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capella.edu. Accreditation. I

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live by routines, especially my

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same-day delivery routine with Shipt, because

1:01

when Sunday rolls around, I'm not

1:03

scared. I got my shopper on the

1:05

way with all my favorites. Shipt,

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delight in every delivery. Learn

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more at shipt.com. The

1:12

South Dakota Stories, Volume 7. My

1:15

trip to South Dakota was the

1:17

best summer ever. Now I don't

1:19

need to go to Mars, because

1:21

I've been to the Badlands. And

1:24

I caught a bigger walleye than Dad

1:26

when we went to the Missouri River.

1:28

Then I rode my bike through these

1:30

huge rocks called Needles. Ooh, I also

1:32

saw my first herd of bison, even

1:34

a fuzzy furry baby one. I can't

1:36

wait to go back and see more.

1:39

There's so much South Dakota, so

1:41

little time. This

1:46

is Beyond a Reasonable Doubt with

1:49

your hosts, Mark Garagos and Gary Smith. Welcome,

1:56

GPS. How are you this fine Sunday morning at the

1:58

office? Walter of Bard. I

2:01

am great, Mark. Happy Cinco de Mayo and happy Sunday

2:03

to you as well. Yes, this

2:05

is a day when more tequila

2:07

will be consumed internationally

2:10

than virtually any other day is my humble

2:12

belief. You know, May 5th... With a friend

2:14

of ours doing a large portion of that

2:16

for the city of Las Vegas, I would

2:19

assume. Yes, right? I'm sure

2:21

she's doing her part, you know,

2:24

so that you understand, May the

2:26

5th is the day

2:28

when the most tequila is consumed.

2:31

October the 5th is apparently, I'm

2:33

told, the most popular birthday because

2:35

it's the exact mean of the

2:37

gestation period after New Year's Eve.

2:39

So the 5ths are always a

2:41

big day. Yes, they are. You

2:47

know, speaking of big days, in California,

2:50

we had a very interesting case that

2:52

you pointed out and if

2:54

you want to put it up on the screen

2:56

or you have a clip of it or do

2:58

you have just the synopsis

3:01

of the decision in regards

3:03

to detentions of whether cops

3:05

can detain you? Yeah, absolutely.

3:08

I pulled a clay Instagram post from Los

3:10

Angeles Magazine that I believe does a good

3:12

job at summarizing it. So I'll throw that

3:14

up on the screen. And it

3:16

reads, in part, the California Supreme Court has significantly altered

3:19

police procedures by ruling that police

3:21

cannot detain individuals solely because they

3:23

avoid contact. The landmark

3:25

judgment reshapes the legal landscape for

3:28

officers across the state and has

3:30

wide range implications for future litigation,

3:32

particularly where claims of racial profiling

3:34

arise. Yeah,

3:37

so it's always been kind of

3:39

an irritation when

3:43

you have... Normally,

3:45

this comes about, at least from

3:47

a criminal standpoint, where you're doing a

3:49

motion to suppress a 1538.5 in

3:53

a courtroom and the cop

3:55

will say, Fertive Movement or

3:58

I saw... I asked... They to the

4:00

person tried to get away. for me it

4:02

didn't bother with gauge of things like that.

4:05

You have no. You. Do not

4:07

have to engage with. I've often

4:09

said it's a very fine line.

4:12

As to why or read and

4:14

what you do a bit. I

4:16

was thinking about this bizarre leads

4:18

in connection with a call I

4:20

got last week away. Your friend

4:22

of mine said his wife's had

4:24

been taken into custody at a

4:26

local. Retail places.

4:28

I said when images taken into

4:30

custody of the police or he

4:33

says no the private security guards

4:35

So I said that you are

4:37

you talking to react to Merger

4:39

on space and asked them. Under

4:42

what authority their holy you and

4:44

she did. The guide dogs are

4:47

basically shut up by such They

4:49

have no authority to just detain

4:51

you Derricks a private security companies

4:53

just leave and is they touch

4:55

you would then we'll call the

4:57

police and sure enough see last

4:59

in they didn't touch or they

5:02

were trained well enough to know

5:04

you could don't hear. This is

5:06

with a similar situation when a

5:08

car. And it's a

5:10

similar but it's like top tells you what

5:12

you want to have it encounter in the

5:15

top selling you are You know I would

5:17

see your idea what to see this or

5:19

that you as what am I doing Earth

5:21

why is there is no speak you just

5:24

see it takes people. For. No reason.

5:26

Basically was what the suddenly

5:28

decides and then four seven

5:30

you will encounter that you'd

5:32

normally will spiral out of

5:34

control. So. I guess

5:36

as a lame and I'm wondering you

5:38

know to what extent does this? It

5:40

does, This carries it. Does this mean

5:42

that As long as I am now.

5:45

Is. Sober and not doing anything that could be

5:47

perceived to be a violation of law is a

5:49

police officer walks up to me and me a

5:51

question I just don't have to responding and turn

5:53

around and walk away. Arguably yes

5:56

I am The reason I hate

5:58

to give advice or this. I

6:00

don't want somebody to bike much

6:02

on. Yatra. Gonna I'm

6:04

not looking for necessarily legal advice, I'm just

6:06

trying to understand Spears It's hard to imagine

6:08

as a as citizens that if a police

6:10

officer tries to engage you and you turn

6:12

around and walk away without responding at all

6:14

verbal he to their question that that's going

6:16

to go well. So I just as I'm

6:19

trying to figure out or authors you know

6:21

the body cameras on because I had to

6:23

beg as births you begin with I also

6:25

refer to as to tempt of class regular

6:27

I have just seen a lot of celebration

6:29

about this and out about how it's going

6:31

to be. You know such a landmark for

6:33

citizens. And I just I have a hard

6:35

time figuring out you know it seems or

6:37

at the old adage that I've heard million

6:39

times as I see and I'll cop follows

6:41

you from fifty miles, find something you did

6:44

wrong type of thing. So it's like I

6:46

just i have a hard time under his

6:48

father used the same as more Guys of

6:50

the Joint because of a broken tail light

6:52

than any other asserts exactly. So suicide on

6:54

you know in practice I'm not sure how

6:56

this Anderson with the ruling means and intellectually

6:58

and arguably which is the word you used

7:00

when you're answering my question, I understand that

7:02

it will have implications. In terms of the

7:04

courts but I just to have a hard time

7:06

seeing a real change in policing as a result

7:09

of this. You. Know we might.

7:11

I might worthy of. maybe next

7:13

week. If this thing gathers a

7:15

retraction we will. Brigid Nerd. Either

7:18

Lord current law enforcement or next

7:20

law enforcement was talk about the

7:22

do have to this because it

7:24

is as you he is be

7:26

a controversy within the law. It's

7:28

only good it's the becomes blown

7:31

up so the speaks of posts

7:33

twenty twenty and things of that

7:35

days or but it's always been

7:37

an issue forgivable birds and I

7:39

cried neighborhood. Those kinds of ads

7:41

phrases that are used in order to

7:44

justify probable cause on her in a

7:46

good back and forth. And so this

7:48

is a I. I don't think it's

7:50

over stating that he does of important

7:52

decisions. Can a wide range of reputations

7:55

absolutely school keep an eye on and

7:57

as you said maybe will I will

7:59

have for. Them Guess that might have a

8:01

a unique insight to bring to the audience

8:03

and other news they're either certainly has been

8:05

Ceo the Trump Trial going on, and I

8:08

don't feel that it's necessarily been getting the

8:10

media coverage that it might have had there

8:12

been a visual component to it. I mean,

8:14

this in the news is certainly there every

8:16

day if you want it, but it's not

8:19

that it doesn't feel like something that is

8:21

there if you're not looking for it necessarily.

8:23

Given been monument is. Nature

8:25

of the fact that this is the first time

8:27

in U S former Us president has been tried

8:30

for him. Or far

8:32

our different Boston and sounds

8:34

hims Hampton as sir, found

8:36

in contempt by you know

8:38

with a financial panic penalty

8:41

that is. I mean,

8:43

certainly relatively are inconsequential one

8:45

would think. Well.

8:48

I'd rather go back and for

8:50

this argument by be a bill

8:52

a billion times. This idea of

8:54

finding a criminal defended influence them

8:56

to during a trial where the

8:59

person's especially in this case but

9:01

I'd term to for me too

9:03

politically different angle by a the

9:05

was usually if you're like me

9:07

and you represent is notorious of

9:10

it in some is people who

9:12

have been the subject of much

9:14

public ridicule. Woods for me. The.

9:17

Idea of fighting back the idea

9:19

that you could just be uniformly

9:21

criticized, the idea that response just

9:23

sit there it's useless be kind

9:25

of so to speak as really

9:27

turned inside out what the gag

9:29

order originally was. Possibly you probably

9:31

could sites the Us supreme court

9:33

to use computer heard be said

9:35

of noted times deep max off

9:37

the. The. To

9:39

the whole rationales for the gag

9:41

orders which have been to an

9:43

end, these ideas the you a

9:45

little differently to that response has

9:48

been turned inside out. I have

9:50

a real problem with the ideas

9:52

of a criminal defendant been told

9:54

that they t it do etti

9:56

that now you magnify that was

9:58

somebody who is. The. the

10:00

presumptive nominee of the party that

10:03

is running in an election in

10:05

less than seven months. To

10:07

me, it's just outrageous that a

10:10

state court judge in a

10:12

criminal prosecution that is brought

10:15

in at this particular time

10:17

period and they're pulling

10:19

somebody off of the campaign trail

10:21

is then being told, I'm going

10:24

to find you for your speech.

10:26

I think it's, I know it's

10:28

not popular in my bubble, but

10:31

it's outrageous. Frankly,

10:34

I shouldn't stand it. It should

10:37

be unconstitutional. Having said all

10:39

of that, you've got a

10:41

couple of clips that I would like

10:44

to comment on. Yeah, absolutely. We had

10:46

some analysis over the latter

10:48

part of this week from the

10:50

Alex Wagner program, I believe. So let's check

10:52

out the first of two clips that we have on

10:54

that. This was all done

10:56

because of the election and that's what

10:59

this testimony is about. So attacking him

11:01

over, there's an extortion plot. It just,

11:03

he was trying to make him look

11:05

dirty, which maybe landed

11:07

some small books of embarrassment for this

11:09

lawyer. And it's true, this was a

11:12

seedy type of work that he's peddling

11:14

his client sexual liaisons for jobs, for

11:16

money. So it's seedy, but it doesn't

11:19

land any legal blows. It

11:21

doesn't involve Donald Trump, essentially what

11:23

the DA's office is alleging. That's

11:26

Duncan Levens. Duncan is an ex-DA

11:29

prosecutor. I don't know him, but

11:31

we've crossed paths on various cases.

11:34

I couldn't disagree more with

11:37

that analysis. I know Keith Davidson.

11:39

I've represented clients who have been

11:43

on the receiving end of

11:45

a Keith Davidson attempt to

11:48

negotiate a

11:51

payment. The

11:54

idea that you're just going to

11:56

say, and I know

11:59

it's the popular thing. The say I

12:01

get that it's going to say

12:03

is to embrace this prosecutorial theory

12:05

that it was time for the

12:07

elections. You've. Got

12:09

isolate more credibility and leave

12:11

level of sussex you say?

12:14

Oh, which the prosecution to their credit

12:16

described the sites and there were mixed

12:18

mode it's I think they're gonna screw

12:20

jury instructions and so I'm expanded. Sure,

12:22

I mean I don't think that I

12:24

don't think that a fair minded person

12:27

would not go along with that because

12:29

there is it. It's such a. You.

12:32

Know the the contents of the

12:34

the things that were trying to

12:36

be silenced can be ascribed to

12:38

so many different things. A into

12:40

say that it was only done

12:42

because of one thing. Pick. pick

12:44

your choice. by the way not

12:46

maybe. maybe if you're not doing

12:48

election picked you know marital fidelity

12:50

you know impacts damage to the

12:52

family Wizards just reputation to draw.

12:54

Sadly exactly the reason the people

12:56

have Pr people on retailers in

12:58

the eve with the entertainment industry

13:00

which is where Donald Trump. Was

13:02

coming from was he was a

13:04

T V reality show source of

13:07

the I days have I been?

13:09

There is a whole outage industry

13:11

of people manage the reputation. You

13:13

can describe it to the alexa

13:15

whoops You can also say about

13:18

the election study alexis just in

13:20

the sea and since the fishbowl

13:22

that your swear begins to try

13:24

to do to to control the

13:26

damage and so yeah he. Is.

13:29

Such a strange legal

13:31

theories as is such

13:33

a I'm also. I

13:37

stated a stretch to just

13:39

say that this is for

13:41

a like should lose Broads.

13:44

By. Adding sense that the probe I get

13:46

is your face if you're if you're a

13:48

defend your face with with the prosecutor brought

13:51

up. If. You keep going, you'll

13:53

see I got some other club. It's about

13:55

some of his commentary. Tell

13:57

that eventually. What The Da's office has alleged

13:59

enemies? And when you talk about Michael

14:02

Cohen's, I mean, I find it comic,

14:06

the motivations they ascribe to Michael

14:08

Cohen, they say that, you know, this is

14:10

the defense I'm talking about, that Donald Trump

14:12

didn't have anything to do with this, Michael Cohen

14:14

was acting independently, and that the reason he was

14:16

taking out a home equity loan to pay

14:18

off an adult film as far before the election

14:21

was because he wanted Trump to win so he

14:23

could go to Washington and get a job.

14:25

And that the press... By

14:27

the way, that's true. And

14:30

they elicited testimony, sworn

14:32

testimony later on. I don't

14:34

know if they mentioned the year. That

14:37

is something he said. Michael

14:39

Cohen testified or

14:41

somebody else testified. That's what Michael Cohen

14:44

told me. So why is that? I

14:46

mean, it's just, I understand

14:48

you want to do an analysis,

14:50

but don't ignore evidence that was

14:52

already in this case. Yeah.

14:55

And I believe they go on to read some of

14:57

the transcripts of that testimony later in this clip.

15:00

So let's keep watching and get a job. And

15:02

the defense brings up a piece of

15:04

prosecution evidence, which is a back

15:07

and forth. It is Keith.

15:09

Sorry. This is an

15:11

excerpt from Keith Davidson talking to prosecution,

15:13

saying, quoting Michael Cohen, saying

15:15

something to the effect of Jesus Christ, can

15:18

you effing believe I'm not going to Washington

15:20

after everything that I've done for that effing

15:22

guy? I can't believe I'm not going to

15:25

Washington. I've saved that guy's, but it's a

15:27

family program. So many times you don't even

15:29

know that's supposedly like the evidence. Michael

15:32

Cohen enraged that he's not going to be the attorney general

15:34

of the United States is somehow evidence that Michael Cohen is

15:36

doing this of his own accord. Well,

15:39

by the way, where am I in the

15:41

twilight? I don't know. I mean,

15:43

it's that came from Keith

15:45

Davidson who said that's what

15:48

Michael Cohen told me. And

15:50

she wants to this,

15:53

this so-called reporter or journalist,

15:55

whatever TV personality wants to

15:57

say, I'm, I like the

15:59

fact that he's up

16:01

there saying that this happened, but

16:04

I don't like what he ascribes

16:06

as the real time motivation of

16:08

words. And the way she chuckles

16:11

through reading of testimony from a transcript, like,

16:13

what do you, what is that supposed to,

16:17

what game are you trying to play here? What do

16:19

you think your viewers are, I mean,

16:21

they better be pretty deep into TikTok if

16:23

you think that just chuckling through that is going to change the

16:25

contents of it. Like, I don't know what you're playing at here.

16:29

The whole thing is just mind boggling to

16:32

me. The way it's analyzed, I can't even

16:34

watch, you know, I watch for 45 seconds

16:37

and then I kind of tape it.

16:39

I send it for people who want

16:41

to know. I send it to Gary

16:43

to see if he can find me

16:46

so that it looks better when you

16:48

play it. But it's really hard to

16:50

watch because the analysis is so vacuous

16:52

and so idiotic and doesn't

16:54

bear any resemblance to, I mean,

16:56

and they, and the people don't

16:59

understand what they're saying makes those

17:01

sense internally. And is it consistent? Well, it's funny you

17:03

say 45 seconds because that is exactly

17:05

how much we have left of this clip. So let's watch

17:07

the end of it here. Right, but

17:09

also in that same conversation, Keith Davidson

17:11

testified that there was a comment that

17:13

Michael Cohen said that, you know, and

17:16

I'm not even being reimbursed for this

17:18

payment that I made to Stormy Daniels,

17:20

which Keith Davidson, he did not say

17:23

Stormy Daniels, but Keith Davidson

17:25

testified that he understood it to

17:27

be a reference to the payment

17:29

that Cohen made to Daniels. And

17:32

so even there, there is this,

17:34

you know, idea that there was

17:36

an understanding between Cohen and Trump

17:38

that Cohen would be reimbursed. And

17:40

so we had all of these different

17:42

moments today in which it was showing

17:45

that Trump had knowledge of the Hush

17:47

Money deals. And specifically the Hush Money

17:49

deal with Stormy Daniels, which is what

17:52

forms the kind of poor aspect of

17:54

these charges. Yeah. Just

17:56

completely under, just

17:59

basically. encapsulated what

18:01

reasonable doubt is and

18:03

then it's dismissive that he had

18:05

knowledge. Well you could learn after

18:07

the fact, you could also say

18:09

I didn't I wanted him to

18:11

take care of these you know

18:13

the old expression bimbo eruptions but

18:16

I didn't tell him go take out a

18:18

credit line, I didn't tell him you know

18:20

disguise it when you're billing me, blah blah

18:22

blah because you want to get the money

18:24

back. I mean the whole thing is ludicrous.

18:26

I just thought it's mind-boggling to me that

18:28

this is a criminal case seven months

18:30

out from the election. Yeah and just

18:33

the analysis of it I mean I'll

18:35

give her props for yes-and-ing but then

18:38

it just it seems like they're

18:41

they think that they're saying one thing

18:43

but in reality they're highlighting the exact

18:46

opposite thing. The argument makes absolutely no

18:48

sense. I'd love to see you make

18:50

that argument in a courtroom but you

18:52

can you can tear that apart of

18:54

a limb from limb so to speak.

18:57

Yeah it would be absolutely

18:59

hilarious to watch you sit on the other

19:01

side if somebody tried to do that and

19:03

and have the opportunity to tear it apart

19:05

because that's just bananas.

19:10

Yeah it's you know I like I

19:12

said I think that this would be covered a whole lot

19:14

differently if there actually was TV footage of

19:17

some of this stuff. It's one of

19:19

the reasons I come full circle. I

19:21

used to think it damps it down

19:23

and that that's the smart thing to do.

19:25

I don't think that's the case. I think

19:28

people have to see it. I think they

19:30

have to realize what is actually happening because

19:32

when you get this kind of filter that

19:34

is just even in its

19:36

own 45 second 90 second clip

19:40

is so self-contradictory is so

19:42

ridiculous logically and are in

19:44

persuasively or argumentative that that

19:46

it would be better if

19:49

it was not filtered because

19:51

this is just just

19:53

doesn't even comport with it.

19:56

It doesn't even hang internally the

19:58

logic. Right. And yeah,

20:00

I think, you know, on top of the fact

20:02

that it would change everyone's view if they were

20:04

able to see it, these people wouldn't have to

20:07

vamp for so long. I wonder if it's the

20:09

fact that they have to fill 48 minutes and

20:11

they don't have any footage to run that they're

20:13

just tripping all over themselves because it's just, it's

20:15

absolutely ridiculous. There's three people who

20:17

are seemingly intelligent all sitting there tripping

20:19

over themselves. You've got three highly

20:22

educated, very, you know, Duncan

20:24

is a first line, first

20:27

rate lawyer and

20:29

the correspondent, I don't know, but

20:31

she appears to be highly intelligent,

20:34

articulate and yet

20:36

because the ideology blinds you so

20:39

much, you just don't, you can't

20:41

even see just how internally inconsistent

20:44

the arguments you're making are. Yeah.

20:47

Anna Bauer from a law fire courts

20:49

correspondent was the third correspondent there. I

20:55

wanted to end with a little 30 second

20:58

clip from Saturday Night Live. Do

21:01

you have that handy? I do. Look

21:03

at that. Almost like we planned for this. Yeah,

21:06

I almost like it, right? Let's give

21:08

it all of the college

21:11

protests and we haven't waited

21:13

in yet, but the, I just thought

21:15

that this was a kind of a

21:17

unique take and let's end

21:19

with this, Gary. Yeah, absolutely. I think

21:22

it's just great. You know, it's wonderful.

21:25

Nothing makes me prouder than young people using their voices

21:27

to fight for what they believe in. Wow.

21:29

That's very encouraging. Alphonse, your daughter must feel

21:32

so supported when she's out there. What's

21:34

that now? When

21:38

whose daughter is out there? At

21:40

the protest. No, no, no, no,

21:42

man. You bugging Alexis

21:45

Vanessa Roberts better have her butt in class.

21:50

Let me find out she in one of them damn tents instead

21:52

of the dorm room that I pay for. I

21:55

thought you were in favor of the student

21:57

protest. Brother, man, I am supportive of y'all.

22:00

kids protesting. Not my

22:02

kids. My kids know

22:04

better. Alexis Valencia ain't crazy.

22:08

Well, Alphonse, your daughter attends Columbia. What do

22:10

you think about the students that took over

22:12

Hamilton Hall? That's good

22:14

for y'all's kids. But they ain't mine.

22:16

That's all I'm saying. They ain't my

22:18

kids. You feel me, Ryan? Yes,

22:21

I feel you, Alphonse. I

22:24

think we can end on that, Gary. It's

22:28

four minutes long. That's the cold open from Saturday

22:30

Night Live this weekend. For anyone who

22:32

is just listening, the gentleman's

22:35

wearing a Columbia sweatshirt talking about his daughter. And

22:37

I encourage everyone to go watch the full four

22:39

minutes. I had actually seen it before you sent

22:42

it to me, Mark. And it's very, very

22:44

funny. So go check that

22:46

out. It's definitely a heavy

22:48

subject. And SNL has been, for

22:50

a long time, very skilled

22:52

at turning something serious into something we can

22:55

all laugh at. So go enjoy that and

22:57

enjoy the rest of your Sunday. Mark, happy

22:59

Cinco de Mayo. Enjoy the Miami Grand Prix

23:01

that I'm sure you won't be watching this

23:03

afternoon. And take it easy on the tequila.

23:05

I think that our friend in Vegas is

23:08

probably taking care of it for the whole

23:10

group. Drink for all of us. Thanks,

23:12

Gary. Good to see you. Thanks, Mark.

23:14

You too. Bye-bye. Thanks

23:17

for listening to Reasonable Doubt. Subscribe

23:19

on YouTube at youtube.com/ Reasonable

23:22

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