0:00

This is the BBC. This

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outside the UK.

0:07

BBC Sounds.

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Music, radio, podcasts. I

0:13

think today's quite chilly, but three

0:16

of the group that I'm walking with are in shorts, so I'm

0:18

just clearly feeling the cold a bit more than

0:20

they are. I have joined a group

0:23

who are planning a trek to Kilimanjaro,

0:26

and this is part of their training

0:28

regime because today we're going

0:30

to climb the Matterhorn of the

0:33

Peak District.

0:33

We had a letter

0:36

from Sean, Sean Milner, and Sean got in touch

0:38

to say, we're going to do this trek

0:40

with my dad, Frank. And Frank, how

0:42

old will you be when you climb Kilimanjaro?

0:45

I'll be on the summit on my 82nd birthday. So

0:48

this has been planned to celebrate your birthday? Yes.

0:51

I didn't tell the family I was doing it until eventually

0:53

I had to tell them, and I told Sean,

0:55

he said, oh, I want to come with you. And

0:58

it finished up, he's coming with me, another son's

1:00

coming with me, and two grandsons are coming with me. So there'll

1:02

be three generations of the Milner family?

1:05

Yes. And also, introduce me to everyone

1:07

else who's with us, because are they all coming on the trek

1:09

as well? Not all, there's only Trevor not coming on

1:11

the trek. He's coming because he's a Rotarian

1:13

with me and we do quite a lot together. But we've got Alex,

1:16

and we've got Jane. She's

1:19

actually going on the heart route in the Alps

1:22

and arriving back five days before Kilimanjaro,

1:24

just so she can do it. Oh,

1:26

wow. My husband wants to just get rid of

1:28

me for a bit longer, that's all. He said, yes,

1:30

you can do both of them, off you go. Well,

1:32

I think there's an active choice on your part there as well.

1:36

You said, yes, I'll do both of them back to back, thanks

1:38

very much.

1:39

Love you more when I don't see you, that kind of thing. Kilimanjaro

1:44

itself is in Tanzania, it's near the border with

1:46

Kenya. It's the largest freestanding

1:48

mountain in the world, i.e. not being

1:50

part of a range. Why

1:53

did Kilimanjaro have the

1:55

magnetism? I've

1:57

been a mountaineer all my life, but I

1:59

can't quite get it.

3:59

White Peak area and

4:02

we started just outside

4:05

the Leathers Smithey pub in Langney

4:07

which is grid reference SJ 952

4:10

715. Such good walking around here. I mean

4:13

you've

4:18

got masses of options and

4:20

I see there's a boundary route you can do

4:22

around the Peak District. Yes. Have

4:25

you done it Frank? Yes. Barely

4:27

in mind that well they are now. My fitness was when

4:29

I was in my 20s 30s 40s and 50s and even

4:32

60s. And then what happened?

4:36

I got cancer at 70. And what

4:38

was it? Prostate? Prostate. But they wouldn't

4:41

operate on me because I was too old and when

4:43

I had an argument with the surgeon it was

4:46

because if the operation

4:48

wouldn't extend your life beyond the radio or chemotherapy

4:51

there

4:51

was no point in operating. I think it's

4:53

all to do with cost and

4:55

I argued with him and I said how do you know that?

4:58

And I have a graph that shows what

5:00

happens to you under the ages. So I

5:02

said you're looking at numbers not people. And

5:06

with the argument I said if you put

5:08

two people side by side it was 70, one

5:10

could be 60, one could be 80. Yep.

5:12

I'm not the 60 year old, I'm the 50 year old. And

5:15

I've had a long conversation with my lifestyle.

5:17

He agreed. So I said operate.

5:20

He said I can't.

5:21

Why not? Because

5:24

the medical team that decided on the operations had

5:26

said no. So I said well tell them

5:28

they're wrong. He said I can't do that.

5:31

I said why not? I mean you got the tongue in your head. And

5:34

the conversation went like that. And

5:36

eventually agreed to try and tell them.

5:40

And eventually came back to me after speaking

5:42

with them and said they're good

5:44

news and bad news. The bad news

5:46

was they wouldn't operate. So I said

5:49

what's the good news then? The good

5:51

news

5:51

is if another surgeon says it's worthwhile they'll

5:53

allow it. So they're out to go see another

5:55

surgeon. And all this takes months

5:58

and months.

5:59

arguing for your life

6:01

yes so I went to see the next

6:03

surgeon I'm thinking

6:05

I'm getting nowhere here he was

6:07

just talking I was listening so in the

6:09

middle of it I said to him how old are

6:11

you he said I'm 51 why I said

6:14

I'll race you 51 miles over the fellas I'm

6:17

gonna beat you you're the 70 year old I'm the 51 year

6:20

old and he looked at me and he said you're

6:22

serious aren't you I said

6:24

to throw I am I'll operate

6:28

I think I permission and

6:30

it was two years after diagnosis to

6:32

the operation and the ram it's

6:35

ten years on from when it started and

6:37

when it started they

6:39

told me I might have five years so

6:44

the trek to Kilimanjaro

6:47

is about so much more than

6:49

just celebrating your birthday this

6:52

is this

6:52

is a sort of plant your flag for

6:54

life most of them don't believe I'll do it is

6:58

that true Trevor do you think you make

7:00

it yeah I'm sure you'll make it that's

7:02

just do Frank is and you weren't tempted

7:04

to join them I was tempted yes

7:07

I've had a couple of our benches with Frank and maybe

7:11

maybe a third one might be one too many all right

7:14

what are the adventures you've done with them before well

7:16

we did a 2400 kilometer

7:20

motorcycle ride around India

7:23

and I was Frank's pillion that was quite

7:25

an adventure but as a pillion again

7:28

wouldn't do it again because

7:31

my anatomy is

7:33

not suitable for pillion riding

7:35

on that kind of bike you

7:38

hear the birds singing above us we've just come on

7:40

the edge of a pine forest had

7:42

a steady climb at the beginning

7:44

still on this wide gravel track making

7:47

our way gently upwards

7:48

and we're going at a very steady

7:50

pace but unconscious of ground

7:52

that we're covering because we're chasing along

7:55

and Alex maybe that will be the key to cracking

7:57

it on Kilimanjaro that Frank's got so

7:59

stories, just tap

8:02

into another one and you'll be another thousand

8:04

feet out without realizing. What we haven't

8:06

touched on yet is the number of accidents Frank

8:09

has had on these sorts of adventures and

8:11

if we do get onto that topic it will fill

8:14

the entire walk. You're asking

8:16

if Frank would make it and there's

8:18

no doubt he'll make it to the top of the

8:20

mountain and back again. He just doesn't

8:22

have something in his head that says

8:24

no and you know

8:27

we went out maybe six or seven

8:29

years ago and Frank was in his late 70s and we

8:32

went through a technical rock climb in the Lake Districts.

8:34

We climbed a crag called the Dow Crag

8:38

which is a difficult climb. It's 400 feet

8:40

or so vertical straight up

8:42

a rock face. Frank's got

8:44

an injury in his right hand from a bad

8:47

car crash that he had so he

8:49

doesn't have very good mobility in his hand. We

8:52

were about halfway up the climb and

8:55

there was an overhang and we just couldn't get Frank

8:57

over it. He couldn't move his hand in the right direction

9:00

to overcome it so he

9:02

sort of looked at each other and said what are we gonna do now

9:04

Frank? We can't go up and Frank said

9:06

well I'll just have to go down. Quick as that

9:08

he rigged an ab sail and off he went

9:11

ziplined down off the rock and you

9:13

think how many 70 year

9:15

olds can you take climbing that will just

9:18

rig an ab sail halfway up a hill and

9:20

off he goes. So yeah

9:23

there's no doubt he'll get to the top of Kilimanjaro.

9:25

I don't think it'll be easy for any of us but I'm sure

9:27

sure he'll make it. And

9:29

obviously one of the major problems with Kilimanjaro

9:32

that a lot of people have is is altitude sickness

9:35

and sometimes it hits fitter people doesn't it

9:37

worse than less people. I was going

9:39

to say the roots that we chose

9:42

to do is called the the wrong guy

9:45

route which is a longer

9:48

climb up so it gives us an

9:51

extra couple of days to acclimatise. Most

9:53

people who go to do it will

9:55

do it in five days including

9:58

coming down we're doing it in

9:59

But yes,

10:02

I've heard people who think they're fit and

10:05

say, oh, it won't affect me because I'm fit. They'll

10:08

go too quickly and that's why

10:10

it'll affect them. So the key is actually to

10:12

go slowly.

10:14

The sound in this forest, and this

10:16

is Macclesfield Forest, is

10:19

extraordinary because there's a dog barking and it may

10:21

be a mile away, but it's reverberating

10:24

off the trees

10:27

and we can hear it like it's right next to us. It's

10:31

a cross, now it's topspin anyway. Give

10:34

it a chance. We've

10:38

looked at all different things

10:40

that can help alleviate

10:43

the altitude sickness and a

10:46

lot of the natural remedies, it's like,

10:48

you know, garlic, onions, things

10:50

that will actually open up your airways and

10:53

some quite interesting mornings that

10:55

you wouldn't necessarily think of. What?

10:59

No, I wasn't expecting you to say that.

11:04

We haven't tested it, but certainly the

11:08

reports are because obviously it increases

11:10

the blood flow and therefore the oxygen

11:12

gets around the body much

11:14

easier. So

11:17

yeah, that was an interesting one. We

11:19

haven't had a volunteer yet to try

11:22

it out when we go.

11:24

In the guiding that you've

11:26

done, and also Frank, your experience with the Scouts,

11:29

would you say that attitude

11:33

is as important or more important than

11:36

physical fitness?

11:37

When I've taken groups out on

11:40

long expeditions and

11:43

the second we do it, I say

11:45

you don't do it in your legs, you do it in your head,

11:47

and it's your head that gets you

11:49

through. It's easy to say, I

11:51

can't go any further. That's a lie.

11:54

I can always go further. It should

11:56

happen the guts to do it.

11:59

It's all shown. Definitely, definitely.

12:05

When you're doing a challenge like this, Jane, is

12:08

it important to you to take

12:10

it all in

12:11

or do you just want to get to the summit?

12:14

Personally, I love taking it all

12:16

in. I've spotted some blue tits

12:18

earlier on on this walk, just after

12:20

you mentioned the birds song.

12:23

And I like to look at the scenery

12:26

and see what's around me, see what animals there

12:28

are. But I suppose

12:30

everybody's walking journey is different. And for

12:32

some people, it's more important

12:34

getting to the top. And you mentioned earlier

12:37

that you're still doing back-to-back mountaineering

12:40

expeditions. So basically,

12:42

my husband and I planned to do the haute route

12:44

this summer. And he's

12:48

a dentist and he was thinking,

12:50

oh, I've got to wait till I retire to do all these

12:53

things. And I said, no, you don't.

12:55

So let's book two weeks off and go

12:57

and do it. So I planned the haute route and

13:00

then Frank rang and said,

13:02

would you like to come up and kill an Anjara with us?

13:05

And I initially said no. And

13:08

then that night, Phil and I, over a glass of wine,

13:11

said, Phil was like, go

13:12

on, go and do it. You don't get these opportunities

13:15

every day. Go and do it. So

13:17

I just thought, you know what? I'm

13:20

going to do it. Just explain the haute

13:22

route is how long and not, and

13:24

where does it take you? Right, the haute route

13:26

goes from Chamonix

13:29

to Zermatt. And

13:31

we're taking quite

13:33

a long time over it. We're going to be there for 15 days. But

13:37

we are taking everything with us ourselves

13:39

on this one. So we're not going

13:41

to be having

13:42

someone else to carry the kit. But

13:44

it's supposed to be absolutely beautiful. We've

13:47

just always wanted to do a mountain route like that. Normally,

13:50

my walk-ins in the lake district, so

13:54

this is a whole step up for me. But

13:56

hopefully, it'll be a really good altitude

13:59

training for going to the lake.

13:59

up Killie five days later.

14:03

We

14:06

stop to talk to a man and his dog who

14:09

comes up here every day and I notice

14:11

Sean went off to take a phone call and now he's

14:13

running back. Frank what's happening?

14:15

There's somebody from the Kilimanjaro

14:18

trip that has arrived to come with us and they were late

14:20

so they rang him and told him he said I'll come back and vet

14:22

you.

14:24

So they'll catch up with us at some point. Oh yes.

14:26

We'll take it steady. Look

14:32

at that we've just come off the track and

14:34

we've got a view now across the Peak District actually

14:36

we can see down to where we started. We'll

14:39

probably see Sean in a minute turning around and sprinting

14:41

back again but we can see the

14:43

bare curving hills and

14:46

then swathes of forest here that have been cut

14:48

down and then it changes

14:50

the landscape changes again and you've got more deciduous

14:52

woodland on that ridge there

14:56

but there's a vastness to it that feeling

14:59

of

14:59

that you could walk four weeks here

15:01

and it would look different every day

15:04

and the light is different and there was a shaft

15:06

of sun do you see just on that field over there that's

15:09

lightening it and makes it

15:11

glow. Frank's

15:13

got his map out in his compass.

15:15

Sean gave me the map and says can you read

15:17

the map and tells you where we're going to go.

15:19

I was just checking that the track was going

15:21

on with the light direction. And also

15:23

I love that you've got an old-fashioned

15:24

compass so I quite often use the one on my

15:27

phone but we're going to be essentially

15:29

be heading we

15:31

are going to be heading say

15:34

that hang on one second we're

15:36

going to be heading east. That's

15:39

heading east. Yeah but we're going to

15:41

be going east.

15:46

That's him running army

15:48

training never leaves you he looks like a captain.

15:52

You can hear the skylarks around us skitties

15:55

skitties is that a Yorkshire word? I think it is

15:58

skitties for skylarks. Oh

16:03

the sun's just come out look just through

16:05

the clouds. What

16:08

a day, what a day. We

16:11

didn't want to lose you Sean but

16:14

we did expect a little sprint for the line Sean.

16:18

He's not being baited is he? No, no. Is

16:23

that right? That's good training see. Yeah.

16:25

You needed that bit of extra. Karen

16:28

was a last-minute decision

16:30

to come on the walk today. Benji and

16:32

Shep. Don't

16:35

worry. Hi there. Hello

16:38

I'm Claire. Do you don't want to shake my hand? No. You've

16:40

got dog food bags already. I don't know these guys

16:43

either but hello.

16:46

You've met my dog before I

16:49

think. I think we've met on the TV. On Zoom.

16:52

So Karen is coming to Kilimanjaro with

16:54

us as well. Was it this weekend

16:57

you just done the

16:57

three peaks? The week before

16:59

yeah. Sorry my dog's

17:01

just jutting. And they're both collies.

17:04

Both collies. We're

17:07

listening to ramblings on Radio 4 and BBC Sands

17:10

walking with Frank and Sean Milner

17:12

and their mates who are going to join them,

17:14

most of them are going to join them on a trek later

17:16

this year to Kilimanjaro and we are

17:19

in training because we are climbing to the

17:21

summit of the Matterhorn of

17:23

the Peak District which is

17:25

shuttling slow but you are now

17:27

showing me Sean

17:28

a picture of the Matterhorn. No no

17:30

that's shuttling slow. No it's not. And

17:35

the Matterhorn has got a much pointier top

17:37

to it and a sort of cheese grater siding

17:40

whereas I have to say shuttling slow looks

17:42

more like a fairy cake.

17:43

Yeah well you've got to imagine squashing

17:45

that about 75% and then it's

17:47

identical. Apart from the snow and the

17:49

rock.

17:52

What I like is that it has got

17:54

a clear pathway all the way to the

17:56

top. This

18:01

is going to be an interesting challenge

18:03

for the dogs because we've got to

18:05

a style which is great big

18:07

stone slabs coming out from the side of the

18:09

wall and then up and through a little gate but

18:12

there are gaps between these and it's a good

18:15

sort of eight feet up. Oh

18:18

well done Benji! Well

18:21

done Benji! They

18:23

did that in no time at all. That

18:25

was easy. Yeah beat that Frank.

18:29

I don't know what I thought I did

18:32

think it would be quite so easy. Oh

18:38

yeah. Oh

18:41

mate. Got to the top

18:45

to find there's a little

18:47

one here. Oh how

18:49

old? Two years old.

18:52

How did you get up here? Did

18:55

you walk it? Did

18:57

you?

18:58

So I think we've got a bit of history here because

19:01

that's got to be one of the youngest climbers

19:05

of this hill and Frank

19:08

he's going to climb Kilimanjaro on his 82nd

19:10

birthday will be one of the oldest

19:12

to do that. Oh he's a

19:14

long Kilimanjaro.

19:14

He's got my legs. I

19:18

only have six to ten cocks in them. Oh

19:20

do you in your lungs? Why what happened?

19:23

I let him crush. A lot of

19:25

times. Of course

19:27

you have. I'll

19:29

say since you found my chest. What happened?

19:33

What car accident?

19:35

So the debate

19:37

all the way up was what is this? Oh

19:40

yeah that. Which is now it's

19:42

Croca Hill.

19:43

Croca, Croca Hill? Croca

19:45

I think. Directly ahead of us

19:47

we've got Oliver Hill and Ramshaw

19:50

Rocks and Roach End and Drystone

19:52

Edge and that tells

19:55

you doesn't it? Benji

19:57

come away.

20:02

Coming down from the summit now

20:04

and I always find it more difficult

20:06

coming down. They say as

20:08

well the descent from Kilimanjaro is

20:11

really really difficult.

20:11

I think at the top

20:14

there's a bit of a scree slope so

20:17

the rock isn't as steady when you're coming down

20:20

so you need that extra stability with

20:22

the poles because obviously that's where you

20:24

can go over when you're ankle and you don't want to be doing that

20:26

when you're just shy of 6,000 metres up. The

20:29

aim is to get everyone up and everyone back.

20:32

I'm glad to hear that. Don't

20:34

want to leave you up there. Well I've had my fair share

20:37

of not getting down. Actually

20:39

I've always got down.

20:40

Yeah now you've been to the Himalayas

20:42

haven't you? Yes. What was your experience

20:45

like there? We were on a trekking

20:47

peak expedition. We weren't on a real climbing

20:50

run and we were climbing over a glacier

20:52

and we were at the top of the glacier and somebody

20:55

shouted below. And when you

20:57

hear that word below in the mountains you know there's rocks

20:59

coming. And I looked up and there's a big rock

21:01

coming straight towards me and I dived to one side and

21:04

having a 50 pound pack on me back I

21:07

was not in balance and I hit the rocks below

21:09

and I don't know what happened to me because when I woke

21:11

up they lifted me out. They

21:13

actually thought they were lifting a dead body out and

21:16

it turned out I had a fracture skull and me scalper

21:18

bead torn off. And

21:20

they were actually building a stretcher to carry me out and

21:23

I said no I'll be able to walk, put

21:25

a safety rope around me and I had a shurper on either

21:28

side and they took me up to the

21:31

overnight camp which they did in about

21:33

half an hour and it took me two and a half. The

21:35

following morning they put me boots on, gave me some porridge

21:38

and we set off again. And we were

21:40

in a storm all the time and eventually

21:42

we got down the other side

21:43

and on an ice

21:45

gully which they climbed down they had to lower me down

21:48

and had an overnight camp and

21:50

the following morning the helicopter came from the army

21:52

camp near the Tibetan border and took me down

21:54

to Kathmandu and

21:58

I went into an American clinic. which

22:00

was spotless and

22:02

I was about six hours laid

22:04

down while they straightened me scalp out

22:07

and sewed it all together again and bandaged me up and

22:10

then they stripped me off to find out what other damage had

22:12

done and apart from bruising and cuts

22:15

I just got a broken arm. That's

22:17

a bag. Again.

22:19

Well you say again

22:21

it does strike me listening to just

22:24

spending half a day with you that

22:26

you are the man with nine lives.

22:27

The family say

22:29

I'm on my second cat. I

22:31

think you are. What

22:34

I remember from that story, something

22:37

that my dad didn't say, which was

22:40

he was complaining of having a bad

22:42

headache. Now as

22:45

you might imagine saying well of course you've

22:47

got a bad headache you've just been scalped

22:49

in a rockfall. What they

22:51

didn't realize until they got to the American hospital

22:54

that when they'd done the bandaging up they'd

22:56

bandaged his ear folded over

22:58

and cut off the blood circulation

23:01

to his ear and so he lost

23:03

the top of his ear as well and

23:05

it was that. It was a side

23:07

of the other horse. Because you covered

23:09

by a hat so I hadn't noticed. It's

23:11

just a little bit. Oh yeah. It's gone out. Oh

23:13

I see it's your left ear. Yeah a little indentation

23:16

there.

23:19

It's a great walk. Sun's

23:22

come out now really warm. You guys in your

23:24

shorts. They're getting from the shorts.

23:27

Yes. So I think

23:29

we've done about seven miles and

23:32

what I like about that walk is

23:35

I don't feel exhausted by

23:37

it but I feel really nicely worked

23:40

out exactly. Yeah.

23:41

We are looking forward to our

23:44

pub lunch at the end of

23:46

the end of this road. You almost see it almost taste

23:49

it. You've

23:49

earned it I have to say and really

23:51

good luck. Thank you for letting me come with you

23:54

and and good luck with Kilimanjaro and

23:57

I think the greatest thing you're also creating

23:59

as well as a wonderful

23:59

experience is the friendship because

24:02

it strikes me that you're a man with many friends Frank

24:04

and they've been through a lot with you and this will be

24:06

another one they'll talk about for decades

24:09

to come. I'm

24:09

saying nothing. Let's

24:12

just hope it's not one of your epics anyway Frank.

24:15

She ought to tell me about when I took a father

24:17

on the quick walk. No, let's not.

24:21

That's a story for another time. You

24:23

can tell me on the way to the pub. Thank you.