen

38:35

this is the Catholic Church, right? I

38:37

know so many people that are so

38:39

deeply devout, like they are, they

38:42

truly deeply love God and want to

38:44

serve and want to care for people.

38:46

And the ministry is their

38:48

whole life. But who

38:51

when you if you stop 1000 people, and

38:53

you ask them, what happened to the

38:55

Catholic Church, I guarantee you

38:57

a pretty big percentage is

38:59

going to talk about the priests

39:01

and the pedophilia scandal. Yeah, that

39:04

was a small number of people.

39:06

But yeah, small number of people

39:08

were let allowed to act in

39:10

a young checked manner. You know,

39:13

any society any group is

39:15

judged by how the worst

39:17

behavior of its participants conduct

39:19

themselves what behavior is tolerated

39:22

or allowed. That's Yeah, that's

39:24

I didn't make up that rule. That's just yeah,

39:26

in nature. Yeah. So it seems like you would

39:28

work. You would work

39:30

earnestly to make sure that

39:32

your your for lack of a word,

39:34

your brand is protected by ferreting

39:37

out the bad actors in your environment,

39:39

right. But that's true for all of

39:41

us. That's not just true for them.

39:43

Like I have options. You have

39:45

the option to sit with somebody and they're doing

39:48

something that is out of line out of pocket.

39:50

And because we don't want to rock the boat,

39:52

we don't want them to be mad at us.

39:54

We don't say anything, right. And one of the

39:57

things I try to do in the

39:59

book is read try to get

40:02

people to roll this back

40:04

to human nature

40:07

and assess like what is

40:09

driving the choices that you make

40:12

so that you can control

40:14

it, interact with it, define

40:16

it, redirect it, as

40:19

opposed to here's this list of the words

40:21

you can't say. Yeah. Here's the list of

40:23

the things you can't do because there's no

40:25

list. There's long

40:27

enough. I can't tell you

40:29

how to handle those are

40:32

the strangest emails that I get.

40:34

I'm in this profession. What suggestions

40:36

do you have for me? I

40:38

do not have any idea what

40:40

you should do in your profession,

40:43

but I have a sneaky suspicion that

40:45

you know. Yeah. You know where you

40:47

recruit. Yeah. You know where your interns

40:49

come from. You know what you

40:52

look for in a candidate, right? Oh,

40:55

do they have a sexy internship from

40:57

Google? Yeah. Why is that important? That

40:59

just means their mom had a friend

41:01

at Google. You're like, you know what

41:04

I'm saying? Like you have to unwrap

41:06

the things that you're doing and you

41:08

don't need me to come

41:10

along and give you some checklist. You

41:12

need to read books like mine and

41:14

get what's the concept here and how

41:17

can I apply it in my own life?

41:19

That's the goal. People don't want to do the

41:21

work. They just want things handed to

41:23

them. They use the lazy web. This is just

41:25

give me the list. And

41:27

the thing about

41:29

a fixed list is that it's

41:32

subject to change, right? And if

41:34

you don't know the underlying rationale

41:36

behind all of this

41:38

thing, then that just holds no value

41:40

and you're unable to pivot or adjust

41:42

or to kind of acclimate to a

41:45

different environment because you don't understand the

41:47

spirit of what's being trying to be

41:49

communicated. Well, and Denise, you

41:51

did the work in your book and you

41:53

explained how you did it. Why don't you

41:55

read one more paragraph because I think this

41:57

will answer the next couple of paragraphs.

42:00

We'll answer the question. Just send, next

42:03

time somebody sends you that, just send

42:05

them this paragraph where I began to

42:07

read articles. You educated

42:09

yourself. I began

42:11

to read articles and watch documentaries

42:13

about this suicide scourge among white

42:16

men. I learned about

42:18

the factors that were causing them to

42:20

take their own lives so much more

42:22

often than the rest of the American

42:24

population. I read about

42:26

the loneliness epidemic, the isolation

42:28

and the loss of community. I

42:31

began to understand the part unfettered

42:34

access to guns played in this

42:36

battle. Most gun

42:38

deaths in the United States are

42:40

suicides. And white men,

42:42

despite the narrative you hear on

42:44

the news, are far more likely

42:46

to own a gun, even multiple

42:48

guns, than Black or Hispanic men.

42:52

I learned about the socialization

42:54

of white males towards psoasism,

42:56

secrecy and avoidance of mental

42:59

health care professionals. I

43:01

was confronted by a perverse tragedy.

43:05

White men are born with advantages

43:07

conferred by race and gender, but

43:10

commitment to the mythology of their

43:12

superiority was a trap. Loss

43:15

of a job, failure

43:17

of a business, loneliness

43:20

and underemployment, every

43:23

group experiences these things. But

43:25

for some white men, losing status

43:27

could be a death sentence. This

43:31

is so powerful, what

43:34

you're reading now and the

43:37

work that you did to come to

43:39

this understanding. The word

43:41

that you in those

43:43

paragraphs that most struck

43:45

me is this

43:47

feeling that you need to

43:50

consider yourself superior is

43:53

so strange. Like, where

43:55

does that come from? Like,

43:59

what is that? that about. I

44:02

remember when my children

44:04

were little, they were

44:06

talking about their school. They

44:08

went to Olone, which is

44:10

a public school in Palo Alto.

44:13

And they were saying, our school is the

44:15

best school in California because we have a

44:17

library. And I said, well, almost

44:20

every school, I mean, I wasn't trying, I was

44:22

just, I was like, what is this? Why do

44:24

we have to go to the best school? Like,

44:26

where does that belief happen? And

44:28

I said, almost every school in

44:30

California has a library. And they

44:32

were like, crestfallen. And I

44:34

said, but that doesn't mean

44:36

you can't love your school. Like, like,

44:40

what's that about? I

44:42

think that we have

44:44

wrapped up this idea

44:46

of capitalism

44:50

and personal

44:52

responsibility, and

44:55

like opportunity, the idea that

44:57

you too can be a millionaire,

44:59

right? A

45:02

billionaire. A millionaire is not enough.

45:04

I'm so sorry. I'm so passe.

45:06

I'm so yesterday. I'm so last

45:08

year with millionaire, billionaire, I'm sorry.

45:11

And the kind

45:13

of like the best part

45:15

of what's possible in America,

45:18

like that, yeah, that aspirational

45:20

story. And we do not

45:22

understand the downside of that. Yeah.

45:24

I love Mike Rowe, who does

45:27

the Dirty Jobs series.

45:30

And I think

45:33

we have learned to

45:35

disrespect work. Yeah,

45:38

that people that

45:40

pay their taxes are, are

45:42

schmucks. People that follow

45:44

the rules are, you

45:47

know, their marks to be

45:49

taken advantage of. And this

45:51

idea that it doesn't matter how

45:53

much money you have, you

45:55

need more, like, it's a

45:57

constant competition. And more importantly,

46:00

it doesn't matter how you got your

46:02

money. Yeah. Right. Right. You

46:04

can addict a whole nation to

46:07

opioids. And just go ahead and pay some money

46:09

and put your name on the way. Right.

46:12

Did you read Empire of Pain? I did.

46:15

Oh, my gosh, that book. I

46:18

mean, like, like we have this really, yeah,

46:21

habit of, of enshrining

46:23

failure, right? The kind of

46:25

the head, some of the

46:28

hedge fund guys, some of the folks

46:30

that kind of go into, you know,

46:32

this company has been in this small

46:34

town, it employs 2000 people,

46:36

and it's been here for 50 years. And

46:39

this financial body kind of

46:41

comes in and strips it of its

46:43

resources and pulls all the money out

46:45

and then says, Okay, our work is

46:47

done, saddled it with debt. And

46:50

then we're shocked when the plant closes

46:52

down. Yeah, and 2000 people are out

46:54

of work. And, oh, why are these

46:56

small towns in America dying? And we

46:58

act like we don't know what happened.

47:00

And those are the people that give

47:02

the talks at the big conferences, because

47:04

they're the winners, because they were able

47:06

to strip the value. I think

47:09

of it as I call them extractors. Yeah,

47:11

in the book, I have

47:14

a metaphor around owners and

47:17

renters, that we are overrun,

47:19

you know, with extractors. So in

47:21

my mind, what's the owner and

47:23

owner is concerned with

47:25

the long term viability of an asset.

47:27

So they fix the foundation and then

47:29

electrical panels and the plumbing, the unsexy

47:31

stuff that nobody's even going to see.

47:34

But I know that this is how

47:36

to preserve this asset for years and

47:38

years and years to come. renters

47:41

use peel and stick tile. Yeah,

47:44

because they're temporary users of that space.

47:46

They're just, they're just here for the

47:48

seat, that when is the lease up

47:50

and then I'm out? Right. And that

47:52

doesn't I'm not denigrating renters. I'm just

47:55

saying, we are not renters

47:57

of this country. We're literally the

47:59

owners. And we act like

48:02

extractors. We are overrun

48:04

with extractors. And we

48:06

have elevated these people and made

48:08

them gods and heroes that not

48:11

only are they not committed to

48:13

planting trees for the next generation,

48:15

they are pulling up the trees

48:17

that somebody else planted. Like, how

48:19

can these be the heroes of

48:21

the current American story? How did

48:23

we get here? So

48:25

this idea of celebration

48:27

of extraction as victory,

48:32

it has to, it cannot, it has to stop.

48:38

I have two quick questions. And just,

48:41

I haven't read the book unfortunately, I don't have a

48:43

copy, but is

48:45

the title of the book a

48:48

nod to the Pledge of Allegiance Indivisible?

48:50

It's the only place I've ever seen that word. I've

48:53

never seen that word again. And it

48:56

seems like, especially what you're saying in

48:58

the last part is that there's a

49:00

nod to American exceptionalism of like being

49:03

the best at being number one. And

49:05

only in this country could someone like Martin

49:09

Screlli, Farmer Bro, be

49:11

considered a polarizing figure instead

49:13

of a villain. Where

49:16

because they reached the top

49:18

or pinnacle of being

49:22

like willing to rob rich people

49:25

poor people that they could,

49:27

he could still be on other people's shows and

49:30

still be on someone's committee or board. Who

49:32

is, who? Martin

49:35

Screlli, he was, it's

49:38

Farmer Bro, I forget, but he,

49:40

I think he raised some

49:43

medication from like something like $30 to $800. Got

49:47

it. And people needed it

49:49

to live. And so he eventually- That was

49:51

probably made his money. Yes, he

49:53

eventually got sent to jail for

49:56

fraud or something like that. And there's

49:59

a lot. You can Google him. But

50:01

he's not been, like, I think he

50:04

bought, like, a very rare

50:06

Wu-Tang album, like, for $2 million.

50:09

And then Wu-Tang said, please give

50:11

it back, because we don't want you to

50:13

have it. Wow. We don't want you to have it.

50:16

It's just that someone like that. Yeah.

50:19

And someone

50:21

who is just considered, like, universally

50:25

disliked, going

50:27

back to Texas, like Ted Cruz, that

50:30

still could be, someone could be like, yeah,

50:32

I'm for that guy. I'm for that person. Oh, my

50:34

gosh. I have the best Ted Cruz story.

50:37

Oh, let's hear it. You remember the

50:39

freeze that we had in 2021? Like,

50:44

unbelievable. A whole state is

50:46

without power. We

50:49

are freezing to death. In Houston, we

50:51

don't have that kind of weather. So

50:53

people's houses weren't built for that. Even

50:55

your fireplace, if you have a fireplace,

50:57

it didn't really put out heat. Like,

50:59

it was really an incredibly tragic time.

51:03

I don't think the rest of the

51:06

country even understood how dangerous that storm

51:08

was. But

51:11

you've all heard how Ted Cruz took

51:13

his family to Cancun, because

51:15

he wanted to avoid the cold. And I

51:17

was talking with someone about that. And

51:20

I was horrified, because I was like, wait,

51:22

aren't you our leader? Like, aren't you supposed

51:24

to be helping? And the

51:26

other person said, Doldanese, what did you want

51:28

him to do? He's not an electrician. Oh,

51:32

god. And

51:34

that's why literally all these stories

51:37

are why I wrote the book.

51:39

Like, how did we get here?

51:41

How did we get here where

51:44

we find excuses for the most

51:46

ridiculous behavior? And

51:48

because we have this

51:50

ridiculous reductionist idea of

51:53

red or blue, how crazy is it

51:55

to think that the whole world can

51:58

be reduced to two per cent? perspective.

52:00

It's just the most thing in the world.

52:02

But let's put that aside. But the idea

52:04

that he's on my team. He's my guy.

52:06

So I'm gonna back his play no matter

52:08

what he does. It was

52:11

just shocking to me. And so

52:13

in this space, again, extractors, you

52:15

don't mind taking the paycheck. But when it's

52:17

cold, you're going to get your family nice

52:19

and warm. You're not going to be checking

52:21

on your constituents or seeing what you can

52:24

do to expedite resources like

52:26

none of that was happening. And you

52:28

live in a mansion. Yeah, the

52:30

richest part of town. Like, what is this

52:33

community supposed to do that literally has people

52:35

freezing to death in their beds? Like,

52:37

wow. And that idea this, this

52:40

like justification of

52:42

extraction, over

52:45

and over and over again, has had

52:47

the most dispiriting impact on

52:49

our whole culture on our society, because

52:51

now we've made it stupid to have

52:53

that job. It's stupid to work like

52:56

that. I don't know why you would

52:58

do that. I don't know why. That's

53:00

been everything is beneath everybody.

53:02

So what we end up having

53:04

is, like, nobody

53:07

feels like they own this place.

53:09

This is my house that I've

53:12

inherited. And I've got to sweep

53:15

the porch and I've got to

53:17

mow the lawn. And my turn

53:19

my generation's turn to renovate the

53:21

kitchen or update the bathroom. Like,

53:23

that's what we're supposed to be

53:25

doing. But everyone is like

53:28

just in their Lulu lemon sitting at

53:30

Starbucks. Yeah, check out. And so what

53:32

do we have to do to

53:35

kind of remind people of

53:37

the very necessary work of

53:39

America? This is not this

53:41

is not on autopilot. It

53:43

requires an investment. It requires

53:45

work. And instead of

53:47

doing that, we're not only not

53:49

doing the work. We're literally elevating

53:51

people who are famous for not

53:53

doing the work for creating work

53:55

for the rest of us. Yeah.

53:57

But we have other people like how do we

54:00

get here and I want with

54:02

the book to just remind people of

54:05

their power, remind them who

54:07

they are because we have forgotten who we

54:09

are. We are living beneath

54:11

our privilege. And so how

54:13

do we kind of lean back in and

54:16

find whatever our work is? And there's

54:18

a lot of messaging, right? If you're,

54:21

I mean, you're over 22

54:23

and you don't have a billion dollar

54:25

company. What are you even doing with

54:27

your life? You loser, right?

54:29

Like that's the message. We have all

54:31

these messages that tell, tell all of

54:33

us that we're nothing. Why?

54:35

Who benefits from all

54:38

of us thinking like we're nothing. Yeah.

54:40

Right? Yeah. Yeah. We always talk

54:43

about voter suppression. If voting didn't

54:45

matter, they wouldn't be trying to

54:47

stop you from voting. Yeah. They

54:49

do, right? Yeah. So I just

54:51

want to remind everyone who

54:54

we are and what we're capable

54:56

of. I think it's essential. You

54:59

know, that is a beautiful way

55:01

to end from your mouth to

55:04

everyone's ears, everyone in this,

55:07

in this country, because we should,

55:09

we should honor one another. We should honor

55:11

the work. And, and

55:15

we, we can get out of this mess. So

55:18

thank you. You did incredible work.

55:20

A true labor of love your book.

55:22

So thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

55:24

Thank you so much. I appreciate it.

55:26

I always, my mantra is

55:29

there's no greater gift than a gift

55:31

of your attention. So thank you so

55:33

much for reading it and for

55:35

caring about it. I'm so glad we got a

55:37

chance to talk today. Denny,

55:39

one more time, the name of your book and where people can

55:41

get it. The name of

55:44

the book is indivisible. And if you

55:46

go to indivisible now, you can see

55:48

all the places that you can order

55:50

it or walk into your local neighborhood

55:52

bookstore, independent bookstore and see if they've

55:54

got it and hold it up so

55:56

people can see it, know what it

55:58

looks like from those. Who

56:00

are watching on YouTube? All right By

56:05

five or six copies today and

56:07

share it Thank

56:10

you so much Thank you Thank

56:13

you for having on the podcast and for those

56:15

listening and if you have some comments on what

56:17

we discussed today Please send us an email at

56:19

hello at radical respect book

56:21

calm and we would love to hear from you