0:03

Now really.

0:06

Really now

0:09

really hello, and welcome to really know really with Jason

0:11

Alexander and Peter Tilden, who asked, isn't

0:13

it really time you subscribe to our show time?

0:16

As in TikTok and amazingly. On

0:18

this episode, we discuss TikTok,

0:20

the video hosting platform owned by the Chinese

0:22

company Fight Dance, and whether or not it should

0:24

be banned in the United States, as many in

0:26

Congress are trying to do.

0:28

We're joined by.

0:28

One of the foremost experts on the topic.

0:30

Bruce Schneier.

0:31

We'll discuss how spying, manipulation, and

0:34

misinformation are at the heart of the

0:36

to ban or not to ban issue, and whether

0:38

TikTok is really any different from meta

0:40

Google or x.

0:41

We'll also cover.

0:42

How surveillance as a business model is actually

0:44

one hundred percent legal, how social

0:46

media's ability to manipulate you is

0:49

much greater than you think, why data

0:51

privacy is a national security issue

0:53

that isn't treated like one, and lastly,

0:56

cougar hemorrhoids.

0:57

You heard me, folks, cougar hemorrhoids.

1:00

Really, no, really, here's

1:02

Jason and Peter.

1:03

An This episode

1:05

is about TikTok, because which

1:07

I know nothing about it. I saw that the majority

1:10

of Americans state TikTok is a threat to national

1:12

security. And then you know me, I read a lot in prep and

1:14

then there's articles that say.

1:15

Oh, why that makes me laugh. TikTok

1:18

is the threat that security. Yeah, and then

1:20

I read articles to say it's not. And

1:22

then meanwhile, India has banned it two different

1:24

times. They have the chairman of.

1:26

TikTok who just testified the congressional

1:29

hero are observation the congresional hero.

1:32

First of all, you have congress

1:34

people who are interviewing who

1:37

are borderline to seased and

1:41

like they're a step away. Their families have already

1:43

made plans. They're that old, they've been there that long.

1:45

Yeah, they have no idea about social media, none,

1:47

not none. So this guy's there. You do the line

1:50

of questioning that we love the most about the

1:52

chairman of TikTok testify,

1:56

But.

1:57

Miss chairman, are you a member of the Chinese Communist

1:59

Party?

2:00

No, I'm from Singapore.

2:02

But are you a member?

2:03

Are you now or have you?

2:05

Where? And where do you currently

2:07

reside?

2:08

And if i'm if I'm the CEO of

2:10

TikTok, I'm looking

2:12

at him and here's the bubble that are over

2:14

my head. You knew

2:17

I was coming, right, You have staff, couldn't

2:19

google me? Yeah? The other question, this is why

2:21

we wanted an expert on. This guy is a big time expert

2:23

coming on. So they're worried

2:25

the TikTok's going to take our information. Can't

2:28

TikTok just call Facebook and say you got it?

2:30

Already got it?

2:32

And I'm going to ask our guy,

2:34

Brushneier. But now

2:36

I'm not on TikTok, but I am on Instagram.

2:39

I'm on Instagram and our show is on all the platforms.

2:42

When we created an account for the show, what

2:45

the information did we have to surrender to

2:47

them? What did they know that that the Chinese

2:49

government is going to feast on that?

2:51

What? What? What did I give up? Can I tell you I put

2:53

in my social Security number? Did I give

2:56

them my my children's stock?

2:58

What?

2:58

What did I give them?

2:59

That is a sycle? You're full of it, Because

3:01

let's get our expert on Bush Schneier,

3:04

who is called a security guru. This guy

3:06

is testified in front of Congress. He's

3:08

written tons of articles. He can tell us the

3:11

really not really we're looking for today? Really if

3:13

it's so dangerous, it's so horrible,

3:16

why am I reading articles it says it's not dangerous,

3:18

not horrible.

3:19

Is TikTok dangerous or not

3:21

really nice?

3:22

Tell us already we want to really

3:26

already, don't yanks around. Bruce Schneier

3:28

has joined us. He is a

3:30

security expert. He's written multitude

3:32

of books. He's He's appeared in front of Congress

3:34

about hacking, about tech. He's

3:37

a fellow at the Brickman Klein Center

3:39

for Internet Society at Harvard University.

3:41

Lecture Harvard who

3:43

my kid went to the yel so you know who

3:46

I'll go.

3:46

I'll give a who to Harvard, even though yeah.

3:49

You don't know it's another So,

3:52

mister Schneier, we want to have you on

3:54

because this TikTok thing is

3:57

confusing. You. Hear that most Americans

3:59

think that it is an evil, horrible

4:01

thing. I know that the company administration

4:04

tried to ban it but couldn't. So welcome

4:07

to the show. And what do we need

4:09

to know about? What do we need to know about

4:11

TikTok? That will clear

4:14

up this question for the people listening.

4:17

Probably not going to clear it up, but we could certainly

4:20

talk about it. Okay, so let's

4:22

start generally, all

4:24

of these social media companies make

4:27

their money spying on you. TikTok,

4:31

Facebook, Twitter, Instagram,

4:36

every last one of them. Right,

4:38

they spy on you, They know a lot

4:40

about you, and they try tonipilate

4:43

you. Right, they try to sell you stuff. That's

4:45

their business model. So in

4:47

that way, TikTok is no different

4:50

than anybody else. On

4:52

the other hand, TikTok is

4:54

owned by the Chinese, which

4:57

makes it different. Is

4:59

a threat national security? I

5:02

don't know is Facebook trans national

5:04

security? Is there a difference

5:06

that matters? Maybe

5:10

it's actually complicated.

5:12

But what do they Here's

5:15

the thing that Peter don't know.

5:15

We're talking about, what do they know about

5:18

me?

5:18

Like, I'm not on TikTok, but

5:20

when I when I sign up for social media,

5:24

I have to give them an email address.

5:25

I have to give them very little information about

5:27

me.

5:28

But okay, Google, Google, Google

5:30

knows what kind of porn you like. Okay,

5:33

that's how you search for it, right. Google

5:35

knows everything you hope, everything you

5:37

fear, everything you searched. And these things

5:39

are very intimate. You

5:42

got a Google phart knows where you are at all times,

5:44

knows who you're with, because you've all got a phone.

5:47

These are the

5:49

amount of information about us. Facebook

5:52

famously knows your relations before you announce

5:54

it. They knows if you're voted, know who

5:56

you voted for, They know your sexual

5:58

orientation on the things

6:01

you do and post. These are very

6:03

intimate portraits of us through

6:05

our actions and tiktik, they

6:08

know a lot about us, and

6:11

the amount is kind of staggering. Those are a

6:13

fortunate consumer ports she's a couple of weeks ago,

6:16

and all the information Facebook buys

6:18

from other companies to compile

6:21

the dossiers. Assume TikTok

6:23

is the same thing. They all do this and

6:25

the Internet is built on spying.

6:28

This is the most effective surveillance device you've

6:30

ever seen.

6:32

So are we concerned about

6:35

let's say that it's a Chinese government is

6:38

in fact spying on this

6:40

in some way? Are we concerned about

6:42

the metadata that we are giving

6:44

to these people, or are we concerned literally that

6:48

if they want to manipulate Jason Alexander,

6:50

They're going to go into my profile, figure

6:52

out what I'm vulnerable about and manipulate

6:55

that.

6:55

What's our bigger concern?

6:57

Let's let's let's do them several. So let's

6:59

let's talk about the spying first. Now,

7:03

the Chinese government does a lot of spine and

7:05

they were behind the Equal Facts data breach. Remember

7:07

that one seventeen, under forty seven

7:10

million credit records of Americans

7:12

were stolen by the Chinese government. They

7:14

were behind the Office of Personnel Management. I

7:17

think that was a year later. This is the

7:19

profiles of everybody with security clearance. They

7:22

hacked Mariota Hotels. They told

7:25

database the zoo stay and where. If you sort

7:27

of look at this, they kind

7:29

of want to know who comes in to their country. US a government

7:31

employee. If you have all

7:33

of this data, you could

7:35

know a lot about individuals. And

7:37

you can imagine US government wants

7:40

this data. Chinese government, a lot

7:42

of governments want this kind of data. So yes,

7:44

you could easily imagine China

7:47

collecting data on Americans through

7:49

TikTok. You could also imagine them buying

7:52

it by from Facebook, like Facebook sales all this

7:54

stuff, so they don't need their on social network.

7:57

So that's sort of data surveillance. So

8:00

yeah, I think there's an issue here. Is

8:02

it really different than Facebook or Twitter everybody

8:04

else? Probably not?

8:05

But wait, but wait, let me let me before you go

8:07

into the other. The issue was that

8:09

the Chinese government, if you have a Chinese company,

8:12

which this is a Chinese company,

8:14

can decide to do whatever

8:16

they want, and then the Chinese government goes, we want

8:18

your fine, we want your info, and they have to them.

8:20

So of course, the same

8:23

way when the US government asks

8:26

Google or Apple or

8:28

Facebook for data, the US government lead

8:30

the companies give it to the US government. And

8:33

you know, we know something about how

8:35

these companies respond to data requests

8:38

from countries around the planet, right, you know

8:40

they do. We

8:42

don't know to what extent they

8:44

These companies respond to orders

8:48

by the Chinese government for day US companies,

8:50

but you're right, a Chinese company will

8:53

respond quicker or effectively give

8:55

it all right, like more under the control

8:57

of Chinese governments. So that's definitely a concern.

9:00

It's a matter of degree, not client. So

9:02

that surveils Let's move to the other

9:04

half. Manipulation, all right, we

9:07

know that US companies engage

9:10

in some manipulation. Facebook

9:12

rand and experiment in mood alteration

9:15

where they where they show that if they showed

9:18

you happy posts by your friends,

9:20

you'd be happier they showed you sad post

9:22

you'd be sad. They showed that

9:25

they were able to affect whether

9:27

you voted or not by showing

9:29

you posts of people you knew

9:31

who also voted, or not showing you those.

9:34

We don't know what extent the US

9:36

companies manipulate, right which you only know

9:39

Twitter. Make sure you see

9:41

Musk's posts and the posts that he likes.

9:45

So yes, you could easily imagine

9:49

TikTok doing the same thing. And even

9:51

though that malicious intent, it is clear

9:54

that the algorithm sends people down

9:56

rabbit holes of depression

9:58

or you know, anxiety,

10:01

or maybe even blissfulness

10:03

and happiness I guess said is

10:05

better than happy for engagement. So

10:07

we know that, like everybody else,

10:10

TikTok does that. That is

10:12

that is the nature of social media. The question

10:14

here is could they do it

10:16

on behest of their government? And the answer

10:19

is yes. We kind

10:21

of know the answer because the TikTok

10:23

available in China is

10:26

very different than the TikTok av the United States.

10:28

The Chinese government actually has

10:30

restrictions on the amount of

10:33

this kind of manipulation TikTok

10:35

and do on its own citizens, but

10:38

in the US it's a free for all. TikTok

10:40

and behave just like Facebook, Twitter and everybody else.

10:42

Wow, that's that's a really really

10:44

right there. Is it much of a difference from.

10:48

You know, I don't know, because it's not much

10:50

experimentation. I believe it is. I believe

10:52

there are rules on

10:55

on the kind of contact content TikTok

10:58

and show Chinese users they have on

11:00

engagements, so they don't want people addicted to it,

11:02

you know, But that's not just TikTok,

11:04

that's all social media. But of course

11:06

it's in China, so you've got you know, the Western

11:09

social media doesn't penetrate.

11:10

But Bruce, and you're talking about usually

11:12

young users. Correct, TikTok's

11:15

used younger than.

11:15

Other Seventy percent of young

11:18

Americans use TikTok. It's a crazy

11:21

number.

11:22

That's that's insane. So what about misinformation

11:24

pushing out generated

11:27

misinformation that the Chinese

11:29

government wants they use to create some kind of chaos

11:31

over here and division.

11:33

They surely can. They probably better off using Facebook

11:35

like everybody else does. I mean, that's what that's what

11:37

Russia does. That's what so so likely

11:39

they'll use Facebook because I think

11:42

you know, more older people are

11:44

on Facebook. But sure they can use TikTok,

11:47

and are they just like everybody else. So

11:49

again, there's no difference here, this information on

11:51

Twitter, this invation on Facebook, on

11:53

TikTok. The question which

11:55

things interesting is is there a

11:57

difference? You know, when you hear

12:00

also banned TikTok, we talk about that because that's

12:02

kind of a nutty ideas on its face,

12:04

they're saying there's a qualitative difference between

12:07

TikTok and Facebook. I'm

12:10

not convinced there is. Well, there's a

12:12

difference a degree probably, but

12:14

not a difference in kind.

12:15

But our Facebook, Instagram,

12:18

the other major

12:21

social media companies are they American based

12:23

companies.

12:24

Yes, So the big difference is the

12:26

Chinese.

12:27

Government is TikTok, it's our

12:30

spying is good, they're spying no good.

12:32

Well, but the question is how much spying

12:34

can the Chinese government do using

12:37

the American companies?

12:38

Right?

12:38

They can't, Right, they can't

12:40

get the same amount of bold data because

12:42

they don't have that direct government line. But

12:45

you know, we know they try to hack into these

12:47

companies all the time. Google

12:50

has been fending off China for like a couple

12:52

of decades now, usually

12:54

going after the Gmail accounts of Taiwanese

12:56

dissidents, so you

12:58

know, are they in We don't know.

13:01

So let me ask you about this because I've read that the

13:03

algorithm is different for TikTok,

13:06

that the algorithm there is

13:08

about minutes and hours of time

13:11

spent, whereas the others we're talking about are about

13:13

clicks and engagement. Is that

13:15

a nuance that makes a difference?

13:18

It probably does, you

13:20

know. So all of these Western

13:24

social media sites, and we'll add TikTok

13:26

in the United States, right, they make

13:28

their money showing you ass So

13:31

their goal is to keep you on their platform as

13:33

long as possible, which

13:36

tends to mean extreme content,

13:38

things that pissue off, things

13:40

that are outrageous, and

13:42

you know, cute puppy videos, right, So

13:46

all of those things are shown on

13:49

all these platforms to keep you engaged.

13:52

Now, it's interesting the difference. Apple's

13:55

the one company whose

13:57

business model doesn't rely on spying you.

14:00

Right.

14:00

Apple makes money selling you over price electrocs.

14:03

So Apple systems

14:05

tend not to have that addictive

14:08

quality because the company doesn't

14:10

need addiction to make money. Wow,

14:13

there's other companies do.

14:15

Right.

14:16

The more you use Google, the more money

14:18

they make. The more you use Facebook,

14:20

and the more money they make as

14:22

opposed to Apple, which is singularly different.

14:25

So given all this, what

14:28

as a security tech guru,

14:31

what are you called upon most to do?

14:34

What do you do for these companies?

14:35

And my second part of that question is what can

14:38

what can the consumer? What can I do

14:41

while I'm on my social media to

14:43

push back at this?

14:44

If anything?

14:45

Are you gonna hate that answer? Uh?

14:47

I mean, what

14:56

can the consumer?

14:57

What can I do while I'm on my

14:59

social media to push back

15:01

at this?

15:01

If anything, you're gonna hate that answer?

15:04

Uh? I mean a lot of what I do is security

15:06

consulting, you know, how to networks

15:08

safe? The answer your question when you asked,

15:11

like, as a generic user, what can

15:13

I do? And the answer is almost

15:15

nothing, right, because

15:17

your data is not in your hands. Think about what your

15:19

data is. Your emails

15:22

on Gmail, your photos are

15:24

on No No, No, some photo site. Your

15:26

documents are in the clouds somewhere else. You

15:29

know, your calendar is here. Your

15:32

data is no longer under your control now,

15:36

So all these security measures, you've

15:39

got to trust the companies. And

15:42

that's a terrible story because

15:44

the companies are like pretty untrustworthy.

15:47

But at this point, the

15:49

advice I can give you is very much around

15:51

the edges, because your data

15:54

is elsewhere controlled by other

15:56

companies with their rules. And

15:58

you call up, oh, I don't know, you

16:01

know, facky and say, you know, I want to know what

16:03

security measures my photographs are being

16:05

protected by and they say, no, we

16:08

won't tell you. Your choice is

16:10

to trust them are not. So what can you do?

16:13

Don't have a cell phone, don't have

16:15

an email address, don't have a credit card,

16:17

like, and that's kind of stupid advice

16:21

for the first quarter twenty percent.

16:23

So I can't let me ask

16:25

you this. Can I Can

16:28

I game my feed? Can I

16:30

refuse to click on stuff that.

16:31

I know they want me to click on?

16:33

Can I can I not be sucked

16:35

in by the enticements and thereby

16:37

change what they send me?

16:40

I mean you can, like, if you stop clicking on

16:42

those cute puppy photos, they're going to stop sending

16:44

you cute bubby photos. But honestly, they're

16:47

cute bubby photos. They are hard not to click on.

16:49

But I'm thinking more about I'm thinking

16:51

more about political stories or

16:53

cultural stories where you

16:56

know it's being fed to me because they think they understand

16:58

my bias.

17:01

And you know, maybe so.

17:02

One of the things I teach this in a

17:04

policy school here at Harvard, and

17:07

I had students last week download

17:10

their Facebook and Google data. Both of those

17:12

companies allow you to download

17:14

their data about you. Do

17:17

it. It's actually interesting

17:20

what they have on you, how

17:22

they've categorized you, what

17:24

they've gotten right with they've gotten wrong. Now,

17:26

in the United States you don't have any ability to correct that.

17:29

In Europe you have some ability to

17:31

have them delete your data and correct your data.

17:33

Not in the US you have no recourse.

17:34

I downloaded on I see

17:36

egregious things said, There's

17:39

no way to correct, no way to contact them.

17:41

Says you see posts on

17:43

Facebook you wrote but never sent.

17:46

Can you well hold on hold on a second

17:51

posted post.

17:54

Yes, if you wrote something and said,

17:56

you know, I don't want to send that, delete

17:58

it. They've got a copy.

18:00

We need to do. You got to testify in front of Congress

18:02

again. Damn it.

18:04

I you know you can see

18:06

it yourself. It's it's I get it. It's

18:09

there. They have an idea of where you

18:11

live and where you work based on sort

18:14

of where you are during the day and night, and

18:17

of course you all have one. They know who you sleep with, like

18:19

are you are you able to?

18:20

Uh?

18:21

Is that something you can explain, like in a few

18:23

sentences about how somebody goes to download

18:25

their data that way?

18:27

Uh?

18:27

You know what I tell them students is go do it

18:30

because it's not that hard. I mean, type

18:32

into Google, download your Facebook data, gives

18:34

you instructions.

18:35

It's not you know what's so funny if

18:37

you got me the next question was going to ask, it would

18:39

be that how do you down? How

18:41

do you download?

18:42

Because I'm now seriously, I'm I

18:45

I signed up for Facebook.

18:46

I have never used it.

18:48

So I always tell anybody if you saw something

18:50

of me on Facebook, it ain't.

18:51

But knows you have Facebook collect data

18:53

about you even if you're not on Facebook.

18:55

Well, then may I just say them?

19:02

So when you testified in front of Congress,

19:04

were you completely frustrated

19:07

when when you finished by

19:09

the questions they asked, So, I'll.

19:11

Give you a secret unless your high

19:13

profile like a Zickberg. I

19:15

mean the test of the congressional hearings you

19:17

watch on television, most of the members

19:20

aren't there. They're staffers there.

19:22

Wait that.

19:25

I knew that, But that's this is

19:27

a good thing.

19:28

The staffers are who you want to talk. They're

19:31

the ones who know stuff and get stuff

19:33

done. You know, I tend to know.

19:35

I'm speaking to the staffers. So yeah, the members

19:37

will ask questions. There'll be questions,

19:39

the staffers wrote often they want

19:41

to hear the answers. I'm good at giving answers

19:44

and non techi terms, so I'm likable.

19:47

You know.

19:47

I'll give them homework. They laugh.

19:49

But I want to hang myself since we started this

19:52

whole.

19:52

Yea, but let's talk about

19:54

answers. Let's

19:57

talk about the notion of

20:00

of what we might meet and say

20:02

to ban Facebook.

20:03

Right, I mean I was going to ask

20:05

you, how would you change the laws here?

20:07

Yeah?

20:08

Okay, So there are several ways

20:10

to do this. So the first one

20:13

is you could ban

20:16

the app stores from selling

20:18

the app I would make from making the app available,

20:20

So the Apple and Google app stores app

20:23

is no longer available. This is

20:25

like vaguely effective. It won't affect

20:28

the seventy percent of young people have already installed

20:30

the app. It's on their phone. Anybody

20:33

who jail breaks their Apple phone

20:35

or uses an alternate app store for Google, will

20:37

they all download it? So you can still do

20:40

it. Presumably the kids will exchange

20:42

tricks on how to do this. It'll be vaguely

20:45

effective. It doesn't

20:48

affect the website at all. You

20:50

can always go to TikTok through the website.

20:53

So not a great idea. Let's do

20:55

another one. Congress can

20:57

ban US companies from

21:00

doing business with Byte dance by dance

21:02

to the company that would and this is what Donald

21:05

Trump tried in twenty twenty and

21:07

the courts courts blocked it. All

21:10

right, So what

21:13

this does is it keeps

21:15

TikTok from being on American infrastructure.

21:17

It would have some effect. It would definitely cut

21:19

into TikTok's business. US

21:22

advertisers couldn't pay money,

21:24

but adds on TikTok if it's actually

21:26

subsidied that Chinese wouldn't make

21:28

that much of a difference. Maybe a little slower

21:30

to load because the servers will be in Europe

21:33

or in Canada instead of in the

21:35

United States. Okay, so

21:37

that's two. The third thing

21:39

they can do is actually

21:43

try to ban the

21:45

companies from being on the

21:47

internet the United States. And this would

21:49

be incredibly difficult. This

21:52

is building a censorship regime like

21:54

China. We do not have the ability

21:57

to enact that sort of ban, So

22:01

our options tend to be further

22:04

back in the financial realm, either

22:06

prohibiting the app stores from having it,

22:08

phivting US companies from doing business with byte

22:11

Dance. I'm

22:13

not gonvin still be that effective. And

22:15

they're a big deal. I mean there

22:17

really are. You know, we do

22:19

that for things that are actually

22:22

freaking dangerous.

22:26

So they can't prove, they can't prove unequivocally

22:29

what's going on, So, Bingo, are youre likely

22:32

you're.

22:32

Being spied on by the Chinese?

22:34

I mean, duh, if

22:36

we had a functional Congress and

22:38

that they were savvy enough in this area, is

22:42

there any kind of laws that we could

22:44

create that would diminish

22:47

the ability of these companies to legally do what they're

22:49

doing?

22:50

And yes, I mean right now, surveillance

22:52

as a business model is legal without

22:55

any regulation. You

22:57

know, Google can sell what kind

22:59

of you like to whoever wants to buy

23:01

it. So yes,

23:04

and Europe past some of these laws. The US

23:06

doesn't. So when I think

23:08

of the problem and the solution, I

23:11

go back up right. I want

23:15

serious data privacy laws that

23:18

protect us from all the companies,

23:21

not just TikTok, but the rest of them as well.

23:23

Yeah, you know, a good regulation

23:26

that protects us from all the companies, protects

23:28

us from the Chinese. Now i'd like

23:30

to be able to say that. Look, you know, surveillance

23:33

as a business model is now a national security

23:35

concern.

23:36

So they're collecting all this information on

23:38

us. And these companies want to grow and grow and grow.

23:40

Where are they going to go next for revenue

23:43

model? Since they have access?

23:46

Is there something that's coming that we're not prepared

23:48

for that you see from the cyber area that we

23:50

haven't even dealt with yet.

23:53

So they've already telegraphed, they've

23:55

already said pretty much all of them that

23:57

their future is AI, that

24:00

AI being able to analyze

24:04

better and manipulate better. Now,

24:06

I don't know how much of this is real, how much of this is a red

24:08

herring, but that is what they

24:10

are saying. And they're looking

24:13

at the same things you are, right like, we're saturated.

24:15

What do we do? They see AI

24:17

as a way to loose their.

24:18

Revenue revenue screen because that's what it's about.

24:22

Well, thanks, it's been a pleasure having you on. I now have

24:24

and I'm going to go hang myself.

24:28

I like this optimistic podcast.

24:29

This is great, but have you changed

24:32

your baid? Do you feel pretty good every day? Do you get up

24:34

and go to Harvard whistling fixing on the way to

24:36

class or do you have.

24:37

Honestly, you have to I

24:40

mean yes, I mean this is a lot of bad

24:42

stuff in there, but you know, I

24:45

tend to be longerm optimistic. This is not gonna

24:47

be the thing that will, you know, destroy civilization.

24:49

We've gone through a lot worse, and honestly,

24:51

everybody makes their own decisions. I

24:54

don't use Facebook, but I freaking

24:56

play Pokemon Go.

24:57

That's a space game, you

25:00

know.

25:00

So I'm not telling you

25:02

to not to do these things. Don't think

25:05

of that. We all make our own trade

25:07

offs. Now, you want to watch the

25:09

cute puppy videos, go to town. It makes

25:11

you happy.

25:13

You like the puppy thing, don't you

25:15

You know, I don't know.

25:16

I don't actually watch it's

25:18

what's coming up. It's coming up.

25:20

Well, I don't actually watch my own porn. I don't

25:22

do it. I have puppy

25:26

is playing with my IP.

25:27

All right, this is this is the way to a sharing.

25:30

You just made just uncomfortable.

25:32

Finally, fantastic, I got.

25:35

Well, you're thanks for coming on, man, I you

25:37

amazing, amazed, Thank you very

25:39

much for coming on. Appreciate it.

25:41

See on the app. Okay,

25:54

listen, if you had to do it, could you unplug from

25:56

all of it?

25:58

You couldn't do it.

25:58

No, what would I do to talk to you all day? I want

26:01

to see stuff that's interesting.

26:02

Well, you couldn't talk to me. I'm like, I'm away myself.

26:05

Well, what did we do is get this? We had it? But

26:08

you can't. You can't opt out. You can't opt out

26:11

there.

26:11

Honestly, there are days where I wish every

26:14

satellite would just explode so that we

26:16

could go back a little.

26:17

Bit to no communication systems.

26:19

It wasn't that there were no communication

26:21

systems. Things false.

26:25

First of all, there was more privacy. Second of all,

26:27

false falsehoods didn't

26:30

propagate.

26:30

By the way, there was no more prophecy. My

26:33

grandman knew everything that's going on

26:35

with everybody. I used to say to her,

26:37

did you read Grandpa's diary? You look at you stuff?

26:39

She said, Well, I'm going to go to bed every night with a stranger.

26:42

She said, you listen, you follow me up and followed you

26:44

over. I want to know exactly what, David.

26:47

What do you got David.

26:50

Oh Man.

26:52

What don't I have?

26:53

Right, what don't you have?

26:55

Let's see?

26:56

Can I add to the pessimism

26:59

or I don't know.

27:01

We've had enough of that. TikTok.

27:04

Have you got you guys views TikTok.

27:06

I do not.

27:07

I work

27:09

on TikTok A lot. Go ahead.

27:11

You know what tworking is.

27:13

So that is something.

27:17

Well, condescen

27:20

means talking down to you.

27:22

Let me give you a little view of some of the things

27:25

that you're missing.

27:27

Okay, so here we go, leave you on things

27:29

we are missing. Yeah.

27:31

So the number one video

27:34

of all time on TikTok has

27:36

two point one billion views. It's

27:39

from a guy named Zach King,

27:42

and it's called Zach King's Magic Bride.

27:44

I can't believe you haven't seen this. He

27:46

appears. He's like on a suburban street

27:49

and sort of a Harry Potter get

27:52

up and he's like literally flying.

27:55

I've seen him.

27:56

I've seen it. And it's a mirror

27:58

and he shows you the mirror and the thing.

28:00

Yes, yes, yes, so that

28:02

that seat you watch

28:04

it.

28:04

I don't watch it on TikTok. I didn't

28:06

watch it on TikTok. Oh it came

28:08

to me instead. Oh, Instagram.

28:11

Well, there you go. You're luckily.

28:13

Luckily for you, the Instagram has

28:15

completely ripped off the TikTok look

28:17

at you.

28:18

Another one.

28:19

This one's actually a sort of sweet.

28:21

It's from a woman

28:24

named Naya Dolly uh,

28:26

and it's.

28:27

Called Nya Dolly's Beauty Tutorial.

28:29

Look in this one.

28:31

But she's a very dark skinned African

28:33

American woman doing her makeup, and

28:36

she's very sweet, and it just sort of

28:38

shows you, you know, a little bit like

28:40

it's not all the typical, you know,

28:42

stuff that you actually would assume was

28:44

was our TikTok.

28:45

So that was nice.

28:47

Some of the other things that I looked at that

28:50

are nonsense. The world's

28:52

largest elephant toothpaste

28:54

experiment, So that one has two hundred

28:56

and sixty six million, because I have no idea

28:59

what that's about. Another one,

29:01

this is the number two video on the

29:03

on the app.

29:04

It's Welcome to the Sister's

29:07

Christmas Party by James Charles

29:09

that has one point seven

29:12

billion views. And this one,

29:14

and I know you're gonna download the app because

29:16

it's so exciting.

29:17

It's called Bella Porches m

29:20

to the b.

29:23

Uh Huh, which has seven hundred and thirty

29:25

one million views, so.

29:27

And you have no idea what happens on the m

29:29

to the bit. No, I couldn't be

29:31

bothered, You couldn't. I thought.

29:33

The one that would have gone through the roof is the

29:36

the iguana who's having the acid trip?

29:39

Well, whose floor is that? Not my floor,

29:41

not my flaw and not my problem. Remember that one?

29:44

That that thing, Oh

29:46

that was one of the funny.

29:47

You know what, this is scaring me more than the security

29:49

brief. How about that? You don't know that we

29:52

spend time looking at this stuff that the iguana

29:55

iguana, Well.

29:55

It's not talking one. It's a it's an animated

29:58

one.

29:59

Animated one.

30:00

Apparently the story behind it was a guy dropped

30:03

acid and they put him in a closet and recorded

30:05

him and then they animated this lizard

30:08

whatever. But

30:11

that that moves society forward.

30:13

That kind of Yes, it makes us better,

30:16

yes, better people, and it also gets a Chinese

30:18

to go. I don't know what.

30:19

I don't know what.

30:19

I don't know what we do.

30:22

You know what, we put up a lot of stuff that

30:24

con That's what I was with their head.

30:27

We game it with that, and I only

30:29

watched certain kinds of things. Can I yes,

30:32

right, cougar. Yeah,

30:34

what's that cougar?

30:36

Ham around with these all day

30:38

long?

30:38

Yes?

30:39

Yes, wow, give me another?

30:41

Okay, okay, all right, all

30:44

right, hold on second.

30:45

Do something with a train and hold on

30:49

dancing. No.

30:50

I was going to go right to Madonna Each,

30:52

and I got to give me a minute,

30:54

right, but Madonna

31:01

Each the world's largest wawfut,

31:08

we're going lee there. We only got

31:10

it, Thank you very much, Davin.

31:14

I feel like we haven't moved the ball at

31:16

all. The question was TikTok

31:19

safe or not? Well?

31:21

The question was is China profiting?

31:24

Yes?

31:25

Are they spying?

31:26

Yes? Are we yes?

31:27

Is everybody spying?

31:29

Yes?

31:30

Have we been compromised?

31:31

Yes?

31:32

Are we in trouble?

31:33

Yes?

31:33

Is anyone going to help us?

31:35

No?

31:38

You are our future

31:41

people who.

31:42

Have not resited.

31:44

Yes, that's

31:46

another episode if really no really comes to a

31:48

close. I know you're wondering how many global

31:50

users do the top ranked social media sites

31:53

actually have that answer in a moment, But first

31:55

let's thank our guest, Bruce Schneier.

31:57

You can follow Bruce.

31:58

On x where he is at Schneier. On

32:00

Facebook, he is Bruce Schneier and he has a

32:02

blog at Schneier dot com. Find

32:05

all pertinent links in our show notes, our

32:08

little show hangs out on Instagram, TikTok,

32:11

YouTube, and threads at really No Really

32:13

podcast And of course you can share

32:15

your thoughts and feedback with us online at

32:17

reallynoreally dot com. If you have

32:19

a really some amazing factor

32:21

story that boggles your mind, share

32:24

it with us and if we use it, we will send

32:26

you a little gift. Nothing life changing,

32:29

obviously, but it's the thought that counts. Check

32:31

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32:34

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32:36

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32:38

we do each Tuesday. So listen

32:40

and follow us on the iHeartRadio app,

32:42

Apple podcasts or wherever you get

32:44

your podcasts.

32:46

Now, what are the.

32:47

Top social media apps and how many users

32:49

do they have?

32:50

Well lower down the list or some you may recognize.

32:52

Threads has one hundred million users,

32:54

Cora has three hundred million, LinkedIn

32:57

has four hundred and twenty four million

32:59

users. X formerly Twitter, ranks

33:01

in at number thirteen with five hundred

33:03

and fifty million users, and the top

33:05

ten ranked from number ten to number one. Sinoweibo

33:08

five hundred and ninety nine million, Kui

33:10

Show six hundred and seventy three million,

33:13

Snapchat seven hundred and fifty MILS,

33:15

Telegram eight hundred mil, Little

33:17

Old TikTok at one point two to two billion

33:20

users, we Chat one point three

33:22

to two billion, Instagram two point

33:24

oh four billion users, YouTube

33:26

coming in at two point four to nine billion.

33:29

What's App is number two with two point seven

33:31

eight billion and blowing them away at

33:33

number one is you guessed it? Facebook

33:36

with three point oh five billion users

33:38

per month worldwide and maybe

33:41

two hundred of them follow me. No,

33:43

really, million,

33:48

It really is the production of iHeartRadio and Blase

33:51

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