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this is recode media peter kafka

0:31

that's me i hope you're well i hope

0:33

a hope you're dodging covert i hope of kobe

0:35

and finally came for you that it's easy

0:38

and passes quickly

0:41

i keep saying that happening anyway

0:45

my guess is tony fidel many of you know

0:47

was the guy who helped build the ipod know the

0:49

iphone we also know as

0:51

the guy who founded the nest the smart home company

0:53

sold to google for three billion dollars tony's

0:55

got a new book out called build its part memoir

0:58

apart instruction manual people who want to do

1:00

cool things like running company

1:03

when all over the place because twenty fidel was all

1:05

over the place is got lots of opinions so it's fun to talk to

1:07

him but , try to focus a bit on things

1:09

he learned that might help you the listener

1:11

in your career even if you're not going to build

1:13

an ipod or three billion dollar company

1:16

a should note that i talked to tony before

1:18

apple announced it was finally going to kill off the kill bought

1:21

the thing you help build which explains why

1:23

didn't ask about they would

1:25

have meant that i'm i'm reasonably

1:27

get it as i would ask really obvious question

1:31

welcome to thank you thanks peters always

1:33

great talking year and i'm glad to be here thanks for coming

1:35

up this is a fun book it is part

1:37

instruction manual part memoir

1:40

i'm gathering you don't need book advances

1:43

or royalties to royalties to your mortgage

1:45

so why write this book now

1:47

was what what are you trying to do well

1:51

people have been bugging me from federal

1:53

fifteen years to write a book write a book write

1:55

a book in i just

1:57

didn't feel right bike i didn't wanna write a auto

1:59

by i the or some kind of tell all

2:01

or whatever else and a nice like wins

2:03

the right time and about

2:05

three years ago i woke up in

2:07

i said i'm so lucky to

2:09

be here now how

2:12

do they get here and i thought about all that and they said

2:14

for the people on the way and i

2:16

had mentors

2:19

i'd real mentors who for no

2:21

monetary game decide you invest in me or

2:23

my ideas are things and help me along

2:25

the way they're different ones over different period

2:27

time and sizes site thinking

2:30

about each of them and most of them die

2:33

like i say i'm not getting any younger though

2:36

i think maybe it's time for me to be a mentor

2:38

like i'm doing everyday at the future shape yeah i

2:40

should mention the future shape is your your investment

2:42

vehicle slash holding company we

2:44

call ourselves mentors with money and we invest

2:46

our money and our time with

2:48

the company's we invest and we don't have outside we

2:52

don't have lps with none of that stuff so

2:54

where were very much about being on the side

2:56

of the entrepreneurs it has been mildly synagogue

2:58

in our says marketing for future shape for

3:00

entrepreneurs are looking for someone to work

3:02

with that raise your hands antonio

3:05

has happened during they probably know you are

3:07

i'm it's an instructional it's really kind of multiple

3:09

instruction manuals there's a life advice for

3:12

young people just starting out there

3:14

is advisor people who are running the company

3:16

who are running a product group with an

3:18

organization rise you maginnis

3:21

multiple constituencies you're trying to address or i

3:23

took seriously the design of this product

3:26

like product like any other product who were the audiences

3:29

and wrote a draft press release to

3:31

make sure i like this is going from high schoolers

3:34

tell retirees and everyone in between

3:36

and making sure that we're addressing each

3:38

of those segments because either

3:40

you're older and you can remember what it was like

3:42

to be younger you're younger to see what it's gonna be

3:44

like when you're older see can start to live

3:46

in each person's shoes are in different time

3:49

i am susan different timelines see

3:51

can start to get a feel for what it might look

3:53

like as you go through your career their stuff here

3:55

it's about you're getting outta college in this

3:57

is the kind of stuff you should spend your time on your twenties

3:59

and as as the was about this is why should hire in house

4:01

lawyers right

4:03

Right? When you get right? Even before

4:05

you get sued exactly what I wanted.

4:07

Like, SEALS or star people to be able to

4:09

enter Pinterest to read it. Read

4:11

about those kids coming about out of high school or

4:13

college and remember what it like and

4:15

say, oh, that's what they care about. I

4:17

got to sure I tell her what we're doing to

4:19

attract those people, so you can at

4:22

it as a younger person. If

4:24

you're a younger person or you can look at it as an older

4:26

person, as a young person, write editorials

4:28

a little bit, like you can hop around, you

4:30

can pick up a a chapter can go back and forth.

4:33

a there's a bunch of times there were like see this

4:35

in it's it's it's got something underlined like this

4:37

is really supposed to be online the says she gets

4:40

his legs and i should go over to this wikipedia

4:42

entry the book guys the a bullet that

4:44

you'll have that evacuate book is absolutely but

4:46

it was meant to be an encyclopedia of mentorship

4:49

he was supposed to be tiny in trieste of

4:51

have lots of things somewhat related

4:53

we you know in in context but not definitely

4:56

it's linearly told but we

4:58

worked on it for a deal of

5:00

in skin i michael ryder see

5:03

and i worked on it for the format

5:05

the format months and we struggled to

5:07

figure out the right blend of getting

5:10

just enough context be able to tell stories

5:12

but also getting the right amount of advice

5:14

and tools though you know

5:17

he always had these kind of balances

5:19

and it took a while to to get into

5:21

to sing song hop around pick some of the advice

5:24

that i do and some a memoirs some of the anecdotes

5:26

you talk about but one obvious one is

5:28

the importance of storytelling you worked

5:30

directly with steve jobs for many years he is

5:32

the quintessential entrepreneurs

5:34

storyteller kind of obvious

5:37

why that is integral to his success in apple's

5:39

success and sense steve jobs there's

5:41

just a whole generation model generations

5:43

of especially tech leaders trying to a

5:46

pen right

5:47

parents onstage presentation none

5:49

of them are remotely is good it is

5:51

him any but you're not trying

5:54

to stand on stage and unveil your product

5:56

like steve jobs as you're still understand the importance

5:58

of storytelling but it's

6:00

something you can learn or is it just an

6:02

innate skill like an actor has

6:04

an innate skill and me more good onscreen

6:07

and other people are not can you make yourself

6:09

a good storytelling

6:11

you know there's telling the story and there's

6:13

creating the story okay maybe

6:15

not everyone can tell a good story but

6:18

a lot of people can learn how to create

6:20

the story and build it look i

6:22

a product story is very much like a movie

6:25

you don't wait to build the script that the and you build

6:27

the script you build the image of what you're trying to

6:29

do really have a great vision before

6:31

you go into production of that movie is

6:34

a menu tweak it along the way as you see

6:36

new new things that's the same thing with the

6:38

prado

6:39

You can be a story till you can create the

6:41

a I actually read Story

6:44

by Robert McKee. I don't know if you but

6:46

you know, it's a really famous book for how

6:48

to tell of a one time with anyone who was going to

6:50

go to Hollywood and write a script you would do it. Have to this

6:52

book or see. See this guy deliver

6:54

a live. Exactly. And so I

6:56

devoured that book when i was after

6:59

the general magic disaster of how

7:01

to tell a and so you

7:03

can learn that, you can absolutely learn

7:05

the skill. Now, the

7:06

production of telling it, can

7:09

be very different whether it's in in video

7:11

form audio form in print what

7:13

have you and so that's where you have all kinds of marketers

7:16

to help you do that but you can absolutely

7:18

get much better story tight at least understand

7:20

the fundamentals so that you can ask

7:22

the questions are people who might be helping you doing the storytelling

7:25

to or creating the story to make sure

7:27

we're pulling out those components and and

7:30

making sure it all sings and hinges

7:32

together and this is both

7:34

when you actually have a thing you're selling

7:36

a product you want someone to buy

7:38

but also investors

7:40

talent anyone right needs to be part

7:42

you new video the tell a story a story

7:44

as well why this thing is important why they should be

7:47

on board absolutely you have to get people engaged

7:49

in people would you know the way we transfer

7:51

knowledge in the best ways to stories this

7:53

idea of sort of creating the this

7:56

you know the thing is gonna look like you start

7:58

with that and kind of work back where leads

8:01

me to this other actor he brought about nast

8:03

which started off as a initially smart

8:05

thermostat him whole suite of is more don't come

8:08

on on products and he said we built

8:10

the packaging first created

8:13

these boxes and we spent all this time

8:15

talking about what was going to be on the boxes

8:17

what they would look like what they would tell the customer

8:20

and that seems almost counterintuitive like

8:22

that would be the thing you do last once you've built the

8:24

on right thing price and if you start

8:27

with sort of the marketing and event like that

8:29

seems like it the recipe for disaster

8:31

you get a bill you going to create this magical

8:33

idea of a thing and not be able to deliver on it's

8:36

so what does the point of creating those boxes

8:38

spending time on typefaces

8:40

and art design be for nothing exists

8:42

well first it was the one of the company

8:44

the be one of the company you're

8:46

you're going to create the product which you have to create

8:49

the customer journey

8:50

the customer journey is everything from when they

8:52

first learned about your or at how they

8:54

learn about your company or product the first time

8:57

how they just how they are how they get

8:59

into the the details of it how they try

9:01

it how they buy it how they it

9:04

you you to do you to

9:06

a or of

9:10

so can also about

9:13

a try to complete

9:15

the script at the beginning of the movie before

9:17

they start so they have a folds that's

9:19

the same thing which is creating the city i wouldn't start with

9:21

the trailer a me maybe we'd start with the trail if you wanted

9:23

to sell it to an investor or something but you wouldn't say

9:25

it's imagine what the trailer for this movie

9:28

is gonna be like when it's fiction that's

9:30

a different thing when it's reality

9:32

when it's something that's a non fiction

9:34

or something like that you have to deliver

9:36

on the promised that you're told so sir

9:39

when there's the story and then there's the things you're delivering

9:41

the has to deliver to what that

9:43

stories setting up the expectations

9:46

of so you have decreed both the same

9:48

time too many times when you see is people

9:50

create a product and may say marketing now

9:52

tell the story yes and they want to tell is fabulous

9:55

story but the product doesn't deliver the

9:57

have to build both especially when it's a v one

10:00

company a brand image how

10:02

you speak to the customer how you want

10:04

a project yourself as well as what

10:06

the product does and what it can deliver i know

10:08

a lot of homelessness by guess or in the marketing world

10:10

and i'm sure there wasn't any like that would be great i

10:12

would love this fantasy world where where

10:14

i'm brought in from the very beginning about how this

10:16

thing is going to work but normally they make

10:19

a thing and roll it out to me and say sally what

10:21

would that tip that's a typical way and that's the

10:23

wrong way

10:24

the wrong way of doing it any idea how

10:26

his you are that marketing person you go and

10:28

stone infidel was pretty good says i should be

10:30

if i should be here at the be going okay so

10:33

there's a difference and there's a chapter on this

10:36

the difference between marketing and marketing

10:38

communications and product

10:40

market product marketing is

10:42

the voice of the customer the glues

10:44

everything together they're the ones they're looking

10:47

for the customer point of view they're the ones

10:49

going to the story doesn't work this does

10:51

you know these things don't play so

10:53

you need to have that person who

10:56

hi laden accentuate my

10:58

marketing needs to do and deliver

11:01

so the product marketing person just

11:03

like a product designer just like an engineer

11:05

what have you stare all part of that

11:08

initial id asia away

11:11

that product to be able to to

11:13

build the story around it so this relates to

11:15

the story about the nest screwdriver

11:17

and i've got that off as i never bought a nest

11:20

and twenty one point i am the had

11:22

a

11:24

eating guy and of work on something like well i said you

11:26

don't think about getting one is oh don't do

11:28

thou cars don't do that really

11:30

what acquire other terrible for you should

11:32

do is buy a honeywell and and , i

11:34

read this book and like i've realized exactly why he

11:36

said that is very funny his car methods

11:38

explain explain a story of the screwdriver

11:41

it's it's the lgbt discriminate looks

11:43

like and yes i witnessed one

11:45

of the biggest ways the we all had was

11:48

all thermostats more or less were

11:50

installed by professionals at the time

11:52

professionals and quotes ship and they

11:54

would come in and they put whatever is on the wall and

11:56

they wouldn't teach you about it be like turn it up or down

11:58

sit but you didn't know anything about their arcane so

12:02

they don't involve wiring in the have to put

12:04

a hole in the wall and wiring all kinds of things

12:06

and so it's it can be complicated

12:08

because no one ever try to make it simpler so

12:11

we were really worried about that so along the customer

12:13

journey we made sure that we were thinking

12:16

about not just the product as

12:18

it was install it when it was insane when

12:20

it after was installed but before because

12:22

we wanted to make sure that the friction

12:25

in our product most

12:27

people for or at least has some set

12:29

of people who could install it themselves would

12:31

be removed so that would they didn't

12:33

have to go through the guy like you were just talking

12:35

by saying no you don't want a nest because

12:37

they're spiff some other way or whatever so

12:40

the whole goal was to make sure they can make it easy

12:43

to install anybody could make it

12:45

easier store and make sure we have the tools inside

12:47

the box so they could do that so we custom

12:49

design his career we didn't take any screwdriver

12:52

we custom designed a special one

12:54

with a nest feel as well

12:56

as well and included customs screws

12:59

seat any ten different types of screws depending on the

13:01

environment the made once group and you got

13:03

to this and we get interrupted be before even

13:05

got to the she tested you sent these things

13:07

out and that is here please install please nasty

13:10

how long it takes and it took twice as long as

13:12

you imagined and then you are able to realize out because

13:14

people didn't they were spending time looking for the

13:16

screwdrivers knew what that was one of the things

13:18

they didn't is there is just so many details but

13:20

yes the screwdrivers one of them and i said

13:23

we need to make sure that in the box name is name is

13:25

three dollars or whatever it was cost and

13:27

as our fifties de ella e i read a

13:29

book for a dollar fifty like a lot of

13:31

later on but it was like three that when the first

13:33

one was hundred hours and that's the multiplier

13:36

to terms with that cause of the product and that's a big part

13:38

of the junk your and they're like everyone has a screwdriver

13:40

and their thing and i was like no wait a it's

13:42

about the thoughtfulness it's about that are

13:44

box experience when they go they thought of

13:47

everything they put it all in there and

13:49

you have that magical take away like this is a

13:51

different brand right then

13:54

like when it's gone that

13:57

that tool will sit in their kitchen

13:59

junk drawer every day is they'll see the

14:01

nest logo and the remember that i installed

14:03

that thermostat on the wall i had a great time

14:06

i am i was i was able to do it when i didn't

14:08

think i could and i i'm

14:10

using nest as a tool air

14:12

you know whenever i needed it and i said daddy's

14:15

up marketing statement for us it's as

14:17

it is a marketing expenses and away

14:20

and so each revision of the nest they came out

14:22

people

14:23

kill the screwdriver kill a screwdriver cost

14:25

us money i'm like no

14:27

our brand it's how we represent

14:30

our products and what we think to users why

14:32

should new users not get

14:34

the same great expanse like the does

14:36

today as the new users we had last

14:39

year the year before and so it's it takes

14:41

those kinds of decisions that are not just

14:43

financially motivated to really

14:45

understand what it is you're trying

14:47

to how a graph to

14:50

that could have given him he could have that his here's

14:52

your black allen wrench like you get from ikea

14:54

or even palatine which is a two thousand dollar

14:56

exercise machine they just give you a couple allen

14:58

wrenches and say good luck right

15:01

you could do that some and lot of as

15:03

you say like companies do that we thought

15:05

about it differently we wanted to say it's wow

15:07

these guys really think differently so

15:09

i want to talk about how you got to the

15:11

idea of nest to begin with because

15:14

some stuff like the i pod sort

15:16

of a straight line that the product that

15:18

were bad versions of i pods that existed

15:21

you could there was a walkman which was a good

15:23

version but an earlier aeration

15:25

you could see why people would want a better

15:27

version of doesn't think and

15:29

why consumer if you said you can have can thousand

15:32

songs in your pockets they would like that

15:35

i remember when nest came out of this is for apple

15:37

nerds who like tone down by

15:40

anything associated with apple what

15:42

what was your insight as had people want

15:44

to install their own thermostat

15:47

so

15:50

nest was born out of the frustration

15:53

that i had going to our tahoe

15:55

home and i couldn't regulate

15:57

the temperature of from afar i can either waste energy

16:00

when i wasn't in a at the house

16:02

because we're the only there on the weekends or it could waste energy

16:04

to keep it warm when i'm not

16:06

there or i had to suffer for twenty eight my

16:08

wife's suffer for twenty four hours while the house

16:11

warmed up while we got there and

16:13

our first night was just bitter cold so

16:15

if i was like this doesn't make any sense

16:17

in this day and eight how can we not have these kinds

16:19

of products be better than i could dial

16:22

up with a phone line or something so i try to hack

16:24

that stuff together didn't happen the east

16:26

was really hard to make work and over

16:28

a series of eight ten years no

16:30

one had innovated yet you the i phone came

16:32

out no one had innovated yet so it's like i'm

16:34

going to just

16:35

the older build my own and that was the

16:37

whole impetus for that now the

16:39

but that seems like a guy with a taco

16:42

house has house has builds for in

16:44

a semi them the for sonus as came out there

16:46

are people who were building custom homes

16:48

and normally they bring in a navy guy who would charge

16:50

and one hundred thousand dollar my guy and this was

16:52

ten thousand dollars so it made sense

16:55

but for a limited market a people right

16:57

and so what happened was i said saying i

16:59

could probably do one of these mike implacable

17:01

when these are i'd understand the partner

17:04

then my wife and i we went

17:06

around the world on out on a year

17:09

and have journey and we lived in different houses with

17:11

are two young kids then and i

17:13

saw em free singer has depending

17:15

no matter what continent i had was in

17:17

in the type of house or type of apartments

17:20

they all had the same problems with the same products

17:22

no one is innovative there was no love around

17:24

it i was like the world has this

17:26

pro then when you dig deeper no

17:29

one like their thermostats they were controlling

17:31

half of the energy spend in your house per

17:34

year and there

17:36

you don't even know how to use them as reducing

17:39

if you could save seven hundred thousand

17:41

dollars a year on energy costs because it did the right

17:44

thing maybe you'll spend more on

17:46

the thermostat maybe you'll love the thermostat and

17:48

so it was all about creating a new

17:50

products for a new way of thinking because

17:53

consumers didn't have choice the

17:56

got the they took

17:58

with that hpc and star game the

18:01

are recommended to him which was using one or two options

18:04

when you can have customer choice

18:07

that's where i wanted to go with let's show them

18:09

there's a better product and get around that h b

18:11

a c professional market and get

18:13

the market moving in a new direction that could save

18:15

energy it looked good and

18:17

it could save you a lot of money so to on

18:20

a bit how do you the

18:22

tony who the to

18:25

and the a and a but

18:29

he to vs a

18:32

thing can a of want

18:37

you know there's a that we

18:39

know there's a market the man versus i think

18:42

there is okay first

18:44

we i think we can all agree most homes

18:46

have thermostats and i'm so there's a lotta homes

18:48

around the world so first it wasn't

18:50

a question of whether or not there was a market

18:53

there was absolutely a markets the up people

18:55

using it were didn't have any voice the

18:57

customers and kind of weren't aware that it was a thing they get

18:59

bought right exactly didn't know that so

19:01

that was one thing and so when i started

19:03

talking to people about the

19:05

idea in secret that i trusted

19:08

mrs what's steve jobs did his wealth

19:10

way start talking to people smart people who i

19:12

trusted about this and said this is the way i

19:14

see the world this is what i see the problems in

19:16

this and they start going yes you're right

19:19

i didn't consider it that way but you're right

19:22

that's when i knew i was on to something

19:24

and that's when it became bigger and you know

19:26

bigger and i decided to move ahead and

19:28

and and pull in matt and build the

19:30

company you'd go at this question a bunch

19:32

of different times in your book you got at

19:34

apple's the job anecdotes to about a

19:37

starts working on the i phone he

19:39

is convinced that that we should get rid of the

19:41

keyboard which if you had a smartphone at the time yet blackberries

19:44

everyone use the keyboard still mr i

19:47

never use of butter and

19:49

is no is no a nonstarter were absolute not

19:51

doing it as much as on reasons but also i just don't

19:54

wanna in everyone's telling him iran iraq

19:56

iran he's eventually proven rights

19:58

but there's another version the different

20:00

story but you guys come up with the ipod

20:03

it is modestly successful but it's limited

20:05

to mac owners and you guys are all pushing

20:08

on likes it was has to be available to window

20:10

so read the rest of the world can

20:12

use it and he is fiercely resisted to that

20:14

turns out he was wrong what

20:17

are those in you tell those two annika sort of in the same

20:20

chapter what what are we supposed to draw from that

20:22

because you could go either way well in

20:24

the case of the ipod

20:26

the ipod was a peripheral right

20:29

to a computer so we

20:31

were all like sure we only have so

20:33

much time to make it work on windows to

20:36

that would have taken more times we wanted to rush

20:38

this thing out as fast as possible so

20:40

it worked with the max and at

20:42

you know it's decent over my dead body will

20:44

it ever worked with anything else will guess what the

20:47

data started to come in and ipod

20:49

was about getting more people into

20:51

the the apple fold right

20:54

but that wasn't the case with premise

20:56

was this will get people to buy max because the like

20:58

be i exactly you you you

21:00

will have to buy a mac because you want the i

21:02

pod so bad but then that turned the ipod into

21:05

ads two thousand dollars plus a three

21:07

hundred dollar ipod right and that it

21:09

didn't work at we had to see

21:11

the data to go steve this isn't

21:13

working the way you want your gut said this

21:15

but now there is a mountain of data sanger

21:18

yes right who are got my guts

21:20

i even started a skunk works team to

21:22

bring it to windows that we didn't tell

21:24

me because we knew how much he he

21:27

hated it he didn't want them ideas but then

21:29

at some point you rational

21:31

you know and not emotional thinking came

21:33

into it and then we're like okay and data

21:35

driven decisions and we like okay we're going to

21:37

give that a try whereas in and

21:40

it didn't change the fundamental usage

21:43

of the ipod okay

21:45

where's in the i phone that was a fundamental

21:48

usage difference at the beginning and

21:50

you had to really say what was going

21:52

on either one thing that you

21:55

know what people don't realize is we were trying

21:57

to make to doyle

22:01

input method work for the phone that

22:03

was the ipod plus found it had it

22:05

had and ahead tactile idiotic

22:07

with though click wheel right we could have

22:09

put maybe extra buttons or we could try different things

22:11

to make input work on that but

22:14

we were always running up and this was the other problem

22:16

that we had we had video had video at the time

22:18

the had to physical wheels and we wish we had a full

22:20

screen on it so we're working on virtual

22:23

click wheels on it on a single touch

22:25

touch screen i pod that was

22:27

a full screen that would have that

22:29

so we were already had this constrained

22:31

by a hardware input and

22:34

another one which was virtual input for a full

22:36

face display and we could weigh

22:38

those off each other but a bookcase you have a charismatic

22:41

powerful really good

22:43

leaders hang around the decision maker here

22:45

yes

22:46

there's a bunch of people tell me i'm wrong i'm i'm going to ignore

22:48

them and be and then we're going to proceed

22:51

and then and the other case there's a bunch of all tommy

22:53

i'm wrong ignore them and eventually i'm

22:55

gonna rahm gonna

22:57

acquiesce program going to see the light and

22:59

is that just as simple as sometimes you get

23:01

it right and you're right and sometimes you get

23:04

it wrong and you just need to be proven wrong no

23:06

because in the case of the keyboard the

23:09

i for

23:11

each of us didn't state or opinions

23:14

you couldn't you know you couldn't go one on one with opinion

23:16

was steve it was his opinion over years he's always

23:19

going to win which you had to do is present questions

23:21

and i said here are my worries this

23:23

worry that were a touch input accuracy

23:26

it's force feedback or any kind

23:28

of feedback whatsoever on

23:30

accuracy it's just you go down the list

23:32

of all these technical details then

23:35

there were marketing details there were different

23:37

things so what we did over a course

23:39

of weeks was work through those details

23:42

to see which ones were really real

23:44

and which ones were imagined or

23:46

which ones could be optimized out or risk

23:49

mitigated so it was of course

23:51

of probably four to six weeks where we

23:53

went through each of these things to see it get better

23:55

and better and better and then we were

23:57

able to make a much more competent decisions

23:59

because the risk mitigated but

24:01

he still could come on said

24:04

whenever you guys could have made whatever argument you will you

24:06

wanted to make against it he

24:08

could have said we're going forward with forward with

24:10

is that this is this is the i phone

24:13

and it's there's an alternate reality

24:15

where people say i really like keyboards i'm not

24:17

buying the i write an end so he was

24:20

it was because

24:21

the fact that the keyboard was

24:24

not static when you use

24:26

it blackberry keyboard was

24:28

very static sometimes you need

24:30

to cooper sometimes you didn't and blackberries

24:32

well about text messaging

24:35

i phone was something totally different let

24:37

me give you a counter argument to that so

24:40

we all argued with him about a

24:42

plastic cover for the screen

24:44

on the ice

24:46

you need to plan to carry camp last on the cover nuclear

24:48

program they were like oh my god this is our first

24:50

cell phone if it's breaking all attempts and so

24:52

see acquiesced

24:55

we won that argument until

24:57

after we showed it to the world and

24:59

he started showing people and he actually had in his

25:01

bike and we had in our pockets and we started say

25:03

seeing some find scratches like we started seeing

25:05

on the backs of i pods when they were stainless

25:08

but this was the face and he goes

25:10

there's no way this is going to kill

25:13

our products this is after he'd demoed

25:15

it henri demoed it on step before

25:17

it was released he says we're actually were to go on the glass

25:19

we told the story in our land of the giants book right

25:22

exactly and you guys managed to pull

25:24

it off right in so but outside of

25:26

a crazy thing for the see year ago we

25:29

are changing the basic manufacturing

25:31

of this thing that we've already shown and design because

25:33

we get the design tolerances and everything

25:35

changes when you go from glass or plastic we'd

25:39

we understood it like we all rationalize

25:42

it and we thought that was the best decision instead got

25:44

on board he didn't use he's like okay

25:46

i get it but then when we all saw the reality

25:49

of he decreed it but

25:51

then we all believed it as well it wasn't just

25:53

like a weed green beret in said are

25:55

we don't want to do this but we did it now we all

25:57

got on board and did it said the i

25:59

phone

26:00

was not a huge hit out of

26:02

the gate was too expensive it took

26:04

it around the wrong business model from business

26:06

model it didn't make phone calls

26:08

couldn't keep a phone call how kinds of problems

26:11

ah the ipod was popular among people

26:13

who had macintosh's

26:15

eventually those things took off and rame

26:18

right category

26:20

company defining culture defining products

26:23

there's other stuff at apple came out with the

26:25

total flop sweat are getting never got that

26:27

earth paying

26:29

the social network there's a me mobile

26:31

me mobile me there's an apple

26:34

boombox speaker said i finally

26:36

the cuba as a server

26:39

as both an apple employee but beyond that

26:41

how do you tell when your product

26:44

is dead no one wants

26:46

it there's nothing here versus we have

26:48

something here we don't have

26:50

the fit right yep but if we keep plugging

26:52

away

26:53

we can get it because if you keep plugging away at something it's

26:55

dad you're just wasting time and energy so how

26:57

do you you've you've rolled this thing out

27:00

it's not what you wanted and

27:02

you need to determine whether you should have abandoned

27:04

it completely or keep iterating okay

27:08

you have a first you have to understand

27:10

let me give the case of the server

27:13

the case of the apple server that came out the

27:15

same time as the ipod actually to claim with the

27:17

server was resolved apple server was an apple

27:19

several apple decided well we have all the technology

27:22

bits and bytes to be able to create

27:24

a server so why do we make an apple server

27:26

for all of the creative professionals

27:28

out there doing video or or graphic

27:30

design or whatever so that to get have a work

27:33

you know a works there were stationed

27:35

can all talk to a central location and

27:37

back it up and everything so apple's like what we

27:39

know how to make we can make servers that's my

27:41

heart we did

27:43

that what we didn't understand

27:46

because it was really a mac vs pc

27:49

discussion at that time we

27:52

could make the product the we

27:54

couldn't sell the price because

27:57

it is a very different thing to be a beat

27:59

a be sales bunny versus a btc

28:02

company apple was so ingrained

28:04

it be to see that be the be

28:06

was a second or third order thing

28:08

if anything right we sell to consumers

28:10

not the businesses that it would actually and and

28:13

businesses need a whole different way of how

28:15

you sell how you update

28:17

the types of software they need the type of customer

28:19

service they need the type of installation

28:22

they need all of those things we weren't set

28:24

up for that we would have to change the

28:26

whole structure of the company and

28:28

there's a there's a chapter all about this you have to

28:30

know who your customers we could only have one so

28:34

that was a failure not because

28:36

of a technology problem because

28:38

we didn't have the right cultural norm

28:40

sales channels to get it to

28:43

those people in the way that they needed that

28:45

seems like a difficult but also simple

28:48

lesson to have learnt great like we made

28:50

a thing that we can't sell voters we made a

28:52

thing that

28:53

that we made the out the high five speakers

28:56

for the consumer they're not buying

28:58

them right do we know whether this is the thing

29:00

that people fundamentally want sir

29:03

or whether we should just abandoned us so

29:06

okay we've noticed and the reason

29:08

why the hi fi came out was weeks saw

29:11

that lots of people are hooking them up to their stereos

29:13

and everything said why use old world stairs

29:15

when you can do this because this is the whole home theater

29:18

it will take their ipod employ get in like it

29:20

in a hyper hi fi was

29:23

the right price if you look today there's

29:25

ipa or not i pod decks for i phone docks

29:28

and and that dogs with bluetooth speakers

29:30

there are two thousand three thousand dollars is crazy

29:32

now writes that was

29:34

a victim of two things one is it

29:37

took a lot longer to bring out costs

29:40

were too high because we over engineered it was kind

29:42

of like the cube well to well

29:44

over the engineered and by the time

29:46

it hit the feature set

29:48

wasn't what it should have been so

29:50

that was just at a problem

29:53

at all kinds of things coming together the

29:55

wrong time the other thing is with

29:57

apple's realize and you'll see this in the apple

29:59

product analog today was

30:02

why should we be doing accessories

30:05

we have a small team a small set

30:07

of creatives and all these these kinds of things

30:10

we need invest in the things that a really big

30:13

don't always have to do all those small

30:15

products to also take

30:17

leave those for developers to do morales are

30:19

third parties so we decided

30:22

we're going to exit that market because

30:24

we had other things we want to do like the i phone

30:26

and that's because we it's precious resources

30:28

engineering manufacturing really have to have to spend

30:30

all those resources

30:33

create the thing we did you could have brought

30:35

up all those objections in advance you

30:37

didn't mean that that's the thing rolls out right

30:39

we know what will we couldn't do it in advance because

30:42

we didn't know what you're getting ourselves totally into

30:44

and it was the was a it was became

30:47

long because of the design especially

30:50

the mechanical in id design he was

30:52

over design just like the g for cube

30:55

and but we didn't know that

30:57

at the beginning because we didn't try

30:59

it the first time it's in the book it's

31:01

do fail learn we had a do it

31:03

to understand where we're headed we

31:05

shipped it anyways and then we said

31:08

our priorities have changed especially cause it was in

31:10

light of the i phone so he just said let's drop

31:12

it and then the whole universe we

31:14

i bet you if we didn't have the i phone we

31:16

would have been at it and we would have refinery

31:18

would have done the next version next hours and rights just

31:20

like the home pod many right there with

31:22

home pod and others on pod many and

31:24

on pods dead with over done

31:28

and they're like oh no this is where the market isn't that's

31:30

what we need to do as a brief side

31:32

note the era you were an was after

31:34

steve jobs came back ends apple

31:37

, that is bloated product lineup he's at

31:39

now we're getting rid of almost a little young for making

31:41

a couple things as i were doing and

31:43

now if you look there's a whole bunch of

31:45

different i phones or have made of miles of

31:47

i phones and and is different

31:49

iterations of air party to smoke brought home pod

31:51

many do you think that is

31:54

that mistake for them to be

31:56

read growing this product

31:58

line rethink this is a different company different

32:00

time what the doing makes sense now

32:02

well boom we were doing what we

32:05

were doing we were less than a hundred

32:07

billion dollar valuation and a much

32:09

smaller set of customers right this

32:12

is a worldwide product with worldwide

32:15

their product lines or worldwide there

32:17

are so many different people who need so

32:19

many different things so you're going to have a natural

32:22

expansion of your product lineup

32:24

of of course could it be

32:26

simplified somewhat i bet you could be simplified

32:28

a little bit but is it really over don't

32:30

like it was back in the nineties no i

32:32

don't think it's i think gary has you

32:34

know the get their get their and care to it and

32:37

i know it's very tough to say we're going

32:39

to not do this thing and roll on going to

32:41

do this one so i think big dave

32:43

refined as much as they can they might have a little

32:45

bit but they needed that for whatever reason

32:47

you know and so but when

32:49

you have

32:51

scope and scale the business that big there's so

32:53

many different constituencies you have to serve

32:55

so we've been talking about your premise that you're building

32:57

to solve a problem that you have are you imagine

32:59

other people have and this is kind of a standard

33:02

advice i think ah but you're

33:04

also you're go out your way to be critical

33:06

of stuff for you don't think that works

33:08

of that's of that's and vr and metaverse

33:11

know metaverse

33:14

is the application of a are vr

33:16

or x our technology i do not

33:19

i think i fully

33:21

support a support v or annex are as technologies

33:23

as technologies support the metaverse as an application

33:26

the way it has been billed by some people

33:28

which is dancing in the metaverse with

33:30

vr and trying to make human

33:33

connection in the i had to be korea particle

33:35

the idea that you are going to want to strap on glasses

33:38

period like you're you're you're i think your argument

33:40

for a are vr as these are

33:42

industrial things these are have specific

33:45

uses it's not a consumer mainstream

33:47

product i don't think it's a consumer mainstream

33:49

platform nor product any

33:52

start with

33:53

solving and application or a pain point

33:55

first and then it can grow up into

33:57

a platform that is worthy and

34:00

maybe or maybe not it's worthy of social but

34:02

i don't think you can make real social connections

34:04

and something where you can't look into another person's eye

34:06

so i understand that you can't the the that

34:08

meeting in person like we're doing now a lotta

34:10

zoom interviews but your were doing this insanity

34:12

of zoom is great to it's better than a phone call write

34:14

it and it will they they all have uses right

34:17

and isn't there a use case for

34:19

a metaverse where there's

34:21

some it allows you to do things that you can't

34:23

do in the physical world or maybe

34:26

it's it's secondary thing you'd prefer to meet

34:28

in person but you can't

34:30

we could do it on zoom or we could do it

34:32

on the on the phone or whatever

34:34

way there's other ways of making connections when

34:36

you're spending thirty forty billion dollars

34:39

on something that in search of an application

34:41

me when there's other

34:44

needs and other things we need to do we

34:46

have scarce resources scarce money we

34:48

have a existential crisis out there call climate

34:51

crisis okay how are

34:53

we taking all these smart brains all this

34:55

money and something that doesn't have

34:57

a so if that doesn't as not solving

34:59

a problem we'd only

35:02

have so much time i say fuck

35:04

the metaverse because i want people to have

35:06

human connection and i want us to be investing

35:08

in the things so we can if maybe one day haven't

35:10

met averse for human connections but let's

35:12

go focus on the things that matter

35:14

i mean you can imagine it's easy to see

35:16

why mark zuckerberg thinks the metaverse

35:19

is both useful but also useful for metal

35:21

slash facebook right it's it's

35:23

it's for most people it's a solution

35:26

a in search of a problem for mark zuckerberg

35:28

it's i'm dependent on

35:31

apple and google to product out in

35:33

the it me the

35:36

i a as at a on

35:38

it i thing so a to

35:41

me to and

35:44

you a and the and

35:47

the can it sure

35:49

is no one wanted quimby

35:52

jeffrey katzenberg thought there would be a market

35:54

for any good imagine as she was all time

35:56

media where where where media

36:00

companies think a be much better if consumers

36:02

did this instead of that the consumers

36:04

don't want to do it right is it is

36:07

it is there an easy to understand a rubric for you

36:09

where you can go that that version

36:11

this thing you can clearly

36:14

see that this thing is not going to work

36:16

because there is no actual demand for

36:18

vs

36:19

maybe people just need to be brought to it and they

36:22

they don't know that it exists a you can't tell them

36:24

like again people didn't know there was a programmable

36:26

thermostat right a little rice and once you showed

36:28

them that they could buy it once you showed

36:30

them that they have reminded

36:32

them that they a pain that the need to solve

36:35

general magic was creating technology for technology

36:38

like wasn't working with general magic is like a half

36:40

the people with multnomah county general magic

36:42

was general company in born in the nineties

36:45

out of the original mac team bill

36:48

atkinson and he hurts felled

36:50

john hoffman all star cast all star

36:52

cast without steve that went to go

36:55

and create the personally tell the computer

36:57

communicator which was more

36:59

or less the i phone fifteen years too

37:01

early the technology wasn't rights society

37:04

wasn't right for he didn't know that there was any need

37:06

for this us geeks thought there were a need

37:08

for it but that's not where it was what

37:11

was what was happening because

37:13

no one had mobile email they didn't have

37:15

all these other thing

37:17

so when i look at something there

37:19

is so so what happened was we had

37:21

the right idea we were solving pain

37:23

for ourselves but the pain wasn't everywhere

37:26

else so isn't there again i'm i'm

37:28

yes i'm not i'm not your you go when i'm not hugely

37:30

pro metaverse but i can imagine an argument

37:32

of in fifteen years we're gonna

37:34

be there we have to start building for it now

37:37

and by the way we're faced with we out were a money machine

37:39

it makes sense for us to take this bet

37:42

that this is a vision of the world that is going

37:44

to arrive just like the i phone arrived

37:46

fifteen years after general magic you

37:49

have to turn your vision into a real story

37:51

that has real pain killing properties

37:53

if you don't it's all fiction and

37:55

is bs so don't

37:58

talk about it to you have

38:00

the talk about the i phone to we had

38:02

it we had to go through to have it erases and

38:04

lots of money to figure it out it's

38:06

not convey it will can google glass

38:08

google glass was exactly the same thing look

38:11

at this amazing thing and everyone's like well

38:13

what do i do with it exact

38:15

same thing we're still not there yet and

38:18

when you take so much time and energy and

38:20

snatches facebook now you have all

38:22

of these third party companies all these investors

38:24

going after something that's not

38:27

real okay and they're distracting

38:29

away from the existential problems let's

38:32

work on problems that we have not ones

38:34

that were imagining so this

38:36

also sounds exactly like crypto

38:39

to me

38:39

there's make at least for the moment we're recording

38:42

this and in early may right

38:44

maybe things will shift dramatically but there's an

38:46

enormous interest enormous interest

38:48

as an investment opportunity and

38:51

whenever i meet a crypto enthusiast a web three

38:53

enthusiasts i did tell me what i can do with this

38:55

other than speculate that it will go up right

38:59

and i'm have yet to get a convincing answer

39:01

or you are or how do you feel about crypto so

39:04

let's go crypto blockchain

39:06

and n f t's i think they're worthy technology

39:08

as long as they're done in the green fashion they

39:10

have to be done green proof of of

39:13

of the

39:16

of to i

39:18

can you can you want to so

39:20

i i the

39:24

a some of the and of its some

39:26

of smart you smart but

39:30

the of you

39:32

with any a

39:34

what is the tech what is the the the thing

39:37

the technology is doing that is useful

39:39

for me in crypto if

39:41

it applied right

39:43

there's only a few things that crypto really really

39:46

great for that's unique for that

39:48

is specifically for identity

39:51

right so you have identity

39:54

and you can store that on the block chain and

39:56

you know that that i own this thing i am the

39:58

spring right and you

40:00

can already many things can be replicated

40:02

in databases where you have sovereign

40:05

nations that have a rule of law where

40:07

there is no rule of law or there is a

40:09

dictator and you can use the technology

40:11

to unseat that to create a new communion

40:14

this but if you have rule of law like

40:16

people like i got to put all my real estate holdings on

40:18

the blotting well we have rule of law

40:20

eat bread is a piece of paper somewhere

40:22

in new york city and says that i own this little patch

40:24

of land in brooklyn right me in the bank and

40:27

would it be easier if that was electronically

40:29

accessible sure but it's not worth the time and

40:31

effort to do that yeah maybe one day it'll migrate

40:33

over but it is is not solving

40:36

the pain cause the pain was already some maybe

40:38

to be more efficient and i'll be evolutionary fine

40:40

but in some places where there is no rule of law where

40:42

there's that these technologies can be used

40:45

to be be a foil to

40:47

whatever is oppressing what's going on so

40:49

i do believe in those technology as the

40:52

holidays i don't think the idea that that

40:55

in absence of laws and

40:57

authority that this could be a way to

40:59

settle disputes or prove ownership

41:02

there's utility they're absolutely absolutely

41:05

and i think if we don't know where it's going but

41:07

with these to go beyond it again the culture

41:09

and to me too much my too much things going

41:12

on here you know we were seeing a crypto

41:14

bank robbery a day you know kind of a thing

41:17

where was that what's that website how

41:19

is web three oh yeah yeah you gotta love

41:21

it right it just shows the other side of it

41:24

so there are times when technologies

41:27

our apps either neutral right and

41:29

they can be applied for good things when i look at the

41:31

metaverse they're solving problems

41:33

with those and f t these other technologies

41:36

when it comes to dancing in the metaverse

41:39

that's a different thing that's an application

41:42

not a technology i believe in acts are

41:44

a are vr that needs to

41:46

be applied properly where investors and a company

41:48

called gravity sketch collaborative

41:51

vr with headsets design

41:53

of products it's amazing it's

41:55

transforming

41:56

the you add new and someone around the world

41:59

are working on it

42:00

act together and manipulating at yes

42:02

and then you can then send it to manufacturing and

42:04

then they can see it and you can that is

42:06

transformative a our glasses

42:09

i v ross and i tried to reboot the google

42:11

glass progress when i was going

42:13

through all of that with her the thing that

42:15

stood out to us was see what i

42:18

see you put on the glasses you're

42:20

doing something and you could call in and experts

42:22

and say let's i'm surgery i'm

42:24

having an issue and the expert come and see

42:26

what you're doing and say oh yeah i think you should do this i

42:28

should try this anybody

42:31

who's actually trying to learn something or do

42:33

something can call something and experts that

42:35

incredibly powerful that's an amazing

42:38

application right and

42:40

i i believe in that application for these

42:42

types of technology that's

42:44

as i want to be just really clear i'm not

42:46

against the technology and i care about the pain

42:49

those technologies are solving this idea that

42:51

tech is neutral and

42:53

you can use it for good thing is for bad things

42:55

assuming even i talked about and in

42:57

in the pakistan

42:59

the giant i guess you created

43:02

the i phone you helped create the i phone

43:04

and it's fundamentally transform

43:06

the world many ways better and

43:09

there's lots of there's lots of what we call

43:11

it the unintended current any consequences

43:13

what's the externalities an alternate even

43:15

if even if i'm not using an using phone i live

43:17

in an in phone world's people react

43:20

people react interact with me differently

43:22

than you might interact with the world differently because

43:24

some people have a smartphone can do digital cash

43:27

yeah digital check outs and the other people cake they

43:29

don't have the fire everyday or the subway and i'm one

43:31

listening to some one consume

43:33

something on their phone without using headphones

43:36

on like this is that a petty thing but it it annoys the

43:38

cause this never happened prior it's

43:40

a very small version of like

43:43

did it is that they are using in

43:45

a way that that is disruptive to me whether

43:47

i want to perseverance i'm wondering

43:49

it's want to revisit the conversation we had about

43:52

about how you think of the about

43:54

the impact of the i phone

43:56

and particular and if you have

43:58

any regrets over the

44:01

thing this thing i think i use the oppenheimer

44:04

atomic , analogy

44:06

and whether you think about that as

44:09

you're working on other stuff it's very unlikely

44:11

statistically that you're going to create another i phone because

44:13

no one ever has but you think

44:15

about what are the things that i make

44:17

this thing and someone's going to use it for ill

44:19

intent or not even a once had a just gonna it's reshape

44:22

the world in a way that i can't foresee that is gonna

44:24

be negative and and and whether you allow

44:26

yourself to think about that are you say i can't think

44:28

about that i have to build the thing i want to bet

44:31

no i think you have a responsibility to

44:33

think about the unintended consequences

44:36

and i think everyone has to understand

44:38

that all of these products ours

44:40

ours i should be part of a circular economy

44:43

so you can't just think about when you're designing

44:45

it i'm going to sell it and not think

44:47

about the end of life even in the book

44:49

we actually have end of life things in the

44:51

book and show how we'd created the book

44:54

and what's built of it and what you do at the

44:56

end everyone , just

44:58

if you're building a platform or digital technology

45:00

you need to think beyond that

45:02

first pride a but beyond the

45:04

the product being bought and used

45:06

the what happens at the end of life so

45:09

or during life and

45:11

so you have to expand your

45:13

expand your viewpoint and and make sure

45:15

you take into those things you might not know all of

45:17

them would you can't ignore them

45:20

either if you see them and you have to think

45:22

about them and and say

45:24

maybe i can sell them now but maybe i can solve

45:26

them later through these other things too

45:29

but you need to be conscious of it regardless made

45:31

you can't solve it or maybe can't

45:33

see you've gotta understand

45:36

that and be able to

45:39

be quick and ready to fix it if it is

45:41

because if you are the creator

45:43

or the team of the companies the creator bad you

45:46

, responsibility to fix the problems

45:48

that you might create that you were an unintended

45:51

to create and so when we look at social mobile

45:53

companies are we look at other things maybe

45:56

they're intentionally trying to create trying to

45:58

that's polarizer whatever if they

46:00

are will then the well that's a whole nother story

46:03

but if they weren't they need to go fix that and they

46:05

figure it out and then to work through it

46:07

to to to get to a better place so we can

46:09

all learn from it and make sure we we

46:11

we get past that right and that's

46:13

why screentime was added

46:16

to these products you know the a

46:18

home products to help with that now we can

46:20

go further and you you an you

46:23

of as a of

46:27

the you and

46:30

you no one but

46:36

no one and in a of of

46:40

or out

46:44

why a on box

46:46

is so i so the it

46:51

if you and you to

46:53

of to

46:57

i don't know about restrain people's use but give

46:59

them the tools to be able to either

47:02

of gauge what they're doing and be able to

47:04

modify modify their behavior or

47:06

to actually allow people to like have the lock

47:08

on the refrigerator cycads you know open

47:11

it up it in the middle and nights but people need to

47:13

have those choices and they need to be at the

47:15

platform level because the third parties

47:17

can do whatever they wanted the top level but

47:19

someone's gotta watch over them right

47:21

and then allow you to have the information to make

47:23

better choices

47:25

could you have to be an optimist to be doing

47:27

what you do oh absolutely

47:30

i'm but you can look around the world and go

47:32

oh man it looks like a modern ways for going backwards

47:34

there's a land war in europe and there's it

47:37

looks like we're getting back to back cold

47:39

war that could be a hot war and

47:41

be theirs existential

47:43

energy and climate issues

47:46

absolutely everything it's

47:48

great that i'm working on these cool gadgets

47:50

and things but i really should be doing

47:53

either , be doing something that's fundamentally

47:56

going to change the world and the world way

47:58

or or

48:00

or maybe i can't do it through through this stuff

48:02

and i can do it through philanthropy and

48:05

your volunteer work so

48:08

let's be clear

48:10

the work we do a future ship today is

48:12

transformative were working on things everyday

48:15

to help the planet societies are health

48:17

right well as far as was we we we are trying

48:19

to make the will bear through our investments in or fourth

48:21

that's it but i want to be very clear that

48:23

we get to see all these great companies and

48:25

ideas and we can only be hopeful

48:27

because we see five ten fifteen

48:29

years in the future of the technology to help

48:31

us get out of these problems with it we created

48:34

for ourselves because we're working

48:36

on an everyday we see that most people don't see

48:38

them because they're not ready yet

48:40

so if you're working in the space you

48:42

can only be hopeful because you can see the

48:44

solutions are coming and where you can only help to accelerate

48:47

it now we have

48:49

horrible tragedy in ukraine horrible

48:52

horrible what was that driven

48:54

by that was driven by crazy

48:57

tyrant dictator who

49:00

he believed he has the

49:02

keys to kingdoms because he supplying

49:04

the energy to everyone

49:06

who needs it so therefore i have leverage

49:08

over you it is now exposing that

49:11

dark underbelly because we're like oh no

49:13

wall just get along and we're gonna be happy it

49:15

is now causing us

49:17

actually it maybe a little late but at least

49:19

at it now the right time

49:22

to go rethink our energy and how

49:24

we get it how we use it how we consume

49:26

it and and make those changes

49:29

and we have the technologies to green

49:31

to green ephi them to from

49:34

the and the to

49:37

from a a to

49:40

be to the systems

49:42

so yes the the war is horrible

49:45

but there's us a group a dark but

49:47

a silver lining one that says we're

49:49

going to make these it's going to motivate us

49:51

to make these transitions faster right

49:54

because we have to for our sovereign independent

49:56

so we're not beholden to anyone who has

49:59

the wrong ideas

50:00

so if you know that the technologies

50:02

coming and now we have the will and we can

50:04

band together like we have and we have

50:06

to get away from that old model this

50:08

is the perfect time to solve those problems

50:11

because we have to solve them do you look at the

50:13

the the way the pendulum has swung

50:15

in terms of public perception and spit at least

50:17

media coverage of tech over

50:19

the last five years ago this

50:22

, overdue this was correct we were way

50:24

too optimistic and and we gave

50:26

people way too much didn't spend enough time

50:28

scrutinising big tech in the

50:30

power they have power they is right

50:32

or we've overdone it and people have missed

50:35

out why all this stuff is great and transformative

50:37

and we should be more

50:40

i think certain companies and certain leaders

50:42

have overstepped their bounds

50:45

they're going to have to if they can't rain themselves

50:47

in their gonna have to be reined and

50:50

so i think a lot of people

50:52

give a lot of visionaries

50:54

and a lot of people who are

50:56

change makers a lot of leeway

50:59

because wow i'm glad they made

51:01

the change or do they brought some special thing

51:03

to us that we didn't have before when

51:06

you abuse that power with

51:08

power like that he comes responsibility

51:11

and we have to make sure that our leaders

51:13

are responsible and they can't run themselves and

51:15

we're going to have to rain them it and so

51:18

i think some people have overstepped and

51:20

i think we're going to need to pull them back if they can't if

51:22

they can't stop module and understand

51:24

what's good for society not just what's good

51:26

for you know add driven

51:29

you know toxic regular

51:31

doctor burke is what you're trying to say he absolutely

51:33

okay where did you i'm literally

51:35

may atticus about in about week did

51:37

you want you on muster on twitter twitter

51:41

has been stagnating for too long i

51:44

hope there's gonna be great new uses for it

51:46

i hope there's a model i heard recently

51:48

that we are might go to a paid

51:50

model instead it paid model instead

51:52

of a click advertising model we

51:55

can divorce revenue

51:57

generation from an

52:00

algorithm that promotes click

52:02

bait i'm all for okay

52:05

so if he can be benevolent in

52:07

their way and do the right thing but if he

52:09

just he just opens it up and decides

52:11

that anyone can be on the platform

52:14

they can say anything they want at any

52:16

time regardless of the content of the information

52:19

it just turns into four chan or a

52:21

chance or anything else if people don't

52:23

know those things they should go look at that

52:25

history because that's exactly

52:27

on a much bigger scale that could become

52:29

that if we really turn it if we take off

52:31

all the controls

52:34

that is the conventional wisdom is

52:36

is it could go back when i'm gonna love

52:38

of all smoking weed and twitter that are

52:41

you know i don't know how us a well mean that we've

52:43

already want to experiment yeah right we run experiment

52:45

that that that is there's lots of downside

52:47

to that model or it's unclear

52:49

whether there is a paid version that

52:52

yeah we don't know who's right or know

52:54

that's right we don't know that that's that's

52:56

that's to be explored i hope we explored because we

52:58

need to get to a new place in the meantime

53:00

you can go and buy filled by

53:02

tony fratto ten authoritarian

53:04

in the office not in the metaverse not

53:06

even on zoom going to look at you across the desk a

53:08

great it's been awhile since we've been able to do this

53:10

so thanks for coming st peter

53:15

thanks again the tony fidel thanks to get into rich greenfield

53:17

and giovanni and travis for producing

53:20

editing the show and our sponsors for bringing

53:22

the show to you for free it's still free says

53:25

record media record media see you next week