0:19

what's up ladies and gentlemen boys and girls around the world

0:21

i would like to welcome you back to the real talk

0:23

with zoo be podcast now

0:25

today's episode is going to be extremely

0:28

interesting and insightful i'm

0:31

going to beat talking to mathias

0:33

does met who is a clinical

0:35

psychologist and he is

0:37

also the man who popularized the term

0:40

mass formation so we're going to go deep

0:42

into this he's got a brand new book

0:44

out which is called the psychology

0:46

of totalitarianism so we're

0:48

gonna get deep into all of this so mathias

0:51

welcome to the show

0:52

thank you ruby

0:54

awesome so i've done a brief intro there but for

0:56

people who are not familiar with you please

0:58

tell them a little bit about yourself

1:00

no sir why i

1:03

am professor and

1:05

clinical psychology at against university

1:07

in belgium

1:08

i also

1:11

or have a master degree and statistics

1:13

and that was actually how

1:16

i thought i could be interested in the quran a crisis

1:19

as dot of the study the statistics a little bit

1:21

then from the beginning from the first days

1:23

of the crisis i the impression

1:25

that the the statistics dramatically

1:27

overrated the danger of those of the corona

1:30

virus i thought of the be interested

1:32

in how it was possible doesn't entire

1:34

population low blood

1:38

both into a narrative that in many respects

1:40

was utterly absurd blatantly wrong

1:43

or and i after

1:46

a few months i started to

1:48

who

1:49

turn into crisis from the perspective of

1:51

mass makes the terms used over than

1:53

a i started to believe that what was happening

1:56

and then our society was

1:58

a large scale process of mass the nation

2:00

which is typically approaches that makes people

2:02

rather could he blind ah

2:05

i'm

2:06

for

2:07

everything that goes against

2:09

the narratives the group they belong to

2:11

believes in the the

2:15

to an extreme extent so and from

2:17

somewhere in august twenty twenty

2:20

or thirty my first opinion paper about

2:22

masturbation and from there the

2:25

little theory spreads around

2:27

rules

2:28

your them so for people who are

2:30

familiar with the term mess formation

2:33

am aware for some of my listeners this may be

2:35

they're very first time hearing that term

2:37

can you define what mass formation

2:40

means

2:40

as i can i

2:43

can you know you refer to as the book

2:45

i wrote an invite of the book is her the

2:47

psychology of authoritarianism and authoritarianism

2:50

when we are talking about authoritarianism

2:52

beyond think about the soviet union and

2:54

nazi germany and that's wrong that's

2:56

where the first examples of

2:58

of rebellion stage on

3:01

m in

3:03

two thousand and seventeen and fortitude the

3:05

thing about this phenomenon of totalitarianism

3:08

because we have the impression that there

3:11

was a new kind of funny to begin this emerging

3:13

and muslim thought i [unk] society

3:16

are not a fascist party thirteen doesn't

3:18

suggest what instance nazi germany but

3:20

the technocratic the money that he and his me

3:22

check which is baseball the

3:26

kind of highly technologically controlled

3:28

society that by a

3:31

bureaucrat some technocrats and

3:34

i as i started to be interested be

3:36

interested question was authoritarian

3:38

state exactly is and what distinguishes

3:41

a pathetic that instinct from classical dictatorships

3:44

and the yeah the difference

3:46

between the two rascal dictatorship and

3:49

authoritarian state is situated at

3:51

the at the psychological level

3:53

the

3:55

that's good if they to sit ship relies

3:57

on a very primitive psychological mechanisms

3:59

the just really the fact that the population

4:01

is scared of a small group or dictatorial

4:04

regime of the aggressive

4:06

potential of this of this dictatorial

4:08

regime that's why i think it

4:11

accepts that this this this this regimes

4:13

imposes its social contract

4:16

unilaterally to

4:18

society is

4:21

based

4:25

on the mass

4:28

of nations which is a specific kind

4:30

of group formation that

4:33

is characterized by the fact that people

4:36

who were in grip

4:38

of this, kind of group formation of

4:40

this mass formation difficulty,

4:43

as i just mentioned already, the

4:46

leave fanatically and the narratives

4:49

and then the belief system of the group yeah

4:52

then that even them and the narrative

4:54

becomes over the upsurge they

4:56

will continue to believe in it to give an

4:59

example in iran during the revolution

5:01

and iran and night and seventy nine or

5:04

, lot a lot skill muslim nations

5:06

emerged in the country and

5:09

people started to believe that the

5:11

earth the portraits of the picture of

5:13

of the ayatollah was considered the leader

5:15

of the leader of the months at that moment was

5:18

printed on the surface of the moon and everything

5:20

there was a full moon and the sky

5:22

people work standing in the streets

5:25

pointing at the moon shedding each other were

5:27

deported of that ayatollah exactly

5:29

was printed on the surface of the it's good

5:32

for them so that's

5:34

, like i could give an endless list of historical

5:37

examples showing how absurd

5:39

the narratives a modicum

5:42

in a in a in a mouser an account

5:45

then a second characteristic of a mess we're making

5:47

desserts when people in

5:49

the grip of this process they become a rather

5:52

they become really did com

5:54

probably knievel and sacrifice

5:57

everything it was important to them

5:59

before the mess it seems as

6:01

if the another were anymore of their individual

6:03

interests common request again and

6:06

, as if they are willing to radically self

6:08

sacrifice that's one strange

6:11

a characteristic of phenomenon

6:13

of mercenaries and then the

6:16

third phone on a logical characteristic is

6:19

that when in a mess people

6:21

become a rather to be important

6:23

for this women's voices and in the

6:25

end they always send to stigmatize

6:28

everyone who doesn't go along

6:30

with the masses will doesn't buy and to the same

6:32

narrative as go home

6:41

the

6:45

going to be they do they are they had

6:48

eaten in a dumb a they do so

6:50

as if it is an ethical

6:52

duty to do so of ,

6:55

of all i'm asking me whether

6:57

i were talking about the crusades the witch

6:59

hunts this french revolution the

7:02

rise of the soviet union or drives nazi

7:04

germany are the didn't

7:06

mention any run which are referred

7:08

but i just referred to we'll see

7:11

the same time and time again

7:13

for instance twenty wrong i talked

7:15

to this to woman short of fish farming and

7:18

iraq as a woman and is wrong two

7:20

months ago and this this conversation between

7:22

me and her still available on the internet told

7:25

me that she was she

7:27

lived in iran during the revolution

7:30

the witness yes just seen her own

7:32

eyes have a mother who

7:34

have reported recently stated home

7:37

the road around the neck of her son

7:40

before he was him and how she

7:42

claimed to be ahead of and for doing so

7:45

happened go home muslim nation

7:47

people comet cruelties to everyone

7:50

was not loyal enough to the masses are the crowd

7:53

i didn't even have a commute the

7:57

to that is if the phantom a logical

7:59

characteristics

7:59

the mass within

8:02

damascus message as morning

8:05

because if you understand how much

8:07

images in the society you

8:09

also thought to understand but you can do

8:13

who

8:15

image on sunday

8:17

mass the made much is a kind

8:19

of group of a kind of mass hypnosis

8:21

the the mechanism is identical

8:23

to it does this sort of you understand

8:25

mechanism

8:27

you understand but you can do to prevent

8:29

the masses to go so deep

8:32

in the in the mass from mention they

8:36

have to eliminate everyone who doesn't go along with

8:38

it

8:39

though

8:41

if you want i dunno if we have time for bed with

8:43

a good right to describe different

8:45

though the mechanism of the masturbation and concisely

8:48

see i think that would be gray i was going to

8:50

ask is this mess formation is

8:52

this something that can happen

8:54

who any society in

8:56

any culture at any time

8:59

are there certain preliminary

9:01

characteristics that make it far

9:03

more likely to happen

9:05

there are there are there are certain

9:08

did , large scale master

9:10

mason to emerge society

9:12

has an error has to be in a specific condition

9:14

of the population has to be insist on this

9:17

and most

9:19

sandro characteristic of this condition

9:21

is that many people have to feel disconnected

9:24

the from their natural

9:27

and their social environment a

9:30

people have to be in what hundred or rent

9:33

one of the most important authors about

9:36

the authoritarian is most amazing

9:39

call socially other

9:41

might say they have to feel disconnected

9:44

from there and violin and

9:47

and that that that because he was the case just before the

9:49

current crisis for instance worldwide

9:51

over thirty percent of the people reported they

9:54

didn't have one meaningful relationship and

9:56

on a only connected to other people to the internet

9:59

as one exact

10:00

the

10:01

over the the soda population

10:03

was an excellent they to mess with me

10:06

well like just before the

10:09

current crisis now the second

10:11

finish this one's people feel certain to

10:13

disconnected from there and they

10:16

will typically so to be confronted with experiences

10:18

of lack of meaning making a lack of purpose

10:21

and and also that

10:23

was the case over sixty percent of the people

10:25

worldwide for instance reported

10:27

that they considered a job to be a so called

10:29

butcher which means a job

10:32

which their own opinion adam

10:35

adam meeting at all

10:36

the learned your mathias what where were those

10:39

those statistics you're quoting that thirty percent

10:41

and sixty percent

10:42

where are those from the

10:44

i described him in my in my book

10:47

and chapter a that things and they they are

10:49

the results of a gallup wolf all of

10:51

that have multiples i

10:53

think them or his goal posts there

10:56

are several the didn't

10:58

than and two thousand and seventeen for instance

11:01

the percent of the people reported to be defeated

11:04

social disconnected and sixty percent

11:06

the

11:07

the report the job to be boucher

11:10

job that wasn't two thousand and seventeen and

11:12

are the numbers even increase afterwards and

11:14

they say it is paul is paul

11:16

the entire world the guise of all my

11:18

fault a gallup gallup poll oswald

11:20

white foliage

11:22

it sounds it sounds surprising for

11:24

for western numbers it wouldn't surprise me

11:27

the across the entire world including

11:29

and i'm also on that surprises

11:31

me undies that's important

11:33

because important the

11:36

number of people who do social disconnected

11:38

from feel lonely as

11:40

, is is clearly correlated

11:42

to the level of industrialization and

11:44

technology use and a pumpkin so the more understood

11:47

as a demotic knowledge you use the more people

11:49

report a to be lonely

11:51

for instance and western europe and the the

11:55

them at the uk earth

11:58

recently appointed

11:59

the minister of loneliness because we recognize

12:02

how widespread the problem of loneliness

12:04

wasn't a country and enter and the

12:06

and his face

12:09

the are you a surgeon general

12:12

talk about the looming this epidemic there's

12:15

also that of is clear that more and more people

12:18

the ended up in an isolated state very

12:21

important what about the number of people

12:24

feeling moment you're feeling disconnected increase

12:28

the rather often hundred years just

12:30

clearly as a consequence of the

12:32

underthrown as a new technology use okay

12:36

so so let's continue on from

12:39

as she left let's go to

12:40

you said you really started thinking about this

12:42

a lot in twenty seventeen

12:45

so prior to the pandemic

12:47

and are forced lockdowns and stay at home

12:50

orders and masking and all of this

12:52

stuff people have been dealing with for the past two and

12:54

a half years what was it that you

12:56

were seeing in twenty seventeen that

12:59

made you take no and really

13:01

start seeing these conditions rising

13:04

yeah well there are more conditions the

13:06

medicines one more important conditions and and i

13:09

just noticed that all these conditions but right

13:11

the end of the worth the risk of mass animation in the

13:13

that we were at risk of a new topic today is

13:16

much was actually clear that the you could see

13:19

ah i'm or the grip of government

13:21

on the population became more and

13:23

more from how

13:25

the

13:26

the did a number of did this surveillance

13:29

was was rising in our society our

13:31

tax inspectors were allowed to to go

13:33

through all your email communication and know

13:35

you're all your phones maybe

13:39

we can clearly see that there

13:41

was more and more there was a tendency

13:44

in our society to for

13:47

a good to watch government that that

13:49

have had a feminine forward grip on its population

13:51

and the population itself as actually asking that

13:54

which is also typical prototype at in this one

13:56

hundred that earth's population so modem

13:58

or anxious asked

13:59

home

14:02

the there wasn't that there were these intrusions

14:05

in their privacy to like and

14:07

and and also like indeed in particular the psychological

14:09

conditions i was referring to the other the

14:11

loneliness the the

14:14

like of meeting making but also

14:17

the put in britain which is extremely important

14:20

a was fulfilled namely

14:22

that

14:23

people were more them are confronted with so

14:25

called free floating anxiety frustration

14:28

and aggression that means you kind of anxiety first

14:30

baseman the rest that , not connected

14:32

to a mental representations people feel anxious

14:35

frustrated and aggressive without knowing what

14:37

the few inches frustrated and aggressive far

14:39

as it does is an extremely

14:42

a vs mental states because if you feel

14:44

anxious and you don't know what you feel anxious for

14:46

you feel completely out of control and

14:49

this condition where the population

14:51

and this condition of meaning

14:53

making meaning look of connection

14:56

the mother free floating inside the from stream

14:58

frustration aggression something

15:01

very specific might happen if other

15:03

these conditions a narrative

15:05

is distributed through the movie

15:09

the uncertainty her mother same

15:11

time providing a strategy to be

15:13

with the object of anxiety

15:15

then all this free feather anxiety

15:17

might connect to the object of a job

15:20

and the my be a huge willingness to

15:22

participate in the strategy to do

15:24

with the object of anxiety even when

15:27

the strategy is clearly observed

15:29

and

15:30

the ball nobody's business

15:32

strategy just because it gives

15:35

them a feeling of control the

15:38

they know what to say

15:41

other thing to note

15:42

audience is connected to an object wouldn't

15:44

sins of violence and through participation

15:47

in a strategy the but the object of

15:49

anxiety they feel in control

15:51

again for instance lockdowns

15:54

vaccination strategies

15:59

of master of over of molson nation

16:02

and then

16:03

the second even more important once

16:07

because many people are the same time

16:09

participate in a strategy to be with

16:11

the opposite of anxiety though

16:13

the old fight this year robbing bother

16:15

collective atomic bomb but the object

16:18

of anxiety

16:19

people feel connected again

16:22

the

16:24

in in a if is as if is most role

16:27

of all these painful conditions namely

16:29

the lack of connection this gonna solve

16:32

by the my solution was to

16:35

it

16:36

the goes in a mess

16:38

has been described the nineteenth

16:40

century onwards in a mess round

16:45

people do not connect to

16:47

other individuals the

16:49

all connect separately to

16:51

the collective so the

16:53

a mess is a group that is formed

16:56

not because there

16:58

are strong bonds between individuals

17:00

but because there are there is a bond

17:02

of every individual separately

17:04

the collected

17:06

it was even so that the

17:08

moment i'm aspiration exists the

17:11

more the bones between the individuals deteriorate

17:14

and the more all the psychological energy

17:17

sector way

17:19

from the bonds between the individuals and

17:21

investors in the box

17:23

with a collective the next of

17:25

after a while bond between

17:27

individuals are extremely weak

17:30

bond between individuals and collective is

17:32

extremely strong that explains

17:34

one and corona crisis for

17:36

instance everybody was talking

17:38

about solidarity everybody was full

17:40

of solidarity and

17:42

the same thing people accepted the

17:46

the someone governance and on the street they

17:48

were no longer love to help

17:50

them or is

17:53

aaron's were dying somewhere

17:55

in a hospital or at home

17:58

the children were not the out to visit them

18:01

and all this in the name of

18:03

solidarity with the elderly eminem

18:07

i referred to this mother the

18:09

few minutes ago reporters her some

18:11

to the same and who

18:13

claimed to be head of and for doing so well

18:16

that's exactly what happens even the strongest

18:18

bond between individuals this february

18:20

than a mess is sad

18:22

you probably already willing to

18:25

the people they used

18:27

to love the sake of the collective

18:30

and that's what everything that instead

18:33

the end the ends up

18:35

in a completely paranoid atmosphere

18:38

that's because it is based on mess image and

18:40

muslim nations sucks all the

18:42

energy away on the bond between

18:44

individuals and advantage

18:46

the on it

18:47

the i think you i mean you've you've now that

18:49

you're perfectly described what

18:51

i think so many people all over

18:53

the world in different places have

18:56

experienced and seen especially

18:58

people who have been questioning

19:02

everything that's been happening for the past two and a

19:04

half years and the people have been trying to understand

19:07

it and work it out i mean the number

19:09

of people who i am aware of let

19:11

alone how many millions must be out there who

19:14

lost friendships over the course of this time

19:16

who shifted away from their

19:19

own families there are families who now

19:21

won't see each other there are babies that

19:23

were born in the past two years and people

19:26

don't want the uncles

19:28

or the grandparents the grandparents parents to to

19:30

see the children as all sorts of conflict

19:33

it's been created and as

19:35

you said it's so interesting because

19:38

it's all done under the guise of

19:40

health and safety and caring

19:42

and compassion but it's it's extremely

19:45

rule it's been extremely device if

19:47

people have advocated for segregation

19:50

and discrimination wishing

19:53

harm and death upon people

19:55

who have not done anything that that of wrong them

19:57

i mean for me that's been the

19:59

the iraq is part of the past two and a half years

20:02

has been the i wasn't aware

20:04

of this this terminology of mass

20:06

formation but some of the mechanisms you describe

20:09

prior to any a corona pandemic

20:12

situation i have

20:14

looked that and done a lot of

20:16

deep thinking about some of the events i mean

20:18

even just looking at the twentieth century and you'll

20:20

hit the rise of these totalitarian regimes

20:23

in the way that people went along with things

20:25

and the way the people turned on each other and turned

20:28

on their family their their neighbors their

20:30

fellow citizens and ultimately

20:32

you know that led to a

20:34

extremely crack catastrophic events in

20:37

various countries around the world and i've

20:39

spent a lot of time i mean even from my childhood just

20:41

just thinking of like how how's

20:44

that possible how does that happen

20:46

because fundamentally human beings today

20:49

the not different to how we were eighty

20:51

years ago we have more technology and

20:53

more information great but psychologically

20:55

we are were identically the same

20:58

to our parents or grandparents

21:00

the know

21:01

okay

21:03

if you're exactly the same get

21:05

him the a reviewer in a more

21:07

disconnected and and also the to stage

21:09

an arm and that's

21:12

also something that is described very well

21:14

by poachers issue one

21:16

of the french author who a wonderful author

21:18

about the a propaganda any

21:21

, that the different

21:25

the nation of ancient things in the them

21:27

to the masses are lonely masks

21:38

they were

21:39

the

21:41

people belong to a mess because

21:44

they shared the same a these

21:46

the same logic the same

21:48

narrative and the same the same miss

21:51

even which was distributed through the mass

21:53

media they all shared the same

21:55

a nice and that made them

21:58

the do a mess the

22:00

day didn't never physically

22:02

get them and dusty excellent

22:05

the classic condition

22:07

for propaganda to be effective

22:10

if people for

22:12

a so called lonely throughout

22:14

the lonely months and dust thing

22:17

propaganda is maximally effective

22:20

that's probably why

22:21

the other than the current an article so successful

22:24

after all well

22:26

why why why do you think that people

22:29

have

22:30

in so lonely i mean what do you think

22:32

is at play so prior to prior

22:34

to the past couple of years you

22:36

really noted this and twenty seven see and i mean

22:39

is it is it just technology

22:41

or what do you think it is the causing all these

22:43

conditions that the lack of purpose the

22:46

lack of meaning the increasing

22:48

loneliness the increasing

22:51

as you describe it free floating anxiety

22:53

which is not directed towards

22:55

anything to that's something i even see and hear

22:58

in people's own language especially when talking

23:00

to younger people have never seen

23:03

so many people talking about having

23:05

anxiety or you know how

23:07

feeling this way and feeling that way and

23:10

you know even young people talking about having

23:12

ptsd and experiencing

23:14

to your trauma and all of these things

23:17

it seems like particularly in the

23:19

western world all

23:21

of these things have been these

23:24

or pathologies whether real

23:27

or imagined have certainly

23:29

been growing a lot over the past ten

23:32

to fifteen years i'd like to say

23:34

that it's been been very noticeable and i

23:36

think we've reached i don't know if it's at a peak

23:38

i don't have a peak now but it

23:40

certainly at a at a local one

23:43

so what do you think the underlying

23:46

cause is for that so we've discussed the mechanism

23:48

but but why why a society

23:51

even trending in that direction

23:55

the first five chapters of my book or

23:57

the psychological trick getting is more all or

23:59

about that

24:02

i think if as a lot to do indeed

24:04

whether the level of industrialization and technology

24:07

used that's very important factor

24:10

the

24:11

i give some very detailed examples

24:13

in my book and that

24:16

demonstrates how exactly use of

24:18

technology lead to

24:21

more disconnection and to or

24:24

the lack of resonance between people

24:26

under involvements as

24:28

i described the athena of

24:30

the digitalization of conversations i've

24:34

been studying real conversations

24:36

that mean conversations in which

24:38

to people we're talking

24:41

to each other or physically present or physically

24:43

there

24:44

the

24:45

edit it a disease this this this

24:47

this research program showed me how

24:49

and credibly subtle and sublime

24:51

a real conversation edge in

24:54

a real conversation

24:56

one person

24:58

reacts to the other in less than point

25:01

two seconds that's five times faster

25:03

than in traffic if

25:05

a friends

25:12

and not even happens

25:14

when the first person stops speaking

25:17

in the middle percent

25:19

which shows that has nothing to do with a kind of a

25:21

rational prediction of of one the

25:25

sentence will end and man the

25:27

the other person can start going to start to speak know

25:30

something else in the real conversation people

25:32

or physically connected to the

25:35

bodies of two people resonated each

25:37

other

25:37

if is someone listens to someone else was

25:39

speaking

25:41

the that the the

25:43

in the muscles on the face is activated

25:45

in the same way as a person who's listening

25:47

to and the didn't know that the

25:50

the neuronal system also

25:52

resonance also vibrates together for

25:54

the person

25:58

that means

25:59

windows is physical symbiosis

26:03

satisfied satisfies one of

26:05

the one of the deepest

26:06

the desires

26:09

, the human being designed to be connected

26:11

someone desire to feel connected

26:14

and that the news

26:16

is that resonance drops away in

26:20

a digital conversation and that's exactly

26:22

why it is over

26:24

that's why digital conversations

26:27

if we if you do them for a long time

26:30

six or seven hours in the room for instance

26:32

as i haven't been doing as i

26:34

was doing during the first lockdown

26:36

make you feel exhausted

26:38

i heard so many colleagues saying this

26:40

the fifteen exhaust and because of all these digital

26:42

conversations and it is exactly because

26:45

bobby i'm simply trying to

26:47

connect to the body of the autumn and

26:50

it's also of the fails to do so and

26:52

it's exhausted so

26:53

i'm simply trying to connect

26:56

and he aggregating articulated

26:58

isn't a very nice be on on twitter he says

27:01

digital conversations are so exhausting

27:04

because they put us constantly

27:06

in the presence of the absence of

27:08

the other that's what happens when a digital

27:10

digital conversation so that shows his that's one

27:12

example only one exotic would get many

27:15

more i could give many mark this showing

27:17

that show me the technology on

27:19

the one hand connects to the other it's

27:21

it's it's an excellent tool to disseminate information

27:24

both what but at the same time and

27:27

destroy something on the through

27:29

human

27:30

the or

27:31

the

27:32

the connectedness

27:34

the same holds for many for

27:36

for almost every other mechanical

27:39

the device use of almost

27:41

any other mechanical device i give examples such

27:43

as the and the psychological impact of watches

27:46

of steam engines of radio television

27:49

and so on so i'm sure that this

27:51

realization and technology used or

27:53

very important factor that

27:55

makes people feel

27:57

disconnected and that contributes to the the

28:00

other of more and more and disorders

28:03

within itself within think it you

28:07

know that area

28:08

i think something is even more important the

28:10

thing that you know industrialization

28:14

and technology use in itself

28:16

or comes out a consequence or something

28:18

else not a consequence of

28:21

i would have you on that of the world in

28:24

this view on none of the world's

28:26

the dominant view on manageable

28:29

but as the real problem we

28:31

have to overcome in our society the

28:33

dominant fuel minute the vote in our society

28:36

since a few hundred years

28:38

is a so called mccann molson

28:40

this material is few minutes won't be

28:43

all started to believe that the universe

28:45

is a kind of material machine the

28:48

set of interacting elementary

28:50

particles atoms and molecules whether

28:52

i could each other according to the

28:55

last mechanics and isn't fire

28:57

machine we

28:59

believe that he can describe it in a strictly rational

29:01

way and as it's an old

29:04

francis the human consciousness i

29:06

would i'd these are talks and our feelings

29:09

we're supposed to be consequence

29:13

of mechanistic interactions and

29:15

i would bring of over the go of the of

29:17

the biochemical machine and in

29:20

our head and the did does she

29:22

will men in the bolivian

29:24

that is the true problem the

29:26

strange thing is that we believe that this view on

29:28

amount of the vote is a scientific fuel men in the

29:30

boat while almost all

29:32

same scientists

29:34

that and behind the almost all

29:36

at the behind they they they they started

29:38

from the smugness human animal the

29:41

after a while we'll consider

29:43

it the very limited and

29:45

it's capacity to explain

29:47

what happens

29:49

around this or what reality actually

29:52

is and it's it's it's strange but

29:54

i i noticed in my own life

29:57

that

29:57

when i was about sixteen years old their own truly

30:00

believe that and to make it a few a manageable

30:03

i i i wrote i would i

30:05

consider that crazy to believe that the world

30:08

would not be immaterialist

30:10

making a system

30:11

the a set of elementary

30:13

particles interacting with each other but

30:15

slowly

30:17

by just

30:19

the

30:20

learning more and more about science i

30:23

started to see

30:24

that's not

30:26

it it it took

30:28

me a thought i was thirty five years old and

30:30

and been i've been a very good really familiar with systems

30:33

theory and theory and mathematical bases of systems

30:35

theory before

30:37

really started to realize that

30:40

what we call reality indeed

30:43

not rational

30:48

you know anything

30:50

a very different

30:52

theory paradoxically

30:59

the reality behave strictly

31:01

eruption

31:02

nature is

31:04

full of complex than article systems and these complex

31:07

financial systems all behave in the same

31:09

way as empty as irrational numbers in them

31:12

and , for instance to give only one

31:14

example and that's why news bought the

31:17

famous physicists who received the

31:19

nobel prize see

31:21

that he had been studying

31:24

the elementary particles for his entire life

31:26

and he says when it comes

31:29

to items in which

31:31

can only be uses poetry

31:33

and he meant that he was dead serious when he said them

31:35

became

31:37

lucky and the and a part

31:40

of reality ended with used can be

31:42

understood in the best moments but most

31:44

part cannot that's in france

31:46

was really fun one , the most famous

31:49

mathematicians of mathematicians twentieth century be amount of

31:51

the founders was founded of systems the evening

31:55

are you can make it like this he says this

31:58

part of reality

31:59

i'm be understood in rational way is very

32:02

limited and the rest of reality

32:04

show

32:06

you can only be no by emphatically

32:08

resonating with

32:09

in

32:11

do you have to go

32:13

to a society

32:14

nice to overcome to transcend

32:17

mommy in

32:19

get in touch with a different way

32:21

to know the vulva arms the

32:24

way to know the built which is much more

32:26

than eighty

32:27

the more

32:28

and breathing in

32:30

nature and which

32:32

the it's hard to define what this new

32:36

what is different way of knowing the vote is

32:38

for the had a look

32:40

the i will i mean i think this is a

32:42

it's it's so interesting to me on

32:44

everything you're saying here and i think the

32:47

i loved that in the their opening chapters

32:50

your book i like the fact that you

32:53

go deep into discussing

32:56

some of the problems and limitations

32:59

of what a been about this mechanistic

33:01

worldview but also i think what

33:04

a lot of laypeople especially

33:06

in modern western society consider

33:10

to be science

33:13

right which and something i

33:15

found really fascinating is how

33:17

in this sort of hard

33:19

pursuit of making

33:22

everything supposedly about hi

33:24

i'm sam supposedly about all

33:26

of this is actually we

33:29

we've somehow descended into

33:31

a less rational

33:35

perspective when people have sort of jettisoned

33:37

many of these other ideas

33:40

philosophical religious

33:42

spiritual anything

33:45

, that's not outside the

33:47

realm of hard empirical

33:50

data and stats and science and

33:52

and people don't wanna the

33:54

bought some many people are not interested in

33:56

hearing that are listening to it or are considering

33:58

it's and string usually

34:00

i think people would have predicted that that would

34:03

lead to ah you know

34:05

more more he oh let's

34:07

get rid of all their potential apparitions

34:10

end anything mentioning spirits

34:13

or the soul and

34:15

less you know and what happened

34:17

as well as step scientists what certain

34:19

scientists get elevated the read

34:21

his new position where they've almost become the

34:24

these new the new priests and there's

34:26

this hard dogma and you're not you're

34:28

now not supposed to ask any questions you

34:30

not supposed to question anything you're not supposed

34:32

to challenge anything and it's almost like how what

34:35

people call the science has

34:38

supplanted religion

34:41

for many people it's the difference between actual

34:43

science and i guess what i would call scientism

34:46

which is you know just this trust the experts

34:48

trust the experts follow the signs followed side even

34:51

if a scientist such as yourself or

34:53

who says way hang on i have

34:55

a question here are just doesn't make sense i mean

34:58

this person is treated like a heretic for you know

35:00

they have now spoke they've now spoken blasphemy

35:02

in the way maybe you know fundamentalist

35:05

people in the past would have not

35:07

tolerated any type of dissent

35:09

or questioning and it is it's so interesting to

35:11

me watching this happen under the

35:14

banner the science i think

35:16

the word science has really been that

35:19

taken a heavy heavy hit

35:21

over the past couple years that i've never seen so

35:24

much nonsense in my life

35:26

parading as science

35:29

the i , i

35:32

say i think the problem the problem is that originally

35:36

blinds was a discourse of a minority

35:39

the which a minority wins against

35:41

the dominance the dominant this course

35:44

this on any be into begun the

35:46

recruiter

35:48

a

35:50

paint is

35:52

is there are scientists through every dogma

35:55

on

35:56

at veggies is overboard

35:59

it

35:59

the minimum amount

36:02

the

36:06

homes as a consequence of

36:09

wallace gritted teeth mans

36:12

became the dominant view of the

36:14

dominant does this cause it's aside yourself switch

36:16

changed from the discourse a minute

36:19

into a dominant discourse and

36:22

it became an ideology itself

36:25

at sea snake and became a dust

36:27

mop said became a set of prejudices

36:29

itself at least

36:33

you don't have

36:35

netted and and

36:37

we became privileges they

36:39

were now scientists anymore

36:42

that's something dramatic of course

36:44

but something which happens to every discourse

36:47

that become dominant in a society usually

36:51

gets better for in

36:53

ice cream of in my books it took me

36:55

a long time to understand what why

36:59

additional had become dominant up

37:01

almost always louise

37:04

it's qualities of through

37:06

speech and is just the i think

37:08

it's just because once as

37:10

because discourse becomes becomes a dominant discourse

37:13

it becomes the privileged instrument

37:16

of manipulation

37:17

on

37:18

in a privileged instrument in a struggle

37:21

for power everyone wants to use

37:23

it

37:23

someone who

37:25

on how the company wants

37:27

to use of himself to songs brothers

37:29

just because he knows

37:31

if i can claim that my brother is

37:33

scientifically proven effective

37:36

everybody will bind so that's that's

37:44

another problem you're freaking mouths science

37:47

the no longer science it's no longer

37:49

a mother of being open minded

37:51

it's an ideology it's an ideology

37:54

that this adult a set of dogmas

37:56

and prejudice is it's all and then and

37:59

then you said

38:01

changes from something

38:04

that is rational to a certain extent

38:06

something that becomes completely

38:09

certainly a russian and

38:12

that's what we have

38:15

seen in the koran across as against yeah

38:17

absolutely it's been so interesting because

38:20

people have been talking about science

38:22

or even the science as if it's like

38:24

it's one individual or an institution

38:28

right so it not not a

38:31

method or a body of

38:33

ever changing workers something that supposed to be

38:35

challenging question damas just like a doctor

38:38

and this is the science

38:40

and every country in every city had it's

38:42

own science it's which

38:44

is also are interesting and

38:47

whether you're a scientist or a doctor

38:49

or just a layperson or whatever she had any

38:51

question it was just you

38:53

know i think that's another key factor is just

38:55

the power of i guess two

38:58

things number one the natural human

39:00

urge for social conformity most

39:02

people want to be

39:05

and the majority and they wanted

39:07

get along with people and avoid conflict

39:10

and avoid arguments all of that and

39:12

, i think with that also just comes the power

39:14

of fear and

39:16

in this case i mean if you

39:18

really think about the past couple years fear

39:21

of the virus was the virus part

39:24

of it but there were much greater fears

39:26

that play the fear of social ostracize

39:28

asian the fear of people

39:30

losing their jobs if you are a doctor

39:32

who had some of the questions or

39:35

wanted to promote some alternative therapies you

39:37

could you could lose your job you could lose your

39:39

voice on social media you could

39:41

be censored on you tube you could lose

39:43

money on there were all

39:45

sorts of fears that were at play so

39:48

even when there were people

39:50

who wanted to ask questions or

39:52

wanted to challenge things or didn't understand

39:54

things they felt so fearful that

39:57

they couldn't they they felt like they

39:59

couldn't say anything they felt like they were silenced

40:01

and that was another very interesting

40:04

mechanism that i think at this

40:07

formation going i mean it's still happening

40:09

it's still happening now honestly it hasn't really

40:11

finished yet depending on know where somebody

40:13

is located and then on top of

40:15

that there's also the ego

40:18

there's also the unwillingness for people

40:20

to say move i

40:22

was wrong or maybe i got that

40:24

part right you know maybe i made i made i mean

40:26

if you look at all the governments across the world you

40:28

know these so called public health experts

40:31

all of these are people in different fields

40:33

even in the media i mean how many

40:36

people have said oh we

40:38

we made a mistake or we got something wrong instead

40:41

what they say is the science changed

40:43

yeah i know nobody nobody got

40:45

anything wrong

40:46

the of i and changed and that was

40:48

the sort of excuse that

40:51

now okay know we can just keep on

40:53

going and we can keep changing the narrative and

40:55

yesterday we told you this tomorrow we're telling

40:57

you there's an hour saying this and that's and

40:59

none of it adds up or make sense but it's

41:01

like vit nobody who's in one of

41:04

these the nation want

41:06

to just admit okay we

41:08

we got some things wrong maybe we overestimated

41:10

this maybe we underestimated that's we

41:13

counted this incorrectly our prediction models

41:15

were wrong this thing didn't do

41:17

what we what we told everybody it was going

41:19

to do and i'm it's

41:21

just the sort of web of dishonesty

41:24

and ego and it's it's very frustrating to watch

41:27

and it and leave and i agree with you the fear

41:29

of the virus was a bow

41:32

one the examples

41:34

of anxiety in the crop in the crisis but probably

41:37

and group pressure or

41:39

was or was was was on important factor

41:41

and yeah

41:45

it's extremely important thing to thing to

41:48

like this phenomenon of most for me to

41:50

the combination of all kinds of factors and

41:52

all kinds of

41:54

the psychological forces makes

41:56

it extremely powerful

41:58

the

41:59

make in his muscle movements really powerful

42:02

that's identical to hypnosis as a just set

42:04

a like into it in

42:07

hypnosis know someone a hypnotist

42:10

the withdraw your pension of of someone else

42:12

from from reality from the environment

42:14

and focuses on one small

42:16

aspect of reality for instance an

42:18

object that us the

42:22

swinging on on on will train

42:24

or something or or on the voice of the diplo this

42:27

and that it isn't rest of reality

42:29

doesn't exist anymore

42:32

ended visited this myth of has been

42:34

focusing on the bench was extremely strong

42:37

so like like a simple hypnotic

42:39

procedure a sufficient the meet someone

42:42

not aware anymore of what happens

42:44

with his body and the simple hypnotic

42:47

procedures sufficient the

42:49

maximum completely insensitive

42:51

to pain to this extent that

42:53

you can perfectly perform an operation

42:56

surgical operation on someone who isn't the

42:58

hypnosis it happens all the time in

43:00

his university hospital and

43:02

enter university hospital in belgium someone

43:06

a doctor

43:07

the hypnotizing patients the patients

43:09

with a simple procedure and then a

43:12

surgeon can cut through the skin in

43:14

the flesh even straight through the breastbone

43:16

without the patients noticing

43:20

what happens in a mass for minister

43:22

first

43:23

the did this image

43:26

page and which

43:28

all the people's attention

43:30

people's anxiety precise migration

43:33

is is boring to float freely

43:35

is withdrawn from reality then

43:37

the reason that focuses everything

43:40

on small part of reality for reality

43:42

for a bonus and the the

43:44

measures to like a virus

43:47

and then it seems as if all the rest of

43:49

europe doesn't exist anymore the

43:51

measures we knew from the beginning

43:53

that the measures would probably

43:55

claim more victims at that

43:58

the virus displaying even a diversity the

44:00

know

44:01

in but people just weren't

44:03

of sensitive

44:04

the victims of the measures anymore the

44:06

attention of focus on one point and

44:09

you could try to show them and thousand

44:11

oh

44:13

the much as you wanted

44:14

there are other victims of the most victims

44:16

of the measures that children would start

44:20

developing countries because of

44:22

, of the damage done

44:24

to the economy that

44:26

they would that that many people

44:29

would die from the late the

44:31

treatments know that many to the people

44:34

the only thing that has psychological impact

44:37

was the virus and

44:48

the

44:57

nationally is extremely strong

44:59

as an extremely strong type

45:01

of hypnosis and ,

45:03

the nineteenth century onwards people like

45:06

who suffered a bolt said that when

45:08

people in the grip of muslim nation

45:12

well vivid a muslim it emerges

45:14

certain on the population usually

45:16

twenty usually twenty thirty percent will be

45:18

really in the grip of this process

45:21

the other people

45:23

well or them remain silent because

45:25

you're scared of the masses and

45:28

that is always small percentage of people that

45:30

wants to do something about that wants to speakers

45:34

typical this is a ,

45:38

it's typical that these

45:40

people that's been defend these people speak

45:42

out they do not succeed in making of

45:44

the moses

45:46

usually they will succeed but

45:49

and that's something extremely important

45:52

who's national this

45:54

quite over the in the in the nineteenth century

45:57

does indeed these people might not be able

45:59

to wake up

45:59

images

46:10

the dwindle people would continue

46:12

to speaking

46:13

they were constantly disturbed

46:15

the mess with nation

46:17

and they will

46:22

that it reaches the dramatic

46:24

level where the people

46:27

in the most start to comment helped by

46:29

the leaders sparked a comment crew

46:31

these two thousand people would would

46:33

not want to go along with the minutes

46:50

but the cruelty started anything

46:53

to do

46:54

the have been an issue it's union and adding

46:56

thirty seven is a dream and

47:02

and within six months

47:04

the cruelty

47:07

that that you don't want it's

47:09

not because you do not convince

47:12

the people in the crowd

47:14

that you do not have an effect you do have an

47:16

effect a huge effect can you

47:18

make that people that a fanatic

47:21

conviction of the people in the much

47:24

didn't go so far that the are convinced

47:26

that it is the ethical duty the

47:28

doctor stigmatized eliminate destroy

47:31

the people who do not go along with him so that's just

47:33

crucial it's crucial to understand

47:36

that as soon as you understand that you know

47:38

that you have to continue to speaking

47:41

the even with

47:42

the have the impression that the

47:47

the original succeed in making them up as

47:49

through but we do have are not a

47:51

different effect which is crucial that

47:54

therefore it's so important what

47:56

do you think it is that why

47:59

do you think some

47:59

the ball

48:00

didn't got didn't

48:03

go with it what what what's different about

48:05

that small percentage of people who

48:09

the number one noticed something is wrong

48:11

and then number to feel the

48:14

necessity or have the boldness

48:16

or courage to the

48:18

questions in the face of all of this

48:21

adversity and rocking

48:23

the boat because something i've seen really interesting

48:25

over these past two and a half years is it doesn't seem

48:27

to ah whether

48:30

people kind of totally got sucked into

48:32

it or partially

48:34

or not at all it doesn't seem to be linked

48:36

at all to what we would typically call

48:39

intelligence or or i do

48:41

or anything like that it's not like oh you know

48:43

the smart smart people didn't get sucked into

48:46

it and you know some stupid people date

48:48

or something like that it's not it's not like

48:50

that at all that seems to be more based on personality

48:53

traits or perhaps prior

48:55

preconditions or something like that and

48:57

i think it's interesting that you used the example of

48:59

individual hypnosis because i'm aware

49:01

that also not everybody can be hypnotized

49:03

correct some people can be hypnotized easily

49:06

and there's some people who seem to be very very resistant

49:09

to it even with the best hip hip note best

49:11

hypnotist they just don't they

49:14

don't fall under the under the spell so

49:16

from her as from as psychologist prospective

49:18

what you think is it play that

49:20

nobody knows

49:23

nobody knows what the one thing is clear

49:25

and intelligence the origins

49:27

of don't know

49:30

all concerns

49:33

the level of education

49:36

the oil the

49:38

level of education the more vulnerable for

49:40

message that's

49:44

something and always been this close in the nineteenth

49:46

century onwards why

49:48

do you think that is that's

49:51

awesome good question that

49:53

might have to do with the fact that our

49:55

education system

49:56

maybe

49:57

the doesn't really learn

49:59

the think for ourselves the

50:03

rather

50:04

learned a thing and the same way

50:06

that learn salsa think a the same methods as

50:08

to conform

50:10

who

50:11

one way of thinking

50:13

that could be an explanation but

50:15

is another possible explanation and

50:17

that is that the more people

50:19

feel the urge to the get

50:22

a degree the

50:24

more they are driven by

50:26

them

50:28

the willingness or a desire to conform

50:31

to social aviv's the social

50:33

standards as also possibility over

50:35

, be notes get over the years

50:37

but it's it's has been observed pointed been

50:39

again ah

50:43

see

50:45

going along with the masses are

50:47

going against them has to do with

50:50

the most fundamental choice a human being can

50:52

make of every moment

50:55

the always can choose to

50:57

take the easy way

50:58

and to do as everyone else does even

51:01

if we know somewhere that was

51:05

a the majority does is absurd

51:07

majority crew are are are are

51:10

uber door

51:11

the counterproductive oregon

51:14

make good to the more difficult to

51:16

it and your being

51:18

loyal they loyal to we

51:22

believe the sincere an honest

51:25

with him and spiegel

51:28

try to articulate these thoughts

51:30

and ideas and words that seems

51:32

sincere and most of us i

51:35

don't mean that we have to believe that you're

51:37

the only what's going on through to something jr

51:40

the u s g living

51:43

in to be ethical duty

51:45

oh

51:46

saying what at a certain mood

51:48

to you seem smart

51:52

here in hamas that's all you have to do and

51:55

that's it also that's also the most

51:57

and because his way to speak

52:00

not trying to convince

52:02

the dress they look

52:04

okay that's european you

52:07

believe that if you would if

52:10

you wouldn't have taken your three jobs

52:12

you would have been even more sick than you

52:14

are now

52:15

i

52:16

look at things differently the i

52:19

have a different opinion the

52:22

i think there are other ways to protect yourself

52:27

the

52:28

and that will just saw the with

52:30

i think and then you can do with it what

52:32

you want that's my opinion that's yours

52:34

you can do with it's what you want at that moment you have the maximum

52:37

effect at that moment if

52:39

you are too pushy well

52:41

make the other a little bit angry

52:44

evil muslims or governor

52:46

and and and his own opinion even more the

52:49

the future speak up

52:51

even

52:53

the reason i think quantities of your voice

52:55

will disturb or the

52:57

fanatic conviction and

52:59

your

53:00

the usa

53:01

the only one i was thinking

53:04

a interact more soundly or something

53:07

so that's one thing me we

53:09

should do we shouldn't the

53:11

other thing of all the more from the month of they do that as

53:14

a society we have to switch

53:16

you have to move on to

53:18

a difference you're mad of the both as it just says

53:21

this drug the last century's

53:24

we have been so convinced are we have been

53:26

thinking that the rational understanding

53:29

to be the basis of society

53:32

is the most important in the most crucial thing

53:34

the and human existence

53:37

the

53:38

i'm selling i think is important

53:41

but it's only the first stage the

53:44

process developing

53:47

through knowledge

53:50

if you

53:52

follow

53:54

logic and rational understand in a truly

53:57

honestly the will soon arrive

53:59

at the point

53:59

the limit of

54:01

you will feel as all major cities

54:04

the concluded

54:06

that beyond a certain point

54:08

you can

54:10

ruff things nobody cool anymore

54:12

that you have to move on to a different way of

54:14

knowing it love at something that

54:16

is crucial and then when we learn

54:19

and art or or craft have

54:21

some keep an invalid and the learning

54:23

process that has always first

54:25

this professional stage in which

54:27

we return the rational

54:30

way the rules of

54:32

the art the learn how what

54:34

do you need to do in order to make

54:36

certain object of an order to make

54:38

music or something else so the first

54:40

stage of the process of learning

54:42

a not or craft is a national stage

54:45

but then

54:47

the practice these rational

54:49

rooms or not

54:50

no some how to develop

54:53

a certain feeling

54:57

no

55:00

it is more than rational and irrational

55:02

muslims than in japan they have this

55:04

great proverbs seeing

55:06

if you want to become a monster

55:08

an unarmed

55:10

your birth of to fix the rules

55:12

of the art

55:14

and then brings him

55:16

and throw them away

55:19

when you start to the vet have this feeling this more

55:21

intuitive notice this more resonating

55:24

knowledge but the object or visit with

55:26

the art of war that the craft doesn't

55:28

know it's very very become a master and the ottoman

55:30

or in the car and let's

55:33

also the moment already becoming touch they

55:35

started to get in touch with the eternal

55:38

in support of the art and

55:40

also the internal principle of humanity of life

55:43

and thus that such as the essence of resolution

55:45

have to go to instead

55:48

of the

55:50

cultural centers on russia

55:53

mouthy as or or pseudo

55:55

rationality is have to become

55:57

a go to that a centered on a more resumes

55:59

them

56:01

which isn't through known

56:03

as in life which

56:05

nexus ran into the eternal

56:08

music of love headaches bit of the pretty

56:10

much mail night and , was about thirty

56:12

five years old i started to really become

56:14

aware of the fact that recall

56:17

the fans here

56:29

when you think logically you caught

56:31

you connect the one much of it i need to the

56:33

article on and at this as if

56:35

you build a closed wall of

56:37

rational as he suffered a fan

56:40

and as soon as you start to understand that

56:42

inherent ultimately national

56:45

on the something as good as him as if if is of

56:47

always logical or these

56:50

you can open up again

56:52

as a sort of the space between

56:54

lot of my lease is up dot moments

56:57

that

56:58

the vibration the music

57:00

the total musical flavor and

57:03

then go through the world logical

57:06

the new strains of your own

57:08

been and or to resonate with

57:10

the eternal music or kind of

57:13

that the moment also actually almost

57:15

literally a describes my boot it's almost

57:17

as if i'm human being

57:19

the string instrument also have

57:21

a physical of

57:22

the muscles are kind of swings the the

57:24

rose colored as

57:28

the

57:30

vibration and to the music rounds you

57:32

there's a good moment that you also can

57:35

start to tolerate the idea

57:37

of death and dying and suffer just

57:39

because you feel

57:41

the end of your physical existence

57:44

the movie and of everything

57:46

fuel to participate in

57:48

something eternal

57:49

something you don't untouched steps are such

57:52

to the ,

57:54

disease i think of haven't

57:56

gotten a about arsenal

57:58

mad at the asari

57:59

it's or an hour i love olive oil you're saying it

58:02

it's so interesting to me because

58:05

what what's happening is nice that

58:07

that actually is circling back to

58:09

very very basic

58:11

and fundamental religious

58:13

ideas

58:14

right

58:16

and i think that for i

58:18

found in my in my own life even with

58:20

with people i know and even

58:22

looking at society at large i think

58:25

that and this was really really highlighted

58:27

over the past two and a half years and

58:29

this is simply the concept

58:32

and view of

58:35

our own human mortality frame

58:37

and you know whether or not someone believes

58:39

in god or follows or religion this is you

58:42

know that's that's that's what people want

58:44

to want to believe or not but

58:46

certainly for people who who

58:48

have faith whether someone is a christian

58:51

or jewish or islamic are so on his

58:54

there is a concept of

58:57

mortality it's

58:59

a different is a whole different concept of mortality

59:02

because you're you're not simply believing that

59:04

this life here and now on this materialistic

59:07

were earth is the be

59:09

all and end up yes

59:11

it's important but there's

59:14

there's more beyond that i think that totally

59:16

changes the way people view death

59:19

in general both general both own potential

59:22

death but also other

59:24

people's i think that what was really highlighted

59:26

over the past two and a half years is actually

59:28

how uncomfortable people

59:31

have become with this relationship and

59:33

concept of mortality people were acting

59:35

as if prior to twenty twenty

59:37

nobody used die i mean there are

59:39

many countries where the average

59:42

age of deaths to whether from or with

59:44

cove it was i think in the uk it was

59:46

eighty two which in the same actually

59:48

as the average life expectancy at

59:50

think in the usa it was something like seventy

59:52

eight or seventy nine and i

59:55

mean yes every everyone's life

59:57

matters and nobody wants their their parent

59:59

the grandparent or whatever to to to ever

1:00:02

die really you know we'd and sort of like

1:00:04

to have this life where are you know know what no one ever

1:00:06

dies but it i'm kind of like

1:00:08

the eighty five year old dying

1:00:10

of it disease is not

1:00:13

it's not the same as a as a fifteen

1:00:15

year old or a twenty five year old buying

1:00:18

of a disease prop prior to this year when

1:00:20

the media wasn't putting so much focus and

1:00:22

attention on this one very

1:00:24

central particular thing

1:00:26

there have been about sick i mean article

1:00:29

i believe around sixty million people every year

1:00:31

in the world die every single day thousands

1:00:34

and thousands of people are dying but the attention

1:00:36

wasn't focused on and it was suddenly like

1:00:39

oh my gosh we are we're

1:00:41

my we are mortal beings we can get sick

1:00:43

we can transfer diseases to each other we

1:00:45

can die of people were acting like this was some brand

1:00:48

new revelation which was something that was very

1:00:50

confusing to me because i was like well we've

1:00:53

we've had diseases and we've

1:00:55

been spreading them and we had every every flu

1:00:57

season tens of thousands hundreds of thousands

1:00:59

of people do do pass away unfortunately

1:01:02

but we were always

1:01:05

comfortable

1:01:06

with that right it doesn't mean that you

1:01:08

don't try to do anything to minimize it but

1:01:11

you understood that as people get older

1:01:13

and older and older at some point

1:01:16

they're going to they're going to pass away

1:01:18

from something and it is actually leads me to

1:01:21

one of the

1:01:22

there's a paragraph in your book i think it's in chapter

1:01:24

two which i actually i liked it so

1:01:26

much i took i took a photo of

1:01:28

this paragraph and i want to actually read it on the

1:01:30

podcast as i thought it was very at i

1:01:32

was very profound this was after you

1:01:34

were talking about i'm meaningless

1:01:37

jobs in the rise of meaningless jobs so

1:01:39

europe

1:01:40

the rise of meaningless professions shows

1:01:42

us that the real problem of humanity lies

1:01:45

and human relationships more so than in

1:01:47

the struggle with natural forces or

1:01:49

in the physical demands of work simply

1:01:51

put in a society in which human

1:01:53

relationships are satisfying life

1:01:55

will be bearable even if it has only primitive

1:01:58

means of production

1:01:59

whereas indices

1:01:59

heidi where human relationships are impoverished

1:02:02

and toxic life will be difficult and

1:02:04

unbearable however advanced

1:02:06

such society may be in terms of mack

1:02:09

and mechanical technological

1:02:11

evolution and i thought that

1:02:13

was just i thought i

1:02:15

was a inning incredible paragraph in

1:02:17

and very much in line with

1:02:19

somebody observations that observations see

1:02:22

when i look at the so

1:02:24

called economically developed countries

1:02:26

and less economically developed

1:02:28

countries and you're looking at things like mental

1:02:31

health and people's relationships and

1:02:33

general health happiness wellbeing

1:02:36

all of that and i think it's so deep because

1:02:38

it with this hyper materialistic world

1:02:41

view the a

1:02:43

it's got to sort of arrogant element to it

1:02:45

where people think okay we just need more tech and

1:02:47

more stuff and faster

1:02:50

and bigger and more expensive the

1:02:52

people get detached and fragmented

1:02:54

from each other and they lose that meaning and

1:02:56

suddenly the heavens id and depression and

1:02:58

all this and that whereas you can go to places

1:03:01

where people are far more impoverished

1:03:03

things are not as advanced there isn't as much technology

1:03:06

been actually people have strong bonds

1:03:08

with their families with their communities they have purpose

1:03:10

they have meaning their living their lives and

1:03:13

they they have different struggles the

1:03:16

have a more obvious and sort of external

1:03:18

struggle but this internal struggle that

1:03:20

i think so many modern people are

1:03:22

having and these battles they're having within themselves

1:03:25

it's far lesser it far less predominant

1:03:27

over there

1:03:30

yes

1:03:33

indeed i think

1:03:36

the city with a problem the

1:03:39

wrong points at his moments

1:03:42

and also we read only on

1:03:45

the entire striving

1:03:47

to

1:03:49

the society based on rational

1:03:52

information for instance is doomed to

1:03:54

fail to , the

1:03:56

only thing that can organize society

1:03:59

and newly

1:04:00

rooney humane way

1:04:02

the the

1:04:05

principles oh

1:04:07

principles that

1:04:10

the region

1:04:13

the person relationships

1:04:16

in the not discuss again

1:04:18

like

1:04:19

there's also you know i

1:04:22

mean there was this i believe

1:04:24

that we were talking about this is different

1:04:26

kind of know which which is more of a resume

1:04:28

thing gnomes

1:04:32

anything that is this different use

1:04:34

the vicinity moments

1:04:36

that is really in touch with the with

1:04:38

the things around that and in this game

1:04:41

the learn about are we start to feel

1:04:43

according to what principles

1:04:46

the to reality

1:04:55

that he followed them as we stay loyal

1:04:57

to them the eternal principles

1:05:00

the

1:05:02

the niggers behave in such a way and that

1:05:04

can make lists live together and such

1:05:06

a way

1:05:07

the

1:05:09

live a life perfume human being

1:05:11

you know there is is wonderful

1:05:13

chapter in the

1:05:16

the of a soul searching either

1:05:18

know if you if you know him the russian writer

1:05:20

who logo delegates the book

1:05:23

the glock the glock archipelago

1:05:26

image he describes his his life

1:05:28

in the concentration camps have some he

1:05:30

worked for fifteen years or think in the and

1:05:32

the coolest the russian concentration camps

1:05:35

and described that how most

1:05:38

criminals

1:05:40

photo to behave in

1:05:42

a beastly mother and a bit like man

1:05:44

the courses on each other's

1:05:46

guts using a knife just to

1:05:48

see the chose food and clothes they

1:05:51

became even worse for each other than

1:05:53

the guards were ready for them and

1:05:55

he also describes how small part

1:05:58

of the president's

1:06:00

the evolved

1:06:01

the opposite average they

1:06:04

and is all of darkness they

1:06:06

wanted to make sure

1:06:08

that day remains human

1:06:10

human and that they they they they

1:06:12

saved loyal

1:06:14

more and more

1:06:15

even in a more convinced way and a more determinedly

1:06:18

to the ethical principles and he says

1:06:20

he referred to one of these guys involving

1:06:23

a good a gaudy it i think was his name

1:06:26

they also i write a i refer to

1:06:28

has not under and last tipped off my book

1:06:32

the guy enter to the goulash the concentration

1:06:34

camps and sixty where he suffered

1:06:36

from room and than than several other medical

1:06:39

conditions

1:06:40

and book

1:06:42

the first moment on he stayed

1:06:44

loyal to his ethical principles of they sold

1:06:46

his food and his clothes he refuses to

1:06:48

seal the food at the close of other

1:06:50

prisoners himself as the god's commands

1:06:52

attempt to do something that he considered unethical

1:06:55

he refused to those to them so no

1:06:57

matter what the punishment was and ,

1:06:59

searching describes how this guy guy

1:07:02

stronger and stronger quiet while most

1:07:04

prisoners dies prisoners a few weeks

1:07:06

to few months he

1:07:09

became stronger and stronger anticipate

1:07:12

the concentration camps also for ten for fifteen

1:07:14

years as ten as fifteen of exactly and more it

1:07:16

is also to say that

1:07:18

the shown him

1:07:20

something that you cannot understand

1:07:25

imitating this view a minimum

1:07:29

the said that it showed

1:07:31

hope crucially important principles

1:07:34

or for a human being the thing

1:07:37

also for us here this situation

1:07:40

the constantly try to know and to predict

1:07:43

the

1:07:45

what will happen in the next few years and

1:07:47

years to come with actually cannot predict

1:07:49

that toby very chaotic and nobody knows

1:07:51

exactly what'll the shouldn't spend

1:07:53

too much energy

1:07:55

you know what will happen he should spend

1:07:57

more energetic

1:07:59

this

1:07:59

one thing we can be sure of that

1:08:02

it is that we ourselves

1:08:05

they'll stick to the principles of humanity

1:08:07

in a world that is increasingly

1:08:10

dehumanizing i think

1:08:12

if we do that

1:08:14

maybe all the rest will be done for us

1:08:16

and we can expect a lot to think of this period

1:08:22

them

1:08:23

the and the years to come you

1:08:25

have to come to be

1:08:27

extremely important a lotto hub

1:08:30

i'm an

1:08:32

the

1:08:33

the moment

1:08:36

something that was considered

1:08:39

an important in the last few centuries

1:08:42

namely

1:08:53

we have to read articulate

1:08:55

and reinventing time

1:08:57

and time again and all these principles

1:08:59

for me as a human being that have

1:09:02

the physical duty to speak out it's one of the

1:09:04

principles

1:09:08

the or to com

1:09:10

the my to reinvent the wheel is

1:09:12

possible

1:09:15

rediscover

1:09:16

that

1:09:24

they didn't the most crucial thing

1:09:26

human the human being can do

1:09:29

the address

1:09:31

well dressed we cannot control

1:09:34

and we shouldn't control as we

1:09:36

, just accept that's what happens

1:09:38

now is something

1:09:40

that had to happen

1:09:42

it's a natural process

1:09:44

in butcher unmarked organism the mass

1:09:47

one a dominant society

1:09:49

exert some of of pressure on a small group

1:09:52

in

1:09:54

bush's this group

1:09:55

on a bar let it would never go without

1:09:58

suspicion

1:09:59

the nixon

1:09:59

com or something you hm let's

1:10:02

hope it's it's a natural pleasures of birth

1:10:04

something syncing large keeps birch

1:10:06

dickinson

1:10:10

me i just

1:10:12

accept that

1:10:14

in

1:10:14

them accept everything that happens

1:10:21

the

1:10:23

on

1:10:26

the principles never mississippi

1:10:29

what we're human

1:10:31

the doing today

1:10:33

i love them and i think that's them

1:10:36

that's profound and less powerful because

1:10:40

of course we can't we can't predict the future and

1:10:43

we are there are so many things in

1:10:45

this world that we cannot control individually

1:10:48

nor even collectively that

1:10:50

we can certainly have

1:10:52

more control over how we

1:10:55

we view things and how we

1:10:57

react to them and we don't know where we're

1:10:59

going to be one year from now five years

1:11:01

from now ten years from now but i

1:11:04

hundred percent i'm on board with you that if we

1:11:06

have the right ethics morals

1:11:08

and principles then whatever

1:11:11

comes our way as individuals

1:11:13

and as humanity and societies as

1:11:15

a whole then that's what

1:11:17

i'm confident that okay we can deal with as we

1:11:19

can get through this we've been through the

1:11:21

human race has been through some really really

1:11:23

really dark and terrible stuff some

1:11:26

of which we have have talked about and

1:11:29

have come out on the other end of it so

1:11:32

that's something that absolutely gives me some

1:11:34

optimism and , that

1:11:36

note mathias man i could i could talk

1:11:39

to you for so long but i wanna be respectful

1:11:41

of your time it's been an amazing conversation

1:11:44

i really love and value

1:11:46

your insights your book is

1:11:48

fantastic i haven't got into the very end of it

1:11:50

just yet as a recording but

1:11:53

making some good headway with it and

1:11:55

it's got some amazing take away so where

1:11:58

can people check out

1:11:59

the book and where can people find

1:12:02

more of your work and follow you

1:12:04

perhaps online if they'd like

1:12:08

the

1:12:09

i'm only the damn facebook

1:12:11

them

1:12:13

and the book well , diversity

1:12:15

because the psychology of the most

1:12:17

people buy on amazon yes they

1:12:20

do and i

1:12:22

think there are other race to dubai

1:12:24

it i'm not sure to remind the to remind

1:12:26

publisher is a chelsea green on

1:12:28

their websites on the representative will definitely

1:12:31

find a book

1:12:32

wrong

1:12:33

the next week almighty

1:12:35

the will be available on the this week

1:12:38

from this week it will be available in

1:12:40

the and the uk and yeah and that aims was

1:12:42

either fight it out by the time this podcast comes

1:12:44

out

1:12:45

it will be a will be available everywhere of

1:12:47

korea's yes so

1:12:50

them

1:12:51

because of you just take a look on the internet

1:12:53

you will find very than by his as

1:12:55

i'm not an expert in that to be honest i

1:12:58

, buy my book myself myself

1:13:01

touch her touch ,

1:13:03

erm i gotta for free well

1:13:09

you can definitely buy it from amazon i know

1:13:12

also the first one

1:13:14

i can mathias doesn't thank

1:13:16

you so much for coming on the real talk with zoo

1:13:18

be show and if you are listening highly

1:13:20

recommend a book it's called the psychology of

1:13:22

totalitarianism so go on amazon

1:13:24

and check that out document is thank

1:13:27

you very much fun and by things and electrical

1:13:29

cozumel electrical setting much to much to with

1:13:31

you