0:01

Crime. Hello

0:11

everyone, welcome to another episode of

0:14

Real Time Crime. I'm your host, Leo Lamar.

0:16

My little social salutes we've got with us

0:19

today. Our friend. The

0:22

fact that I said friend and he's already laughing, I

0:24

take it back. I'm

0:26

laughing because you called him your little social sluths.

0:30

Social it was. It was a very

0:32

cruel and deville. Thank you. That's

0:35

that is my dream role to

0:37

play, Corrella. I think I've already got in the bag. But

0:39

anyway, you know, guys, it's

0:42

just a hundred one single men. Oh,

0:47

we just live action this thing. This

0:49

is actually the most accurate thing that I've ever heard.

0:51

So um a little update. Still in

0:54

Europe. I'm a can. I'm

0:56

in Can right now. I am I ever coming home

0:58

Can. By the way, just see you guys know that is a that

1:00

is a city that she doesn't mean she's in the can,

1:02

like coming to you from the bathroom. Would that be funny? Hey

1:05

guys, so I'm actually in jail. If

1:07

you could come and if everyone could just put together

1:09

like a little go fund me to get me out

1:12

the bail? Is that pretty high? What did

1:14

I do? It's a long story, but mostly

1:16

just a drunk tank okay, no, I'm so I'm in can

1:19

France's great. I'm here for the film festival

1:21

anyway, Um, Dmitri

1:25

you you just Dmitri heavy side

1:27

without heavy sighing. It's it's a it's

1:29

a dark time here right now. And you know what, I'm glad

1:31

that you're not here to you

1:34

know, not that you're not feeling it over there. But after

1:37

everything what happened, and we'll started in Buffalo,

1:40

you know, last week, but in Texas at

1:43

the elementary school, it's it's a it's

1:45

a difficult time to um, to

1:48

be here and to be jovial and too and to

1:50

try and to try and go on, especially as

1:52

a parent, it's a difficult time to deal with this stuff.

1:54

And and it's also and

1:57

immediately what we do best here

1:59

in this kind as we politicize everything where people

2:01

do and all of a sudden it's this and it's

2:03

that, and people come on and they have their statements

2:05

and and it's it's maddening because

2:08

you want people for a moment, you know, not

2:10

not glory. I'm so definitely not glorifying

2:13

these times. But after eleven there

2:15

was a little bit of a bond here when the pandemic. It's

2:17

a little bit of a bond here, The bond

2:19

of people coming together seems to it's

2:22

it's growing shorter and shorter, so

2:24

there's not even that recovery period where we all

2:26

feel like we're morning together, and that makes

2:28

it more difficult. I

2:31

am so deeply disturbed by

2:35

everything. All the notifications I've gotten

2:37

have been about gun violence, and

2:40

it's so deeply upsetting, and

2:44

I just think that our country is changing in a

2:46

way that feels I

2:49

mean, I've said this before, I'll say it again. You know,

2:51

l A is pretty much as liberal as you can get besides

2:53

New York in America. And

2:55

there used to be signs on the highway that would say

2:57

gun control now or band guns,

3:00

and now it's like story or gun safely,

3:03

and that's troubling. That just really shows you

3:05

the sign of the times. So

3:08

anyway, obviously what

3:10

we will be speaking about right now, we'll

3:12

just do one hot topic today, which is the Texas

3:15

school shooting, and then we're gonna

3:17

chat with Courtney Armstrong

3:19

and Stephanie Lydecker, who are

3:22

incredible hosts of the Pike Town massacre,

3:25

and Dmitri not

3:29

to um you know as much as I

3:31

love talking about my love life. I

3:35

think we can just hop

3:38

right to this today unless you unless you feel

3:40

it's necessary to get an update. Um

3:42

yeah, I'm always up for an update, but it maybe

3:44

it seems a little uh appropriate today.

3:47

Yeah, we'll save it for the next time. Just stay

3:50

with this guy until next time, so we can still talk about

3:52

it before we get it. Obviously, we're gonna

3:54

do the one hot topic about Texas, the elementary

3:56

school, and it is clearly, as

3:58

I'm sure you know, a very sent st of topics. So

4:00

we're letting you know that we will be

4:02

talking about it, and just to prepare you

4:04

that you know, it's it's never a comfortable

4:07

thing to talk about, but that's that's where we're headed

4:09

right now. Thank you, Dmitri. So

4:13

everyone has heard about this story, and if you

4:15

haven't yet, just turn on your TV.

4:17

This is happening right now. But

4:22

okay, UM,

4:25

this is a really tragic story, you guys. This is the Texas

4:27

school shooting that's all

4:30

happening in real time. Multiple

4:32

people are dead, including several children,

4:34

after an active shooter incident at rob Elementary

4:36

School in Uvaldi, Texas. Law

4:39

enforcement sources has confirmed

4:42

all of this and obviously we've seen it all

4:44

over the news, and

4:47

I think there are nineteen children dead now

4:49

unless there was a new update, I

4:52

don't know if anyone has that information to me

4:54

treat as far as I knew, Yeah,

4:57

that's the last I had heard. This is

4:59

a second deadliest school shooting

5:01

in American history, and

5:04

two patients were transferred to Seeing Antonio

5:06

for treatment, while third was pending

5:10

transfer the hospital set a forty

5:12

five year old who was also hospitalized after getting

5:14

grazed by a bullet um.

5:18

We don't know the status on their life at the moment.

5:21

And I

5:25

just apparently

5:28

this young man also

5:30

shot his grandmother before going

5:32

to the elementary school and

5:36

shot these children

5:39

and teachers. My

5:42

heart is broken. I mean, it's like, how

5:45

many times does need to happen for

5:47

anything to change? It's

5:49

already times. I'm

5:52

I'm baffled. I just don't get it. I

5:55

mean, it's like, even

5:57

if even if they armed teachers, right the whole

5:59

life good guy with a gun versus the bad

6:01

guy with the gun thing, It's like, then

6:03

you have to train teachers and guns. Then it's like

6:06

what happens if the student gets access to the guns

6:08

somehow? And how about it's like, having

6:10

more guns doesn't ever feel like the answer.

6:13

It doesn't. And then that's a responsibility

6:15

to put on the teachers that that that's not what

6:17

their job is. And by the way, that should not

6:19

be an excuse. That should not be like,

6:22

well, we can't do that because these same lawmakers

6:25

that are like you know that

6:27

are saying, oh, we should arm teachers. They're the

6:29

ones that if you look at their bios on social

6:31

media, right, they're the ones that are posting, oh,

6:33

you know, no one's taken our second amendum went away

6:35

from us. No one's gonna take our guns. Hey, ammunition

6:38

and guns are selling out faster than like they're bragging

6:40

about it, So don't tell me that

6:43

it's not a great I know what they say. They

6:45

say that the people that have these guns that

6:47

they're not but you're glorifying it, right, and you're

6:49

making a big deal out of it. So then that's

6:51

to eighteen year olds now that have gotten weapons

6:54

that they shouldn't have had because

6:56

they don't have to pass any kind of checks, or they get im

6:59

illegally or whatever. It is. The point is

7:01

you have to make it harder. Okay,

7:03

it's not just armed teachers. No, make

7:05

it harder. First. And

7:09

here's the other thing. So, just to update,

7:11

it's nineteen children and two adults. That's twenty

7:13

one people. My

7:15

other thought is, so the shooter is dead mhm,

7:19

and the police shot him.

7:22

I'm always I'm just

7:24

like, what is the motive? What?

7:28

What's what's going on? How is this

7:30

happening? And also it's like,

7:32

oh, so are we supposed to just amp up? Are

7:34

we supposed to have a professional level of security

7:37

and metal detectors and

7:39

and and like defencive

7:41

gates around elementary

7:43

schools and middle schools and high schools and movie

7:46

theaters and malls and like, at

7:48

what point is this? It's

7:51

like, how do we prevent these

7:54

sorts of issues?

7:57

How do we prevent gun violence? I mean,

7:59

it's like how much security

8:01

is secure enough? I

8:03

don't get it. Yeah, during the pandemic,

8:06

you know, h everyone kind of got into

8:08

the thing of good kids back in schools.

8:10

You know, their mental health isn't that well? You know

8:12

what, there's something about mental health about

8:14

going to school and not no no, if you're coming

8:17

home or if someone's gonna walk in and excuse

8:20

me and and and shoot you

8:23

and your classmates. I'm struggling with the story.

8:25

Obviously as a parent I have this is difficult for me.

8:28

Um. But you

8:30

know it's like I saw someone

8:33

I can't let this go. I saw someone on the news

8:35

yesterday and they you

8:37

know, everyone comes up with their little spin of their other

8:39

topics, and someone was like, you know, this

8:42

is also this is about you know, kids

8:44

being afraid to

8:46

to um to. What's

8:48

the I forget what the word was, but he's basically

8:50

like tattle. You know kids,

8:53

you know, if you see something you have to say something.

8:55

Hey, hey dude, go for yourself.

8:57

It's like, no, that's

8:59

that's not where you're gonna where you're gonna

9:01

direct this blame right now? Okay, because

9:04

number one, this was an eighteen year old kid and these were elementary

9:06

school students, so what ten, eleven

9:08

and younger? Right, So it's not like this was a classmate

9:11

that brought up knife to school and no one said anything.

9:13

So get your little propaganda bullshit

9:16

off the news right now. Okay, there's certain

9:18

things that we have to focus on, and you blaming

9:20

children who are some of them

9:22

no longer with us is not the angle that anybody

9:24

needs. And there's there's no one that should be given

9:26

a guy like that a microphone.

9:30

The children should never be blamed. No,

9:33

this is us, this is adults, This

9:35

is adults. This is I mean,

9:39

I'm I'm kind of speechless. And I know you're a

9:41

parent so that this is hitting you in a way

9:43

that I can't even imagine, But

9:46

I I just I

9:48

just don't understand.

9:51

This is just illogical to

9:53

me. How we don't have any sort

9:55

of banning of

9:57

guns, gun control in a me

10:00

in full way, And why is

10:02

it taking so long? It just doesn't make it's

10:04

nonsensical. And I think that is

10:07

the end of the story. You know, I

10:09

am how many more times,

10:12

how many more times? I just don't like.

10:14

This is the definition of an insanity.

10:17

I brought one, it

10:19

is, and and people normalizing it or

10:21

being like, well, just armed teachers, that's the only

10:23

way to go. It's not the only way to go. And

10:27

I have brought one of my kids this morning to uh

10:30

she had an overnight today,

10:33

which is you know, is

10:35

for me as a parent, it's a difficult time to grasp

10:38

that. But obviously you have to do what you have to

10:40

do. But as she's getting ready to get on the bus.

10:42

She was a little nervous in general, and not because we had

10:44

talked about this, but she was a nervous. She's

10:46

like, Dad, let's take a selfie. And

10:48

in my head, I'm like, like does

10:50

she know? Or two? I have all this swirling

10:52

around my head right now, and I'm like, so you get

10:55

that moment where like, let's take a selfie and then you

10:57

can't but help it nowadays and I'm like, you

11:00

know, like you look at this stuff. And there were parents

11:02

in Texas that maybe took a selfie before

11:05

school or maybe said I love you, or maybe said see

11:07

you later or whatever, and that was the last time they

11:09

got to do that with their children. And that is

11:11

not something that I

11:13

think about stuff like that anyway. Like that's just

11:16

the way that I'm wired. I think about. I

11:18

value life, right, I had some some instances

11:20

where I lost some family members when I was young, and so

11:22

I value my everyday life. But that

11:24

shouldn't be a normal thing for people to think about.

11:27

I'm going to the store. I'm going to think, yes, always

11:29

tell somebody that you love them, but it should not be is

11:31

this the last time I'm gonna see somebody? Because I'm

11:33

going to the store or because they're going

11:36

to in school. Sorry,

11:40

no, I think this is all

11:43

exactly how everyone is feeling, and

11:45

you're just vocalizing it. And um,

11:48

I'm

11:51

I I really feel at a loss of

11:53

words for this story. And I'm

11:55

grateful that you have such a strong

11:57

perspective on it, and I'm

12:00

also sorry that you have to have such a strong

12:02

perspective on it. I mean, this is completely

12:04

I can't imagine having children at

12:07

that school. And and the other thing is

12:09

that the children who live will never

12:11

be the same either. So all the

12:13

survivors are going to have survivors guilt,

12:15

and they're going to be afraid

12:17

of being indoors and buildings that they would

12:20

normally deem safe. And

12:23

you know that's this is a tragedy

12:25

that doesn't just end here. Yeah,

12:27

And it's like and sadly you can rattle

12:30

off the other people the other where those

12:32

other students and people are from Columbine,

12:34

Newtown, Parkland, Like, there's so many

12:36

schools that you can rattle off in your head, and

12:39

it's like, I

12:41

don't know what to do anymore. I mean, I

12:45

think this is a little bit of a touchy

12:47

hot topic for both of us. And

12:50

we're gonna just quickly cut to break

12:53

and have a breather, and

12:55

I suggest you all have a sip water,

12:58

take a break, come back to podcast,

13:01

and we've got some great guests coming

13:03

up. We love you very much and

13:06

our heart goes out to everyone

13:08

who's affected in this tragedy. We'll be right

13:10

back. Yeah,

13:23

oh my gosh, it's great to have you both. Thank

13:25

you so much for being here with us time

13:28

today. Thank you. We are big,

13:30

huge fans Dark Day though

13:33

I guess to be here just based on what's

13:35

happening in the world today. Yeah,

13:38

too much real time crime. I think

13:40

the unfortunate thing about our podcast

13:42

is that every time we think we're just gonna do some

13:45

you know, old cases and maybe a couple

13:47

of of of hilarious,

13:49

funny little crimes here and there, it's

13:51

always like, oh no, wait, another huge tragedy

13:54

just happened, which is also the point

13:56

of this podcast. Exactly no,

13:58

exactly know. We talked at that a lot, not

14:00

to jump in about you know, talking

14:03

about crimes, is that perpetuate crimes

14:06

or you know, what is the cross section?

14:08

And personally, I think it's really important

14:11

to talk about it. So what you guys, do

14:13

I think is incredibly valuable not

14:15

to get heady. Thank you, thank

14:18

you. I think, you know, I used to think that. I used to think,

14:20

you know, the more we publicize stuff, but then

14:22

I thought, you know what, I think people need to talk about

14:24

stuff otherwise you just keep it all inside. And

14:26

I don't think that talking about the crimes

14:28

is what you know, causes people

14:31

to commit them. I think I

14:33

think when you give someone that committed a crime a reality

14:35

show or something like that, then yes, maybe we're crossing

14:37

the line there. But I think he's talking about

14:39

the tender Swinler again. I am. That's

14:42

still irritating. I

14:44

just took people's money and everybody,

14:46

and then everybody's like, hold on, let's give

14:48

this guy a show. It's made off have a show yet. I

14:52

think you'd have a great reality show up next.

14:56

It's anyway,

14:58

I won't, I won't hijack, but

15:01

you know, no, no, please hijack away. That's

15:04

the whole point of this thing is hijack. Yeah,

15:06

literally, that's actually the alternate name for this podcast.

15:09

Well, it's real time hijack. As

15:11

you hijack please please, Stephanie. The well

15:14

we're gonna do is we're gonna keep interrupting you, so we're

15:16

gonna make the hijack difficult for you. No one just sits

15:18

there and I agrees to be hijacks. Go ahead. Now that's part

15:20

of the game, as we all continually hijack each

15:22

other. So I'm sorry, but this is not going

15:24

to be fun for anyone. We get it,

15:27

No, we really get it. But like to back up to

15:29

what you were just saying about talking about

15:31

crimes, I think it's the only way we know how to keep ourselves

15:33

safe is sort of knowing that

15:35

these hideous things do in facts happen,

15:37

and how we can, you know,

15:40

spot the boogeyman in the

15:42

room and hopefully prevent these

15:44

things from happening again. So that's it

15:46

from my soapbox. Yeah, no, I agree,

15:48

I think um even on social media. I'm in

15:51

life, I'm sarcasm,

15:54

but um, Somewhere along the way I used to

15:56

keep all stuff inside, and somewhere along the way I realized,

15:58

you know what, if I have a thought kind of

16:00

like, I'll write it out. And because I realized

16:02

that sometimes other people need to hear

16:04

it or need to or think, hey, I didn't think

16:06

of it that where or it's nice to know that someone else is

16:08

having these feelings too, or so I

16:11

think it's important. Well, it's also nice

16:13

to have an alternative perspective on an event

16:15

that you might not have heard before and gather

16:17

more insight and to change

16:20

your own perspective. Maybe not to

16:22

mention. If you meet somebody who

16:24

has been the victim of a crime or

16:26

has survived something as

16:29

hideous as some of the crimes that we talk

16:31

about, and they have the wherewithal

16:33

and the ability to come and sit down for an

16:36

interview and push on with

16:38

their lives and share their story. I

16:40

find it very inspiring. It really

16:42

puts things into perspective in terms of

16:45

what I was whining about yesterday.

16:47

You know, you wake up to what we've seen today, this level

16:50

of tragedy, and it's mind blowing,

16:53

and it just kind of reminds us all to you

16:55

know, get grateful and you know, be

16:57

aware. We've got the incredible,

17:00

beautiful, talented Courtney Armstrong

17:02

and Stephanie Lye Decker on

17:04

the podcast today. We are so grateful

17:06

to have you both here, and they're the

17:08

hosts of the Pike Town Massacre

17:11

podcast and it's available on all Apple

17:13

podcasts. They're already

17:16

far into their episodes. So if

17:18

you're someone who likes to binge, o ho, I

17:21

have a treat for you. Plan a road trip

17:23

baby. So you

17:25

both are unscripted TV producers

17:28

and now you host this podcast about

17:30

the terrifying Pike Town massacre

17:33

along with co host Jeff Shane, who's

17:35

not here. That's fine, We want to ask questions. But did

17:38

you kill him?

17:40

It sounds like sometimes sometimes Jeff is

17:42

a good nickname for him. Ha ha.

17:45

So the show tells the story of the horrific

17:48

family annihilation. On the

17:50

night of a and rural

17:52

pike Town, Ohio, eight members of the road and

17:54

family were all shot to death. Season

17:56

two of the Pike Town Massacre just began

17:59

and it starts with a band all

18:01

puns intended. One of the four suspects

18:03

in the massacre, who has been pleading his innocence for

18:06

years, changed his mind and

18:08

entered a guilty plea. That

18:10

would be like Amber heard turning around in court

18:13

right now and just being like, you know what I did? Ship

18:15

the bed

18:19

the dog? She done

18:21

that? Yes, she has? Is that there

18:23

we go? Depends who you ask. Yeah,

18:26

well, if we asked Johnny. So two years later in

18:29

their neighbors, the Wagoners were arrested and charged

18:31

with committing the largest massacre in Ohio's

18:34

history. Shocked by the arrest, the

18:36

ones close knit and religious community

18:38

remains divided and unable

18:41

to cope. Ladies,

18:43

Before we go more into the nitty gritty, is

18:45

there anything you want to share about the pod or

18:47

your experience or if you

18:49

want to just um talk about

18:52

Jeff since he's not here. Um,

18:57

Jeff, you this in spirit,

19:00

and we wish you were in person as well, um,

19:02

because as Stephanie said, he has a real I

19:05

know you said in person, but it sounded like

19:07

you said, I wish he was in prison as

19:09

well. Uh. Sometimes

19:14

one courtney, Um,

19:18

but yeah, I'll say what

19:20

what brought part of what brought us to

19:24

to this story and staying on the story for

19:26

so long is actually going and visiting

19:29

Piked in which Stephanie,

19:31

Jeff and I all went to Piked in Ohio,

19:34

UM several times and we got to knock

19:38

on doors and speak to people who

19:40

were integral to all sides

19:43

and and just to find out kind

19:46

of in wasn't in real time

19:48

exactly when the tragedy happened,

19:51

but it was in tragedy,

19:54

lingers and the effects. You

19:56

know, they lad there

19:59

forever, um,

20:01

and so I think that's part of what's kept

20:03

us is really the people who were involved.

20:07

I just

20:09

wanted to set up so the for those of

20:11

you that don't know, there were a family of eight,

20:14

right, were massacred execution style

20:16

in this town, in different homes, all

20:18

on the same day, all on the

20:20

same day. And initially reports

20:22

said that it was in fact execution

20:24

style, and they thought it was this assassin

20:28

who came in in the night and went to

20:30

four different locations. And we

20:32

now know that it was far from an execution.

20:34

It was a straight massacre. It was an overkill.

20:37

Four members of the same you know, eight members

20:39

of the same family, ranging

20:42

in age as young as sixteen

20:44

years old. We're all murdered. Some

20:46

of them were mothers holding their babies. And

20:48

to find out two years later, the

20:51

babies, thankfully we're all left alive

20:53

at the scene. Um tragic as even

20:55

that sounds for the life to come. But

20:58

find out two years later that a local, very

21:00

prominent family who was very close

21:03

to the victims were in fact

21:06

the killers. And um,

21:08

now we know that as fact, as one of them has

21:11

pled and you're talking about

21:13

a mother, a father, and two sons,

21:16

and the four of them we now know, as

21:18

a matter of fact, plotted

21:20

and planned for months and months

21:23

to essentially eradicate an

21:25

entire bloodline and did so pretty

21:27

successfully and almost got away

21:30

with it. And you know, the town

21:32

is a small town, like so many that we are

21:34

all from myself included, and imagine

21:37

knowing either somebody on the victim side

21:40

or someone on the accuse side. It

21:42

was a small town that was rocked. It's

21:44

considered the largest crime

21:46

investigation in Ohio's history.

21:49

So you don't go anywhere there, whether

21:51

you're at the Walmart or at the

21:53

you know, the local little shop. Who is

21:55

not affected they went to high school with the

21:58

accused, or they know into a

22:00

well one of the victims, so and

22:02

and not to mention. So this was in two thousand

22:04

sixteen, right, And then this family that

22:07

you're referring to, which I can't wrap my

22:09

head around. You know some parents

22:11

that then commit murders with

22:13

their kids like together, that's there's obviously

22:16

yes, no, I can't. But

22:19

so then it was two years right until

22:22

they were arrested. So you're talking about a close

22:24

knit community and amongst

22:27

this, that family was just there for two years

22:29

acting like, wow, I can't believe this happened. So

22:31

that's enough to re rattle you, right,

22:34

the whole communities rattled in two thousand sixteen.

22:36

Then two years later they found out that these people that they

22:38

were probably opening up to about this were

22:40

the ones that did it. And so then you shook again.

22:44

Yeah, and the the Wagner family,

22:46

who again is now all the four of them are

22:48

in prison. Um,

22:51

you know, they took to social media and

22:53

as Stephanie said, they were connected

22:56

to the Rodents, the victims family, and

22:58

so they were saying in interviews and

23:00

on their own posts, you know, we need

23:03

to find the monsters who did this, and

23:06

we have such love for the Rodents, and it's

23:08

it's really um diabolical

23:12

what they were doing, just the you

23:16

know, the level of fraud really they were

23:18

perpetrating. After the fact,

23:20

not to mention just one other detail that kind of

23:22

stucks with us. You know. Season three premieres

23:25

today, and we have a lot of access

23:27

to the accused families

23:30

who were under a gag order or frankly

23:32

were petrified and too scared to speak with us

23:35

for good reason, and this

23:37

looks like a regular family, right, So

23:39

Angela Wagner, who is the accused

23:42

mother. So there's a mother, her

23:44

husband, Billy Wagner, her eldest

23:46

son, George Wagner, and then a younger son,

23:48

Jake Wagner. The mom, now

23:52

we know now was plotting it.

23:54

She was on surveillance at Walmart

23:56

buying the equipment for silencers

23:59

and the shoes that were later found at the crime

24:01

scene. They had murder meetings,

24:03

sitting around the kitchen table, meeting

24:07

planning to do this. And at

24:10

the time they lived together. Can you imagine

24:12

this? So they got a car, they

24:14

got into a car allegedly, and

24:17

then went from one house, committed

24:19

a massacre, got back in a car, went

24:21

to another house, committed a massacre four

24:24

times, and then went home burd

24:26

and went about life. And that piece

24:29

that is just too much to kind of wrap your brain around,

24:31

because you'd like to think, no,

24:33

I under saying like this is why parents

24:36

should never live with their adult children. Good

24:39

point. You know, it's like it

24:41

drives people to the point of insanity just

24:43

having a murder. Yeah,

24:46

and they just decided to plot murders of other people.

24:48

I mean, this is just clearly mental illness,

24:50

but also you know the term

24:53

murder meeting. I just imagine them sitting around

24:55

the dinner table being like, oh, honey, past the

24:57

potatoes, and who should we kill first. It's like that's

25:00

out of a comedy. It almost doesn't even seem

25:02

real. They seem like fake people. And

25:04

the fact that when they found the bodies, they weren't

25:06

just shot multiple times, they were also bruised,

25:09

so you know that they were beaten before they

25:11

were shot. So it leads

25:14

to so many questions about the motive.

25:17

And I think that you know, they've said

25:19

it it's about custody, battle and

25:21

that sort of thing, But what do you think it really

25:24

is? Do you think that's it? This

25:27

is you have no idea the question

25:29

you just asked. By the way, you're

25:31

like, that's what the whole show

25:34

was about. Yeah, yeah, I'm

25:36

gonna give the I'm gonna give a

25:38

real short, black and white answer, which

25:40

is not the full scope um

25:44

allegedly because you know, this is all still

25:46

coming out in court. Um. It is

25:49

custody over a little

25:51

girl who was shared between the

25:53

youngest son on the killer side,

25:56

Jake Wagner and Hanname

25:58

Rodin and and they

26:01

were an unmarried couple who

26:03

had um by all accounts

26:06

fairly happily for years, split custody

26:08

and they lived the three of them as a little

26:11

unit, part time at

26:13

one family, part time at the other. Uh,

26:16

their romantic relationship ended.

26:19

And yeah, the thought that it was an

26:21

absolute obsession of

26:24

getting custody of this little girl

26:26

by the killer family, well, guess

26:28

what, you don't have custody ever anymore. So

26:31

nobody that's correct. Um

26:34

So anyway, that that is one simple

26:36

answer. However, Stephanie,

26:39

listen, Stephanie

26:43

just took her heels off, exactly,

26:46

she took her hoops out. She's ready to go. We are

26:48

like, listen, this is at one point went from

26:50

a who done it to a wide done it right?

26:53

So we were really looking into the why

26:55

how could there possibly be a killer family

26:58

who sticks to the same story for years?

27:01

Very difficult? And how could there

27:03

be a killer mom at the helm of this who's

27:05

really setting her kids out for potentially

27:08

death? Also, they could have all been killed

27:10

in this massacre. So, you know, season

27:13

three, that becomes part of our initial obsession.

27:17

But I think now we're seeing that, you know,

27:19

this is a really convenient narrative, and

27:21

you know, trials are now on the

27:23

horizon, so much of this will be disclosed.

27:26

But it seems as though custody, in my humble

27:28

opinion, allegedly is

27:31

the touch point that makes us all

27:33

categorize it and put it in a nice safe box

27:35

and say, okay, must have been over custody. That's

27:37

that. And now we're seeing that

27:39

there there may have been a much larger plot

27:42

and play. Um. There's been talking about

27:44

the cartel, and there's been talking about more nefarious

27:46

things happening in the in the greater pipes

27:49

in area. UM, and we have

27:51

access of really some scary information,

27:53

you know, on our podcast. We have to put everything through really

27:56

a very serious legal lens because

27:58

the trials are upcoming and some

28:01

of the participants are really participating

28:03

in a way that they haven't before. UM, So

28:06

we can't say anything that hasn't been appropriately

28:08

vetted. But it's

28:10

pretty the custody thing we now

28:13

know to be where I believe to be a

28:15

very small piece of a very scary puzzle.

28:17

Well I know, I mean that would make

28:19

sense because like I said, all right,

28:22

well you didn't you thought all this through, that you planned

28:24

you aplotted out this whole thing, but you didn't think that

28:27

this is for custody. And now nobody has the kid,

28:30

right, so so there has to

28:32

be more to it. But the the

28:34

the psychosis to have family planning

28:37

things, to go shopping at Walmart

28:39

for your murder weapons,

28:41

and it's insane. And by

28:43

the way, if you see the picture of Angela Wagner, this

28:45

mom, she just looks like

28:47

a regular person. She looks like anybody

28:49

we all could have grown up next to, you know. Isn't

28:52

know what they always say. They

28:54

always seems so nice. I mean, the prominent

28:56

family and then and then you people,

28:58

you don't have to be worried about. That's why they've

29:01

got nothing to lose, you know. But they're just they're

29:04

already putting it out there. It's the regular

29:06

people, you know that we're worried about their secrets.

29:09

Well, so I'm sorry, Dmitri, No I

29:11

hijacked you. No, no, no, no no, it's so. But

29:14

then to go like the way you painted

29:16

this out, Stephanie, is then they went and committed

29:19

a murder, then went to the next house. Never once

29:21

along that way did they have any remorse, like

29:23

you would think at some point when someone

29:25

goes and they kill someone, they go whay, wow,

29:28

okay. But to do it four

29:30

times and never shift. How

29:32

does nobody actually have some

29:35

moment of clarity midway

29:38

that they're just saying, no, let's not do this, Oh

29:40

my god, please no. Now we are hearing

29:42

um and learning pieces of that night

29:45

that does shape even what we're speaking about now.

29:47

I'm in a pretty profound way, um,

29:49

in a jaw dropping weight. We're on season three

29:52

right now. We also did a documentary about

29:54

the murders prior to this,

29:56

so it seems impossible

29:59

that you could speak about one story for that

30:01

long. And just when we think we're like, okay,

30:03

that's a wrap, the whole thing gets

30:05

all turned around and we're more confused,

30:08

probably this season than ever before because

30:10

as trials now happen. And by

30:12

the way, this Insullary family that was so close knit

30:15

and they all lived together and they can get murdered together

30:17

in that crazy killer mom well, now

30:19

they're eating each other little by little

30:21

and you know, turning on each other

30:24

for the first time in the tory tales

30:26

that we're hearing about them

30:28

leading up to this murder spree, essentially

30:31

in the days leaving after and also

30:34

you know they're getting allegedly threats behind bars

30:36

and are maybe potentially allegedly

30:39

I don't know how many times to say that, Um,

30:41

you know, maybe this is a convenient story to keep

30:44

them alive behind bars because

30:46

there's a bigger plot and play. But no matter how you slice

30:48

it, you know, three young mothers were

30:51

murdered holding their babies.

30:54

I mean, what kind of a sick o? What

30:57

can put that plan in place? To me? In

30:59

my had When you say it like that, it

31:02

makes me think because didn't they change

31:04

their story and come forward two years later and decide

31:06

that now they're going to change their plead

31:09

to being guilty. And I'm like, maybe you're right,

31:11

there is or a bigger plot at play

31:14

because maybe they felt safer behind

31:16

bars than they did an ounce and

31:19

even weirder at first when they were arrested.

31:21

That's when we got involved to do the documentary.

31:23

We went there immediately once arrests happened,

31:25

and we kind of set out to disprove that a killer

31:27

mom could exist or a killer family, which

31:30

you know there's not many of those, if any,

31:32

Uh, it's impossible, right, And

31:35

they really did plead their innocence and they were pretty

31:37

convincing. You know. Honestly, I think when we started

31:39

this me of everybody was like, I

31:42

kind of think that they could not have done it. No way,

31:44

it has to be something larger. Um.

31:47

And now to the five year anniversary.

31:49

Jake Wagner, the youngest son, he's the one

31:52

that pled and basically said, Okay,

31:54

I did some of this killing, and

31:57

I am going to now testify

31:59

against my mother, my brother, and

32:01

my father to get their death sentences

32:03

off the table, which is a pretty big difference.

32:07

UM. And now they're all

32:09

jumping in to either

32:11

spare their lives, some of them really

32:13

want to get free, um. And they

32:15

all their stories aren't really matching up, and

32:17

they have to, which

32:19

is you know, compelling in and of itself. There's going to be

32:22

a showdown in court where for the first

32:24

time they're seeing each other eye

32:26

to eye, and you know, the fate

32:29

of all four of them really does lie in the limbo

32:32

is Jake the father of the child of the

32:34

custody correct, he allegedly

32:36

found God in prison and

32:39

by the way, there's a whole religious element of this too,

32:41

which is fascinating. But apparently behind bars

32:43

he discovered God and

32:46

was born again and is now you know, purging

32:49

his conscience. I think I can say this, but Court,

32:51

we were at something, we were at crime Time

32:54

not that long ago, and we were speaking about it, and

32:56

you know, the people who were there had really

32:58

captivating interesting questions that we're

33:00

trying to sort of go through

33:02

on the podcast this season. And somebody

33:04

had come up to us and said, I have access

33:07

to Jake Wagner on a regular basis and he's

33:10

writing this manifesto behind bars,

33:12

and it kind of gave me chills. I don't know what that means.

33:15

Is a manifesto imply that he has more to say

33:17

and he's going to or he's

33:19

going to leave this manifesto behind and take

33:22

his life. I'm not suggesting that's

33:24

going to happen, but there's

33:26

clearly more happening behind closed doors,

33:29

and those doors are about to open. The

33:32

family feels very Ozark to me. It

33:34

is I think, you

33:37

know, like we like, well, at some point

33:39

even this season especially, I was like, this sounds like

33:41

too much like Ozark? Is

33:43

is that possible? But we

33:46

couldn't imagine it being

33:48

any weirder? And it is.

33:51

Yeah, it's at the and

33:54

yes, it said it's

33:57

very good visual to revoke. Now,

33:59

what was the what was the initial

34:01

thing that led I

34:03

guess the tipping point that led them to be suspects

34:05

to begin with, right,

34:08

because clearly two years passed, whether

34:10

they were suspects or not, something tipped

34:12

it where they're like, okay, now they were being accused. Go

34:18

go go, go get an hour. I mean

34:20

it was it was

34:22

a multitude of things. I mean, they the

34:25

investigation was so broad

34:28

and vast. I mean there were many

34:31

many national, federal and

34:34

local agencies just scouring.

34:37

So it was in doing the you

34:39

know, in doing the interviews and talking to people.

34:42

Listen, it's like if any if any wife is

34:44

dead, it's the husband. You look at the significant

34:46

other, right, And so I think part of it

34:49

just started from Okay, this is a very close

34:51

relationship, and then they start

34:53

peeling the onion back. And these

34:56

families were connected on that

34:58

wasn't their only connection. That was business.

35:00

They had generations

35:03

of the family knew each other. So

35:06

it's unclear exactly if there's thus

35:08

smoking gun aside from evidence

35:10

that came to be found. But in the initial

35:13

days, it was really just talking to

35:16

people and finding out and by the

35:18

way, these Wagner's,

35:20

they bought a vehicle for the purpose of murder.

35:22

We know that now as a matter of fact, after

35:24

the murders happened, they were like, it's too painful to

35:26

be here any longer, and they went to Alaska.

35:29

They basically liquidated all of their things, dipped

35:31

and went to Alaska for two years, right

35:34

in the like dead of night. Okay, so but that doesn't

35:36

make them guilty. Alright, fine, they're

35:38

there for two years. They come back to pike

35:40

him for reasons we still don't entirely

35:43

know. Allegedly because the eldest accused

35:46

father, his father was dying

35:49

and they came back to care for him, and soon there

35:51

after they were arrested. And

35:54

one other big quick note that I think was also fascinating

35:56

about this investigation and I promised to stop

35:58

talking, is after the

36:07

after the murders, this was again the largest

36:09

crime investigation in Ohio's history. It's a

36:11

small town, so you know, everyone's doing

36:13

their very best. There was four different

36:16

locations and they basically

36:18

moved all of these four homes, which

36:20

were you know, very nice trailer

36:23

homes. You know that they were able to move

36:25

into a different location in this like

36:27

trailers, No in a hangar

36:30

if you will to preserve evidence. And

36:32

look, we see this all the time. We were raised

36:34

in the House of Nancy Grace. Preserving

36:37

a crime scene investigation is

36:39

top priority at all costs, right, not

36:42

touching anything if you're going

36:44

to move four of these locations

36:46

where these murders happened, there's

36:49

so much room for error in that potentially,

36:52

and we always believed that that would be the cornerstone

36:54

for the Wagner's defense. Good luck

36:56

proving that that wasn't tampered with or misplaced

36:59

or or planted. Right,

37:01

you know that that seems like a narrative that everybody

37:03

could probably get on board with. We thought that we're

37:06

gonna be uh free to

37:08

be honest. In fact, we've always been there careful about

37:10

what we say. We don't want to Wagner coming

37:12

for us. So you know, it didn't seem

37:14

as though they were going to spend their lives in prison

37:16

in my purview, and

37:19

then Jake spoke up. So it's

37:21

that there's so many tentacles to

37:23

it at this point, but it is a really

37:25

fascinating investigation also,

37:27

and how that is now unfolding and the

37:30

Special prosecutor who's about to

37:32

go to trial is a really

37:34

magnanimous female prosecutor

37:37

who's like not letting it go and

37:40

is a superstud And you

37:42

know, we're really just bracing ourselves for the

37:44

information that we're we're all kind of dying to

37:46

know, I mean, getting

37:49

contaminated evidence

37:52

and tampering with evidence. And I

37:54

mean this is such a common theme. It happened in

37:56

the Amn and Knox case, it happened

37:59

in doomin a ram Z, and it happens

38:01

so frequently. And usually when things

38:04

are tampered with, these

38:06

are the biggest cases because

38:08

there are loose ties, so you find

38:10

people really pulling at strings to create

38:13

storylines that make sense because they either

38:15

want to force a narrative or they want to uh,

38:18

you know, force justice whatever

38:20

that looks like. And I

38:24

mean there are so many things that you were saying that

38:26

we're just like so thought provoking

38:28

and also terrifying, you

38:31

know, when you're like, we don't want to Wagner after

38:35

hotly, Yeah do they

38:37

so they know you, but I mean they're behind

38:39

bars. But there are other Wagners out

38:41

there well, and we know many of the Wagners,

38:44

to be honest, We've interviewed hundreds of people,

38:46

whether remotely or in person, collectively

38:49

Courtney, Jeff and myself and Chris Graves,

38:51

who also works on this with us. We've entered

38:53

so many people on all sides, and many

38:56

have choosen to be either anonymous or

38:58

have don't want super diticipate after what

39:01

they've told us. So I feel like and we can't

39:03

say anything unless it's

39:05

you know, so right, because it could potentially

39:08

have influence. But it

39:10

is one of those things that on the Wagner

39:12

side, the Acque side, you

39:14

know, they don't believe it either. You know,

39:16

people are heartbroken that their families,

39:19

who they really believed in and we're

39:21

rallying for and trying to get out of

39:23

prison, are now saying, oops,

39:26

I might not have been that honest from the jump, and I'm

39:28

so sorry to be such a great liar. And how to

39:30

four people become such great liars together?

39:33

And at the end of the day, not to lose sight of

39:35

these you know, beautiful road and family. They were very

39:37

beloved and lovable and they were a

39:39

fun, loving Gregarius family

39:41

who had so much ahead of them.

39:44

Um, it's so easy for them to get lost in the

39:46

story and you know, we always try

39:48

not to belabor that, but um,

39:50

it's one of those stories that has really

39:52

become a piece of our DNA, and we think

39:55

about it and talk about it to nauseam. So thank

39:57

you for living me. So no,

40:00

I'm gonna so, I'm gonna ask a question. It's a weird question.

40:02

And I tried to let it go in my head, but I haven't been able

40:04

to, so I just have to get it out. You

40:06

said that they bought a car to commit

40:08

the murders. What car did they buy for? What's what's

40:10

your murder vehicle? It's the truck. There's

40:14

always a truck, isn't that what Brian Laundry.

40:17

Isn't that the car that he Well

40:19

the other thing too, is I feel

40:21

like running is obvious guilt, you

40:25

know. I mean that happened

40:27

with Brian Laundry. He immediately dipped after

40:30

he murdered

40:32

Gabby Petito. And then even when

40:34

they went to Florida, I think it was too much for the parents,

40:36

so they went on a trip camping there, like

40:38

we just got to get out of here. You know. It's it's

40:40

constant running from

40:43

the truth and the pain.

40:45

And I mean, go

40:48

to Alaska, I mean, that's as far

40:50

as you can get, you know. So

40:53

their thought on it was that, you know, there's there's

40:55

speak to that at the time was that we're leaving

40:58

not as a dip to show

41:00

guilt, but rather there's still a three year

41:02

old daughter at the center of this who just lost her entire

41:05

poor family. And you know,

41:07

the town had had some rumors

41:09

about the Wagner's potentially being involved somebody

41:12

through a bottle or something at Angela Wagner,

41:14

and they thought, you know what, for the sanctity of

41:16

our beautiful three year old, we

41:18

want to be able to move on healthily with We're

41:21

gonna reevaluate and reimagine

41:23

our lives in Alaska, far far from

41:25

the police. And by way, did they

41:27

went to church every day and seemingly

41:30

kind of picked up and moved on And

41:32

maybe had they stayed there? So curious,

41:35

why would you possible? Why would they come back?

41:37

Yes? And by the way, Jake Wagner,

41:40

the don't get restarted. Jake

41:42

Wagner, the youngest son whose daughter

41:45

and the custody was at the center of this. Allegedly,

41:49

this guy goes to Alaska with his family

41:51

and meets another young girl meets another

41:53

young girl at church who he's basically

41:56

set up with through their pastor. And this young

41:58

girls like she he seemed lovely, can you

42:00

imagine? And then a

42:03

nice handsome single day they got married.

42:05

Yeah, they got married. Yes. Yes.

42:08

And now she's a big piece of this too. She's on the

42:10

witness list. We have recently

42:12

heard that the special prosecutor

42:14

had to create a new Social Security

42:17

number for her because she

42:19

had to be you know, gone

42:21

in the dead of night for her own safety.

42:23

Um. And you know, we've been really

42:26

actively hoping to you know, get

42:28

access to her and hear her voice. But again,

42:30

she was married into a killer family. Um,

42:33

you know, talk about it. I have the worst gut in the world

42:35

when it comes to Truelo. So

42:38

you know, can you imagine this young yeah?

42:42

You know so? Um yeah. The plot

42:44

pickins, you know where when we do go through

42:47

the Alaska piece of it in in lots

42:49

of detail this season. I mean it makes

42:51

me think, like, is Alaska that bad

42:53

that it would force you to come back and admit

42:56

guilt to a crime. Many

42:58

people love Alaska, including Jewel you

43:00

know, a Laska's a beautiful place too many,

43:03

Um, but it seems far away and very remote

43:05

and again forever going to church.

43:08

One of the oldest sons too. This has always haunted

43:10

me, the eldest son, George Wagner of

43:12

the accused. He has requested a

43:14

Bible in solitary confinement

43:17

in prison, solitary

43:20

consignment to get

43:22

ready. I'm starting to think that everyone that

43:24

goes to church isn't always good and

43:26

doesn't always have the best intentions in mind. Where did

43:28

you get that idea from Dmitri? Piece

43:30

a few things together from different things all

43:32

over the world. Interesting,

43:35

Well, you know, did they have children

43:37

together? Did

43:40

not know that? Behaving

43:43

as like a bit of a you know, new stepmother

43:46

to uh the

43:48

three year old at the time, and

43:50

you know thought she married into this like lovely

43:52

family, not realizing once you get married

43:54

into this family, it seems like the

43:57

the windows shut in, the doors shut,

43:59

and you're you're stuck in health captive.

44:01

Really, Mama Waggoners going to

44:04

Walmart at Yeah?

44:06

And they so just even before

44:08

all this, you know, you had mentioned

44:10

how they lived together as adults

44:13

and then also with any

44:15

women. I mean George Wagner, the oldest

44:17

one, he had a wife for a while, then she

44:20

too moved in and when

44:22

they were splitting custody with Hannah Rodin, so it

44:24

was really complete control. So not just

44:26

mom dad, the two sons. Any

44:29

woman they were seriously involved in was then

44:31

also brought in and

44:34

kept under surveiled.

44:36

They were surveiled, they were tracked,

44:39

they were and this goes, this goes back years.

44:41

It's it's unbelievable.

44:44

What

44:46

what is hers? What do you think her issue

44:49

is the

44:53

definite level of yeah, it's

44:55

I mean it's insane too, you know,

44:57

to try and put reason to something unreasonable

44:59

as I we struggle with that. So right,

45:02

you know, what is it? I It's

45:04

hard to know, except there is definitely

45:07

obsession um

45:09

protection of whether it's the bloodline

45:12

or what Angela Wagner the mother

45:14

deems as hers, which would be her boys

45:17

and anyone who impacts them.

45:19

So you

45:22

met, you got you meet one of the Wagner boys, who

45:25

are lovely by many accounts, we might add,

45:27

we've heard many stories this season seasoningly

45:29

so they were shy and they were loved. They

45:31

meet a nice girl. That nice girl comes into the mix

45:34

um and then as immediately cut

45:36

off from her family. If there's a child involved,

45:39

they get rid of the mom and

45:41

force custody to be given to

45:43

Angela Wagner at the killer mom, who's

45:46

really the grandmother now of like the said

45:48

three year old, for example, And then she starts

45:50

making them call her mom, so

45:52

they you know, Angela Wagner kill her mom was in

45:55

her son's girlfriends social media. She

45:57

was tracking all of them for

46:00

months and months and months. And

46:02

the one the second the

46:05

eldest son's now ex wife who

46:07

thankfully survived. Um, and

46:10

this did not happen. It's the youngest. I'm

46:12

making this very confusing. There's two

46:14

times now that Angela Wagner

46:17

killer Mom has forced custody issues

46:19

on both of her sons loved

46:21

ones in hopes of getting

46:24

rid of the women and keeping the kids for herself.

46:26

So the mom, the mom is the epicenter

46:28

of all this, and you think she's probably the one

46:30

that just from the inside

46:33

the house, step the whole family and

46:36

masterminded all this just to keep her little

46:38

empire. And she's the she's the

46:40

center of everybody. We thought that in episode

46:43

one, and now I think if you

46:45

asked me today and we're really

46:48

we're still mid stream on season three.

46:50

UM, I don't think

46:52

that's it anymore. Yeah.

46:55

Yeah,

46:58

damn your reality show producers. Yeah

47:00

wow, that's really good, you know, And now I'm

47:02

gonna go binge myself. I'm just I mean,

47:05

because it seems so clear and now it's so unclear.

47:08

Wow. Thank you so much. Thank you for that.

47:10

Yeah, I mean it's so interesting hearing about just

47:12

obsession. Well, you know the old adage,

47:14

obsession breeds content, and

47:18

you know, when when someone is

47:21

angry or furious or jealous

47:23

or any of those things,

47:26

these like crimes of passion, whether

47:28

they're sexual involved

47:30

or romantic or familial,

47:33

becomes really intense. And to

47:35

have such an entanglement where the entire family

47:38

is essentially it's like a it's like

47:40

a baby racket. I

47:43

mean, it is unfathomable.

47:45

Really. Can you imagine being a girl

47:48

in the in the Alaskan church and she's like,

47:50

oh, I met this really nice guy and maybe maybe

47:52

you find out someone has something in the past, and

47:54

then you're like, okay, well it was murdering. You're like,

47:56

oh, what happens? So someone fell down hit their head

47:58

and he was kind of blamed for it. No, it's or is that he and his whole

48:00

family allegedly massacred

48:03

of an entire family, Like, holy

48:06

crap, wait, do you think the pastor

48:08

feels really bad? He's like, oh no, I

48:11

have the worst judge of character. And I

48:14

set up a very nice Christian Alaskan

48:16

woman with an entire family of murderers.

48:19

You know, like, there's something we got gotta talk to that

48:21

pastor. He's really the problem here. How's

48:23

this sermon? The next Sunday, He's like, I'd like to

48:25

come clean on something I kind of regret.

48:27

Yeah. Yeah, He's like, who do I confess my sentence

48:30

too? Uh? Yeah,

48:32

I mean this is um

48:35

And you know, we we also make a podcast

48:37

called Crazy and Lovely. You know, really

48:39

every episode kind of does look at that intersection

48:41

between when something starts really

48:44

loving and seemingly normal on its nose

48:46

and then turns deadly. And unfortunately,

48:48

those stories are seemingly never ending,

48:50

right and you know we're seeing it in the news

48:52

right now. Um, why

48:57

why go to see

49:00

therapist, go talk to a family,

49:02

a friend, move something there?

49:04

There's so many other answers than what

49:06

we talk about every day, which is murder.

49:09

And I don't know that we'll ever fully

49:11

understand it, right, Courtney and I debate this today.

49:13

She's the cerebral, smart one of us

49:16

and is always saying, why do you

49:18

ask why? Why do you ask? Why you

49:20

cannot make sense of nonsensical people

49:23

or situations? And I sort

49:25

of have to believe that somewhere we can. And

49:27

you know, that's kind of why I

49:29

guess we're all on this right now, and why

49:31

crime is something that we're

49:34

also obsessed with. It's you know, we're

49:36

on a justice journey, right and we want

49:39

to be able to categorize it in our heads. And

49:42

this is just another example of one that's

49:44

really been hard to do. It's

49:47

that's that's the thing is it's something that

49:49

that we can't wrap our heads around. So

49:51

that's what intrigues you the most, right it

49:53

scares the shit out of you. And I think that's

49:55

why so many people are scared of death, because

49:58

they don't know the end. That's that's an answer that they don't

50:00

know. Right. But when these things

50:02

happen and you think, okay, well let's look into it, and

50:04

then you want the why because it's the

50:06

only way to make you feel better. Because if you don't

50:08

have the why, then anybody around

50:10

you can be one of these people. Right,

50:13

So then you feel your world dissolves an extremely

50:15

small and you feel and anything can

50:18

happen. And I think that's a scary point. So

50:20

we need that. Why we need well, what was the

50:22

one thing that really set this off? Why

50:24

did people not see they should have seen? So you

50:26

always want that reason. Yeah,

50:29

and Stephanie and Courtney.

50:31

Unfortunately we are out of time for today. I

50:33

feel like we could talk to you for hours

50:36

about this, and trust me, we've got questions.

50:38

Okay, we have questions, um

50:41

and and you really mind

50:44

me when you were like, oh no, it's not at

50:46

all what you think it was. So I'm

50:48

gonna binge, watch binge, watch binge,

50:51

listen the pot to the pod. I

50:53

have no brain cells laft type and in Europe for a month,

50:56

and I'm very excited to listen

50:58

to your podcast. And is there any are there final

51:00

thoughts you want to leave our listeners with? Don't

51:06

all jump in at once. I thought a hijacker,

51:10

I know, I know, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. It's because you

51:12

already hooked us with something. You're like, I know, I got to

51:14

come up with something that tops in the last thing.

51:18

You're like, we gave you not to be

51:20

hijackie, um court

51:22

go for it. Um. I have plenty to say.

51:25

UM No. I mean I

51:27

would say if um, you

51:30

know, for for anyone who listens to UM

51:34

piked In Massacre or Crazy and

51:36

Love or right here.

51:38

I think one thing that I just put out there

51:40

is to keep in mind that real people

51:43

are involved in all of these. That's

51:47

really good. Do

51:49

genuinely go out to the victims. And also, you

51:51

know, one thing about the piked In Massacre specifically

51:53

is we do get a lot of uh,

51:56

we get a lot of information from people

51:58

who tip us off to a lot of interesting

52:00

stuff when we take it very seriously, and

52:02

we really do find interesting

52:04

pieces of information because whether

52:06

it's a local or

52:09

a distant family member or a psychic

52:11

medium. You'd be shocked how many

52:14

listeners have reached out directly with

52:16

information. And it's really

52:18

made us pivot many times where

52:20

you know, we thought we locked an episode and

52:22

then we get some mail

52:25

from a listener and it completely

52:27

confuses us again and we go down that rabbit

52:30

hole, which ends up being accurate. So

52:33

I would just say anybody listening,

52:35

please do reach out and find us.

52:37

Um. You know, we do read and we do

52:39

take it seriously and we

52:42

um, we try to be mindful of just staying

52:44

out of the way of the story. And um,

52:47

yeah, our hearts go out to the Rodents and the Rodan family.

52:51

Thank you so much, Courtney and Stephanie.

52:53

I mean absolutely, our hearts go out

52:55

to the Rodan family. This is such a

52:58

sad tragedy. I mean, this is one

53:00

of the most tragic stories I've heard in a really

53:02

long time. I wish

53:04

actually that is true, but there are constantly

53:06

new tragedies every day in America

53:09

and around the world at this point. But

53:12

thank you so much for your work and

53:15

for your beautiful hearts and souls. And

53:17

you guys go listen to the Piketown massacre. I

53:19

mean, if you're not, I am,

53:21

and I need someone to talk to about it. Yeah,

53:24

everybody's there's three seasons. Check it out. And then

53:26

the trial starts for at least for for

53:28

George the fourth right that starts

53:31

in August. So maybe you guys can come back and when

53:33

things get underway, we can talk more about the about

53:35

the trial and or the verdict. And

53:37

thank you so much for having us in real time

53:39

crime. Yeah, we're mega fans,

53:42

so keep the fight going and thank

53:44

you for having us well,

53:58

Dmitri. I think that is

54:01

the conclusion of this episode of

54:06

I mean just sad after sad

54:08

after sad, So I'm

54:11

gonna go I mean just

54:14

also just totally bonkers

54:16

because you know, there's going to be a Netflix movie about

54:18

this family, and

54:21

I hate that I have to think that way, but I'm like, no, it's

54:23

obvious. It's like this is too

54:25

wild and out there and weird, and I

54:28

almost am so fascinated by these

54:30

bigger stories where there's always something larger

54:32

at play. We're like, wow, where

54:34

did this start to unravel? You know, going

54:37

from getting away with murder

54:39

to deciding that you want to plead guilty.

54:42

I gotta know everything. I gotta know,

54:44

like you could have gone away with this. We

54:46

need more information and if

54:48

you have information, you know what to do. Call

54:51

them live at eight six six crime.

54:54

That's eight six six to anyone.

54:56

Come, it's ani six to anyone

54:58

Time. That's eight six sext two on two seven

55:01

four or six three you

55:03

guys. Um sorry about that weird whisper,

55:06

Stay safe, we love you, don't commit

55:08

me crimes can night. Oh you

55:10

can also find us on the internet, you know, all the places,

55:13

Dmitri Pappas on Instagram

55:16

again like I said before, very funny Instagram

55:18

account, and Leo Lamar with

55:20

two hours at the end on Instagram, Twitter TikTok

55:23

has five hours, and my to dot

55:26

com. I'll be doing

55:28

some stand up in London, so if you're in town next

55:30

week, dm me. I got a lot of messages

55:32

when I was in London last weekend.

55:35

I did not have time to do stand up because it's there for a

55:37

hot twenty four hours. But after that very

55:42

hot, very hot, I mostly slept

55:44

a um. But I will be back next week.

55:47

I'll be doing some shows. Message

55:49

me and I can send you the information. Again.

55:51

We love you, I'll stay safe. Good night. It's

55:55

real soon, real

55:59

soon around the trade. I

56:01

mean, is it actually real time crime or solving

56:04

anything or is that just the thing we say it's a thing we

56:06

say, got it? Okay? See NAXT

56:08

week for more real time crime, only

56:10

on iHeart Radio