0:02

Hey, I'm Kathy Walker from The Girls States

0:04

World Trust, the GDST. We're family

0:07

of twenty five girls schools across the

0:09

UK. We were founded by women

0:11

four girls a hundred and fifty years ago.

0:13

And to this day, we remain experts

0:16

in educating and inspiring girls.

0:18

On each episode of Fraser Up, we welcome

0:20

guests who are experts in their fields

0:22

to share their insights and to create

0:24

the ultimate guide to raising and

0:27

powering girls, women, and everybody

0:29

else. On this episode

0:31

of Fraser Up, I'm speaking to the woman who made the

0:33

government abolish the tampon tax Laura

0:35

Corrigan.

0:38

So I searched the petition thinking it would

0:40

absolutely not succeed because

0:42

you know, this petition is about taxation and menstruation,

0:45

not exactly too sexy topics at the time.

0:47

Suddenly, people I'd never even heard of before

0:49

deciding it was amazing. And this is the first

0:51

time a country's ever gone to European Union

0:54

and asked them to change a specific tax

0:56

on a specific product and they all agreed.

0:59

To build on this most excellent legacy, Laura

1:01

has set up such said matters, a charity that

1:03

delivers relationship and sets education

1:05

to schools. From the GDST, this

1:07

is rates are up and this is Laura

1:10

Corrington. I thought what's going through her

1:12

forgive reason as a hell of giving her

1:14

love. Ladies are up.

1:17

Welcome, Laura. It is absolutely fantastic

1:19

to have you on rate up at last.

1:21

Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited.

1:24

So, Laura, you are responsible for

1:26

changing history for women in this country.

1:29

You have literally changed the line of

1:31

women through the work that you've done through the

1:33

abolition of the tampon tax. Do you ever just

1:35

sit down and have a little moment to reflect on the difference

1:38

you've made? That's a really good

1:40

question actually. You know what? No one's ever asked me

1:42

that before. I don't

1:44

think so because it's such a, like, continual

1:47

flow of work that's happening. You're sort of

1:49

always focused on the next thing you want to

1:51

do. And also because it involves

1:53

so many people, you kind of see it as a collective

1:55

you obviously. And so it's something that

1:58

we kinda try and celebrate each other. It's kind of

2:00

continuing conversation, if that makes sense. A

2:02

collective picture. I love that. I also quite like your

2:04

use of them, the continuous flow there. I assume

2:06

that that wasn't a pun. I've

2:09

just spoken about periods for so long. These come

2:11

out of me, I don't even realize. Absolutely.

2:15

Tell us about how this campaign came about.

2:17

You know, what was the catalyst for you looking

2:19

into this

2:19

tax? Because obviously, women have been paying

2:21

VAT on period products

2:23

for decades. So why at that

2:25

moment did you decide that you had

2:27

to take action? And what did you find when

2:29

you started to kind of feel about

2:31

the layers?

2:32

Well, it was almost an

2:34

accidental journey to activism, to

2:36

be honest, which is something I hear a lot of. I

2:38

found out about the tax when my friend sent

2:40

me. I think it was a buzzfeed article about

2:43

all the strange things that we're taxed on. And in

2:45

period products were included in that list.

2:47

And when I first saw it, I kind of thought, okay.

2:49

Well, maybe that makes sense. You know, we know nothing

2:51

about tax. So maybe everything else is taxed

2:53

more, maybe that's like our lowest taxation

2:56

level. This is back when I was at university, and

2:58

I was like desperately trying to find good reasons

3:00

not to revise. And I thought,

3:02

you know, investigating this might be one of them.

3:05

So I had to look into the tax system and I found

3:07

that certain things are tax for being, like,

3:09

luxury items and these include period

3:11

products. So the high school is right. But

3:13

other items escape tax altogether because

3:16

they're considered to be essential. And

3:18

these items include things like maintaining

3:20

our private helicopters and

3:22

easing crocodile me -- Mhmm. -- playing

3:24

bingo. I just thought that's really

3:26

unfair. So that's and has started the petition.

3:29

Yeah. As we record this, there's a lot of

3:31

talk about the cost of living crisis. So interesting

3:33

to know that crocodile mates I

3:35

guess, is seen as affordable, but

3:39

period products are are indeed luxury. But

3:41

that's no longer the case. Is it? So what happened?

3:43

So I started the petition thinking

3:45

it would absolutely not succeed

3:48

because, you know, this petition is about taxation

3:50

and menstruation, not exactly too sexy

3:52

topics at the time. Anyway, I just started

3:54

the petition because I thought it would be fun. I

3:56

shared it with a couple of my friends, and

3:58

they signed it. They shared it with their friends,

4:00

who signed it, who shared it with their friends, who

4:02

signed and suddenly people I'd never even

4:04

had it before signing it. It was amazing. And

4:07

this was all over that instant message

4:09

really. I didn't even post it on social media

4:11

at that time. And then all of a sudden, we started

4:13

to have, like, thousands of signatures. And

4:15

then it's like, okay. Well, actually, maybe

4:17

this is more attainable than I

4:19

ever thought it would And so, yeah, we went from

4:21

there really, like, we had people emailing

4:23

in, being, like, can it please support in

4:25

other ways? And then we started to ask people

4:27

to write to their members of parliament or

4:29

to ask their friends to sign it. And then

4:31

some people would have sheets of paper and

4:33

they would like go around fresher spare at their

4:35

university asking people to sign it and they would like

4:37

email us the list of signatures. It

4:40

was amazing. So people power. People

4:42

power exactly. Talk to us a little bit

4:44

about the bumps along the way. Certainly in

4:46

your book, speak up, and we'll talk about that

4:48

later. You talked about when you realized that

4:50

the EU legislation would

4:52

need to be overcome, and there were a few

4:54

shocks that came out of

4:55

that, weren't there? Definitely. I think

4:57

we had so many hurdles

5:00

along the way that I absolutely did

5:02

not foresee. And I think you're right. I'm really glad

5:04

you asked that because it's such an important

5:06

part of campaigning. I mean, quite often, we

5:08

only see the successes of campaigns, and we just

5:10

think campaigning is all about succeeding. And

5:12

and then when you do start your own campaign, you

5:14

do fail a you think, oh god, like,

5:16

I'm never gonna succeed because all of these

5:18

people never had bumps in the road. But in actual

5:21

fact, all campaigners have really

5:23

big hurdles So, yeah, the biggest

5:25

one we face is definitely the one that you mentioned

5:27

with the European Union. So,

5:29

having lobbied and petitioned

5:31

prime minister, who's David Cameron at the time.

5:34

For about two years,

5:36

we then realized that actually

5:38

we're petitioning the wrong person. And

5:40

instead, we should have been petitioning the European

5:42

Union, this is pre Brexit. You know,

5:44

the European Union has sovereignty over

5:46

all member states, say that they can kind of

5:48

make sure that all taxation legislation is

5:50

consistent. So that was a

5:52

huge bump. But actually,

5:54

it ended up being our biggest success, I

5:56

think, because we then had to

5:58

go straight to camera and say, you know,

6:00

will you please help us take this to the European

6:02

Parliament, which he did, and he

6:04

basically asked all of the European member

6:07

states if they would agree that

6:09

period products should be tax exempt

6:11

or at least the lowest level of taxation

6:13

rate in their member country. And this

6:15

is the first time a country's ever gone to European

6:17

Union and asked them to change a

6:19

specific tax on a specific product.

6:22

And we had to get unanimous agreement from

6:24

all member states for that to happen, and they

6:26

all agreed, which was incredible. So

6:28

that's a real insight as well, isn't it

6:30

into how long it takes to get these things through

6:32

because that was I right think it was twenty seventeen,

6:34

twenty eighteen, and it's taken that long to

6:36

get through. When we had a

6:38

a chat about this, you told me about an unlikely

6:41

supporter who came out to help

6:43

your campaign. And what that

6:45

taught you was that perhaps you don't always

6:47

want to have everybody on size. Yes.

6:50

So that was a rather

6:52

sort of fun to the road. That

6:54

was during the start of the

6:56

whole break situation, which is

6:58

something I also didn't realize TurboTax would be

7:00

dragged into. And

7:02

basically, a a report

7:04

came out of a photo inside

7:07

Notion Fry's car. And

7:09

in his car, it had a notepad on

7:11

which it said campaigns I need

7:13

to back. And number one was the Tampa

7:15

Times campaign because he

7:17

obviously cares about women. So,

7:20

yeah, that was a bit tricky. For

7:23

sure. But, yeah, that was really hard

7:25

because I think one of the reasons why the petition

7:27

got so many signatures was that we were

7:29

we tried really hard to be a political, so

7:31

anyone that any political persuasion

7:33

could sign this petition and there would be no arguments

7:35

about the fact that this tax needs to be axed.

7:37

But then when it was used as a political football

7:39

and the Brexit debate, it was,

7:41

yeah, really tricky. So in

7:43

twenty eighteen, Scotland took the step of supplying

7:46

free period products, didn't they do all

7:48

school and university students. And in a

7:50

recent episode of racer, we were lucky

7:52

enough to have Professor Dame Leslie Regan

7:54

who is an expert in women's health, and

7:56

she was saying that she had

7:58

witnessed period poverty in in Paddington

8:00

London where her hospital is,

8:02

which was comparable or worse

8:05

than the period property she saw through her

8:07

work in Sub Saharan Africa with the World Health

8:09

Organization. So is that a

8:11

campaign that you're prepared to take on? Do you think could

8:13

we the same in England and Wales as

8:15

as the very enlightened country

8:17

of my birth. Wow. That sounds really

8:19

powerful. I'm I'm definitely gonna have to

8:21

listen to that episode for transmitting. But,

8:24

yeah, it's actually really interesting that you mentioned

8:26

this because there are petitions and

8:28

campaigns already established that it's

8:30

trying to get the same legislation

8:32

across the United Kingdom that is in place in

8:34

Scotland. And so, yeah, you can sign up

8:36

petitions and change the org. It's

8:38

by Gabbie Edlin. So hopefully,

8:40

yeah, we will see the same legislation in

8:42

Westminster. In

8:46

each episode of Fraser Up, we are

8:48

joined by a member of our GDSC

8:50

family to give their perspective on the

8:52

matter at hand. And today, we're joined

8:54

by Sarah Carroll, who is curriculum

8:56

leader for human social and political studies

8:58

at Belvedere Academy in Liverpool.

9:03

So, Sarah, guest today is Laura

9:04

Gordon, who has

9:07

campaigns to have the tax on

9:09

sanitary goods abolished. It'd be great to

9:11

hear about what you are doing above your academy

9:13

to encourage that campaigning and

9:15

activist mindset and to raise

9:17

awareness of such issues with your student

9:19

body. At Belvedere, we really

9:21

encourage our students who be

9:23

active citizens and

9:25

through a mix of our PSHE and

9:27

our citizenship programs. We're

9:29

regularly talking about

9:31

how students can have their voices heard,

9:33

how they can take part, how they

9:35

can use their right to freedom

9:37

speech to actually make the changes that

9:39

they want see in the world last

9:41

year following the the merger of

9:43

Sarah Eberrad. A number of our

9:45

students actually took what they

9:47

learned and put that into action. Number

9:49

of students actually wrote emails to

9:51

to myself, to our principal, Julie

9:54

Taylor, and to all the members of the

9:56

school community and sent walked through to you to stop

9:58

this happening. They've done their research.

10:00

And actually, one of the things that we did

10:02

was they started up, I think, well, what's

10:04

our data? What's our background here?

10:06

So they looked into a survey

10:08

across the school. We then took that to

10:10

a number of individuals within

10:13

Liverpool, so the the direct of children

10:15

services, director of education, Liverpool,

10:17

but we also took it to the mayor,

10:19

Joanne Anderson, and we were put in

10:21

touch with student ambassadors for

10:24

Liverpool City Council. They came into school and did

10:26

a workshop with our students. And

10:28

also Mercy Travel came in to speak to us

10:30

Judith Lucas, one of the things that they highlighted was

10:32

the issues surrounding public transport

10:34

and violence and harassment towards women

10:36

and girls. We actually received a

10:38

draft copy of the mayor's

10:40

violence against women and girls, the

10:42

report and the program that she's

10:44

looking to put into place this year. So hopefully,

10:46

that's gonna be launched in January with a

10:48

lot of input from our students in

10:50

it. So this has made our students

10:52

even more aware of the power that they

10:54

have to effects change and to

10:56

have a voice. We undertook a

10:58

variety of actions from,

11:00

you know, survey to writing letters

11:02

to actual face to face meetings

11:05

getting in contact with those with political

11:07

power, both in the local

11:09

council and in the Westminster parliament. So

11:11

it's really think open does jean size to the

11:13

fact that a campaign

11:15

that is well planned, well

11:17

researched and done with passion

11:19

can actually get people to listen. I

11:21

think it's start number of of our students kind of

11:23

thought, what's the point? Nothing's gonna happen? Nothing

11:25

ever changes? And whilst it's made them

11:27

realize that change is slow, and we don't

11:29

always get the instant

11:31

impact that we want. Actually, I think

11:33

they've all understood that every one person

11:35

having a voice, every person having to

11:37

say It's those small steps, and that's what leads to

11:39

change. And we're really proud of what we've done

11:41

especially when the mayor's listened to us and

11:43

made a new policy. So,

11:45

yeah, fantastic, really proud of our students.

11:47

Okay. Let's let's talk about your

11:50

book, speak up. I'm gonna say a young

11:52

woman or a young girl's guide to

11:54

campaigning. It is a really

11:56

lovely, accessible, engaging,

11:58

exciting book and it's kind

12:00

of written for the younger

12:01

audience, isn't it? What led you to write

12:04

it? And and specifically, what led you

12:06

to aim at girls? So

12:08

I decided to write this book

12:10

because I basically wish I had this

12:12

book when I was younger. And it's

12:14

all about, as you say, campaigning, kind

12:16

of demonstrating house campaign,

12:18

and hopefully, will allow

12:20

girls to think that they can campaign and they

12:22

can make changes. And they don't just have to

12:24

accept, you know, everyday

12:26

sex is and the barriers that they face is just

12:28

being a normal part of life. Like, it's a part

12:30

of life that they can change. And I

12:32

wanted to specifically make it for

12:34

girls, although hopefully, it will be helpful for

12:36

anyone because we don't really see a

12:38

lot of female voices in the political

12:40

actinants and space, but online

12:42

at optimism is really changing that. And so I kind of

12:44

wanted to help in that kind of

12:46

change. There's a really interesting

12:48

stat on this actually from changed at all, which

12:50

is the petition website that I used for the templates

12:53

campaign. And they found that most

12:55

depositions are started by

12:57

men, but most of successful petitions, so

12:59

the ones that reach their goals. They're

13:01

started by women, which I think is really interesting

13:03

because you're now getting this new

13:05

wave of campaigners coming out, which is great.

13:07

There's a part of speak up where you

13:09

say that women campaigners are successful

13:11

because they are more community minded.

13:13

They're more persuasive, and I think it says

13:15

that they are more persistent,

13:17

I think. It was just a really

13:19

interesting little bit about how,

13:21

you know, qualities that perhaps young women

13:23

develop because of, you know,

13:25

the way they are subjected

13:28

to various social norms perhaps make them

13:30

more resilient to this than than

13:32

men. Yeah. And they also think that they

13:34

offer, like, a new perspective

13:36

on political debates that we haven't really

13:38

heard that much before because they haven't had the

13:40

platform from which to speak. And so

13:42

now you're hearing these new perspectives. And that's

13:44

why the tablet's petition was so interesting to

13:46

people is because they just hadn't heard of it before.

13:49

They were paying this tax for so long and they

13:51

didn't know, which I think is

13:53

great. And also, unchanged at all, at least,

13:55

the vast majority of people who share the

13:57

petitions online and you sign the petitions are

13:59

also women. So again, it's not like

14:01

women supporting women and amplifying those

14:03

messages, which is this thing is really interesting

14:05

shift. Yeah. Definitely. So

14:08

since this successful campaign

14:10

and the book speak up, you've set up an

14:12

educational charity, haven't you called sex

14:14

ed Matos? Tell us a bit about that. Yeah. So

14:16

this is probably the most, like,

14:18

terrifying journey ever taken

14:21

because it's just so

14:24

to, like, leap into the unknown.

14:26

But yeah. So I cofounded

14:28

this organization and set set it

14:30

matters in two thousand and nineteen. Just before

14:32

the pandemic, which was not the smartest

14:34

move, but, you know, who knew that was

14:36

coming. And, yes, we deliver

14:38

sex ed campaign focused,

14:40

workshop and resources in schools,

14:42

and we specialize in consent

14:44

periods, obviously, which includes menopause,

14:46

friendships and bullying, and then gender

14:48

and sexuality as well. And they're

14:50

kind of the more political side

14:53

of the new relationships and sex education

14:55

curriculum that teaches or some

14:57

schools at least maybe a bit more

14:59

nervous about delivering because they they haven't had the

15:01

training to do it. So, yeah, we wanted to

15:03

support them. My next question was going

15:05

to be kind of reactions and it's interesting to hear you say that people

15:07

get nervous about how they deliver it.

15:09

Definitely. So there's research

15:11

to found that I think it's two

15:13

thirds of teachers that have to or

15:15

are tasked with delivering the new, like I

15:17

said, curriculum, haven't received any

15:19

training at all. And say, how can we expect

15:21

them to be confident about these topics when

15:23

they're trying to deliver them without

15:25

any training? So, yeah, it's been

15:27

received really well and especially amongst

15:29

voice schools. We've kind of tried to specialize in going to

15:31

voice schools, especially with the consent workshops,

15:34

which has been really interesting.

15:37

is interesting. So do you think that's because

15:39

boys schools are more acutely aware of

15:41

the whole Me Too movement

15:43

or the everyone's invited campaign? Yeah,

15:45

that's really interesting dynamic as well

15:47

because we kind of

15:49

really kicked off after the Everest

15:51

Invites campaign. We looked and

15:54

emailed a lot of the schools that were

15:56

mentioned in there, like the all boys quite elite

15:58

private schools. And we just said, look,

16:00

there's this issue going on in your school. We can

16:02

help you to solve it through consent

16:04

webshops, consent conferences, and and

16:06

these kind of activities. And

16:08

so that's how we kind of got a foot in the

16:10

door, which was really how and we've

16:12

gone back every year since

16:14

then. And it's really interesting to see because

16:16

I think kids, they come out with their, like, anxieties

16:19

and real thoughts and beliefs when they're speaking to

16:21

someone that they've never spoken to before, or

16:23

that they know they're not maybe not gonna speak to

16:25

again, kind of, things that they have that annuity. So

16:27

you have a real privilege position in that regard,

16:29

I guess. Certainly, because one thing that we talk about quite a

16:31

lot on here is that parents are suddenly

16:33

quite often the last people that young people

16:35

will will maybe confide in

16:37

or heed, in fact. And just to go back

16:39

to everyone's advice, just for anybody

16:41

listening who and everybody invite everyone's

16:43

advice, is very London centric thing. Isn't

16:45

it? It was it was so a young woman called

16:48

Sumasara set up a website where

16:50

victims of sexual assault could

16:53

anonymously share their experiences, and it

16:55

did name check a

16:57

number of independent schools primarily

17:00

coward boy schools and primarily in the

17:02

London area. And so that really did lift

17:04

the lid, didn't it on lots of

17:06

kind of historic, you

17:08

know, really disturbing behavior

17:10

that people had just become

17:12

in your too. Have you had any kind of

17:14

backlash against the work that you do or any kind

17:16

of challenging or tricky situations?

17:19

Definitely. We for

17:21

example, it's it's really interesting. Actually, when

17:23

we do into schools. So for example, in one

17:26

school, the head teacher was really really keen that

17:28

we go in. And I won't mention which school it

17:30

is, but they were keen. They kind of thought

17:32

there might be issues going

17:34

on throughout the school that consent workshop could

17:36

help to solve. But when we got

17:38

into the the school itself, the

17:40

teachers weren't all that

17:42

supportive, And one teacher in particular really

17:44

kind of didn't want us to come in and give us

17:46

the consent workshops because we were

17:48

given these to boys

17:50

in year six. And he felt that was too

17:52

young even though the school had identified they were

17:55

having issues of sexual harassment in year

17:57

seven. So this teacher he

17:59

basically stopped us from going into his

18:01

classroom for the first, like, fifteen minutes

18:03

of the one hour workshop

18:05

because he thought it was too advanced. But then

18:07

after we finished the workshop he came in

18:09

and he asked his students, oh,

18:11

now put your hands up students. He's

18:13

going on to the next class, which is

18:15

gonna be Latin and who's gonna be

18:17

speaking Arabic. And it's like if Latin and

18:19

Arabic are not too advanced, then how is

18:21

consent to it? Yes. It's

18:23

absolutely ridiculous. But

18:25

I think, yeah, so you didn't know

18:27

that's tricky. Yeah. Really

18:29

interesting. I I wonder you just have to

18:31

hope that those year six boys were not in your

18:33

shots of their teacher saying that they didn't need to

18:35

learn about consent. Anyway, kind of on that

18:37

subject, I guess, kind of on the role

18:39

that it has a crucial

18:41

role that boys and men have to

18:43

play. Tell us about the book that

18:45

you had in the pipeline and the response that

18:47

you had to it, Laura? Yes.

18:50

So That's something I'm so interested in because I just

18:52

think boys and men, they have such a huge vital

18:54

role to play. And we have seen

18:56

campaigners that are male that have made

18:58

a real lasting impression

19:00

on their peers, their friends, their family,

19:02

and that kind of thing. So, you know, the impact

19:04

that they can make is just so huge.

19:06

I just think it's so important to engage

19:08

them and make them feel welcome in

19:10

a world where a consent is

19:13

normal that they have agency that they

19:15

have agency exactly. And so

19:17

I wanted to write a book which

19:19

was gonna be a dating guide

19:21

for boys and it would be

19:25

very feminist but kind of under the radar

19:27

checklist. So it was called how to

19:29

pick up girls and otherwise. And it

19:31

would be all about the ways

19:33

that boys have

19:35

did they just learn about things like how

19:37

to date girls, how to treat women in

19:39

such a derogatory way

19:42

often. When it comes to, like, pickup on YouTube that they

19:44

look at. And when it comes to even the songs that

19:46

they hear and, like, the lyrics that they

19:48

listen to or normalize without even thinking

19:50

about it. When it comes to TV

19:52

shows that we watch, when it comes to advice

19:54

that they get from their friends. So all of these

19:56

things, they paint a picture for boys and they

19:58

paint a normal standard of

20:00

treating women that is so much

20:02

lower than it should be. And that's not their

20:04

fault. That's just the world that surround them that

20:06

they have to consume. In

20:08

order to kind of feel normal or feel

20:11

masculine and feel like they're able to

20:13

thrive in in the world. In in our

20:15

societies, it's it's not awful at

20:17

all. So this book was

20:19

basically the antithesis to that, and it was

20:21

offering them a new way to think

20:23

about dating and a new way to think about girls

20:25

in general, whether you want to date them or

20:28

not. That was different to that, but not challenging

20:30

their masculinity at the same time because I think

20:32

that's a pathway that a lot of boys find really

20:34

challenging to carve for themselves because they don't

20:36

have that many role models in that

20:39

sphere. So yeah. Anyway, I did loads of research

20:41

for it, and and I was really excited about

20:43

it, but the publishers sadly came

20:45

back and said that boys are

20:47

unlikely to read a book about

20:49

feminism even if it's kind of dressed up as a dating

20:51

guide, and they're even less likely

20:53

to read one by a woman, which

20:55

is really sad. You know, how would

20:57

you know in a way unless it's out

20:59

there for them that they can make the choice if they

21:01

want to buy it or not? And

21:03

it seems just so, like, necessary. It's

21:06

really frustrating that, you know, that's

21:08

sort of stopping it from being in

21:10

the world. If we have any publishers

21:12

listening, please offer Laura a

21:14

Brookdale on that. It's so

21:16

interesting what you say about how, you

21:18

know, that that foreign culture to

21:20

permeates mainstream culture, and our young people

21:22

are bombarded with it

21:24

everywhere. And it's really it's not surprising

21:26

that we live in a world where

21:28

these norms exist?

21:30

Or are these so called norms?

21:32

Right. You've been out to all sorts of really interesting things

21:34

recently. Haven't you you I you on

21:36

in Instagram and Twitter, and I see that you've

21:38

been to Dining Street and that you've also

21:41

met a very important person.

21:43

Tell us a bit more about that. Yeah.

21:46

So so this is an

21:48

phrase that my sister and I run

21:50

Julia, we an

21:52

award for it called the Points of Light Award. And so, yeah, we

21:54

went to Downing Street, and it

21:56

was really especially exciting because

21:58

we were there We actually left

22:00

Downing Street ten minutes before the vote of no confidence

22:02

took place, which was quite an

22:05

exciting day today. So

22:09

Did you see that he had about what's gonna be happening?

22:11

No. He I think he was maybe

22:13

a bit busy. I'm not sure. But we he

22:15

was originally gonna come in, I think, to say make

22:17

speech, but I think he was tied up elsewhere.

22:20

So, yeah, that was really

22:22

really fun, and that was something,

22:24

yeah, very specialty experience with my sister

22:26

as well, which was great. Yeah. And then it

22:29

also met with president Obama, which

22:31

was very surreal.

22:33

When you see him in real life, you kind of

22:36

just think in your brain that you're watching a video on YouTube or

22:38

something, it doesn't quite click that it's real

22:40

life for a while. It

22:42

was an interesting session. It

22:44

it basically all came from program

22:46

opened on in the last six months with the

22:48

Obama Foundation. And it's

22:50

taking, like, activists, campaigners across

22:52

Europe and bringing them all together. We meet

22:54

once or twice a week. For six months. And

22:56

we just discuss, like, campaign tactics

22:58

and narratives and all this kind of thing that

23:00

will hopefully help us campaign. So it's

23:02

been amazing and I didn't get

23:05

tongue tied but only because I was

23:07

most like nervous slash excited to meet the

23:09

other people on the course that I

23:11

felt like you know, we've been chatting about them

23:13

so long and you meet people's stories and

23:15

there are such amazing people on this course.

23:17

Yeah. I was like, I think that was the big then

23:19

once you've met your kind of campaign family,

23:21

you feel a lot more comfortable

23:24

like me, someone like

23:26

Obama's face. So, yeah, that was really really

23:28

fun. And he was amazing. Like, it

23:30

was really cool because back

23:32

in two thousand sixteen, he was

23:34

interviewed in America by a

23:37

famous YouTuber. And she asked him a

23:39

question about tampon tags, which was so

23:41

cool. And he was the first

23:43

mainstream political figure to

23:45

connect issues like tampon tax with the lack of

23:48

female politicians that we have in countries.

23:50

We had more physical women,

23:52

leading countries we would never be having this

23:54

discussion. And he said he was sure

23:56

Michelle would agree. And that's

23:59

that's sounds quite basic, but like it was

24:01

so impactful because it

24:03

really, like, made our political leaders take it all

24:05

much more seriously as well as what the

24:07

sister positions that we've got in every continent

24:09

across the world now. And so that

24:11

was just so impactful. So I got to tell him that,

24:13

like, it was amazing and that really had such an

24:15

impact on us, which is great, which is yeah. It

24:18

seems like such a full circle moment. Yes. How

24:20

satisfying, how profoundly

24:23

satisfying for you to have that

24:25

that that moment. And I I don't imagine that many campaigners

24:27

actually get that sense

24:30

of bringing something fully

24:32

to fruition, do though? The

24:34

whole program also made me realize

24:37

that his style of leadership is

24:39

so unique and so important.

24:41

In that he really does bring other people along

24:43

with him, opens conversation. So we

24:46

were all meeting up in Copenhagen so

24:48

that we could meet up

24:50

during the Copenhagen Democracy

24:52

Summit of twenty twenty two. And we had from

24:54

so many different leaders from, like, President

24:56

Zelensky to the

24:58

President of the European Parliament and

25:00

all of these figures. But President

25:02

Obama was the only one to,

25:04

a, like, critically analyze

25:06

democracy across Europe. Is

25:08

something that was not even brought up until

25:10

then. And b, bring other

25:12

people on the stage with him. So

25:14

he was allowed to bring three in

25:16

my cohort and stayed with him and and no one else did that.

25:18

And I just thought that was such a great example of

25:20

like a leadership where you'd uplift other

25:22

people and bring them in, and yeah, I thought

25:24

it was great. So Laura, you're not

25:26

yet authority. You've accomplished so

25:29

much. You've seen a a

25:31

successful sociopolitical campaign

25:33

through to fruition. You've

25:35

published a book. You set up your own

25:37

educational charity. What's next?

25:39

So I do really want this data

25:41

guide to be a thing at some point for voice.

25:43

But, you know, he knows. But

25:46

then yeah. So next, I'm

25:48

just gonna, like, continue hopefully, greatness

25:51

education and organization. And

25:53

we kinda wanna do lots of new things that we wanna

25:55

be going to universities because we know that a lot

25:57

of consent issues happen in freshers week.

25:59

So if we could kind of help tackle that,

26:01

that would be great. It'll be brilliant if

26:03

we could expand also to

26:06

organizations like the Met Police, for

26:08

example, or even like workshops

26:10

with parliamentarians because we know that I

26:12

think it's fifty six parliamentarians are currently facing

26:15

sexual harassment or abuse, which is

26:17

crazy accusations. And

26:20

so, yeah, these, like,

26:23

huge organizations and

26:25

institutional bodies. If

26:27

we could really tackle the

26:29

misogyny that's so normalized amongst them. Even

26:31

on you know, even just through workshops

26:33

to begin with, that would be really, really

26:35

amazing. So, yeah, hopefully,

26:38

one day. That would be great. I love your

26:40

analogy of the of of sex and being like tree

26:42

where you need to kind of attack the roots and always bring it down,

26:44

but I guess you also need to go top down, don't

26:46

you? With the people who have the power.

26:49

And can I ask you for some final

26:51

words of wisdom? If there are any

26:53

younger versions of Laura, they're thinking,

26:55

I want to make a change. What are your top

26:58

tips? Definitely just like go for it, which sounds ridiculous. But

27:00

I was watching a talk by Gina Martin

27:03

who made upskating illegal. She's

27:05

an amazing campaigner. And

27:07

she was asked this exact question at the end of

27:09

her talk. And she said, oh, I would

27:11

tell myself, tell me on myself to be

27:13

more ambitious, which is really

27:15

funny because she is one of the most

27:17

ambitious campaign that I know. But

27:20

she just said to herself that I just wish I was more

27:22

ambitious because now we know we can change things. We

27:24

can do things. It now kind of feels

27:26

like the limit is potentially endless and, you

27:28

know, I think it's just that initial step

27:30

of learning that you can do things and you can't change them

27:32

and then you feel like you can do

27:34

anything, which is great to say, yeah, it would my

27:36

main tip would just be to go for it. You know,

27:38

keep your eye on the wall when it comes to your

27:40

campaign in terms of keep your eye on the

27:42

eventual prize. Like,

27:44

in my second sentence ending

27:46

tampon tax, and then just

27:48

gave for it. Perhaps he gave

27:50

for it. Thank you, Laura. It

27:52

has been such a pleasure to have you

27:54

on Rosa, what a great

27:56

conversation. Thank you for being such

27:58

an inspiration, and thank you also

28:00

For having the tampon tax abolished, can I just say

28:02

thank you on behalf of all those people out there who menstruating?

28:04

Thank you for being with us today. Thank

28:06

you so much having me. It's been so brilliant. Thank

28:09

you. And Laura's book's speak up is out now,

28:11

and you can also follow her on Twitter at

28:13

Laura Corrington. So

28:15

that was such a great chat.

28:17

I was just completely fascinated by

28:19

what Laura said about how the

28:21

most successful petitions that reach

28:23

their goals? Are those started by

28:26

women? I find that fascinating. As

28:28

she said, women are more community minded, more

28:30

persuasive, more persistent, and, you know, are

28:32

these the qualities that women develop

28:34

through the social conditioning to

28:36

which they're all subject. And the

28:38

other things that really fascinated me,

28:41

the attitudes that she has experienced in

28:43

some boys school settings. Clearly, not

28:45

all boys school settings when it comes

28:47

to her consent workshops. And I

28:49

can't help but wonder there is a correlation between that. And

28:52

the fifty six parliamentarians

28:54

that she referenced who have

28:57

outstanding accusations of sexual

28:59

assault standing against them. And I'm just

29:01

gonna leave that thought there for now.

29:07

Join me on the next episode of Raiser Up

29:09

when I will be with TikTok at sex educator

29:12

and author, Millie Evans. I think

29:14

what should be reassuring to parents is

29:16

that loads of evidence has

29:18

shown that young people who have

29:20

comprehensive, inclusive, positive

29:22

certification tend to delay their first

29:24

such experiences, and when they do have

29:26

their first such experiences, they are more likely to be positive and they are

29:28

more likely to be safe. If you do prepare

29:30

your young person for the future, it means

29:32

you're gonna give them the space actually

29:34

think about what they want

29:36

and actually look those things with a bit of

29:38

critical thought rather than rushing into

29:40

it. I'll see you And I think again one So

29:42

what's going through how successful we're giving isn't

29:44

as a hell of giving a love.

29:46

Ladies are up.