0:08

Bill, we've been watching the demise of

0:10

the new atheist for some time now.

0:13

It doesn't necessarily mean that atheism is

0:15

going away, but there seems to be

0:17

some changes. Justin

0:19

Brierley talks about this in his new book,

0:22

and in this article he says, quoting,

0:24

I knew something had changed when in 2018 I

0:27

received an unexpected email from atheist

0:30

thinker Peter Boghossian. I

0:32

couldn't quite believe what I was reading. At

0:34

the time, Boghossian was a professor of philosophy

0:37

at Portland State University.

0:38

When he joined me for a podcast

0:40

debate on faith in 2014, he

0:43

had been as anti-religious as

0:45

they come. His book,

0:47

A Manual for Creating Atheists,

0:50

was a set of strategies for talking

0:52

religious people out of their beliefs, which he

0:54

claimed were akin to a mental

0:57

delusion. However, four

0:59

years later, when Boghossian responded to

1:01

an invitation to a fresh dialogue, he

1:04

told me that he was no longer participating

1:06

in debates against Christians. Indeed,

1:09

he now felt quite differently about

1:11

people of faith. You might be surprised

1:14

at how much I have in common with you now,

1:16

he wrote. His focus

1:17

had shifted to countering

1:20

a far more pernicious threat.

1:23

Boghossian's change of heart is

1:25

one among many stories. The culture

1:28

wars have shifted the ground in the dialogue

1:31

between Christianity and atheism

1:33

in recent years, end of quote. A

1:36

couple of things to talk about here, Bill. We

1:38

did a podcast several years ago on

1:40

Peter Boghossian dealing with his

1:42

definition, or we should say faulty definition

1:45

of faith, and the street epistemology

1:48

that several of his followers were doing. But

1:51

the pernicious threat Justin mentioned

1:53

is the leftist control

1:56

being forced on universities and colleges.

1:59

several of his colleagues thinks it's insanity

2:03

and are more in line with Christians

2:05

on fighting it. I know,

2:08

Bill, that universities have always been

2:10

accused of being left and liberal, but

2:13

do you think it's particularly vehement

2:15

now? That's what you read in all

2:17

the media, that at

2:20

our university campuses

2:22

today, speech control

2:24

and thought control is so extensive

2:28

that it really is infringing upon

2:31

the civil rights of

2:34

the students and the faculty significantly

2:37

on those campuses. And

2:40

so Justin Briarly, in

2:42

his new book, The Surprising

2:44

Rebirth of Belief in God, is arguing

2:48

that as a result of these cultural

2:51

conflicts that many

2:54

atheists, former atheists, are

2:56

much more sympathetic

2:59

to Christian belief than

3:01

they were in the past because they recognize

3:05

that we are allies in

3:08

the battle for freedom

3:10

of speech and freedom of religion

3:13

and free thinking. Justin's

3:15

show, Unbelievable in the UK,

3:17

was wrapping up in the mid-2000s, about the same

3:20

time our podcast was growing, Bill. You've

3:23

been on his show a couple of times. Justin

3:26

writes about this time, quote, The new

3:28

atheism was gathering steam. It

3:30

was a movement that saw several high-profile

3:33

figures spearhead a newly hostile

3:36

approach to religion. The best-selling

3:39

books of the four horsemen,

3:41

Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Daniel Dennett,

3:44

Christopher Hitchens, painted faith

3:46

as ignorant and dangerous. The

3:49

conversations I hosted in those years were

3:51

primarily combative debates between

3:53

ardent atheists and Christian thinkers, which

3:56

matched the boisterous and

3:59

dismissive attitude.

3:59

of new atheism in

4:02

general."

4:03

Do you ever think about the timing

4:05

of reasonable faith as an organization,

4:08

Bill, and the growth of

4:10

the new atheism? Well, I

4:12

certainly do think about it and

4:15

it pained me to see

4:17

this movement arising

4:20

on my watch, so to speak.

4:23

And it was frustrating. I

4:25

felt helpless to stem the

4:28

tide and I've been

4:30

doing all that I can to try

4:32

to combat this threat.

4:36

And I think

4:39

its decline is not due to

4:42

me, but I think

4:44

to these broader cultural

4:47

forces and currents that

4:49

are now turning against it. And

4:51

this is very gratifying a

4:53

very welcome development. Justin

4:56

continues, quoting, But as the years

4:58

progressed, the conversations changed

5:00

and the atheist and agnostics who appeared on the

5:02

show were keen to distinguish

5:04

themselves from new atheism. I'm

5:07

not a Richard Dawkins type of atheist,

5:09

became a common refrain. Guests

5:12

increasingly seem to share more common ground

5:14

on cultural and social issues, even

5:17

if they didn't share the same faith. Meanwhile,

5:19

the new atheist movement itself began to experience

5:22

an internal meltdown. The

5:24

controversies multiplied. Many of the

5:26

chief voices in the movement fell

5:29

out with each other, resulting in atheist

5:31

conferences being canceled as speakers

5:33

refused to share a stage.

5:36

In 2021, Dawkins himself was stripped of

5:39

his Humanist of the Year Award

5:41

by the American Humanist Association for

5:43

critiquing a transgender ideology,

5:47

something the biologist has doubled down

5:50

on in recent months. It

5:52

seemed that once the new atheist had

5:54

agreed that God didn't exist and religion

5:56

was bad, they couldn't agree on anything

5:59

else. of court. Does

6:01

all this bring back memories of those intense

6:03

times? Oh my goodness, yes Kevin.

6:06

I've debated or been on the same stage

6:08

with all four of those

6:11

four horsemen of the new atheism.

6:13

I shared the stage with Richard Dawkins

6:16

in a six-man debate in

6:18

Mexico City at a conference. I

6:21

was on the stage criticizing

6:24

a paper or responding to

6:26

a paper by Daniel Dennett at the Greer

6:28

Herd Forum at New Orleans Baptist

6:30

Theological Seminary. I had a debate

6:33

with Christopher

6:35

Hitchens at Biola University

6:38

and I also debated Sam Harris

6:42

at the University of Notre Dame. So I've

6:44

had the privilege of crossing

6:47

swords with all of

6:49

these supposed four

6:51

horsemen of the new atheism. But

6:53

the most vociferous, the

6:56

most mean spirit

6:58

of all of them was Lawrence Krauss. We

7:01

did a debate tour in Australia

7:04

in four different cities in

7:07

the country and Krauss

7:10

at that time was going

7:13

through sexual

7:15

harassment charges back

7:18

in the states that eventually

7:21

resulted him in his

7:23

being banned by Arizona

7:26

State University from coming

7:28

on campus. The American Humanist

7:31

Association also stripped him of

7:34

its award of humanist in

7:36

the year just as they did Dawkins because

7:39

of the sexual harassment

7:42

of Krauss of female graduate

7:44

students. His attacks

7:47

on me were personal and vicious.

7:50

It was a really difficult

7:54

time to go

7:56

through. So yes, I remember

7:58

very vividly. what it was

8:00

like debating with these new atheists.

8:03

And Justin says the crux of the matter

8:05

is, quote, having torn down

8:07

the notion of God, new atheism offered

8:10

very little with which to replace it. Science

8:12

and reason alone won't buy you meaning,

8:15

purpose, and value. Apart from

8:17

its internal squabbles, the

8:19

real reason that new atheism stalled

8:21

as a cultural movement was that it

8:23

failed to give people a story to

8:25

live their life by. So people went

8:28

looking for a story elsewhere,

8:30

end of quote. You know, Bill, I

8:33

don't know why anyone would be attracted to

8:35

atheism. But is

8:37

rejecting it because it fails to give

8:39

meaning or a story, is it just

8:42

pure pragmatism? I

8:44

do worry about that, Kevin.

8:47

I think this is what you see in a thinker

8:50

like Jordan Peterson, where

8:53

he will emphasize the

8:55

need to find meaning

8:58

and value and purpose in

9:00

your life, and that this can't

9:03

be found in an atheistic

9:06

philosophy. But for him,

9:08

it's purely pragmatic.

9:11

It's not as though you think

9:13

that these things are really true. It's

9:16

almost a kind of as-if philosophy

9:19

that you live as if God

9:22

existed or as if Christianity

9:25

were true. It's

9:28

been said that if God

9:30

didn't exist, we'd have to invent

9:33

him. You

9:35

remember, Loyil Roo described

9:37

this as the noble lie, that

9:40

in order for society not

9:42

to fall into tyranny or chaos, it

9:46

needs to adopt some noble

9:49

lie to inspire us to live

9:52

beyond self-interest

9:54

and one's

9:58

personal needs.

10:01

And so I do worry about this kind

10:03

of purely pragmatic

10:06

justification of belief because

10:09

it really leads to a sort of

10:11

pretense I think. Justin

10:13

continues in this article, quote, in our

10:15

contemporary culture we see this most

10:18

clearly in the numerous ideologies around

10:20

LGBT, gender, and race

10:23

that have proliferated in recent years. Many

10:26

people live their lives through these stories.

10:29

There is no doubt that a strong sense of justice

10:32

motivates such causes, but

10:34

they often take on a quasi-religious

10:36

significance too. To question

10:39

someone's personal identity is regarded

10:41

as an act of sacrilege. Social

10:44

activism has a very religious

10:46

feeling with its own sacred texts,

10:49

rituals, and symbols. Think of the pride

10:52

flag and its heretics too.

10:55

Think of J.K. Rowling. And

10:57

it's not just the progressive left.

10:59

You'll see the same quasi-religious sentiment

11:02

in conservative and conservative nationalism

11:05

and right-wing conspiracy theories too. I don't

11:08

think that we should be surprised

11:11

that these new forms of religions have arisen.

11:13

G.K. Chesterton has cited

11:16

as saying that when people stop believing in God,

11:18

they don't believe in nothing. They

11:20

become capable of believing in anything.

11:23

To put it another way, people

11:26

don't stop being religious when they lose the Christian

11:28

story. They just become religious

11:31

about different things, end

11:33

of quote. What do you think about Chesterton's

11:35

words? Oh, I think he's absolutely

11:38

right. I have really been shocked

11:40

at the things that people

11:43

will believe rather

11:45

than to accept, for

11:48

example, belief in God. They'll

11:50

believe the universe popped into

11:52

existence uncaused out

11:54

of nothing. Or they'll adopt panpsychism,

11:59

the view that every atomic

12:01

particle has mental

12:04

states associated with it in order to

12:06

be able to explain the origin

12:08

of consciousness or the fine-tuning of

12:10

the universe. Once

12:13

you give up belief in God, it's

12:16

not that you believe in nothing, but as

12:18

Chester says, it just

12:20

opens the door to believing in

12:23

virtually anything. Austin

12:26

continues, quoting, as new atheism faded

12:28

from view, it left behind a lot of secular

12:30

people still looking for intelligent

12:33

answers to life's deepest questions. Indeed,

12:35

a rise of social media and

12:37

the culture wars has also hastened

12:40

the emergence of a meaning crisis

12:43

in today's generation. Despite our

12:45

material comforts and our technological

12:47

advantages, anxiety, depression,

12:49

and mental health problems are

12:52

at an all-time high, especially

12:54

among the younger generation. People

12:56

are desperate for a better story to

12:59

live by. Bill,

13:01

I know that it requires you to be pastoral,

13:04

but I tell you, the reported

13:06

increase in anxiety and depression

13:09

I've been reading about among young

13:11

people is really concerning. Yes.

13:14

What I want to comment on here, Kevin,

13:16

is that this meaning crisis

13:19

that Justin describes was

13:21

predicted by

13:23

Francis Schaeffer back

13:26

in the 1960s. I

13:29

am not a big Francis Schaeffer

13:31

fan, but I must say that Schaeffer

13:33

was truly prescient about

13:36

the way our culture was going. What Schaeffer

13:39

warned was that in a culture

13:42

that is increasingly secular and

13:45

that abandons belief in God, there

13:47

is no longer any objective

13:50

foundation for affirming the

13:53

ultimate value, meaning,

13:56

and purpose in life, and

13:58

that this leads, then, finally, to the end of the world. to

14:01

despair. And Schaeffer

14:03

attempted to show how this line

14:06

of despair cuts across

14:09

every layer of culture

14:13

in art, in music,

14:16

in entertainment, and

14:18

film for example. And

14:21

that certainly has transpired.

14:23

I look back and think

14:25

that Francis Schaeffer was

14:27

truly prophetic in

14:30

the 1960s when he saw

14:33

exactly where this

14:35

kind of secularist mentality

14:37

leads. And now we are bearing the

14:39

bitter fruit of that

14:42

secular philosophy resulting

14:45

in the meaning crisis that Justin

14:47

describes. Next in this article,

14:50

Justin lists prominent names who are not

14:52

professing Christians yet are

14:54

fighting against the same ideologies

14:56

that Christians are fighting against. He

14:59

includes Jordan Peterson, historian

15:01

Tom Holland, and Louise

15:04

Perry. She has done research

15:06

showing that traditional family is

15:08

the only way to positive personal

15:11

and family outcomes. Ben Shapiro

15:13

has been talking about that too. He also

15:15

lists Paul Davies, I would

15:17

add comedian Bill Maher, and Ben

15:21

Shapiro to the list.

15:24

So Bill, can we view this

15:26

alignment with an acknowledgement of

15:28

Christian principles and values as

15:31

evidence for the truth of Christianity? Justin

15:33

thinks so. He writes, it has become

15:36

respectable to take the Christian

15:38

story seriously again. I

15:41

don't think so, Kevin. As

15:44

I indicated earlier, I don't

15:46

think that this serves as any

15:48

evidence for Christianity's truth.

15:52

It just shows how terrible

15:56

the world is, if in fact

15:58

atheism is true, if there is no

16:01

God. Years

16:03

and years ago a woman once said

16:05

to Bertrand Russell that

16:08

your view of the world is

16:10

so terrible and

16:12

he said, Madam, only

16:15

when you've come to realize that

16:17

the world truly is a terrible

16:20

place are you in a position

16:22

to come to terms with life. And

16:25

so I don't think that this is a positive

16:28

evidence for Christianity in

16:30

my apologetic Kevin as you know

16:32

I use this Francis

16:35

Schaeffer esque approach of arguing

16:38

that if God does not

16:41

exist then there is no ultimate value

16:43

meaning or purpose in life as

16:45

a kind of prelude to

16:47

apologetics to awaken the

16:50

apathetic person from

16:53

his lethargy and get

16:55

him to think about these ultimate

16:57

questions about the meaning

17:00

value and purpose of life. When

17:02

we begin to think about

17:05

where atheism leaves

17:07

us in meaninglessness

17:10

and despair and valueless

17:12

then I think that can motivate

17:14

us to go back to square one, begin

17:17

anew and say well wait a minute how do

17:19

I know that God does not exist

17:22

maybe there really is

17:24

a God maybe this is really true

17:26

and it can create a kind of intellectual

17:29

open-mindedness to

17:32

the Christian story that

17:35

has been so wanting in some

17:37

of these new atheist types.

17:40

So I see this as

17:42

a kind of negative apologetic

17:45

not a positive apologetic

17:47

for the truth of the Christian

17:49

faith but as a way

17:52

of awakening people from their

17:54

intellectual stupor and

17:57

getting them to really think about

17:59

these important questions in life. Justin

18:02

concludes, quoting, naturally

18:04

these individual stories, while encouraging,

18:07

don't necessarily mean that a Christian revival

18:09

is just around the corner. The latest surveys

18:12

still show a picture of terminal decline

18:14

in many parts of the Church and the continuing

18:17

rise of those who describe themselves as

18:20

nuns, no religious affiliation.

18:23

However, it's also apparent that new

18:26

atheism failed to make many converts

18:28

to scientific materialism and

18:31

that the nuns continue to encompass

18:33

many spiritual but not religious

18:36

types. That's what they mean by none who

18:38

are looking for a meaningful story to

18:41

be part of. These are

18:43

the conditions under which I believe this tide

18:46

could be turning and the Christian

18:48

story could come rushing back

18:50

in. Perhaps we are indeed

18:52

seeing a turning of the tide, but

18:54

will the Church be ready to receive

18:56

the refugees of the meaning crisis

18:59

washed up on its shore? I pray

19:02

that it will. End of quote. Good

19:04

job Justin. It sounds a lot like

19:06

what you've said for a long time Bill. Yes,

19:09

I think that one of the most

19:12

important ministries of reasonable

19:15

faith is not simply to

19:17

try to encourage refugees

19:20

to come to Christian

19:22

faith from this new atheism, to

19:25

come to Christ,

19:28

but also to train and

19:30

disciple Christians so that

19:32

they are ready to receive these refugees.

19:35

It is very important that we

19:38

understand the meaning

19:40

crisis that they have been going through and

19:43

be able to offer good arguments

19:46

and evidence and to articulate

19:49

an intelligent faith that they

19:51

can come to and find

19:55

meaning, value, and purpose in. So

19:57

one of the most important things that we

19:59

can be doing in addition to evangelization,

20:03

is the training and discipleship

20:06

of Christians to receive

20:08

this influx from

20:12

secular culture. Dr. Craig,

20:14

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