0:00

Today, Radical Personal Finance, live Q&A. Welcome

0:02

to Radical Personal Finance,

0:05

a show dedicated to

0:07

providing you with the

0:10

knowledge, skills,

0:21

insights and encouragement you need to live a rich

0:23

and meaningful life now while building a plan for

0:25

financial freedom in 10 years or less. My name

0:27

is Joshua Sheets. Our host today is Friday, March

0:30

1, 2024, episode 999 of Radical Personal Finance. And

0:37

on this Friday, as

0:40

we do on every

0:42

Friday in which I

0:44

can arrange the equipment

0:46

to record, we do

0:48

live Q&A. This is your first

0:51

time here at Radical Personal Finance. Welcome.

0:54

I'm glad that you are here. I hope you can record

0:56

these live Q&A shows whenever possible. I love doing them. If

0:58

you would like to gain access to one of these Friday

1:00

Q&A shows, you can do it at patreon.com slash

1:03

radicalpersonalfinance.com/radicalpersonalfinance. If this

1:05

is not your first time here with

1:07

us, then as you know, we've been doing

1:09

this quite a while, 10 years, 999 episodes. But

1:13

if I haven't talked to you, then remember, I

1:15

would love to talk to you. I always love

1:17

it when new people join the Patreon, new people

1:19

call in, talk about interesting new topics, raise

1:21

questions. Remember, your questions can be

1:23

technical. They can be philosophical. You can talk about

1:26

anything that you want. The mics are open. The

1:28

calls are open. I don't screen them other than

1:30

just trying to keep the numbers down with an

1:32

appropriate or the slight paid filter so that I

1:34

don't have 57 callers each and

1:36

every day. But we begin today with Jeremy

1:38

in Montana. Jeremy, welcome to the show. How

1:40

can I serve you today, sir? Yeah,

1:43

I was curious if you think

1:46

that having an openness to talk

1:48

about money is important. I

1:50

was raised where money was like a really

1:52

taboo topic, even amongst my immediate family. And

1:55

I feel that it kind

1:58

of maybe stifled or... hindered

2:00

my development coming into adulthood.

2:03

And the reason I ask is I

2:05

was listening to your episode

2:08

with the private money and obviously

2:10

I don't want you to rehash that whole episode.

2:12

I thought it was well done but it just

2:14

caught me off guard at times

2:17

because I see value in

2:19

normalizing talking about finance and

2:22

money and investing and I

2:24

think that it's an opportunity to help friends

2:27

and family realize there can be a

2:30

better solution to their lives that you know

2:32

if they are living in poverty that that's

2:34

not something they have to forever be stuck

2:37

in and it just seems like I was

2:40

a little conflicted because I understand the liability

2:44

side the insurance side and even like

2:46

what you're talking about with pro athletes

2:48

and people not appreciating that it's

2:50

funny giving money and like

2:52

buying meals and stuff but I just thought

2:54

that maybe there's like a happy medium or

2:57

something that could be established between

2:59

those two. There's

3:01

definitely a tension in the end in

3:04

that podcast that you're defending in which

3:06

I defended the idea of being

3:08

quite circumspect and private about your money.

3:12

In the latter part of that episode I tried to work

3:15

through a little bit of that tension saying for

3:17

example that if you don't talk

3:19

about money you may be limiting your

3:21

impact you may be limiting your ability

3:23

to even encourage someone in the way

3:25

that you're describing. For example if

3:28

I always lie down about my wealth

3:30

and I just don't

3:32

ever I just you know let everyone assume

3:34

I'm totally broke and have no money no

3:36

assets etc then what if my

3:39

you know sharp young nephew

3:41

or niece doesn't come to

3:43

me and talk to me and I could guide

3:45

my nephews and nieces on a better path. How

3:47

do I work through that? How do I have

3:50

the kind of impact in my

3:52

community that I would like to have? And

3:55

it is a

3:57

balance and that balance will probably

3:59

change. in different contexts, it

4:02

will also probably be a balance that has

4:04

different levels. So I

4:06

would like people to, I think

4:08

each person should make an informed

4:10

decision based upon the potential

4:13

benefits and the potential risks of

4:15

anything that you say or anything that you do

4:18

and not forget about

4:21

those goals that you're describing. So

4:23

I can think of a couple levels or

4:26

a couple of filters through which we should pass

4:28

this. So the first filter would be, is the

4:31

person with whom I am speaking or

4:33

considering speaking about money, is this

4:35

person trustworthy? For, you

4:38

know, I have people in my life that are quite close

4:40

to me with whom

4:42

I would never speak about my finances

4:44

in any way, shape or form. Because

4:47

these are people who I know

4:50

tend to speak quite openly

4:53

about other people's secrets. So

4:56

if I'm engaging with somebody

4:58

who brings consistently private information

5:02

or personal information to me at

5:05

the least or gossip at the worst,

5:07

then I immediately put an entire, an

5:09

enormous red flag on that person. And

5:12

I say I will never reveal personal

5:14

or sensitive information to this person because

5:16

this person is untrustworthy. The

5:19

ability of a man or

5:21

woman to understand and

5:23

protect people's privacy, that is

5:26

a very important component.

5:29

And I would draw a distinction here

5:31

between secrecy and privacy.

5:35

And what I mean here is that I

5:37

don't want, for example, in my life, I

5:40

don't want to ever do anything that

5:43

would ever have to be a secret. I

5:45

don't want to keep any secrets. I want to

5:47

live a life that is without

5:50

secrets. But that's not to say that

5:52

I'm not going to do things that

5:54

are private. And so in the

5:56

intimacy of my relationship with my wife or

5:58

my relationship with a good friend, you

6:00

might speak about things that are private

6:03

but we would not want to speak

6:05

about things that are secret and there's

6:07

a balance there because sometimes money could

6:09

be simply private, sometimes money could be

6:11

secret and

6:13

that's another filter is that if you're

6:16

going to talk to somebody, you might

6:18

share in some safe context with people

6:20

who are circumspect, know how

6:22

to control their mouth, know how to protect

6:25

people's privacy, protect people's interest,

6:27

etc. You might share some

6:29

private details and there

6:31

may be appropriate areas

6:33

for that. So an example would be

6:35

as a financial advisor, I

6:37

frequently know quite a lot about

6:39

quite a lot of people's private

6:41

details of their lives. Many people

6:44

tell me truthfully about their

6:47

financial position and I have

6:49

a very privileged source

6:52

of information because I talk to people about

6:54

money. So I know far more

6:56

about not

6:59

everyone but I know an enormous amount

7:01

of personal private information of

7:04

just about anybody in my life. Many friends, many

7:06

acquaintances, etc. people come to me and talk to

7:08

me about things but I

7:11

am also extremely circumspect. I'm

7:14

extremely careful. I never ever

7:17

reveal other people's information. Even

7:19

on the show, I occasionally will

7:21

tell stories about friends or clients

7:23

but that's why I just never

7:25

use names. I try to use

7:27

only details that are necessary. I

7:29

speak in generalities, etc. because I

7:31

have a responsibility to protect people's

7:33

privacy. Now there is an interesting

7:36

line here that I've spoken about previously.

7:38

I don't have any legal ability

7:41

to maintain the confidentiality

7:43

of any information that somebody shares

7:45

with me. Years ago,

7:48

I did podcasts on this talking about

7:50

why it's actually dangerous to talk about

7:52

your finances with someone who is a

7:54

financial advisor. Let's say that a guy

7:56

is getting ready to commit some kind

7:58

of fraud or

8:01

getting ready to commit some questionable

8:04

shady dealing that would approach fraud.

8:06

Maybe it's not outright fraud but

8:08

maybe it would approach fraud. He's

8:11

preparing to hide money from his wife

8:13

in a divorce or hide money as

8:15

he signs a prenup or something like

8:17

that. Well, if

8:19

he talks to me as a financial advisor

8:21

about his money and he shares all these

8:24

details with me, I'll have all those details

8:26

and I'll put all those details into my

8:28

notes. Those notes will be

8:30

in case notes that are filed under his name. Everything

8:33

is there in the files. If

8:36

then an investigator is able to obtain

8:38

a subpoena or to be able to

8:40

subpoena me or obtain a warrant of

8:42

some kind, then all of the information

8:45

that the guy has disclosed to me

8:47

or to his accountant or to his

8:49

insurance agent or etc., all

8:51

of that can be subpoenaed and I can be

8:56

obligated to testify in court. All

8:58

of my client case notes and records etc.

9:01

can be disclosed in court. The

9:04

only person with whom he could

9:07

protect that personal information would be

9:09

a lawyer which is why

9:11

for people who have an intense need

9:13

for privacy in their lives for some

9:15

reason, I've recommended that they work with

9:17

someone who's like a lawyer CPA type

9:19

where they can actually offer

9:21

that legal attorney client confidentiality.

9:25

Now obviously, a lawyer can't

9:27

maintain information confidential, confidentially if

9:29

somebody is planning to

9:31

commit a crime but that

9:34

still matters. As

9:37

a person, I guess my point is

9:39

that I've developed the habit of just never ever

9:41

– I don't ever talk about people's personal details

9:43

with anybody. That's privacy.

9:47

It's not secrecy. There's nothing that I do

9:49

for example in a client conversation that I

9:51

would ever keep secret from my wife but

9:53

I never ever even tell my wife who

9:56

I talk to, who I work with, who

9:58

hires me etc. has no

10:00

clue whatsoever who among our friends and

10:02

family have been clients of mine, etc.,

10:05

because it's just simpler not to talk. So if

10:07

you know people who are trustworthy or you're

10:10

interacting with people who are trustworthy who give

10:12

you the expression of

10:14

confidentiality, you know that if I go to

10:17

this person and I talk about a

10:19

matter of the heart, can I respect, can I

10:21

trust that this person, if I've

10:24

told this person that I have feelings for

10:26

this woman over here that this family

10:28

member at the next family gathering is not

10:30

going to start ragging

10:33

on me in public and betraying my

10:35

trust, then that would be

10:37

an appropriate context to then talk

10:39

about more trustworthy things, talk

10:42

about money, etc. In

10:44

the context of things like family relationships,

10:47

close family relationships with,

10:49

say, parents and children, then I think

10:52

that it's very important to talk about

10:54

money and that privacy should not be

10:56

maintained in those circumstances. As long as

10:58

we're dealing with normal, healthy relationships.

11:02

And so here there's a balance. So for

11:04

example, I do not tell my children at

11:06

this point in time how much money I

11:08

control. I don't tell my children how much

11:11

money I earn because they

11:13

have no need to know those details.

11:15

But I do talk to them about money. I talk

11:18

to them about the principles of money, the

11:20

concepts of money, etc. Why don't

11:22

I talk to them about how much money I

11:24

myself have and control? Well,

11:27

it's because, number one, there's no need to know.

11:31

And more importantly, I don't want them

11:33

to gain some kind of false impression.

11:35

I don't want them to look down

11:37

on people who have more money than

11:39

I have or who have more money

11:41

than or who have less money than

11:43

I have. It's not necessary. Now fast

11:45

forward. Let's say that I'm working with

11:47

a mature son or a mature daughter.

11:49

Now I want them to have a sense

11:51

of our family finances. And so appropriate disclosure

11:53

might be to talk about how much we

11:55

spend. They may not need to know all

11:57

of the details of all of our investment

12:00

holdings, but as teenagers, I think

12:02

it's perfectly reasonable that my teenage children should understand

12:04

what our normal expenses are. They need to have

12:07

an expectation of what is the scale of life

12:09

cost, how much does it cost us to have

12:11

a roof over our heads, how much does it

12:13

cost us to have food on the table, how

12:15

much does it cost us to take a two-week

12:17

trip to Europe, what is the

12:19

scale of these things so that they can

12:22

be prepared for what they need to earn

12:24

and kind of what life costs. Now

12:26

fast forward, let's say that I'm 60 years

12:29

old and now I have a 35 or a 40-year-old

12:31

son and

12:34

I'm thinking about retirement. Well now I

12:36

definitely want to recruit my son

12:39

into my life to give me counsel,

12:41

give me insight and

12:44

start to look out over my finances. I

12:47

think that one thing that parents who

12:50

are older should do is bring

12:52

their children, trustworthy children into their

12:54

financial situation so that their children

12:56

can help them and understand where

12:58

they are. It's

13:00

very helpful for both parents and children

13:03

to understand where we're at in terms

13:05

of a financial position. I've

13:07

worked with many clients for example of parents

13:09

who are modestly wealthy

13:12

and in some cases the children are

13:14

very wealthy. If

13:16

the parent is modestly wealthy and is scrimping

13:18

and saving to try to pass along money

13:20

to the children, the children really want the

13:22

parent to know that listen, you don't need

13:24

to do that. I've got

13:26

plenty of money. I want to see you

13:28

enjoy and use up your money yourself and

13:31

then things can go the other way as well

13:33

is that if you have a parent who is

13:36

very wealthy and the children

13:38

are confident that the parents are very wealthy,

13:41

then it instills confidence into the children that no,

13:43

I don't need to set aside a large fund

13:45

to take care of my parents. They're all taken

13:47

care of etc. So I

13:50

do think that communicating about money in

13:53

these kinds of confidential situations

13:55

is a wise practice but

13:58

that there's always a way that we can communicate. about

14:00

things that is appropriate. One

14:04

different levels of wealth and there

14:06

are different types of things

14:09

that simply can be understood

14:11

without being said. So

14:14

for example, there's the classic meme of

14:16

some millionaire next door type who works

14:18

as a janitor and he drives a

14:20

$500 car or something like that. They

14:25

write stories about him at his death

14:27

because he's a one-off example. Wealthy

14:30

people don't drive $500 cars.

14:32

It doesn't happen. That's

14:35

not a proper expression. But you

14:37

can also see based upon how

14:39

someone manages his assets, the things

14:41

that he purchases, the ways that

14:43

he spends, etc., you can see

14:45

who is wealthy. It's very difficult

14:47

to hide wealth and generally wealthy

14:50

people don't

14:52

want to hide wealth. But

14:55

there are still benefits of not

14:57

disclosing everything. So I would

14:59

say certainly it's valuable to talk

15:01

about money and people should talk

15:03

about money. Talking about money among

15:05

friends and family is a

15:07

healthy thing. It's probably a better subject

15:10

of conversation because your friends will guide

15:12

you, will encourage you, etc. But you

15:14

don't have to talk about every dollar

15:16

and every dollar's location and everything that

15:19

you have purchased just

15:21

because you're talking about money. And

15:23

I would say a good metaphor that

15:25

we would use would be how

15:27

we talk about our most intimate

15:29

relationships. I can talk with you

15:32

quite a lot about my marriage

15:34

relationship with my wife and

15:37

I can do that in one way

15:39

in public. I can do

15:41

it another way in private in a

15:43

confidential situation and I can do that

15:46

without ever exposing any detail

15:48

that could potentially be harmful to

15:50

my wife or to me or

15:52

to our relationship. And that's what

15:54

I was talking about in terms of secrecy

15:56

versus privacy. The things

15:58

that might be injurious... to my

16:01

wife or to our relationship if I

16:03

disclosed something. Those things aren't secrets, but

16:05

they're definitely private. They're not things that

16:07

I would have embarrassed to be disclosed,

16:09

but they're things that don't need to

16:12

be disclosed and shouldn't be disclosed because

16:14

that keeps the confidence of relationship. So

16:16

you can speak broadly about money on

16:18

many different levels. You can make the

16:21

points that you want to make. You

16:23

can spend your money, et cetera, while

16:25

still also being circumspect and not necessarily

16:27

publishing your social security number on a

16:29

billboard. Yeah,

16:34

that makes sense. I guess

16:36

I've probably historically been maybe a

16:38

little bit more open trying

16:41

to create disciples of five,

16:44

so to speak, and probably would

16:47

be wise to take a step back on

16:49

some of those things. So

16:51

I appreciate your feedback. You

16:54

don't mind, do you have time for one more quick

16:56

question? Go ahead. Awesome.

16:59

So I just signed up for your

17:02

camp coming up in, I

17:04

guess, what, a month and a half or so? And

17:06

super excited about that. Just curious

17:09

if there's any ways or

17:11

things that you think people need

17:13

to prepare in advance

17:16

to get the most out of it. I

17:19

know you talked about the different tracks and whatnot.

17:21

Just curious if there's questions or specific

17:23

things that we should be coming and

17:25

being prepared for or just show up

17:27

and have fun. Absolutely, the camp is sold out

17:30

now. So rather than answering that in public, you

17:32

will receive, at the

17:34

beginning of next week, you will

17:36

receive some extensive communications from me,

17:39

survey, et cetera, and will

17:41

communicate about those things among

17:44

those who purchased tickets to the camp, rather than my using public

17:46

air time here for that, okay? All

17:49

right, sounds good, thank you. Have a great

17:51

weekend. My pleasure, good questions, Jeremy. And I

17:54

think, I guess the only other comment I wanted to say

17:56

that I think is important enough for me to say is

17:59

just that... But in general,

18:02

I don't know how old you are, but in

18:05

general, as I

18:07

get older, I increasingly learn not

18:09

to tell people about

18:12

my opinion about things

18:15

unless they ask me for it and in many

18:17

ways unless they pay me for it. So

18:20

it's hard because whenever

18:22

I get enthusiastic about something, I want to be

18:25

an evangelist for it. I want

18:27

to persuade others. So if I get super interested

18:29

in, you know, five financial independence and I want

18:31

to go and then I want to go and

18:34

recruit others. But in general,

18:36

most people aren't interested and the older

18:38

I get, I just

18:40

try. It's not always appropriate.

18:42

You do want to share your opinions. That's normal

18:44

human relationships. But in general, I'm

18:46

not that interested in telling people about my

18:48

ideas or my the things

18:50

that I want to persuade them of unless

18:52

they've asked because I know what that feels

18:55

like on the other side. And

18:57

so I want to drop enough hints

18:59

or breadcrumbs about things that are possible to stimulate

19:02

some ideas, but I'm not going to go on

19:04

and on and on. And so if I were

19:06

going to talk about financial independence, I

19:08

would say, you know, financial independence is very, very

19:10

accessible and it can actually be done pretty quickly

19:12

and there's some cool ways to do it. And

19:15

then if someone's interested, I would say you can

19:17

save a certain percentage of your income, you know,

19:20

in a certain amount of time, you can accomplish

19:22

it and by building a business or you can

19:24

here's what house hacking works to for super cool.

19:26

But friends who are doing it, those are all

19:29

ways of kind of generally bringing up topics and

19:31

a really healthy way to stimulate and help people

19:33

who might be interested in that information. But none

19:35

of that requires the disclosure of confidential personal information

19:38

of here's how much money I have and here's

19:40

how much money I'm saving and I'm going to

19:42

be financially independent on this date because those

19:45

kinds of things, what

19:47

good do they do? They're more likely to

19:49

inspire jealousy, frustrations, risks

19:52

to your family, risks to your wealth,

19:54

etc. So I don't need

19:56

to know any of that personal information for you

19:58

to talk about ideas effectively. Blake, in Georgia, Blake,

20:00

welcome to the show. How can I serve you

20:02

today? Hey, Joshua.

20:05

Thanks for having me. Long time, first time.

20:07

Welcome. So,

20:09

my first question, I have

20:11

some UTMA accounts for my kids. In

20:13

the previous Q&A, I heard you say

20:15

those are not the best accounts, and

20:18

I wanted to understand why and

20:21

what is better. And I saw

20:23

what the 529 is now with the new – I don't know

20:25

how new it is – the Roth conversion.

20:27

Is that the way to go, or am I –

20:29

is there something else I don't even know about? The

20:31

basic problem with UTMA accounts, Uniform

20:34

Transfer to Miners Act, or

20:36

UGMA accounts, Uniform Gifts

20:38

to Miners Act, is

20:40

simply when your child

20:43

becomes an adult, all

20:45

of the money that you have

20:48

transferred or gifted to the child

20:50

immediately becomes part of the –

20:52

comes under the child's control.

20:55

So, you can't exercise discretion

20:57

over the accounts. When

20:59

you put the money into that account, then you're

21:01

saying that at 18 years old, on

21:05

my child's birthday, my child

21:07

is going to control this

21:09

money regardless of whether or

21:11

not, you know, he or

21:13

she is going to school, whether – regardless

21:15

of whether he or she is addicted to

21:17

drugs, regardless of whether he or she needs

21:20

this money, regardless of if it should stay

21:22

invested. No, you're saying that

21:24

on my child's 18th birthday, he or

21:26

she legally controls this money. Now,

21:28

the rebuttal to this is ordinarily, but that's

21:30

only if he or she knows about it.

21:32

Okay, fair enough. Then you

21:35

don't tell him about it, and then he turns around

21:37

and sues you at 22 years old, and

21:39

now you have a legal obligation because the money is

21:41

his, but you haven't told him about it for the last

21:44

four years. Well, I can't confirm

21:46

for certain, because I've not reviewed those cases.

21:48

I think, going on memory, I think that

21:50

I have heard that there have been lawsuits

21:52

like that, and there's a

21:55

clear legal case for your child

21:57

to sue you. So, it's

21:59

not – that it's a bad thing, it's simply

22:01

that I would call it suboptimal, subpar. I wouldn't

22:03

cash out a UTMA account or try to make

22:06

any changes and you can't, just keep it there.

22:09

But I have not seen the circumstance

22:11

in which I have recommended that account.

22:14

I should come up with a case study as to

22:16

when I would recommend it but I haven't done that

22:19

homework but I've just not seen an example in which

22:21

I would recommend it. And I don't like the idea

22:23

of your

22:25

giving up control over money

22:27

for a very

22:30

modest tax benefit. Right.

22:35

You're talking about 529s or? UTMAs.

22:38

Okay. Well, that's why I never did a 529 because

22:40

I saw a very modest tax benefit that I didn't

22:42

think was worth the strings being tied to it. Agreed.

22:45

Agreed. And I have been

22:48

a very prominent promoter of that exact

22:50

same thing that for most people a

22:52

529 plan gives only a very modest

22:54

tax benefit and in many cases, it's

22:57

probably not worth the surrendering of the

22:59

control. So the same principle applies to

23:01

the UTMA account. Why not just keep

23:03

the money yourself, manage it yourself and

23:05

if you want to give your children

23:07

money, just give them money. Why

23:10

put it into an account that's segregated that has

23:12

to be there? And to ask the question

23:14

is to answer it, to say, well, there can be

23:16

circumstances in which this is appropriate.

23:18

You want to actually make, affect

23:20

that transfer. But in most

23:22

cases, you don't need a separate account for

23:24

you to set aside money for your child's

23:27

future. One

23:33

more question about a previous podcast. I've

23:35

heard you say a

23:37

while ago, basically along

23:39

the lines of you're responsible for the

23:41

way your children turn out or behave.

23:44

And that really helped me take more responsibility for

23:46

the things I didn't like about how

23:49

my children behaved. Do you remember by any chance where

23:51

I could find that again? No idea. No

23:54

idea. I have right now, it's, it got

23:56

delayed for a few weeks. Check

23:58

back in a few weeks. And ideally,

24:00

you will be able to have a searchable

24:02

archive of all the previous podcasts as they're

24:04

all transcribed, and you can search them. And

24:07

you may be able to find that. But

24:09

I don't even know what search terms you would use to find

24:11

that. So

24:14

I would just say you gained the benefit from

24:16

the principle, and that's

24:18

all you need. And so it's one

24:20

of those things that clearly we acknowledge

24:22

that at the end of the day,

24:24

our children are human beings. They're

24:27

separate entities. They're separate persons.

24:30

And they're born as persons. And

24:33

there's, of course, the endless debate

24:35

about nature versus nurture, et cetera.

24:38

All of us have seen what we perceive

24:40

to be good parents who've had catastrophic results.

24:42

And all of us have seen what we

24:44

perceive to be horrific parents whose children have

24:47

turned out really well. So our

24:49

children ultimately have agency. But at the end of

24:51

the day, as parents, even if

24:53

it's only a metaphorical truth that I spoke

24:55

about recently in response to a

24:57

term that a listener introduced me to, even

25:00

if it's only a metaphorical truth,

25:02

it's something that we should live

25:04

by. And I think that every

25:06

time I review the nature versus

25:08

nurture stuff, I become pretty persuaded

25:10

that the argument that it's

25:12

all nature is pretty silly,

25:15

and that the environment in

25:17

which a child is raised, how his

25:19

or her parents interact with a

25:21

child, et cetera, it

25:24

really does guide a child and

25:26

set a child forward on a path. Awesome.

25:31

Thank you. My pleasure. We move

25:34

on to Adam in Washington.

25:36

Welcome, Adam. How can I serve you today?

25:40

Hello, Joshua. It's a pleasure to be

25:42

able to call in. And first,

25:44

thank you for all of

25:46

the content over the years,

25:48

I mean, the introduction of different ideas. Investing

25:52

in your children, money is a renewable

25:55

resource. So lots of really fascinating ideas.

25:57

Thank you. My pleasure. Thank you. Yeah,

26:01

so a question I have for you today is

26:03

around homeschooling. And so that's one of

26:05

the things that I never really thought much about until

26:07

you started talking about it or not started talking about

26:09

it until I started listening to you talk about it.

26:12

And the question I have particularly is

26:15

around business education. And so

26:17

I'm curious if you found any interesting

26:19

resources for teaching kids, both

26:21

kind of at an industry level

26:23

and at a function level, sales,

26:26

marketing, human resources, growth, strategy, and

26:28

then also some exposure to different industries

26:30

if you've seen that done at all

26:33

in the homeschooling world. As I look at it,

26:35

I'm having a hard time finding anything that even comes

26:38

close to that. And I'm wondering if you've kind of

26:40

got a deeper understanding.

26:43

There are people, many people who

26:45

are promoting this kind of experience,

26:48

this kind of education. I

26:50

have a couple years ago,

26:52

I signed up for, I bought

26:55

somebody's information product called I think Kidpreneur, but

26:57

I never dug into their program. I just

26:59

signed up for it and paid for it

27:01

and then kind of took a quick glance

27:03

and meant to come back and I haven't

27:06

gotten around to getting back to it yet. But

27:08

they had something built around

27:11

that. A few years ago, I signed

27:13

up for, what's his

27:16

name? Sorry,

27:19

Caleb Maddox's Apex

27:21

Kids thing. I

27:25

tried to use some of his things

27:27

with my children. And that's more overall

27:29

personal development for kids kind of approach.

27:33

That didn't really take with my particular

27:35

children and so I let that go. I

27:37

have a number of

27:39

books on the topic. So

27:42

I have a book called How to Turn

27:44

$100 Into a Million Dollars and

27:46

it's been in the library. I haven't required the reading

27:48

of it, but my 10-year-old has read it a couple

27:50

of times, enjoys it and I think it's a good

27:53

opening to it. I know

27:56

that there are people who are trying to build

27:59

this kind of approach. and

28:01

I intend to introduce

28:03

more of these ideas as

28:07

I get into the teenage world. So I have a

28:10

plan in terms of my own curriculum

28:14

that I have that I am building

28:16

for my children. I have a plan

28:18

to introduce more of these contexts as

28:20

a at

28:24

a later time. So there is

28:26

a course that is on my

28:28

plan from the Ron Paul curriculum

28:30

where they teach Business

28:32

1 and Business 2 as part of the Ron

28:34

Paul curriculum, kind of a home schooling curriculum. The

28:37

author of that course

28:42

in the Ron Paul curriculum, I can't remember

28:45

his name off the top of my head,

28:47

forgive me, but he also has a website

28:49

that he is building teaching business skills to

28:51

teens, taking them through the

28:53

process. That's another resource that is on

28:56

my planned list that I haven't reviewed

28:58

personally yet. But on

29:00

the whole, I am

29:02

skeptical of the idea of

29:04

quote-unquote teaching business for two

29:06

reasons. Number one, I

29:10

am skeptical of making

29:12

the concept of education

29:14

practical. And what I mean is I

29:18

have complained just like a lot of other

29:20

people have complained. Why do we

29:23

have to learn all this stuff that we never use in

29:25

life? Why are we taking algebra? I never do. You never

29:27

do algebra in real life. Why are we taking chemistry? We

29:29

never do chemistry in real life. Why don't

29:31

they teach normal, like useful stuff in school? Why don't

29:33

they teach you how to do your taxes in school?

29:36

That's a very common refrain. And if you

29:38

go to any social media thread and you

29:40

post something or find something about like what

29:42

should children study in school, you'll

29:44

find that a lot of people feel this way about

29:47

their education. Like why wasn't it

29:50

more practical? I have the

29:52

opposite regret. I pursued a very

29:54

practical education. I got a degree in business

29:57

and I now look back and I just think that was a

29:59

waste of four years. years. Why did I waste

30:01

four years of my life studying business

30:03

when I could have studied something actually

30:05

interesting? Why if I could have studied

30:07

philosophy or humanities or history or something

30:09

that would actually be interesting to me?

30:12

And I know how silly that

30:14

sounds, but the reason is that

30:16

I think we need to get

30:18

past the idea of

30:20

education being a functional commodity

30:23

and we should embrace education

30:25

as an opportunity for truly

30:28

creating free human beings. I'm

30:30

a proponent of a liberal education and the

30:32

goal of a liberal education is to liberate people.

30:35

And I consider it, I would

30:38

consider it a very sad person

30:40

who has

30:44

gone through years of schooling and has

30:46

only come out the other side with

30:49

the ability to do business. Now you're not saying this,

30:51

I'm just kind of trying to set out a basic

30:54

framework that business is one component

30:56

of life and it's an important

30:59

component, but it is not the purpose

31:01

of an education. And I reject

31:03

pretty strongly now that the idea

31:06

of school subjects or the curriculum

31:08

that we choose should be primarily practical

31:11

in nature. I think that

31:13

our goal with education is to

31:16

spread a delectable buffet, a

31:18

delectable feast in front of our children

31:21

from an enormous diverse array

31:23

of options and then allow

31:25

them to choose among those

31:28

options and be exposed

31:30

to this broad general experience of

31:32

life so that they can create

31:34

and chart their own path. The

31:37

second objection that I have is to

31:39

think that somehow business is something that

31:41

is difficult to learn or

31:44

difficult to teach. I

31:46

don't think that you would need much more

31:48

than six months or

31:50

a year of a business curriculum

31:53

to know just about everything you need to know

31:55

to get started. It's very different,

31:58

learning the skills of business. is

32:01

very different than say learning to be

32:03

a skillful writer or learning

32:05

to be skilled at mathematics. There's

32:07

just an enormous learning

32:10

curve with the first with writing

32:12

and mathematics that doesn't exist in

32:14

business. And academic

32:16

knowledge related to business is not

32:19

an effective way of building business

32:21

skills beyond the basic

32:23

fundamentals. And so

32:25

I think that a better way

32:27

to approach the concept of business

32:29

education rather than from a general

32:32

perspective should be to give specific

32:34

skills that could be leveraged into

32:36

a specific job or a specific

32:39

career. So here are a couple

32:41

of examples from my list. One

32:44

of the things, one of the opportunities that I

32:46

think is well, the

32:49

basic skill of business is the skill of

32:51

sales. So anytime we can

32:53

find something related to sales, then

32:55

I want to encourage that. But

32:58

sales skills are hard to teach academically

33:00

and they're better taught when there's an

33:02

opportunity to sell. And so

33:05

that's something that I want to

33:07

look for opportunities to teach for

33:10

a young person to sell and encourage

33:12

them to sell so that they can

33:14

start to acquire those

33:16

skills. But I'm not going to start

33:18

going through five books on selling if

33:20

there's no context for it. Another,

33:23

however, there are skills that I

33:25

think could relate to things

33:27

like selling, but also relate to a specific

33:29

career. So when my

33:32

students are in their teenage years,

33:34

I intend to require

33:37

an enormous amount of writing

33:39

from them, writing and

33:41

speaking. I believe that the most

33:43

important literacies for students

33:45

to be really skilled at are

33:48

the active literacies of public

33:51

speaking or speaking in general,

33:53

both in a private context and

33:55

in a public context, and

33:57

also in writing, the ability to write.

34:00

write is fundamental. And so I plan

34:03

to introduce things like, let's do

34:05

a copywriting course. And let's practice

34:07

copywriting. It's a very useful form

34:10

of writing. It is writing,

34:12

so it's perfectly functional in

34:14

terms of a component of an English curriculum.

34:17

Yet it is something where you

34:19

can genuinely build a phenomenal career

34:22

as an independent copywriter. It's a

34:24

career that a child can do from any

34:26

corner of the world and make tens of

34:29

thousands of dollars per year, nay hundreds of

34:31

thousands of dollars per year, even

34:33

as a teenager. And it's also

34:35

something that is enormously useful in

34:40

one's own personal business, if

34:42

someone has his own personal

34:44

business. And so

34:46

that, to me, is one of those

34:49

really foundational things. And I'm much more

34:51

excited about a child going through a

34:53

copywriting course than I am about some

34:55

general business education. The second

34:58

example I would use is something

35:00

like accounting or bookkeeping. Although

35:03

this market is changing right now,

35:06

and I don't know where we'll be three or four years

35:08

from now, but it

35:11

is very doable for a

35:13

teenager to not

35:15

only learn about bookkeeping and

35:18

accounting, but also to become

35:20

credentialed and certified, either as

35:22

a bookkeeper or as an

35:24

accountant, and build an independent

35:27

business in

35:30

the teenage years that allows

35:32

a teen to earn adult wages, but

35:34

in a teenage context. And

35:36

yet, that's a fundamental business skill.

35:39

You are starting to understand financial

35:41

statements, understanding the basic functioning of

35:43

taxes of, again,

35:46

financial statements are the most important thing. But

35:49

that can be leveraged both to create

35:51

income now, but then also as a

35:53

general component of business education. So

35:55

I'm pretty excited about this idea of

35:58

saying, what are some basic skills? learn

36:00

the business skills, but in the context of

36:02

the meta skills, the meta skills that can

36:04

be applied in various businesses. And

36:06

I think with an encouraging environment, say yeah,

36:08

try that, go ahead and do that. And

36:11

don't force a child to stick with something

36:13

for a very long time, but encourage them

36:15

to try something, I think that's a good

36:18

way of gaining expertise. And then finally, I

36:21

have the personal MBA reading list, both

36:23

the actual book written by Josh Kaufman

36:25

as well as the reading list. I

36:27

have that scheduled as part of kind

36:30

of overall exposure to business concepts.

36:32

Well, I acknowledge that reading 100

36:34

books on business is

36:37

pretty large, but I think that in

36:39

general, if someone reads 10 or 15

36:42

or 20 books on business, especially if

36:44

they're books that are being studied in

36:47

specific application to a business, then

36:49

I think that's an abundantly

36:51

useful business education. So

36:54

those are my ideas, probably

36:57

less well stated than I would

36:59

like, but those are my ideas on a

37:01

business education, that it's important, but I don't

37:03

think it's more important than academic subjects. I

37:05

think that business is one of the easier

37:07

things to learn and that it should be

37:09

a modest component of, certainly

37:11

a very modest component of the

37:14

younger years. And then as

37:16

we move to the teenage years, it

37:18

should be a component, but not an

37:20

overwhelming component because the major goal of

37:22

education is not strictly practical, but

37:24

rather, it is an important

37:26

component. And what we wanna do is

37:29

help our children and fit them for

37:31

a couple of careers. And

37:33

one of the reasons, in conclusion, one of the reasons

37:35

I'm very passionate about homeschooling is I

37:37

think that it's the best context for both of

37:39

these things together. So my basic

37:41

mental model for a really

37:44

good teenage homeschool curriculum is

37:46

that an academic curriculum

37:49

is imposed upon the student

37:52

during his or her teenage years

37:56

to the tune of about three to four hours

37:58

a day of work. So ideally, students. starts at

38:00

eight and is done at noon. And I think with

38:02

three to four hours of focused work a day, you

38:05

can produce top tier academics in a

38:07

homeschooling context because of the efficiency of

38:09

time use as well as the efficiency

38:11

of education because you don't have to

38:14

be held back by classroom movements, but

38:16

the student can always be right at

38:18

his frontier of learning where learning is

38:20

efficient. Then the student

38:23

should be encouraged from noon to

38:25

night and also we can eliminate homework,

38:27

we can eliminate all the rest of the stuff. The student

38:29

should be encouraged from noon to night to

38:31

develop his or her own businesses,

38:34

his or her own expressions

38:37

of business. And

38:39

those things can be learned in the context of a

38:41

job, a business,

38:43

a skill that's being developed and that

38:45

that's the best way to learn those

38:48

skills. And then I see

38:50

myself not as providing a

38:52

formal academic curriculum to teach you the skills

38:54

of business, but rather mentoring and coaching through

38:57

the real experiences of being in

38:59

business. Yeah,

39:02

that makes sense. And I guess the lessons I

39:04

was thinking about through more was the world of

39:06

stories. Like one of the things that you mentioned

39:08

a few months ago I think was

39:10

reading your kids the biography of Marie

39:13

Currie as a way to introduce them to

39:15

this whole world of books

39:17

as like the ultimate instructor

39:19

or like the best tutor in the world.

39:22

And I guess one of the ideas that you

39:24

put out there earlier than that was around

39:27

spending money to learn things related to your

39:29

industry and give yourself kind of a personal

39:31

education budget. So I've been spending a whole

39:33

bunch of money on Harvard Business School case

39:35

studies and related to the industry that I

39:37

work in. And I found that it's been

39:39

some of the best money I've ever spent

39:42

kind of going through these different stories and

39:44

kind of seeing it through

39:46

that lens. So I appreciate your answer. For

39:51

someone who has a high interest in business,

39:53

we wanna encourage that. I

39:55

don't wanna be recently trying

39:59

to keep these comments short. We want to

40:01

encourage business, but I'm nervous about an

40:03

exclusive focus on business I

40:06

would not want to graduate an 18

40:08

year old who is only

40:10

skilled with business But

40:12

is not well informed about other

40:16

Important components of what it means to be

40:18

highly educated. I also don't want to

40:20

graduate an 18 year old who? Exclusively

40:22

has academic knowledge and academic

40:25

skills and doesn't have any

40:27

experience applying Learning

40:29

to the world and doesn't have any context

40:31

of business doesn't have any sense of how

40:34

to make money in the world So I want

40:36

to shoot right up the middle I

40:38

don't want to sacrifice either of those things

40:40

and I definitely do want to encourage business

40:42

knowledge And I think that your expression of

40:45

Harvard Business Review case studies

40:47

is really great There's a whole lot of

40:49

other skills that need to be applied Excuse

40:55

me So

40:59

things like gaining access to people I think

41:01

one of the high school projects That

41:04

we want to teach high schoolers is

41:06

we want to make sure that they are systematically

41:10

building the skills of gaining access to

41:12

important people and We want

41:14

to figure out a reason for them to

41:16

gain access to important people which is probably

41:18

going to involve Some kind of sales skills

41:20

some kind of advocacy for for something and

41:22

etc and so all of these

41:24

I see are related to business and That

41:28

they will serve a child well

41:30

who then wants to pursue business

41:32

in an entrepreneurial way Yeah,

41:36

that makes sense and it's about two other kind

41:38

of quicker ones if that's okay You

41:41

mentioned in the in the investing

41:43

in your children's bodies. I thought that whole series was

41:46

great by the way The

41:48

focus on balance and something I've

41:50

got three kids under five years old

41:53

and my five-year-old and three-year-old are really

41:55

interested in gymnastics Which

41:57

Is like quickly becoming a huge time investment.

42:00

They get better and better at it. They. Get

42:02

invited to spend more and more time doing it.

42:04

I wonder if you like if your kids have expressed

42:06

an interest the matter be dabbled with that at all.

42:09

I. Need a man named in the spirit of that. Investing

42:11

in balance, Funny waiting. investing your kids by

42:13

from displayed standpoint and the other one just

42:15

to put it out there. An image

42:18

and answer them together. Now be done on

42:20

you had mentioned at some point that you

42:22

are you have he spat in yourself recording

42:24

English Spanish translations and you're considering releasing it

42:27

as honorary. Been an update on. That can

42:29

be something I'd love to listen to as

42:31

I had nothing to dabble in that world

42:33

of learning other language that you know the

42:36

to the. Subject of the

42:38

books. As ambition of mine

42:40

and my ambitions are far beyond my capacity,

42:42

deliver them in a timely manner and it's

42:44

enormous point of frustration that I myself I'm

42:47

fixing. Because these things

42:49

need to exists I just him working on

42:51

expanding my team to make it happen and

42:54

I find the same limits that we all

42:56

do but to do date work and better

42:58

and make progress on that with regard to

43:00

the physical stuff. It's it. I

43:03

was just quite literally before recording this

43:05

podcast I was just talking my wife

43:07

about this, not just share specifically what

43:09

we're talking about. I'm almost finished with

43:12

his book called Rains by David Epstein

43:14

and I've been reading. This book is

43:16

a rebuttal to some of my other

43:19

readings. I read a book called Peak

43:21

by Anders Ericsson and a book called

43:23

Talent is Overrated by Jeff Calm and

43:26

both excellent books, especially Talent is Overrated.

43:28

Colvin, I think would advocate does advocate

43:30

for a highly specialized. Form

43:32

of. Of trainings that

43:35

we if we want to produce say

43:37

that you know someone's interested in gymnastics,

43:39

that if we want our child or

43:41

be a world class gymnast than we

43:43

should. sign up for the gymnastics

43:45

and we should be there for hours a

43:47

day with can put i think we would

43:50

think if i say a soviet style gymnastics

43:52

training program i think that would resonate with

43:54

with the soviets often did they would find

43:56

a student who a young child who displayed

43:59

some basic problem They would take the child

44:01

away from his or her parents, put them

44:03

under a coach, and all the

44:06

child's life would be gymnastics or boxing or hockey

44:08

or whatever it happened to be, and to

44:12

this very intense level of development. So

44:14

David Epstein's book, Range, is very

44:17

much a rebuttal to that, basically

44:19

saying that it's not

44:21

the only way that people learn is

44:24

to just do one thing all the time and only

44:26

do that well. And I'm

44:28

pretty nervous about what I think could be

44:31

called the tiger mom idea, that you have

44:34

a mom who comes along and says, my

44:36

child is going to be great at this,

44:39

and push, push, push, push, push. I don't

44:41

see that as appropriate parenting. I see that

44:43

as more harmful than helpful, even though it

44:45

may result in somebody developing genius level skills

44:47

in an environment. And the

44:49

conversation that I had with my wife just today was

44:52

a good approach to this

44:54

is seasonality. And I think

44:56

that's one thing that is often missing. In,

44:59

I assume it's still this way, when I was

45:01

in high school, we had sports, we had basically

45:04

fall sports and spring sports. And I think this

45:06

is still the case. So you have your football

45:08

season, you have your basketball season, you have your

45:10

baseball season, you have your swimming season. And

45:13

an athlete could do multiple sports.

45:16

And I think there's abundant evidence to

45:18

say that that's probably a good thing

45:20

and not a bad thing. Because

45:23

right now where you see this is

45:25

parents, you know, they push their child

45:27

into little league and then they push their

45:29

child under a travel team. And it's like you

45:31

got a dad or a mom who's just trying

45:33

to fulfill his own dreams with his child. And

45:35

yes, the child may be good at baseball and

45:37

ultimately is burned out by 18 and never wants

45:39

to see a baseball again. I don't see that

45:41

as a proper frame. So

45:44

I think seasonality is an answer

45:46

is to say, hey, we're really into gymnastics.

45:48

Great, let's do it. Let's do it for

45:50

three months and let's be really into gymnastics

45:53

for three months and then let's quit it

45:55

And let's go do rock climbing.! And Rock climbing is

45:58

going to be our thing for three months. And

46:00

then after that is gonna be baseball. This

46:02

do baseball and we want to expose our

46:04

children to diverse level of things and then

46:07

listen to them. And if they really really

46:09

really want to go back to fanatics? Great!

46:11

Let's go back to gymnastics but we can

46:13

guide appropriately. Who want to think about those

46:15

say six skills. Every sports going to have

46:18

a different set of skills. Every sports. Guinness

46:20

cultivate something unique but not let it take

46:22

over your life to where you're spending hours

46:24

and hours every week doing. You can do

46:26

that for three months. So. Call

46:29

it a season and say for this season we're going

46:31

to do gymnastics. then what would you guys like to

46:33

do next? And let's take a break. Let's have an

46:35

off season and then let's think about what we're going

46:37

do in the fall and spring. I think that's a

46:39

good way of approaching him. Often

46:43

Peggy of my pleasure or right norms number of

46:45

call us will go a little faster. Preston in

46:47

Arizona Welcome to the showing Msrp today. Hey

46:51

joshua! For

46:53

see, take the time, Start with sex. My question.

46:56

Is. Kind of based on. I'm

46:58

generally on what's inappropriate. Ah

47:01

Minotaur. best in a single investment. And

47:04

more specifically, and your own

47:06

company stock. So. For

47:08

some context have about.

47:12

Three. Hundred thousand dollars worth of company stock. You

47:20

drop in on me Three thousand dollars a

47:22

company stock? Go! Had. A

47:25

guy on a little thought, maybe a little bit

47:27

more. Seventy thousand the best over the next few

47:29

years. And there's an opportunity to

47:31

buy more. Today I have the expectation that

47:33

the stock is gonna perform. A

47:35

very very well over the next few years. Ahmadis

47:37

gonna want to keep in mind and. You

47:40

know, maybe some some ideas that you have on. On

47:43

on what's an of amount

47:45

of allocation for one best

47:47

and particularly company stock. Is

47:52

hard question because I could present few different

47:54

models that I have learned in heard but

47:56

the end of the day I think it's

47:58

gonna be a got told by you. Because.

48:02

If. Your company stop performs well and

48:04

you know you feel like any

48:06

believe that it's gonna perform well

48:08

then you're gonna wanna be invested

48:10

in heavily. So in hindsight, let's

48:12

look back. Imagine that you are

48:14

an early engineer at Facebook or

48:16

and early engineer at Tesla and

48:18

you're being paid and company stock

48:20

And imagine you're talking to your

48:22

financial advisor in your financial advisor

48:25

saying to you while you really

48:27

should be prudent and after all

48:29

we have enormous amount of isolated

48:31

risk between your. Employment and your company.

48:33

And after all you had known public company stocks

48:35

of money. Go ahead and put it all into

48:37

the next month. Will fast forward ten years. You're

48:39

not very happy with that advice or you. Know.

48:45

Okay so now we can say the flipside.

48:47

Let's say that you have all your company

48:49

in stock and and of what what bankruptcy

48:51

to refer to as seems kind of dumb

48:53

to talk about world Com or Enron at

48:55

that with the moment, but those were kind

48:57

of classic examples that he ate your your

48:59

your it's a perfect early employ et cetera.

49:01

Will now you'll be be would appreciate that

49:03

diversifications. So at the end of the day

49:05

every man is gonna have a different. A

49:08

gut feeling, a different decision and be

49:10

willing to take a different amount of

49:12

risk on his beliefs and then you're

49:15

going to have consider your phase of

49:17

life and to say can I afford

49:19

to take this risk So let's just

49:21

the I can't give you a perfect

49:23

answer because of knowledgeable, smart people would

49:25

give you a variety of models. I'm

49:27

going to give you some filters to

49:29

pass it through instead. I think that's

49:32

the most useful number one. Think.

49:34

about on a recent you and i

49:36

went through kind of elaborate discussion around

49:38

bitcoin go back and listen to the

49:40

most recent fried acumen a were a

49:42

listener called said i should i sell

49:44

my real estate moved bitcoin and i

49:47

gave an elaborate discussion of how you

49:49

would decide whether to do that and

49:51

how to do that it and whatnot

49:53

i think a lot of that that

49:55

applies to your situation so since that's

49:57

already there let me go to a

49:59

few more things Number one,

50:01

think about your stage in life. There's

50:03

a big difference between being very young

50:06

and wanting and really needing

50:09

to make big wins versus

50:11

being very old and not needing

50:14

to make big wins but wanting

50:16

to avoid big losses. And

50:18

so it makes all the sense in the world to me

50:21

for a younger man who is at

50:23

a company that's giving him company stock

50:26

and he believes in the company, makes

50:28

all the sense in the world to

50:30

me for him to keep it in

50:32

company stock even though there's an intense

50:34

concentration of risk because it may

50:37

turn out to be a great long-term

50:39

move for him if he believes in the

50:41

company as you do with yours that I

50:44

think it's gonna perform well. On

50:46

the other hand, there's a great deal

50:48

of risk to the guy who is

50:50

older in his career to have an

50:53

extreme concentration in his company stock especially

50:55

that if he loses his job and he

50:57

loses his stock value at the same time

51:00

then it's a double whammy. So

51:02

you wanna think about the phase of life. You wanna think

51:04

about the alternative use of the dollar. So

51:06

if you sell the stock, what are you gonna do

51:08

with the money? And then go through that way of

51:10

thinking that I described in the Bitcoin course.

51:13

Okay, if I sell the stock, am I gonna

51:15

put it in the index fund? Well now I

51:17

know I'm not gonna get much wins but at

51:19

least I'm not gonna get much losses ideally as

51:22

compared to the current scenario. And then

51:25

just simply go with the

51:27

scenario that feels best for you. And

51:30

while you're doing that, make a plan to say,

51:33

here's how I would know if things

51:35

are gonna change. So here's how I would know if

51:38

I'm going to go

51:41

ahead and sell my company stock. I would get married and

51:43

wanna buy a house. Well this would be the money that

51:46

I would use to buy a house and if I could

51:48

pay cash for a house, that would be fantastic because imagine

51:50

starting your life as a young man with a debt free

51:52

house, that would be well worth

51:54

it. That would be a smart move. Or

51:57

if I didn't start feeling

51:59

confident. The company I'm gonna start

52:01

suing stock, but that's also my sign

52:04

that I'm going to look for a

52:06

job. I think this kind of subjective

52:08

discussion, even though it's not specific, is

52:10

the best way that you're going to

52:13

come to arriving at what you personally

52:15

think and believe. And I think it's

52:17

a better answer then. Only

52:20

Putin present your net wealth at any one

52:22

thing, etc. You need to ask yourself, where

52:24

am I in my wealth building journey? Am

52:26

I looking for a big when? Is this

52:29

company a big win? Is there a better

52:31

uses a dollar and not just play the

52:33

conservative angle If you don't need to play

52:36

the conservative angle, but if you do need

52:38

to be conservative, then go ahead and start

52:40

being conservative. Scattered,

52:45

that's help. appreciate your thoughts. Thank

52:47

you. I don't have a mathematical

52:49

model to offered to you, but.

52:52

I. Do have. My

52:55

own personal regret of not.

52:58

Being. More aggressive and.

53:01

There are some who. There.

53:04

Are some who have regrets from

53:06

being aggressive and so yourself. For

53:08

example, you might have your salary

53:11

and then the a company stock

53:13

that you receive his party or

53:15

compensation package. You might not take

53:17

your entire salary and go and

53:19

buy more company stock, but so

53:21

you might choose your diversification that

53:23

way. But in general. If.

53:26

You believe in the future the company and

53:28

you'd have no other information that would say

53:30

that you're wrong. I think you're gonna wanna

53:32

bet on yourself and bet on the company.

53:35

And have the confidence that

53:37

comes with trusting yourself versus

53:39

trying to take you know some

53:42

external person's. Framework

53:44

to say when we never own individual

53:46

stocks as too much concentration of risk,

53:48

etc I think it it. You'll feel

53:50

better betting on yourself than the other

53:52

way. Andrew in Mexico City Welcome Andrew

53:55

Huck Msrp today. I.

53:58

Give up the new just where they keep your time Today. I

54:00

had a question on behalf of my

54:02

wife and I. We recent years, we've

54:05

recently created a remarkable living trust. In

54:08

order to have a say in our lives for could

54:10

be drawn down. In. These event

54:12

tomorrow passing. A percentage

54:14

would remain with our family, pay for education,

54:16

health care expenses. We have that pretty nail

54:18

down. On our primary play,

54:20

I'm assuming that we live long and healthy

54:22

lives is to eventually donate a majority of

54:25

it to charity. Or charitable

54:27

causes during our lifetimes. Were.

54:29

In our mid thirties Right now are

54:31

we have time to identify those organizations

54:33

closer to our sixties and seventies? What?

54:36

I'm having trouble with is how to

54:38

identify high quality organizations. And

54:40

make a significant difference in the communities in which

54:42

they operate. And. Have a high likelihood of

54:44

continuing to do so in the future. We.

54:47

Need to get these written down and

54:49

cases are early. Passing. And we

54:51

don't get the to suspend or donate the

54:53

money before or during our retirement years. How

54:56

would you go about identifying these organizations in

54:58

a way that doesn't involve a. google.

55:00

Searches don't tell him to time. I

55:02

guess I'm just looking for kind of

55:04

a are ineffective Were going about this

55:06

install. Some of the options and the

55:09

pressure at the moment is that you

55:11

need to states in your new trust

55:13

documents. you need to state specific organizations.

55:15

That right. Correct

55:17

that that pages currently blank. Are

55:19

we created this trust about a

55:21

year ago and we've had many

55:23

discussions Is just kind of feel

55:25

like we're stalled out the moments

55:27

and just need to see a

55:29

fresh wave of how to name

55:31

these particular organizations. Yes, Do you

55:33

have any personal experience with volunteering

55:35

for an organization, your mother, working

55:37

for an organization, etc. You're just

55:40

an organization you've been around. Ah

55:43

yes, we're both on the board of

55:46

directors for a small non profit based

55:48

in Minnesota. That. Dies involved

55:50

in high school education. I'm

55:52

so we do have experience was operating

55:54

nonprofits, you know. How

55:57

they operate actually operating and I'm

55:59

finding affected. Where you're spending money

56:01

on tight budgets, its etc, how would

56:03

you feel if you do simply. Chose.

56:06

The organization that you currently are involved in,

56:08

just to fill it in for now, recognizes

56:11

you have time to come back in the

56:13

future. With that, solve your problem. That

56:16

that is at the top of our list. I

56:19

think that that the budget of that

56:21

organization is. Probably. Smaller than

56:24

what we'd be leaving behind. So.

56:26

We're trying to find some other other

56:28

organizations as well and does. This particular

56:30

organization does have a bit of but.

56:33

A cap in me. In

56:35

the impact that we can make in

56:37

terms of quantity of students. Are

56:40

we've reached that? So I think that

56:42

some anything over and above there wouldn't

56:44

be as good abuses of the fans.

56:48

You are hitting on a

56:50

subject a question that is

56:52

one of my most. Pressing

56:55

interests and passions. I.

57:00

Him. Pretty. Obsessed at the

57:02

moment with this exact question that

57:04

you're talking about. how do we

57:06

identify effective ways of causing change

57:09

in the world and so that

57:11

we can support them? It is

57:13

an enormous passion of mine, and

57:16

it's something that I desire very

57:18

strongly in the coming. Months.

57:20

And years to try to figure

57:22

out about. All I know right

57:24

now is I'm pretty dissatisfied with

57:26

virtually all of the advice that

57:28

I hear anybody giving and of

57:30

dissatisfied with his vice that I

57:32

myself can give. I don't know

57:35

the answers to it so let

57:37

me just tell you a few

57:39

of models bit too to talk

57:41

about. So good. Starting point: Very

57:43

number publications that rate charities. Charity

57:45

Navigator I think is probably the

57:47

most prominent one. So I would

57:49

begin their ah, Charity. Navigator and

57:51

organization that is focused on. identifying

57:54

the basic functioning of various

57:56

not for profit organizations and

57:58

identify their metrics, what percentage

58:00

of how what's their income,

58:03

what's the compensation of their employees,

58:05

their boards, etc. What percentage of

58:07

their efforts

58:09

go to project

58:11

work versus administration, etc.

58:14

And I have no reason to think that they do

58:16

a bad job or are in any

58:19

way untrustworthy. And

58:21

so I would encourage you to start there. And

58:24

I would basically say to you just pick a

58:26

couple of topics or

58:29

interests that are

58:31

from an organization like Charity Navigator

58:33

for now just to fill it in because

58:35

that's where you

58:38

start. Now my questions are

58:41

bigger because I question a lot of

58:43

the basic fundamental

58:46

assumptions that people have. And I'll give

58:48

one example that is like the the

58:50

Pallada example. I forget the guy's first

58:52

name but years ago when

58:54

I was doing my evidence of a

58:57

designation called a Chartered Advisor in Philanthropy,

59:01

CAP designation. And

59:03

it was a series of classes and courses that I went through.

59:05

It was one of my more interesting ones that I did because

59:08

we did it. I

59:10

was the financial advisor and we had basically

59:12

a cohort of like 20 people.

59:15

And there were about three or four

59:17

of us from financial services. There were

59:19

about three or four lawyers in the

59:21

cohort. There were about three or four

59:24

executive directors of not-for-profit organizations. There

59:26

were I forget the other things

59:28

but basically this interesting cohort of

59:31

interdisciplinary people and we all did the

59:33

classes together. And we read an

59:35

essay by a guy named Pallada. I think Dan

59:37

Pallada or something like that. And it

59:40

was quite controversial at the time. This is

59:42

more than a decade ago but or not

59:44

yeah more than a decade ago. It

59:46

was very popular because Pallada was

59:48

making the case that one

59:51

of the worst metrics to look

59:53

at is the metric that most

59:55

people start with which is what

59:57

percentage of an organization's budget goes

59:59

to organizations? overhead versus

1:00:03

actual impact. And Pilates

1:00:05

argument was that while people say, oh,

1:00:07

a well-run charity is one that has

1:00:09

a very thin overhead and puts most

1:00:11

of its money into project work, et

1:00:14

cetera, that that's nonsense. That the best

1:00:16

run, the well-run charity is one that

1:00:18

makes the biggest impact on the desired,

1:00:20

you know, focus on

1:00:22

the desired area rather than overhead.

1:00:25

What's better, to have an organization,

1:00:27

for example, that has a 10%

1:00:29

overhead budget and contributes 90% to

1:00:33

the project but has a total budget of, say, $100

1:00:36

million so that $90

1:00:38

million is going to the project work or

1:00:40

an organization that has a 30% overhead but 70% goes

1:00:46

to project work but has

1:00:48

a budget amount of, say, a billion dollars.

1:00:51

Well, obviously, $700 million is a much bigger

1:00:53

impact than,

1:00:56

say, $90 million to the actual

1:00:58

cause. And so if you had

1:01:00

to increase the overhead of the

1:01:03

organization from 10% to 30%, but at the end of the day, you

1:01:07

could increase the impact from $90 million to

1:01:09

$700 million, then

1:01:13

wouldn't that be a much better move? And the

1:01:15

point has stuck with me since then. Now, it's

1:01:17

been debated. There were a lot of people that

1:01:20

disagreed with that. But this is an example that

1:01:22

has always stood by me because prior to coming

1:01:24

into that essay, I would have firmly

1:01:27

cited on that, well, the

1:01:29

mark of a good organization is one that spends

1:01:31

the least amount on overhead

1:01:34

and the mark of a

1:01:36

bad organization is one that has

1:01:38

a high overhead ratio where a lot of people working

1:01:40

for it or making too much money and things like

1:01:42

that. I now don't believe that.

1:01:45

So we want to look for impact. The

1:01:47

problem is how do you judge impact if

1:01:49

you're not intimately familiar with the industry? And

1:01:52

I don't think you can be intimately

1:01:54

familiar by perusing any

1:01:57

marketing brochures or even

1:02:02

charity navigator, how can

1:02:06

you get that level of familiarity? You have to

1:02:08

go to something where you actually know, something that

1:02:10

you're actually going to be involved in. So

1:02:12

on the whole, the long-term answer that I

1:02:14

would love to give to you is to

1:02:16

say you and your wife choose an

1:02:19

issue or a couple of

1:02:21

issues that are really important

1:02:24

to you and then

1:02:26

dedicate a significant portion of

1:02:29

your time and your resources

1:02:31

towards investigating those particular

1:02:33

issues. And

1:02:35

so you say we really want to

1:02:38

make a change in education. I think

1:02:40

you mentioned the organization you're involved in

1:02:42

is involved in education. Okay, what's the

1:02:44

change? And really be as knowledgeable in

1:02:46

that space as possible. And

1:02:48

in the process of becoming knowledgeable

1:02:50

about that space, then you'll be

1:02:52

aware of the organizations that

1:02:55

need your help, the organizations that are

1:02:57

doing things, and you'll be aware of

1:03:00

the impact of those organizations. And those

1:03:02

things are all impossible to find from

1:03:04

a public perspective, but they're pretty

1:03:06

easy to find when you start

1:03:08

building relationships and contacts in that

1:03:11

industry. I find this in any

1:03:13

new industry is that from the outsider's perspective, all

1:03:15

I have is marketing literature. But once I start

1:03:17

meeting some people and the microphones are off and

1:03:19

the cameras are off and they'll just quietly say,

1:03:21

well, this company over here, they don't do anything.

1:03:24

And these guys are the scammers. And I can't

1:03:26

say that publicly, but these guys are the scammers

1:03:28

and these guys are the good guys. And the

1:03:30

same thing I think is happening in

1:03:34

charitable organizations. And then the other comment I would

1:03:37

make is you need to question the

1:03:39

entire premise of is a not-for-profit

1:03:41

organization actually the way that you're

1:03:43

going to accomplish your goals? That's

1:03:46

something that I think is too often

1:03:48

accepted as given. Excuse

1:03:54

me. It's too often accepted

1:03:57

as a given that a not-for-profit is

1:03:59

a superior your option but

1:04:01

is not something that should be accepted. And

1:04:03

so you may want to in the fullness

1:04:05

of time as you get closer to the

1:04:08

actual disbursements, you may want to regularly

1:04:11

revisit this and sometimes you may want

1:04:13

to put individuals on there. You may

1:04:15

want to put companies that are even

1:04:17

for-profit companies and then include also not-for-profits

1:04:19

in it. So short answer, charity navigator,

1:04:21

longer answer, choose one area of interest

1:04:23

or two areas of interest and make

1:04:25

that the research project that you and

1:04:28

your wife are involved in.

1:04:30

And if you have one area of interest

1:04:32

and you go to four or five galas

1:04:35

for the organization or some fundraisers, donate

1:04:37

a small amount of money, get on

1:04:39

the mailing list, get involved, etc., then

1:04:41

over the next three, five, ten years,

1:04:44

you'll, as you pay attention, you'll get

1:04:46

a much better sense of who's actually doing

1:04:49

well, who's making an impact in

1:04:52

the field that you care about. Wonderful.

1:04:56

Thank you. My

1:04:58

pleasure. We move on to Shell

1:05:00

Doll in Minnesota. Welcome, Shell Doll.

1:05:03

Hi, Joshua.

1:05:08

Say, I am, I

1:05:10

wanted to get your thoughts on a framework on

1:05:12

valuing a business. I'm

1:05:15

attempting to help a couple of brothers. They

1:05:19

own a bar in kind of in small

1:05:22

town, middle America. They

1:05:24

inherited it from their parents. And

1:05:26

so everything's free of any debt. It

1:05:29

includes the land, building, and

1:05:32

the business. The older

1:05:34

brother spends five to ten hours a week doing

1:05:36

some bookkeeping, inventory, that kind of stuff, and he

1:05:38

takes a small salary for that. Other

1:05:41

than that, they're basically receiving,

1:05:44

since they own the land and the

1:05:46

building, they're basically renting those facilities

1:05:49

to the business and paying themselves

1:05:51

rent checks. So

1:05:53

that, along with distributions, you know, they're getting

1:05:55

about $80,000 a year in

1:05:59

profit or debt. cash flow from the

1:06:01

business. Basically

1:06:05

one wants to buy the other out and

1:06:08

have his son kind of run the

1:06:10

business. The younger brother's

1:06:12

not necessarily

1:06:15

ready to sell but feeling

1:06:18

like just to keep things cordial

1:06:22

in the family or whatever, they're

1:06:24

considering it. The hard part is

1:06:27

since the younger brother doesn't necessarily want to

1:06:29

sell, he likes getting his

1:06:31

$40,000 a year in income, the

1:06:34

two of them still have to come to a price

1:06:36

for the business to

1:06:40

buy the other person out. I'm wondering

1:06:43

what you have for setting up a framework,

1:06:45

what you think we should be looking at, what kind

1:06:47

of questions we should ask as we work through

1:06:49

this. Are you in the middle representing both of them

1:06:51

or do you have one party on your organization?

1:06:53

I'm basically friends with both. I'm trying to help

1:06:58

bring conversation among

1:07:06

them and try to keep things friendly

1:07:09

as we talk through it. We've talked

1:07:12

about bringing in their accountants

1:07:15

that's worked with them for a number of years with

1:07:17

the business to go through some annual reports

1:07:20

and put together some histories and

1:07:22

stuff like that. I'm not legally

1:07:27

representing either of them at this point. I

1:07:31

think there are at least

1:07:33

three different valuations that could

1:07:36

be applied to just about any business and

1:07:39

I think probably more but let's start

1:07:42

with three. The

1:07:44

first valuation is the easiest.

1:07:46

It's going to be some form of

1:07:49

industry standard. Every

1:07:51

different industry is going to have some

1:07:53

kind of generally accepted industry standard. There's

1:07:55

somebody who is a broker of bars

1:07:59

in your region. that you can reach out to and

1:08:01

contact. And that would be the first person I would look

1:08:03

for is find a

1:08:05

business broker, find a business website,

1:08:08

find a broker who has

1:08:11

worked with these kinds of businesses and

1:08:14

then just get some insight, what do these things

1:08:17

sell for? And figure out

1:08:19

how it's calculated, what

1:08:21

the pre-multiple numbers are, what

1:08:23

the multiple is, et cetera.

1:08:26

Work through that list and you'll get

1:08:29

some sense of

1:08:31

the industry valuation. The

1:08:34

problem is that that's not really the most

1:08:37

impactful thing. So

1:08:39

the second form of valuation is, well, what would I need

1:08:41

to do to replace this? So

1:08:44

if I'm a part-time

1:08:46

owner of a business like this

1:08:49

and I'm making $40,000 a year with

1:08:52

a very modest amount of work, maybe even no

1:08:54

work or just a few hours here and there

1:08:56

to make sure things are being run honestly, that's

1:08:59

a pretty significant thing to replace.

1:09:02

$40,000 of income is quite a lot. So

1:09:06

putting that, let's use the 4% rule as an

1:09:09

example. If I needed to replace that $40,000

1:09:11

a year with

1:09:13

mutual funds and I'm using the 4%

1:09:15

rule of drawing money on mutual funds,

1:09:17

I need about a million dollars in mutual funds. That's

1:09:20

a lot. And so I would

1:09:22

be pretty surprised if a brother was

1:09:24

ready to, if one is ready

1:09:26

to offer the other a million dollars on this kind

1:09:29

of business. And yet, if this

1:09:31

guy wants to replace this $40,000 that

1:09:34

he's getting, he kind of needs a million dollars.

1:09:36

You see the logic? Yeah,

1:09:39

yep, that's what I kind of

1:09:42

think about the different options or different ways of looking

1:09:44

at it. Like, okay, there's challenges.

1:09:46

Right, and so he's got a pretty good

1:09:48

deal. Now we

1:09:50

could argue left, right and center that, well, obviously

1:09:52

you're a lot safer with a million dollars in

1:09:54

mutual funds than you are with one little bar

1:09:56

in the middle of nowhere. But at the

1:09:59

end of the day, I'm not thinking

1:10:01

about that. I'm thinking about the fact that, hey, I've

1:10:04

done this business for a while. People's

1:10:06

drinking habits are unlikely to change very

1:10:08

frequently, especially in the Midwest. There's

1:10:11

not going to be a big change. We own

1:10:13

everything outright. There's not really any risk. I got

1:10:15

40 grand. How am I going to replace that?

1:10:18

So you can do this valuation with real estate.

1:10:20

He may go out and say, well, if I'm

1:10:22

going to take the money that he's going to

1:10:24

pay me, then

1:10:27

how many houses do I need to buy to replace

1:10:29

my $40,000 a year free and clear? And

1:10:33

that's going to be the most compelling valuation

1:10:36

because the same question, let's say that a guy calls

1:10:38

me and says, should I sell this investment and buy

1:10:40

a different one? Well, the answer is what are you

1:10:42

going to replace it with? And

1:10:44

virtually all of the things

1:10:46

that he could

1:10:48

replace it with to get $40,000 of income, all

1:10:55

the things that he could replace it with are probably going to

1:10:58

be on the level

1:11:00

of, again, that million dollars. So that's the

1:11:02

second level of valuation. And

1:11:04

then the problem is then you have

1:11:06

a third level of valuation, which is what is

1:11:09

it going to take for me to feel secure? Or

1:11:12

what is it going to take for me to be

1:11:14

confident that this was the right move? So

1:11:16

in this discussion with two owners and one

1:11:18

owner wants to pass it along to the

1:11:21

sun and kind of get them involved, then

1:11:23

if I'm the guy who's being asked

1:11:25

to sell, I'm going to be thinking

1:11:27

about what are the growth prospects here?

1:11:37

What if we can grow this thing

1:11:39

and now my share can turn not from 40

1:11:41

but into 75? How

1:11:44

do I get better than that? And so

1:11:46

there's the walk away number. And the walk

1:11:48

away number is usually the highest. And

1:11:52

so I think I've ordered these numbers in what

1:11:54

I think would usually be the three numbers. Number

1:11:57

one is going to be, and we

1:11:59

can. I'll argue about the order a little bit, but

1:12:01

usually the industry average is gonna be the lowest. Then

1:12:05

the how do I replace this is gonna

1:12:07

be significantly higher, and then in

1:12:09

many cases the walk away number of here's what it

1:12:11

takes for me to walk away happily today is

1:12:14

gonna be the real number that we're

1:12:16

gonna get to, but that's often gonna be

1:12:18

the highest, because it's not tied to

1:12:20

any specific outcome. It's

1:12:24

just a number that feels good. Okay, that's definitely enough

1:12:26

money. You can be ridiculous about it.

1:12:28

Somebody walked in here and offered us $5

1:12:30

million for this bar we'd sell today, obviously.

1:12:33

Well, no one's gonna do that, so

1:12:35

we're coming down from it, but what

1:12:37

that actual walk away number is is

1:12:40

gonna vary. So the pathway that I

1:12:42

would see that might

1:12:45

result in some kind of successful negotiation

1:12:48

is gonna be less about the

1:12:50

valuation of the business and

1:12:52

more about the settling of the life

1:12:54

path. Why would somebody want

1:12:56

to sell in the first place? For

1:12:59

example, I might be getting older, I might not

1:13:01

wanna come in to do the work, et cetera.

1:13:03

All right, well, you wanna sell. What do you

1:13:06

need from it? Well, I need income, and so

1:13:08

maybe we can have a higher buyout

1:13:10

number, but we can deliver it in the

1:13:13

form of income payments that are gonna come

1:13:15

in for 15 years or 10 years, because

1:13:17

that's a way of satisfying both

1:13:19

of those things, that I'm getting a higher number, but

1:13:21

the number instead of being paid out up front is

1:13:24

being paid out of the profits of the business. I

1:13:26

don't know what all the other alternatives are, because

1:13:29

I don't know their situation, but I would try

1:13:31

that track to understand

1:13:34

why they would want to sell, and the

1:13:36

person who wants to buy out his brother,

1:13:38

he's gonna need to build a case that

1:13:40

would cause the seller to want to sell,

1:13:43

and that's gonna involve the number. It's

1:13:45

gonna have to be high enough to make it better,

1:13:48

and it's also gonna probably need

1:13:50

to involve some alternative pathway,

1:13:53

because most people are not

1:13:55

investors, especially most business owners,

1:13:58

and so they've got comfort and experience. with

1:14:00

the bar, you can't just

1:14:02

build that same confidence in with, hey, here's a

1:14:04

mutual fund or here's a piece of real estate.

1:14:06

It's a different market. So I don't know that

1:14:08

I'm giving you any insight, but there

1:14:11

is no one number. There

1:14:13

are at least those three numbers. Okay.

1:14:18

Now that at least gives us a starting point. Any

1:14:23

successful negotiation is

1:14:25

going to have to be win-win. And so the

1:14:27

person who wants to convince his brother to sell

1:14:30

has to sit down and say, what does

1:14:32

my brother want? What does he actually want?

1:14:35

And in order for the brother

1:14:38

to sell without causing harm to

1:14:41

the family relationships, the

1:14:49

brother has to be persuaded

1:14:51

without coercion that selling

1:14:53

is better than keeping and that

1:14:56

he's better off selling than keeping.

1:14:59

And that often requires some

1:15:01

creativity. So I would ask myself, if I

1:15:03

had a son, unless I'm trying to convince

1:15:05

my brother to sell me half of a

1:15:07

business, then I might do

1:15:09

something like say, let's

1:15:13

set the baseline of what our

1:15:15

business has been. And

1:15:17

maybe we sell over a period

1:15:19

of time as my son

1:15:22

is able to increase the profits of the

1:15:24

business. And if

1:15:29

he can increase profits by 50%, then

1:15:33

not only will we make some money because we brought

1:15:35

him in, but now here's a vesting schedule and we're

1:15:37

going to sell out 5% of the business to him

1:15:39

per year as

1:15:42

he's able to increase the profits. Or I

1:15:44

don't know, some kind of creative solution. But you

1:15:46

got to begin with what's going to cause the

1:15:48

selling brother to be happier

1:15:54

after having sold than he

1:15:56

was when he had it. And that's the

1:15:58

only way of navigating. creating this without bringing

1:16:01

harm to the family relationships. It has

1:16:03

to be a genuine deal where both

1:16:05

people are better off. Okay.

1:16:07

All right. Thank

1:16:09

you. Yeah, hard question. I

1:16:12

don't know if there's a solution, but that's where I

1:16:14

would begin to work on one. Joe

1:16:16

Selius in North Carolina, welcome to the show. How can

1:16:19

I serve you today? Hi, this is Jose Luis. Jose Luis, there

1:16:21

we go. I don't know why. I looked

1:16:23

at your name and it said, Joe. I'm not sure. I'm

1:16:25

not sure. I should have seen

1:16:27

Jose Luis. Sorry about that. That's funny.

1:16:29

It's very common actually. Now you know

1:16:31

your fake name to use whenever you

1:16:34

want to convince people of it. Jose

1:16:41

Elias. Yes. Oh,

1:16:43

I've heard that before many times. Go ahead, Tom.

1:16:46

So this question is about homeschooling

1:16:48

and behavior. For most

1:16:50

of the time, our homeschooling goes smoothly.

1:16:54

Sometimes our son, who is

1:16:56

almost eight and a half, he delays and

1:16:59

complains and that ruins the mood

1:17:01

and brings pretty much the

1:17:03

day. So I remember that

1:17:05

in a past episode, you mentioned that I

1:17:08

think it was your oldest son that maybe

1:17:10

initially had some behavior

1:17:12

issues related to homeschooling and you had

1:17:14

to step in. So I would like

1:17:16

to know if you have some strategies that you can share that

1:17:19

worked that maybe you still use. Specifically,

1:17:21

I would like to know if you actually use deadlines.

1:17:24

Like do you have to do this math by certain

1:17:26

time and before you move on? And if

1:17:28

you don't do this, what happens? Sure.

1:17:30

Anyway, about behavior and compliance. Yeah.

1:17:35

So let's begin. And it's totally appreciated. Thank

1:17:37

you. Absolutely. Let's begin with acknowledging a

1:17:39

couple of the facts that you just shared. You have an eight-year-old and you

1:17:41

have a boy. So one

1:17:44

of the reasons that I myself homeschool,

1:17:46

and I especially would want to homeschool

1:17:48

an eight-year-old boy, is

1:17:50

quite simply that school, generally

1:17:53

speaking, is a toxic environment

1:17:56

for boys. It's

1:17:58

a toxic environment. because all

1:18:01

of the things that make a school

1:18:03

run smoothly are

1:18:06

unnatural for boys. Sitting

1:18:09

still in a chair to focus on a

1:18:11

piece of paper and keep

1:18:13

your pencil moving for long periods of

1:18:15

time to show deference

1:18:17

and respect to the teacher

1:18:19

standing in front of the class and to do

1:18:22

that for hours and hours every day, frequently

1:18:24

with quite boring subject matter

1:18:26

that kills the mind, this

1:18:29

is not something that boys generally do well in.

1:18:32

And I think this is one of many

1:18:34

reasons why boys are

1:18:37

consistently falling behind. Girls

1:18:40

thrive in that environment. And what

1:18:42

has happened in the school system

1:18:45

is that the entire structure of

1:18:47

the industrial school system has

1:18:49

been reoriented for the success

1:18:51

of girls and for the

1:18:54

failure of boys. You have

1:18:56

primarily female teachers who

1:18:58

create a very feminine environment and

1:19:01

it's an environment that works beautifully

1:19:03

for the strengths of girls and

1:19:05

it's an environment that works almost

1:19:08

exactly the opposite of the strengths for

1:19:10

boys. And so one of

1:19:12

the reasons I have home school is I don't

1:19:14

want my young boys to be

1:19:17

in that toxic environment where

1:19:19

they're going to wind up

1:19:21

facing nonstop disciplinary actions. They're

1:19:24

going to wind up facing nonstop feeling

1:19:27

like they're always the problem just because they want

1:19:29

to move while they read and they want to

1:19:31

bounce up and down and yell, etc. And

1:19:35

worse, they might wind up drugged and

1:19:37

diagnosed with some wacky condition and drug.

1:19:40

It's entirely toxic for boys. And

1:19:43

I would encourage you to think seriously

1:19:45

about it because what you don't want to do in

1:19:47

a home school environment is take

1:19:49

the toxicity of the industrial school

1:19:51

system and then insert

1:19:53

that into your home

1:19:56

environment. And that's what

1:19:58

I think many people do. And so I'm

1:20:01

trying to be picturesque to point out

1:20:04

the problem. This is one of the

1:20:06

reasons that's very important to me as

1:20:08

to why I went to

1:20:10

homeschool, especially in the younger years.

1:20:12

Now, all these things can be

1:20:14

worked out, but it's

1:20:16

astonishing to me how

1:20:20

beautifully well my 8-year-old

1:20:23

daughter adapts

1:20:25

herself to long school days

1:20:29

as compared to her 10 and her

1:20:31

6-year-old brothers who are

1:20:33

completely different. And

1:20:35

we need to be aware of that

1:20:38

because in homeschooling environment, we do not

1:20:40

need to try to force an industrial

1:20:43

system onto a child before

1:20:45

the child is ready. And at 8, a

1:20:48

child is probably just barely ready.

1:20:51

Now, I'm not saying I

1:20:53

myself, I'm not an unschooling advocate, nor

1:20:56

am I a wild and free advocate.

1:20:58

I think there's a balance. But

1:21:00

we should begin with the fact that

1:21:03

we're looking to help and set our

1:21:05

students up for success, not

1:21:07

for failure. So my goal is

1:21:09

not to create an environment that's going to lead

1:21:11

to failure, but rather create an environment that's going

1:21:14

to lead to success and is

1:21:16

going to lead to increasing levels

1:21:18

of skill over time. And

1:21:20

I really want to protect the

1:21:22

ego of a young

1:21:24

child, and I want him to feel like

1:21:27

he can win. I want

1:21:29

him to feel like he can

1:21:31

succeed, especially in the early years,

1:21:33

because psychologically, if he views

1:21:35

himself as defective or inferior in

1:21:37

some way, that has very

1:21:40

damaging long-term results.

1:21:43

So with an 8-year-old, I think you should

1:21:45

begin at the level of your curriculum. Is

1:21:48

your curriculum something that

1:21:52

works well not only for boys in general,

1:21:55

and 8-year-old boys in particular, but is it

1:21:57

something that's going to be a little bit

1:21:59

more effective? to work well for

1:22:01

your particular eight-year-old boy. And

1:22:05

I'm speaking broadly. You have to figure out

1:22:07

how to apply this stuff, but this isn't

1:22:09

very big deal to me. One

1:22:12

of the complaints, be

1:22:14

careful, because I'm not complaining, but I'm

1:22:16

not attracted, for example, to

1:22:18

most worksheet-based curricula. I

1:22:21

don't think that they're useful. I don't

1:22:23

think they're helpful. They don't inspire the

1:22:25

mind. They don't engage with the mind.

1:22:27

And so look at your curricula and

1:22:29

ask yourself, I'm an eight-year-old boy. Is

1:22:31

this curriculum that we're going through, is

1:22:33

this something that's going to engage with

1:22:35

me? Is this something that's going to

1:22:37

inspire me to want to learn? Because

1:22:39

we don't want learning to taste like

1:22:41

eating sawdust. We want learning to be as

1:22:44

appetizing as possible, especially in the

1:22:46

early years. Because our

1:22:48

most important goal in

1:22:50

the young years of education should not be

1:22:53

to try

1:22:55

to maintain, to try to stick

1:22:57

to some external schedule. There is

1:22:59

no schedule anywhere in

1:23:01

the United States of what any

1:23:03

particular child is

1:23:06

always capable of doing. Different people have

1:23:08

different ideas on curriculum and et cetera,

1:23:10

but it's all made up. There's no

1:23:13

national standard. There's generally no state-level standard.

1:23:15

In the younger years, you have complete

1:23:17

and total freedom to do anything that

1:23:20

you want. All

1:23:22

you're basically trying to do is give

1:23:24

basic skills and inspire a love

1:23:27

of learning. Those are the goals. And

1:23:29

I want to do both of them. And if I

1:23:31

have to err, I want to err on the side

1:23:33

of inspiring the mind and inspiring a love of learning,

1:23:35

rather than even the basic skills. Because the

1:23:37

basic skills can come very easily when

1:23:40

the student is ready for it. But

1:23:42

if we destroy the love of learning

1:23:44

with an oppressive environment, then that's not

1:23:46

so great. So

1:23:49

look at the curriculum. And then look

1:23:51

at what the child is attracted to

1:23:53

and say, can I emphasize

1:23:55

these things? And do

1:23:57

I have to do these other things? So I'll give an

1:23:59

example. few examples from my own

1:24:01

experience. Number one, ask

1:24:04

yourself is this thing

1:24:06

that we're going to do even necessary?

1:24:08

So things like spelling, you know spelling

1:24:10

worksheets. These are a common component of

1:24:13

elementary school curricula. I

1:24:15

don't know if they're necessary or not but

1:24:17

so far right now as one homeschooling dad

1:24:20

I've just tossed them out. I don't see

1:24:22

any point. My answer is, my

1:24:25

guess is that let's just put in

1:24:27

a few more thousands of pages of

1:24:29

reading and probably the

1:24:31

spelling will mostly fix itself and it

1:24:33

really doesn't matter right now. So let's

1:24:35

just set that aside because here's this

1:24:38

thing that's dreadfully dull, dreadfully

1:24:40

like uninteresting. Let's just toss

1:24:42

spelling aside and let's just

1:24:44

focus on more reading. And

1:24:47

then, no, is that true or

1:24:49

not? I don't know but if I have a child

1:24:51

who's fighting a spelling worksheet maybe it doesn't need to

1:24:53

be done right now. Here's another example. Is

1:24:56

there a way that we can start that we can

1:24:58

keep making progress but

1:25:00

progress on a level that's

1:25:02

appropriate? So my eldest child, now 10, he

1:25:04

was horrific at writing. Writing,

1:25:11

which is considered to be kind of a

1:25:13

standard thing that elementary school students are supposed

1:25:15

to be, he had an

1:25:17

enormous pencil allergy and I think that

1:25:19

most young boys have an enormous pencil

1:25:21

allergy and it would go through worksheets

1:25:24

and workbooks of let's practice letter formation

1:25:26

and whatnot and none of it worked.

1:25:28

It was like pulling teeth and

1:25:30

so when I and it was we're gonna

1:25:32

have to impose discipline. We have to say you have

1:25:35

to finish this. You have to write it and a

1:25:37

boy will find every excuse to sit and dawdle for

1:25:39

hours over this thing that he doesn't like to do.

1:25:42

And so I tried to understand what is actually

1:25:44

happening. What's going on here? So first of all,

1:25:46

when you're dealing with very young children, just toss

1:25:48

the whole thing out for three months and if

1:25:51

you're struggling with something, whatever it is, just come

1:25:53

back in three months. Try it again. If it

1:25:55

doesn't work in three months, we'll try it in

1:25:57

another three months. Again, you're under no external obligation.

1:26:00

to be on any particular schedule.

1:26:03

And so I tossed the writing curriculum, I said, we're

1:26:05

not doing that. And so a year

1:26:08

ago, I had a nine-year-old child

1:26:11

who is reading at a college level

1:26:14

and can't write at a first-grade level.

1:26:17

But to me, that's not a problem

1:26:19

because one of the reasons I homeschool

1:26:21

is so that we don't have to

1:26:23

fit a standardized, median approach,

1:26:25

but rather, so we can

1:26:27

help each student to advance

1:26:29

right at the frontier of

1:26:31

learning as an

1:26:34

appropriate way. So what I

1:26:36

mean is that only in an industrial

1:26:38

school system do you need to be writing

1:26:41

on a fifth-grade level and reading

1:26:43

on a fifth-grade level and doing math on a

1:26:45

fifth-grade level and whatever the other skills are. In

1:26:47

homeschooling, you don't need to do that. You can

1:26:49

be reading on a college level and

1:26:52

writing at a first-grade level, and

1:26:54

as long as you are aware of the deficiencies

1:26:56

and aware of what you're working towards, then no

1:26:58

problem, we'll work towards it, and over the coming

1:27:00

months, we'll make progress. The

1:27:02

goal is not to stay behind forever,

1:27:05

but we want to be careful and

1:27:08

not try to feel like we're on

1:27:10

someone else's imposed schedule.

1:27:13

So with the

1:27:15

writing, what I did, how I dealt with that, was

1:27:17

number one, as I tried to see, is there any evidence

1:27:20

that my child has a learning disability,

1:27:23

some expression of dysgraphia or

1:27:25

et cetera. I couldn't detect

1:27:28

any evidence of anything fundamentally wrong. I just

1:27:30

figured, I've got a boy here who doesn't

1:27:32

like to write. No problem. I can deal

1:27:34

with that. I scrapped writing, and

1:27:36

I brought in art, because

1:27:38

one of the reasons that young

1:27:41

children don't like to write is because it literally hurts. Their

1:27:43

hands hurt from holding pencils and things. So

1:27:46

I brought in art, and I said, let's just do lots of

1:27:49

art. What are we doing with art? Well, it's fun. The

1:27:51

children enjoy drawing, but we're building up

1:27:53

those pencil skills. It's the same basic

1:27:55

function of motor control and building up

1:27:57

the strength in the... in

1:28:00

the hands

1:28:04

as is writing words, but we're just approaching

1:28:06

it in a different way. So

1:28:08

we did that and we did that for

1:28:10

several months and then I figured out that

1:28:13

in order to write effectively what we want

1:28:15

to do is we want to

1:28:17

pull apart the act of

1:28:19

writing from the act of composing.

1:28:21

So being a skilled writer is

1:28:23

two basic skills. It involves

1:28:26

the skill of taking abstract thoughts

1:28:29

and turning them into words and

1:28:31

secondly, it involves the

1:28:33

skill of putting words down on paper

1:28:36

in the artificial manner that is writing,

1:28:38

which is not like the way that

1:28:41

we speak and doing proper punctuation, spacing,

1:28:44

etc. And I mean, if we went back

1:28:46

a year and a half, a year and a year ago and I

1:28:48

showed you my son's writing papers,

1:28:50

it was terrible. We could form the letters,

1:28:52

but no spacing, no sense of spacing, no

1:28:54

sense of scale, etc. None

1:29:01

of that worked. So I pulled those

1:29:03

apart and so I said, we're going to

1:29:05

begin by focusing a lot on narration and

1:29:08

the narration that we were doing in our family

1:29:10

was quite weak and I was trying to figure

1:29:12

out what to do about it and so I

1:29:15

just really started focusing on narration. And

1:29:17

so I'm practicing hand strength with

1:29:20

drawing, with art and

1:29:22

I'm practicing formulating ideas

1:29:24

with narration. Narration

1:29:26

just means, hey, tell me about the chapter of the book

1:29:28

that you just read or tell me about the page or

1:29:30

whatever it happens to be. That's narration. And

1:29:33

the child is practicing taking abstract thoughts

1:29:35

and turning them into words. That's what

1:29:37

narration does. Then I came

1:29:39

back to it, I can't remember, four or five months later

1:29:41

and then I introduced copy work. And

1:29:44

a new book, a new copy work and

1:29:47

what I found was that there was an

1:29:49

enormous difference between the four

1:29:51

months prior and now. And

1:29:54

so now we went in one year

1:29:56

from being way behind,

1:29:59

quote unquote, level to now

1:30:01

being substantially ahead of grade level,

1:30:03

the best I can tell, by

1:30:05

just giving some time and working

1:30:07

on those basic skills. And I

1:30:09

did it without needing to

1:30:11

resort to a whole lot of

1:30:13

problems and challenges, etc. So if

1:30:15

you're getting feedback, pushback, a lot

1:30:17

of negative energy, I think we

1:30:19

should first take responsibility for that

1:30:21

and say, before I try

1:30:24

to impose discipline or force the student

1:30:26

to do something, can I change something

1:30:28

about the task or the environment that

1:30:30

would help him to succeed? A couple

1:30:32

more examples from this practical

1:30:35

stuff. Math, right? Math

1:30:37

is often a challenge. So once

1:30:39

again, what is the challenge with

1:30:41

math? Well, math doesn't

1:30:43

need to be done formally at

1:30:45

a young age. It

1:30:48

is something that can be deferred with no

1:30:50

problem. You don't really need to do any

1:30:52

formal workbook math until fifth grade, and you

1:30:54

can make up whatever you're behind in a

1:30:56

few months in fifth grade. So let's give

1:30:58

ourselves a break. But let's

1:31:01

look for, let's try a

1:31:03

curriculum that appeals to us. Let's

1:31:06

break it apart. So what I do whenever there's

1:31:08

a problem is I try to say,

1:31:10

how can we dial back the E's just a

1:31:12

little bit? So I view resistance.

1:31:15

If I get resistance as

1:31:17

either complaining or dawdling

1:31:21

or resistance of any form, I just say,

1:31:23

let's go back a level and

1:31:26

make it a level easier. So with reading, if

1:31:28

there's something that I've assigned to be read, read

1:31:30

with the eyes, and there's resistance, then

1:31:32

the first thing I do is say, let me make the

1:31:34

reading shorter. Instead of it being a 30-minute

1:31:37

reading, let's make it a 10-minute reading. Or

1:31:40

before that, I'll do, let's keep it a

1:31:42

30-minute reading, but let's add an audiobook. If

1:31:44

that didn't work and there's still resistance, then

1:31:46

let's pull it back from a 30-minute reading

1:31:49

to a 15-minute reading with an audiobook. If

1:31:51

that doesn't work, let's pull it back to a

1:31:53

15-minute reading with dad doing the reading because

1:31:56

now we have a relational dynamic and it's

1:31:58

not impersonal with an audiobook narration. If that

1:32:00

doesn't work, let's just toss the book aside. Let's

1:32:02

come back to it in three months and let's

1:32:04

try it in three months. And every time I do

1:32:06

that, I find that three months is kind of magical.

1:32:08

Six months is magical and everything gets a little bit

1:32:10

better. So I don't think that we should focus

1:32:13

first and foremost on discipline, et

1:32:16

cetera, especially at the younger age.

1:32:18

Now, flipping. The

1:32:20

ability to concentrate is

1:32:22

a superpower that we want to develop

1:32:25

in a student. So

1:32:27

let's focus on approaching

1:32:29

it as a skill to be developed rather

1:32:32

than as a, rather

1:32:36

than as a something

1:32:38

that has to be overcome with discipline. So

1:32:41

with my, with both

1:32:43

of my older children, math

1:32:45

is what I have chosen to use

1:32:47

as the application of that, because math

1:32:49

is hard. And I teach my

1:32:52

children, why do we do math? We do math

1:32:54

because math is hard and math makes us smart.

1:32:56

We don't do it because it's useful. We don't do it because you

1:32:59

need it. We do it because it's hard. It's a workout. It's making

1:33:01

our brain smart. And so let's start

1:33:03

and let's figure out what is the

1:33:06

amount of focused math that

1:33:08

we can do that

1:33:10

doesn't result in loss

1:33:12

of focus and loss of concentration. So

1:33:15

I had some significant challenges with

1:33:17

my daughter, my

1:33:20

eight year old daughter, and I spent some time

1:33:22

and I pulled it back to exactly this. Let's

1:33:24

focus on math for 15 minutes and

1:33:27

I'm gonna make it as easy as possible. I'm gonna sit next to

1:33:29

you. I'm gonna sit next to you while you do math

1:33:31

and let's remove all the distractions and let's

1:33:33

see how many minutes of focused activity we

1:33:36

can do. And then as soon as

1:33:38

we lose focus, let's stop. And let's

1:33:40

see if we can do more tomorrow. So if we

1:33:42

did eight minutes of focused work today, great, wonderful. Let's

1:33:44

see if we can get to nine minutes and nine

1:33:46

minutes and stop, and 10 minutes and stop, et cetera.

1:33:49

And I found that to work really

1:33:51

effectively is let's pull back the scale

1:33:53

of it and let's focus on doing

1:33:55

what we can do. And

1:33:57

then when we reach the limit, let's

1:33:59

stop. there. I think that that's

1:34:01

also a better model. Think

1:34:03

of it like weightlifting. You don't take your

1:34:06

eight-year-old into a gym and put a 200-pound

1:34:08

barbell on his back and say squat. You

1:34:10

say, let's start with how many squats can

1:34:13

you do right with body

1:34:15

weights. Then how much squat

1:34:17

can you do with a bar with good

1:34:19

form? You want to keep adding the

1:34:21

weight steadily, but you want to be doing it

1:34:23

with good form. I think the same basic principle

1:34:25

applies to homeschooling. Before we

1:34:27

get to anything of rewards or punishments

1:34:30

or if you're not done in this

1:34:32

time, let's do all

1:34:34

of that stuff first and

1:34:36

then let's bring in

1:34:38

any additional systems that we need. In

1:34:42

general, I think that

1:34:44

I'm trying to think for a

1:34:46

moment. I am not currently using any

1:34:48

form of rewards

1:34:53

or penalties or

1:34:56

any of those things because I don't

1:34:59

see that that's helpful. I

1:35:01

think that it's better to focus on the core of

1:35:03

what we're doing and then go

1:35:06

from there. Right now, your

1:35:09

school day should be probably two hours,

1:35:11

maybe three hours maximum. It

1:35:13

should be broken up into 10 to 15-minute

1:35:16

lessons. No

1:35:19

lesson should be longer than about 15 minutes.

1:35:21

There should be a big fat break. Before

1:35:23

school, there should be a whole big play-out

1:35:25

side session with lots of energy and lots

1:35:27

of movement. There should be a big fat

1:35:29

play-out side session right in the middle and

1:35:31

then you should be done and go from

1:35:34

there. If you look at it and say,

1:35:36

where are we going over time, then let

1:35:41

me give one more practical example because I can actually speak

1:35:43

practically on this. I have a six-year-old boy who

1:35:46

is doing school.

1:35:48

The problem is that he

1:35:50

doesn't seem to have much

1:35:53

interest in academic stuff. We

1:35:55

keep bringing in a little

1:35:58

measure and so we We

1:36:00

had an exciting start to first grade. Okay, let's go through

1:36:02

and let's do some workbooks

1:36:04

and things like that. Well, this

1:36:07

boy is not interested in reading. He just

1:36:09

not interested. Doesn't wanna learn to

1:36:11

read. You go through the same thing, just

1:36:13

not grasping it. So my wife scraps the

1:36:15

entire curriculum and she inserted night training. And

1:36:17

so quite literally she built, I forget what

1:36:19

she calls it, but those things that you

1:36:21

take a lance and you joust with and

1:36:23

put the younger boys on their bicycle and

1:36:25

they go out and they do night training

1:36:27

every day. And we have swords, we do

1:36:29

sword fighting and we do night training,

1:36:31

et cetera. All those things, they're all

1:36:33

physical. He's a super physical child. But

1:36:37

I'm not gonna give up on the skill. I'm just

1:36:39

gonna focus on what we can do.

1:36:42

And so we use one couple of, I

1:36:45

found a video-based learn to read

1:36:47

program that we do

1:36:50

for 10 minutes every day. I don't

1:36:52

require performance on it. I

1:36:54

just require 10 minutes of input. And

1:36:56

then I'm focusing on concentration with audio

1:36:58

book listening. And so I require

1:37:01

a certain amount of audio book listening. Doesn't have to read with

1:37:03

his ears, sorry, with his eyes, but he does have to read

1:37:05

with his ears. And we do a lot of reading aloud too.

1:37:08

My wife does a lot of reading aloud. We do art, we do

1:37:10

picture study, we do all the other stuff. And

1:37:12

so I'm seeing this work with this child

1:37:14

who is very resistant to learning to read.

1:37:17

And I would expect that, I don't know if it'll

1:37:19

happen six months from now, a year from

1:37:21

now, I would expect that the learning to

1:37:23

read thing will just naturally solve itself. It

1:37:25

seems to resolve, most of these problems seem

1:37:28

to resolve themselves with either a few more

1:37:30

trips of the moon around

1:37:32

the earth, or in some cases, a couple

1:37:34

more trips, revolutions of the earth about the

1:37:36

sun. So these

1:37:39

approaches, I think should

1:37:41

be our primary thing, especially at a

1:37:44

young age, and don't resort to discipline

1:37:46

or punishments, et cetera, unless

1:37:48

you've gone through a long list

1:37:51

of these approaches, making

1:37:54

the curriculum more attractive, bringing it

1:37:56

down to this level, shortening the

1:37:58

lessons up, requiring total concentration. for

1:38:00

five minutes and then being done,

1:38:02

do all of that stuff before

1:38:04

you get to punishments, rewards, things

1:38:07

like that. Excellent.

1:38:12

This is very helpful. It

1:38:15

has opened the doors to

1:38:17

a new approach to our problem that

1:38:19

we haven't considered. Good. I'm glad. Thank

1:38:21

you, Yoshua. Yeah, I tried to give

1:38:23

you as many practical examples as I

1:38:25

could from this perspective. Even

1:38:28

if we were dealing with a teenager, I

1:38:30

think the same basic psychology

1:38:33

applies is let's celebrate what we

1:38:35

can do and let's focus

1:38:37

on what we can do and let's be super

1:38:41

focused on building these things as muscles,

1:38:43

as skills. I

1:38:46

do talk to my children about this. I

1:38:48

don't allow things like toys at

1:38:50

the desk. My comment to them is

1:38:52

that I teach them your

1:38:55

basic superpower in the fullness of

1:38:57

time as an adult is going to be your

1:38:59

ability to do deep work, your ability

1:39:01

to focus on hard tasks for

1:39:03

extended periods of time. That's

1:39:05

what we're developing, but we're not going to get

1:39:07

there in a month or even

1:39:10

a year. It's going to be multiple years,

1:39:12

but we're not going to sabotage ourselves. We

1:39:14

don't have to do an hour of deep work at

1:39:16

this stage. What we do need to

1:39:18

do though is keep the toys off the desk and then celebrate

1:39:21

what we can do. Don't take the

1:39:23

structure, recognize that

1:39:26

schooling in a school

1:39:28

system and homeschooling or home education,

1:39:30

better said, are very different

1:39:32

things. The reason

1:39:34

schools need school teachers is

1:39:37

that teaching a

1:39:39

classroom of 30 young

1:39:41

people is a

1:39:43

very specialized skill set

1:39:46

where you need specialized

1:39:48

training in classroom management

1:39:50

and psychological control. You

1:39:53

have to build all these systems to keep a

1:39:56

classroom of 30 students on

1:39:58

task. you

1:40:00

don't need any of those things. You need

1:40:02

an engaged

1:40:04

adult who is able to

1:40:07

look where the child is and

1:40:10

bring the child to appropriate educational

1:40:12

resources and provide some structure

1:40:14

to it. And you can make enormous advances

1:40:16

in that context and it doesn't need to

1:40:19

be painful. So anytime you get up against

1:40:21

that level of pain, drop back a little

1:40:23

bit, reassess, and then come back. And three

1:40:25

months now, six months from now, you'll find

1:40:27

that probably the pain is gone. Lucas

1:40:30

in New Jersey, welcome to the show. How can I serve you

1:40:32

today? Hey,

1:40:35

Joshua, I had a question for you. Fairly

1:40:37

simple one. How

1:40:40

would you think about what services to

1:40:42

outsource for someone who's struggled?

1:40:44

One, struggles to ask for help in general, but

1:40:47

also I'm a new business owner,

1:40:49

I have a W2 job. And

1:40:53

that's all part of the plan, but time

1:40:55

is getting really short. So any tips on

1:40:57

what to outsource things like house cleaning, accounting,

1:40:59

lawn care, is there a philosophy here that

1:41:01

you maintain? Have you done a personalized time

1:41:03

study, the time diary, a time journal for

1:41:06

yourself? I

1:41:08

know I haven't. I think before

1:41:10