0:03

Hello, everybody. Welcome to the

0:05

Radical Candor podcast. I'm Kim Scott.

0:07

I'm Jason Roza. I'm Amy Sandler.

0:10

In the past, we've talked about how

0:12

to know whether or not being a

0:14

manager is right for you. And we've

0:16

also talked a lot about manager burnout.

0:19

Today, we're exploring the question, what

0:21

if nobody wants to be a

0:23

manager at all? Vizier, a leader

0:25

in people analytics surveyed 1000 individual

0:28

contributors about whether they wanted

0:30

to become people managers. Almost

0:33

two thirds, 64% said thanks,

0:35

but no thanks. There

0:37

was a TikTok video from a user

0:39

named Kia Abdul. And I hope I

0:41

got that name right with over 2

0:44

million views. And

0:46

in that TikTok, they were

0:48

equating management with an unpaid

0:50

internship due to all the

0:52

responsibilities that managers aren't compensated

0:55

for. There was another TikTok where another

0:57

user said that she stopped being a

0:59

manager in tech, because there was

1:01

no work life balance. She

1:04

had zero decision making power, and

1:06

felt that companies didn't care about their

1:08

people as much as they did about

1:10

the bottom line. So that

1:12

is what we're going to be talking about today.

1:15

Just a little bit more data. This

1:18

Vizier survey, they found that employee

1:21

ambition was

1:23

primarily outside the workplace, the

1:25

top three priorities. And just

1:27

think about it for yourself, does

1:29

this resonate the top three priorities,

1:31

spending time with family and friends,

1:33

two thirds of folks put that

1:35

as their top three priority, being

1:37

physically or mentally healthy, 64% and

1:41

traveling 58%. Kim,

1:44

Jason, any guess on where people

1:46

manager came in on those

1:49

numbers? I

1:51

bet it was number 11. Oh, so

1:54

good at repeating the notes. And being

1:59

a student. We the executive in this

2:02

list of twelve came in. Ah.

2:05

Dead last. so. The.

2:07

Question we're talking about today

2:10

is Kim and Jason. Can

2:12

we have a world without

2:14

managers? Know. We cannot.

2:17

Ah, and I think.

2:20

Like. It is So many things are

2:22

popping. In. My mind as you were

2:24

as as. You are describing these

2:26

that stock videos and particular and

2:29

I think if you become a

2:31

manager for money that is the

2:33

wrong reasons to become a manager.

2:36

Ah I mean I think ah

2:38

a. Professor. Of mine at

2:40

business school used to ask Richard Turbo

2:43

Usaf d Want to do the things

2:45

that managers do or do you want

2:47

to be a manager and the right

2:49

reason is to do the things that

2:52

managers do. I

2:54

think also on that. On

2:56

that dizzy or survey.

3:00

Or. Worse. Is

3:02

also. Like. Good worth,

3:04

worth that you love is to

3:06

me when up with that ahead

3:08

of travel and my list of

3:10

things I wouldn't always. cars are

3:12

often. I hate my job but

3:14

like once, not now I would

3:16

put you. Know work as

3:18

number three, right behind time

3:21

with loved ones and physical/mental

3:23

health. I can win as

3:26

and. That the other thing about work and a

3:28

know why I was. A spent all

3:30

say both days this weekend weeding.

3:32

Which. Is works that I love

3:34

to do and therefore I love

3:37

my yard. It does not compensate

3:39

for get paid for that work

3:41

but it it and and there's

3:43

a line and. Heart.

3:46

Of Darkness, a book about. What's

3:48

his name is working on his boat in

3:50

as there's a line in their words as

3:52

he did enough work on the boat that

3:55

he loved the work. I think work and

3:57

lover actually connected. and

3:59

so Anyway, that's not really a

4:01

way of answering your question. Well, it is. It's

4:04

a really interesting way because I think

4:06

even what we may have heard from

4:08

Professor Tedlow, going back to

4:11

this survey, the question

4:13

of why individual contributors don't want

4:15

to become people managers, 91% were

4:18

citing some kind of barrier.

4:22

And the top reasons that we're

4:24

deterring ICs from wanting to be people

4:26

managers, expectations for

4:28

increased stress and pressure, 40%, the

4:31

prospect of working longer, more hours

4:35

was The third one was

4:37

that people were happy with their current role. And

4:39

then the fourth one was a lack of

4:41

interest in leadership responsibilities. That was about 30%.

4:45

And so I think as

4:47

I reflect on that and what you're talking about,

4:49

the work itself,

4:52

you know, maybe if we ask

4:54

them about weeding, we might get a different

4:56

response, but the actual work of being a

4:58

manager does not seem, seems like

5:00

a lot of stress and pressure, the proverbial

5:03

juice not being worth

5:05

the squeeze, at least from some

5:07

of what we're seeing with these, I'd

5:09

say, TikToks and data. Yeah, I

5:11

mean, I think if you don't, if you're not

5:13

interested in doing the things that

5:16

managers do, if you do, if the

5:18

idea of having a one on one

5:20

with someone and asking them about their

5:22

life, if the idea of

5:24

having career conversations and trying to

5:26

understand what motivates people and how

5:28

you can help them take a

5:30

step in the direction of their

5:33

dreams, if those things

5:35

sound uninteresting to you, then

5:37

you should not, absolutely should

5:39

not become a manager. I

5:41

think I've told this story before, but you

5:43

know, play it again, Sam, I'm going to tell

5:45

it again. So,

5:47

so there

5:49

was a moment when I was working

5:52

at Apple, teaching, managing at Apple, and

5:54

we always tried to have these inspirational

5:56

leaders come in and, and, and kickoff

6:00

the class and there were

6:02

a lot of inspirational leaders at

6:04

apple. And one time i

6:07

never knew who they were like i don't

6:09

know who found these folks and brought them

6:11

in to kick off the class that i met

6:13

them usually as i walked in the door i'm

6:16

about to teach a stay in a half

6:18

long seminar and this guy walks in any

6:20

stands in front of the class i'm about

6:22

to teach any said well you all. i

6:25

have made a deal with apple they

6:28

do not ask me to manage

6:30

people and i continue to work

6:32

here. i

6:34

was like that is not really

6:36

the inspiring note. but

6:40

it was very honest actually i was able

6:42

to do something with that i was like

6:45

look if you all don't want to manage

6:47

people you should not you can have a

6:49

successful career at this company. As

6:51

we just saw with whatever his name

6:53

was it was super successful he made

6:55

a ton of money at apple but

6:58

he did not manage people because

7:00

he had no interest in managing

7:02

people so that's. One

7:06

of the things that was bringing to mind this you

7:08

were talking to me. emotional

7:10

labor has always been part of being a manager because

7:12

what you know what you said cam is like talking

7:14

to people about their lives and their goals and like

7:17

all of that stuff is true and it's a big

7:19

part of what being a manager

7:21

is but there's also like assigning. Work

7:25

and making sure that people that you're

7:27

holding people accountable to the things that they've agreed

7:29

to do or rather that you're

7:32

you know you're inspiring them to follow

7:34

through on the commitments that they've made. Is

7:37

like the positive way to say it but

7:39

i think in the last five years

7:41

in particular that like the emotional labor

7:43

has taken on a different tone like

7:45

that there's so much collective trauma from

7:47

the pandemic and. The

7:51

the like the refocus

7:53

the at least in the US the refocus

7:55

on the you know the fight for social

7:58

justice and equality. Like

8:00

the emotional labor has notched

8:02

up in a significant way.

8:06

And it often has, it has

8:08

something to do with helping people continue to enjoy their

8:12

work. But I

8:15

was talking to a friend of mine who is

8:17

an incredibly talented product manager

8:22

and someone who was like

8:24

one of my favorite people to work with. And

8:27

she basically said that between

8:30

the pandemic and having a kid, she

8:32

has lost the ability to think critically

8:34

about any time horizon beyond a

8:37

year. Yeah. Like

8:40

she can't think about it anymore. Like she's sort

8:42

of like, am I going to have a house

8:44

in six months? Is like that that's the level

8:46

of like plant future planning

8:48

that she's doing. And I think that's why a

8:50

lot of people are elevating these other things like

8:53

travel and spending time with loved ones and all

8:55

this other stuff, because, you know, we're,

8:58

we're still, the nerve is still pretty raw.

9:00

You know, people are still living with the

9:03

reality that, you know, it's

9:06

not the future is not guaranteed. And so

9:08

some of that, I feel like some of

9:10

the inspirational, like part of leadership and

9:13

people management has been replaced by,

9:16

by like supporting people in their

9:18

like trauma response to, to like losing a

9:20

sense of like where they're going in their

9:22

future. I, and I, I

9:24

would guess that that is

9:27

very obvious to the people

9:29

being managed. You know what I'm

9:31

saying? They know what they're saying in their one-on-ones. They

9:33

know what those conversations are like. And so they're like,

9:35

do I want to deal with me on a regular

9:37

basis? Like, no, I'm not someone else's job. Yes,

9:41

yes, yes. And I think,

9:44

you know, the a

9:46

lot of great leadership training comes out of

9:48

the military. And in

9:51

the military, obviously people,

9:53

I mean, trauma is

9:55

inherent in the job. If You're,

9:58

especially if you're in. A Combat.

10:01

Situation. And. I

10:03

think that the The Millet, the leadership,

10:06

Training in the military is always then in a

10:08

you take care of your people and your people

10:10

take care. Of of the work and

10:12

I like your job as a leader

10:14

as first and foremost. To

10:17

take care not only of people, but

10:19

people and their families and. At

10:22

So I don't think this is new

10:24

per se. I mean, trauma is not

10:26

new, there's been trauma for. I mean

10:29

I think maybe our willingness to talk

10:31

about trauma is maybe a little bit

10:33

know, but people have been traumatized always

10:36

forever. Hundred percent agree, but I think people

10:38

are. That. It's not new.

10:40

You are correct, yeah, but I

10:42

think there's a changed expectation as

10:44

to who has to our managers'

10:46

responsibility in helping. And individual

10:49

contributor manage that like match

10:51

their other on either that

10:53

or lives Yes. Yeah, I

10:55

think Amazon Peace and Know as as

10:57

a Reddit thread arm and clear guidance

10:59

and I'm just gonna read it because

11:01

I think it mates. Flesh

11:04

Out Jason what you were sharing with your

11:06

own reflections is has caught been a managers

11:08

the most lonely role as ever had. Like

11:10

you get shit from both directions and you

11:12

don't really have peers to complain to you,

11:14

just kind of have to deal with it

11:16

all in your own. And. Not sure if

11:18

this is just my company, but a lot of the

11:20

stuff I hate is what I have very little control

11:22

over. Strategy. Get set by

11:24

my manager, salary and policies by Hr.

11:27

I just get to communicate this lovely

11:29

stuff backwards and forwards. The did I

11:31

like is the stuff around building a

11:33

great team and coaching people. But.

11:35

The negatives outweigh the positives ninety percent

11:38

of the time. I. Think that's

11:40

very well said sir. The problem of

11:42

being a middle manager. I mean.

11:45

That when you're a middle

11:47

manager, you own decisions that

11:49

you weren't necessarily involved in

11:51

making, and that you may

11:53

disagree with vehemently. And I

11:55

think it's really important to.

11:57

Think. About. How. Did. with

12:00

that and to be very explicit about how to

12:02

deal with it. And I

12:04

think the most important thing you can do

12:06

when you're in that situation of having to

12:09

communicate a decision that you disagree with to

12:11

a team of people who know you well

12:13

enough, they're going to be able to tell

12:15

that you disagree. But

12:19

it doesn't do any good to say, yeah,

12:21

this is stupid, but we have to do

12:23

it anyway. That's not inspiring for anyone, although

12:25

it may be tempting. I

12:27

think the thing you want to do is

12:30

you want to, before communicating the decision, you

12:33

want to go to your boss and

12:35

ask some questions. You

12:38

want to try to understand the

12:40

rationale behind this decision, which still

12:42

doesn't mean you have

12:44

to agree with it. But

12:46

if you take the extra time to

12:49

try to broaden your perspective,

12:51

because very often when a

12:55

decision gets made, it gets made

12:57

by people who are taking 12

12:59

things into account, whereas you're

13:02

taking one thing, your team's thing

13:04

into account. And so

13:06

it may not make any sense from where

13:08

you sit, but when you try to understand

13:10

the broader picture, even though you still

13:12

disagree with it, you may be able to at least

13:14

acknowledge these other points. And I

13:17

think that can be very helpful both

13:19

in terms of communicating with your team,

13:22

but also in terms of growing in your

13:24

career and trying to understand your boss's point

13:26

of view and a different

13:28

perspective. That's great guidance. As

13:30

you were talking, what it made me think is it's

13:33

almost the same guidance as what do

13:35

you do when you get feedback you disagree with, which

13:37

is you have to find the part that you do

13:39

agree with and focus on that.

13:42

That's the way to move forward. We

13:44

don't want to reject out of hand something just

13:46

because we don't agree with part

13:49

of it. And I think,

13:51

you know, just Kim, you're calling out

13:53

the piece about middle management is a

13:55

really important one. There was

13:57

a piece in In Fortune and they... We're

14:00

sharing some research around out roughly

14:02

two thirds of leaders reported having

14:04

more responsibilities at work now than

14:06

they did pre Pandemic on which

14:08

was shared by a third of

14:10

individual contributors. and so this increase

14:12

in responsibilities has led to an

14:14

increase in anxiety and at share

14:17

some middle managers calling them in

14:19

own organisations. shock absorbers are in

14:21

a particularly difficult spot. Because they

14:23

are, they lack the senior leadership

14:25

see no access to support read

14:27

resources. They have to enforce these

14:29

policies they may not endorse. I

14:31

just wanted to kind of reinforce

14:33

this role of in a were

14:35

middle manager said but also going

14:37

back to listen to what you

14:39

were saying about kind of. Where.

14:42

We were before the pandemic, and now that.

14:44

You. Know not only having. The.

14:46

The actual emotional trauma and physical

14:49

trauma that people have navigated. But

14:51

also there's people that have. Far.

14:54

More responsibilities and they may have had.

14:57

Three. Four years ago. I.

14:59

Am I was gonna say i think. Part.

15:02

Of what happened is is that companies were like

15:05

we don't know what to do this when I

15:07

can provide mental health benefits, when I can provide

15:09

you additional resources Be know people have these problems

15:11

Manager deal with it. Like.

15:14

That's what happened to the majority of managers

15:16

in the pandemic. They're. Just basically told

15:18

like we know all these things happen when

15:20

I spend any more money on resources or

15:22

help for you and you have to deal

15:24

with it. So. That I

15:27

think like even though it might not

15:29

be sort of on cheaper and increasing

15:31

responsibility, I think there might have been

15:33

an increase in frequency of having to.

15:35

Sort. Of perform some of the responsibilities of

15:37

being a manager without any additional support.

15:40

My theory Want to One I'm

15:42

positing I'd seems you backed up by

15:45

the data is that people are

15:47

beating. The their meeting employees

15:49

in some state of crisis forgot

15:51

trauma just like some Cf crisis

15:53

more frequently on earth by a

15:55

more regular basis. Yeah, right now

15:57

than they did. Ten. years ago

16:00

Yeah and it might actually be the

16:02

case that we're meeting the same number of

16:04

people and about the same level of crisis

16:06

but people are more willing to reveal that

16:08

there is some state of crisis that works

16:10

i might be the case of the yeah

16:12

with the case people just uncomfortable talking about

16:14

it. So you could be like society you

16:16

know maybe net net it's an improvement from

16:19

the perspective of a manager who's like how

16:21

many times a day do i have to

16:23

put on like my crisis management hat. Yeah

16:25

i think they're picking that had up and putting it

16:28

on a lot more frequently than they can they at

16:30

least they perceive they were in the past. I

16:33

am so and i think

16:35

that. There's

16:37

a fixed number of hours and energy

16:39

is a is a is a sort

16:42

of is a depletable resource and

16:44

so when you say hey it's your job and

16:47

then you're also like but it's also your job

16:49

to do the goal setting pricing. Yeah

16:52

yeah it's like that's also your job that's

16:54

how you wind up with a stack of

16:56

plates that's like way bigger than you can

16:58

possibly clean in your in a shift like

17:00

every day you come in and there's a stack of dirty

17:02

plates on your desk. You know like okay i'm gonna try

17:04

to get through my stack of dirty plates but

17:06

there's no time at which you get to the

17:08

bottom of the stack i think that's how a lot of managers

17:11

feel i think a lot of individual contributors

17:13

feel the same way but at least

17:15

in this data it's at a slightly lower

17:18

like it's a lower percentage of the

17:20

overall population than manager. Yeah

17:22

that makes sense you know so i think

17:24

as we try to give some guidance to

17:26

to the group there was

17:28

a an entrepreneur.com piece where

17:30

visitor CEO ryan wong shared.

17:33

Quote one important step is

17:35

to redefine the meaning of

17:37

manager partly this is about

17:39

reconceptualizing the role the tech

17:41

industry for instance has popularized

17:43

player coaches. These are

17:45

employees who continue to contribute as

17:47

individuals while also leading small teams

17:50

of trusted. Colleagues well

17:52

this balance can be challenging to

17:54

strike the upside is sustained engagement

17:56

with your field and growth of

17:58

new management skills. So

18:00

I'm curious, Kim, Jason,

18:03

do you see, is there a need

18:05

for companies to start to maybe separate

18:07

out some of these parts

18:10

of a manager's role?

18:13

What do you think is a path forward to make

18:16

being a manager more attractive?

18:20

I think explaining to people what managers

18:22

do and being very clear

18:24

about it is

18:26

important. Managers should be

18:28

soliciting feedback before they give it. They

18:31

should be giving praise. They should be

18:33

giving a certain amount of criticism in

18:35

these impromptu conversations. They should be

18:38

having career conversations. They should

18:40

be just spelling out what

18:42

managers do. I think another

18:45

metaphor is not going to solve the problem.

18:49

I don't know that this is

18:51

a metaphor. It sounds to me

18:53

like they're actually trying to maybe

18:56

even separate out the coaching part with

18:58

the responsibility part when I see player

19:00

coaches. That's how I interpret it. I

19:02

don't know, Jason, do you read it differently? Here's

19:06

the problem with that sentence. It

19:11

is the part that reads, small teams of

19:13

trusted colleagues. My

19:18

experience with the tech industries embracing

19:20

of player coaches is that they're

19:22

like, you're going to be a player coach

19:24

and we're going to give you the same size team as

19:26

we used to give people who were only people managers. You're

19:29

still going to get a team

19:31

of 10 or 12 or 15

19:34

people that you're responsible for, but

19:36

you're also going to have individual

19:38

contributor responsibilities and strategy responsibilities and

19:40

communication responsibilities and HR responsibilities. Now

19:44

we're back into the TikTok where this

19:46

is an unpaid internship. You

19:48

still won't be able to buy a house or afford you

19:51

to pay off your student loan. I

19:54

don't have my good microphone. No,

19:56

you're exactly right, Brandy. If

20:00

middle management is the stuff that people have

20:02

to take and there are certain and like

20:04

they're cern unavoidable things about being a middle

20:07

manager I think that emotional labor is unavoidable.

20:09

You should embrace it. You should look forward

20:11

to it. It should be part what gets

20:13

you excited as like I'm going to help

20:15

this team the As ah be a sort

20:17

of like happy and functional as they possibly

20:19

can to achieve our goals and maybe take

20:21

a step in and direction their dreams like

20:23

Emotional Labor Party have to be excited for.

20:26

But. Like the unavoidable parts of like

20:28

communicating decisions that other people make.

20:30

Those that's just unavoidable. That unavoidable

20:32

part of like having to. Ah,

20:36

To assign work that you know that

20:38

is not a thing of, people are

20:40

most excited about unavoidable artwork. I don't

20:42

think it is unavoidable that people must

20:44

be player coach, as I think there's

20:46

a possibility of least in my mind,

20:49

that you could have a role that's

20:51

primarily focused on people management. It

20:53

doesn't mean that you never such a project

20:55

again. But. I do think this idea

20:57

that. You. Know. If. You

20:59

treat managers as. Half an

21:02

individual contributor and half. A

21:04

coach Or half a player and half a coach. Or

21:07

I feel like that. That. Ideas as

21:09

like dead On arrival. Ah, because

21:11

one or the other of those things is

21:13

going to be significantly undermined by the company's

21:15

inability to to like properly assess how much

21:18

a single human being and possibly do in

21:20

both those roles. there might be a company

21:22

and busier might be the one where they

21:24

actually you know I could see a player

21:27

coach if you have a team of three

21:29

or a team of four. And.

21:31

Like you've worked for them for a long time

21:33

and you truly have an individual contributor Role could

21:35

work. But that's not

21:37

my experience like most companies don't. Actually I

21:39

thought how the allocate resources in the player

21:41

coach role. They they did

21:43

treat management like an an

21:46

unpaid internship. I think that ragu that

21:48

like when you gets on with your work send

21:50

you can manage. Yeah, or or you

21:52

manage all day long and then you do your.

21:54

Work and now all night on?

21:56

Yeah, now I have. Ah, and

21:59

that's bad. that is

22:01

not sustainable. I

22:04

think also, I mean, the thing that

22:06

I think they're trying to get at

22:09

with Player Coach that I do think

22:11

has some merit is

22:13

that, when

22:16

you become a manager, you shouldn't expect

22:18

people to do what you say. Right.

22:21

I think one of the things that

22:24

sometimes causes new managers real

22:26

stress is, they

22:28

become a manager and they expect people

22:31

to do what they say. They

22:34

don't know that telling people what to do

22:36

doesn't work. Then they feel like either there's

22:38

something wrong with them or there's something wrong

22:40

that their direct reports are

22:44

intransigence or not doing what they

22:46

say. Then

22:49

they start behaving really stupidly and

22:51

being cruel to others. That's

22:55

how the brutal incompetence

22:57

comes into management. I

23:01

think that's true in general. In

23:03

life, I mean, the times when I have behaved

23:06

my worst are those times when

23:08

I really expected someone to do

23:10

what I said, to listen to

23:12

me, and of course they didn't.

23:15

Then I felt my authority was

23:17

challenged and my ego kicked

23:19

in and I

23:21

did something that I regret. Yeah.

23:24

I think teaching people when they

23:26

become managers, don't expect

23:29

that people will do what you say because you have

23:31

this position. I think the quote

23:34

from Bill Clinton is, being

23:36

the president is an awful lot

23:38

like being the overseer of a

23:40

cemetery. There's a lot of people

23:42

under you, but nobody's listening. I

23:47

don't think I ever heard that one. Oh, you

23:49

haven't heard that one? No. That's a good one.

23:52

That struck me when I was managing. I

23:56

think I was at Juice when I heard him say That. That's

24:00

how the revolution begins with with

24:02

the at the amazing as from

24:04

us at the cemetery I found

24:06

ah the we're what's on your

24:08

mind. The the principle of

24:10

player coach like to me the the

24:12

reason why the concept is valuable is

24:15

because we want managers have. Good.

24:18

And not like good enough. Skills.

24:20

That. When the team needs it

24:22

or an individual needs that, they can kind of

24:24

roll up their sleeves and and health. I.

24:27

Think of the of. Like.

24:29

This. It's really important not to lose.

24:32

Ah, I'm not a lose. The ability to

24:34

like actually do some of the work you don't

24:36

need to be will do absolutely everything on the

24:39

team. like the value of a team is like

24:41

you can hire specialist who can do things that

24:43

no one else can do a massive better and

24:45

faster. What like if you if you really aren't,

24:48

if you if you become allergic to the work

24:50

here to you're gonna be done the water because

24:52

people will sense that you're unwilling and unable to

24:54

help. If you

24:56

do all the work you also be since I

24:59

this is the as as he manager vs micromanager.

25:01

ah dichotomy but you want to be able to

25:03

be a foreigner but sometimes being a top earner

25:05

actually means like getting your hands dirty and doing

25:07

some of the work like in order to be

25:09

a good thought party have to be like down

25:12

in the mock. But. The Persian and

25:14

sorting through it to find the brass. Yes,

25:16

Yes, and they have to notice that

25:18

when they come and talk to you.

25:20

you helped them. You know

25:23

at see something that they said otherwise

25:25

not have achieved or do something faster

25:27

or they help you know and and

25:29

you have to know. What the work

25:31

is in order to be able to get

25:34

that kind of that? Isis as a general

25:36

rule. Yeah, I would. Like to get

25:38

your your advice on what can

25:40

people do and especially whether I

25:42

am a middle manager or I

25:44

am. i am in an

25:46

organization where we are having we seen

25:48

our survey results and and there there's

25:50

reinforcing what we've just been talking about

25:53

self one of the things again from

25:55

this this year study it said for

25:57

for employers code only twelve percent of

25:59

or Respondents say that nothing would

26:01

convince them to become people managers

26:04

Unsurprisingly pay is the primary

26:07

motivator for respondents 71%

26:10

saying better compensation would incentivize

26:12

them to become people

26:14

managers 45% say

26:17

better benefits and 26% say

26:19

more opportunities for a career

26:21

advancement So I know

26:23

Kim we started off with you saying, you know,

26:26

sort of don't go into it just for the

26:28

money But to me I kind of interpret this

26:30

more about if this is this unpaid

26:32

Internship and I'm having to do all these other

26:35

Responsibilities that haven't necessarily been

26:38

explicitly Named that that's

26:40

what people are asking for that. They

26:42

want to be paid for For

26:46

being both the sort of player and the coach

26:49

Is that how you read that? I

26:51

read that when when you were reading that

26:53

what I was thinking is people are not

26:56

Explaining what the job is and therefore people don't

26:58

want to do it. Um, I

27:00

mean, I think like if you become

27:02

a lawyer only because you want money

27:05

you're not gonna be a happy lawyer I just I

27:08

think that you need to be able to

27:10

under and I think part of the problem

27:12

with management is either it gets treated like

27:15

an unpaid internship or

27:17

it gets treated as this thing you have to

27:19

do in order to advance in your career and

27:22

and that is Those

27:25

are both bad reasons to become

27:27

managers You become a manager because

27:29

you want to do the

27:31

job and you find it exciting and

27:33

then to Work with a team of

27:35

people and help them take a

27:38

step in the direction of their dreams So

27:40

do is it a problem that

27:42

we going back to employee ambition

27:44

that there's a large number

27:47

of you know Number 11 people manager and

27:49

C-suite executive number 12 like is that an

27:51

alarm bell or is that what is that

27:53

signaling? Kim as you were as you

27:55

were saying that one of the things that that it brought up

27:57

for me is I think there There's

28:01

organizations and managers are in

28:03

kind of a double bind,

28:05

but it gets created by,

28:07

you were talking, Kim, earlier about how at

28:09

Apple there was these sort of parallel tracks, right?

28:11

There's like a technical track that you could use

28:13

to advance in your career, and then

28:15

there's this management track. And

28:18

in my experience, in

28:21

order to advance in the technical track, it

28:24

requires, there's like hard skills. There's like, yeah,

28:26

there's very, very, very sort of like specific

28:28

things that you need to be able to

28:30

do, types of complexity you need to be

28:32

able to handle and all this other stuff.

28:35

But before you get to the sort of

28:37

like, the staff engineer is like a common

28:39

title for the person at

28:41

the top of that career ladder. Before

28:45

you get there, there's all these other stages. And it's sort

28:47

of in some ways, there's almost

28:49

like an apprenticeship model as you

28:51

move up, which is like, there's

28:53

slow expansion of responsibility. You

28:56

sort of get bigger scope of projects and things like

28:58

that. In the management track,

29:00

there's a step, there's like an

29:02

individual contributor to manager. And

29:07

already you're sort of expected to be able to handle all

29:09

these things. And so part of what I

29:11

hear you saying is, if we're not explaining

29:13

what the job is, if we're not teaching people how

29:15

to do the job, like to do the work of

29:18

being a manager, we are

29:20

creating a, this is the double

29:22

bind of the organizations have created

29:24

them for themselves. There's no sort

29:26

of like soft on ramp to

29:28

management in most organizations, in

29:30

part because they don't even know what they're asking

29:32

people to do. So just by defining it, be

29:34

clear about it, that would take a step in

29:36

the right direction. But then like helping people, training

29:38

people, finding some way to sort

29:40

of create that apprenticeship model that

29:43

gets exists in the technical tracks

29:46

for a manager might get people more excited.

29:48

You know what I'm saying? Because right now

29:50

it very much seems like I'm expected to

29:53

make this sort of step function zero to

29:55

one change between my current role and a

29:57

manager. And then I'm kind of and

29:59

I know all the bad. stuff that comes with it,

30:01

but I don't have the opportunity to experience the really

30:03

good stuff that comes along with being a manager. And

30:06

I don't even know what it is, what I

30:08

have to do. Like you

30:10

said, you have to learn hard skills to

30:12

progress in your technical, on the technical track.

30:15

I would say you have to learn harder skills to

30:18

progress as a manager. Yeah, I didn't mean one was easy

30:20

and one was hard. No, I know. I know you didn't.

30:24

I mean, they're often called soft skills, but these

30:27

are really difficult things to learn, much more

30:29

difficult, I would argue, than learning a new

30:32

technical skill. And

30:35

yet they often don't

30:37

get defined or taught or

30:40

valued, especially. And that's why nobody

30:42

wants to become a manager because

30:44

it's like, what is the job?

30:48

Yeah. So in some ways, if we were

30:50

to go back to the busier CEO

30:53

who was making the claim that we need to

30:55

redefine the role, I think we're making the argument,

30:57

first, you need to define the role. Yes. Yes.

31:01

And player coach does not count as defining

31:03

the role. Right. So

31:05

step one for organizations who are seeing this

31:07

as a warning sign, because Amy, to respond

31:10

to your question specifically, I do think it's

31:12

like a big blinking red light. Yeah. If

31:15

people are, if the majority of people who are

31:17

responding to that survey are saying, I

31:20

do not see it as like a

31:22

career objective for me to become a

31:24

manager, that means that your pool is

31:26

very small. And if the majority

31:28

of the people who are putting their hats in

31:31

the ring are doing it because of the additional

31:33

money, you're going to be promoting a lot of

31:35

people who shouldn't be managers in

31:37

the first place. Like there's just no way. Who don't want

31:39

the job. Yeah. Right. Who

31:42

don't want the job. So step one is defining the role. And I think

31:44

step two is like giving people a

31:47

way to experience the great parts

31:49

of management, like the exciting part

31:51

of helping. So

31:54

a concrete example of this might be a

31:56

buddy or mentorship program. A buddy

31:58

or mentorship program is a great way to give people a way to experience the work people a

32:00

taste of what it's like to be a manager,

32:02

right? That's sort of like coaching and developing somebody

32:04

else. They're proven to

32:06

be really good for retention, meaning like

32:09

they're great programs for retaining the talent

32:11

that you hire. And

32:13

it gives you a taste of like, you know,

32:15

if I was doing this for four or five

32:17

or six people, would that be a great, would

32:19

I consider that to be a great way to

32:21

spend, you know, a significant chunk of my time? Yeah,

32:25

and in the military, that's called the

32:27

non-commissioned officer, right? Someone who has been

32:29

in your job, is no longer doing

32:32

your job, is like riding along with

32:34

you and teaching you how to

32:36

do the job. I

32:38

think most companies can't afford to hire

32:40

a manager to teach a manager, but

32:42

it would be great if they could.

32:45

I think that's great. And I really appreciate the

32:47

tips, Jason. I think you just gave us our

32:50

tips. Before we close, Kim, I wanna

32:52

go back to when

32:55

you were at Apple and the guy who said,

32:58

this is the work that I wanna do and I wanna

33:00

get paid for this work. I'm curious, was

33:03

there an example that you had in

33:05

your own career, whether at Apple or

33:07

somewhere else, where you saw what it was

33:09

like to be a manager and that inspired you?

33:11

Like, what would have been the inspirational

33:15

either mentor or conversation that you

33:17

were like, oh, okay, this is

33:19

something that is actually really

33:22

interesting for me. When

33:24

I was working in

33:27

Moscow for this diamond company, and I

33:29

had no interest in diamonds, like I wound

33:31

up there in a random way, I

33:33

had a boss who would call me

33:35

first thing in the morning and

33:37

just ask me what was going

33:39

on. And I really enjoyed talking

33:41

to him and I realized

33:44

that his job was to help

33:47

me feel more

33:49

comfortable and free to do my job. And I

33:51

was like, oh, that's kind of fun. So

33:54

that was one moment where I

33:56

sort of, I remember feeling

33:58

like Oh, I

34:00

could have an interesting career doing what

34:03

he's doing. And then there was another

34:05

moment at business school when we were doing

34:08

the case on the

34:10

Tylenol poisoning and the Credo

34:13

challenge. And the

34:15

new CEO of Tylenol in 1976 or

34:17

whatever. J&J? Yeah.

34:20

Oh, J&J, yes, sorry. Spent

34:23

a bunch of time working

34:26

with his team to rewrite the

34:28

Credo. He spent his first five

34:30

months as CEO traveling around the

34:32

world and rewriting the Credo. And

34:36

I remember thinking, that's what CEOs do? I could

34:38

do that with the CEO's fun. So

34:45

those are my two stories about

34:47

this time. He credited the company's

34:50

ability to respond so well

34:52

to the poisoning with

34:54

having spent those five months rewriting

34:57

the Credo because people really knew

34:59

what was important. There's

35:01

something so powerful about getting

35:05

people, the feeling of

35:07

getting people aligned, it feels so expensive

35:09

that the process of painting a picture

35:11

of what the future could look like.

35:15

And it can be really frustrating because people

35:17

disagree. They naturally disagree about what

35:19

the future could or should look like. And

35:22

then I think it was

35:24

very wise, it might also have

35:26

been self-congratulatory, but also

35:28

very wise to credit the

35:31

team's ability to follow the

35:33

Credo that they had just

35:35

themselves created as

35:39

giving that the credit for successfully navigating that

35:41

challenge. Because I do think that is one

35:44

of the moments where it

35:46

actually feels good to be in leadership. There's

35:49

this powerful, almost

35:51

like feeling, I'm trying to think, how do

35:53

I want to say this? You said earlier,

35:55

Kim, that you can't tell people what to do.

35:58

So you can't tell people, that

36:00

are important and you must think that these things

36:02

are important. You must follow these like and

36:05

so instead he drew out

36:07

like this process through this process drew out

36:09

the things that were really important and then

36:12

when crisis came people were able to follow

36:15

the right thing yeah to do to do the

36:17

right thing and that's a

36:19

rarefied experience you know very very rarely

36:21

do people get get to experience something

36:23

like that and I do think that

36:26

that that is

36:28

having those examples is something

36:31

that maybe the world needs more of maybe

36:34

there's a book of inspiring leadership stories

36:36

those moments of exaltation yeah and

36:38

sometimes it doesn't have to be even like

36:41

I remember there was one point where a woman

36:44

on my team had gone I think

36:47

she was ill so she was out for

36:49

several months and then she came back and

36:52

we were having a big debate about something

36:54

a big you know discussion and there was

36:56

a lot of disagreement but it was a

36:59

fun conversation and I remember at

37:01

the end of the conversation she was like oh I

37:03

miss this I'm so glad to be back and

37:06

that was like that that was fuel for

37:08

a year you know it's it's

37:10

just that feeling of oh I like working

37:13

with you and we're getting

37:15

somewhere that is

37:17

that is like that's really

37:19

joyful or when you work with someone

37:22

who who all

37:24

of a sudden is doing something

37:26

that they always wanted to do but thought they

37:28

never could do like

37:30

that is that is incredibly

37:33

satisfying for me like that's

37:36

the most satisfying thing that can happen

37:38

in a career and that's why I

37:40

liked being a manager Kim that

37:42

reminds me of a story in my career

37:45

when I was was managing someone and they

37:47

were new to the role and it come

37:49

from a more corporate background and so and

37:51

they were responsible for design and I kept

37:53

encouraging them to. you know you can be

37:55

more creative and showing them different examples but

37:57

I would keep getting back these more sort

37:59

of. Corporate. Stayed designs

38:01

and I guess trying to paint a picture of

38:03

what was possible on it is sort of. We're

38:06

going back and forth and then Kenneth a few

38:08

weeks. In all the sudden all this creativity came

38:10

out. And. It was. It was

38:12

that sense of like that unlocking. And yeah,

38:14

and sometimes you don't know what's that thing

38:16

that's gonna help unlock that other person and

38:18

some of it's patients. and some of it's

38:20

painting a picture in. some of it's just.

38:23

Demo. The sudden realizing that something

38:25

new was possible so a share with

38:28

you. I hadn't thought

38:30

of that in a while. Nice things just

38:32

to Jason's point. like it doesn't have to

38:34

be this huge stories of like we overcame.

38:36

You know, the Johnson Johnson Crisis Like that

38:38

those can be really powerful. but even in

38:41

some of our day to day moments, that

38:43

it does give you some of that energy

38:45

to keep to keep moving forward. And Sacks

38:47

maybe our listeners can write us what's that

38:49

moment of July and being a manager and

38:51

maybe will read some of these out. These

38:53

can be some of our favorite things I

38:55

would love to. Oh, I love that idea.

38:58

Yeah, I think we. Want to give up

39:00

being a manager? Little better Pr. And

39:02

yes and and around Aziz said

39:04

defining it. Yes, Six

39:06

are eight, so just to revisit

39:08

quickly are radical to enter checklist.

39:10

These are kids to start putting

39:12

radical candor into practice. Kept

39:15

number one. define the role, Teach

39:17

people what the job of management

39:19

is, what do they do and

39:21

provide the training and resources to

39:23

help them learn how to do

39:26

it better. Tip:

39:28

Number to create a buddy

39:30

or mentorship program so people

39:32

interested in people management's inexperience.

39:34

Some of the positive aspects

39:36

of building relationships, guiding teams

39:38

to achieve results, and helping

39:40

people take steps. In the

39:42

direction of their dreams. To

39:45

number three if you want to explore

39:47

this topic further. Listen to

39:49

Season Five episode twenty five, should

39:51

I be a manager and season

39:53

Six episode two Managers are burned

39:56

out to. To find out

39:58

more. To further tip. you

40:00

can go check out our YouTube channel where you

40:02

can not only listen to this podcast, but

40:04

also watch dozens of other Radical

40:07

Candor videos. Show

40:09

notes for this episode

40:11

are at radicalcandor.com/podcast, praise

40:14

in public and private, and of course,

40:17

you can go ahead and criticize in private.

40:19

So if you like what you hear, go

40:21

ahead, rate and review us wherever you listen

40:23

to your podcast. And if you have criticism

40:25

for us, or your

40:27

stories of manager joy, email

40:29

it to podcast

40:32

podcasts at radical

40:35

candor.com. Bye for

40:37

now. Bye everyone. Take care. The

40:39

Radical Candor podcast is based on

40:42

the book Radical Candor be a

40:44

kick-ass boss without losing your humanity

40:46

by Ken Scott. Episodes are

40:48

written and produced by Brandi Neal

40:50

with script editing by me, Amy

40:52

Sandler. The show features Radical Candor

40:54

co-founders Kim Scott and Jason Rozoff

40:56

and is hosted by me, still

40:59

Amy Sandler. Nick Karisame is

41:01

our audio engineer. The Radical

41:03

Candor podcast theme music was

41:05

composed by Cliff Goldmacher. Follow

41:08

us on LinkedIn, Radical

41:10

Candor the company and visit

41:12

us at radicalcandor.com.