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0:54

The natural music of a spring

0:56

day in the Ashdown Forest.

0:59

Tom, can you identify the various

1:01

voices we heard there?

1:02

Yeah, we've got Lynettes in

1:04

the gorse behind us. And they've got this lovely

1:07

kind of syncopated jazzy jaunty

1:10

song which, on a hot sunny

1:12

day from the crackling gorse pods,

1:14

sounds, oh, makes me feel summery.

1:17

And then there was a skylark here a minute

1:19

ago but it's slightly distant. Those are the two main ones

1:21

that we can hear at the moment.

1:22

We've paused and opened, looks

1:25

like a sort of chalky path but it's sandy

1:27

actually, isn't it? White sandy path,

1:29

really wide with furrows

1:32

through it from the feet that have come by. Gorse

1:35

and heather around us and miles

1:38

and miles and miles of open sky,

1:40

open space, woodland.

1:43

Ashdown Forest isn't technically a forest, is

1:45

it? No, not in the sense of

1:47

us all thinking of forest being

1:49

woodland. Most of it, 60%

1:52

of it, is open heathland and that's what we're kind of

1:54

looking at over at the moment. So heather, gorse,

1:56

bracken, moorgrass and

1:59

then out into the distance.

1:59

since we've got the lovely rolling south downs

2:02

and on a clear day you can sometimes see all the way to

2:04

the sea. That's what

2:06

a lot of people come here for is that sense of openness

2:08

and expansiveness and just escape from

2:10

the from the everyday.

2:12

Tom Ford is a wildlife

2:15

guide and you live here you work

2:17

in the forest? I live here I'm trying to bring more

2:19

of my work back here now because this is where

2:21

I was born and I

2:23

had tussles with the rangers as a kid. We were

2:26

putting up big dens and they were helping us

2:28

take them all back down again but I was

2:30

also just remembering that I was really

2:32

lucky to have there was a

2:35

riding yard close to where I lived and

2:37

three or four of us you know aged 12 to 15 would

2:40

get on you know little barrel bellied Welsh mountain

2:43

ponies and hack out for half

2:45

a day and no parents involved

2:47

you know the odd road here and there to cross

2:49

but otherwise it was just miles of open

2:52

open tracks. Just to give you a clear idea

2:54

of exactly where we are Ashdown Forest is about 30

2:56

miles to the south of London it's

2:59

not that far off the m25 and

3:01

yet suddenly you are in this

3:03

real wonderful escapist

3:06

heaven and it is famous

3:10

for being the place where Winnie the Pooh

3:12

and Christopher Robin roamed because

3:14

A.A. Milne lived here. In fact

3:16

they played poo sticks didn't they?

3:17

Yeah poo bridge is a couple of

3:19

kilometres over that way and

3:22

is a real kind of pilgrimage and destination

3:24

for so many people every weekend. We're

3:26

on OS Explorer 135 which is Royal Tambridge,

3:29

Wales, East Grinstead, Haywood Teeth and

3:31

Crobra and Tom

3:33

is finding the grid reference. Lots

3:36

of car parks available you do pay

3:38

for parking and that money goes towards helping

3:41

maintain the forest and also

3:43

retain its status.

3:45

People think it's just a wide open space

3:47

that can take care of itself but actually there's a lot of

3:49

management work that goes into keeping it accessible,

3:51

keeping the car parks maintained and keeping it as open

3:54

Heathland.

3:54

While you look for the grid

3:56

reference I will give

3:59

everyone a weather update. it's a beautiful

4:01

day, there is a bit of chill in the breeze

4:03

but it's slightly overcast

4:05

but really light cloud and you

4:08

hear those birds singing and it just is

4:10

one of those days that makes you want to stand up

4:12

particularly with this view and sing. And

4:15

the reason that we've come here is that Eka

4:17

Morgan invited us. Eka

4:20

you got in touch and said

4:22

look Tom and I do this

4:24

podcast it's about Ashdown

4:26

Forest come and have a look for yourself

4:29

and I'm really glad I have because

4:30

I've never been to Ashdown Forest. Yeah

4:33

it's not a household name and yet

4:35

it's 30 miles as you said from London and

4:38

when I first came here I was actually in shock

4:40

I thought I'd been transported to

4:42

Scotland because I thought I was on some sort

4:44

of mountain pass and I could

4:46

see the north downs in one directions and south

4:49

downs and the other and Canny estate

4:51

agents in Crobor which is a town on the

4:53

edge of Ashdown Forest used to

4:55

describe it as Scotland in Sussex as

4:58

a way of luring the potential

5:00

house buyers

5:00

but that and

5:02

yeah the fact that it is this Heathland

5:06

which means it's got these really special

5:08

species and and

5:10

ten square miles of open access

5:13

land. And your background is

5:15

in sound so presumably

5:17

a

5:18

place has to sound right to you.

5:20

You know for some people I mean it genuinely some

5:22

people it's about sight for some it's about smell

5:25

feel but for you I'm guessing it it's

5:27

pretty important that I would say it's my first

5:30

sense and funny enough what

5:32

brought me here is I did a storytelling

5:35

course near about and all my life

5:37

I'd lived in cities and I had

5:39

hardly ever heard a tourney owl at night and

5:43

this tourney owl was like the call of the wild

5:45

you know they're not that scarce tourney owls

5:47

but it was

5:48

it just had this nourishing effect

5:50

on me and I realized that I wanted to

5:52

bring up my daughter in the countryside

5:54

not in a city and within two months

5:56

of hearing that tourney owl I'd moved to the

5:59

Ashdown Forest

5:59

The

6:02

grid reference for Holly's Car Park. So the grid reference

6:04

is... So the grid reference is TQ 461286.

6:09

And that's for Holly's Car Park where we started off.

6:12

Echo, tell us where we're going to walk today

6:14

and how long a route? Well, four miles,

6:17

which I worked out is something like 36

6:20

furlongs for you. I

6:22

might have that wrong actually, I've forgotten the... We're

6:25

walking down to the... Oh,

6:28

you know it! Oh, very impressive!

6:31

It's eight furlongs a mile. 32 furlongs.

6:35

And we're walking down towards

6:38

the Airmen's grave. Then we're looping

6:40

back and we go up to Friend's Car Park.

6:42

And then

6:44

we're going down to the Garden of

6:46

Eden waterfall, which

6:48

has some Winnie the Pooh connections. Yeah,

6:51

and I think you describe yourself as Tigger Claire.

6:54

Yes.

6:58

Or is that other people's description? No,

7:00

well, a bit of both endlessly

7:03

annoyingly energetic. So

7:06

we have 10 square miles of wooded

7:08

Heathland. Is that a thing? Well,

7:11

two thirds Heathland and

7:13

a third Woodland. And

7:16

this is one of the reasons

7:18

that we started the podcast, is

7:21

that a lot of the visitors, and there are now 1.5 million visitors,

7:24

so it's not a hidden gem

7:26

anymore, don't realise

7:28

that it's Heath. And with Heath

7:30

come protected species, like

7:32

the Dartford Warbler

7:34

and the Nightjar. And

7:36

so that's one of the messages

7:38

we want to get across to visitors, is this

7:40

is a fragile habitat. I mean, some describe

7:43

it as rarer than rainforest. Really? Yes. Well,

7:46

lowland Heathland, you could fit all

7:48

the Heathland of the UK into the Isle of Man

7:50

now. I've known people growing

7:53

up here, walk their dogs

7:55

every day here and not realise that it's a Heath. And

7:57

what was it originally, a hunting ground?

7:59

or how did it stay

8:02

protected? It's been through many

8:04

guises. I can give you a brief overview,

8:07

but the better person would be James. James

8:09

Adler is CEO of the Conservators

8:12

of Ashdown Forest. And

8:14

Carrie Dunbar also with us is lead warden

8:16

for Ashdown Forest. So James, I was

8:18

just asking a bit about the history

8:20

of Ashdown Forest. And

8:24

Eka says you're the man to tell me. So

8:27

Ashdown first gets mentioned in

8:29

the history books about 1100 when

8:31

the king at the time granted a road, the

8:34

first road across the forest to

8:37

a group of monks.

8:37

And the name comes up as Essendon, which

8:40

is the first mention of Ashdown in the history

8:42

books. And since then, we've

8:45

been around for a very long time. In fact, 2023 is the 750th anniversary

8:47

of rangers on the forest. And

8:52

they were here to secure

8:54

the forest. We had a 23 mile long

8:57

fence around the outside, which was called

8:58

the pale. And that secured the

9:01

deer really within the middle of the

9:03

forest for the ability in

9:05

the royals to hunt.

9:07

And all of our communities now

9:10

mark where the gates were going in and out

9:12

of that 23 mile long fence.

9:14

But really what's been happening

9:17

for really since the Norman times is

9:20

conflicts between landowner and those who

9:22

want to use the land, either for farming or their own activities.

9:26

We're in a den of smuggling at

9:28

the moment as well. Nearly all of the

9:30

local pubs and everything else were all involved

9:32

in smuggling. Smuggling what? Oh,

9:35

huge amounts of things. From contraband, you

9:37

know, your normal things that you would smuggle,

9:39

up to cannon. And indeed they

9:41

were making cannon on the forest. And there's

9:43

a joke that the cannon was so good and

9:45

the smuggling was so good that when the French

9:48

and English ships were firing on each other, they

9:50

were both firing English cannon. So they were

9:52

actually smuggling cannon off the forest into France.

9:55

Gosh! I know. It's quite

9:57

remarkable, isn't it? During Elizabethan

9:59

times,

9:59

The forest got its ruling

10:02

family, which was the Sackville family, who

10:04

became the Earls and Dukes

10:06

of Dorset. And they had a very

10:08

long history with the forest, from Elizabethan

10:11

times all the way through to 1988, when the forest

10:13

got sold to the County Council. And

10:15

generation after generation was looking after

10:17

the forest and managing it.

10:20

Just paused here because this looks like

10:22

a young oak tree between,

10:25

I guess, about four or five

10:27

silver birch trees around it. Yeah,

10:29

a young oak tree just springing up, with

10:32

the cops of silver birch behind it. This

10:35

tree that we're just walking up to is something very

10:37

different. So this

10:39

marks the spot where a Wellington

10:42

bomber crashed landwood in July 1941. This

10:45

is referred to as the Airman's grave. There

10:47

are no burials here, but this is indeed marked

10:50

the spot of where the bomber crashed, killing

10:53

the

10:53

entire crew. There were six of

10:55

them on board, young men all in their early twenties.

10:58

He was in 1924. Absolutely. Sergeant

11:00

Sutton, whose family was

11:02

the one who designated the memorial. Unfortunately,

11:05

his mother had lost her other young son in a motorbike

11:07

accident just before the war. And so it was

11:09

absolutely devastated clearly when she lost her

11:11

other son. So it gave some money to the

11:13

conservators, who had been around since 1885,

11:16

to create this memorial that we see today.

11:19

And what's lovely is that every Remembrance

11:21

Sunday, all of the local

11:23

community come together here for an impromptu

11:25

remembrance service. So the

11:27

local vicar comes from the nearby church, and

11:30

we can have up to two or three thousand people who

11:32

just arrive here organically, including

11:35

a whole load of riders

11:36

who come in full ceremonial dress,

11:38

and they just come and they pause. Runners groups

11:41

come, dog walkers come, and just everyone

11:43

just draws together. So we

11:45

put on Radio 4 over

11:47

the loudspeaker, we listen to the service, we

11:49

stop to observe, we have a bugula,

11:52

and it just is a beautiful

11:54

place to stop and remember for a moment. If

11:59

you think about it,

11:59

what A.A. Milne and E.H. Shepard would have experienced

12:02

when they were here a hundred years ago in 2026 is

12:05

the centenary of the first book. Think

12:07

about the birdsong they would have heard. We would have been

12:09

being attacked by insects at the moment. You

12:12

know, a huge amounts of wildlife through the local

12:14

area and unfortunately so much of it has

12:16

gone. Our job is

12:19

to put wildlife back into the landscape

12:21

and allow it to recover naturally so

12:23

it teams with wildlife. At the same time, you

12:25

know, you've seen the smiling faces of the people who have just walked past,

12:28

give people the most incredible experience

12:29

and reconnect them back to wildlife

12:32

and nature. We've dropped

12:35

down into almost like

12:37

a roundabout of paths coming

12:40

in towards a stream and

12:43

it's brown in colour,

12:44

almost rusty looking. That's

12:46

the iron in the soil. It's what the forest was used for for

12:49

hundreds and hundreds of years. You know, the second ever

12:51

blast furnace in the world was on Ashdown

12:53

Forest and they were extracting the iron. It's

12:56

one of the reasons it's felt that the Romans invaded was

12:58

to take advantage of our precious metals. Tom's

13:01

down in his haunches. What have we found?

13:03

I am looking at something that looks

13:05

like a wasp but is a bee. But

13:08

it's not only ordinary bee, it's a cuckoo bee. And

13:11

it's here because on these bare scoured

13:14

patches of

13:14

soil here are some solitary bees,

13:17

probably andrenal mining bees. It's

13:19

right just gone behind you there. But

13:21

don't worry, it won't sting you. And this cuckoo

13:23

bee is looking to offload

13:26

some of its eggs at the entrance

13:28

of the mining bees and

13:30

then those eggs

13:32

will then hatch and feed on the young

13:35

mining bees that are inside there for

13:38

a gory parasitoid life

13:41

cycle. It's a nice

13:43

little shelter spot. There's lots of little

13:44

dramas playing out. James

13:47

picked up a rock. So that's the iron

13:49

that you can see actually in the soil. So this is the ironstone.

13:52

So this is a layer that was set down

13:54

underneath seas in the past. And if you feel it, it's

13:56

actually really surprisingly heavy. It's actually

13:58

the iron that's there in the source of the oil.

13:59

the stone is actually rusty, it's oxidised.

14:03

Which way are we heading? This way.

14:06

Carrie Dunbar is the final member

14:08

of our quartet, with binoculars

14:11

round your neck, and you're a warden here. Yeah,

14:13

I'm the lead warden here. At

14:15

the moment I'm the only warden there, so I'm just leading

14:17

myself.

14:18

And motivating

14:20

yourself? Yes, yes. Quite a few

14:22

people sent me the job advert and

14:24

said, this is you, clearly. So, yeah,

14:27

I applied and then was very pleased to

14:30

get it. And I started in December, so I've not been here

14:32

long at all. Essentially, it's

14:34

about raising awareness of

14:37

the birds that give the forest its protected status.

14:40

So the night jower and the dark of Warbler, and

14:42

why the forest is here, and it's important

14:44

that they remain here. So it's

14:46

really lovely, actually, I'm kind of the guardian of the birds.

14:49

That's how

14:49

I sort of see myself. I

14:51

was hearing from Eka that 60% of

14:54

the visitors to Ashsham

14:56

Forest have dogs. And if

14:58

you've got ground nesting birds like a skylock, for

15:00

example, dog owners need to understand

15:03

what they can do to help. Yeah.

15:06

So it was 60% in a survey

15:08

in 2021, so it could

15:10

be more than that now. But yeah, really,

15:13

we ask people to keep their paws on the

15:15

paths. And what about the

15:18

perennial problem of poo? Ah,

15:20

yes. When I took this job on, poo

15:24

hadn't even entered my mind. Other than

15:26

we need the poo. Well, of course. Yeah, yeah.

15:28

You know, I knew poo was gross. But

15:31

yes, it's actually really interesting.

15:34

And the more I look into it, the more I

15:36

find out about the effects that dog poo can

15:38

have on, well, all environments,

15:40

but specifically heathland, because it's a

15:43

really low nutrient habitat.

15:46

And dog poo's got a lot of nutrients in it. So

15:49

if you're leaving your dog poo around, it's

15:52

fertilising the soil. You see, when you

15:54

say that, that makes it sound like it's a good thing. Ah,

15:57

exactly. Thanks. Yeah, no, it's not a good thing.

15:59

It's a very bad thing. Yeah, the heathland's

16:02

quite a sensitive habitat. It needs

16:04

low nutrient soil, so we don't

16:06

want any more fertiliser on it. We're just asking

16:08

people to pick their poo up and take it away. Which

16:10

I think... I haven't seen any bins. No,

16:13

there aren't any bins. And I think

16:15

that, you know, that contributes maybe

16:18

to why people don't take their poo away. They think

16:20

it's a wild, open

16:22

area and the poo is natural and

16:25

it will biodegrade, but it will biodegrade

16:27

and then it will feed the grasses and then eventually,

16:30

if that carried on, we wouldn't have any heathland

16:32

and then we'd lose the protected status and

16:35

we'd lose Eshna first.

16:36

Got a little problem for you here,

16:38

Claire. Any of you? It's quite

16:40

small. It's barely...

16:43

It's got big jewels. OK. It's one

16:45

of its names, part of its name is a tiger. But

16:48

I've been holding it for a couple of seconds here. It's

16:50

green. It is bright green. Yeah.

16:53

And then almost this kind of lovely shiny violet

16:55

colour underneath. And pop

16:58

it on your hand and it's probably going to fly away straight away. Oh,

17:00

all the way now. It's on the ground.

17:01

So what is it? The tiger beetle? It is.

17:04

It's the green tiger beetle. And

17:07

it's quick. They're fast. And it looks

17:09

like a miniature armadillo. Yeah, exactly.

17:12

I mean, proper miniature. I mean, it's no

17:14

bigger than your fingernail. Yeah, massive

17:16

eyes, massive jaws. A fierce predator of

17:18

the of the heathland floor. There

17:20

you are. I've had a narrow brush with a tiger. When

17:23

you have the... When you look at the illustrations in the Winnie

17:25

the Pooh books from Shepherd's Drums, he was drawing

17:27

exactly things like this. He was drawing from life.

17:30

So there's pictures of tiger beetles and

17:32

damselflies, dragonflies, birds, rabbits

17:35

that they were here on site and they were seeing. The

17:38

sad thing for us as land managers is now looking at those pictures

17:40

and seeing that even the common species have

17:42

disappeared. I think what's really encouraging is

17:45

the fact that, you know, the

17:47

kids now, so 10, 11 year

17:49

old children, are fully aware

17:52

of what needs to be

17:54

done and the urgency

17:56

of doing it. I was listening

17:58

to the second episode.

17:59

of your podcast and Tom

18:02

is it your children who are on it and

18:05

their excitement at they

18:07

were toad spotting and but

18:09

that the energy in their voices

18:11

and that and was it at dusk

18:12

that you yeah we were actually out not far from

18:15

here when we're going to finish up on our walk at Ellison's pond

18:17

and it gets a lot of dogs

18:19

taking a splash in there and a lot of disturbance being

18:22

so close to a car park and we came here on the chance

18:24

the right time of year that it would be the site of a mass spawning

18:26

event and we had frogs and toes just going for it

18:29

and you know take kids out for a night walk

18:31

in you know in the pitch dark that's one thing

18:33

they're getting excited about and then to the backdrop

18:35

of lots of loved-up frogs

18:37

and toes you can't go wrong we can't

18:40

be the old bulls no I think

18:42

we feel like

18:42

the old bulls who get excited about

18:45

a little tiger beetle or something it

18:47

shouldn't be unusual that a child

18:50

loves nature or enjoys being out

18:52

in the countryside it should be the normal

18:57

so this habitat that we're in now is what's really

18:59

really good for dart for booblers they're one of the two

19:01

bird species that gives us our international present

19:03

and designation so we're a special protection area

19:06

for our birds

19:08

where are we

19:10

looking well look court

19:12

jester oh yeah do you see

19:14

they're flying off the

19:17

header hasn't come out yet so everything else looks

19:19

a bit bad and we can hear it gosh

19:22

that's very unusual cause it

19:23

is that's it's song and it doesn't

19:25

compare with a skylark or a

19:27

blackbird it's kind of quite

19:30

an edgy chattery song

19:32

there goes it's up in flight now oh yeah oh it's tiny it's

19:34

tiny yeah but quite long-tailed so

19:37

no bigger than a actually smaller than a robin smaller

19:39

than a robin quite long tail

19:41

and with a bronzy colored reddish

19:43

chest yeah it's kind of reddish yeah reddish

19:46

reddish purplish oh yeah thanks

19:51

oh yes gosh I really see

19:53

the length of that tail what

19:57

a lovely place to be with

20:00

you. Yeah we've got great conditions. You're

20:03

listening to ramblings on BBC Radio 4 and BBC Sounds.

20:05

I'm in Ashdown Forest in East Sussex

20:08

soaking

20:10

up the joy of this place. We're

20:14

at Chivtrav calling as well here Tom, haven't we? Yeah I know

20:16

well I was just thinking about this cult here. They

20:19

like pine trees and we haven't seen many pine

20:21

trees and then I knew there was a pine tree coming

20:23

because I could hear it going...

20:29

That's me doing a cult here and we'll find out whether

20:31

it's still here. It might answer back. I've

20:34

got to be very sensitive to doing this playing or

20:37

copying bird sounds at this time of year because they're all breeding

20:41

and they need to be focusing on raising young

20:43

rather than fighting off a

20:45

stranger who's copying their noise but see

20:48

if it tries. I'll try it again.

20:54

Oh there it is perfect.

20:57

That's a cult tip. Back

21:00

in at Scott's pine, actually standing underneath. There

21:06

he is, he's come to have a look now. It's

21:10

a bit like a great tip but smaller and

21:12

has a soft spot for pine trees and

21:15

this is the territorial male going oi

21:18

this is my spot. Yeah get

21:20

lost Dr Zoom. Exactly.

21:26

We've paused

21:28

at the edge of a have heard of cattle

21:31

some of them very young. A couple of months

21:33

old. Yeah healthy looking

21:35

calves those.

21:36

Absolutely and these are these are all commoners livestock

21:38

so that these belong to a commoner who remembers buying

21:41

his first sheep when he was seven

21:43

years old and has farmed on the forest

21:45

for his entire life. He remembers seeing the

21:47

bombers crash during the second world war. He's

21:49

been around that long here and these are his livestock

21:52

he's been doing this for all of that time

21:54

and generations of his family beforehand.

21:56

And this is a particular breed to the

21:58

Ashdown forest. There are particular

21:59

breed that he has bred over his life, so

22:02

he has mixed a few different breeds together of

22:05

beef cattle and you can see that they're out here.

22:07

They're particularly eating grass, that's what the cattle

22:09

of his do. They're here to eat the rough grass, grasses,

22:12

the coarse grasses and what they do is bear

22:14

long tongue, they wrap that around the grass and they

22:16

rip it which opens up the sward for other

22:19

rare species of plant. So they're brilliant

22:21

on heathland environments.

22:22

These animals and sheep

22:25

and indeed ponies is how this landscape

22:27

has been crafted for thousands of years. There?

22:37

There too? Blackwing

22:41

versus crow. This is something

22:43

very very special to see. Oh

22:45

that's a spine tingling moment for me. I

22:48

suspect you James. Are

22:50

they very rare? Yep I

22:53

like to say it's rare as rocking the horse poo on the Ashtown

22:55

Forest. But it speaks to

22:57

me of the management of the forest

23:00

coming good. Dropping

23:03

down towards this waterfall, it's

23:06

only a small drop of water here but you

23:08

can still hear the energy

23:10

of

23:10

it. And I love

23:12

the idea that Christopher Robin was here with

23:15

his feet hanging over the edge you know

23:17

a hundred years ago in a different time in a different

23:19

world no aeroplanes very few

23:21

cars not as many just

23:23

people just sitting here

23:25

just taking it in and playing. Yeah we're

23:27

very close to those places from the books like the

23:30

North Pole the Enchanted Place

23:32

you know all of these different things that here in

23:34

this landscape. We've

23:38

nearly completed our circle leaving behind

23:40

the waterfall in the area known as the Garden of Eden

23:43

I can see why. And

23:45

Tom's departed to go and teach his

23:47

kids and other people's kids. So

23:50

James and Carrie and Eka and I are walking

23:52

this last bit now in really warm sunshine.

23:55

James just is a you know final thought

23:57

it's a big anniversary coming up isn't it?

23:59

forest. It is indeed it's the centenary

24:02

of Winnie the Pooh in 2026. We're very excited

24:05

about exploring that and bringing people here

24:08

and rebuilding that love

24:10

for those sets of stories because at their absolute heart

24:12

there's so much in there about being out in the countryside

24:15

taking great pleasure from it, play and

24:17

just the mental health elements that come with it as

24:19

well.

24:21

Well good luck with those celebrations and

24:23

thank you for a really lovely day.

24:26

Thank you so much it's been a delight to have

24:28

you. Your Tigger, your

24:30

Tigger energy. Just

24:33

a reminder that not only obviously can you listen to

24:35

all of the programs on BBC Sounds you can also

24:37

follow us on Instagram

24:38

so if you want photos from any of the

24:41

any of the walks that we've been on have a look

24:43

see what the guests look like see if I've done an alright

24:45

job at describing the landscape then

24:47

follow us on Instagram at BBC Ramblings.