0:19

what's up ladies and gentlemen boys and girls around

0:21

the world i would like to welcome you back to

0:23

the real talk with zoo the podcast

0:26

now today's episode i feel is long

0:28

overdue i'm surprised we have not already

0:30

had this conversation by on today's

0:33

episode i have the one and only jeffrey

0:35

miller who is a well known evolutionary

0:38

psychologist and a very interesting

0:40

sinker out there in the world today so walk

0:42

into the show geoffrey howe

0:44

thanks for to be hers

0:46

awesome so i've done a brief ensure their jeffrey

0:48

but for people who are not familiar with

0:50

you and some of your work the tell them a little

0:52

bit about

0:54

that involved in this field of evolutionary

0:56

psychology for about thirty years

0:59

you know ever since grad school at stanford and

1:01

but we try to do is understand human nature the

1:04

origins of human references

1:07

and desires emotions motivations

1:09

all the kind of architecture that makes

1:11

us human and we try to understand where

1:13

does that come from how does it work how

1:16

does it play out and modern life so

1:18

, on a huge range of stuff like human

1:21

intelligence creativity language

1:23

art music a lot on

1:25

mating and mate choice and why we're attracted

1:28

certain things

1:29

other people both males and females

1:32

particularly like our ,

1:34

traits that are attractive not just physical traits

1:37

i'm a more recently i've gotten

1:39

involved i've gotten like effective altruism movement

1:42

which is about how to do the most good you can

1:44

based on reason and evidence i'm

1:46

quite interested and evidence catastrophic

1:48

risks that come from

1:50

there was a shared humanity and i'm

1:52

pretty active on twitter as on primal

1:54

polly

1:56

awesome while there's so much that we can

1:58

do we can get into on that that before

2:00

we dive right into a jeffrey tell me a little bit more

2:02

about your life story

2:05

tell me more about everything that led

2:07

up to the stage because i'm sure there's

2:09

an interesting story behind this

2:11

just grew up in a nice bourgeois

2:13

family in ohio went to columbia

2:16

university as an undergrad arm

2:19

columbia least back in the eighties

2:21

was awesome because it was kind of like a great books

2:23

western civilization ah

2:26

, liberal education but you could also

2:28

take a lotta courses and and diverse

2:30

topics on i was always fascinated

2:32

by by both western

2:34

and eastern civilization tried

2:36

to study japanese took a lot of

2:38

courses on you know history is on

2:40

china japan india japan

2:43

i'm want to grad school at stanford studied

2:46

cognitive psychology evolutionary psychology

2:49

spent nine years and england actually and

2:51

postdoc or to university of

2:53

sussex university college london london

2:55

university of economics arm and

2:57

since about two thousand and one i've been at university of

3:00

i've mexico and albuquerque com

3:02

and you know visited different other universities

3:05

like n y u stern business school and

3:08

sabbaticals here and air arm

3:10

britain

3:11

five books

3:13

probably the ones you know i'd strongly

3:15

recommend most would be like

3:17

the mating mind my first book spent

3:20

ah from two thousand and eight about consumer

3:22

behavior the know i'd vote did

3:24

a little book called virtue signaling

3:27

when in nineteen that some a

3:29

little more political

3:30

mostly focused on kind of free speech

3:33

and arm why

3:35

it's important

3:36

awesome what is it they got you

3:39

interested in these

3:41

areas to begin with to the point that you

3:43

wanted to dedicate your

3:45

life and career to going into

3:47

them in such dept

3:50

well i'm can ask be you know i've got a little

3:52

touch of the as burgers and like i don't naturally

3:55

understand people's out well and

3:57

so there are two kinds

3:59

of

3:59

people roughly who go into psychology

4:02

this people who are like highly empathic and

4:04

get people kind of naturally and wanna help

4:06

them attorneys people like me who

4:08

are like

4:09

what the hell's going on get people

4:11

are particularly don't understand women i

4:14

, to be very systematic about understanding

4:16

them so i shall study psychology and

4:20

that's what kind of got me into it on

4:22

as an undergraduate and then i thought wow

4:25

the whole process of doing research and

4:27

, to systematically get

4:29

a grip of on human nature is

4:32

just fascinating and rewarding

4:34

and i can't imagine anything more

4:37

fun and always and doing evolutionary psychology

4:40

because anything you can imagine anything that

4:42

anything is of interest this

4:44

kind of a psychology angle

4:46

who it mouth so it's an extremely

4:49

broad

4:50

the field it's very interdisciplinary

4:52

it's very exciting we made a lot of progress

4:55

i think i'm last thirty years who i

4:57

think a lot of people mix up evolutionary psychology

5:00

and evolutionary biology

5:02

so can you please explain

5:05

the difference between them i know i've had

5:07

on guard sat on my podcast

5:09

chest before who's an evolutionary biologist

5:14

well i eat my is like i'm getting psychologists

5:16

way and we didn't six you're you're both evolutionary

5:18

psychologists

5:19

right rather yeah so i all

5:22

honestly all we're trying to do is apply

5:24

all the amazing the syrian

5:26

tools and insights from evolutionary

5:28

biology okay to human

5:31

psychology

5:33

though

5:35

i didn't graduate school i read a huge amount about

5:37

primate behavior animal behavior genetics

5:40

anthropology me know the origins

5:42

of people studies of hunter gatherers

5:44

and tribal people and what you do

5:46

as you try to we've that together and non

5:48

into understanding modern human behavior

5:51

so innocence were were more

5:53

a branch of evolutionary

5:56

biology than we are of kind of sandwich social

5:58

sciences like

5:59

you know gender studies

6:02

or sociology or cultural anthropology

6:05

so we take a very kind of hard sciences

6:08

approach to psychology

6:11

are but it's really informed by thinking

6:13

humans are just another animal were very

6:16

you know unusual special exciting kind of

6:18

animal but a lot of our behavior we

6:20

share with other primates other mammals

6:23

etc

6:24

and what was the first field

6:26

with in that area that really the

6:29

really grabbed you what was the was

6:31

the first thing you went deeper

6:33

i went deep really on sexual selection

6:35

theory august back in grad school circa

6:38

nineteen eighty nine right okay

6:41

i was absolutely fascinated by darwin's

6:43

key insight that oh

6:45

my god we're not just shaped to survive

6:48

or shape to

6:49

like please the preferences of the other

6:51

sacks and and many species

6:54

that's basically males trying to to

6:56

be the kind of males than females want

6:59

but , humans it's neutral mate choice

7:01

both sexes are choosy both

7:03

sexes do courtship both sexes

7:06

try to attract the other sex so

7:08

and assets and little more on balance

7:11

then of course the sexes like somewhat different things

7:13

they attach different weights to

7:16

, traits but the

7:18

basic insight that basic insight what we are

7:21

there to attract the other sacks

7:23

i found extremely powerful

7:25

and i thought this can explain a lot about

7:28

us on our human

7:30

intelligence or language abilities

7:32

why we want to make art and music

7:34

why we wanted wrap etc

7:40

i've gotten a lot of mileage out of that nuts what

7:42

my first book the mating mindless was

7:44

really focused on

7:45

yeah what was the first star or

7:47

what we're somebody insights back

7:50

then that shocked

7:52

or surprised you because you

7:54

said you came into this from a you could use your

7:56

term at term at sort of as be perspective

7:59

ah who are you know a guy who's they're trying

8:01

to understand the opposite sex

8:03

and you know perhaps try to be more attractive to women

8:06

and so on so what were some of the

8:09

or some of the core insights that made

8:11

you go wow that's a that's

8:14

something interesting that perhaps most people

8:16

don't consciously think about or aren't

8:18

even aware of

8:20

what were my favorite topics a sense of

8:22

humor why why a sense

8:24

of humor so attractive

8:27

, important and valuable valuable

8:29

have always been fascinated by stand up comedy

8:31

ever since eighties i've never done it

8:34

but i have like huge respect for comedians

8:36

who are good at it and

8:39

that's one style comedy

8:41

you were often there's like

8:44

sort of us and you know

8:46

extroverted also performing for

8:49

a bunch of people

8:50

the inhuman courtship and sort of intimate

8:52

situations often the best

8:55

humor is like

8:56

very it's very ad hoc

8:58

it's kind of on the fly it's not a pre

9:00

planned story it's just like responding

9:03

to the environment or ongoing social

9:06

situations and saying something witty and

9:08

funny about it why is

9:10

that attractive it seems like a total

9:14

luxury ability that doesn't really

9:16

help you survive like it humor

9:18

doesn't help you find food or

9:20

avoid predators or do

9:23

a lot of other basic survival

9:26

, so what information

9:28

is information conveying

9:31

with my colleagues and grad students we we

9:34

dove into this and basically

9:38

intelligence

9:39

is conveyed pretty well for sense

9:41

of humor and that's one reason i think

9:43

sense of humor as attractive it's kind of like an eye

9:45

to indicator it's , a

9:47

mental health indicator because

9:51

almost every

9:52

the mental disorder you can think of

9:54

whether it's depression anxiety

9:56

ah schizophrenia undermines

9:59

sense of humor it makes people less

10:02

funny it might make them weirder but none

10:05

able to do engaged humor

10:07

as well the humor

10:10

also kind of a testimony to mental health

10:12

happiness , emotional stability

10:15

etc so we're

10:17

always trying to unpack what's the underlying

10:19

logic behind why certain

10:22

things are are attractive

10:24

yeah that's actually interesting i've never i never

10:26

thought of that point you just made of it being

10:29

a potential mental health indicator

10:31

cause you're you're absolutely right that this

10:33

the sense of humor aspect

10:36

is something that those go

10:38

when when people have that as well

10:40

as the i'm

10:42

, know i think we're living in an interesting time actually

10:45

in our society and culture

10:47

where i mean mean

10:49

we're literally talking as not

10:52

one but two comedians not so

10:54

long ago have been attacked on stage

10:56

for telling a joke and

10:59

i've noticed over the past many years

11:01

that a lot of

11:03

people seem to losing their sense of humor

11:06

and its cylinders

11:08

look through this this political lens but

11:10

it's like what what's going on here wire people

11:13

not able to take to take why's everyone

11:16

why people taking more a sense

11:18

of are very sort of minor minor

11:21

things that we're not are

11:23

not really that gratuitous or

11:25

a horribly offensive or anything like that

11:30

so a it's it's an interesting thing to

11:32

note that seems to play on some way

11:35

on both an individual level but also like

11:37

also societal level societal feel i feel like the

11:40

siamese become a bit more

11:43

i'm stuck up

11:45

and grabbed stuck up and fragile in away yeah

11:48

kind of puritanical furious don't like

11:50

humor yes and so

11:52

it's almost like there's a trade off between being

11:54

super earnest and serious about everything

11:56

in life versus being very

11:59

wait for

11:59

i'm not taking anything seriously

12:02

and i think if you you wanna be

12:06

and good relationships that are that are

12:08

productive like with you know a spouse

12:10

or in a serious relationship or even

12:12

a friendship that you value you

12:15

have to be able to kind of go back and forth

12:17

along that spectrum from earnest to

12:19

to humorous so ,

12:22

my lifestyle and i make fun of each

12:24

other a lot fights

12:26

in we try to be sensitive

12:29

to light the context of one we're doing

12:31

it and we also try to make fun

12:33

of ourselves

12:35

as much as of the other person is

12:37

one thing that you see about woken us is

12:40

, almost total inability to

12:42

do healthy something very

12:44

nice make owners themselves so

12:48

i respect some people

12:50

who are kind of you know progressive

12:52

liberals if they have a sense

12:54

of humor about it and they kind of aba and

12:57

, is how this

12:59

can become quite ridiculous

13:01

and guess is our and

13:05

they don't take it too seriously

13:08

the nice i think we are cleaner com

13:11

in danger of losing dot in in

13:13

public discourse particularly social media

13:15

as you and i both know the right a

13:17

lot of people won't take a joke

13:20

and then give it the most

13:22

the return a call judgmental interpretation

13:25

they can and and you know come after you for

13:28

yeah it it's almost like the the principle

13:30

of on charity the are taking

13:32

everything in the worst away possible

13:35

rather than giving people the benefit of the

13:37

doubt and saying okay maybe

13:40

okay i may be that cross the line a little but

13:42

they probably meant it this way it's

13:45

like someone can to say something very

13:47

benign and someone will go out of their

13:49

way to twist and convoluted into

13:52

them being or you

13:54

know potentially meaning something that

13:56

they absolutely didn't and maybe

13:59

i'm just we're pretty to it now with

14:01

the rise of social media and my own profile

14:04

but it i don't feel like people used

14:06

to do that

14:07

so much adding people used to give each other

14:09

the benefit the benefit of the doubt

14:11

more arm and gonna be more willing

14:13

to laugh things off and

14:16

you know forget people when they did maybe

14:18

cross a line by , as

14:20

you said has become very puritanical

14:22

end end that with

14:25

that also comes the sort of a group aggression

14:27

right the the aggression note the mobs the

14:30

you know these these attacks whether online about

14:32

sometimes trickling into the

14:34

real world as well

14:36

green a one one

14:39

, to fight us might be to kind of encourage more

14:41

people to actually do do

14:44

take an improv comedy class do a little

14:46

stand up at an open mike locally

14:49

and figure out just

14:51

how difficult it is to make people

14:53

laugh without being alone transgressive

14:55

yeah my serious a lot of the woke

14:58

folks don't actually

15:00

true enough

15:02

in person social interaction

15:05

that's funny that

15:07

they actually have the experience of understanding

15:09

from the inside what it takes

15:11

actually be funny and and deliver joy

15:14

and laughter to other people's because

15:17

it's basically spending all the time

15:19

you know on their phones and front of their computer

15:21

is not interacting socially just texting

15:23

people

15:25

do not really developing

15:27

they're kind of comedic skills

15:29

are there they're

15:31

not getting like well calibrated about

15:34

how do you actually do human social life

15:37

in a way that is light and playful and

15:39

and funny

15:42

i think if they leveled up so skills you

15:45

know they'd have a lot more tolerance for like

15:48

the

15:49

joe rogan or i'm other

15:51

stand up comedians you know violating

15:54

social norms i wouldn't take those violations

15:56

that seriously they go oh yeah

15:59

i

15:59

do that always i'm in my own

16:01

relationships not a big deal when

16:04

i think something else this this also interesting

16:07

is i've observed that

16:10

maybe i can that maybe that maybe this isn't a new

16:13

the i don't think this is really a new thing i think we're just

16:15

experiencing it in it's latest form

16:18

and this this inability of people

16:20

to separate themselves

16:22

from their ideas or their beliefs in

16:24

any way shape or form so

16:27

if someone's them a belief

16:29

or is is is questioned

16:31

or is challenge or whatever there's

16:34

this this either years

16:36

why we are we all have things that are you very

16:38

very close to us and things that we have that we hold

16:41

deeply why

16:43

if that is even just

16:45

the approach

16:46

or prodded in a in a way that that

16:49

people don't like then there's

16:51

this huge spinola

16:53

backlash and aggression and aggression think actually it's

16:55

important and it it's think it's an ongoing activity

16:58

to be able to separate

17:00

yourself somewhat from

17:03

your beliefs so that if someone questions

17:05

or challenges that yes that might

17:07

be a deeply held belief of yours but it's not

17:09

a non attack on the individual

17:12

the is not going to you're not you're not going after

17:14

the person right so i

17:17

don't like i'm i'm a christian i am

17:19

i i believe i believe in god i know many

17:21

people who don't there's all sorts of different religions

17:23

out there but if someone says

17:25

something about you know made a fair

17:28

comment or criticism or meal asked

17:30

a question about christianity i

17:32

won't blow my lid on them as if like

17:34

they directly are

17:37

trying to attack me or send me or

17:39

whatever it's like a but but i think it takes

17:41

a are you can have to practice that to go

17:43

okay way as interesting why why

17:46

do you think that or cool like let's like

17:48

let's let's this let's have this discussion

17:50

okay i see your perspective this is my perspective

17:52

and share that and

17:55

then i think it gets even harder online because of course

17:59

you can't and

17:59

yeah you're you're get

18:02

say anything without potentially

18:04

iran the bigger the bigger it does a problem the

18:06

i've been experiencing over times by

18:08

the bigger the audience the

18:11

, the less likely

18:13

i don't think i've ever had a viral to eat which haven't

18:15

like which ended somebody's were

18:17

unsuccessful headsets i do like

18:19

that do like my goal undersea i like thinking

18:21

out loud putting my thoughts out there agree

18:24

disagree you know you're

18:26

at you know i think look ,

18:28

anybody who's active on social media

18:30

has a substantial following like whatever

18:33

ten thousand twenty thousand followers whatever

18:35

you have way more followers and i do but you

18:38

know i have my little audience anybody

18:40

who's in that position knows your

18:42

persona in

18:45

social media is not

18:46

your your real life persona

18:49

like i know zoo be on twitter is

18:51

is not the same as in a zoo

18:53

be in and your private life might

18:56

i deliberately chose like if i'm pretty similar

18:58

system for three years it's more

19:00

and more and more than of there's more ability

19:02

for nuance in in a world

19:05

that more ability for know that's

19:08

not to say it's an authentic it's just a different

19:10

facet of of ourselves that we project

19:13

on social media just like when i give a talk at

19:15

a scientific conference that's a particular persona

19:18

that i dot the flight more

19:20

formal more measured more

19:23

more as be whatever

19:26

and

19:28

it's really important for people to be able to separate

19:30

the social media persona us

19:33

from

19:34

you know the real life people and remember

19:36

there's a real life person behind

19:38

i'm just for get back in the seventies

19:41

everybody understood like david bowie

19:43

is gonna adopt a different stage

19:45

persona like for every concert tour

19:48

and not like the real david bowie

19:52

there was an understanding that like this is

19:54

partly

19:56

formative

19:58

and yet

19:59

the

19:59

the be in a way more authentic on

20:03

social media when you're

20:05

saying what you really think then perhaps

20:07

you might say in your private life to to friends

20:09

and family

20:11

i think a big problem with social media

20:13

as well beyond just the the

20:15

, and the amount of information

20:18

and the speed of it is that and

20:20

i think this happens on twitter especially and especially think i've made

20:22

this point on previous start with start

20:25

hot topic or the latest political

20:28

controversy or throwing out

20:30

your throwing out religious convictions or thoughts

20:32

on this or that right you start always with common ground

20:35

that you start with an introduction you build

20:37

some common ground you build some or poor

20:39

you establish that you're both decent human beings

20:41

and then maybe if you talk for a long time you

20:43

might get into some more interesting

20:46

topics but on twitter this happens

20:48

in reverse though the first time someone

20:50

comes across jeffrey miller the first time someone

20:52

comes comes across you bitch it's quite

20:54

probable that that

20:56

is it it's something that we said which was

20:59

you know was bit a bit edgy or controversial

21:02

are going against the narrative or something

21:04

and something people then very

21:06

quickly formless caricature the

21:08

who they think you are everything about you

21:11

your story always he believed this you

21:13

must also believe all of these other things and

21:15

and whatever and sometimes sometimes

21:18

they might be accurate but most

21:20

of the time they're they're really far off

21:22

so people have this image of

21:24

who you are also there's no

21:27

there's no facial expressions there's no tone

21:29

there's no anything and so with

21:32

it this embodiment and the conversation

21:35

starting already had some kind of

21:37

tension i think is very

21:39

easy for people to just end up screaming

21:42

at each other and like that there's

21:44

met so many people on twitter or on social

21:46

media in general media think who i think i met this

21:48

person in person in in real world we'd

21:51

probably get on right

21:54

lie that we didn't we to leave be civil that at a

21:56

minimum but just

21:58

because of the way this has happened the way

22:00

we kind of discovered each other you're

22:02

almost at this at this impasse and then

22:04

of course you have an audience looking

22:06

on and so no one wants to

22:10

people don't like changing their mind publicly or

22:12

someone doesn't want to concede anything or

22:14

whatever and it just ends up in this in

22:16

this type of fight and i don't think it's very conducive

22:19

to much

22:20

yeah we're my wife and i had the interesting

22:22

experience back in january of going to this

22:24

conference calls for about a con and

22:27

erotic on was at st a hotel in miami

22:29

and basically it was it a a hundred

22:32

people from kind of like

22:34

intellectual dark web and alternative

22:36

centrists and different kinds

22:38

i like heterodox thinkers most

22:41

of us knew each other

22:42

through twitter

22:43

i had met in person before

22:46

and so you're hanging out and you know finn hotel

22:49

bar meet know these people by you by

22:51

you them and you've actually like

22:53

the amd were some you've read tweeted damn

22:55

you've interacted answers media a

22:57

lot they've never met him in person and

23:00

there was kind of awkwardness were like

23:03

you kind of know a lot about

23:05

lot about limited

23:07

part of their persona

23:10

then you know almost nothing about

23:12

their tone of voice how they actually interact

23:15

everything else are interested in and

23:18

you can have to build a relationship

23:20

the

23:21

from scratch surrogates as a

23:23

good insight that are yeah we

23:25

we kind of start

23:27

backwards on twitter from the to

23:30

suffer normally it would take you several

23:32

hours of any amount to get to

23:36

and i

23:38

don't know maybe in the future there will be some kind of

23:41

a form of social media the

23:43

metaverse god forbid or whatever that

23:47

maybe allows maybe more naturals file of

23:49

som

23:50

interaction yeah yeah

23:53

it's something that's possible it's just that it's

23:56

it's difficult it's difficult because

23:59

we all have our by if he's we all have our prejudices

24:02

in all sorts of directions even even

24:04

those of us who

24:05

right

24:06

the something that humans out because you'll you'll

24:08

see at you'll see the kind of what you do next you go you

24:10

look at the bio have a quick look at the bios like okay

24:13

i see this an ass so boom you put

24:15

them in this box and down

24:17

mean hey i do this i mean there's a law called

24:19

out you know jeebies razor which i've said you know someone

24:22

has their pronouns in the bio and

24:24

on research or

24:26

gender i generally try i i'm i'm

24:28

often i'm think i've had like three people who have

24:30

disprove this

24:31

on over probably

24:34

a three year period the

24:36

the i don't want to job

24:38

to such conclusions but it's like you end up creating

24:40

heuristics armed but then someone

24:42

else might see i you know like an american flag

24:44

and hashtag mega in someone elses pro ana like

24:46

oh gosh okay this is this is this person

24:48

in this is that person but again

24:51

if they met in real life it would be like hey nice to me

24:53

what's your name okay cool i'm from here you're from there

24:55

so on and so forth and you

24:57

know that pronouns in the bio person and

24:59

that mega american flag person that

25:02

actually you don't get on and just have a decent

25:04

conversation and they wouldn't they

25:07

are they wouldn't be screaming at each other and thinking thinking

25:09

one another are are evil or

25:11

racist or whatever other

25:14

thing whatever is i'm in phobia

25:16

they want to put out there

25:18

i think we can a lost art of

25:20

of feeling like there's

25:23

a kind of civic obligation to be able to get

25:25

along with people of them and political views

25:28

the like my parents were very active in local

25:30

politics and cincinnati ohio and

25:32

they were involved in all kinds of groups you

25:34

know local planning board of school

25:37

boards or like leave leader women

25:39

voters were there was there was diversity

25:41

of political views among the people

25:44

actively engaged and were you're

25:47

you're a neighborhoods where people actually

25:49

talk to their neighbors and the kids

25:51

play together and as genuine community

25:55

and so everybody salt lake

25:58

we have a kind of moral obligation

25:59

the be able to get along with people

26:02

vote differently from us and think

26:04

different things and you

26:06

, maybe we're all going to same church

26:08

every sunday and we know we

26:10

don't agree about things but we

26:12

have to get along i think that

26:14

kind of civic virtue of

26:18

there were like everybody has individual

26:21

responsibility to at

26:23

least

26:24

the able to see the other side's

26:26

when of you were trying to losing

26:28

that and that's

26:31

the project because it means you don't really and

26:33

up with any real civil

26:35

society you don't have a a

26:38

community once you lose

26:40

as an evolutionary psychologist

26:42

what are your thoughts on

26:44

this sort of this you could

26:46

call this this new challenge

26:48

in scaling

26:50

and quantity i mean

26:53

the notion that we

26:55

are able to connect with

26:58

and reach on a daily basis hundreds

27:00

of thousands or millions of

27:02

people as far as

27:04

human history goes i

27:07

mean that never existed

27:09

before unless you are unless you are

27:11

king or queen and

27:13

even then it was it was localized in your geographic

27:15

area but having this ability to

27:17

from your smartphone or for the a laptop

27:20

through social media through you tube you

27:22

podcast and so on to reach and connect

27:24

with vast amounts

27:26

of people all over the world as

27:29

much as i love that and it's amazing and

27:31

i built my career off it it also

27:33

freaks me out because i'm just like this is so

27:36

the natural and there is no there's

27:39

no blueprint for how

27:41

this is supposed to work this is just a complete

27:43

experiment i'm not meant to be connected

27:45

to over a million people like that's

27:47

not

27:48

normal it's cool it's

27:51

cool but it is if not normal on

27:54

the completely surreal it yeah

27:56

it's

27:58

basically impossible for a kind

27:59

the ordinary social primate brain

28:02

like ours right are we've

28:04

evolved

28:05

the most spend most of our time and little

28:08

clans have like twenty or thirty people

28:10

that are kind of like extended family and our

28:12

mates and and kind and laws

28:14

and punch kids and

28:16

, that exists within the context

28:18

of a bigger tribe which is

28:20

a time bunch of clans maybe up two

28:23

thousand and two thousand people might

28:25

kind of speaking the same dialect and once

28:27

in awhile getting together for ortiz

28:30

or rituals or whatever but the scale

28:32

a modern society is is

28:34

you know orders of magnitude bigger than that

28:36

that it's fast and scale and yet and

28:39

yeah we're trying to deal with it

28:41

this very tribal

28:43

brain

28:45

editor's real as you do public

28:47

performances that her you know

28:49

streaming to

28:51

hundreds of thousands millions of people

28:56

you have to develop these little tricks routed how

28:58

to deal with it like when i'm writing a book

29:02

basically have like

29:03

the one ideal reader

29:05

in mind i can't think about

29:07

thousands of readers there's like the one

29:09

ideal reader who

29:11

i hope will read it and i'm writing for that one

29:13

person

29:15

likewise you know i ,

29:17

one reason these kind of podcast on

29:20

talks work is

29:22

that i sort of have illusion

29:24

i'm just talking to zoo be and you're just talking

29:26

to me then the

29:28

fact that there's maybe thousands of of

29:30

people who will later eavesdrop on it

29:33

the

29:35

isn't really that syria

29:36

right and it lets us be relatively natural

29:40

but man if i was like up on stage like billie

29:42

i wish doing a live performance one hundred thousand

29:44

people and coliseum huge

29:47

respect for the people who can do that

29:49

i would find out

29:52

just absolutely trippy and

29:54

yeah bizarre do you know

29:56

it's interesting actually

29:59

as a

29:59

at a performer i'm is

30:03

performing the smaller crowds

30:05

the is the

30:08

a triggers more the that

30:11

kind of nervous energy then

30:14

if you're doing or like a larger performs outperformed

30:16

it if you festivals and stuff like that know never two hundred

30:18

thousand people but certainly to thousands

30:20

of people and it's harder to do

30:22

a performance to like twenty

30:25

or thirty people in her room then

30:27

to even two two or

30:29

three thousand in my experience

30:32

because there's a number where

30:34

you don't really see individuals

30:36

anymore right like

30:38

if you prefer that of many people you can see

30:41

each person's face

30:43

and how they're responding to each song

30:45

and you know you can you can talk to

30:47

you can make eye contact with each individual

30:49

and it feels a lot sort sort

30:52

of closer but actually want to get

30:54

past a certain level it the

30:57

oh but you're pretty feels more one to one in

30:59

a way kind of ever have a reverts back to that one

31:02

to one feeling whereas i all doesn't

31:04

matter how many people out there as just a crowd

31:06

so i'm going to do this i can look

31:08

and everyone's eyes i can really see everyone's reaction

31:11

who's paying attention who's getting worse as twenty people

31:13

i can tell if one person's not enjoying the show

31:15

like i can see how that person is getting bored or he's

31:17

starting to talk to he's talking about person

31:19

over there and it actually distracts you as a performer

31:21

keziah like you , just

31:24

icing feel like doing all that but actually

31:26

it if it's tons you it's tons notice any

31:30

yeah i heard every academic has this

31:32

like we actually signed it way easier

31:35

to do on a large class like

31:37

lecturing two hundred two hundred students

31:39

than to do a small seminar where it's like ten

31:41

to twenty students and , you can

31:44

see is all the reactions

31:46

and you much more acutely self

31:48

conscious if you've got got know a

31:50

ten students seminar than

31:53

i'm a much bigger performances

31:56

i'm

31:58

so i'm i'm gonna introverted and not

32:00

naturally like

32:02

there's a confident outgoing

32:04

that's true of a lot of professors like

32:06

worthy introverted nerds percent in graduate

32:08

school you have to learn how to teach to

32:11

, big classes most of us

32:13

can learn to do it pretty well but

32:16

we stole you're like small

32:18

seminars or little bit socially

32:21

, because you've got that kind of one

32:24

to one eye contact and you can read people's expressions

32:26

and you can see when they're bored if

32:29

you're in luck trying to a

32:32

large class are you doing like stand

32:34

up comedy for thousands of people then

32:37

you can just kind of blur everybody out

32:39

take like the average energy of

32:41

the room

32:43

and kind of feed on that without having

32:47

the kind of monitor individual

32:49

reactions what you're doing

32:50

the here that switching topics

32:53

a little be jeffrey i saw some of the questions

32:55

that people had put you on twitter so

32:58

instead of that going through each of them one

33:00

by one i saw i saw of questions just

33:02

about the challenges

33:05

and some of the questions and concerns around

33:08

men and women in society

33:10

today especially young men and young women

33:13

it seems like there's a lot of

33:16

confusion lot of loneliness

33:18

there's various mental health

33:21

issues that are popping up and i also think

33:23

that just , terms of people

33:25

knowing their place and knowing their

33:27

roles perhaps we're at

33:29

an all time low of that not really

33:32

being clear for

33:34

a lot of young people so can use share

33:36

some of your thoughts on that what do you think some of the

33:39

big challenges that men

33:41

and women and people together

33:44

our

33:45

facing in this regard

33:49

this is this has been a big

33:52

the issue for years and years i mean that the

33:54

challenge of men and women fighting each other

33:56

and having good relationships as what you know

33:58

inspired tucker max and

33:59

to write to mate book and twenty fifteen

34:03

and i was intended as for have taken

34:06

, dating advice young single straight guys

34:09

guys how to level up how to

34:11

improve their attractiveness the women

34:13

and not just physical attractiveness but

34:15

also like how do you cultivate your social skills

34:18

and you sense of humor and your sense of style

34:20

and style career and

34:22

you're on you're dating skills

34:26

and we were kind of playing against

34:29

the previous pick up artist approach

34:32

which is basically less developed like sociopathic

34:35

manipulative tactics that kind of hit

34:37

women's hot buttons and

34:39

try to get them into bad as soon as possible

34:43

when we ran the made in grounds podcast

34:45

was associated with shot that book

34:48

project

34:49

we had hundreds of young men calling in

34:52

was questions very very

34:54

few of them wanted to just

34:56

like maximize notches on the belt

34:58

maximize number of women aged fatwas

35:01

the typical young guy just

35:03

wants a girlfriend

35:05

just like any com friend anybody

35:07

who's pretty good who they can hang out

35:09

with and play video

35:11

games with and have sex with and have some

35:15

some validation with that's

35:17

, they want and they have no idea how to get

35:19

it it seems

35:21

like their parents failed to

35:24

educate them in sort of how

35:26

male and female psychology works public

35:29

schools had failed them right we

35:31

have sex education but we don't have like relationship

35:33

education or courtroom education

35:38

you know

35:39

mass media had sort of failed

35:41

them because you don't actually learn

35:44

how to have a successful date just by watching

35:47

romantic comedies them

35:50

or by watching typical long form

35:52

dramatic tv series why because

35:56

the screenwriters are lazy

35:58

they create all

35:59

kind of artificial conflict

36:02

then couples

36:04

that's a terrible role model

36:07

the young people right if you think

36:09

you should behave in a relationship the way that

36:11

most people in marriages

36:13

in movies behave you

36:16

have an awful lot of pointless stupid arguments

36:18

about and

36:21

so we think it's kind of a failure

36:23

of education

36:26

what happened now is with

36:28

hendra dating apps a lot of

36:30

people see

36:32

i think they're seeing other people having way

36:34

more a sexual success than they are

36:38

they see other people having what

36:40

i think are great relationships it

36:43

to the

36:43

being glamorized on instagram

36:47

they're not actually getting very many reality

36:49

checks about how these things actually unfolds

36:51

and and , you can do in

36:54

and realized kind of be

36:56

more attractive have better relationships understand

36:59

the other sex better

37:01

in my year that i think

37:03

also i think a big problem the way we actually

37:05

happened society is just one of it's

37:09

weird because it seems like simultaneously

37:11

we have problems of a both both scarcity

37:14

and abundance and perhaps they're

37:17

those things are not as

37:19

the opposite

37:20

as it might seem i

37:22

ate i feel this way everything

37:24

from them ,

37:26

relationships to food

37:29

on the a

37:31

just the a lot of sorts social behavior it's

37:33

almost like things

37:35

have been so materially

37:38

good for a while i mean if

37:40

if your the young person

37:42

do that i'll probably for forty

37:44

and under we we

37:46

haven't really knows be very very peaceful

37:49

on there haven't been a massive

37:51

sort of global struggles that humans

37:53

have the past would have constantly been dealing with

37:56

we have an ad major world wars

37:58

or anything like that there are tons of

38:00

young men have been shipped off to fight in battle

38:03

or we've you know facing some type

38:05

of salmon or them yes we

38:07

we had this out your pandemic for two years but

38:09

if we're being honest was very very

38:11

mild compared to are many

38:13

of the things that humans have dealt with in

38:16

the past and it seems

38:18

like with that the order

38:20

of material success and lack

38:22

of threats coupled

38:25

with this rise of the

38:27

technology and smartphones and social

38:30

media and interconnectedness and all of

38:32

these apps and everything it's

38:34

like we have so much but

38:36

i think it's made people feel like day

38:39

they have little or they don't know what to do that

38:41

they admitted there there's too much out there there's

38:43

so much that they don't know they don't want to choose they

38:45

don't know what to do they don't know their role they don't know where

38:47

they fit in and and it looks

38:49

like as you said it looks can

38:51

see everybody else is life for the highlight reel

38:53

of their life and it looks like oh well this person has

38:55

added this girl looks like that and that guy has

38:58

that and you know makes people feel i

39:00

think especially this this hits teens

39:02

and perhaps people in their early twenties

39:06

it's interesting because i mean i'm i'm thirty five

39:09

though it's funny to think that i'm really

39:11

part of that last generation that's

39:14

had grown up with both without

39:16

the internet and a whole to social media and

39:19

also with it with someone who's even just ten

39:21

years younger than me twenty five i'm

39:23

like man you you

39:25

that's always been there like or you when

39:28

facebook started you are

39:30

just a child and then you

39:32

know you you haven't known the world without all of this

39:34

stuff so i think that's also have a

39:36

big shift that sorta happened in humanity

39:38

that people haven't necessarily thought

39:40

much about

39:43

yeah i imagine that one one

39:45

big challenge that young people face

39:47

the that

39:49

they're exposed to video

39:52

games and t the and i'm

39:54

all kinds of entertainment media the

39:56

are vastly better than anything

39:59

ever before

39:59

history right like recent

40:02

avengers movies are just better movies and

40:04

any shots in the twentieth century

40:09

political twitter is more interesting

40:11

than almost any newspaper

40:13

would have been my twenty years or fifty

40:16

years ago i kind of had the the good

40:18

fortune to grow up you know as a teenager

40:20

like

40:21

in the eighties were

40:23

talking to

40:25

intelligent young women

40:27

was far more interesting than

40:30

any of the broadcast television

40:32

that was available there were no

40:35

very compelling video games girls

40:37

were the most interesting thing in the world literally

40:40

my cognitively and

40:42

that's weird spend for ninety for ninety of human

40:45

evolution the people around

40:47

you

40:48

the key sources of education

40:51

and inspiration and inspiration and

40:54

and now you have a global entertainment

40:56

system that means

40:59

like going on a date and

41:01

actually paying attention to the person across

41:04

the table from you like

41:06

is it even doesn't even make the top

41:08

ten list of the most interesting ways you

41:10

could spend two hours

41:12

for a lot of people i think

41:14

not

41:16

and i worry that this leads

41:19

the probably gonna unrealistic expectations

41:22

about like what a real life relationship would look

41:24

like and , know from the data

41:26

on people like not having as much

41:28

sex as they didn't eighties and not being

41:30

in relationships are not living was people until

41:32

they're in their thirties or forties

41:35

ever

41:36

the people are basically treating

41:39

intimate sexual relationships as like optional

41:43

rather than

41:45

the foundation of of like shared

41:47

life with someone

41:49

i mean that that's so interesting and the

41:52

just the other day i may have known about this for years

41:54

but the other day i was looking into our sank

41:57

a thing in the and the and the entire world

42:00

japan that has the lowest

42:02

low birthrate like their population is plummeting

42:05

and i was actually just reading

42:07

just a a articles online

42:09

about this phenomenon and interesting

42:13

because that is also one of the most technologically advanced

42:15

countries in the world and

42:18

you see that as that technology has progressed

42:20

and certain things have shifted that mean

42:22

i'm sure you've heard the term herbivore men which

42:25

they are signs of these men who are

42:27

just not even was , really interested

42:29

in women they just kind of their contract out

42:31

name you know maybe have their career and they played a video

42:33

games and do their hobby and whatever

42:35

but you know everyone's just isolated

42:38

some of them will pay a lot of money just to just

42:40

talk to a woman because they're so socially

42:43

awkward and they feel so isolated

42:46

and i'm you know i i do have

42:48

concerns that things across

42:50

the developed world are is trending

42:53

in that direction and then you've got our concepts

42:56

like you touched on it for you know the metaverse

42:58

which i'm then from from

43:00

a technological standpoint is interesting

43:04

by if you see the way some

43:06

people are so hardcore addicted to their smartphones

43:09

already allegiances how many couples

43:11

have you seen our out on dates in restaurants not

43:13

even talking to each other just sitting there on their phones

43:17

i'm just like man or what

43:19

about having this tool kit where someone

43:21

can just sit sit at home

43:24

and

43:25

basically be and different person

43:27

in a different reality living in

43:29

a different world not just video games not

43:31

just social media but that multiplied

43:34

by virtual reality and

43:36

i'm like mass deaths some

43:40

that it's it's learn and way

43:42

i mean i think extremely good compelling

43:45

virtual reality entertainment is

43:47

is in a way an existential threat

43:49

to humanity because , leads

43:51

people to allocate a lot more time and

43:53

money and energy to sort of

43:55

just interacting virtually

43:58

with like the most

43:59

then arresting people in the world that you can find rather

44:02

than living with sam and

44:04

making babies without

44:06

right then

44:08

humanity goes extinct pretty quick

44:11

pretty quick like and it it is in

44:13

as kind of slow motion extinction event

44:15

in japan and in a lot

44:17

of europe

44:20

like particularly spain and italy for some reason

44:22

have incredibly low fertility rates

44:25

so i think unless we confront this as

44:28

a civilization and

44:30

think yeah how are we actually gonna we then

44:33

serious long term sexual relationships and

44:35

having kids and raising them and having families

44:37

with this , technology

44:41

ah

44:42

yeah we're done for and i feel

44:44

it in my own life i've got to do

44:46

so amazing two month old daughter

44:49

and i find myself

44:52

messing around on twitter when

44:54

i should be in are

44:57

you going , her and

44:59

she gives me these look sometimes like

45:02

i was wrong with you like

45:04

i'm the vessel of your genes

45:07

i am

45:08

you're about to like immortality

45:12

and and descendants and future generations

45:15

and here you are messing around with this

45:17

this

45:18

virtual

45:20

the environment social media site

45:22

i get it i feel that poll

45:24

but i think if weekend

45:27

you know help each other

45:30

ah kind of resist the temptation

45:33

stay based stay grounded stay

45:35

focused on family pro

45:37

natal isn't babies

45:40

create the next generation if

45:42

you know if we fail then humanity

45:45

tales

45:46

the am i am me i is so interesting

45:48

i know that i'm it's

45:51

it's good to to talk to someone who

45:54

who shares that perspective because there

45:56

are also are lot of people especially

45:58

in the west to our for all

46:00

intents and purposes ante natal list

46:03

and , will stick

46:06

by the notion that though the world is overpopulated

46:08

and that the best thing you can do for climate change

46:11

is to not have children or to have fewer

46:13

children in that you know there's

46:15

just too many people on the planet and this is some

46:17

great existential threat which i think

46:19

we will you you you you know that i've i'm

46:22

a i'm no fan of that narrative nor

46:24

the lever in it but

46:26

it does seem to have gained a

46:29

lot of ground and be implanted in

46:31

a lot of people's brains whether or not

46:33

they whether or not they sort

46:35

of explicitly recognize a i think

46:37

over the past few decades it's kind of been

46:40

programmed do a lot of the

46:42

that that the media and culture for

46:45

people to think that having

46:47

children are certainly having a lot of children is

46:49

this kind of know selfish thing that

46:51

harming the planet and feels bad for the

46:53

climate and you know or

46:55

that there's is gonna lead to some type of chaos

46:58

or we're going to run out of fresh water

47:01

or we're gonna run out of this and all

47:03

of that i mean i think all of this has been

47:05

debunked by people who truly study this

47:07

but i'm i think it's still quite a pervasive

47:10

in powerful narrative

47:11

yeah it's really powerful and it's

47:14

in a way it's

47:15

it is the heart of weakness that the thing that

47:17

really pisses me off about woke this it's

47:19

it's not the hostility to free

47:21

speech itself the bizarre gender politics

47:24

it's not the anti science it's it's

47:26

the ante natal us

47:28

it's the justifying

47:31

hey you're

47:32

the message that you're more virtuous

47:35

if you live by yourself and player video

47:37

games and have the minimal impact on

47:40

the planet than if you actually

47:42

make the next generation and

47:45

out to me is it's anti human

47:47

it's actually incredibly selfish and

47:50

it's just a rationalization for

47:53

them

47:54

laziness and at a kind of solid

47:56

says

47:57

this as

47:58

as long as i'm not

48:00

like using too many resources

48:03

i'm better than you guys you

48:06

mormons you baptists whatever

48:08

who are having a bunch of kids on

48:11

well that's fine take that's you but guess

48:13

what and hundred generations it's

48:16

gonna be in the fundamentalist

48:20

christians and muslims

48:21

who will dominate

48:23

the future and the people

48:25

who show up the people have kids that's

48:28

the future so you either

48:30

play that game

48:33

are you opt out but i think

48:35

it's important for you know the

48:37

woke to realize

48:39

workers won't last more than

48:42

there are three generations

48:45

if they don't actually have kids

48:46

do you think that in places

48:49

like japan and certain european

48:51

countries do what what sort of risk

48:53

do you see their have a

48:55

, population collapse

48:57

because i think it

48:59

is very hard for the human brain to think about anything

49:02

that's got an exponential components

49:05

though i think people imagine

49:08

okay that's fine because it's just like a a

49:10

linear decline but it's not cause if

49:12

one generation haven't

49:15

you know sustained doesn't sustain it's numbers

49:17

than a there's fewer people in the next

49:19

one and a can actually declined very very precipitously

49:23

and i don't think people number

49:26

one recognize that just as a kind of mathematical

49:28

function but also think

49:30

about okay well what sort of

49:32

impact would that have on a society

49:35

if you know there are millions fewer people

49:38

manage millions less people than there there

49:40

were previously i'm

49:42

in a country such as back then what

49:45

what does that mean for what

49:48

what does that mean for the country

49:51

yeah i have very mixed feelings about this

49:53

because on the one hand there's a part

49:55

of me that kind of assumes like

49:58

life spans will

49:59

can you to be about as long as a to

50:02

and on that assumption you

50:04

know if japan

50:06

that is only having like one child

50:08

per woman the population dropped by house

50:11

every single generation until pretty

50:13

soon no more japanese on

50:15

, other hand there's a part of me

50:17

very interested in regenerative medicine

50:19

and longevity and new by

50:21

medical breakthroughs said maybe

50:23

could help extend not

50:25

just human lifespan but human what

50:29

david sinclair at harvard calls whole span

50:31

like the number of decades you're healthy

50:33

and active and you could potentially were so

50:37

if you have like an aging population

50:39

but everybody is still

50:42

you know healthy and capable

50:44

and strong and able to function

50:47

at age

50:48

one hundred or hundred fifty then

50:51

it doesn't matter as much

50:53

how many kids around

50:55

could you can sustain the population

50:58

longer so i feel

51:00

this feel this of dichotomy

51:02

really part of me as hoping for

51:05

longevity treatments like

51:08

, don't want to die out for live another hundred

51:10

years i'd prefer to see my daughter's great great grandchildren

51:12

if possible possible

51:15

but on the other hand part of me knows like

51:17

that might not happen

51:19

the might not happen for a while and

51:22

the hedge your bets it's probably good tonight

51:25

keep having kids

51:28

what's it been like for you

51:31

it is this your is your daughter your

51:33

for fresh out not gonna twenty five

51:35

year old daughter okay okay i've smears

51:38

my recruit hotel a check

51:40

out there are many decades ago

51:42

yeah i was what with the new baby

51:45

as like oh man i haven't changed a diaper

51:47

since the nineties okay

51:52

so i'm not gonna say out as i was like

51:54

way out i was because initials about say

51:57

the new five another way that night i

51:59

don't think i don't think the rochelle i'm

52:01

what what's it like having having

52:03

to deal with her and a new born again

52:06

at the stage in the game

52:08

it's it's fine it's on

52:10

she's delightful she's very well behaved

52:14

my , is very very savvy about

52:16

training baby getting baby on a

52:18

schedule making the

52:20

parenting process as easy as possible

52:23

easy as a lot of americans

52:26

brits europeans texas

52:29

, stupid approach to

52:31

parenting that is

52:34

like just do whatever the baby

52:36

seems to want will

52:38

be slaves to babies ah

52:40

desire we won't read anything

52:43

about how to actually get

52:45

them on a schedule and train them and and

52:47

help them flourish in a way

52:49

that fits with our lives right

52:51

they become like fulltime parents in

52:54

a very inefficient way the doesn't

52:56

actually make them or the or the baby

52:58

happy i'm

53:00

also when i sort of and else

53:03

on twitter of got a baby a lot of people are like

53:05

oh man you're too old how can you possibly

53:07

think about having a baby in your fifties or

53:10

the optimal time is you know

53:12

in your twenties when you've got

53:13

energy

53:15

i thought

53:17

honestly

53:18

i have about as much energy now as i said

53:20

the suspect i try to say pretty good shape

53:23

you know

53:24

i don't work out and as much as you do but

53:27

you know i try to stay healthy and

53:30

the rate of decline in physical capability

53:32

and energy level is not that steep

53:36

if you make a little effort to stay healthy

53:38

so

53:40

i think a lot of people have a little more

53:43

hi then

53:46

they might sink

53:47

but that's

53:49

and another guy or or

53:51

a woman

53:55

the lot of women seem to think that they they

53:57

can

53:57

the like wait until forty to find a

53:59

guy

53:59

in and start trying to have kids and like

54:02

hope for the best the know be much they're

54:04

often quite disappointed so like

54:09

my wife and i often talk with women

54:12

about like planning to reproductive careers

54:15

is and how important it is to really seriously

54:17

think ahead about that like

54:20

ah no you

54:22

can get your anti malarial hormone

54:24

a a mates hormone levels checked and that's

54:26

a pretty good predictor of like how

54:28

long until menopause how long do you have

54:30

if you're a woman or ,

54:33

fertile and , of women

54:35

even smart women in academia like

54:37

in their late twenties early thirties have no

54:39

idea what they're mh lovelace never

54:42

checked it day they don't even know

54:44

when their own mother's reach menopause so

54:47

her trying to plan like a career and a potential

54:50

family without really

54:52

knowing realistically

54:54

you know how many more years to them

54:57

yeah well man that leaves onto

54:59

a you know i have a general topic which

55:01

is that you know we i think

55:03

we live really we really live in an age where

55:06

it's the in implicitly determined

55:09

that subject to

55:12

opinions and people's

55:15

emotions are should supersede

55:18

and trump objective facts

55:20

and biological realities on

55:23

and i think one thing that's quite the ranging

55:25

about the time that we live in his there's

55:29

three narratives all going on at once and

55:31

you're supposed to believe all of them number

55:33

one is that what is more than three but on

55:36

this topic you're supposed to believe that men

55:40

are you know men and women are

55:42

the same

55:43

and also that the different

55:46

and also that they're interchangeable or that their

55:49

social construct them that they don't really

55:51

exist and you're supposed to when

55:54

depending on the scenario you're supposed to kind of believe

55:57

the each of those ones at different times

55:59

right you're supposed to acknowledge

56:02

, men and women are are the same and totally

56:04

equal yo from physically

56:06

and mentally in terms their interest in terms

56:08

of their biology in terms of you

56:11

know their reproductive age all of this stuff

56:13

stuff kind of the politically correct position

56:16

in that way but then with other things you're supposed to acknowledge

56:18

the actually know my mentor men are

56:20

these oppressors and women are victors and you

56:22

know this the patriarchy and you know there's this delineation

56:25

and it's very clear and women have these very special

56:27

struggles and need these different parts

56:30

protections and so on as a protected class

56:33

and then there's then entire gender ideology

56:35

thing which is like are you know what is what woman not offer

56:37

a woman is anyone who identifies as anyone woman you know you

56:39

can have a beard and venus and you can be and

56:41

woman and whatever and so it's

56:44

all quite d ranging and i think it leads

56:46

to a lot of people like you said even

56:48

even smart people not

56:50

recognizing just some the

56:53

some realities i mean i i did not create

56:55

biology i didn't invent the way to

56:58

reproduction happens in whatever but

57:00

there are certain things that are in i

57:02

understand they're uncomfortable for for

57:04

people or you know you don't really want to acknowledge

57:06

certain things but something's is to say this

57:08

is just reality and actually i

57:11

would say that you you someone is doing

57:13

a i to get a society

57:15

is doing women a terrible disservice if

57:18

the general message is that

57:21

yeah it's totally fine to you know wait

57:23

until your forties to find a man and

57:25

start a family and by that's totally fine

57:27

oh you know that that so and so celebrity had just

57:29

had a baby at forty eight so you'll be fine to yeah

57:32

mike your that that's it that

57:34

a reckless that iraq was message

57:36

or might make people feel good why

57:40

the you know i think that leads to despair for a lot

57:42

of people and it's it's simply not that's

57:44

simply not true the is is not is not

57:46

correct and i didn't invent now

57:49

it's just

57:50

just how it is and it seemed like in the past people inherently

57:53

new this and it was just like the obvious

57:56

but i now it's like if you say that

57:58

out loud the people kind of the you

58:00

like your some misogynist or something

58:04

the or and

58:05

i think one of the really toxic i'm

58:08

views a tree communists basically that biology

58:10

is nothing more than oppression and

58:13

and biology is limitation and constraint

58:16

and that everybody should present their

58:19

biology they should resent their genes they

58:21

should resent any saying that

58:23

evolution gave them amir

58:26

great thing about evolution biology of

58:28

looseness ecology studying all

58:31

that stuff is that the huge amount of gratitude

58:34

you feel towards like your dna

58:37

and your biology and

58:39

being able to wake up every morning and go oh

58:41

my god this is amazing like my heart beats

58:44

millions of times and lifetime without me having

58:46

to pay any attention to awesome

58:49

i have the three pound brain that can

58:51

think all these thoughts and have experiences

58:54

and

58:55

you know

58:57

most to the universe isn't like that it

58:59

isn't sentiment that isn't aware it's

59:02

it's just

59:03

why condolence stupid and

59:06

yet a lot of people seem to

59:08

grow up with the idea that

59:11

well it's only it weren't for biology

59:14

we would all be like infinitely free

59:16

and infinitely equal and everything

59:19

would be awesome if if we didn't

59:21

have bodies and then we didn't have dna and

59:23

we didn't m jeans and

59:25

so me that is just so

59:27

stupid and delusional because i'm

59:32

biologists the foundation of everything beautiful

59:36

and important and valuable asset go

59:38

about

59:39

humans

59:40

them and now i know in a religious

59:43

perspective you know there's there's

59:45

a different view you can take on that isn't

59:48

even there i'm i'm kind of

59:50

a fan of john paul the seconds

59:53

or theology the body and and catholic

59:55

doctrine that says respect

59:59

the body

1:00:00

because if you believe in a divine

1:00:02

creator the creator made

1:00:05

it and made it

1:00:06

war

1:00:08

spiritual and theological reasons

1:00:10

that her worth diving into

1:00:12

the i think there's a a funny

1:00:16

overlap between evolutionary biology

1:00:18

gratitude due to the body

1:00:20

and two and two or jeans and

1:00:22

even like a

1:00:24

i'm a a catholic

1:00:26

respect for it as sort of a manifestation

1:00:29

of like divine providence

1:00:31

and providence and you feel grateful to god

1:00:34

rather than just grateful to your genes

1:00:36

the

1:00:37

the only a lot of people who reject both

1:00:39

of those perspectives and are just like

1:00:41

god i hate my body i hate my

1:00:43

jeans i hate my parents i hate my ancestors

1:00:47

they brought me nothing but he no

1:00:50

guilt and shame

1:00:51

yeah why thing to to big problems

1:00:55

the way we face again in a modern

1:00:57

west are number one

1:00:59

lack of gratitude the

1:01:01

number to lack of perspective i

1:01:03

think as our a modern american

1:01:06

or brick or whatever you know it's it's

1:01:10

easy to you know the truth is that

1:01:12

the world is full of was

1:01:15

it positive and negative it's full of

1:01:17

light is full of darkness is full of love

1:01:19

and joy and happiness but sorrow

1:01:21

and violence and injustice and

1:01:24

it's it's complicated then

1:01:27

you know whether whether you view the glass

1:01:30

as half full or half empty you

1:01:32

are correct but there does seem to be

1:01:35

a relatively recent addiction

1:01:37

on focusing on the negative

1:01:40

all of the time

1:01:41

right just just focusing on the negative

1:01:43

focusing on the hopelessness are

1:01:46

kind of getting stuck in this doomsday

1:01:49

mentality and and i see this his

1:01:51

own people are across the across the political

1:01:53

aisle the doomsday narratives might be might

1:01:55

be slightly different but

1:01:57

either way it's kind of like well we're

1:02:00

we're all doomed the future is gonna be worse

1:02:02

than the present on and

1:02:04

we can do anything there some external

1:02:07

there's some external power whether it's it's climate

1:02:09

change or it's the globalist elites or

1:02:11

whatever and there's just you know we're

1:02:15

all gonna be screwed kind of thing and

1:02:17

i think that's think that's think that is

1:02:19

a dangerous notion in itself but

1:02:21

also i think there's this lack of perspective

1:02:24

on both a historical and and global

1:02:26

level i

1:02:28

think one of the biggest problems in the usa

1:02:31

is that i don't think

1:02:33

most americans know how good they have it would

1:02:35

say i think that actually leads to so

1:02:38

many problems because the usa is not

1:02:40

a perfect country

1:02:43

why

1:02:46

i mean when and where

1:02:49

where the is the place that so much better

1:02:52

there and the usa

1:02:54

and the twenty twenties right which other

1:02:56

country would you rather be in what what

1:02:58

other time period would you be and we're i'll be in nineteen

1:03:00

twenty two aged eighteen twenty two seventeen

1:03:03

twenty two i'm you

1:03:05

know or look here's a world

1:03:07

map point out the countries that

1:03:09

you'd you'd you'd prefer to live in so

1:03:12

you know and it only

1:03:14

people truly recognize that so

1:03:17

that that and grant and it leads to the uffizi

1:03:19

and gratitude as well because people

1:03:21

are always to stuck on the problems but they never think

1:03:24

about the progress it's been made

1:03:26

over the last few decades alone

1:03:28

they don't think of just how blessed and lucky

1:03:30

and fortunate they are there

1:03:33

have all of these things that billions of people

1:03:35

in the world do not have even just basic

1:03:37

things like a decent functioning roads

1:03:40

proper electricity running clean

1:03:43

water plumbing let alone

1:03:45

you know you go into the what are we

1:03:47

both knew my mind when i go to the us and when i go in

1:03:49

there like a supermarket and i look at

1:03:51

the okay the numbers of different types of milk

1:03:53

they have milk from things i didn't know you could get milk

1:03:56

rob right to have issues

1:03:59

like sixty different

1:04:02

types of milk out just like do like

1:04:04

you going to most places where you got the are why maybe

1:04:06

it's very two different maybe two different

1:04:08

time

1:04:09

the

1:04:10

by you know people will still find a way to complain

1:04:12

about

1:04:14

yeah i think that the the gratitude point

1:04:16

is so important and there's a lot of empirical

1:04:18

psychology research that says hey if you

1:04:21

want to be happy and life it helps a lot to

1:04:23

do some gratitude exercises right down

1:04:25

things you appreciate end

1:04:27

of every day

1:04:29

right down some highlights things

1:04:31

that you value and

1:04:33

whether it's sort of like

1:04:36

remembering these things and kind of format

1:04:38

of like prayer or just and kind

1:04:40

of secular like this , worth

1:04:42

remembering and and feeling grateful about

1:04:45

that's really valuable and

1:04:48

most people don't most people

1:04:50

com

1:04:52

yeah you appreciate america live

1:04:54

some other places you know i've lived in britain

1:04:56

germany

1:04:58

australia for different lengths of time

1:05:00

i've traveled lot of countries and

1:05:04

every country has problems but arm

1:05:08

it's very easy to take first swirls

1:05:10

lifestyles for granted if

1:05:13

you've never been anywhere else

1:05:15

absolutely

1:05:16

absolutely jeffrey man there's

1:05:18

so much that we can discuss can discuss we want to have

1:05:20

you back on the podcast in the future but

1:05:23

i wanted to keep this around

1:05:25

the length of most my episode so where

1:05:27

can people find you online

1:05:29

and follow

1:05:31

i have a website primal poly

1:05:33

dot com that has a lot of information

1:05:35

about my books and interviews and

1:05:37

all my scientific papers are

1:05:39

up there and bought a great resources

1:05:42

you can follow me on twitter as prime appalling and

1:05:46

saw you can read my books like the mating mind

1:05:49

spent mate virtue

1:05:51

signaling

1:05:52

where where did the where

1:05:54

did the term primal polycom from what's the source of

1:05:57

com

1:05:59

well how he is one of my favorite

1:06:03

kind of pre sexes because it

1:06:05

sort of

1:06:06

alludes to bunch of different things

1:06:08

polymorphism which is a term from biology

1:06:10

poly jannik which is like a way of

1:06:12

adding up gina fact that that

1:06:14

predict traits polyamory which

1:06:16

is kind of relationship style

1:06:21

i need a twitter handle that kind

1:06:23

of captures a little bit a science, he vibe

1:06:25

and , the primal is just

1:06:27

kind of an the blue stripe on

1:06:29

a, okay so it's

1:06:31

not the ideal twitter handle it's kind of confusing

1:06:33

to a lot of but it's kind of what i'm stuck

1:06:36

with it the moment i

1:06:37

was jeffrey miller, thank you so much for coming

1:06:39

on the show appreciate you my pleasure we

1:06:41

take our