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Amazing. Amazing. KKC

1:28

Welcome back to another episode

1:30

of Reality Life of KKCI hope that you've

1:32

had a great week so far. have to tell

1:34

you I'm still obsessed with video footage

1:37

of real housewives of Salt Lake City

1:39

star, Jen Shah,

1:40

a Bravo con. and I've

1:42

seen video where she's dancing, I'm sure

1:44

most of you have as well. She's dancing

1:47

in a hotel suite And

1:50

Tamara Judge is in the background and

1:52

she's dancing around and you can hear

1:54

people chanting free Jen Shaw. Tamra

1:57

later appeared on several panels during Bravo

1:59

Khan and said that Jen was telling people

2:01

she's not going to jail and she's not guilty.

2:05

That is fascinating for this reason.

2:07

In December, she's facing sentencing.

2:09

In July of this year, she plead guilty

2:11

to conspiracy to commit wire fraud

2:14

during a surprise hearing. Her

2:16

sentencing, which was postponed until

2:18

December fifteenth, that can

2:20

result in up to four thirteen years

2:22

of prison and a restitution of

2:24

up to nine point five million

2:26

dollars if the judge follows the

2:29

plea agreement. Now,

2:31

I had to talk to Emily

2:33

D. Baker, who is a fantastic legal

2:35

source. She has a phenomenal YouTube

2:38

page, and she covers all of these cases.

2:40

I had to ask her, how would

2:42

this affect a

2:44

sentencing if the judge sees

2:46

and hears that she's telling people, she's

2:49

not in that guilty, and she's not going

2:51

to jail. So as you will hear,

2:53

Emily points out that the most interesting

2:55

part of this is the travel restrictions

2:57

because undoubtedly there are travel restrictions,

3:00

but perhaps she's only allowed

3:02

to travel if it has to do with work.

3:05

So what's most interesting is that

3:07

Andy Cohen was asked

3:09

about her not being included

3:11

in Bravo con during the weekend.

3:14

and he said that they had reached the end

3:16

of the engagement there after she had

3:18

plead guilty. So how

3:20

does this all fact her into her sentencing, you

3:23

will love to hear Emily's point of

3:25

view, and I think this is something that we're all

3:27

going to be following for weeks to come.

3:29

How that is gonna impact

3:31

her sentencing on December

3:32

fifteenth. Also,

3:34

in this episode, I interview my friend,

3:36

Sarah Edmonson. you will remember

3:38

her as the most brave

3:41

first member of Nexium's DOS

3:43

to come forward and to talk about the branding.

3:46

She was featured in a New York Times article

3:48

with a picture of her hip with a brand

3:51

on herself. So she was

3:53

one of many people that have come forward to talk

3:55

about the inner work teams of what was called

3:57

a self help group, but ultimately was

3:59

a cult run by Keith Reniere.

4:02

And in the first series

4:05

of the vowel. In part one,

4:07

you learn more about how the group

4:09

was started and Keith Renery. In

4:12

part two, we're gonna hear from Nancy

4:14

Salzman who is a

4:16

co creator, co founder of this

4:18

organization. I have been waiting

4:20

for months and months and months for the

4:22

opportunity to hear her position.

4:25

So in part two, it is set

4:27

against the backdrop of the federal trial

4:29

of the United States against Keith

4:31

Reineri. This offers a rare

4:33

view into his innermost circle,

4:35

including as I mentioned, Nancy

4:37

Salzman. It follows the

4:39

legal and emotional journeys of the group's

4:41

founders, supporters, and defectors,

4:44

including Sarah, as new

4:46

evidence and stunning revelations come

4:48

to light while federal prosecutors and

4:50

defense attorneys engaged in

4:52

a trial that really stole the national

4:54

spotlight. For someone

4:56

like me, I've been following this story

4:58

for years and years. I I often

5:00

joke that I'm a Nexium scholar and

5:03

I have been fascinated with the

5:05

inner workings of this group and

5:07

the brave testimony of those

5:09

that have left the group. So this

5:11

is five years after Keith Renieri's

5:13

arrest in Mexico, amid rumors

5:16

of a secret sex sorority within

5:18

this self help company called next them.

5:20

And this part two reveals the manifold

5:22

ways that Reneery in a

5:24

trusted inner circle of acolytes conspired

5:27

to induct women into a female

5:29

only sect called Doss. This

5:31

is a name derived from the Latin acronym

5:33

meaning master of obedient women.

5:36

This includes illuminating footage from

5:38

within Nexium and chilling

5:40

testimony from the trial. Part

5:42

two goes beyond the headlines to delve deeply

5:45

into the nature of psychological manipulation.

5:48

The series also hears from staunch

5:50

defenders of the work that he and Nancy

5:52

Salzmann spearheaded within their

5:54

executive success programs. If

5:57

you're somebody fascinated by cults,

5:58

this is

5:59

something to watch. There's so much

6:02

to unpack. So I know that you're gonna

6:04

enjoy it and that starts this week on HBO.

6:06

It will air every Monday.

6:09

There's

6:09

also a bunch of other stuff

6:11

that I think that you're gonna love this week.

6:14

So I want you to look out for season

6:16

three of love as blind on Netflix.

6:18

volume three of unsolved mystery on

6:20

Netflix, and this really fantastic

6:23

documentary called MamaS Boy.

6:25

It's on Tuesday, and it centers

6:27

around the upbringing of the Academy Award

6:29

winning screen screenwriter of milk,

6:31

Dustin Lance Black. He travels

6:33

back to the places where he grew up. and

6:36

explores his childhood roots, gay

6:38

identity, and close relationship with his

6:40

mother who overcame childhood

6:42

polio, abusive marriages, and

6:44

Mormon dogma. while becoming

6:46

his emotional rock and ultimately the

6:48

inspiration for his activism. It's

6:51

a really interesting personal story,

6:53

family story, and I know that you will love it

6:55

as well. So that's called Mama's Boy on

6:57

HBO. So make sure that you

6:59

put that and the vowel part two

7:02

As part of your Q this week, as

7:04

always you know, that you can go to kkc

7:06

dot substock dot com. To

7:08

get my list every week, it comes out

7:10

Monday of what to watch. each

7:12

week. Also, don't forget to get tickets

7:14

to my live show. I will be at the City

7:16

Winery in New York City on November twentieth.

7:18

and the Hollywood improv on December third

7:20

in Los Angeles. And

7:22

I'm very excited for this episode. So here

7:24

we go. Listen,

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8:35

As you

8:35

remember in episode four sixty three of

8:37

my podcast, I interviewed a New York post

8:39

reporter that wrote the expose on

8:41

Hillsong. And now, you can hear

8:43

even more information about Hillsong because there's

8:45

a new podcast called Hillsong

8:48

Omega Church Shattered. It's new

8:50

from Discovery Plus and TLC and is a

8:52

follow-up to the Discovery Plus series that was

8:54

released earlier this year. On the

8:56

podcast, filmmaker Don Johnstone and

8:58

former hillsong volunteer, Dalaluru's

9:00

go on an emotional investigative

9:02

journey to speak with more victims that have come

9:04

forward in the aftermath of the abuse.

9:06

So they're gonna expose damning new evidence

9:09

against the church that's come to light since the

9:11

documentary came out. You're gonna hear from

9:13

former and current hillsong members,

9:15

victims of hillsong abuse, whistleblowers,

9:17

journalists, and experts along with never

9:19

before

9:19

heard stories. So

9:21

this is a podcast for you. I know

9:23

I'm gonna listen to it as listen to

9:25

Hillsong a mega church shattered

9:27

wherever you get your

9:28

podcast.

9:31

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10:51

Emily

10:52

Baker, I've been dying to talk to

10:54

you after I witness video

10:56

footage of Jen Shot Dansied at

10:58

an after party and then heard

11:00

Tamara make a statement at Rabocon that

11:02

Jen had been going around telling everybody

11:04

that she was innocent. what do you

11:06

make of this and how will this

11:08

affect her sentencing? It's

11:10

absolutely wild. I saw

11:13

Tamar make statements like three or four times at

11:15

BravoCon. She got asked about it on every

11:17

beginning she was at after

11:19

Friday night because Friday night is when

11:21

that killer after party was after

11:23

Andy's Legends Ball that was a watch

11:25

what happens live filming. I

11:27

saw her say Jen Shaw said she wasn't going

11:29

to jail. that

11:31

everything was good. And

11:33

I was absolutely blown

11:35

away by that because the

11:37

prosecution has recommended in

11:40

her plea, it's not really a plea deal

11:42

because it's federal, but in her plea,

11:44

they've kept her maximum

11:47

that they're going to ask for at fourteen

11:49

years. That's

11:50

not a

11:51

little number. But I

11:54

will say to be to be totally fair,

11:56

there is no mandatory minimum

11:58

sentence. So is there a remote

12:01

outside chance that she could possibly in

12:03

some universe get probation,

12:05

legally it's

12:08

possible. Practically, I don't

12:10

know if that's possible just based on

12:12

all of the other defendants that have gone to

12:14

prison. And maybe that's why she's like, I'm

12:16

not going to jail. Maybe she's playing with

12:18

words and you're not going to jail. It's technically

12:20

federal prison. Maybe that's where we're at,

12:22

but I doubt it. Did

12:23

you witness her at all this weekend?

12:25

I did. I saw her, I actually

12:27

spoke with her. She was perfectly

12:29

pleasant and lovely. at the

12:32

after party, after

12:33

Andy's legend bar,

12:35

to be to be completely fair to her in

12:37

her prerelease conditions, it did not seem that she

12:39

was drinking at all. a lot

12:42

of the other housewives that

12:44

were there had clearly been drinking for

12:46

a long a long bit of the day.

12:48

So I was like, oh, that's interesting,

12:50

but was I did not see her drinking

12:52

literally at all. She seemed to be there to

12:54

have conversations and dance and have fun. There

12:56

were a number of people with her But

12:59

there weren't there wasn't a lot of

13:01

interaction with her and others that

13:03

weren't, like, on her team, and

13:05

then people who were not cast

13:07

members and not Braava Labs

13:10

in interacting with her. So it was

13:12

interesting to see somewhere from other franchises.

13:14

there was at the

13:16

time that I saw Jen Shaw there,

13:19

I believe Who

13:21

was still up there? Lisa Barlow was up

13:24

there? And at one point Meredith Marks was up

13:26

there. I did not see them interacting at all. Of course, I

13:28

didn't see everything. Andy Cohen

13:30

was kind of in the same area

13:32

where she was dancing. I did not see them interacting

13:34

at all. He was at the bar and kind of walked,

13:36

like, around to get back out into the

13:38

other area. Well, she was

13:40

there. I did not see them interacting at all.

13:42

But he was interacting with just

13:44

about every other person that he came

13:46

across. So that was an interesting thing to see

13:48

kind of people orbiting around each other.

13:51

When she came in, there was definitely

13:53

people were like, oh my god. I think

13:56

that she was not expected there.

13:58

And I think people were surprised

13:59

to see her. Howard Bauchner:

14:01

Now, Andy said that once

14:03

she plead guilty, the invitation of

14:05

Braavaocon was rescinded. However,

14:08

he is interested in doing a sit

14:10

down conversation with her. do

14:12

you see that happening? And do you think

14:14

that her council would be agreeable

14:16

to

14:16

something like that?

14:18

It I think it's gonna depend more on

14:20

how she feels than her attorneys at this point

14:23

because I wonder how frustrated she

14:25

is that she was not invited to

14:27

be here Everyone at the Salt

14:29

Lake City panel was asking kind

14:31

of where she was. The Housewives are

14:33

getting asked about her. She was trending on Twitter.

14:35

Her name was very much coming up during this

14:37

bravo con and she was here in New York.

14:39

I was surprised when Andy

14:42

basically said they had severed their ties

14:44

That was before the reunion was filmed, and

14:46

I have heard a lot of rumblings that

14:48

she is not invited to the reunion.

14:51

So I I'm wondering if he's hoping to have

14:53

us sit down with her that would kind of

14:55

fill in for that reunion conversation.

14:58

It's interesting because She's in

15:00

most of this season up

15:02

until the guilty plea I believe that was right at

15:04

the end of the filming of the season. So

15:06

she's not reunion, it will be very

15:08

interesting if he wants to sit down and do a special with

15:10

her. I don't know if she'll want to or if

15:12

she'll be frustrated by the whole thing because

15:14

her storyline is what's driving this season

15:17

truly. It's it's really where the focus

15:19

of interest is, and we saw that this weekend.

15:21

Almost every panel I was at that

15:23

had someone from Salt Lake City or Tamara

15:25

on it, people were asking about Gentile.

15:28

Do

15:28

you think her attorney

15:31

is frustrated that these stories are

15:33

coming out. And more importantly, that the

15:35

client would say, I'm in a

15:36

sense after

15:40

Spending time with the judge and the judge

15:42

making sure that she understood her charges.

15:45

I

15:45

would imagine it would be

15:47

difficult for any attorney when your clients are

15:49

gonna go do things. If I'm her attorney,

15:52

I'm most worried about

15:54

whatever her conditions were to travel here to

15:56

New York. She has

15:58

travel restrictions on her

16:00

release pending

16:02

sentencing. And she's allowed to travel

16:04

for work. She's allowed to travel to meet with

16:06

attorneys. And so I think

16:08

if I'm the AUSA's, in

16:10

this case, I'm looking at why she

16:12

got approval to travel. And if she said she was here

16:15

working, And then Andy Cohen put out a

16:17

statement saying she was not invited.

16:19

I think that might cause a bigger

16:21

problem than her saying no, I'm

16:23

maintaining my innocent e in essence even though

16:25

she pled guilty or no, I'm not going to to

16:27

jail. Because when she pledged, she

16:29

did take a factual plea, which

16:31

means she had to say yes, I

16:33

did this. Yes, I did that. Yes, I

16:35

did this. So I just

16:37

wonder when

16:39

she and Tamara spoke. I know that they

16:41

did Instagram live together

16:44

before Andy's Legends ball.

16:46

I also know Tamar was drinking

16:48

that evening and that was that

16:50

was clear, at least to me

16:52

in seeing interactions with her. So I I

16:54

wonder if things were lost in translation. So

16:56

I'm I'm hesitant to say

16:58

that things like what she said

17:00

to another housewife that's now being reported is gonna

17:02

be a problem. The biggest problem is

17:04

what she told the court or what

17:06

she told

17:07

pretrial services. about

17:09

why she was

17:11

traveling to New York.

17:12

So the sentencing is in

17:15

December? The

17:15

sentencing is in December.

17:18

It is it's always possible that things will get pushed back. That does

17:20

happen a lot in court. But

17:22

even if she sentenced in December, assuming that

17:24

the court date goes ahead,

17:26

it's oftentimes that people will get a

17:28

little bit of time to turn themselves in.

17:32

So we will see what the court does. That's

17:34

very common with why I call

17:36

her crime, but the sentencing

17:38

has already been pushed back. It was a

17:40

plea, so she did have time.

17:42

So it is possible if they sentenced her to

17:44

custody that she could do that

17:46

then, I'm sure that will be a conversation

17:48

between the AU SAs and her

17:50

attorneys. Like, hey, no, we're asking

17:52

for immediate or asking for her to immediately turn

17:54

herself in or not. I'm sure there will be a

17:56

conversation about that behind the scenes, before the

17:58

sentencing date.

17:59

So what is the next legal

18:01

story outside of Zhengzhou that

18:04

we

18:04

should be paying attention to in

18:06

the bravo

18:07

sphere? In the bravo

18:09

sphere, I don't know who's coming up

18:11

in the bravo spirit. I mean, the majority stuff

18:13

is not gonna stop or slow

18:16

down. The ox for the

18:18

earrings that were the topic of so much conversation

18:20

is coming up, but there's an appeal, but there's

18:22

no stay order on the earrings.

18:24

so stuff might actually get a little spicy with that as

18:26

that auction gets closer.

18:29

And other than that right

18:30

now, we're we're in

18:31

the Danny Masterson trial

18:34

and Harvey Weinstein trial. And

18:36

so not not real outsized, but that's

18:38

kind of where the focus of everyone's attention is

18:40

at the moment. and then a lot's going on in the Murdoch

18:42

case as well. So -- Mhmm. -- there's a lot of

18:44

more kind of traditional less

18:46

less pop culture law that's that's going

18:48

on, so I hope the housewives have a

18:50

quiet rest of their fall. And

18:52

we'll check back in with everyone

18:54

in January. indeed. Tell everybody where

18:56

they can watch your show on YouTube

18:58

and where they can find you on social media.

19:01

Absolutely. I am at the Emily D

19:03

Baker, all over social media. And

19:05

YouTube just introduced handles, so

19:07

you can just put in the Emily D Baker on

19:09

YouTube and find me. all

19:11

over talking about all of these things pop

19:13

culture law. Thank

19:14

you. You're

19:15

welcome. Good to talk to

19:17

you. Does

19:18

the season of giving and

19:20

the season of stressing shoppers

19:22

on this holiday for the

19:25

compressing save on little girls and

19:27

bathmarks are refreshing when your parents and

19:29

monsters aren't really much

19:31

anymore like your kid brother,

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20:32

Nexium was

20:35

once promoted as a system of seminars in

20:37

the field of human potential development.

20:39

It became infamous after its

20:41

Keith Romere,

20:43

was charged with and ultimately convicted

20:45

of racketeering activity,

20:47

including human trafficking,

20:49

sex offenses, and fraud. Former

20:51

members have all described Nexium as

20:53

a cult and Reniri as a

20:55

cult leader who exerted coercive control

20:57

over its members. He

21:00

was sentenced to one hundred and twenty years

21:02

imprisonment after the judge reviewed

21:04

twenty five victim impact

21:07

statements. Others in his inner circle also plead

21:09

guilty to various charges, including

21:11

Alison Mack, an actress who admitted

21:13

to a prominent role In

21:15

a of Nexium called Doss. The

21:17

group was placed into the national spotlight

21:19

when revelations that women and

21:21

Doss were physically branded came

21:24

to light. Reniere maintained

21:26

command and control over the Doss members

21:28

by collecting collateral, which

21:30

included highly damaging personal information

21:33

sexually explicit photos or videos, and the

21:35

rights to personal assets. And

21:37

he relied on in his inner circle members to

21:39

carry out his orders

21:40

and build the Doss pyramid

21:42

group. Sara

21:43

Edmonson was the first to come forward about

21:45

her branding and the group Doss in a New York

21:47

Times article. She went from a high

21:50

profile recruiter to a

21:52

whistleblower. Her husband, Nikki Ames,

21:54

was also one of the group's

21:56

whistle blowers. They are both champions

21:58

for those that have been abused

21:59

by cults. They are

22:01

both my friends, and I welcome back

22:04

Sarah and

22:04

ask Nikki to join me in this episode

22:06

as well. Part

22:08

one of the vowel relied heavily on

22:10

your participation, the

22:11

both of you, as well as Mark Vicente.

22:13

And then the second explores more

22:15

of Reneer's second in command, Nancy

22:18

Salzmann, who ultimately plead

22:20

guilty to racketeering conspiracy. It

22:22

also includes his defense attorney and

22:24

the prosecutor as well as

22:26

third party observers like the New York Post

22:28

reporter. My first question

22:30

is what you made of Mark

22:32

and Figlio's assertion that the branding was

22:34

a personal choice. I

22:37

mean, that was all posturing and

22:39

and legalese, I think, just

22:41

kind of what

22:43

he's

22:43

paid to do. You know? He has

22:45

to he has to either believe that

22:47

he has a case pretend

22:50

that he has a case. And I think it's

22:52

the latter. And I think he's a

22:54

good performer in in

22:57

showmanship. Kind of like we're talking about,

22:59

he's the snake oil salesman. He

23:01

has he has to convince that there's a case and

23:03

he gets paid to do that.

23:04

That's my take. I

23:06

think that anyone does not

23:09

understand course of control or

23:12

how these types of abuses of power

23:14

work might look at it and go, yeah, they're adults making

23:16

decisions. They don't understand many

23:19

compromises that happened along the way and

23:21

the slow indoctrination to

23:23

lead to that point where somebody would

23:25

agree to have a

23:27

brand on their pelvis. And

23:30

also one thing that he was missing

23:32

is that the

23:32

information was

23:32

withheld, but the symbol was

23:35

Keith's initials. So people

23:37

can choose to do something, but if

23:39

they're doing it under a false pretense or a lie, then it's

23:41

actually not consent. So he's just

23:43

full of shit. The first

23:45

episode begins with interviews with

23:47

members that are still act of Michelle

23:49

and Nikki Klein. What can you tell

23:51

me about those two women having

23:54

been in the group with them for a

23:56

period of time? I

23:58

don't really have a whole lot of comments about

23:59

them. I think what you're witnessing is

24:02

them going through their trauma and

24:04

pretending not to. And -- Mhmm. -- in a

24:06

lot of ways, it's In a

24:08

lot of ways, it's at least

24:10

respectful and compassion you can be to them

24:12

-- Mhmm. -- you see it.

24:15

hard. I don't like being on the end of, you

24:17

know, them making us the villain, but I

24:19

think the the expert that was

24:21

on last night said it best or

24:23

not. mad at you. They're mad their lives are falling apart.

24:26

Yep. And they're pretending they're not,

24:28

and then they're pretending to not be

24:30

pretending. And I kind

24:32

of have a disposition and just

24:34

kind of leave it alone because I think they need

24:36

to be left alone. I think the

24:38

best thing people can do

24:40

if they're actually sensitive to this kind of stuff is leave them

24:42

alone.

24:44

Mhmm. And I I kind of wanna take

24:46

that stance in this

24:48

whole thing. And I

24:49

think what I said about them is pretty much

24:51

still my stance is that I can't be the

24:53

one to say, hey, wake up.

24:56

He's not, he's the liar, he's the con

24:58

man. I'm still the enemy, so anything I

25:01

say is seen through that filter.

25:03

I say watching it. It was

25:05

a whole new level of sadness for me. It

25:08

was hard. It was really hard to

25:10

watch. Seeing Nikki, like,

25:12

hold his jacket up,

25:13

which I remember him wearing also

25:15

and that she feels so sad.

25:17

And then she's told herself that that was good

25:19

when I believe she was actually one of the people who

25:21

was abused the most. And from a very young age,

25:24

She

25:25

joined at the time when she was very vulnerable.

25:27

So

25:28

and Michelle, as well, she had just come out

25:30

of her

25:31

relationship. So being

25:34

so

25:34

young and being at a point in our life

25:37

where

25:37

someone could compromise her,

25:39

it was a recipe for

25:41

disaster.

25:41

in the the part that they show, she's

25:44

in a home with filled with boxes.

25:46

Is that the home that she owned

25:48

with Alison or was that

25:50

Keith's home? I'm actually not sure. Do you know

25:52

it? No. I've never seen

25:53

that home before. I mean,

25:54

I never you have Sarah and

25:56

I were completely peripheral

25:59

to

25:59

the inner circle that was in the

26:01

Knoxwoods area. And I was rarely

26:04

in Knoxwoods and whenever Or in

26:06

anybody's homes? Anyone's homes.

26:08

So And I didn't

26:10

care too. It wasn't it didn't seem like

26:12

it was anything. I didn't wanna be it

26:14

looked like I was in my co worker's house. I didn't

26:16

really wasn't my Knox Woods to me was

26:18

like

26:19

Whereas I was like, I like going to

26:21

people's homes and, you know, like, when someone invites me

26:23

over, like, give me a tour. I wanna see how they live.

26:25

And that was even with Lauren, I think I was only

26:28

in her home once

26:28

or twice. I don't even know Nikki

26:31

and Keith had a police together. I

26:32

don't think they did. I think he she was I

26:35

think that was her at his place cleaning --

26:36

Oh. -- I think. I don't

26:39

know. I worry

26:40

too that she's still afraid

26:43

to say truth of her relationship

26:45

with Alison and Keith because

26:47

she admitting that she was

26:49

with Keith would be admitting that she

26:52

was violating immigration

26:55

laws. Is that the same feeling that you would get?

26:57

I think so. I don't

26:58

know. I get I don't see. I don't I don't know.

27:00

I mean, I don't I don't I don't

27:02

know if it's been proven that. I think, Alison and

27:04

Mac has said that the marriage wasn't legitimate.

27:06

It was something that That's what I understood.

27:08

Yeah. In the trial. So Yeah.

27:10

She's juggling a lot of

27:13

narratives, I guess. I

27:15

or know don't know. It seem

27:17

heartbreaking because

27:18

that was heartbreaking. Everyone

27:20

has left and

27:22

she's

27:22

left behind and she's still

27:24

devoted to somebody who has apps lately

27:26

no loyalty to her. In your

27:29

experience watching so many other

27:31

members leave the group, does

27:33

each person have their own timeline of

27:36

grief and recovery? Is

27:38

that

27:40

I'm

27:41

just wondering how long I

27:43

mean, we could

27:43

only guess how long it will be before she

27:46

really has some sort of

27:48

realization or is brave enough to

27:50

walk away. For all of the

27:52

other members of Nexium,

27:54

has it taken them a certain amount of

27:56

time generally to to

27:59

walk away?

28:00

Well, we heard after the trial

28:03

from somebody

28:03

in the FBI, I don't remember who

28:06

now said, if people don't wake up, we waking

28:08

up or, like, you know, realize they'd

28:10

been conned after a

28:12

trial like that and with in the face of so

28:14

much evidence, then they possible. They never

28:17

will. You have to

28:19

really put blinders on and

28:21

double down, double down, double down, as

28:23

it appears that they all have. And

28:26

they'd have to have their own experience

28:30

of, for example, like, there were

28:32

people who left after us, green sashes

28:34

from Mexico, who

28:36

took them a year or a year and a half after

28:38

we left. And they thought we

28:39

were the enemy, and they believed in Keith. And then

28:42

they had their own experience of

28:44

keep flying essentially. Like, keep saying no, I

28:46

had nothing to do with this. These are the women. You

28:48

know, this is like, I can't even believe they

28:50

branded my initials, like, how horrific

28:53

And then there was the the affidavit that the

28:55

the government put out with

28:57

text messages with Keith and the and the women and

28:59

him instructed excuse me,

29:02

instructing him So then they're like, oh,

29:04

okay. He it has me to do this. And then they don't trust

29:06

him anymore and they wake up. Whereas

29:09

somebody, like, Claire

29:10

also saw that and decided

29:12

that it was planted evidence by

29:14

the FBI. Like, you can always

29:17

and go, okay, that's not true. It's it's all American

29:19

pain. It's all American pain. Heat is good. Heat is good.

29:21

Heat is good. So there comes a point

29:23

where it doesn't matter what evidence

29:25

is presented to you. If you believe Keith is good. In other

29:27

words, Keith is god. Keith is invaluable and

29:30

can do no wrong. Nothing can

29:33

penetrate that. And also, Nippie and I

29:35

have learned in our podcast and was

29:37

interviewing other people that these

29:39

leaders say that in air quotes know

29:41

how to put their victims in

29:43

such a place of humiliation?

29:45

Mhmm.

29:45

And

29:46

shame, like, what he had

29:48

planned for those women the day

29:50

that he was gonna get arrested, they all were down there in Mexico.

29:52

This wasn't in the dock. I don't know if it's gonna

29:54

come out, but for some sort

29:56

of

29:56

sex ceremony. Right. Some

29:59

Right.

29:59

So, like and and they that that's, like,

30:02

humiliating. You know, between. So

30:04

I think they have to go, no. It

30:06

was an act of love and I chose it and it

30:08

was from

30:08

my growth or whatever. So it's

30:11

at

30:11

this point, if they can't can't

30:13

watch it, we just watch it go, fuck.

30:15

then I don't know if they ever will. I hope they do.

30:18

Obviously, I hope they do. We're

30:19

we're all rooting for them

30:21

to get back their lives. And I think the way

30:24

it happens if it does happen,

30:26

the riffraff goes

30:28

away and, you know, maybe

30:30

they bump into someone and they have an opportunity for

30:32

a relationship or something like that. And

30:34

they recognize that for them to

30:37

stay integrated into the world or something they're gonna have to kind of renounce

30:39

this or they're gonna have to have something they can

30:41

go back to. Most of the people that

30:44

made the transition from

30:47

recognizing it was bad, had

30:49

something to go back to in their lives.

30:51

And

30:53

and it for

30:54

a majority of the people that are still

30:57

loyal, this is the thing that they've kind

30:59

of decided it's gonna be the

31:01

hell that they die on. until they recognize

31:03

that, you know, there's a family or there's a

31:05

loved one or something like that

31:07

that is a competing need and they can compare

31:09

it to Keith Renieri and his

31:11

vision versus you know, what

31:13

we have here. Fortunately for Sayers, we were

31:15

peripheral and it was an easier pivot

31:17

because we had family support

31:19

and, you know, Sarah

31:21

had more of a voice over career that we

31:23

could lean on for a little bit, and then we've been

31:25

able to kind of get on our feet and

31:27

start putting our life back together to point

31:29

we're we're no longer in the red and we're thriving

31:31

in another domain. Fortunately,

31:33

we had enough time left in our

31:35

in our life to go do that and we had

31:37

to kids to race. So we didn't really have a lot

31:39

of choices in terms of --

31:42

Mhmm. -- what we're gonna do to

31:44

get our lives back and and

31:46

not make this our narrative turn it

31:48

around and and start authoring our

31:50

own lives in our own way

31:52

and not be victims of

31:55

Keith Renering, and I've always said, you know,

31:57

this didn't happen. Us, we happened to Keith

31:59

Renering. Nikki

32:00

says, sex is not the focus of

32:02

anything

32:02

in chaos. people are so obsessed with

32:05

sex. It was just a walking

32:07

group. It was also a go for

32:09

coffee group. I just thought about you in

32:11

that moment. how

32:12

that must have made you feel. It's

32:14

it's such

32:14

a a clear diversion tactic. Yeah.

32:16

We drank coffee. Yeah. We went for walks. We

32:18

also ate sushi and went to Whole Foods,

32:21

ended yoga. Like, there's lots of things

32:22

we all did in our lives all the

32:25

time. We also e m ed each other and took

32:27

trainings and I

32:28

mean, she's gotta

32:29

see she's gotta seek to minimize the

32:32

abuse. because if she owns that

32:34

there is actual abuse going on, there's

32:36

actual victims as effective key. She's

32:38

gonna have to own her own abuse,

32:40

and that's really what

32:42

she's failed to do. And I think she

32:44

needs her own space and her own time to go

32:46

do that. That's the hard thing.

32:48

What is the hardest

32:48

part of the healing process?

32:51

Is it realizing that someone has

32:53

hurt you or the realization that

32:55

you hurt someone else?

32:57

less than I

32:57

hurt other people for

33:00

me and more

33:00

just reconciling my

33:03

delusion around what other people

33:05

saw And then recognizing

33:07

I was so wrong and being

33:09

so wrong and feeling so right

33:11

and arrogant about what I was doing and

33:13

thinking it was right. that was the heart.

33:15

He didn't buy. You know? And then there's parts of

33:18

it that weren't able that wasn't able to see it and

33:20

protect my wife, but those were things that kind of

33:22

reconciled because when

33:24

you're when you're in and you lied to, you know, and

33:26

you underestimated everyone's

33:28

capacity to lie to you. Mhmm. You are

33:30

a victim. and, you know, you

33:32

have to own that you're a victim? Also,

33:34

in

33:34

a framework where you're not allowed to be

33:36

a victim. Right. There there's

33:38

the first line is that there's no ultimate

33:41

victims. Mhmm. And

33:43

so for her, if for her to say how is

33:45

victimized goes against, like, the number

33:47

one tenant of the whole foundation of

33:50

Nexium. Karen

33:51

talks about her relationship

33:53

with Keith, an old footage. She

33:55

looks at him with the same all that Alison showed

33:57

in those Nexium training

33:59

videos. And

34:01

like we've mentioned before, they all seem

34:03

to join the group in a vulnerable place. How

34:05

did he use their vulnerability as

34:07

a weapon? I think that

34:09

Keith was an

34:11

expert

34:11

at seeing

34:14

how he could connect with somebody. Mhmm.

34:16

And and what they called

34:19

a Nexium report. And with

34:21

someone's in deep pain and especially, like, with a lot

34:24

of these women, like,

34:26

specifically Karen, also

34:28

Nikki having fathers that,

34:30

in Karen's case, had died. Nikki's was

34:32

had I'm not gonna get into it. This is not

34:34

my story to tell, but it was not there. And

34:37

we actually talk about this in our upcoming episode

34:40

of Dr. Romani who's a nurse is this

34:42

expert that

34:44

specifically if you are, like,

34:46

saying daddy issues instead of, like, too flippant,

34:48

but, like, he's coming in as

34:50

a man who's listening and is sensitive

34:53

and saying, I got you and I see you and I'm

34:55

here for you. But I

34:58

think generally the whole sort of lie the

35:00

scam of Nexium is that he's

35:02

offering this way of

35:04

evolving your life and being

35:06

whole and complete and having self love, but

35:08

there's such a focus on what they call

35:10

the inner efficiency, like that wound or that feel

35:12

is missing in them. And it's

35:14

focusing on it and exploiting it. So

35:16

he says he's trying to heal

35:21

you. But really, he's just, like, highlighting the wound. And then

35:23

thinking then those people think that the only

35:25

way to evolve themselves go

35:29

on this path of enlightenment is through him.

35:31

So it's creating a dependency

35:33

through a lie. And

35:36

this is kind of what all the personal development programs that

35:38

we've looked at in our podcast have come down

35:40

to you. They're saying, like, you're broken and we have

35:42

the tools to fix you.

35:44

And It's

35:45

just bullshit. Nancy

35:47

Salkman was trained as a

35:49

nurse and was the person who took

35:51

his philosophical ideas and turned them

35:53

into a curriculum. he went

35:56

by Vanguard. She went by

35:58

Prefect. You've spoken before about her

35:59

influence in your life in

36:01

your life. in

36:02

in some ways, it almost seems as

36:04

if you put her above him. What

36:07

exactly was Nancy's

36:08

expertise

36:10

what made her so different than Keith. Do you

36:13

mean for me personally? Mhmm.

36:14

Yeah. because

36:15

I think our relationships were

36:18

different, respectively.

36:19

I think, like, when I met Nancy

36:21

partly because of our Jewish culture background

36:24

and her reminding me of, like, my family,

36:26

I felt very close to her right away. I really

36:28

trusted her.

36:30

And I think that they saw in

36:33

me a, you know, that

36:35

I'm very social. I've got a

36:38

huge network. I'm very passionate about whatever I believe in and I like to

36:40

promote it, and they just saw dollar

36:42

signs with me. And they put a lot of

36:44

energy into me. again,

36:46

like like Keith did with the women, she did with

36:48

me and Lauren did with me, and a lot of

36:50

the hiring, so they made me feel very special.

36:52

They flew me out. for trainings

36:54

at a time when, like, I didn't have any money. They

36:57

gifted me staff that would allow me

36:59

to take trainings because I didn't have I didn't

37:01

have money when I started. And

37:03

so I think that I think that,

37:06

like, I just felt very taken care of. I

37:08

felt felt felt that I found

37:10

my tribe. you know, in my community and she was a very much and

37:12

my mom hates this, but like I called her my bonus

37:14

mom. Like, she was she was the mom

37:16

and and Lauren as well both of them helped me with

37:18

a lot

37:20

of emotional issues and yeah.

37:21

I trusted they trusted them both

37:24

implicitly.

37:25

that way Nancy seems

37:26

to be presented as a

37:28

woman who is having a crisis of

37:30

faith. Are you at a

37:32

point now where you can have

37:35

some empathy for her? or are

37:37

you awaiting the moment for her

37:39

to have total clarity on how she

37:41

was complicit in

37:43

this? I'm waiting for that moment,

37:44

so we'll we'll have to circle back

37:46

after episode six. Yeah. But, yeah, I

37:48

mean, generally, I have empathy for anyone. I

37:50

think nobody signed up for this, but she

37:53

also did some really horrific things, and I'm still

37:55

her and I'm not receiving apology from

37:57

her whereas with Laura, and I totally forgive

37:59

her

37:59

and I'm nothing but love in my heart for her.

38:02

Alright. Nancy's still got some

38:04

reconciling to do. My delineation

38:06

is is pretty clear. It's, you

38:08

know, I never, and Sarah,

38:10

I can speak prepared to. We never used our

38:12

psychology to go from

38:14

this person was our friend when they left,

38:16

before they

38:18

left too. what are we gonna

38:20

do to litigate and make this person's life miserable? That was never something Sarah and I participate in.

38:22

It was never anyone that we

38:24

knew was participating in. And

38:28

when you quit or you did anything that wasn't in

38:30

line with them, they went after you.

38:32

And I think that is

38:36

a certain indication of what's going on,

38:38

their psychology, about what's going on. I think

38:40

that's why they're in jail

38:42

because they actually went after people and

38:44

abuse people. that wasn't something

38:46

we did. Sure. We might have been like, oh, that sucks they

38:48

left or, oh, you know, we may have had a

38:50

common or two. Like, oh, they're not gonna work their issues

38:52

because that was the dogma of

38:54

the time. but they actually

38:56

used their psychology to go after us

38:58

and make our lives painful

39:00

and uncomfortable. And if they'd had it their

39:02

way, Sarah and I would be

39:04

in jail and they knew we had a

39:06

three year old kid at the time. They didn't care. So all that empathy and compassion that they flexed and

39:08

pretended they had went out the door

39:10

when it came to preserving

39:13

their way of life, their income, and

39:15

their company that was an abusive

39:18

regime. So for me,

39:20

Nancy

39:20

can fuck off. Right. She put

39:21

it bluntly. Well, she says in

39:23

it, well, Sarah went home and disenrolled

39:26

everybody. She enrolled and gave them refunds

39:28

out of our money. She didn't have a

39:30

right to do that. and then she

39:32

also said the sex cult was Keith's

39:34

thing. My company didn't need

39:36

to be destroyed.

39:38

Again,

39:38

fuck off. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I

39:40

mean, I mean, I can get into the nuance of all there,

39:42

but, like, that the mental gymnastics to keep

39:44

that shit going on in your

39:47

head. deserves jail time to me. Like, I'm

39:49

there's no there's no and it needs to be met

39:51

with this kind of firm

39:54

response, I think. That shit is

39:56

bullshit if you're saying stuff like that. And we all

39:58

went back and destroyed the company when we found out

40:00

when you were branding people's

40:02

crotches with your leader's initials. That shit needs to

40:04

be flushed down the toilet. It needs to be met with

40:06

a stern fist. I'm sorry.

40:08

Like, and if that sounds,

40:10

you know, firm or whatever, fine. I'm the guy. I'm the guy that

40:12

puts a stop to that shit because that shit's not

40:14

okay. And if that's the mental gymnastics she's

40:16

using 345

40:18

years out, in the mount

40:20

everest of evidence that's there, and then she needs to go

40:22

to jail and think about it. And I don't

40:24

think three years is enough. Is

40:26

that still her still

40:28

her tone? That's not okay. My wife was pinned down and brand, and I

40:30

have a problem with it. I

40:32

thought of you guys this

40:33

week because I ended up

40:36

getting scammed by someone

40:38

when I was trying to sell just a

40:40

piece

40:40

of furniture on Facebook. And it

40:42

was within forty five minutes and it was

40:44

two hundred dollars. but it and it may

40:46

seem small. But I think we

40:48

all can think of moments in

40:50

our lives where we were easily compromised.

40:53

I

40:53

was in the thick of a day

40:55

with kids running around, and I looked back

40:57

in hindsight and thought, I I

40:59

was so stupid So

41:02

what is your message to anybody

41:04

who has been in a

41:06

member of a group or have

41:08

been scammed by someone about walking

41:11

away from something without shame, healing oneself,

41:14

and using that experience to

41:16

protect

41:16

others. Well,

41:18

first of all,

41:19

if if your instincts are telling

41:22

you not to do

41:24

it, listen to it until that your

41:26

instincts are

41:28

are in line with something that seems

41:30

positive to you. In your

41:32

case, you know, I think that's

41:35

just gonna happen in life and you get a you have to chalk

41:37

that up to learning lesson or or

41:39

or wisdom. I

41:42

mean, you can live you can live your life where, you know, you're always gonna be

41:44

secept I mean, it's septic

41:48

skeptical. You can live it in in that

41:50

way and

41:51

that's limited way to to do it. You know, I

41:54

I don't think it's affected

41:56

my trust. More I'm

41:58

always gonna trust. I'm just gonna trust

42:00

wiser now. And

42:02

oftentimes, it takes lessons for you

42:04

to do that because there were people telling me don't do

42:06

this throughout the whole thing or my

42:09

brother or my like, what is that? I

42:11

just didn't listen. Mhmm. So, you know, I had

42:13

to go I had to go phase first in this

42:15

lesson and learn the hard way and it

42:17

and it cost me. caused me really valuable

42:19

years in my life, but I think now I'm in a

42:21

position, Sarah and I are in a

42:23

position where the

42:26

lessons are seared into my psychology and I can turn it into some

42:28

sort of wisdom.

42:32

I think that's gonna happen

42:34

in life. And, Sarah,

42:36

just an update

42:38

you have made peace

42:41

with Lauren Saughman. do you feel like there's ever gonna be a point

42:43

where you can have a relationship with her

42:46

again? I'd love to. I mean,

42:47

that's great. Yeah. I don't actually

42:49

think we'll be

42:51

you know, best friends. We we live in

42:53

separate cities, but I'd love to be able to have,

42:55

you know, be in touch with her and and know

42:57

that we've gone through this crazy

42:59

thing together and I don't

43:01

have that

43:02

with Nancy. Like, we'll take

43:04

a lover, trust her again. I think

43:06

she's well, I don't know. We'll see

43:08

what happens at the end of this season. But, I mean,

43:10

I've heard that she's that she

43:12

understands her culpability,

43:13

but currently after just

43:16

watching one,

43:18

After

43:18

she was sentenced, she was still coaching people for five or ten grand

43:21

a month. Wow. And she needs to

43:22

go have her head

43:23

checked. Lauren, on the

43:26

other hand, I'll always have a place

43:28

for her in my heart. I mean, we were really

43:30

close at one point. I I don't think she this is

43:32

anything that she signed up for. I think she

43:34

got abused the people that were

43:36

closest to Well, ity that was stolen

43:38

from so many women.

43:40

That

43:40

makes me correct. That to me is

43:42

the part that I can't get past,

43:44

and I just I can't forgive

43:46

someone for that. No. And we

43:49

found out the amount of

43:51

abortions that that we launched. that's

43:53

absolutely, like like, lot of

43:56

-- Cousins. -- two to three

43:58

each.

43:58

unbelievable Unbelievable. Look,

44:00

it's hard for me to relate.

44:02

I don't have that, but I

44:05

can only imagine, like, look, that's a

44:07

dream that was taken away, not

44:09

by your choice.

44:12

on

44:13

Wednesday. Well, tell

44:14

everybody where they can listen to your

44:17

podcast, which is excellent. I'm telling you.

44:19

I always if I'm asked top five

44:21

podcast lessons to listen to. This is one of the

44:23

top five. Well, thank you

44:24

very much. You guys do egg

44:25

on her. excellent work. I

44:28

want everyone to listen to your show, and then I want

44:30

you to tell everybody where they can find

44:32

you. Thank you. We're

44:33

a little bit salty. and

44:35

the website's a little bit salty dot com. We

44:37

are on Instagram. Same name. We just started a

44:40

Patreon with lots of crazy

44:42

fun bonuses. and

44:45

including livestream, wrap

44:46

up aftermath parties after -- Perfect.

44:49

-- of that, which is a really bad event. It

44:51

was fun last night. We did win last night.

44:53

line. Yeah. Yeah. We went to bed super late, but

44:55

-- Yeah.

44:56

-- salivied. And hashtag,

44:58

I got out for those of you who

45:00

are listening, who are getting out of being

45:03

abusive or coercive or cultish. And what

45:05

else then? I think

45:07

she got it.

45:08

my book. don't people

45:10

wanna hear the whole story from my perspective.

45:12

Mhmm. I narrated the Audible and it's

45:14

on sale right now on Kindle for, like,

45:16

three dollars. It's so cheap.

45:18

And

45:18

where can we find you on social media? A little

45:21

bit salty on Instagram, a

45:22

little bit salty on Twitter,

45:24

which is a little bit sparse.

45:28

Instagram. And and me personally at Sarah Edmonson and maybe is

45:30

at Anthony Ames. Anthony

45:31

Ames eleven

45:34

on Instagram. on instagram Thank

45:36

you guys so

45:38

much. Thanks

45:39

for

45:39

having us. We adore you.

45:41

Amazing. Kate

45:44

I wanna thank my fantastic

45:46

guests, Emily

45:47

D. Baker, and Sarah Edmonson, and

45:49

remind you to click subscribe and leave

45:51

a five star

45:54

review. please jump in the Facebook group. It's called Life

45:56

with KKC, and we can talk about this

45:58

episode and others and what you're

45:59

watching and listening to all

46:02

week long.

46:04

You can follow me on Twitter at Ad Kate KC.

46:06

I tweet about shows and during shows all week long, including

46:10

tidbits about the screeners that I'm

46:12

getting. I access to

46:14

that I watch before everybody else so you

46:16

know what to look out for. You can find me

46:18

on TikTok at its KKC

46:20

You can find me on cameo at KKC

46:23

and Patreon for bonus episodes,

46:25

which you do not wanna miss out on.

46:27

So it's great behind the scenes stories

46:29

of the show. what I'm watching and also a little bit

46:31

more into what's going on in my personal life.

46:34

So you can go to Patreon, PATRE0N

46:37

dot com backslash K

46:40

KC. As always, I'm hoping you have a fantastic week

46:42

and I cannot wait to circle

46:45

back

46:45

with you on Friday.

46:58

The

47:04

kick

47:06

is on the way and

47:07

in his court bills him wanna

47:10

wanna come back. I

47:10

know it is like to make a

47:12

comeback. One of the great comeback in history.

47:14

In twenty seventeen, I was a linebacker for the

47:16

Pittsburgh Steelers, where my whole life was

47:18

changed in an instant. Chase here,

47:21

and then a lot backers is not getting

47:23

up. I don't think anybody has seen his legs move since

47:25

they hit. They said I'll be paralyzed for the rest

47:27

of my life, that I'll

47:29

never walk again. but I didn't

47:31

give up. I understand that that was just

47:34

the beginning of my comeback.

47:36

From wondering, this is don't call it a

47:38

comeback. Don't cut it come back.

47:40

Hosted by me, former pro bowl

47:42

quarterbacker Ryan Shazir. And me

47:44

zero time pro bowler Dave

47:46

Damochen. In each episode, we'll look

47:48

at the and out moments that led to the magical ones. We'll

47:50

dive deep into what makes each story more

47:52

incredible than the last. So

47:54

follow, don't call it a comeback

47:56

on Amazon Music or wherever you

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