0:40

Hi everybody and welcome back to

0:42

the Real Food Stories podcast . Today I

0:44

am with Dana Karen Ciccone

0:47

, who is a certified Pilates

0:49

instructor who helps people

0:51

in pain , improve strength , mobility

0:54

and well-being in a weight-neutral environment

0:56

. She's also trained

0:59

in pain reprocessing therapy

1:01

through the Pain Psychology Center . Having

1:03

begun her own journey with chronic back pain

1:06

as a young teen , dk

1:08

, as she sometimes likes to be called

1:10

, has been exploring ways to

1:12

help herself and others regain joy

1:14

of movement for decades . After

1:17

20 years in the health sector , dk

1:19

left a corporate career to follow her passion

1:22

, later launching Movement Remedies

1:25

, a chronic pain focused Pilates studio

1:27

in Boston , massachusetts . Her

1:29

first book , you're Meant to Move A

1:31

Guide to Conquering Chronic Pain , increasing

1:34

Stress , resilience and Reclaiming an Active

1:36

Life , was released in December of

1:39

2023 . So

1:41

welcome to the show

1:43

and I'm so glad that you are here today , because

1:45

when I heard about what you

1:47

do , which is help people

1:49

with chronic pain and

1:51

you work also in a weight neutral

1:54

environment , I was really intrigued

1:56

, because I have my own personal story

1:58

with chronic pain and

2:06

the and I know very well that fear that you can develop around just simply moving and exercising

2:08

, because you start to get convinced that you're going to make something worse

2:11

or that you just can't move

2:13

Like other people can . Something's

2:15

really wrong with you and I know it can

2:17

create . You know , for me like a like

2:19

a lot of shame , like a

2:21

like a , just a like

2:24

, you know these like deep seated shame that I

2:26

am not like good enough and

2:28

that can just create the cycle

2:31

and it's hard to get out of the

2:33

chronic pain cycle . So

2:35

I wanted to just

2:37

why don't we start with you and

2:40

and I want to hear your story about

2:43

your childhood experience

2:45

with pain and how that turned

2:48

chronic and then

2:50

I guess , how you overcame it .

2:52

Yeah Well , first of all , thanks so much for

2:54

having me Really excited to be here and have

2:56

this conversation . Every time , you

2:59

know , we can connect with other folks with like-minded

3:02

views . I just think it's so validating in

3:04

general because so many of us are working

3:07

in these area corners of the world , um

3:09

, and it's nice to connect , um

3:12

. So I mean I've had many chapters

3:14

in my pain story , as , as you mentioned

3:16

when you were in my bio , there's the , the

3:18

initial pain story , which is the

3:21

uh , the chronic pain in my back that began

3:23

when I was an aspiring dancer in my

3:26

teen years , and

3:28

that kind of came and

3:30

went and it was not something

3:32

that made any sense to anyone . I

3:34

still , to this day , don't really know . It's

3:36

not like I had an accident or something that

3:39

would have made

3:41

for an acute pain

3:43

situation . It was really . And to have chronic

3:46

pain I mean now that I know what I know to have chronic

3:48

pain recurring at such a young

3:50

age is unusual . I mean it

3:52

certainly happens , but it's not the

3:54

typical story , although

3:56

a lot of the folks I work with have stories

3:58

like that , and so I do think that there are some

4:00

patterns which I'm sure we'll get into in terms of

4:03

, like , trauma and experiences that

4:05

lead to that . So that

4:07

was sort of the first era . Once

4:10

I moved on from dance I realized

4:12

, you know , my body was just not going to not

4:14

cut out for it because it could

4:16

not , you know , keep up with the demanding schedule

4:18

and everything . I moved on

4:20

with my life , went to school and had started

4:22

a corporate life and then somewhere

4:25

in my mid-20s started having

4:27

again really severe pain , this time

4:29

going down my leg , you know kind of classic

4:31

sciatica symptoms , and

4:33

was diagnosed with a herniated

4:35

disc in my lumbar spine . Explored

4:38

a whole range of treatments at that point

4:40

, from PT to epidural

4:43

injections to aqua therapy , to

4:45

, you know , you

4:47

name it . I was really desperate for relief

4:49

and towards the end of that experience

4:52

, you know , several months in , someone

4:55

said to me you know , I've heard Pilates is great

4:57

for backs and that was really

4:59

all I heard . That was all I knew . I knew nothing about

5:01

Pilates , which is funny because nowadays if

5:03

you're a dancer , I think you hear about Pilates

5:06

quite a lot . But at that time there

5:08

was no overlap between Pilates and dance when

5:10

I was a young person . So I

5:12

went and explored a Pilates class . I found

5:14

the movements to be very supportive

5:17

of both my need to feel

5:19

kind of safe and mobile

5:21

in my body but also just

5:23

being able to strengthen

5:26

in a way that actually supported my posture

5:28

and helped my back feel better . Um

5:30

, and so that was the

5:32

kind of beginning of my love affair with Pilates

5:35

as a participant , as a partaker

5:37

in Pilates and and that kind

5:39

of carried with me as I managed

5:42

ebbs and flows of my pain from that point

5:44

on , carried with me as I managed ebbs

5:46

and flows of my pain from that point

5:48

on . I mean , you know , herniations

5:54

heal but the brain doesn't always understand that like situation is safe . And I went

5:56

through , you know , other kinds of things like hip pain and and shoulder pain and

5:58

foot pain , and you know pain has kind of migrated

6:00

with me . It's like this , this little companion that

6:03

I've had . It's my longest , my longest

6:06

running friendship . So

6:09

you know , later on in my career

6:11

I I , like

6:13

I said , like you mentioned , I kind of reached

6:15

a point in my corporate career where I was really

6:17

not feeling well in my body or mentally

6:20

and so I decided

6:22

, you know , I want to find something I love

6:24

, that brings me joy , and

6:27

kind of rewrite

6:29

my career path based on fulfillment

6:31

instead of just kind of chasing

6:33

external validation . And

6:36

you know I said I've always loved

6:38

Pilates . You know , maybe I would like teaching it

6:40

and so that led me down that

6:42

path . It turned out I really liked it and

6:44

from the beginning for me because

6:47

Pilates was always a pain

6:49

management tool , it was not necessarily

6:51

like a fitness thing for me , it

6:53

was always how I manage my pain . I always

6:55

wanted to work with the clients who

6:58

had complex issues going on

7:00

and weren't there for the . You

7:02

know , give me the sculpted abs routine

7:05

. You know , like those were not the clients I wanted

7:07

to work with . So I've always predominantly worked

7:09

one-on-one , even when I was in a fitness studio

7:11

and folks

7:14

would come in because they hear about it , you know

7:16

, but it being a beneficial

7:18

modality for various things , and

7:20

they would come in with their aches and pains

7:22

, with joint replacement rehabilitation

7:25

, folks

7:28

with MS there's lots of research about improvements

7:30

with neurological conditions and balance with

7:32

Pilates . So

7:45

those are the folks who would come in seeking care and they would end up with

7:47

me because I was kind of coming to terms with my relationship with disordered eating

7:49

for so many decades and being inside an exercise space , a fitness aesthetic like

7:52

, even though there was a lot of good things happening

7:54

there around supporting people on their pain

7:56

journey , it was ultimately an aesthetically

7:59

oriented fitness space

8:01

, and I felt like I couldn't

8:04

reconcile

8:06

in myself my values

8:09

around all bodies being able to be healthy

8:11

bodies and all bodies being

8:13

able to be active and mobile bodies and

8:15

this kind of pressure to walk in the door

8:17

looking a certain way , and I couldn't jive that . So

8:20

I sought to create

8:22

a space that was

8:25

, you know , not only geared

8:28

towards pain as the

8:30

front of the point

8:32

of being here , you know , not just like we do exercise

8:35

, but also to make it an environment where

8:37

people understand that they are

8:46

welcome here and that their body

8:48

is deserving of movement , regardless

8:50

of the size or shape

8:52

or , you know , abilities and all

8:54

those things like getting rid of all

8:57

of the obstacles we put in front

8:59

of people who are trying to get active

9:02

and and and in other

9:04

standard spaces , and so that is

9:06

where the kind of the heart of the

9:08

movement remedies . You know , vision

9:10

and mission really came together with

9:13

my own journey and experience

9:15

. I hope that gave

9:17

you that I know it's a bit longer of an answer but that's

9:19

the background .

9:20

Yeah , no , that that was really great , great . And I

9:22

think one thing that just stood out to me too

9:24

was , um , that Pilates

9:27

. I think back , you know , maybe

9:29

years ago I think , when Pilates suddenly

9:31

became , or you had never really heard of Pilates

9:33

, and then suddenly it's like a , it became

9:35

like more of a thing , but , like

9:37

I think any of these modalities

9:41

yoga , pilates , like

9:43

there there's like a oh

9:47

, I don't know what , what you know , like it's an

9:49

aesthetic an aesthetic yes , I know

9:51

you had said that before right and aesthetic , that you

9:54

know , suddenly you have to be really

9:56

fit and in shape and at

9:58

a certain body size and it gets real . It's

10:00

really intimidating , especially

10:02

and I get this like when you want

10:05

to go and use it therapeutically

10:08

or pain management to get

10:10

yourself stronger and it just and I

10:12

so I definitely remember

10:14

that too I mean , it still goes on

10:16

. You know like , yoga studios , I know

10:18

, around me are like I would

10:20

never walk in those doors because

10:23

you either you better be like , fit and like

10:25

, really like , great looking

10:27

, and you know like you , you know you just have to fit like the

10:29

certain mold . So I love that

10:31

you are putting the , the

10:34

pain management in front of

10:36

. You know like , and then you , you still get

10:38

fit , you know , but it's that's

10:40

secondary and of course that would

10:42

happen if you were , you

10:45

know , dedicated to Pilates . But it's really

10:47

about pain management first .

10:50

Yeah , and it's so much about the language that we use too

10:52

, because I think , like you even mentioned in the beginning

10:54

, about kind of struggles

10:56

you've had with certain spaces or this

10:58

sense that like maybe you're going to show

11:00

up and you're going to feel like you can't do the class

11:02

the way that everyone else is doing it , or you're going to be this

11:04

kind of outlier , or you're going to

11:06

be given the , like remedial version of

11:09

the fitness class and that doesn't feel good

11:11

, especially as we age and we already feel like

11:13

we're being kind of sidelined by society

11:15

. That doesn't feel great in

11:17

the body and in your experience

11:19

. And so I think walking in knowing that

11:21

, like you know , having

11:24

different challenges in your body is actually the norm

11:26

and frankly it is the norm Like people

11:28

are hurting all over the place , chronic

11:31

conditions face . Like 60% of

11:33

people will face a chronic condition of some kind

11:35

, and 20% or more of

11:37

people have chronic pain , of adults have

11:39

chronic pain in this country . So it's actually

11:41

really really common , but it gets

11:43

treated in these wellness spaces as the

11:45

sort of outlier no-transcript

12:18

, but just fitness neutral .

12:20

I mean it's you , can . It

12:22

sounds like you can come in with really any

12:26

level of fitness because you're , because really

12:28

the first objective is

12:30

to figure out how

12:32

to work with your pain well

12:34

and it takes so much courage and

12:36

I feel like you know we just have to congratulate

12:39

people for even walking in the door .

12:41

You know , I mean it's hard and

12:43

so feeling comfortable in our bodies

12:45

is a privilege . I think it's hard for most

12:47

people and and so like why

12:50

not try and help people feel comfortable in their

12:52

bodies first and not make

12:54

you know the changing or the augmentation

12:56

of the body the first thing ? I mean , how many times

12:59

have we walked into new

13:01

exercise spaces and it's kind of like

13:03

, okay , here's the , the on

13:05

a purse or whatever they're called . You know

13:07

, like we're going to have you hold this thing and we're going to tell

13:09

you what your body fat percentage is . It's like you just

13:11

made eight assumptions about my goals , like

13:15

nobody said that that was part of you know the

13:17

requirements for being active and it's

13:19

infuriating .

13:20

Yeah , I , I totally

13:22

, 100% agree with you , and so I

13:24

think what you're doing is really is

13:28

really fantastic and really different

13:30

. You know than I mean , I live in Fairfield

13:33

County , you know . So there's just

13:35

, there's an aesthetic thing

13:37

happening here that maybe you

13:39

know other parts of the country or not , but that

13:42

, so that's really .

13:43

And it's also as we would argue , and I don't know if you want

13:45

to go down this path , but I mean it's also an unhealthy

13:47

aesthetic , like actually it's

13:49

actually not healthy to force yourself into

13:52

that . You know like we , we put it on a pedestal

13:54

as what health looks like , but it's it's

13:56

, it's an ideal . That isn't , doesn't line up with

13:58

the reality . And , and I want to think

14:00

, I want us to be thinking about health and wellness as like

14:02

feeling good in your body , feeling

14:05

feeling that you can , feeling that you

14:07

can live the life you want to live as

14:09

fully as possible , as possible , regardless

14:12

of of what pants are wearing when you do it

14:14

.

14:15

That's fantastic . I hope that you know I

14:17

and I'm just hoping that that becomes

14:19

like a bigger movement

14:21

, you know , and and just keeps

14:23

growing . I wanted

14:26

to just go back to your

14:28

childhood a little bit , because what do

14:30

you feel like are the traits

14:34

of chronic

14:36

pain ? How do people , you know , do

14:38

you feel like people fit into a mold of

14:40

you know who gets into

14:42

like the chronic pain

14:45

loop . You

14:47

know that it gets difficult to get out of .

14:48

Yeah , I mean , I can speak from my experience and some

14:50

of what I've researched , but certainly like not

14:53

a clinician . So quick disclaimer . But

14:55

I think that there's

14:57

a couple things there's we have to recognize

15:00

. First , that pain is

15:02

a signal from the brain . Right Pain

15:05

is the brain saying I'm

15:07

in danger or my physical body is

15:10

in danger . So that

15:12

may be a real thing , or it may not

15:14

be a real thing , but that's to the brain

15:17

, it's real and so it creates pain . So

15:20

there's the saying that

15:22

fear is the fuel of pain

15:24

. So having fear is

15:26

a big part of that , because it creates this

15:29

sort of code red

15:31

situation in the body where the nervous system is

15:33

, like particularly sensitized to what's happening

15:35

around it . Now you can end up in that state

15:37

for any number of reasons . You

15:40

know . I think in my case I had a lot of

15:42

anxiety growing up . You

15:44

may be in an environment

15:47

you feel unsafe in as a young person or

15:49

even as an older person . I

15:51

think that there's also , and there

15:53

is research around folks just having

15:55

a different level , a different threshold

15:57

of sensitivity to sensory

15:59

processing . So like for some

16:02

people , loud noises are just really intolerable

16:04

you know things like that

16:06

and for other people you know they're not , and so

16:08

I think I identify as someone

16:11

who , you know , I get kind

16:13

of overloaded in certain situations where

16:15

there's sensory , really

16:17

high level of sensory stimulation , so

16:19

like shopping malls used to give me a really big

16:21

headache , like I just couldn't deal with like the noise

16:23

and the music and the people and like I . So

16:26

I think that if your threshold for

16:28

kind of reaching a state of , you

16:30

know , danger is a little higher , you're

16:33

probably going to end up responding

16:35

with pain , and so you can . You can sort of

16:37

end up with this like baseline . That's

16:39

a little higher than , like you know , the

16:41

average bear or the person next to you

16:44

. And then if you

16:46

have , you know , multiple injuries

16:48

, you are at risk

16:50

of developing chronic pain

16:52

, depending on how your body

16:54

kind of resolves that after the fact

16:56

. So I think there's

17:00

lots of young people who play sports and

17:02

may end up having a bunch of injuries and then

17:05

they develop a sensitivity

17:07

in that area repeatedly . So every

17:09

time they injure something else , the

17:14

pain returns in that place because the brain just kind of like makes a connection

17:16

between an injury that happened

17:18

somewhere or maybe

17:20

a force on the body and

17:22

then pain elsewhere . But

17:25

there's also research and

17:27

Alan Gordon in his book the Way Out he's

17:30

the one who does the pain reprocessing

17:32

therapy talks talks a lot about

17:34

overachievers and people pleasers

17:37

and folks who are self-critical

17:39

. People

17:53

I work with who have chronic pain and who also are , like , totally convinced that it's their

17:55

responsibility to like solve everyone else's problems is like pretty much like a bullseye

17:57

, right . I mean so many

17:59

of us , for whatever reason conditioning

18:01

or you

18:03

know who knows have come up with this

18:05

personality type where we're

18:08

internalizing other people's demands

18:10

and are extremely

18:12

critical movement perfectionists and

18:14

that again can create a

18:16

sense of , I think , on safety

18:19

, lack of safety in the body , an

18:21

overstimulated nervous system and

18:24

, congruent with that , I have

18:26

a theory from my own work

18:28

that chronic dieting also

18:30

is a potential risk

18:32

factor for chronic pain , and

18:36

the reason for that is because

18:39

I believe the people

18:41

that I work with who have chronic pain

18:43

, one of the most difficult hurdles we usually

18:45

have to overcome when it comes

18:47

to moving is the fact

18:49

that they have a very difficult time

18:51

actually being in their bodies

18:54

, being present in their bodies , actually

18:56

sensing what's happening in

18:59

their bodies as they're moving . So

19:01

they're often reliant on a story they've

19:03

been telling themselves about what they can or can't

19:05

do , often a story

19:07

about I'm not strong enough for that , I

19:10

don't , my balance is no good , and

19:12

then I will construct little mini experiments

19:14

to kind of challenge those hypotheses and they're

19:16

very often wrong . Folks are usually much

19:18

more capable in their bodies than

19:20

they think they are because of the stories

19:23

and the narratives they have about

19:25

their pain being a limiter . And

19:28

those same people who are unable to actually

19:30

experience their true

19:32

physical capabilities are often

19:34

people who over many years

19:36

learn to ignore hunger cues

19:38

because no one has gone on a restrictive

19:41

diet without having to like overlook

19:43

that growl . That

19:45

is like evolution neurobiology

19:47

telling you like eat or you're going to die

19:50

. And so

19:52

I think , when we like repeatedly

19:54

ignore and ignore and ignore

19:56

and teach ourselves to

19:59

that , that whatever the body is telling

20:01

us is happening is , is not a physical

20:03

reality , it's kind of a . It's a , it's

20:05

a mirage . Then we

20:07

get into older , our older lives , and

20:10

we have lost our connection

20:12

to our physical body

20:14

and we're very detached . So getting

20:16

folks to reattach is a huge

20:18

part of healing . And I

20:20

believe diet culture and the diet

20:23

that you know yo-yo dieting and weight

20:25

cycling and all the things that many of us experience

20:27

in an attempt to reach that unhealthy

20:29

aesthetic . They just contribute to

20:32

that detachment .

20:33

Yeah , that's a really good point

20:35

. I mean , I think dieting , chronic dieting

20:38

completely disconnects you from

20:40

your body , tells

20:42

you , like you said , your

20:44

hunger is . You're ignoring

20:46

your hunger signals . You're not

20:48

eating when you're physically hungry . You're not

20:50

ignoring your hunger signals . You're not eating when

20:53

you're physically hungry , you're not . And

20:58

that's just the opposite of self-care and just and it doesn't . It just doesn't

21:00

teach you how to just stay connected to an intuitively

21:03

eat and and so I could see

21:05

then that relationship to chronic pain

21:07

. So it sounds like you have a lot of clients who

21:10

have

21:13

this association that

21:16

would be really , really interesting to

21:18

to have more research done

21:20

on that , on that connection . I would love

21:22

to to see that . But I mean , it just sounds

21:24

like from your experience you've

21:27

you've definitely have

21:29

witnessed that .

21:30

Yeah , and it's the language people use , like even

21:32

recently someone said someone who is

21:35

has shared with me that that they're in in eating

21:37

disorder recovery said

21:39

you know , we were doing something , um

21:42

, relatively challenging that

21:44

required body weight , um support , and

21:47

I could just sort of tell that they

21:49

were nervous . And so I said you know , can

21:52

you say more about what you're feeling right now

21:54

? You know , does this feel scary

21:56

to you in some way ? And the person's response

21:58

was I don't feel , I don't trust

22:00

my body to hold me , I don't trust

22:02

my body to support me . And

22:05

, and again I think that's that's

22:07

like a , it's a huge kind

22:09

of , it's sort of a form

22:11

of body dysmorphia , right when you

22:13

visualize yourself

22:15

. You see yourself as this weak , unhealthy

22:18

, like unfit kind

22:20

of thing

22:22

. That's not the reality of the physical

22:25

vessel that you're in , but you've become so

22:27

and of course , having

22:29

gone through this , we understand that you become so attached

22:32

to the kind of projection

22:34

of yourself that's in your head

22:36

that you don't even know the one

22:38

that you're in . And then I think there's also

22:41

a lot of kind

22:43

of self-loathing and resentment that happens

22:45

in that , and so , again , it just pushes

22:48

you . It pushes you towards the projection

22:50

rather than the reality , and

22:53

so I think that that definitely

22:55

creates a sense of and in this particular person's

22:57

particular case , it was really a sense of of

22:59

I'm not safe , Like I'm , I'm

23:02

going to fall , or I you know I'm not

23:04

, I'm not going to be able to hold myself Like

23:06

like you don't trust your body or you're angry

23:08

with your body . And since we talked about fear being

23:10

the fuel of pain , like surely

23:13

all those experiences are only going to

23:15

contribute to

23:17

a pain experience . And if you are someone

23:19

who maybe has , you

23:22

know , a mild condition that would lead to

23:24

pain , then it would , of course , exacerbate

23:26

it right , it would turn up the volume so much . So

23:29

sometimes we're dealing with a pain

23:31

that arises out of something that would

23:33

be minor in a body where the person

23:35

felt very safe already

23:37

, right . So we're kind of setting ourselves up for

23:39

failure with that .

23:41

You mentioned very briefly that you

23:43

experienced an eating disorder . While

23:47

I mean do you feel like ? I mean

23:49

, is this something you can relate your

23:51

pain to ?

23:53

100% . It's really interesting

23:55

because I mean and I've never been diagnosed

23:57

as having an eating disorder , but I've went through

23:59

cycles of restriction

24:01

, extreme restriction , and then , you

24:04

know , binging . You know , I think

24:06

, because I never looked small no one really

24:08

ever considered it . You know

24:10

what I mean and that's also a problem we know exists

24:12

in the medical system . But

24:15

what's really interesting is I just

24:17

reached this point maybe it was because

24:19

I was about to turn 40 , I don't know and

24:25

I was like surely this is not going to continue

24:27

to be my life , spending

24:29

my Sunday packing foods into tiny

24:31

little color-coded containers , when

24:33

I could be like reading a book or

24:35

doing something else , or like not being

24:37

able to even focus on my tasks

24:40

at work , because all I could think about

24:42

was the things that I wanted to eat or the things that

24:44

I felt guilt about eating , or the things

24:46

that I like wished I could eat . Or someone else was eating

24:48

and I was like mad that they got to

24:50

it and I couldn't eat . You know , it was just kind of like always about

24:53

food and I was like this

24:55

is not a way to live . You know , I can't deal

24:57

with this anymore . And at the time I was also

24:59

in PT physical

25:01

therapy for major

25:04

hip pain , pelvic floor pain , shortly

25:08

after I got plantar fasciitis . I mean

25:10

, there was just like a whole lot of stuff going on . So

25:12

I basically

25:14

started you know , I don't know finding

25:16

all of these influencers who had

25:18

great books , like Christy Harrison and

25:22

of course the , the Triboli , and I

25:24

always forget the names but the intuitive eating book . You

25:28

know , I just kind of went through book after book after book

25:30

after book and every one of them was saying the same thing

25:32

. And it's always that Minnesota starvation

25:34

experiment always gets me every time how they

25:36

put these men on a 1600 calorie a day

25:38

diet , which is like above what I was allowed

25:40

to eat on my diet at the time , and they were going

25:43

crazy . They were like

25:45

turning into super unstable humans

25:47

. And I said

25:49

, okay , so this makes sense , right , it just makes

25:51

sense that this is making me feel crazy . So

25:53

I started slowly dismantling

25:55

my dieting

25:57

norms , my rules , my food

25:59

rules , my food rules that I had had

26:02

that were passed down to me from generations

26:04

of food rule lovers , you know , over

26:06

over the generations of women in my family

26:09

. And it was hard it's . I mean , I'm

26:11

still , I still have struggled with that , and this is

26:13

four years now , because it was

26:15

really at the end of the quarantine . But

26:18

what I noticed is that as

26:20

I started taking this apart and

26:22

I did put on a lot of weight

26:24

I probably put on 20%

26:27

of my body weight or something more than

26:30

that , and

26:32

that was hard at first to accept

26:34

because I was certain that that meant I was going

26:36

to be unhealthy . But since

26:38

then I've been able to return

26:40

to lifting weights at a very

26:42

heavy level . I've been able to return

26:45

to jogging . I've been

26:47

able to go back to doing things in

26:49

my body that I hadn't done since I was like

26:51

20 . And it was

26:53

, you know , slow process , but like

26:55

it really just kind of reframed

26:57

for me , like wow , I wasn't I

26:59

mean , I had pain and everything

27:01

going on , but like I also had

27:03

this like incredible , like

27:05

constrictive way of living that

27:08

was just limiting my beliefs about myself

27:10

and also just tying my body

27:12

up in knots , to be honest with you . And

27:14

now I'm in my forties and

27:17

going through perimenopause , which is another fun

27:19

topic , but I feel

27:22

better in my body than I have in

27:24

a decade at least . So

27:26

like what does I mean that ? I mean again this I'm

27:28

an N of one . So for whatever that's worth

27:30

like that has been my experience

27:32

that piecing that apart and taking taking

27:35

away the stories about

27:37

my body's failure you

27:39

know to be what I needed in my body's worthlessness

27:42

because of the way that worth was defined

27:45

in my you know , in the narrow

27:47

framework I was given Once I

27:49

kind of took that apart . It brought

27:51

a ton of freedom and relief and

27:54

possibilities for me that

27:56

I think are very tied to the fact that

27:58

my pain levels are so low I

28:00

mean , like I said , lower they

28:02

have been in decades .

28:04

Yeah , I mean it sounds like you let go of

28:06

just the rigidity , right

28:08

, and the rules and the and the , probably

28:11

beating yourself up if you didn't do it perfectly

28:13

and all of that

28:15

, and , and I mean I can relate to that

28:17

too . I mean I grew up with dieters

28:19

all over the place , you know , in my family

28:22

, and I was on a diet at my

28:24

first diet at 11 and

28:26

just hating

28:28

my body for years

28:30

, you know , and , yeah , did

28:33

, did , did , did my chronic pain go

28:35

hand in hand . I mean I have to , you know , I have to

28:37

like , really like , think about that . But I mean

28:39

I know I have other other instances where

28:41

, like I mean I remember being in chronic pain and

28:43

, like my teens also neck pain

28:45

and stuff . But I and I also had some other like

28:47

traumatic experiences that I had gone

28:50

through so but the , so but

28:52

the being on the diets and like

28:54

restricted . I mean it is so punishing

28:56

and I could definitely see this

28:58

link between that

29:00

and , you know , in a pain link . I mean that doesn't

29:02

mean that everybody experiences who

29:04

has chronic pain experiences issues

29:07

with their dieting

29:10

and , you know , weight loss and eating

29:13

disorders , but it certainly

29:15

seems like that can be part of the connection

29:17

.

29:18

When it wouldn't matter so much if

29:20

it weren't for the fact that the medical system

29:23

is continuing to tell people that the answer

29:25

to chronic pain is weight loss . So

29:27

, like , not only are we ignoring

29:29

the fact that we are encouraging

29:32

people to have a really combative

29:34

, adversarial relationship with their

29:36

own physical vessels from a young age

29:38

, but we're also telling them to exacerbate

29:41

that as their

29:43

bodies change . And again , especially being a woman

29:46

in my forties , you know going through

29:48

lots of changes . I mean even still

29:50

. Like , like they're bringing back all the feelings

29:52

that I had as a younger person , because

29:55

the first thing anybody wants to talk about is my

29:57

belly fat . It's like what

29:59

? Like like

30:02

this , this can't be the most important

30:04

. It isn't . We know the research already

30:06

shows that it's not the biggest contributor to my mortality

30:08

. So , like , why are we talking

30:11

about that ? Why are we diagnosing that ? Why

30:13

, and again , why are fitness spaces and wellness

30:15

spaces all getting

30:17

so hung up on ? Even when I get , you

30:19

know , instagram ads about

30:21

you know , the menopause journey

30:23

? Like they're always oriented around which supplement

30:26

is going to suddenly shrink my you

30:28

know my body ? And it's like I feel like

30:30

I'm having deja vu . Like this is not . Like we're having

30:32

this conversation again when we

30:34

shouldn't have been having it in the first place

30:36

. And now people are in pain

30:38

and they're focused on the wrong thing

30:41

, and that's why it's like

30:43

. No , the focus is to move

30:45

. The focus is to move , to move , to move

30:47

. Everyone in a body can move

30:49

and you don't need to have a certain size

30:52

, and what I've learned is that my size

30:54

of my body actually doesn't limit

30:56

my movement Like holy cow .

31:06

I had no idea . Yeah , I know Well , you know good point about

31:08

the menopause , like ads and everything . I

31:10

mean that is out of control and and what an interesting

31:12

. You know that's an interesting connection too , because

31:14

you're first you go through

31:17

puberty , right , and you're in teenager

31:19

and like you're starting to feel really

31:21

maybe awful about your body

31:23

or like comparing , and then we go full

31:25

circle and now we're in our like forties and fifties

31:27

and and it's like second puberty , you know , because now we're losing in reverse , that we're in our

31:29

like forties and fifties and and it's like second , second puberty , you

31:31

know , because now we're losing in reverse

31:33

, that we're losing our estrogen and

31:36

I believe this is where

31:38

a lot of eating

31:40

disorders maybe they've been

31:42

dormant for a little while kind of come

31:45

, start to come back , because the pressure

31:47

to lose weight , lose

31:49

the belly fat , the

31:52

meno belly , and

31:54

it's confusing and

31:56

I think it just stirs up so much

31:58

emotion and I

32:00

think , no surprise this is , I

32:02

think , a big time for people in chronic

32:04

pain around this age 100%

32:08

. Is that from your hormones ? Is

32:10

that a connection too ? It is it

32:12

that we're just having

32:15

to refocus

32:17

in on our bodies ?

32:19

Well , Heather , if they did any medical research on women , we

32:21

would have more answers about that . But exactly

32:24

, yeah , Unfortunately we're dealing

32:26

with , like you know , research done by on

32:28

white male bodies for the past 50 years

32:30

. But but , yeah , 100% , I mean

32:32

there's definitely a big uptick in pain

32:35

in this time .

32:36

Yeah , I , I totally , I

32:39

think so . So

32:41

you mentioned Alan Gordon

32:43

. He wrote the book the Way Out I . That's

32:45

one of my all time favorite books and and

32:47

I know about the Pain Psychology Center

32:49

all-time favorite

32:52

books and and I know about the pain psychology center because I've that's sort

32:54

of how I got into doing a lot of work on for myself in

32:56

chronic pain . But you said you

32:58

have written a book as well yes

33:01

, I have let's talk about

33:03

that , because I that's . It sounds like a great

33:05

book and I love the title you're meant to move

33:07

, because I really do believe that too . I think

33:09

that people think I'm

33:12

in pain and I can't move

33:14

like others , but I

33:16

think our bodies are meant to move , right . I mean

33:18

, we are wired for that . So tell

33:21

me a little bit about your book .

33:23

Yeah . So I

33:25

wrote the book for a couple of reasons

33:27

. First of all , I mean I do love to write , but first

33:30

of all I wanted

33:32

to kind of process three decades

33:34

worth of dealing with chronic pain and

33:37

kind of help people who were

33:39

in the position I was in a while ago maybe

33:42

get to where I got a little faster If

33:45

I could share my story and then

33:47

also what I've observed with

33:49

my clients . There's a lot of anecdotes in it

33:51

of client stories

33:53

and experiences and their own words sometimes

33:55

about this

33:57

kind of trying to rewrite the narrative

34:00

that we have about our ability

34:02

to move and how pain

34:04

factors in there . And

34:06

one of the major hurdles

34:09

for me , especially after the disc herniation

34:11

it was a list of don'ts Don't

34:14

bend at the waist , don't sit for too long

34:16

, don't twist your body . And

34:19

in hindsight I think a lot of times

34:21

what happens is they give you guidance

34:24

in the acute phase and it sticks with

34:26

us , and so sometimes we keep doing the acute phase

34:28

long after it's healed with

34:32

us and so sometimes we keep doing the acute phase long after it's healed . But the reality is the research

34:34

is very , very clear now that for the most part you want to move your

34:36

joints , like immediately . I mean think about

34:38

hip replacement , folks who , they like , have climb

34:40

a stairs in like 24

34:42

hours . I mean healing

34:45

is really tied to moving . And

34:47

so that was advice

34:49

, clinical advice I was given repeatedly

34:52

that set me back years because

34:54

of the fear that it generated and

34:56

and kind of , and again , just

34:58

like with the pain or processing . You

35:00

know stuff too . It's like your

35:03

, your brain , like links . A connection

35:05

between bending over is how I hurt myself

35:07

. Therefore I should never bend over . And now

35:09

you've eliminated a really important movement from your vocabulary

35:12

. So I wanted to take

35:14

all of those , all of the bad information

35:16

I received and what I've learned since then , and package

35:18

it up for folks who they who could

35:20

then take it and really have like a step-by-step

35:22

guide . Because the second reason I wrote it is that

35:24

I am a person , a single person , in

35:27

a brick and mortar studio in Boston and I can

35:29

only see so many people . But I

35:31

feel like there's a lot of work that people can do on

35:33

their own . I mean , as magnificent as Pilates

35:35

and the equipment are , you know

35:37

, there is a lot you can do just working

35:40

by yourself . And so it's written in such a way

35:42

that it would be a 12 to 14

35:44

week process where you can go through

35:46

all the different stages with

35:48

a lesson and activities for

35:51

each week , and it comes with a journal

35:53

that comes with it and some you know recommended

35:55

movement exercise videos , and

35:57

then by the end , you should be able to design

36:00

a movement program for yourself

36:02

, the one that's catered to not

36:04

just what your body feels up for in

36:07

this season , but also like

36:09

what your goal is , and I don't mean your goal

36:11

like I need to do 10 pushups , but like I

36:14

want to be able to to climb the

36:16

steps of the Cinque Terre trails or

36:18

whatever I , you know , I want to be able

36:20

to carry my groceries across

36:23

across the parking lot like really realistic

36:25

goals that have to do with how we live and

36:28

I . That's how I think our movement programs should

36:30

be designed . They should be designed around

36:32

keeping us functional into

36:34

our older age , like that's the point

36:36

. So that's the way

36:38

you're meant to move is structured . It tackles

36:40

all the factors around

36:42

why pain persists in our bodies

36:45

. Really , we're trying to remove that

36:47

self-blame and the shame that comes

36:49

with the message of you

36:51

know . Chronic pain is therefore somehow

36:53

your problem or your fault because

36:55

of you know , maybe choices which

36:58

, I think again , the weight loss rhetoric

37:00

really does in the medical system . So

37:02

so yeah , I'm really excited

37:04

about it being out in the world and hope that

37:07

people are able to find that they

37:09

can chart a new path toward an active life

37:11

. Because , you know , not only is movement

37:13

regular movement , I believe

37:16

, the most important health promoting behavior

37:18

that we can , that we can commit ourselves

37:20

to , but it also

37:23

, you know , is really good for us , even

37:25

when we're hurting because of the chemical

37:27

. You know chemical benefits , inflammation

37:30

benefits , cardiovascular disease

37:32

prevention , I mean autoimmune

37:35

disease support , like every single

37:37

system in our body

37:39

reacts really well

37:41

to movement . So it's not just you're meant to move

37:43

, like get off the couch

37:45

, because that is kind of part of it , like we have we've

37:47

built a modern sedentary society and we need

37:49

to rewrite the rules but

37:52

it's also you're meant to move in the sense that

37:54

finding any form of movement will

37:56

benefit , like reap rewards for

37:58

, for all of your , your physical systems

38:01

, even if the movement is not , you know , what we would define

38:03

classically as exercise .

38:06

Yeah , well , that's so , that's great , cause I was going

38:08

to say I know you're in a brick and mortar business

38:10

in Boston and I wish that you

38:12

lived closer to me . I mean not that

38:14

far away , but but I would

38:17

love to have you here

38:19

with me because I would be signing up in a second

38:21

. So that's , that's so great , that you

38:24

have a book with a program in it

38:26

and that people can go and do that

38:28

on their own . I also know about

38:30

like that , that feeling , um , this this side

38:32

note I just heard you say you know that to

38:35

to get out of the feeling

38:37

like it's my fault , like the pain's my fault

38:39

, because I lived with that for years

38:42

, years . You know that , like I

38:44

, it's the , the

38:47

perfectionist people

38:49

like I mean you know all of that

38:51

, that just felt like I definitely

38:53

did something wrong , you know , and so therefore

38:57

, it's on my fault . And how

38:59

am I supposed to fix this ? And I mean it

39:01

. Just , you know , and that's a whole your

39:04

spiral too . So you're

39:06

yeah , so your book sounds really

39:09

actionable and

39:11

gives people the . You know

39:13

the steps to .

39:15

Yeah , and I think it . You know it's a start of a journey

39:18

, like I think it's . You can get through it relatively

39:20

quickly if you were to sit and read a cover to cover , but

39:22

it really shares the re , the research behind

39:24

a lot of what I do and , again

39:26

, the stories behind what I do . And if

39:28

folks are curious , even for yourself , um , and

39:31

want to dk at

39:33

movementremediesorg , I'm happy to share

39:35

a pass for my

39:38

restorative Pilates mat class

39:40

, which is available virtually three times

39:42

a week . So I just think it's

39:44

important that people find what speaks to them

39:46

in terms of being active and not

39:48

let those , the fear

39:50

, a lot of fear , the fear , the

39:53

guilt , the not , it not being enough . Don't

39:55

let all those , those obstacles

39:57

that we build up in our minds get in the way

39:59

of what is going to really benefit

40:02

you in the in the long run . And

40:04

I know it's a fight . I mean , it's a fight for me . I have a

40:06

room full of equipment and it's a fight for me to get moving

40:08

sometimes , but I'm always glad when I

40:10

do .

40:11

Yeah , that's great , so people can connect

40:13

with you online and take a class with you a math

40:15

class , Okay that's great . Good

40:18

Well

40:23

, DK , it was so nice talking with you and really I mean I

40:26

want to keep this conversation going about the connection

40:28

between dieting and

40:30

body image and disordered

40:33

eating and chronic pain

40:35

, because I think it's really important and

40:37

you're doing great work . I think it's just

40:39

, you know , fantastic . I

40:42

will put all the links for you

40:44

in the show notes so people can get in touch

40:46

with you . And thank you

40:48

again , my pleasure , Thanks for having

40:51

me .