Episode Transcript
Transcripts are displayed as originally observed. Some content, including advertisements may have changed.
Use Ctrl + F to search
0:00
It's September the 12th, 1943, just after 3 p.m.
0:02
Two hours north of Rome lies
0:05
a hotel,
0:11
the Campo Imperatore. It
0:14
sits atop the Gran Sasso mountain range,
0:17
a mile above sea level, accessed
0:20
only by a funicular railway.
0:24
Before the war it was a ski resort for the Italian
0:26
capital's well-heeled. Today,
0:29
out of season and out of use, it's
0:32
rather forlorn, tattered, empty,
0:35
save for a solitary resident,
0:37
quite a famous one. His
0:41
name is Benito Mussolini.
0:45
Turfed out of power by a new constitutional
0:48
government, the once strident
0:50
dictator has had a spectacular fall
0:52
from grace. Up here,
0:54
in this remote spot, he's being
0:57
held by armed police
0:59
until Italy's new rulers decide
1:01
what to do with him.
1:02
Till then, his presence remains
1:05
a closely guarded secret. Mussolini
1:09
fears that he will be handed over to the Americans, to
1:12
be exhibited like King Kong
1:14
in a cage at Madison Square Garden.
1:17
And so, on this bright afternoon, he sits at
1:19
his window, contemplating his fate.
1:23
It happens so fast, he barely
1:26
has time to clock it. Out
1:29
of the blue, a large aircraft
1:31
swoops down, its wingtips
1:33
skimming past mere feet away. It's
1:36
silent, a glider. Just
1:39
a rush and the clank of cables as
1:41
the pilot brings it in. Up
1:44
high, you can hear it now, the engines of the
1:47
plane that towed it here. Mussolini
1:51
cranes his neck. There are more
1:53
gliders, circling like
1:55
vultures, taking turns
1:57
to descend. He won't be able to
1:58
get out of here. watches as the first one
2:01
zooms in low to bounce across the
2:03
grassy slope, coming to
2:05
an abrupt precise stop, on
2:09
its wings a black crosses, on
2:12
its tail a swastika, and
2:16
out of its hold a poor German
2:19
paratroopers. They
2:22
clamber up the scree towards the hotel, machine
2:24
guns at the ready. Their lead man
2:27
is waving at him, telling him to get back. Il
2:31
Duceb breathes a sigh. He
2:34
knew he wouldn't abandon him. Not
2:37
after all they've been through together. His
2:39
dear friend, his brother, Adolf
2:42
Hitler, has come to his rescue. From
2:47
Neuser, this is the story
2:49
of Hitler's downfall, and this
2:52
is Real Dictators.
3:00
After the monumental defeat at Stalingrad in February 1943,
3:03
Hitler has been left
3:04
licking his wounds. There
3:08
will be no Lebensraum, no living
3:10
space for his people. What's
3:13
more, the Red Army is continuing to push
3:15
back hard against the Wehrmacht. The
3:19
official narrative spewing from Goebbels' Ministry
3:22
of Propaganda is one of heroic sacrifice,
3:25
a Wagnerian opera, Hitler
3:27
and his folk versus the world.
3:31
Professor Thomas Weber.
3:33
So he's really starting to talk in this kind
3:36
of religious, apocalyptical
3:38
way.
3:39
We Germans were insufficiently heroic
3:41
in the past. We were too peaceful and we all
3:44
have to find redemption from the sins of
3:46
the past. And we can do so in
3:48
committing ourselves to an eternal
3:51
fight for Germany's
3:53
future. Braver
3:55
elements of the public, and indeed the army,
3:58
are now prepared to resist. the Nazi regime,
4:02
even to entertain the unthinkable, the
4:04
killing of their Führer. Though
4:07
for the moment, they remain in the
4:09
shadows. Professor
4:12
Helen Roche.
4:14
Stalingrad marks this
4:16
really big turning point where
4:18
suddenly people begin to realise
4:21
that all of these speeches about
4:24
emulating the 300 or Nordic heroes are
4:28
preparing people for the idea that they're
4:30
making this sacrifice that has
4:33
been forced about by bad military planning. And
4:36
it's almost the gauge of how invested
4:39
in the regime people are, whether at this
4:41
point they continue to believe
4:43
in the final victory or
4:45
whether they begin to pull back and say, hmm,
4:48
things aren't going so well, this is
4:50
bad.
4:55
There's no doubt that America's entry into the
4:57
war has tipped the scales.
5:00
After victory in the Battle of the Atlantic, the
5:03
high seas now belong to the Allies. By
5:07
air, the US 8th Air Force and
5:10
RAF Bomber Command pound the fatherland
5:13
day and night. The United
5:15
States, the arsenal of democracy,
5:18
is also pouring money and material into
5:20
the Soviet Union. Hitler
5:23
may have boasted of a Reich to last a
5:25
thousand years. At
5:27
this rate, they'll be lucky if it lasts
5:29
another thousand days. And
5:33
now an Anglo-American invasion force, fresh
5:36
from its triumph in North Africa, has landed
5:38
in Sicily. The
5:41
response of the Italian army is half-hearted.
5:45
Word is feeding back to Hitler that the
5:47
defenders are coming out with their hands up. Dr.
5:51
John Curatola.
5:59
they fire one round to preserve
6:02
their honor and then they, okay, and then they surrender.
6:04
And so you don't see the Italians by this
6:07
stage of the war really interested in continuing
6:09
this thing.
6:10
Ground down by years of fascist rule,
6:13
there seems little appetite for
6:15
a fight. Allied
6:17
planes drop leaflets, die
6:20
for Mussolini and Hitler, or live
6:22
for Italy and for civilization.
6:26
The choice is pretty clear. In
6:29
the scenes, local mafia groups, many
6:31
with family ties to the United States, are
6:33
encouraging and secretly facilitating
6:36
the Allied advance. Some
6:40
among the Allies have viewed Italy as an unnecessary
6:42
diversion. The real business
6:45
will be hitting Hitler through France.
6:48
Churchill had wanted to land in Greece and
6:50
push up through the Balkans to strike the vexes
6:53
soft underbelly.
6:55
Italy already has an eye on how they might limit Stalin's
6:57
land grab in Eastern and Central Europe.
7:01
For his part, Stalin would rather
7:03
the British and the Americans cross the English
7:06
Channel. But a failed
7:08
raid at Dieppe in 1942 has
7:11
already laid bare just how difficult
7:13
this might be. Instead
7:16
there has been a compromise. Get
7:19
troops ashore as soon as possible by the
7:21
shortest crossing point. And
7:23
so, Sicily it is. The
7:27
move is as much political as strategic. Russians
7:30
have been dying by the million, quite literally.
7:34
Putting Western boots on the dirt of continental
7:36
Europe is a show of solidarity. In
7:39
terms of land warfare, the
7:41
Russians really are bearing the brunt
7:43
of this. And of course, they're looking for
7:45
some kind of relief from the Western Allies.
7:49
But in 1942 and 1943, both the Americans
7:51
and the British do not have the
7:53
forces and the wherewithal and the knowledge
7:55
and the staff functioning and all the other
7:58
sinews of war to conduct.
7:59
that major cross-channel operation.
8:03
The British and the Americans will try
8:05
this periphery strategy in North
8:07
Africa and Italy. It is not necessarily
8:09
what Stalin wants. He wants something more
8:11
robust.
8:15
But the Soviets appreciate the move. They've
8:18
mounted a big offensive to coincide
8:20
with the Sicily landings.
8:23
The Italian invasion may be expensive. It
8:26
may not realistically provide a route for Allied
8:28
troops to access Berlin, but, at
8:30
the very least, it will help destabilize
8:33
Mussolini's regime. It
8:35
will provide air bases from which to bomb
8:37
southern Axis targets, including
8:40
key oil fields in Romania. And
8:43
it will amount to another huge drain on
8:45
Hitler's resources. Within
8:48
days, Hitler is having to pull
8:50
troops away from the Eastern Front. There
8:56
are few in the Wehrmacht High Command, the
8:59
OKW who believe that this war can
9:01
be sustained, let alone won. And
9:05
the German people, despite ten years of Nazi
9:07
propaganda, are not stupid. On
9:10
the streets of Germany, on the buses, in
9:12
the workplaces, there is a grim
9:14
humor at play. Hitler
9:17
has written a new book, they say, Mein
9:20
Feller,
9:21
my error. There's
9:23
another one, a joke, about the
9:25
U-boat that gets sunk with Hitler and Goebbels
9:27
on board. The entire
9:29
German nation is rescued. Could
9:34
Hitler still buy peace? Many
9:37
Nazi high-ups hope so. The
9:39
Allies have their doctrine of unconditional surrender
9:42
formulated at the Casablanca Conference.
9:45
But in diplomacy, in negotiations, there
9:48
is always wiggle room. Nothing
9:51
is agreed until everything is agreed. Mussolini
9:56
has already urged his buddy to come to some
9:58
agreement with Stalin. The
10:00
idea has gained currency in the Fuhrer's inner
10:02
sanctum, end the slaughter
10:05
in the East, and consolidate. Like
10:10
Hermann Göring, Joachim von
10:13
Riebendropp, the Reich's foreign minister, also
10:15
has contacts in neutral Sweden. He
10:18
puts out feelers. The
10:21
Soviet Union is in the ascendancy, holding
10:23
all the cards. But Riebendropp
10:26
has heard that certain influential Russians
10:29
are also tired of war, and
10:31
tired of Stalin. Maybe
10:34
they could wind back the clock and settle on the
10:36
old 1914 borders. Forget
10:39
this ever happened. They can still
10:41
keep their halves of Poland. But,
10:45
in Stockholm, the line coming
10:47
out of the Soviet embassy is one of deep cynicism.
10:51
Wasn't Riebendropp, the former sparkling
10:53
wine salesman, the one who flogged them the
10:56
dodgy friendship pact with Germany in
10:58
the first place? Hitler
11:01
comes down and his foreign minister like a ton of
11:03
bricks.
11:04
To hell with Russia. This
11:06
is a struggle to the bitter end. Death
11:09
and glory. Bed,
11:14
Bath & Beyond is back with more to
11:16
choose from than ever before. At
11:18
the new Bed, Bath & Beyond, you'll find
11:21
all the products and brands you love. Along
11:23
with a huge new selection of furniture,
11:26
decor, and everything else, you need
11:28
to create the home of your dreams. All
11:31
in one amazing online store.
11:32
Download our new app and
11:34
save even more with exclusive deals
11:36
and offers. What? Get free
11:38
shipping right to your front doors. Welcome
11:41
to a bigger, better beyond.
11:44
Perhaps rightly, Hitler believes that
11:46
no one can be trusted anymore. Trust
11:49
and loyalty, especially where Mussolini is
11:51
concerned, have proven to be very
11:54
costly. than
12:00
Italy. Hitler upbraids
12:02
Il Duce in a two-hour amphetamine-fueled
12:05
rant. He tells him that they must
12:07
remain strong. They will secure
12:09
their Axis legacy just you wait and
12:11
see. Mussolini
12:14
must rouse the Italians into a heroic
12:16
defense against the Allied invader.
12:18
Expelled them from Sicily before it's too
12:20
late.
12:22
It already is. Sicily's
12:24
capital, Palermo, is about to fall
12:27
any day. Hitler's
12:30
tirade is so incomprehensible that
12:32
the Italian dictator has to ask the Führer's
12:34
interpreter for a copy of his notes. Unfortunately,
12:40
Mussolini isn't exactly feeling the call of
12:42
history at the moment. Or so
12:44
he tries to explain to Hitler in his faltering
12:47
German. His biggest enemy
12:49
seems to be his own people. There
12:52
have been riots in Milan and Turin
12:55
over food prices and government corruption.
12:58
Rome has just experienced its first heavy
13:00
Allied bombing raid. And
13:02
now political forces are moving against him
13:04
too. Back
13:07
in the Italian capital, at the urging
13:09
of his lieutenants, Mussolini
13:11
convenes the fascist Grand Council. They
13:15
will renew the fight, restore
13:17
law and order. But the
13:19
proceedings do not turn out the way Il Duce
13:22
had planned. A vote
13:24
is called. By a shock.
13:27
19-8. A resolution is passed
13:29
to restore the constitutional monarchy
13:32
and the parliament. The king,
13:35
Victor Emmanuel III, will become
13:37
the new commander-in-chief of the armed forces.
13:41
Just like that,
13:42
Mussolini is given the order of
13:44
the vote.
13:48
He's in complete denial. He
13:50
turns up for work the next days if nothing has
13:52
happened. The king will
13:54
have none of it. That evening
13:56
Mussolini is arrested and carted off, symbolically.
14:00
in an ambulance to be deposited
14:02
at the nearest police station. He
14:06
has paid the personal price for
14:08
tying Italy's fortunes to
14:10
those of Adolf Hitler. This
14:13
big daddy of European dictators, the
14:16
original strongman tyrant, is
14:18
suddenly history. And
14:21
no one lifts a finger to help him. In
14:23
fact, on the streets, there's rejoicing.
14:27
A popular chant goes up. Benito
14:29
e Finito. The
14:33
king appoints a veteran general, Pietro
14:35
Badoglio, to form a new government. The
14:38
fascist party is dissolved. Political
14:41
opponents of Mussolini's regime are released
14:43
from prison. The dream of
14:45
the black shirts is over. Back
14:53
in Berlin, Hitler is stunned.
14:56
It's not just the loss of his great power. It's
14:59
that Il Duce took it so tamely. Not
15:02
a hint of going down, guns a-blazing.
15:06
What might happen if the German people or the
15:08
generals turn against him? Hitler
15:12
is deeply suspicious of Badoglio.
15:14
He has pledged that Italy will continue the fight
15:17
against the Allies, but Hitler suspects
15:20
that once they reach the mainland, the
15:22
new Prime Minister will throw in the towel.
15:27
There is nothing in the short term
15:29
that Goebbels can't fix. To
15:32
the German people, the line goes out that
15:34
Mussolini has retired due to ill health.
15:37
Nothing to see here.
15:40
Hitler dispatches German troops to secure
15:42
the Alpine process.
15:43
Lest Italian troops blow them up and
15:46
seal off the country altogether.
15:48
Italy will be kept open for military business, he declares.
15:52
They will overthrow this new Roman government,
15:54
this gang of impostors. He
15:57
tells General Yodel, we'll get that
15:59
bunch of swine. out of there. For
16:02
a surprising amount of time,
16:04
Hitler will still think that somehow
16:07
there can be a reversal. He somehow thinks
16:09
that ultimately the Allied
16:12
soldiers will run out of steam and
16:14
will no longer have a will to fight.
16:16
This is why
16:17
almost until the end you can understand
16:20
where Hitler's fantasies of a last-minute reversal
16:22
of the war is coming from.
16:27
The Soviet Union's capacity to withstand
16:30
punishment remains staggering. The
16:32
people of the USSR seem to have a superhuman
16:35
ability to just take it. Up
16:38
north, Leningrad, Russia's
16:41
second city, has been under siege
16:43
for two whole years. By
16:46
the time of its liberation in January 1944, the
16:49
Soviet death toll here will exceed that
16:52
of the combined Western armed forces
16:54
for the entire war.
16:57
I still cannot wrap my head
16:59
around the scale and scope
17:02
of the Eastern Front. How
17:04
big, how massive, the casualties,
17:06
the manpower, the material, it staggers
17:09
the imagination. Just to give you
17:11
a figure to kind of compare, the Americans
17:13
and the British for the war in total
17:16
lose about a half a million men, ballpark figure, 400,000,
17:18
500,000 people. The Russians will
17:22
lose 25 million. And
17:24
that's only an estimate because
17:27
Stalin was doing a Stalin thing in the 30s, so
17:29
we don't know what the starting number was. Seven estimates
17:32
are as high as 45 million. So again,
17:34
when you look at the scale and the scope
17:36
of what happens on the Eastern Front, it's massive.
17:39
Another statistic for you, roughly,
17:42
for every 10 dead Germans, seven
17:44
were killed by a Russian bullet.
17:50
It all feeds into the Kremlin's paranoia.
17:52
This big three alliance,
17:55
the United States, Britain and themselves,
17:58
is a marriage of convenience. sense, everyone
18:01
knows it. The West doesn't
18:03
want a Soviet-dominated Europe, any
18:05
more than it wants a Nazi runway. So
18:08
is this all just a ploy, all
18:11
parts of the long game? Are
18:13
the West and Allies simply letting the Russians burn
18:15
themselves out? In
18:18
which case, is responding
18:20
to German peace overtures really such
18:22
a mad idea? Could
18:25
they have the momentum now? Why quit
18:28
when they're on top? And the Germans
18:30
have committed too much atrocity to be led off the
18:32
hook. Ironically,
18:36
the advancing Germans had been greeted
18:38
as liberators in some parts, in the Baltics,
18:41
in areas of Ukraine. The
18:43
Wehrmacht could have used the local people to their
18:45
advantage. But
18:47
Hitler never treated them as anything other than
18:49
Untermensch, subhumans.
18:52
And now, it's payback time.
18:56
And you see this upswell
18:58
of patriotism, not fighting
19:00
for communism, but fighting for
19:03
Mother Russia. Stalin is smart
19:05
enough to understand, look, they're not going to fight
19:07
for the greater glory of the Soviet Union, they're going
19:09
to fight for Mother Russia. And so you
19:12
see this changing mental and
19:14
emotional messages that are coming out
19:16
from the Soviet Union at this time.
19:21
The Soviet forces meanwhile grow stronger
19:23
by the day. By
19:25
the road route across Persia, by
19:28
the Arctic convoys, Russia
19:30
is being supplied and armed to
19:32
the teeth.
19:35
Dr. Chris Diller. The
19:37
prospects for Germany winning the war
19:39
are receding quickly. The industrial
19:42
capacity of Germany cannot
19:45
match that of the US
19:47
plus the other allies. And so
19:49
Germany can't turn out enough
19:51
planes, they can't turn out enough
19:54
capital battleships to win a world
19:57
war. It can turn out things are easier like
19:59
tank but it can't cope with a large
20:01
air war. Generals would sometimes convince
20:04
themselves that by sheer elan and
20:07
fighting spirit, they could offset these basic
20:09
material realities. But I imagine
20:12
that once they'd sobered up after their cognac, the
20:14
situation generally was much clearer. The
20:17
Red Army, with over 6 million
20:19
personnel deployed on the Eastern Front, is
20:22
now more than twice the size of the Wehrmacht.
20:26
The big showdown is about to come. A
20:29
combined 2 million men, 6,000 tanks
20:32
and 4,000 aircraft, are
20:35
about to clash in one of the biggest battles
20:37
in history, the Battle of Kursk.
20:45
Kursk lies in Western Russia.
20:48
In the open land outside the city, across
20:51
the undulating wheat fields and gentle streams,
20:54
the Germans have been watching. They've
20:57
observed a growing bulge in the Soviet
20:59
lines, a salient. Hitler
21:03
believes it can be cut off and encircled.
21:07
And so in April, he initiates
21:09
Operation Citadel. As
21:13
Hitler sees it, once this
21:15
Soviet weakness has been exploited, 900,000 men
21:18
and 17 panzer divisions will
21:21
punch through the enemy lines and
21:23
wheel back up to Moscow. Hitler
21:27
declares the Reich's imminent and inevitable
21:30
victory to be a beacon for
21:32
the whole world. But
21:35
it's a desperate swing from a punch-drunk
21:37
boxer. He has
21:39
telegraphed his move, literally. British
21:42
intelligence has been pressing decoded Wehrmacht
21:45
messages to their Soviet allies. Sir
21:49
Anthony Beaver.
21:50
Now, the battle, of course, was something
21:53
which Hitler had been planning with Field
21:55
Marshal von Manstein from quite
21:57
early on in 1943. The
22:00
trouble was that they kept delaying
22:02
the operation. And I mean, to give
22:04
an idea of Hitler's obstinacy, Hitler
22:07
was determined that, for example, the
22:09
new Panther tank, the Mark V Panzer,
22:12
must be involved in the operation. Well,
22:15
through a lucky chance, part of
22:17
our strategic offensive actually
22:20
hit the factory where the Panzer tank
22:22
was being manufactured. But instead
22:24
of changing the plan and saying, well, we'll
22:26
just have to get on with it, Hitler then again
22:29
postponed the operation back until
22:31
May. Well, by then, the
22:34
Russians had managed to really increase
22:37
their defensive positions. I mean, every
22:40
single bump or dip in the ground
22:42
had been turned into a fortified position with
22:45
anti-tank guns, with barbed wire,
22:48
with trenches and all the rest of it. And
22:51
they knew exactly what was happening. This
22:54
is a problem you're going to see for the remainder of the war.
22:57
One of the things that makes the Wehrmacht so successful,
23:00
say 1939, all the way up into the
23:02
end of 1941 and getting into 1942, is the fact
23:04
that you have a lot of innovation. You
23:07
have a lot of commanders who have the authority
23:10
to act independently and think independently.
23:13
But as things start to go pear-shaped
23:15
for the Germans, this ability to have
23:17
flexibility starts to evaporate.
23:19
The Russians on
23:22
the Eastern Front, they go the opposite direction. nals
23:26
of his
23:29
ilk, to operate independently without
23:32
having, say, Stalin stick his finger
23:34
in the pie.
23:40
It's not until July the 5th that the great
23:42
offensive begins. Marshal
23:44
Zhukov knows exactly what to do.
23:47
Sit tight and soak up the pressure.
23:50
As one might put it, park the bus.
23:54
Thanks to this advance intel, the
23:57
Soviet Air Force has already managed to destroy 500.
24:00
looked after aircraft on the ground, depriving
24:03
the German army of medical air support.
24:07
Hitler is already having to pull troops out of the
24:09
front lines to reinforce the new Italian
24:11
front. To replace them,
24:14
he calls up members of the Hitler Youth and
24:17
men in their fifties. The
24:22
ongoing battle is muddy, chaotic
24:25
and epic in scale.
24:27
It was a slodding battle of
24:29
the worst imaginable kind. And
24:32
by holding in there, the Russians
24:34
or the Red Army was able to inflict very
24:37
heavy casualties on the German
24:39
army. During the
24:42
battle, of course, we see
24:44
the whole of the balance of power
24:47
in the air on the Eastern Front changing. For
24:50
once now, suddenly, the Germans
24:52
are having to pull back their anti-aircraft
24:54
guns to Germany, again, to defend
24:57
the cities, leaving the Eastern
24:59
Front fuck war experience. And
25:02
this actually has a critical effect,
25:05
in fact, on war as a whole and not
25:07
just the war on the Eastern Front.
25:10
By July the 15th, with half
25:12
of his tanks wiped out, Hitler
25:14
calls a halt. Operation
25:17
Citadel is over. The
25:19
battle of Kursk is lost.
25:27
It has been hugely costly for the Red Army
25:29
too.
25:31
Now, are they losing a lot? Yes,
25:33
they are. However, they can sustain
25:36
those losses. The Germans, on the
25:38
other hand, are not in a position to
25:40
sustain these large-scale losses. And
25:43
while Blitzkrieg is
25:45
based upon quick lightning
25:48
strikes, it's not designed
25:50
for an attritional fight, which is what
25:52
they get.
25:54
In the history books, this momentous
25:56
clash tends to play second fiddle to
25:58
Stalingrad. especially
26:00
when Soviet achievements become downplayed
26:03
in the West during the Cold War. It
26:06
doesn't help either that the Battle of Kursk
26:08
goes by varying operational names
26:11
and consists of multiple different encounters.
26:15
But it is one of the significant engagements
26:18
of the European conflict. With
26:22
a million men now chasing after the retreating
26:24
Germans, the Red Army is
26:26
an unstoppable force. From
26:29
August to November 1943, the cities
26:32
have retaken. Olyol, Belgorod,
26:35
Kharkov, Smolensk, Kiev.
26:39
And Stalin's commanders have reached a major geographical
26:42
and strategic objective. The
26:44
Dnieper River. The
26:47
wide waterway flows north-south from Russia
26:50
down through Ukraine, all the way
26:52
to the Black Sea. With
26:55
it, Stalin can build up his forces
26:57
at his own leisure.
26:59
Once across the Dnieper, the
27:01
Wehrmacht will be backpedaling all the way
27:03
to the Brandenburg Gate.
27:06
In the spring, German
27:08
soldiers were boasting of sending home Astrakhan
27:11
furs to their wives and girlfriends.
27:15
By autumn, they're scavenging
27:17
for rags
27:17
to wrap their frostbait fate.
27:21
The Nazi rhetoric still spouted by their
27:23
officers rings hollow. Many
27:26
can't look their own man in the eye.
27:29
The problem is, what is the Soviet
27:31
Union's center of gravity? What
27:33
will cause the Soviet Union to capitulate?
27:36
And that's something that the Germans can't figure out. They
27:39
can take city after city. They're very good
27:41
at taking a city or winning an engagement.
27:44
But the problem is, how do you string
27:46
engagements or battles to
27:49
meet a strategic objective? If
27:51
your strategic gain is to
27:53
remove Jewish Bolshevism,
27:56
I use that term, and specifically
27:58
in the Soviet Union, well, how do you do that? How do you do that? And
28:02
so while you can take these individual cities,
28:04
it is not moving your strategic objective
28:07
that marker down the field. You're
28:09
basically just wasting assets and wasting
28:12
men.
28:18
In Sicily, US and Commonwealth
28:20
forces prepare to cross the Straits of Messina
28:22
to the mainland. They
28:25
land successfully on September the 3rd,
28:27
virtually unopposed. But
28:30
the fighting will become more intense. The
28:33
Germans are ready and waiting for the coastal
28:35
ascent on Solerno. Hitler
28:40
summons a war council of the OKW.
28:43
He tells them that they need to toughen up, to
28:45
demonstrate a willingness for cruelty in the
28:48
treatment of their men, just like
28:50
the Soviets have done. There
28:52
should be trials and court-marshals and executions
28:55
to stiffen the resolve.
28:59
It doesn't work. In
29:01
three weeks, the Allies will have taken
29:03
Naples. And
29:05
just as Hitler had predicted, on September
29:08
the 8th, Prime Minister Badolia
29:10
reveals that he has sought an armistice.
29:13
Italy is out of the war.
29:18
Two days later, from the wolf's lair,
29:21
Hitler makes a radio broadcast. At
29:24
just 16 minutes long, the
29:26
speech seems rushed, high-pitched.
29:30
My right to believe unconditionally and success
29:32
is founded not only on my own life, but
29:35
also on the destiny of our people. Germany
29:38
is invincible. In
29:41
reality, events are now running
29:43
away with themselves. Hitler
29:47
has two courses of action up his sleeve.
29:50
The first, Operation Axis, is
29:53
to initiate the full German military occupation
29:55
of Italy. The man
29:57
for the job is Field Marshal Kesselring. The
30:00
masterful Luftwaffe commander, one
30:02
of his most capable. He will
30:04
be charged with seizing Rome and
30:07
shoring up the defenses. Kesselring
30:10
duly takes the Italian capital, crushing
30:13
resistance and taking 650,000 soldiers as
30:17
prisoners of war. Most
30:19
are sent off as forced labor. A
30:22
second move, Operation Oak, is
30:25
designed to restore some fascist honor.
30:29
At Hitler's personal initiative, it
30:32
will be an audacious mission to rescue
30:34
Mussolini. Professor
30:37
Nicholas of Schonasy.
30:39
Unlike Stalin, who is incapable of
30:41
personal loyalties, Hitler was capable
30:44
of very strong personal loyalties, and
30:47
particularly in the case of Mussolini,
30:49
and so he was determined to save
30:51
him, and save him he did, by one
30:53
of the most remarkable surgical interventions
30:56
of World War II.
30:59
Lieutenant Colonel Otto Skorzini is
31:01
a Nazi officer straight out of a Hollywood
31:03
B-movie.
31:06
He's 35 years of age, 6'4",
31:09
multilingual. The
31:11
Austrian SS man is best known for the deep
31:14
fencing scar that runs down his left cheek.
31:17
He got it in a duel. A
31:21
former bodyguard to Hitler, Skorzini
31:23
has distinguished himself in combat on the Eastern
31:25
Front. He's earned a reputation
31:28
as Europe's most dangerous man. After
31:32
the war, Skorzini will escape captivity
31:34
and pop up in Spain, Argentina,
31:37
Egypt. He will
31:39
end up in what seems an extremely unlikely
31:41
moment
31:42
in time,
31:44
working for the Israeli secret service,
31:46
Mossad. But that's another
31:48
story. Mussolini
31:52
is being held in the Grand Sasso Mountains
31:54
in Northern Italy at the Hotel
31:56
Campo Imperatori, and
31:58
what better way to liberate him than by the hand
32:01
of the Reich's most famous warrior. On
32:06
September 12th, Scosini
32:08
and 107 mission commandos are
32:10
transported in a squadron of gliders, toered
32:13
by light aircraft. They
32:16
are released on high, riding on a
32:18
thermal to circle around the hotel before
32:21
coming in low. They crash
32:23
land just a few hundred yards away. Scosini
32:28
watches on in expectation as
32:30
Scosini's men scramble up the slope.
32:33
They've even brought a film crew with them to
32:35
record the daring raid for Costa Rica.
32:39
When the lead squad rushes in, submachine
32:41
guns raised, the sight of them is so
32:43
awe-inspiring that the armed police
32:46
guarding Mussolini head for the hills, at
32:49
least according to the legends. In
32:52
Neil Duce's room, Scosini
32:54
informs the ousted Italian leader that
32:57
Hitler personally has sent them to
32:59
release him. The
33:01
teary prisoner embraces his rescuer. I
33:04
knew my Führer would not let me down. Mussolini
33:09
does not look well. The normally well-fed
33:12
tyrant is gaunt and unshaven. His
33:15
traditional smooth skull is patchy and stubbly,
33:18
and he's dressed in an ill-fitting, saggy civilian
33:21
suit. A
33:24
few minutes later, a small single-engined
33:26
aircraft bumps along the grass. Mussolini
33:31
is swept out and bundled into it. The
33:34
pilot insists that there's only room for the
33:37
one passenger.
33:38
What's Scosini's adamant that he
33:40
will come along for the ride?
33:44
The plane turns into the wind, ready
33:46
for takeoff. The pilot revs
33:48
the engine. The run-up
33:50
is ridiculously short, near yards.
33:53
The overlaid aircraft rattles along, strained
33:56
to the max. Then plunges
33:58
off the edge of the mountain. into a ravine.
34:01
The
34:04
pilot heaves back on the stick with
34:06
all his might, struggling to keep the plane's
34:08
nose pointing skyward. Somehow
34:11
he does it. He
34:15
climbs away. The
34:18
Salini
34:19
has been sprung.
34:24
At the wolf's lair, Hitler has been pacing
34:27
around waiting for news. Word
34:30
comes through that they've set down at a German-occupied
34:32
airport near Rome. Le
34:35
Fure telephones, Guzzini. You
34:37
have performed a military feat which will become
34:39
part of history. You have
34:41
given me back, my friend, Mussolini.
34:46
The mission, it turns out, has been somewhat overstated.
34:49
There was no real raid, no
34:52
jailbreak. The Italian
34:54
defenders had even posed for photographs
34:57
with Guzzini's men. But
34:59
Goebbels has got a sensational action film
35:01
to screen to the German public. A
35:04
mission impossible. And
35:06
the Reich has an instant hero.
35:10
Many were involved in that operation,
35:13
but the PR machine let Scorsini
35:15
take the credit. He was quite
35:17
old. He'd been rejected for the German Air
35:19
Force because he was too tall, my
35:22
dear, and too old. So
35:25
he was, in a way, you could say past
35:27
his prime. He was getting on. But
35:30
he nevertheless looked the part.
35:33
And if you see the Third Reich as a
35:35
movie, designed by a set
35:37
designer and self-produced,
35:40
which it was, then Scorsini
35:42
fitted the bill.
35:45
Mussolini has spirited away to Vienna,
35:47
where he spends the night at the Hotel Imperial.
35:50
Scorsini, thoughtfully, has brought
35:52
Il Duce some pajamas. But
35:55
the tearful captive is now recovering his form
35:58
back to the old Braggadocio. He
36:01
never wears anything at night, he tells Scusini,
36:03
clapping him on the back, and I would advise
36:05
you do the same, especially if you're with
36:08
a woman. After
36:11
a stopover in Munich, where he's reunited
36:13
with his family, Mussolini is
36:15
soon airborne again, winging his
36:17
way to East Prussia for the big bromantic
36:20
reunion. September
36:25
14th, 1943, morning at the Wolf's Lair. A
36:31
plane appears, it purrs past
36:34
the windsock to land at the command post
36:36
airfield. An expectant
36:38
fuhrer in his leather trench coat waits
36:41
excitedly, and soon
36:43
there he is, Mussolini,
36:46
coming down the steps. In
36:49
the morning sunshine the two dictators clutch
36:51
hands, gazing into each other's
36:54
eyes. If
36:56
they can't lay waste to Europe and murder
36:58
millions of people,
37:00
then who can?
37:02
Once settled in the bunker, Hitler
37:04
gets down to business. He
37:07
urges Mussolini to take vengeance on
37:09
Prime Minister Badaglia as soon and as painfully
37:11
as possible. But
37:14
Mussolini hasn't got the stomach for it anymore.
37:17
Hitler asks, what is this sort
37:20
of fascism that melts with the snow before
37:22
the sun?
37:23
Their new order is not dead, not
37:25
by a long shot. Take heart.
37:30
Hitler sweetens the deal. He
37:32
will set Mussolini up with his own republic
37:34
in northern Italy. Fascism
37:36
will live on. Tell
37:39
me a small service charge. He'll
37:41
do Cemma's hand over some territory. Mussolini
37:44
shrugs, whatever. And
37:47
so on September 15 at Hitler's behest,
37:50
Mussolini proclaims the new Italian
37:53
social republic. Everything
37:55
from Rome, northwards. Badaglia's
37:59
legitimate government meanwhile goes into exile
38:01
in the southern city of Brindisi. On
38:04
October the 13th it will formally switch
38:07
sides to join the Allies. The
38:11
special forces of the SS managed
38:13
to liberate Mussolini but that
38:15
is of course the special operation. This is not the war
38:17
at large and in the way it's also a smokescreen
38:20
that things are still not going at all
38:23
and what soon becomes clear is that
38:25
Mussolini is in no position
38:27
at all to really take over the helm
38:29
of Italy again. As
38:32
head of the new puppet state Mussolini
38:34
along with his mistress Clara Petacci is
38:37
set up in a villa on the north shore of Lake Garda
38:40
under the close watch of the SS. He
38:43
will flex his dictatorial muscles again
38:45
with a demonstration to Hitler as
38:47
much as to anyone that Il Duce is
38:49
back in business. After
38:53
a show trial in Verona four
38:55
members of the fascist Grand Council who
38:57
voted against Mussolini are
38:59
sentenced to death including
39:02
his son-in-law Count Giorno the
39:04
old foreign minister. In
39:07
January 1944 they will be killed by
39:10
firing squad given a
39:12
dishonorable end by being tied
39:14
to chairs facing away
39:16
from their executioners.
39:23
When it comes to personal style it's not
39:25
just about a signature look you can build
39:27
your style piece by piece. With new
39:29
colors fabrics and styles it's the perfect
39:32
time to add new layers with Indochino.
39:34
From classic suits to stylish outerwear
39:36
get made to measure quality at an off-the-rack
39:39
price. Add fresh layers to your false
39:41
style with Indochino. Go to Indochino.com
39:44
and use code podcast to get 10% off
39:46
any purchase $3.99 or more. That's 10% off at indochino.com
39:52
code podcast.
39:54
The only thing Mussolini seems concerned about
39:56
once again is that Hitler settles
39:59
his scores with style.
39:59
It
40:01
is not just in Sweden where back channels
40:03
have been opened. The Japanese
40:06
too have been having conversations
40:08
on the Axis' behalf. There
40:10
is no doubt in Tokyo as to who is going to emerge
40:13
victorious on the Eastern Front, as
40:16
Soviet victory could have ramifications
40:18
regarding the war in Asia. At
40:22
the Wolf's Lair, Goebbels
40:24
tries to soften up Hitler again to the idea
40:27
of a negotiated peace. End
40:30
it now, before the Red Army
40:32
ravages Berlin. On
40:35
September 23, Goebbels takes Hitler
40:37
for a walk in the woods to lay out his case.
40:41
But it leads to the usual histrionics. Besides,
40:44
when does Hitler, even if they were to negotiate,
40:47
a big if? Wouldn't Churchill
40:49
be the better bet? The
40:51
British and the Germans, as he always said,
40:54
are kindred spirits. They could
40:56
march together against the Bolsheviks,
40:58
couldn't they? Goebbels
41:01
disagrees. Churchill
41:03
is a romantic adventurer. Stalin
41:06
is the pragmatist, the realist. That
41:09
is where any deal might be done. When
41:13
they die in a loan, later Hitler seems
41:16
to have been swan.
41:18
Maybe Goebbels is right. There
41:21
were one or two occasions when he would say
41:23
something like that, I think that the war is lost. But
41:26
only one or two people, just very, very close colleagues
41:29
or close collaborators. And
41:31
then he would change his mind again, saying, you
41:33
know, we will reorganize this when we organize
41:36
that or whatever. He could never keep,
41:38
should we say, consistent thoughts in
41:40
his head about the course of the war.
41:44
But the chances of Stalin calling a truce,
41:47
remote as they already were, are diminishing
41:49
by the day, especially
41:52
as he's about to sweep across the Dnieper
41:54
River. And worse,
41:57
there are rumors he is about to meet up with Roosevelt
41:59
and Churchill. indeed
42:02
in just a few weeks in November a
42:05
further Allied conference will take place
42:07
in Tehran. It will be
42:09
the first time the big three leaders have
42:11
convened in person. And their
42:14
agenda? This is no
42:16
longer about the prosecution of the war but
42:19
the post-war settlement. A
42:21
plan for the post-Nazi era.
42:25
Hitler has already been consigned to the
42:27
dustbin
42:27
of history.
42:30
They will discuss something else too. A
42:33
new military mission. Something
42:35
called Operation Overlord.
42:40
The long awaited invasion across the English
42:42
Channel has finally been given the go-ahead.
42:45
Set for the following spring. On
42:51
November the 8th for the anniversary
42:53
of the Beer Hall Podge Hitler is
42:55
back in Munich making his customary
42:57
speech about ultimate victory. Maybe
43:01
he knows something the Allies don't. For
43:04
advancing up the Italian peninsula is turning
43:06
out to be a long hard slog. Less
43:09
soft underbelly. More tough
43:11
old gut as US General Mark
43:14
Clark calls it. Due
43:16
to the mountainous interior fighting
43:18
is restricted to the coasts. It's
43:21
a case of edging northwards and trying
43:23
to leapfrog ahead of the enemy with a series
43:25
of shore landings. Hitler's
43:29
loyal Field Marshal Kesselring has
43:31
dug in south of Rome. His
43:34
Gustaf line, which hinges
43:36
on the hilltop monastery of Monte Cassino,
43:39
seems to be holding out. After
43:42
the beach landings at Ancio, the
43:45
Germans even captured two American range
43:47
of Italians and parade them
43:49
through Rome. The
43:52
fighting is bucco. Monte
43:54
Cassino is leveled by Allied bombing. A
43:57
monument to the war's intensity. Eventually,
44:00
even Kesselring is forced to withdraw. He
44:03
declares Rome an open city. US
44:06
General Clark's Fifth Army enters it on
44:09
June the 4th, 1944.
44:12
The first Axis capital has fallen.
44:19
Midday, June the 6th, 1944. We're
44:24
at the Berghof. Unable
44:27
to digest the news from Italy, Hitler
44:29
takes to his bed. He's
44:32
back to his old routine, medicated
44:35
by his personal physician, Dr. Morell, working
44:38
late or droning on through the night about
44:40
the good old days, and then sleeping
44:42
into the afternoon. You
44:45
would be a fool to wake the Fuhrer, no
44:48
matter the circumstances. No
44:51
matter that on this very morning,
44:54
the Berghof switchboard is lit up like a
44:56
Christmas tree. The airwaves
44:58
buzzing with a shock new development.
45:02
There is massive allied activity on
45:04
the coast of Normandy, France. There
45:08
were paratroop landings during the night, the
45:10
reports are stating. Local
45:13
resistance has been active in behind the line
45:15
sabotage. And since first
45:17
light, backed by an almighty
45:19
air and naval bombardment, a
45:22
huge, amphibious assault has
45:23
been taking place. Wave
45:27
after wave of landing craft has been grinding onto the
45:30
sand. British, American, and Canadian units
45:33
are advancing off the beaches.
45:39
But that was what, six, seven hours ago now? Field
45:41
commanders in northern France are in a
45:43
state of confusion, awaiting instructions, powerless
45:47
to act until given Hitler's personal
45:49
consent.
45:51
At the Berghof,
45:54
at the Berghof, they eye the
45:56
clock.
45:58
Somebody really ought to.
45:59
await the Führer.
46:09
In the next episode, a
46:13
delusion of Hitler downplays the
46:15
Normandy Lineings. A
46:17
group of generals, meanwhile, attempts an
46:19
audacious military coup. With
46:22
Allied bombers pounding Germany, the
46:24
Führer plays his next card. Scientific
46:28
wonder weapons that will turn
46:30
the war back his way.
Podchaser is the ultimate destination for podcast data, search, and discovery. Learn More