2:00

reaction to this equipped

2:02

platform. So as

2:05

you approach the year's end and

2:07

think about how best to invest

2:09

the Lord's dollar from your giving,

2:11

we hope that you'll think of

2:13

reasonable faith and send a gift

2:15

toward our ministry. It will be

2:18

doubled and thereby have doubled the

2:20

impact. Thank you so much for

2:22

your consideration. Bill

2:25

and your dialogue with Jordan Peterson

2:28

and Rebecca Goldstein at the University

2:30

of Toronto. You've commended theism to

2:32

Dr. Peterson, especially after

2:34

hearing his thoughts on meaning. He

2:38

seemed to be reluctant and he

2:40

still seems to be reluctant when

2:42

it comes to God as

2:45

seen in this recent interview with Piers Morgan.

2:47

Listen to this. I want to talk to

2:49

you about your new book, We Who Wrestle

2:51

With God. A lot of your fans, there's

2:54

all sorts of Jordan Peterson groups that

2:56

you can join who debate whether

2:58

you really believe in God or not. So let's just

3:01

get it on the table. Do you believe

3:03

in God? I don't think

3:07

that's anybody's business.

3:10

I think it's the most private question you can ask

3:12

someone but then I would say also, what's

3:14

the right response to that? By their fruits

3:16

you will know them. How's that?

3:19

Well let me ask you a different question then. Do

3:22

you think there is a God? I'm

3:26

terrified that there might be, Piers.

3:28

How's that? And you know

3:30

I'm not trying to be a smartass when I'm making

3:32

that comment either. Like they say, it's

3:34

an Old Testament saying I believe that

3:37

the fear of God is the beginning

3:39

of wisdom and that's actually about as

3:42

true a statement as you could manage in such

3:44

a short phrase. And you are the

3:46

most open book of almost anyone I've ever interviewed right

3:48

to the point I asked you if you believe in

3:50

God. I didn't actually know what you were gonna say

3:53

but for some reason you're

3:55

reluctant to say. Why are

3:57

you reluctant? Well okay let's let's let's watch.

4:00

along that well because

4:02

it's not a well-posed

4:05

question. It's too complicated

4:07

an issue to be dealt with like

4:09

that. You step into instant traps just

4:12

by accepting the question. So I'll

4:14

show you what I mean. So the

4:16

first thing I would say is what do you mean by

4:19

believe? Like do

4:21

you think that a statement about the existence

4:23

of God is something like a scientific theory?

4:25

Do you think it's a list of facts?

4:27

Is it a factual question? Does God exist

4:30

or not? Is it a

4:32

factual question like you're asking about whether a cup

4:35

on a table exists or a plate on

4:37

a table of artifact in a room?

4:39

What do you mean by this? What do you mean by believe? I'll

4:42

state my life on the proposition

4:45

that God exists. How's that?

4:47

Well is that an answer? That's the

4:50

right answer. I would ask you, it's my

4:52

supplementary, do you ever pray? Always.

4:56

Who do you pray to? The

5:02

spirit that protects you from hell.

5:06

But that many people would say is God. Hey,

5:11

sounds good to me. And

5:15

by the way, in case you that

5:18

ran past you, his forthcoming book is

5:20

called We Who Wrestle With God. And

5:23

there seems to be a continuing wrestling match

5:25

with him and God, Bill. Plenty of things

5:27

to talk about there. Yes, a lot to

5:29

talk about in that clip. If

5:33

one were cynical, Kevin,

5:35

one might say that

5:37

his caginess and

5:39

coiness about answering the question

5:41

is deliberately

5:43

calculated to promote

5:47

his mysterious public image,

5:49

those to make people even more

5:51

interested in him. If you were

5:54

a public relations agent for

5:56

Jordan Peterson, you would tell him, don't

5:59

you dare answer. You

8:00

can say you believe that God

8:03

exists in the sense that you

8:05

affirm the proposition God exists.

8:08

That's one of your propositional

8:11

beliefs. Or you can

8:13

speak of belief in the sense of trusting

8:15

in a person. Do you believe

8:17

in God? But Piers

8:21

Morgan had already gotten around that

8:23

ambiguity by asking him, does God

8:26

exist? And there

8:28

Peterson just really waffles on

8:30

the question of whether or

8:33

not God actually

8:35

does exist. Now he finally

8:38

says, I stake my

8:40

life on the existence of

8:42

God. Now that sounds

8:45

very powerful and indeed it is

8:47

courageous, I think, to stake your

8:49

life on God's existence. But

8:52

that's not the same as saying that

8:54

you believe that God exists. This became

8:56

very clear to me in studying the

9:00

doctrine of faith in my systematic

9:02

philosophical theology that I'm working on.

9:05

One of the key questions

9:08

in the doctrine of faith is whether

9:11

or not faith entails belief

9:14

that something. And

9:16

there are Christian philosophers who

9:18

want to disassociate

9:21

belief from faith,

9:24

as odd as that sounds. What

9:27

they're trying to do is make

9:29

room for people who are in

9:31

doubt about the existence of God

9:33

but who want to believe in

9:35

God's existence. And so

9:37

there is a certain attitude

9:40

toward belief in God

9:42

called pretense theory.

9:45

That is to say you don't

9:47

believe in God but you

9:49

act as if he

9:52

existed. So you're

9:54

in doubt, you don't have positive

9:56

God belief, but you

9:59

will act as a though there were a

10:01

God. And I don't want to belittle

10:03

that. As I say, that can be

10:06

a very courageous stance, but

10:08

it's certainly not the same as

10:10

believing that God exists. So

10:13

even if Dr.

10:15

Peterson is adopting a kind

10:17

of pretense theoretical approach to

10:20

this question, that's

10:22

still not coming to believe

10:25

that God exists. That's

10:27

just making believe that

10:30

God exists, and perhaps hoping that

10:32

God exists, maybe even fearing

10:35

that God exists as he says. But

10:37

that's not to say that he's a

10:39

theist. I

10:42

might mention Bill as well. If one

10:44

were to listen to that entire interview,

10:47

you would see what Jordan Peterson

10:49

means by hell. He says he prays

10:51

to the one who will save

10:54

him from hell, but he defines

10:56

hell basically as Auschwitz, hell

10:59

on earth. Still

11:01

very vague about the state of

11:04

affairs in the afterlife, the permanent state

11:06

and so forth, biblical teaching, heaven

11:09

and hell. But he says he wants

11:11

to get as far away and get

11:13

everyone as far away from Auschwitz as

11:16

possible. Which is a noble

11:19

aspiration. I think

11:21

as a psychologist, he

11:23

is probably very familiar

11:26

firsthand with the destructive

11:28

effects of sin. I

11:31

think very often we don't

11:33

realize how self-destructive sin

11:36

is. The person who engages in

11:39

immoral behavior and evil

11:41

behavior. Paramount would

11:43

be an example of these Hamas

11:45

terrorists who burned and

11:48

beheaded little babies and tortured

11:52

family members before mothers

11:55

and fathers and children. That's

11:58

sort of evil. is

12:01

not just perpetrated upon

12:03

the victims, it's perpetrated

12:05

upon oneself because one

12:07

becomes oneself a

12:09

twisted, deformed, vile,

12:13

selfish human being. And so I

12:15

think Peterson is right to

12:18

be concerned with the earthly

12:20

or this worldly effects of

12:23

sin, even if again

12:26

that is not the

12:28

ultimate eternal state of

12:31

man when we die. Like

12:34

you said, Pearson Morgan presses

12:36

Jordan Peterson and he

12:38

does so even more in this clip. So

12:41

Peterson discusses some arguments for God. Check

12:43

out this next clip. So

12:45

the first is that's the argument by

12:47

design, that things are so complex and

12:50

sophisticated that that cries out for the

12:52

hypothesis of something like a creator. I'm

12:54

not a big fan of the argument

12:56

by design. I can see its advantages

12:58

but it isn't the primary argument as

13:00

far as I'm concerned. So the

13:03

the Big Bang proponents have a problem because it's

13:05

a tenet of the Big Bang theory that the

13:08

laws of physics themselves break down at the point

13:10

of the singularity and that would be the point

13:12

just before the Big Bang. And when you say

13:14

the laws of physics, the

13:16

existence of space and time even, is unknowable

13:19

prior to the Big Bang, you're basically positing

13:21

a miracle at the beginning of existence. And

13:23

so if you get to have your miracle

13:26

there's no reason the religious types can't have

13:28

theirs. You might argue about what the miracle

13:30

needs to be and I think that's an

13:32

argument that has to be had. I

13:34

don't like the argument by design. I like

13:36

the argument by conscience better. So

13:39

the argument by conscience, which is

13:41

another string of classic theological thought, is

13:43

that something dwells within you that aligns

13:45

you with the spirit of reality. And

13:48

it's the still small voice within that

13:50

was identified first by the Prophet Elijah.

13:53

And it was part of a transformation

13:55

in the religious viewpoint in historical terms

13:58

that moved the notion of God from

14:00

something like Baal, a

14:03

nature god, the god

14:05

of storms and earthquakes,

14:08

of what would you say

14:10

remarkable and awe-inspiring natural phenomena, to

14:12

the voice within that

14:15

can, if you attend to

14:17

it, align you with the structure of reality itself,

14:19

that internal voice being a manifestation

14:21

of God. And I think that's

14:23

an extremely powerful argument. And I

14:25

think it's right. Well

14:28

that's somewhat of a cliffhanger, but Dr.

14:30

Craig has several things to say about

14:32

that excerpt, and we'll pick it up

14:34

next time on Reasonable Faith. One more

14:36

quick reminder, please consider giving to Reasonable

14:38

Faith here at the end of the

14:40

year, and your financial support

14:42

will be doubled if you give now.

14:45

The matching grant campaign ends

14:48

December 31st. Your prayer

14:50

and support are very appreciated. And

14:52

we'll continue part two of this interview with

14:55

Jordan Peterson next time on

14:57

Reasonable Faith with Dr. William Lane

14:59

Craig.