0:01

Are you ready? Welcome back everyone to a new episode of Red Flags, Green Flags,

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Modern Psychology for Everyday Drama.

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In this season, we are talking about work relationships, specifically

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focusing on red and green flags at work.

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We spend about 2 thirds of our lives at work, and so building strong and positive

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relationships at work is critical if we want to have a successful career.

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It's not just about what you know, but it's also who you know and

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how you engage with others that leads to better work outcomes.

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The aim of this season is to help listeners better understand the

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drama that happens at work and to provide deep insights to why

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people behave the way they do. Also, we will discuss different strategies on how to deal with workplace

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drama from working with difficult colleagues and managers to how to

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survive in a toxic work environment. By using a psychological lens to interpret real life experiences at

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work, we can gain better insights on how best to navigate the complexity of

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modern work and organizational life.

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Now, it is often said that we get attracted to companies for what they

1:18

stand for and the reputation they have, but that we also often leave a company

1:22

due to bad relationship with a manager.

1:25

Your relationship with your manager is crucial to your success in the

1:28

organization and also to your career. Good managers help you grow, succeed, and even flourish.

1:34

Competent and confident managers often look for people who are better and

1:37

smarter than themselves because they enjoy seeing others grow and succeed.

1:42

Bad managers on the other hand are often fearful of the abilities of high

1:45

performing employees scared that their job will be on the line if outperformed.

1:50

Other examples of bad management are people who micromanage their employees

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or take credit for work done by others.

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The way your manager treats you can impact you in so many different ways,

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and a bad manager can significantly hold back your career progression and even

2:05

negatively affect your mental health. And so joining me on my podcast today to talk about how to deal with difficult

2:12

managers is Candida Pinto, a legal professional with over 20 years of

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work experience in the legal industry.

2:19

Candida, welcome to the podcast. Here in Dubai.

2:22

It is an absolute pleasure to have you here.

2:25

Thank you. Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.

2:28

Thank you for being here. So maybe you can tell us a little bit more about what you do and, um,

2:34

how long you've been here in Dubai. Um, as some candidate painter, I'm a solicitor, uh, qualified,

2:42

uh, in England, uh, and Wales.

2:44

And I moved to Dubai, um, in September 20 13.

2:51

So it will be 10 years on the 20 ninth of September that I first arrived in Dubai.

2:57

Uh, I've been an in house legal counsel for, um, companies

3:02

in the oil and gas sector. And in December 20 20, I moved to a law firm, which is not a traditional law firm.

3:12

It's a bit of a disruptor in the legal profession, uh, where we had

3:16

a we worked from anywhere we were.

3:19

Uh, we did not have an office, uh, and we were like sort of

3:24

independent independent lawyers.

3:26

And in April 20 23, uh, I moved back in house, uh, as head of the

3:33

legal department for a company in the oil and gas sector still.

3:37

Good. Seems like you you've had a very, uh, fruitful career,

3:42

um, in the legal industry.

3:45

Do you find that, for example, now in Dubai, working also for such a long

3:51

time in in the legal industry, that it's very different than in other areas

3:56

around the world that you've worked? Yes.

3:58

And I think there are, um, whether it's you are an in house legal counsel or

4:03

whether you work for a law firm, there are other complexities that you have to

4:08

take into account in the work environment, um, such as cultural differences, which

4:16

often can be miss misinterpreted, um, you know, as somebody perhaps behaving

4:27

in a manner that, um, is not agreeable with you, um, because you come from well,

4:34

I lived most of my life in in the UK.

4:37

I am Portuguese, um, by birth.

4:40

So I understand 2 different cultures.

4:43

But now here in Dubai, I need to understand a variety of

4:46

other cultures because this is a very diverse, uh, community.

4:50

And there's a lot of people here of course. There's a lot of people here.

4:53

Yeah. So, um, management skills and, um, takes a whole other dimension

5:00

because you have to factor into, uh, into it the cultural differences.

5:05

Yeah. And everyone has a different approach if you come from

5:08

India, Middle East, or Europe. Absolutely.

5:10

Different perspectives of what management is, authority.

5:13

Absolutely. And the relationships between the manager and the, uh, the people senior

5:19

to the manager and the within the organization, which the manner in which

5:23

the manager may behave or manages, uh, its direct reports, um, and in my

5:31

experience is highly influenced by the culture, um, that the manager comes from.

5:37

Great. Great. And then I think yeah. And So absolutely.

5:40

And I think in today's podcast, when we're gonna talk about bad management

5:43

and what causes bad management or even good management for that matter of

5:46

fact, I think culture, as you mentioned, plays a huge role in that and also

5:50

how we interpret certain behaviors and of what's right and what's not right.

5:54

Before we actually jump into the nuts and bolts about red flags and

5:59

bad management, I would like to ask you, um, how would you rate your own

6:03

management skills from from 0 to 10 if you could give yourself a number and why?

6:08

Right. Um, I would say 8 to 9.

6:17

And the reason I say that is actually, like, in your introduction, you

6:23

mentioned all the things that I believe in, um, as a as a manager and how

6:30

managing people, uh, should look like.

6:35

And 1 of the things is that, um, I believe in raising everybody

6:42

around me, uh, whoever they are.

6:46

Um, I I share knowledge. I'm very open about sharing knowledge, uh, and helping other people grow.

6:53

Because I've always believed that if you have a happy team working with

6:58

you, that, uh, they feel happy to be with you, uh, they listen to you,

7:06

they feel heard, they feel valued.

7:11

Um, you even if they have more experience than you or they

7:17

know more than you, you rise.

7:20

As they rise, you also rise because your team is gonna make you look good.

7:28

So if you support your team and if you give them the tools to to thrive

7:34

and to develop, uh, as as lawyers, um, or, you know, whoever whether

7:42

whatever the uh, the, uh, the job may be, um, then you're gonna look good.

7:48

Amazing. So so for you, seeing other people grow and develop is something

7:54

that you also enjoy doing then. Absolutely.

7:56

Yeah. Absolutely. I think that's I think that's a really good hallmark of a of a good manager.

8:01

Right? Especially when you manage people, it's not about yourself.

8:04

It's about what you do for other people. Uh, yes.

8:07

And at the end of the day, particularly when you are, um, an in in house, you're

8:14

you're working for the enterprise. Okay?

8:17

If you're in a law firm and you are a partner, you're kind of working

8:20

for yourself, so it's slightly the the dynamics are very different.

8:24

Um, but you are working for the enterprise.

8:26

And if the enterprise is doing well, making money and profit, um, then you

8:36

have a job, you get paid, you may get a pay rise or bonuses or or whatever.

8:42

So, uh, it's for the benefit of the collective rather than

8:45

the benefit of the individual. Of the individual.

8:47

But I can also imagine at the same time working for a law firm, it seems to

8:52

me like a high pressure environment. Right? It's the the pressure is always on.

8:56

You have to deliver, um, and and, you know, I guess this the

9:01

task that you actually engage with are not very light things.

9:04

I mean, law is law. How do you interpret it?

9:07

You've got to do with deal with conflict. Explain how how you as a manager then help your people, uh, the

9:16

lawyers in that in that matter, to to work effectively together and and

9:21

to deal really well with pressure? Um, my my experience in a traditional law firm is, uh, is is limited, um,

9:29

but but, you know, having had some experience in in the with that argentum,

9:39

you are always uh, working against very tight deadline deadlines usually.

9:46

Personally, I tend to when everyone is fretting around me and getting all

9:53

stressed, I tend to go really calm.

9:57

Um, and then sort of instead of, um, just talking a lot, I

10:04

think, first, I look at Before.

10:07

Before Responding. Before responding.

10:10

And I think look at look at the facts, and there has been, uh, I'm I'm thinking of

10:17

sort of situations where I have been where managers are making emotional decisions,

10:23

and then I have to go back and look at the facts and then say, you know, um, yes.

10:29

I understand where you're coming from.

10:31

It's very irritating and all of that, but, uh, uh, let's look at

10:36

this from this perspective as well because it might be more beneficial

10:41

to look at things this way. Yeah. You do come across as someone who is very reflective, who is very thoughtful, um,

10:47

and but I can also imagine that a lot of managers working in a similar environment

10:52

might have a very different personality. Could you give some examples of, you know, other management styles that you've seen

10:58

based on different personality traits, or maybe how people behave that you either

11:03

considered either positive or maybe even negative for that matter of fact?

11:08

Um, well, I I can only speak, uh, for, um, past managers that, um, that I had and the

11:15

experiences that, um, that I went through.

11:20

And 2 jobs that I had in the past, I left because of the manager.

11:25

1 of them, when I was in the UK, if If it wasn't for the manager, I would probably

11:30

still be, uh, with the company today.

11:33

Um, but I actually thank him because that gave me the opportunity to

11:36

come to Dubai, and my experience here in Dubai has been very rich.

11:41

So when 1 door closes, another 1 opens.

11:44

Another 1 opens. Absolutely. Absolutely.

11:47

But I didn't quite think and see it that way at the time.

11:51

Um, I I think 1 problem, sometimes the problem is, and it was the case,

11:57

uh, in with that manager that I had, um, is that people believe that in

12:05

order to elevate themselves, they need to suppress those that Yeah.

12:10

Are below them. That's unfortunate. That are below them.

12:13

Yeah. Uh, and that creates a difficult environment because, uh, erodes trust

12:19

between uh, the employee and the manager.

12:23

And you need to have trust, uh, in order for the organization to operate,

12:29

uh, effectively and efficiently. And also for employees to also give their best Yes.

12:34

In the organization. Uh, and and that sort of negative behavior is not necessarily a

12:40

a manager who is loud, shouts a lot, raises his voice at you.

12:46

You say his voice? His voice.

12:48

Yeah. In this case, it was a it was a he.

12:52

Yes. I think in both cases, it was a he.

12:56

Um, but is is the, is the way sometimes things are done, uh,

13:05

which are clearly designed either to undermine you or to distance

13:13

you, to make you feel like devalued.

13:23

Right. Um, as well. It is.

13:25

So it's Yeah. The behavior can take, uh, you know, I've experienced, uh, also

13:30

somebody that threatened to hit me, but, uh That's terrible.

13:34

So Yeah. Uh, you know, it can be, um, uh, a variety, um, of behaviors.

13:41

Behaviors that can manifest. Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

13:43

It's not necessarily allowed and an aggressive 1.

13:46

No. No. It's interesting. We can talk about that. I think, you know, some some elements of people's bad behaviors can be linked

13:52

to maybe sometimes incompetencies. Mhmm.

13:55

But it can also often be related to either personality style or insecurities

13:59

that people might have in the workplace. And especially with managers that, um, you know, I like well, I don't wanna say

14:05

just incompetent, but sometimes those insecurities that managers bring Yes.

14:10

Into the workplace, you know, really help makes them do things

14:12

that are not really productive or not very helpful to other people.

14:15

And you gave this example of wanting to suppress other people Mhmm.

14:20

Um, just for themselves to look better.

14:23

And I I often I I see that a lot also in organizations when I assess, you

14:27

know, behaviors and productivity and well-being of employees and organizations.

14:30

And I, you know, I often say that a players choose a players,

14:35

but b players choose c players. Mhmm.

14:37

And that's so clear in an organization because you see that the b players who

14:41

are very fearful of, you know, other people showing up and and them potentially

14:47

looking bad that they they would tend to hire people that are, you know, which they

14:52

believe are significantly low in terms of performance and personality and behaviors.

14:58

Get rid of the people that they see as a threat potentially.

15:01

Correct. Yeah. And and and and then also the people that they have in place, they they often,

15:06

um, will also mistreat them as a way to kind of make themselves feel better.

15:10

And then and, unfortunately, that happens a lot in organizations.

15:14

Yes. Yeah. And then my in my case, it was that the manager, uh, came into the organization.

15:23

Um, I knew that that was going to happen.

15:26

I knew that there there were reasons why, um, he would come in and as sort

15:32

of the the head of the legal department, uh, and I was perfectly happy with that.

15:38

And I when he joined, I took him around to present introduced him

15:43

to everybody and and all of that.

15:46

But I had, uh, at that time, I already had, um, 8 years

15:53

of service with a company. So I had well established relationships, um, both within the, uh, the organization

16:03

as well as, um, external players, uh, clients, and and vendors, and

16:12

make us part of my job in community.

16:14

You were saying that regardless of what happened to you, thanks to those personal

16:19

relationships that you had built up, you had some kind of buffer or protection?

16:23

I had I had a, uh, had a strong position within the organization, um, because

16:28

I was regarded as sort of a a trusted, uh, employee employee and somebody

16:34

that, uh, manages and and and the other people within the organization would

16:40

come to me for, uh, advice and support.

16:44

And I've always operated an open door policy, and whatever question, uh, I

16:49

am asked, uh, even if it is not a legal question, I never say it is not my job

16:55

because I always respond to the question.

16:59

Uh, even if it is to say, um, yeah.

17:02

I think this and that, but, uh, it might be best that you double

17:06

check with someone else because they may know slightly better.

17:09

But, you know, I can sort of direct you in the right in in the right position.

17:14

So so so that was more of a let's say, you were saying that that would be

17:18

more of a a way of maintaining yourself in the organization of having a good

17:23

reputation, a, you know, a strong network as a way of feeling protected from What?

17:30

From bad management? How how does this relate?

17:32

Well, the the the this relates that to the with the manager when he came

17:37

in because I already had that sort of reputation within the organization.

17:41

I think he felt threatened. Uh, okay.

17:44

Got it. Threatened by that strong reputation that I have within the organization, um,

17:52

and felt overshadowed perhaps by by me.

17:58

So I took steps to, um, kind of the end result, it was to sort

18:08

of demote me and to distance me from having direct contact Right.

18:14

Right. With the with the managers so that he could be in between

18:18

the managers and and myself. Yeah.

18:20

That's a very In order to elevate himself and and and to feel that he was the 1

18:26

that had the power and the authority within the organization and not me.

18:29

Yeah. It's very unfortunate that that happens because, you know, 1 I think

18:33

1 major red flag and, you know, with with managers with ill intent is when

18:39

they see that you might be a high performer or very well connected,

18:43

that they know that if something goes wrong, you always have access to other

18:48

people, other decision makers in the organization that you can speak to.

18:51

And so 1 specific behavior that comes up a lot, um, is that when that fear

18:58

is there that sometimes managers can try to isolate you Correct.

19:01

From the rest of the organization. Correct.

19:03

And and so that way, they they can ensure that you know nobody sees you,

19:08

um, even though you have a very strong reputation that they'll see you less.

19:11

Uh, they might be able to talk bad about you because of that, you know,

19:15

um, and then you would not have access to people or not just your network,

19:20

but also information sometimes. Correct.

19:22

Absolutely. Uh, and this this particular, uh, manager is is is an example

19:28

of all of that because, um, soon after he joined the company, I I

19:36

went on secondment to a law firm.

19:39

Um, this was an arrangement between the company and the law firm and, uh,

19:44

that I was going to to be seconded to them for 8 months, and a lawyer

19:49

from the law firm would come and, uh, uncover for me, um, in the office.

19:56

And it was part of, um, my agreement with the company Mhmm.

20:00

That whilst on secondment, I would still support, um, the company

20:07

during those 8 months Right. That I was gonna be out.

20:11

Uh, and soon soon before, um, I left to go on secondment, uh, I was prohibited

20:19

from communicating with anyone in the company during those 8 months.

20:23

Wow. And Yeah.

20:25

And what was the reason behind that? No reason.

20:28

I wasn't given a reason. So, uh, because I had dealt with, um, a transaction where documents were with a

20:40

notary public in the custody of a notary public, and they would only release

20:48

those documents once we ordered them to do so and to take the next steps.

20:57

Uh, it was a day or 2 after I left that a colleague of mine from the

21:02

Norwegian office sent an email to me copying my manager and everybody

21:08

inquiring about those documents, and I responded to that email and

21:14

everyone, including my my manager, um, just to say where the documents were.

21:22

And then the next thing I knew, I was called into the

21:25

office for disciplinary action. So, um, yeah, that's, um, that was his way of Getting rid of you.

21:40

Well, try Yeah. Trying to, but you obviously would you wouldn't be able to for those

21:44

8 months that I was on secondment. But, but as soon as I I returned as soon as I returned to the company, even though

21:51

my agreement was that I would remain with the company for at least a year,

21:55

but I I left immediately after Yeah.

21:57

You don't wanna stay there anymore after that. Absolutely.

22:00

No. I was I mean I I mean, I wanted to throw something of a soft landing

22:03

in here saying, like, how difficult, you know, bad situations can play

22:08

out in law firms because everyone knows the law in that perspective.

22:12

So I would not want to I wouldn't I could not imagine how that

22:16

would play out in that sense. Like, everyone knows the law, so if bad things happen,

22:20

you know exactly what to do. I don't know. Is that a case?

22:23

Just for the layman's perspective here, but Well, from my limited experience,

22:27

uh, with law firms, and this is a comment that I have made in the past,

22:32

that it always surprises me that behaviors like this, they still take

22:38

place in law firms even though you would have thought that lawyers know best.

22:43

Right. But, unfortunately, they're not immune to that kind of bad behavior.

22:48

Yeah. No 1 is, apparently. No no 1 is.

22:50

No 1 is. So so looking back in your thank you for showing that, first of all.

22:54

And and and and so, Candida, looking back in your overall, you know, career, and

23:00

what what would you then kind of describe? What would be some examples of really bad bosses in terms of behavior?

23:06

And but what also kind of other examples you've given your own

23:09

today, but what would you also give some examples of good behaviors?

23:13

Good behaviors. Or exemplary behaviors of a of a good boss?

23:20

That's a difficult 1, actually. The good ones or the bad ones?

23:23

The the good ones. It's funny that you you remember more the bad ones than you do Yeah.

23:28

Than you remember the the good ones.

23:30

So maybe we could just focus on the But I I do have bad ones.

23:33

Yeah. I I do have colleagues that there were colleagues of mine, actually lawyers

23:39

as well, um, because the company was a multinational, and we had lawyers

23:43

in in the UK, in Oslo, in Houston.

23:47

And a colleague of mine from the Houston office, uh, that was

23:52

actually a very good, um, support.

23:56

And I often spoke spoke to him, uh, about the goings on in the office.

24:02

Right. So you're saying support support provided by a manager is an

24:07

example of a good behavior? Yes. Yes.

24:09

Okay. Okay. Yes. Well, any other examples that you can come up with that you can think of?

24:13

Now you put me on the spot. Maybe I can share maybe I can share 1 that that I think is really important.

24:21

I I well, I and it comes back to what you said before, managers that elevate you.

24:26

Right? Really managers that give you wings and the resources and the support.

24:30

And elevation doesn't always have to mean, like, oh, here's all the

24:33

resources that you need to have. Sometimes it is a manager that gives you a a challenging opportunity to work

24:40

on so that you can grow and flourish and learn, and then he or she being

24:45

that support mechanism for you as you go through that new experience.

24:51

Correct. And I'm also thinking of my current, um, my current job, and, um, I I report

24:58

directly to the president of the company.

25:01

Uh, and I do feel that I have that I have his back.

25:07

Um, and that that that kind of behavior can be reflected very sadly.

25:14

Yeah. Uh, and even if it is to communicate to other members and to other managers in

25:20

the company that, for example, they need to come to me about about certain certain

25:25

matters and to discuss them with me before they take any action, that kind of thing.

25:31

So it doesn't have to be, uh, giving you a big job with great competent and Yeah.

25:43

Yeah. That you have a role to play. Right.

25:45

So, um, all of that is positive, uh, positive behavior Right.

25:51

Which gives you a sense of, um, you know, worth and, um, and security as well.

25:59

And, you know, you don't feel like I'm gonna be thrown under

26:04

the bus in any minute now. Right. So So yeah.

26:07

And I like how you said that. It's not just only, the things that they do for you, but how

26:10

they make you feel and Correct. Yeah. Like, giving you autonomy, giving you the opportunity to speak and

26:17

make decisions, um, not only make you feel supported, but recognizing

26:21

you as well for your accomplishments. Um, I mean, it's it's almost like any kind of relationship anywhere where

26:26

someone supports you and helps you to to be able to do your job and and

26:30

also has your back when you have to take some time, because sometimes

26:33

you have to make difficult decisions. Or sometimes you have to take risks.

26:36

And, you know, sometimes there are no procedures for the

26:39

things that you need to do. And do you does not just maybe the environment, but does that manager

26:43

make you feel that you can speak up? I think that's a really nice thing that you mentioned.

26:47

I've got a really interesting question for you.

26:50

And, um, this is also, um, I'll probably I'll I'll share with you first because

26:55

I also ask my audience and followers on Instagram, um, about, um, of them

27:00

sharing also some experiences with us.

27:02

And I would love to get your perspective on this, and then

27:04

I'll follow-up with a question. Um, so this this, um, comment actually came from, um, a lady

27:11

called Niharika based out of India.

27:14

And she is a high performing software engineer, um, who says that when

27:19

a new female tech lead joined the company, she made her life a hell.

27:24

The tech lead didn't lead like her, uh, from the beginning at

27:27

all and, uh, just found ways to to make her look bad publicly,

27:31

but also, uh, secretively as well.

27:34

So spoke bad about her behind her back.

27:37

And, um, her own manager, who was also a female, wasn't supportive either to

27:41

her, even though she knew her longer than she knew the new tech lead, and

27:45

would also take sides of of that new lady that joined the company at times.

27:50

Neha Rika says that she refused to react to these bad behaviors and engage in it.

27:55

Just put my head down, you know, just let me do my job and I'll

27:58

just I'll just move on with it. But over a period of 2 years, um, it significantly impacted her

28:03

mental health, but also stopped her from advancing in the company.

28:07

What's your take on this? No. I just, uh, yes.

28:13

Recognize? I recognize all I recognize all of that.

28:16

Um, I've never had um, female managers.

28:21

My managers have always been male, but I have I've had female female colleagues.

28:29

Um, so my experience with female colleagues has been generally positive.

28:36

Uh, but with managers, um, yeah, um, I recognize all all of that.

28:42

Um, and Which you've observed from people around you, or I'm also from what I I

28:47

experienced myself and how, um, Bath manages by, um, you know what what she

28:55

mentioned, which is kind of similar to what happened to me in the job that I had

29:01

before, um, I joined Agennta, And that was, um, a meeting was going to occur, and

29:12

I was meant to be attending that meeting, but I wasn't told about the meeting.

29:20

And this was a time when weekend was Friday and Saturday, uh,

29:26

when on a Thursday afternoon Oh, so that was in Dubai then?

29:28

That was in Yeah. Okay. Got it. Got it. Uh, on a Thursday afternoon, I went to see my manager and asked, uh, to

29:34

ask if I could take, um, half Sunday afternoon off because I was going

29:40

to a lunch on Sunday afternoon.

29:44

And then I was told there was gonna be a meeting on Sunday with the, um, uh, with

29:51

the CFO that was coming from Houston.

29:54

Just for the listeners out there, that that time Sunday

29:56

was the Monday Was it Yeah. In the Arab world.

29:59

Correct. And the UAE has changed in that. Yeah.

30:01

Just so that everyone understands Correct.

30:04

The context. Um, so and, um, and I said, what's the meeting about?

30:11

I don't know. Uh, what time is the meeting?

30:14

I don't know. Then Sunday morning, I was in the office, and the finance director

30:19

came by my office and said, um, no.

30:22

Your manager said you were not gonna be in today.

30:27

And I said, um, no. This is the conversation that I have on Thursday afternoon.

30:33

What time is the meeting? 1 30.

30:36

I said, right. I'll cancel lunch. And you went to the meeting?

30:41

So I canceled lunch, and I went to the meeting.

30:43

Fantastic. When I when eventually he had to call me for the meeting, so I arrive

30:49

at the meeting, and I see that on on the table, there were, uh, some

30:55

slides printed and stapled together.

30:58

And I picked up a set of slides.

31:03

And that was all about the work that we do.

31:06

And at the time, I was looking after the Asia Pacific region.

31:09

So he was taking credit for your work? Well, um, I I I don't know whether it was I I I don't know what

31:16

was his thinking, um, but then very legal answer, by the way.

31:21

I I looked I looked I looked at the slides, and then, uh, and then he

31:28

said, uh, well, I'll I'll talk about, uh, Middle Eastern Africa and Canada.

31:32

We'll talk about Asia Pacific. And I thought, um, well, thanks, because now I'm to totally unprepared for this

31:40

meeting, and I have to think on my feet. Did it turn out well for you?

31:45

So for me, it turned out well because then the, uh, the CFO wanted to

31:49

know about me, and, uh, so I I I told him a bit of my trajectory.

31:54

And, basically, most of my jobs, uh, that I've had, it was because I was

31:59

persuaded to join those companies rather than actually me going going looking

32:04

for or or even applying for those jobs.

32:09

So I I had been headhunted, um, like, twice before.

32:14

Um, so for me, it it went well, but that is a good example of, um, the

32:21

kind of behavior that can cause an enormous amount of stress and anxiety.

32:26

For sure. Uh, because that example isn't the only 1.

32:30

There were various others. And, um, and, um, and, yeah, uh, that had a severe impact on my mental health.

32:40

So I was with that company for 4 years, and before I left,

32:43

I I I got I went to therapy.

32:47

So that's Yeah.

32:49

So I totally resonate, uh, with that kind of behavior Yeah.

32:54

Uh, and how it can have a negative impact because then

32:57

you don't know where you stand. Right. And the thing is we all we all have speaking for myself that I know that I

33:06

will I've always known that I have my own emotional baggage that I carry with you.

33:12

We all do. Uh, so managers also have their own Yeah.

33:16

Their own baggage. But I think, um, and now having done therapy and which I continue

33:24

to do, and I can I listen to lots of other podcasts, including yours?

33:30

And now I have the tools that if I was faced with that, um, similar,

33:36

uh, same or similar scenario, I would probably handle it very differently.

33:41

But at the time, I did not have the tools to deal with it.

33:44

Right. So yeah. Yeah. Thanks let's say thanks to the digital age, I think also, um, more and more of

33:51

these stories are being shared, and more information is available than ever before.

33:57

And, you know, often often people say, well, why didn't

34:00

we know about this before? And I think, well, honestly, of course, I think we did experience it, we didn't

34:04

know about it, but what's also very interesting, and and I and we talked

34:08

about this just briefly before we started the show, When I was when I

34:12

was, um, having people to come in and join, um, this series to talk about,

34:17

you know, work relationships, I thought it would be such an easy topic to talk

34:22

about and everyone would love to join.

34:25

But apparently, people are more willing to come in and talk about the devastation

34:28

of toxic relationships and love than they are to talk about work relationships.

34:33

And and that fascinated me because it shows that and and this is 1 of

34:38

the reasons why I wanted to have this topic for this series on the podcast

34:42

is because I think we know we know about it, but we don't talk about it.

34:47

And and it's you know, also, when we talk about office politics or organizational

34:51

politics, we all know it exists. But there doesn't seem to be any more information about how to deal with it.

34:58

Business schools don't even teach you about office politics, generally speaking.

35:02

And and so what's really interesting is is that now with more information coming

35:07

out there, we're starting to listen we're starting to learn more and and starting

35:11

to identify when certain behaviors are not good and what can we do about it.

35:15

And that's why I think these stories and also the stories that you're sharing

35:18

today are so important to the listeners.

35:20

And I think there's so many people out there right now listening to your

35:23

personal experience and think, damn it. I'm going through that right now or, you know, I went through that a

35:29

couple of months ago or last year. And what you've also mentioned is that and this is just the unfortunate truth

35:35

of spending 2 thirds of our life at work is that if things don't go well

35:39

at work, it has a huge impact on us.

35:42

Massive. Yeah. Massive.

35:44

I have never experienced the the levels of stress and anxiety, um,

35:51

like, I I went I have panic attacks, uh, essentially, something that

35:56

I have never experienced before.

35:59

Um, but as I said, I I did not have the tools.

36:03

Right. So the work that I've been doing on myself, which I thoroughly recommend

36:07

that everyone should go and do it, just you know, you cannot change anybody.

36:13

Uh, you can only change yourself. You can only arm yourself with the tools to deal with those those kind of issues.

36:21

Yeah. Uh, beg and that is for the benefit of your own mental health.

36:24

Mental health. Yeah. Absolutely. Uh, and it will help you navigate, uh, the, uh, the office politics.

36:32

Because I I was talking to, um, a friend of mine from a university

36:38

that moved to Dubai, uh, at the beginning of April as the managing

36:42

director for a pharmaceutical company. Um, and he was talking to me about the finance director's sort of reaction

36:54

to a particular situation, and and and he was saying to her, look.

36:59

Don't worry about it. Don't panic because this is not about you.

37:02

It's about the company, okay, so don't take it personally.

37:06

Yeah. And the thing is we sometimes think that whatever is going on in the

37:11

office is about us, is somebody trying to get to us, somebody.

37:16

You know, in these examples that, uh, that I gave about experiences

37:21

that, uh, I have been through, uh, yes, it was it was related to me.

37:27

But I don't think the the thinking of the manager is not, I want to really

37:32

make her life really, really difficult.

37:34

Right. Uh, I think their perspective is, uh, I'm gonna do this because

37:39

that is going to elevate me. So it's not about it's usually, you know, we don't factor into the equation.

37:48

Right. Uh, it's just their way of doing things, so that elevates them with total

37:53

disregard how that impacts on others.

37:55

True. And and and and I'm happy you said that because there's so many factors that it

37:59

can impact someone to behave in a bad way.

38:01

And, you know, we we we often also want to and I and I mean, most of

38:05

the times when when a bad manager continuously, um, treats people,

38:09

mistreats people, then definitely there's something of character there.

38:12

Um, but also we should not forget about the environment because, you

38:15

know, environments can also have a huge impact on people's behaviors.

38:19

And so if if toxic environments allow for that behavior to happen, uh, or

38:24

almost promote it in that sense, then of course, that kind of behavior, even if

38:27

you're not of, let's say, quote unquote, um, a bad manager or someone who can,

38:34

you know, who someone who shows a lot of toxic behaviors in the workplace,

38:37

it can actually make you that way.

38:39

Right? So your environment has a huge impact also on how you behave and how you

38:44

treat others, especially because you observe how other people are

38:47

being treated in the organization. Look, and I haven't shared much from my experiences, but I've gone through my fair

38:52

share of of, you know, office politics.

38:56

And, um, and, um, I I consider myself someone who's fairly

39:01

resilient in that perspective. And and because sometimes you are very resilient, you

39:06

take on more than you should.

39:08

And then there comes a point in your in your life that you sit

39:12

down and think about, holy crap. I've actually taken on so much crap actually from certain people

39:18

around me or I've I've allowed certain behaviors to happen.

39:23

And and you don't do anything about it.

39:25

And and then I think that my key takeaway from this is just that watch

39:30

out because it can like you said, it can really hurt you in in the long run.

39:34

And the moment that you address it, that can use it also be

39:37

extremely challenging in itself. But I think it's so important because you stand for what you believe in.

39:42

You stand for your values. And and I think that's equally as important as, you know, identifying it

39:49

and and knowing how to I mean, not only kind of identify but addressing it.

39:56

Because addressing it, even though you can't solve the issue, because then

39:59

sometimes you have to leave and sometimes you can resolve the conflict, but, you

40:03

know, I think I think addressing it. If a lot of people walk away, they're thinking, look, I

40:07

can't do anything about it. It's the kind of helplessness.

40:11

Um, you know, I'm just going to be stung if I do.

40:13

My managers are not going to protect me.

40:15

This environment is not gonna protect me.

40:17

Um, and and even then I would say don't, you know, don't just stand there and be

40:22

the helpless dog sitting in the corner. You know, stand up and say something about it because

40:26

that's saying something about it. Even though you can't address your manager, you can go to an, you know,

40:31

someone in HR or maybe speak to someone else, a confidant or whoever.

40:36

That can e can then give you that perspective of realization because

40:41

you might be so tunnel visioned into your work and your day to day stuff

40:45

that you lose track of what's real.

40:48

And if you continuously are affected by, you know, different, um, negative

40:53

behaviors and toxic environments, then you you lose track of that.

40:57

And I think that's why it's also really important to verbalize it and

41:01

address it because that's equally healing in a sense because it does

41:05

give you that sense of reality. I I couldn't I couldn't agree more.

41:09

Uh, and in fact, something that, um, you you read about earlier that the

41:13

lady that said, well, you know, for 2 years, I just put my head down and

41:16

carry on working like that, all of that.

41:19

I think that, um, what that does, that doesn't resolve the issue, uh, neither

41:24

for you nor for the other people. And what I have found uh, is that if you actually stand up for

41:31

yourself and if you speak out Yeah.

41:34

Um, it resolves the, uh, the issue because other people are behaving.

41:39

Some people, uh, they push the boundaries.

41:42

They all it's like children. They always they always testing to see how far How far you can go from someone.

41:48

It's the same with, uh, bullies.

41:51

You know? They keep they're pushing the boundaries to see how far they can go.

41:55

And if you stand up for yourself, um, then, um, it actually changes behavior.

42:01

Yeah. And I have a good example, uh, actually, of this was actually a a a client who, um,

42:11

sent an email, uh, criticizing negatively criticizing some work that I had done.

42:20

The, um, the the lawyer that was responsible for that, uh, for that

42:29

client, um, sent an email, like, yes.

42:32

You know, it's all my fault. I should have sent.

42:34

I should have done. And then I said, I would like to respond to that email.

42:41

So I responded to the email, and I demonstrated, uh, with the facts and

42:46

the law that I was correct, uh, and I copied everybody on that email.

42:54

Touche. Nobody nobody replied to that email.

42:58

Yeah. The person I addressed it to did not reply to that email.

43:04

And now I I am the lawyer of choice, a go to person, and I am

43:10

loved within their organization. And to me, that just demonstrates that if you stand up for yourself,

43:18

um, believe that you are worthy, that you are value valuable, um, and,

43:29

you know, you stand up for yourself.

43:31

Yeah. You know? Respect respect yourself above above all others because I love that example.

43:37

You can only you can only, and and I use that example in my in conversations

43:43

that I've had with, uh, other lawyers.

43:46

Um, it's like, you know, this is what happened, and it is because, you know,

43:52

it is because I stood up for myself and I demonstrated that you earned

43:57

the respect of other of other people.

43:59

So And but you can also imagine that can be very difficult for people listening

44:04

now, you know, not feeling as confident.

44:07

Um, that that would be hard to do.

44:10

So what would you recommend to people that don't feel as confident?

44:14

What could they do specifically, and how could they address, like, being either

44:19

attacked or bullied or I mean, this is a big topic in a sense, but what would

44:23

you recommend to people that, you know, now who are now listening that don't

44:27

feel that confident to speak up against someone in authority, in a in a manager

44:30

or Well, um, you know, uh, because we we all have our own baggage, as I was going

44:37

about to say earlier, we often react to things rather than respond to things.

44:43

My recommendation is, um, if you even if you're writing an email

44:49

reply, save it in the drafts.

44:53

Document it. Sleep on it. Sleep on it.

44:55

Yeah. Read it in the morning, and then see if you still feel the same way or not.

45:02

Uh, but don't rush, uh, at reacting to something and recognize that

45:07

you are reacting rather than responding to a particular situation.

45:12

And, also, talk to someone within the organization or

45:15

outside of the organization, but someone that you can talk to.

45:20

Um, don't feel that you are alone because Yeah.

45:24

Because you were not we all have you know, I have my own insecurities,

45:28

and and I know where they come from.

45:30

And because of the work that I've done, uh, for example, I can recognize

45:33

when I'm being triggered by a Yeah. By a work environment.

45:37

So, and those triggers are not as strong as they once were.

45:41

Uh, so talk to someone. Talking is really important.

45:43

Absolutely. Yeah. And if maybe maybe what else where you could say is that when when you don't know

45:49

who to talk to, then maybe a good idea is to go and to speak to people that you do

45:54

know and ask them maybe who to speak to.

45:57

And maybe that is also a good advice because not everyone

46:01

always has access to everyone. Um, again, it kind of brings back to validating your own standpoint.

46:07

Am I am I is this real, what I'm experiencing right now?

46:10

Because sometimes, you know, having being put into a very weird situation

46:15

or either abusive situation or, uh, a toxic situation, and if you've never

46:20

had that experience before, your fight or flight kind of kicks in.

46:23

Right? And so a lot of people do freeze, and and and that's unfortunate.

46:29

And I think that's why listening, if they're listening to this

46:31

right now, it kind of gives them those kind of tools of what to do.

46:35

Right? Speak to someone, speak to an HR manager, um, document things.

46:39

I think that's really, really good. Um, and so yeah.

46:42

No. I think that's really good advice. Even if it is just a way of you releasing, uh, that sort of stress.

46:48

Getting it out of your system. Getting it out of your system.

46:51

Yeah. Uh, and, you know, consider consider finding a counselor,

46:57

psychologist, therapy, whatever. Um, we're gonna we're coming to a a closure of, uh, of this podcast.

47:08

Story. Micromanagement.

47:10

I wanted to talk about managers that don't stick to promises, but I think we have to

47:15

have a continuing discussion on this 1.

47:17

Um, so just to wrap up because this course is called Red Flags, Green Flags.

47:22

Um, and we did talk a little bit about good behaviors and bad behaviors,

47:25

but let's just quickly wrap up. What would be for you the 2 biggest red flags in management

47:31

and 2 green flags in management?

47:35

Right. Um, red red flags would be, um, as I've mentioned before, uh, when you you you

47:46

see that you're not given, uh, all the information that you need, for example,

47:51

when you when your manager asks you to do something, but doesn't give you

47:56

clear instructions, um, for example.

47:59

Withholds information. Withholds information, um, because knowledge is power, and I need to

48:04

keep all the information for myself so that I can elevate myself.

48:08

Um, so that that would be 1.

48:12

You wanted 2. Right? Yeah. 1 more.

48:14

1 more. I I can't think of a of of another 1, to be honest.

48:23

But agree uh, that, like, talk about a green flag, and the green flag for me

48:27

would be, uh, someone that if you ask a question, for example, he gives you,

48:34

um, a full, uh, answer and is clear.

48:38

If he doesn't know, I don't know, but you can go some to this other

48:42

place and find and find it there.

48:45

Um, someone that is really not trying to, uh, to hold you back, then Yeah.

48:50

That would be a green flag for me and someone that is That's just a flag.

48:54

Demonstrating demonstrating good management management skills.

48:59

Amazing. Perfect. Thank you so much for, uh, for being here today, Candida, and

49:05

and sharing your experiences. I I was as I was listening to you about your personal stories, and you also

49:11

told me at the same time about your therapy and your own development, did

49:16

this in any way, this conversation speaking to so many people sharing

49:19

your story now knowing that thousands of people are gonna listen to this,

49:22

is this in any way therapeutic to you?

49:25

You know, it is. And recently, I've been listening to, um, podcasts, uh, about, um, you know,

49:34

what people journeys that people go through in their lives, and I found

49:38

that, uh, very helpful for myself.

49:41

So I hope that sharing my experiences, um, that will help other people and

49:48

will resonate with other people and will help them to either understand better

49:53

what is going on in their in their work environment or or even if it is just to go

49:58

and seek help because everyone is valued.

50:03

Uh, everyone, uh, has worth, and, um, they should they should value themselves.

50:10

Fantastic. Candida, thanks again for being on the show, and, um, look forward

50:14

to to meeting up with you again. Thank you very much for having me.

50:17

It's a pleasure. And so for everyone listening, um, right now, so thank you for listening in today,

50:23

and, um, I look forward to having you back in my next episodes where we're gonna

50:28

be talking much more about red flags and green flags at work, about bad management,

50:32

and, of course, about toxic relationships and back starting colleagues.

50:36

That happens a lot. But more importantly, how can we deal effectively with

50:39

difficult situations at work? Because it's so important to our lives and our well-being.

50:44

So much more to come and, uh, look forward to speaking to you then and

50:48

also, uh, having you back on our show. Oh, and last thing that I want to mention, if you're not following me

50:53

yet on social media, um, please do.

50:56

Um, my handle is modern day psychologist on both TikTok and on Instagram.

51:01

And, of course, I will be sharing, um, Candida's, uh, info if you'd

51:05

like to be in contact with her through our socials as well.

51:08

Pleasure. Thank you very much for having me, miss Brina.

51:11

I look forward to seeing you again.

51:13

Fantastic. Are you ready?