0:00

Hey, rebel leaders. As you can probably tell, I'm

0:02

not Virgie, but you have heard from me before.

0:04

I'm doctor Laurie Santos. I teach a course

0:07

at Yale on the psychology of happiness, and I'm

0:09

an expert on human thinking and decision making.

0:12

I joined Virgie last year for a conversation

0:14

about harmful happiness myths like the idea

0:16

that there's a perfect body out there just for you,

0:18

the kind that contribute to diet culture. If

0:21

you haven't heard that episode yet, you should be sure

0:23

to check it out. Today, I'm joining

0:25

Rebel Eaters Club to share an episode from the

0:27

new season of my podcast, The Happiness

0:29

Lab. On The Happiness Lab, we explore

0:32

all the ways we get our happiness wrong and

0:34

what we can do to really feel better. I'll

0:37

walk you through the latest evidence based strategies

0:39

for improving your mental health, and I'll share

0:41

lots of practical advice for what can really

0:43

bring us more joy. In this episode,

0:45

I chat with author and psychotherapist Andrea

0:48

Walked about strategies we can use

0:50

to fight diet culture messaging and listen

0:52

to what our bodies really need. Now.

0:54

As a fan of this podcast and a rebel eater. You're

0:57

probably pretty committed to fighting diet culture,

0:59

but probably also aware that the start

1:01

of the new year is when we get bombarded with

1:03

ads and resolutions and TikTok

1:06

workouts and so many kinds of messages

1:08

that tell us what we should eat and how we should

1:10

look. And that's why I turned to Andrea.

1:12

She's an expert on how we could ignore all that

1:14

cultural messaging and listen a little

1:16

more effectively to the inner voice telling us

1:18

what our bodies really need. I love this

1:20

episode because Andrea shares lots of practical

1:23

strategies for how we can eat and move in

1:25

ways that are respectable and non restrictive.

1:27

She also talks a lot about how we can learn to

1:29

make peace with the bodies we have. I

1:32

think you'll really like this episode, and if you

1:34

do, you may want to check out other episodes

1:36

of the Happiness Lab. You can find them wherever

1:38

you get your podcasts. Okay, now

1:40

to the episode. The

1:44

first few weeks of January are peak New Year's

1:46

resolution time, and a lot of those resolutions

1:49

involved changing how our bodies look. According

1:52

to one global consumer survey, nearly half

1:54

of people who made New Year's resolutions last

1:56

year wanted to change what they ate and how

1:58

much they exercised, with more than four

2:01

and ten specifically saying that they wanted to

2:03

lose weight. And this time of

2:05

year, there are lots and lots of outside voices

2:07

that are ready to tell us exactly how we

2:09

should fix our bodies. If you look

2:11

at a magazine or your social media feed this

2:13

month, you'll probably get bombarded with

2:15

healthy eating ads claiming to have a scientific

2:18

solution to the perfect beach body, or

2:20

stories of people who successfully toned to their

2:22

butts with the latest bad diets. Every

2:25

January, we're surrounded by concepts like keto

2:28

and pigan and intermitt and fasting and

2:30

belly blasting, And even

2:32

if we know rationally that bellies probably

2:34

aren't supposed to be blasted, it's

2:36

really easy to get swept up by all those

2:38

deafening body shaming voices and

2:41

to think that we're going about something as fundamental

2:43

as feeding ourselves in all the wrong ways.

2:46

But if you think about it, all this body shame

2:49

is kind of weird because we don't

2:51

let outside voices tell us what to do when it comes

2:53

to navigating our other bodily needs, like

2:56

when to go to the bathroom, or whether or not it's

2:58

a good idea to put on a sweater if we're feeling old.

3:01

When it comes to these physical requirements,

3:03

we don't feel the need to look to social media suggestions

3:06

or magazine ads. We just listen

3:08

to our bodies in order to figure out what they

3:10

need to feel good. Our

3:13

guest Today, author's psychotherapist and

3:15

Happiness Loud regular Andrea Walkder,

3:17

argues that it's time to start thinking about feeding

3:20

ourselves in the same intuitive way that we

3:22

think about other bodily needs. Andrea

3:25

herself struggled for many years with disordered

3:27

eating. She dieted drastically,

3:29

restricting her intake of food, but also

3:31

rioted the phrase she uses to describe the

3:34

eating binges she went on when she wasn't dieting.

3:36

It was a rollercoaster ride that took her decades

3:39

to get off. Andrea

3:41

has seen that taking time to listen to your

3:43

wise, inner hunger voice can help you avoid

3:45

the shame that comes from outside diet advice.

3:48

In fact, she's loving proof that with some inner

3:50

work, it's possible to not even hear all

3:52

those loud diet voices. Truth

3:54

be told, I don't keep up

3:56

on those anymore. I used to know every

3:58

single diet that because I was like on them, And

4:01

now I don't even keep up because there's so many

4:03

I know a lot of people are doing the intermitt and fasting,

4:06

and a lot of people carrying scales to the

4:08

restaurant. I mean, there's just so many things. But so

4:10

many of us have been hypnotized

4:13

and programmed to think

4:15

that we need to be a certain body size

4:18

or weight, and that if we attain

4:20

that certain magical number

4:22

or size, we will be happy, we will

4:24

be healthy, and we will even be

4:26

more lovable. Never mind if that size

4:28

is even natural for us. But once

4:31

we're programmed and we buy

4:33

into the programming, which is hard not to buy

4:35

into it. But once we're programmed,

4:37

it causes us to cut ourselves

4:39

off from our natural hunger

4:42

and fullness and satisfaction and

4:44

cravings. We have this innate

4:46

knowing inside of us. We're not

4:48

born thinking foods are good or bad,

4:51

or body sizes are good or bad. We

4:53

get programmed. So, like you say, with the bathroom,

4:55

I have to go to the bathroom, I go. There's no shame

4:58

involved, there's no pressure about it.

5:00

Well, maybe bladder pressure if I'm cold, I

5:02

put on a sweater. It's not about my self esteem,

5:04

you know. But because there's so much

5:06

pressure and programming around

5:09

body sizes, perfectionism,

5:11

fat phobia, my okayness

5:13

being based on my size, then it causes

5:16

us to split ourselves off from this natural

5:19

mechanism that tells us when, what, and

5:21

how much to eat. It must be really frustrating

5:23

at the start of the new year, where you just see article

5:26

after article and you know, Google search after

5:28

Google search about all these new weird

5:30

diets when like you know, you've seen, the answer

5:32

is out there, it should be inside it

5:34

is. It's it's sad to me because

5:37

we're so seduced. And I would say to

5:39

everybody listening, be prepared to

5:41

be seduced by the new fad diets

5:43

the old fad diets. And you know,

5:45

we don't click on every ad that pops up

5:47

on our screens. We don't buy every item

5:50

that pops up. It's like to have the not

5:52

just courage, but the willingness to believe

5:55

that if diets worked,

5:57

they would have worked by now. The diet industry

5:59

is the only industry I know of that continues

6:02

to grow despite a huge failure

6:04

rate. But people still believe in them.

6:07

And so yes, when I hear people going

6:09

on some new diet and they're even like high in

6:11

the beginning from it, it's hard not

6:13

to intervene. But I only intervened

6:15

with people who come to me for intervening,

6:18

don't go out and get them. So yeah, people

6:20

are so seduced by diets.

6:23

And I would say there's a very

6:25

small percentage of people that

6:28

they work for. I haven't met any of them, but I'm

6:30

guessing there might be a few. But for most

6:32

people, they cause obsession, they

6:35

cause feeling unwell and

6:37

malnourished, and then they cause riotous

6:40

rebellion, if not full blown eating disorders.

6:42

And you're talking about this in the abstract, but this

6:44

is something that you know personally, Like you were

6:47

under this spell a lot yourself, right, completely,

6:50

like in a trance from this spell

6:52

restricting, obsessing and or

6:54

binging. I was caught in it for

6:56

decades. And what was that like for your

6:59

psychology? Right? Because it's one thing to kind of it's

7:01

stressful for how you eat, but it's another

7:03

thing because it really affects your flourishing too. It

7:05

affects everything. It affected my

7:07

thinking. I was so focused on

7:10

body size and food, not only mine,

7:12

but others comparing and worrying

7:14

about it, stressing about what I was going

7:16

to eat or not eat, and then of course being

7:18

so unsatisfied and hungry that I

7:20

was out of control so often. So I

7:23

call it the diet riot roller coaster. And

7:25

I was riding that ride

7:27

for a long long time. And so,

7:30

what was your turning point? Because this this idea

7:32

of turning to the internal signals we have

7:34

when it comes to food. You know, it can be really

7:36

scary. You know, how did you find your

7:39

way back to your own inner food voice. Well,

7:41

I struggle for a really long time

7:44

with an eating disorder. Some people have lesser

7:46

severe disordered eating. And I'd gotten

7:48

help for a really long time on those

7:50

issues, and I've made a lot of progress, but

7:52

I still had that leftover

7:56

diet mentality and body dissatisfaction.

7:58

And there was just this moment I'll never

8:01

forget it. There was this moment where

8:03

I decided I wanted

8:05

peace of mind and wellness

8:07

more than I wanted to be a certain number

8:09

or a certain size. I was so

8:12

tired of restrictive eating

8:14

and chaotic eating, and I

8:16

took this vow with myself it

8:19

was like, Andrea, do you take Andrea? I took

8:21

this vow with myself that when

8:23

I approach a food choice, whether it's

8:25

walking into the kitchen, opening the refrigerator,

8:28

opening a menu at a restaurant, I

8:30

am going to tune into the part of

8:32

me that is wise and loving

8:35

and just that knows. And prior

8:37

to that vow, I had like a

8:39

committee going every time I approached a food

8:41

choice. Is that the dieter or should I eat that? Is

8:44

that the rioter? Is? Is that over feelings?

8:46

It was just like this whole big deal. Once

8:48

I was trying to heal these parts

8:51

of myself, but once I had this moment,

8:53

it was like, I'm just going straight to the love. I'm

8:55

just tired of the battle, and I'll

8:57

never forget it. I went to the store for the

8:59

first time in my adult life, and I just

9:01

bought what sounded good to me. I went

9:04

home and it was the first meal I can remember

9:06

that I ate a non restrictive,

9:09

delicious, nutritious meal, and

9:11

I was totally satisfied.

9:14

I mean, that sounds amazing, right to kind

9:16

of get off this roller coaster. But I

9:18

think you know, for many of us, and you know even for

9:20

you back in the day, Like I think, it's really scary because

9:22

there's so much information out there telling us,

9:25

hey, this is the right way to eat or

9:27

that's a bad way to eat. You know that this is

9:29

so out there in the culture. It was scary

9:32

because I had only known two modes.

9:34

I had only known, like caged animal

9:36

around food or animal breaking out

9:38

of the cage. I really didn't have any reason to trust

9:40

myself because I hadn't been very

9:42

trustworthy with food. But I just

9:45

knew, and I kept reminding

9:47

myself that I wanted peace of mind,

9:49

and I didn't know what would happen to my body

9:52

if I let go of that crazy roller

9:54

coaster restricting and obsessing

9:56

and binging. But I just decided

9:59

I was willing to find out and willing

10:01

to be kind to myself. You

10:04

know, you engage in this process after a

10:06

lot of recovery work. But these days this practice

10:09

has become a little bit more popular in

10:11

the field. Talk about this idea

10:13

of intuitive eating. Yeah, intuitive

10:15

eating is it's like a paradigm.

10:18

It's a way of approaching wellness

10:20

and food choices

10:23

and taking care of yourself that

10:25

really encourages going inside

10:28

for your cues rather than outside

10:30

from all the rules, and it really

10:32

is a commitment. It's quite adover

10:34

for people that are used to going outside to

10:37

get their ideas of how to eat, how to move,

10:39

what to feel. It originated

10:42

with these two authors that are dietitians

10:44

and they wrote the book Intuitive Eating

10:46

in the nineties and it's still quite applicable

10:49

today. We need it more than ever. So it's

10:51

really about giving yourself permission,

10:54

but also being kind to yourself and

10:57

feeding Rather the old paradigm has been

10:59

that we're told what we're supposed to

11:01

look like, and then we try to eat an

11:03

exercise in a way that makes us look

11:05

that way. But this paradigm is

11:08

about feeding yourself and treating

11:10

yourself respectfully and allowing

11:12

your body to unfold into the body

11:14

that nature intended for you. I mean,

11:16

it sounds in some ways so simple,

11:19

but you know it's it's so counterintuitive

11:21

given so many of the other outside forces.

11:23

I think, you know, another paradigm that's really

11:26

connected to the intuitive eating approach is also

11:28

this approach that's known as health at Every Size.

11:30

You know what's that and how is it related to this idea

11:33

of intuitive eating? Health at Every Size?

11:35

Or they call it HAZE for short, is a

11:38

long needed movement to end weight

11:40

discrimination and to help

11:43

people shift the assumption that

11:45

all fat people are unhealthy.

11:48

It's just simply not true. And both

11:50

intuitive eating and health at every

11:52

Size promote practicing

11:54

self care, self respect, feeding

11:57

yourself non restrictively and respectfully

12:00

for the sake of well being, rather than

12:02

for the sake of trying to be a certain size

12:04

that might not even be meant for you. You know,

12:06

you engage in this process after, you

12:08

know, a lot of recovery work for eating and things

12:11

like that. But these days this practice has become

12:13

a little bit more popular in the field,

12:15

right and you know, so talk about this idea

12:17

of intuitive eating like a little bit

12:19

of the history of this kind of program.

12:22

In practice, it's about

12:24

becoming aware of diet

12:27

mentality, being willing to acknowledge

12:30

or even consider that diets don't

12:32

work, that they're ineffective. If they

12:35

worked, you would have been happily

12:37

or after your first one, and I'm guessing

12:39

most listeners have been on more than one. Increasing

12:42

your awareness of your

12:44

body's needs, just like you're aware

12:46

when you're thirsty gold have to go to the bathroom.

12:49

Starting to get to know when am I hungry?

12:52

What are those signals? What sounds

12:54

delicious to me? What does my body

12:56

need tuning into your body's signals

12:58

around movement instead, I should

13:01

exercise or I'm not getting off the

13:03

couch? What does my body want

13:05

to do? And it takes a while to kind

13:07

of peel off the layers, you

13:09

know, and and get through the brambles

13:12

of diet mentality to really

13:14

hear that voice. It's it's a soft

13:17

voice inside this knowing, loving

13:19

wisdom, and these loud voices

13:21

of diet mentality, body hatred,

13:24

exercise rules can sometimes

13:26

often sometimes slash all

13:28

the time, drown out. That's soft

13:31

inner knowing. Another problem with hearing those soft

13:33

inner voices is that we have to actually be

13:35

paying attention to them in our lives, right

13:37

And I feel like there's there's the noise of all these

13:40

external signals of what we should be eating, and you

13:42

know, our own inner diet mentality, but

13:44

there's also just like the noise of our lives,

13:46

you know, Like you know, there's probably some days that I don't

13:49

notice I'm hungry because I'm like running

13:51

around and it sometimes it just feels easier

13:53

to eat by the clock or make a rule

13:55

about what I'm going to eat because it's it's hard in

13:57

a busy lifestyle to really pay attention to

13:59

what your body needs. I mean, is this something that

14:01

a lot of people who start intuitive eating seem to

14:03

go through. Absolutely, it's

14:05

like a symbol. If you're struggling

14:07

with feeding yourself or paying attention to yourself,

14:10

look at your whole life, not just the food.

14:12

Food issues are about so many more things,

14:14

because this is really a holistic

14:17

approach. So it's almost like

14:19

the body is the child, and

14:22

the wise mind and the respectful

14:24

actions are the parents. And so yes,

14:27

if we're busy, if we're lost on screens,

14:29

if we're not paying attention, if

14:31

we're overworked, how can we

14:33

take care of ourselves? But I would think

14:36

most people, if you have a child with a super

14:38

busy day school, after schools,

14:40

things and sports, you would

14:42

pack that child food. So it's being willing

14:45

to take that time for ourselves. And

14:47

so let's kind of go even deeper

14:49

because I think, you know, as we start to think about intuitive

14:52

eating, I think a lot of people have even

14:54

more specific questions about you know, what are

14:56

the kinds of things that you know count as part

14:58

of intuitive eating and not so many

15:00

people, for example, think about

15:02

the possibility of you know, a particular way

15:04

of eating. You know, let's say you're vegetarian or vegan,

15:07

or let's say you want to give up a particular food

15:09

group, Like can that be done in the

15:11

context of intuitive eating or is that always

15:14

restrictive? No? I definitely

15:16

think it depends on the motives. If

15:19

somebody is cutting out a certain

15:21

food because ethically that's important

15:23

to them, or because their body has an allergic

15:26

response, it doesn't they don't feel well when they

15:28

eat that food, it's respectful not

15:30

to eat that food. But if somebody's cutting

15:32

out of food because they think

15:34

it's too high in calories or fat, or

15:36

they think it's not going to make them get to their goals,

15:39

then it's very likely to cause

15:42

obsession and preoccupation about that food

15:44

and or rebellious eating on

15:46

that food or every other possible food

15:49

around that food. What about other forms

15:51

of kind of paying attention external

15:53

cues, right, you know, like for example, like is

15:55

weighing yourself, you know, consistent with intuitive

15:58

eating? Is kind of you know, tracking other kinds

16:00

of nutritional values, you know, is that consistent

16:02

with intuitive eating? You know, I imagine

16:04

it's kind of the same thing I'm hearing. It might be

16:06

like the motivation, the reasons why

16:09

you're doing those kinds of tracking, and the

16:11

effects they have. So

16:13

if someone struggles with their eating

16:15

and their body image, weighing is

16:17

husually not helpful and actually often

16:20

triggering, because intuitive eating

16:22

is about getting your answers from inside.

16:25

Am I hungry? Am I

16:27

tired? What do I need? Do I need

16:29

fresh air? Do I want a sandwich? Do I want

16:31

to rest? And a scale can't tell

16:33

us that, and if anything, oftentimes

16:36

people will get triggered by the number and it will

16:38

lead them to restrict and or rebel

16:40

from the feelings. So I

16:42

think for someone who has body

16:45

image issues and or disordered

16:47

eating or an eating disorder, I don't recommend

16:49

scales, if anything, write down on a

16:51

piece of paper, listen to your body,

16:54

sweetheart, or and then tape it on top

16:56

of the scale. Those apps, those tracking

16:58

apps, My response would be similar that if

17:00

someone doesn't have issues or a

17:02

history of body shame, dieting,

17:05

riotous eating, those

17:07

tracking apps can be fun.

17:10

My husband has one and he enjoys,

17:12

you know, looking at his steps or whatever.

17:14

The heap tracks. I don't know, But

17:17

an app can't tell me when I want to take a walk

17:19

or when I want to lay down. That's up

17:21

to me to know. So it really depends

17:23

on what the app

17:26

or the group or the scale what

17:28

they're aligned with. And the

17:30

values here are about self care,

17:33

not having a certain food that you should or

17:35

shouldn't eat unless it's a loving motive,

17:37

and not having a certain size that you should

17:40

or shouldn't be. And so when we think about

17:42

some of the benefits that come from

17:44

eating this way, you know, it's a different kind

17:46

of benefit than we usually think about

17:48

with this diet mentality. Right, you know a lot

17:50

of these you know, Keto, paleo,

17:53

you know, whatever the new thing is, like,

17:55

the benefit that comes from that is supposed to be

17:57

a certain body size, you know, a certain number on the

17:59

scale. You know, Intuitive eating doesn't

18:01

come with that benefit. What are the benefits

18:03

that come from eating this way? Yeah, that's a

18:05

good question. There are a lot of benefits,

18:08

and the authors of intuitive Eating have

18:11

hundreds of studies on their website. I'm

18:13

not filly hated with them, but if somebody cares to

18:15

look into that, benefits are increased

18:18

energy and clarity. Obviously, if you're

18:20

not starving yourself or stuffing yourself regularly,

18:22

decrease in disordered eating and

18:25

eating disorders, improved well

18:27

being, improved happiness, improved

18:30

cholesterol levels. There's really

18:32

a lot of benefits that have been shown

18:34

for people who intuitively ate for

18:36

an ongoing basis. I'm glad you mentioned

18:38

this idea of, you know, things like reduce cholesterol

18:41

too, because I think, you know, when you're so used

18:43

to the diet mentality, you assume that if

18:45

you just ate what you wanted to eat,

18:47

it would lead to these negative consequences

18:50

in terms of your health. I mean, I think obviously, you know,

18:52

people think in terms of the negative consequences

18:54

for their body weight and the particular body weight

18:56

they might be aspiring to be, or something like

18:58

that. I think we also assume that if we

19:00

just let ourselves eat the way we'd want

19:02

to eat, you know, it'd be hot fudge Sundays,

19:05

you know, like every day, and you know, you know, ruin

19:07

your cholesterol. You know your numbers would go

19:09

go badly. But but that's not actually what people

19:11

see when they commit to eating with love

19:14

for themselves and really paying careful attention

19:16

to what this inner voice is saying right

19:18

over time, because sometimes

19:21

there's that rebellious response.

19:24

If someone's been dieting for years

19:27

and now they're going to give themselves permission to

19:29

eat, there can be this you

19:31

know, riotous

19:33

reacting. But to me personally,

19:36

that wasn't loving either. And when I

19:38

was in my early years of healing, I

19:41

even read books and worked

19:43

with people that said, well, in order

19:45

to get over this diet riot mentality, you

19:47

have to just buy all your forbidden foods,

19:50

load up your house, and eat as

19:52

much of them as you want to get sick of them.

19:55

And that just that didn't work for me. I

19:57

ate till I got sick from them, not of them,

20:00

and so that was not my path. My path was

20:02

just to find what was loving

20:04

and respectful and to deal with the unmet

20:06

needs and underlying issues that dare

20:09

I say, fed into my eating

20:11

issues. So far,

20:13

we've heard the intuitive eating. This practice

20:15

of listening to what our bodies really need comes

20:17

with a host of benefits for our bodies

20:20

and physical health, but also for our happiness

20:22

levels. But intuitive eating

20:24

can also be tough to do, at least at first.

20:27

So when we get back from the break, we'll talk more

20:29

about specific strategies we can use

20:31

to stop focusing on inches or calories

20:33

or pounds and move towards a more intuitive

20:36

relationship with food. The Happiness

20:38

Lab will be right back. Psychotherapist

20:51

author and insight Time or app teacher Andrea

20:53

Walkder has helped thousands of students find

20:56

their wise, inner eating voice. So

20:58

I was interested in what she recommends for beginners.

21:00

What are the first steps we should take when it comes

21:03

to developing a more intuitive relationship

21:05

with food. Well, one of the first things that

21:07

I do in my course is really try to diminish

21:09

shame, because if somebody has

21:11

a problematic relationship with food

21:14

and their body, they usually feel ashamed

21:16

about it. So to try to help people

21:18

see that they're not bad,

21:21

that their body and they're eating are

21:23

the kind of the innocent recipients

21:26

of faulty and insane programming,

21:29

because then people eat over the shame and they restrict

21:31

over the shame, and so that's to

21:33

me, one of the first steps is really seeing

21:35

that we've been duped and we've been

21:37

taught that there's a certain body size

21:40

that's okay and acceptable and that

21:42

will bring you happily ever after this,

21:44

and it's not true. Then we

21:47

dive into how to deal with your feelings,

21:49

how to identify your feelings, how

21:51

to become aware of your thoughts,

21:53

and if they're not kind, to

21:55

consider challenging them, upgrading

21:58

them. We update our phones all the time,

22:00

updating our thinking. And it's really all

22:02

about awareness, right, I mean, that's the name

22:04

of the game. And the willingness, Like I took

22:06

that vow back then, I wanted peace

22:09

of mind and wellness more

22:11

than I wanted to try to control my body. So

22:13

for people to continually look

22:15

at their values. Is this working for me

22:18

spending so much time and energy

22:20

trying to control my eating and my body size

22:22

and or rebelling from the control, or

22:24

do I want to find another way? It does

22:27

take work, it does take practice, it does

22:29

take patience, but it's a whole,

22:31

huge doover from what most

22:33

people are doing. And so let's say you want

22:36

to engage with this practice of intuitive eating,

22:38

but you're like not really feeling that intuitive

22:40

or you know, like you know, you're little worried,

22:43

you're on the baby steps you know to doing it. You

22:45

know, you sit down at a restaurant, right, you know,

22:47

look at a menu, you know, any tips

22:49

for what to listen to to kind of make that choice.

22:52

Well, I for myself when I was in

22:54

the trenches, I would ask myself these questions.

22:56

I think we did a whole podcast on one of them. I

22:58

love these questions because it is so hard

23:01

when you're immersed in diet mentality, it

23:03

kind of it can drown out that inner knowing.

23:05

So I found when I would ask

23:07

myself, how would I feed someone

23:10

I love who doesn't diet or riot?

23:12

Because if you're thinking of feeding someone else, there's

23:14

not the shame there. There's just kind of wisdom

23:16

and oh, I would feed them this or this, or I know

23:19

they love this or they like this. So how

23:21

would you feed someone else you

23:23

love who doesn't diet or riot? What

23:26

feels the most loving for your body

23:28

right now? It feels the most respectful for your

23:30

body right now. It's not respectful

23:32

to restrict and eat things you don't

23:34

even like, and it's not respectful

23:36

to stuff ourselves. It's just to tune

23:39

into the kind voice inside.

23:41

I also like to help

23:43

people distinguish between

23:45

the different internal voices that might be going

23:48

on if they're sitting at a restaurant. But know

23:50

that if you keep practicing it won't be

23:52

this much work. It gets more natural. So

23:55

for most people there's an inner diet

23:57

or voice, I should eat that, I should order

24:00

that. Oh I shouldn't have that. That's bad. Oh

24:02

my friend is having that. I shouldn't have that inner

24:05

dieter. And then for a

24:07

lot of people there's the riot or from

24:09

the dieter, and that's you know, I want twenty

24:12

or I want it all, or forget it. I'll have

24:14

it when all, when I get home. And then there's

24:16

this body wisdom, so

24:18

to begin to ask themselves, try

24:21

to connect with the different parts till

24:23

you get to what feels loving, respectful,

24:25

non restrictive, delicious, What does

24:28

my body truly want? And

24:30

I think the act of doing that requires a

24:32

certain kind of mindful attention

24:35

in these moments of decision. Right, my

24:37

guess is that you're not going to get to that wise

24:40

inner voice that can really tell you what you want

24:42

if you're checking your email while you're

24:44

pulling up the menu or showing up to this

24:46

meal, like in a completely frantic space

24:48

like it takes a lot of intention

24:51

and attention to kind of figure

24:53

this out, as does everything. I mean, if we

24:55

wanted to learn French. We wouldn't just go to class

24:57

and be on our phones and expect to be fluent into

25:00

lessons. Right, anything we want to learn, it

25:02

requires desire to learn

25:04

it the solution of what to learn, what

25:06

to do instead of what we've been doing, and practice,

25:09

practice, practice and patience.

25:12

Of course, when you say that, it makes absolute sense,

25:14

like this is how we do anything important in life.

25:16

But I think that's the contrast from what our culture

25:18

is telling us. You know, our culture is telling us

25:20

like, oh, if you just do intermittent fasting, everything

25:23

will be perfect, or just follow Quito, Like,

25:26

is there a sense in which people can get worried

25:28

about intuitive eating because it is

25:30

committing to this long process

25:32

and this mindful process of paying attention.

25:34

It's not a quick fix in the way that other

25:37

kinds of external plans seem to be. That's

25:40

true, And I would say, look at your

25:42

history. If diets were effective

25:44

the first or maybe even second, I'll be

25:46

generous, the second or diet

25:48

you went on would have done the

25:50

trick. You'd be at the body size that

25:53

you think would make you happy, You'd feel great,

25:55

You're eating would be pleasurable and

25:57

nourishing, and not a big problem, you'd

26:00

be happy with your body. It's like the

26:02

diets promise us all of these

26:04

things, and people still believe them because

26:06

they're so seductive, and they

26:09

don't come true, they don't pan out. So it's questioning

26:11

the diet rather than yourself.

26:15

Another challenge people face is that if you've

26:17

really been on this kind of diet mentality,

26:19

diet right roller coaster for a long time, it

26:22

can be hard to start right. I think

26:24

there's this real worry that, you know, if

26:27

you really listen to what you wanted, you

26:29

would be out of control, right, you

26:31

know, And so how do you kind of overcome this

26:33

sort of shame and guilt that comes up,

26:36

especially for people who've had a real struggle

26:39

with eating history for a long time. Well,

26:41

I think it's being willing to consider

26:43

that even though you're eating has

26:45

been problematic, it's not the

26:48

problem, and that the problems

26:50

are deeper, and so to

26:53

be willing to question

26:55

the programming around body

26:58

sizes, perfection eating,

27:01

perfectionistic looks, fat

27:03

phobia, diet mentality,

27:06

to begin to question those programs

27:09

the same way we question other social

27:11

issues. We take a stand against social issues

27:13

all the time, or for social issues

27:15

all the time. So what's happened

27:17

for so many people is they get bombarded

27:20

with the diet mentality and body

27:22

perfectionism and fat phobia,

27:25

and then they kind of side with the programming

27:27

and turn against their poor bodies. But what

27:29

we're talking about here is siding with your

27:31

body and say no to those programs

27:34

and decide that you want more peace. It

27:37

will take time. It will take work. So

27:39

is dieting and rioting. I mean that that takes time too.

27:42

Hating your body, that takes a lot of time. And

27:44

then I think another word that people have when they hear

27:46

about intuitive eating. I've heard friends of mine

27:48

mentioned this is like, especially

27:50

if you have a history of diets,

27:53

you know, it can feel easy to maybe

27:55

turn intuitive eating into its own

27:57

diet, right like now I must eat intuitive,

27:59

I must find inner voice. And I mean, do

28:01

you see that with some of your students, Like how

28:03

do you prevent intuitive eating from becoming

28:06

just another thing that we should

28:08

be doing in our minds? I definitely

28:11

see that, and we talk about that in the course classroom.

28:14

Often if someone has been

28:16

dieting or and or have diet mentality,

28:18

you don't have to be on a diet by the way to

28:20

have diet mentality. It's like I say, in

28:23

action or just reacting to food

28:25

as good or bad. So that

28:27

diet mentality is so tricky

28:29

and sticky, It's like it can be so

28:31

subtle and come into even this new way

28:34

of being with food. So I say to people,

28:36

just keep an eye out for it. Keep an eye out

28:38

for that perfectionism. I blew

28:41

it. I have to start all over. I shouldn't

28:43

have that, I should be a certain size,

28:45

Just to kind of keep an eye out for the diet mentality

28:48

statements that feel familiar and

28:50

know that when you're learning something new, of

28:53

course, it's challenging at first. It takes

28:55

practice, and just to keep renewing

28:58

your vows that we want

29:00

peace here if somebody wants that. That's the

29:02

only reason someone comes to my course is because they're

29:05

tired of battling with food and their

29:07

body. So renewing that commitment

29:09

again and again. Oh that's the reason

29:11

I'm here, not to control my weight

29:14

and not to continue on

29:16

this diet track. And I think it sounds

29:18

like also that that takes a lot of inner

29:20

listening, right. You need to notice the like

29:22

subtle judginess that's there or

29:25

the subtle riotiness when you've kind of

29:27

given yourself permission and I think

29:29

in some sense, like you know, notice it without

29:31

judgment, right, without then keeping more shame

29:33

onto yourself, because that's not going to help the process,

29:35

right, beating yourself up? About beating yourself up?

29:37

Yeah, not helpful? Yeah, absolutely

29:40

noticing being aware And it doesn't have to

29:42

be perfect. Intuitive eating diets

29:44

are about perfection. This is like not about

29:46

perfection. It's just about continuing

29:49

to be willing to look

29:51

inside, to be awake.

29:54

We can't really learn anything if we're not awake.

29:56

So it does definitely take being

29:58

aware and being willing and renewing

30:01

your commitment to why you're doing this. You've

30:03

been using these practices for a long time and you've

30:05

seen the benefits you know, in your own students,

30:08

like you know, how can this really change

30:10

our relationship with food in our bodies?

30:13

It brings freedom. There is

30:15

so much more free time if you're

30:17

not obsessing on your food or your body. It brings

30:19

a feeling of wellness. It doesn't mean that we don't

30:21

struggle with other things or get sick from other

30:24

reasons, but it brings

30:26

this sense of liberation that there's nothing

30:28

to memorize, there's nothing to calculate.

30:31

I remember, I just would have to work so hard

30:33

to kind of keep track of what I ate and how

30:35

much should I be eating now? And what time

30:37

is it now. It's just the answers

30:39

are inside. It's so simple. It's just like simple,

30:42

but not easy. One place inside,

30:44

same place. I know if I'm thirsty or hungry

30:46

or tired or have to go to the bathroom. But

30:48

it does take a lot of unlearning. So

30:51

yes, it is so liberating and freeing.

30:53

And that's what I hear from people often. I hear

30:55

from people that have been dieting and rioting

30:58

for decades and now

31:00

they're feeling freer, and

31:02

then a lot of grief comes up, like

31:05

that they wasted so much time

31:07

obsessing on food and their body

31:10

and to just have some freedom

31:12

where you tune inside, you eat what you

31:14

and your body love, and like you

31:16

stop when you're satisfied and comfortably

31:19

full, and you deal with your feelings

31:21

in other ways. And it's kind of ironic

31:24

because I feel like, you know, people when they go

31:26

into the diet mentality, you know

31:28

they're willing to learn, you know, some elaborate

31:31

point system. They're willing to learn. You know,

31:33

how many carbs like you know, slice

31:35

of pepperoni has they're willing to learn and

31:37

put lots of time into some new workout. You

31:40

know. Intuitive eating kind of is the same,

31:42

like if you just put in the time and listen,

31:44

you'll get this benefit that won't

31:47

have the blowback later one hundred

31:49

percent? And how much I wait, and how many fat rams

31:51

were in a you know cookie? And what? Yeah,

31:53

exactly the other day, I had

31:55

bought some cookies a couple of weeks

31:58

ago from a bakery that my husband and I

32:00

love, and I ate a few when I got

32:02

home, and then I put them in a tough aware, and

32:06

about a week or so later, he said, I'm

32:09

starting to finish up these cookies. Do you

32:11

want to get in on any before they're gone? And

32:13

I had completely forgotten about them,

32:15

and I thought, there you go. I mean,

32:18

I would have been possessed by

32:20

them eating them all. On the way home, told myself,

32:22

I can't have any cookies. And I had

32:24

a very difficult relationship in the

32:26

past, but just that I could forget

32:28

about them, enjoy them when I had them, and

32:30

then was not possessed by them, I say

32:33

no more. I think part of it is that we get really seduced

32:36

by, you know, the hope of a

32:38

new diet, and you know, maybe in some cases

32:40

even the kind of you know, veneer of science that

32:42

comes with some of these diets that are out there. But

32:44

I think there's also like a deep skepticism

32:47

of our own inner voice. You know. I've

32:49

heard people who hear about intuitive eating

32:51

will say, yeah, other people have

32:53

an inner voice when it comes to food, but not me,

32:56

Like I'm always going to be this ravenous

32:58

pit that's riotous all the time time. I

33:00

mean, do you get that in your students at people who just

33:02

simply don't trust that the inner voice is in

33:04

there that they'll find it right.

33:07

But we've been brainwashed

33:09

to believe that a certain body size will

33:11

bring us happiness, health and forever

33:13

afterness of everything, And so that

33:16

brainwashing is thick. So it takes

33:18

a lot of washing our brains of

33:20

those beliefs, those programs,

33:22

they're so deep for so

33:25

many people because if you look at it,

33:27

well, if someone says to themselves, I've been dieting

33:29

on January first for the last however

33:32

many years, and then it

33:34

ends up I end up failing

33:36

the diet thinking I'm the failure. I

33:39

end up blowing it, I end up rebelliously

33:42

eating, I end up hating myself. How

33:44

many years in a row have I done that? And now I'm going

33:46

to try it again. But it's

33:48

not your fault. The diet industry,

33:50

the fitness industry, the media,

33:52

they got us right where they want us, So

33:55

it's really taking a stand against

33:57

those messages instead of taking a stand

33:59

against your poor body. I

34:01

hope all my listeners can start following Andrea's

34:03

advice and commit to shutting out

34:05

those outside diet voices and listening

34:07

to what your body truly needs in the new year. And

34:10

if you want to learn more, you should check out some

34:12

of Andrea's courses on the insight timer app,

34:15

including my favorite, making Peace with

34:17

the Body You Live in. Next

34:19

week, we'll tackle ways to listen to another quiet

34:22

voice that often gets drowned out in the midst

34:24

of all our new year's plans and goals. It's

34:27

the voice that tells us that we'd probably feel better

34:29

if we could be a little less critical of ourselves.

34:32

We'll meet a psychologist who thinks we should commit

34:34

to a new workout, one that exercises

34:36

are positive self talk muscles, and

34:38

that doing so can help us be a little kinder

34:40

to ourselves in the New Year. We'll

34:43

see just how to do that in the next special

34:45

New Year's Season episode of The Happiness Lab

34:47

with Me Doctor Laurie Sanders. The

34:54

Happiness Lab is co written by Ryan Dilley

34:56

and is produced by Ryan Dilley and Courtney

34:58

Guerino. The show was mastered by

35:00

Evan Viola and our original music was

35:03

composed by Zachary Silver. Special

35:05

thanks to Shane Beard, Greta Kone, Nicole

35:07

Morano, Morgan Ratner, Maggie Taylor,

35:10

Jacob Weisberg, my agent, Ben Davis,

35:12

and the rest of the Pushkin team. The Happiness

35:14

Lab is brought to you by Pushkin Industries and

35:16

by Me, Doctor Laurie Santos.

35:25

That was a preview of The Happiness Lab hosted

35:27

by Me Doctor Laurie Santos. You can

35:29

find other episodes of The Happiness Lab wherever

35:31

you get your podcasts.